AMAZING 308 Subsonic Loads (and fun too)
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2023
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Hornady produces a bullet specifically for subsonic use, the Sub-X. We're trying it in the short barreled 308 Winchester, “Shorty.” Berry’s offers a fine inexpensive bullet as well.
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I have been loading subsonic 308 for a long time... Without trailboss in my country, I choosed a bulky single-based shotgun powder, with a burn rate between alliant's Red and Green Dot. It rises the pressure fast enough to expand the brass and seal the chamber (no gas cames back in my face) and also gives me a low speed variation and low standart deviation. And a double charge of this powder will not blow up my rifle!
Forget slow rifle powders... Keep it for standart loads!
What powder do you use? Thanks
@@Paul-45-70, I use a brazilian made powder called "CBC #219", with 8.0gr for 144gr bullets.
I belive that ANY fast and LOW DENSITY shotgun powder works! Just be extra carefull with double charges... And never use spherical double-based powders, to avoid secondary detonation.
In my case, a double charge will give me about 1500fps and high pressure, but as I sad, it will not blow up my rifle!
@@samuel-JF1981 thank you for the reply. I’m in Australia so I’ll see if we have something like it.
@@Paul-45-70I use VV N32C With great success in my 308 together with SUB-X 190gr.
can you share your complete load data? and rifle details?
@@ahns1170
TrailBoss has been impossible to source. I hope it comes back one day
I certainly hope so as well.
Its discontinued from my understanding
@@offense51 I heard it wasn't discontinued but nevertheless none has been produced in two years.
Definitely been discontinued
I wish you were my neighbor@@UserAccountID
I read about an Englishman who was developing subsonic .308 back in the 90's.
He developed an accurate round at just below sonic velocities.
Then, out of interest, he loaded the bullet so that it was travelling backwards out of the cartridge. He said that this loading, with the same bullet, travelling backwards and using the same powder load, now had a velocity above the speed of sound.
It was supposed to be fully featured in the second part of his magazine article but I never found a copy. I think, from memory it was called Shooting Sports.
I think his name was Bruce Potts.
But I may be wrong.
Very informative video. The 308 Winchester's performance in a wide range of uses is something I always find interesting.
Discreet ballistics has great expanding subsonic 308 loads if anyone is looking for an off the shelf solution.
I've been pondering sub loads in 308 Win recently so this was very interesting. Cartridges come and go but I have a feeling that 308 Win will still be quite popular many years from now. Thanks for the video.
I love watching your channel. Shorty is something I'd love to have in Missouri. Cheers!
I basically cloned the 168gr Winchester Suppressor Subsonic with 168gr Hornady ELD-M bullets, 10gr of Trail Boss and a light crimp. It still stays subsonic in subzero temps for me and I figured out my DOPE and can still hit a target consistently at 200yds but my hold is 26MOA high with my rifle zeroed for 200yds with 149gr M80 ball.
I load 15gn of 4895 with the 190 sub x projectiles. They seem even quieter than the recommended 13.3. Ridiculous accuracy out to 75m using my cheap Ruger predator. Its the perfect load for a knock around tractor gun on our farm.
Thanks for the fantastic videos.
I need to mess with that H4895 load a bit.
I love that you said “tractor gun”!
Love the quip about cop's loving donuts! Looks like some useful loads that would be fun to shoot.
Thank you for the awesome gun video brother.
Very nice presentation. Been thinking about making a "shorty" truck gun something like this out of an old Mauser action. Thanks for the loading dope.
.223 subsonic.
60gr hard cast with gas check.
3.5gr TrailBoss.
CCI small rifle primer.
1060fps.
Far surpasses .22lr at longer range "200 yards" on drop and energy.
Don't let anyone tell you it's just a .22lr when loading subsonic .223 !
Heavy crimp helps also.
Love trailboss powder but havent seen it in 3 years. Came up with a clays subsonic load with 168s…very fun and accurate
I like Trail Boss for subsonic. We have found that using magnum primers seems to make a more consistent burn especially for cases that are not full.
We load a 150 grain Hornady FML/BT with 9.4 grains of trail boss for a light subsonic load. Case fill is only 69%
And a 180 grain Hornady SST with 11.0 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 90%
And 190 grain Hornady Sub-X with 11.6 grains Trail Boss with a case fill of 84%
Obviously the better the case fill the more consistent the burn.
Glad to see Guy again!
Thanks!
I actually load Sub 308 with trailboss and 190 grain Lehigh maximum expansion and it opens up over an inch in diameter and penetrates 13 inches in 20% gel and it makes the sub X look like a FMJ compared lol
Cool!
@@guyminer3168 they are obviously twice the price but I was shooting them out a 22 inch barrel so even without a suppressor it's in the 22 LR range of noise
I load subsonic .308 with load data I found in the hogdon 2023 loading manual. Data suggests a 168g Sierra HPBT loaded with only 8 grains of hogdon titegroup. giving a total velocity of 1080fps and chamber pressures @ 2500 CUP. Don’t really have a use for them other than plinking around with a suppressor. which I found to be pretty fun when hitting steel is louder than the gun itself
I messed around with a load with the 190sub-x and 4895. I ended up dialing up the powder charge and sat the velocity at 1050. It shoots pretty well and ES improved with the added velocity, as well as the sooty mouth went away.
That's my next step, bump up the powder charge a bit with the H4895.
Don't know why they didn't put in the effort to develop this load properly for the video.
Great topic and fun to shoot subs. 450 Bushmaster, 395 Hornady sub x, Trail Boss and Rem 7 1/2 primer. Very good results from bolt action rifle (not sure if it'll cycle a semi). Since subsonic is limited velocity the only way to get more power is bullet weight. The 450 creates 1000 ft lbs at the muzzle so much like a 44 Mag.
Would love to hear from Hodgdon about the status of Trail Boss
Always solid information well presented from you Guy. Unfortunately I just discovered the joy of Trail Boss and of course they quit making it forthwith. Have been playing with cast bullets at subsonic speeds for years. Lots of fun and a few good applications for quiet small game hunting or putting down big game when a full power load isn't required.
Shoot without the suppressor at first to avoid possible keyholing. Drill out the flash holes a tad. Use some quality large rifle magnum primers. Lube up those projectiles with some bacon grease. Make sure the first rounds actually leave the barrel to avoid embarrassment at the dinner table. Enjoy!
Great video, been wanting to make a load like this for my scar 17
Good stuff Guy!!🤘🏼🤟🏽👍🏼
I like the idea of a subsonic 308 more than a 300 BLK. Both will obviously suppress well but 308 is going to have way better options when you need to go supersonic
I thought that too until I actually did it. If you want to go subsonic, get a blackout. 308 just doesn't have enough twist for practical subsonic use and it makes Trailboss or Tin Star a must.
@@mab0852 good point. You’d need a custom rifle and then at that point the practicality/budget friendly option is out the window
Smarter everyday did the 2 bullets video where they shot reduced loads and found the lower powder inconsistency problem just like you had. It played havoc with their speeds and point of impact.
Guy, try some large pistol primers with the Trail Boss. They may drop the SDs' even lower. They did in my M-70 with it's 1 in 8" twist. My barrel is 18.5" long.
Thanks for the tip!
My preferred load in my Tikka T3X Tac A1 .308 is Lapua GB552 OTM scenar-L 155gr bullet with Vectan A0 powder. Delivers 1 minute groups at 100m and perfect for goose hunting.
Ha! Here I'd go to jail if I used a rifle for goose hunting!
Pity Trailboss is non-existent and no longer produced by ADI.
In Kalifornia, we’re forced to use non lead for hunting. Current .22lr non lead absolutely sucks. I’ve had fantastic success with Blue Dot and Hornady 35gr NTX loads in reduced .223. 9gr of blue dot gets me between 22mag and 22 hornet velocity without the noise of a full power .223. This is from a 24” Remington 700 PSS 1-12 twist. Very consistent and ground squirrels out to 200yds are in trouble. I hand trickle the charge as an extra caution.
Look up a guy that goes by Seafire on 24hr campfire. He’s done a lot of testing with reduced .223 blue dot loads
Great info, thanks!
I think the trail boss works so well because it fills the case at least more than half. Meaning that the powder is more or less consistently laying in the cartridge every time you shoot it. Other powders don’t fill the case and so the powder could be at the back of the case or the front of the case or evenly spread across the case every time you pull the trigger And you’re going to get a different ignition from the primer from shot to shot. I have been looking for trail boss for five years and have never seen it available.
Use a case filler for low charges
Cream-of-wheat!
Redot//Promo has long been a subsonic powder. Higher VD and not position sensitive.
This guys is the Bob Ross of reloading. Sounds just like him.
Thank you,sir
I use the Berry’s 220’s over 10gr of IMR4227 in 300blk, makes a good subsonic plinking round.
Would love to see you try the Lapua 200 gr fmj subsonic specifically made for sub shooting.
A few years ago I wanted to buy a rifle in .300BLK to shoot subsonic ammunition. However, since I have a rifle in .308Win and an excellent MP 311 - 180 SIL GC Hollow Point 3 cavity mold, with which I cast excellent bullets (which I then plastic-coat) and also have Mr. Brömel's Quick Load internal ballistics program on my computer, I tried it out a bit. My MagnetoSpeed velocity measuring device was of course indispensable.
Today, I can load ammunition quite precisely, which compares well with what is shown here in the video. In Germany, hunting roe deer, wild boar or stag with it is prohibited because the bullet, which must have a diameter of at least 6.5mm, must therefore have a velocity of 1476 lbs. at 100m. But it's great fun to shoot and I didn't buy a .300Blk because it can't do anything better than my .308Win.
I had major trouble getting hold of Trail Boss powder here in NZ so instead gave some Lil Gun a nudge - it is the ducks nuts. 9.7gr of Lil Gun pushing a Hornady 190gr Sub-X projectile with Sako cases & Federal magnum primers gives me 1020fps ÷/- 9-ish fps at 350m ASL in my Ruger American Predator. No issues with lack of bulk, & they are a very handy round to have tucked away for those shots you don't want the neighbours to hear.
How's this load holding up for you? Still like the lil gun powder for subs? Also have you used lil gun with lighter loads like 150gn?
Finally!!! Feedback I can apply!! Thank you
Great content (as always). I'm using a 110-grain Hornady spitzer pushed by 11.3 grains of IMR 4198; plop out around 1075...
Really cool to see this type of interesting niche info. This is right up there with sub 223. Of course they're terrible at most things, but there's a few specific applications where this is exactly the right move. Super cool to see...
Like what? You do know a .223 isn't that much larger then a .22 right? What gives the .223 the advantage is the exact thing you take away if you go subsonic. Therefore the ammo and gun are heavier but serving no purpose to any application.
@@Drak976Having the ability to reload and experiment is a hobby for many to see the results .
You known, sometimes you feel like a nut , sometimes you don’t . 😀
@@Drak976 Yeah I forget they made 77gr 22 LR Roll eyes
@@Drak976Here is the advantage:
I load .223 subsonic with trailboss and 62 gr hollow point bullets. This combination is only used for close up shots at small varmints like racoons around our hog feeders. Also, the rifle is a Ruger bolt action with a can and a thermal scope.
So with a quick magazine change and switching shot profile on the scope, I can go from subsonic .223 HP to supersonic .223 HP in a few seconds. All done with the same gun in the middle of a field in the dark.
The supersonic rounds are very effective at killing hogs while the subsonic works great and is extremely quiet for varmints.
Loading 30-06 with 100 gr speer to 1500 fps. Talk about no recoil😂
More accurate than expected. Good way to take out the 30-06 and just plink and have fun
I’m loading 6.5 CM subsonic with Hornady 160 gn round nose Interlock with Trailboss. My CM has a 7 twist. Works great. And of course .300 BO with berrys and A1680. Would love to have a prefit .300 BO for my savage action.
I use the lee 180 grain .309 cast bullet with 8.5 grains of trail boss, decent accuracy and very quiet.
I coincidently am doing a similar project. Just had a shaw 16.25" in 1:8 put on my old Rem 788. Also just went to range this morning testing IMR4895 at 13.6, 13.3, 13.0. My SD's were all in to 20s as well and had one in each 5 round group come up much lower than rest. Ended up with 1022, 1018 and 928 FPS avg.
Feral pig control with IR scope at night. At 50 m several pigs down before they spook.
I load subsonics for 7.62x39. 10.5" AR.
I've actually never had much trouble cycling using CFE BLK
I have loaded 308 subsonics with 7gr of vihtavuori n320 with 160 grain round nose bullets. They are quite accurate but tend to drop quite a bit at a 100 yards.
i do the same 9.5 gn N320 ,200gn Lapua Subsonic and muron LR magnum primer , 300meter no problem travels @ 1060 fps out of a 20 inch Tikka
We like trail boss and thank you for the video.❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤.
180gr peregrine sub sonic bullets 1 gr cotton wool filler and 10gr MP 200 pistol primer. Bullet expand to 25mm in animals
I’ve had great success with the Hornady 170 gr. .307 diameter with 9.5 Trailboss.
Recommend working down to subsonic to avoid a bullet stuck in the barrel
I got lucky and snapped up two big containers of trail boss, currently shooting .308 8 twist, 194 Lehigh over 13.6g TB for 1060fps, using Redding dry lube and a neck expanding die gets my SDs into single digits, a lot of brass prep and measuring but a lot of fun too
can use 30 carbine bullets, makes great rabbit rounds... made them for years (edited for info: 110gr round nose plated, 10grs trail boss, 2.421 COAL, 1100 fps.)
Have been hoping to load both of these for .300 black and, why not .308. Hopefully by the end of the month.
I made some after seeing people shoot pigs/hogs with 308 subs. With no crack it doesn't scare away the herd so you get more shots at them. I couldn't get trail boss so used Unique with the poly stuff you get in pillows to fill the case which burns up on firing. I made some with different grains and tested them from high to low till the crack was gone, from memory it was 8 grains which was the winner. In an 18 inch barrel. The barrel has a10 twist and all made a normal hole not sideways through the target at 100.
Now if only you could get the Trailboss powder.
Would be nice if you featured a quick burning and fluffy powder that wasn't absolutely unobtainium.
Hogdon titegroup and 168g Sierra HPBT for .308 is subsonic also at 1080 fps
I use titegroup or titewad, but always remember it can be explosively volatile for rifle cartridge use. A little goes a LONG way.
Is Trail Boss ever gona be sold again?
@@Skip356 Same in my area. Haven’t seen it in a while.
@@elplebon45have you verified this with the 8.0 grain load published by Hodgdon? I just tried that from a 20" Barrel and they were hitting the target sideways. I may need to bump the charge slightly.
My favorite and cheap sub load, .223, 55 gr SP, 3.1-3.2 gr of TiteGroup. Stupid quiet in .30 cal can on a Ruger Ranch Rifle(16"). Stand a few feet from a empty aluminum can, pull the trigger and the can doesn't move, just a clean hole through. Great for young shooters.
Try annealing the case necks to dead soft, and thinning by neck turning.
Well, after watching this video, I did some testing myself, inspiration for my daughter to go deer hunting, then Dad the handloader, got to work.
BENCHMARK was the powder I found. other powders listed were not available
I got some really nice tight groups at 50 yards
BENCHMARK 13.4 start load, Best performance in the gel block had 22-24 inches of penetration, 1100 fps Average, with a charge if 16.8 grains, and using a gas gun with an 18 inch barrel
i dig the hornady 220 interlock round nose for subs.
300 black out I sub x and steel ram powder awesome load for ground hogs quiet as mouse farther with hyperion and cva scout tried the all copper subsonic bullets and they aren't to swift shoot good but like all copper bullets they have a hard time killing instantly even ground hogs they will run from 80 percent of the body shots even with the 194 fracturing bullet but the sub x really thumps when it hits em super accurate I shot ground hogs out to 160 with some Kentucky windage best thing is they don't know your shooting at em till you hit to close or there dead lol
Try magnum primers, my group closed up. and speed were more consistent.
Tried some data I had from hodgdon years ago, Titegroup, didn't have a chronograph at the time, had a Mil Dot scope, 100 yards believe i had to come up 2.5 mil dots, to impact 100 yards center
When adding a suppressor to a rifle that already has a good,safe,accurate load, is it necessary to start over on load development? Just wondering if the suppressor changes pressure or accuracy. Great videos!
I have been loading 308 with Trail Boss for a few years now. I use it for wild hog bunting. But I have not been able to find any Trail Boss for a couple of years now. I was really hoping they would start making it again but so far nothing.
Right. I'm looking for alternatives. There are some that seem interesting.
Wondered if I could load up some .223 sub loads for close quarter fox around sensitive areas. Got me thinking now.
Great results with the trail boss by the way.
Hodgdon has load data for that !!
Please make a follow up video with 4895 charge increased and another powder that We can actually buy. Maybe CFE Black? Thank You in advance.
Iam using 2207 11.5 grains with a 168 zombie max. But iam using wading. Work okay so far.
I've been loading 225gr subs for 308 ar10 with h4895 for a few years now. Just came across Hodgdon's subsonic load data and am going to try accurate 5744 since h4895 is becoming so hard to find. Couldn't get my semi to cycle with Trail boss.
Titegroup works very well in subsonic rifle loads.
Interesting! Thank you.
I worked up a load for my 30-30 using Titegroup and 135 grain coated bullets. 1000 fps, spread was less than 30 fps (and I tried tipping the rifle up then down before firing, Titegroup is position-insensitive). It would be possible to put six of the charge weight I settled on, ya gotta be careful.
Check the AR the second edition AR reloading handbook it has subsonic data for 300 black and 308. if you look it up trail Boss has a PDF that explains that has all their load data from 223 I've seen it all the way up to 4570.
We've used Trail Boss in several different cartridges, including the 45-70, just haven't published all of our work with it yet. I sure hope it returns to the shelf eventually. It's too good a powder to lose. There are of course alternatives.
I just did a test [1/11-2024] with the Sub-X 175gr in my Tikka 308, using around 6.8-7.0gr of Titegroup [Max @ 8.5gr on Hodgdon's website].
Yes, it has a bullet drop like a 22LR [around 16.0" @ 100 yds per BC], and a recoil level of the same.
I find it to be a very good training round for working holdover etc. and Zero wind impact vs. the 22LR
Got around a 1/2" group over 2x5 shoots @ 50yds, with fps range of 1065 - 107 fps w. a SD @ 11.0.
My normal Zero are for 200yds w. 150gr FMJ_BT @ 2800fps, so I had to adjustment for the drop delta for + 4.0" [0.5' vs. 4.5"] @ the 50yd line., and it will be over +12" delta @ 100 yds ..................which will be at the next range visit
I use Lapua cases, the CCI or Winchester Large Rifle Primers in my stainless 20" Tikka_CTR
Are they still making Trail Boss? A while back I saw a letter from Hodgdon saying it was temporarily discontinued or something.
I reload for both 308 and 300 lackout subsonic with the same bullets.
What twist rate are you running?
I'd be interested to see how a bulkier powder that burns more slowly might produce more consistency in speed and accuracy. How about Pyrodex or triple 7? Might be interesting to see.
I trying to load some subsonic 308. However, I have been unable to locate the powders mentioned. I was able to locate some Benchmark which Hodgdon had load data for with that round. Unfortunately the 13.4 grains that they had is definitely not subsonic. Without a chronograph I’m not sure how low to go.
Suggestions??
300BO 10gr 1680 powder 150gr bullet around 1076 fps fun plinker
What bottom metal is on this rifle and is that an arca rail in front of it?
Not sure if there is enough ass for deer with subs im sure it would pass thru but probably not a great option definitely gonna try it this year and I bought a bunch of junk Barnes cheap on midway pulled bullets and used primed 300 blackout cases they are cheap and working great
Ya, I intend on continuing to hunt deer and more with full power loads, as always.
I want to wack a coyote with a sub.
Atomic ammo make an accurate .308 sub, not great for hinting though.
I've been loading the Sub-X in .308 175 gr. bullets. It takes 11.4 grs of Trail Boss to get around 1050fps, which is considerably more than the 10.5 grs used here for the heavier 190 gr Sub-X. I'm not sure how to explain this, except my rifle has a 22 in barrel and 1:10 twist. I might try the 190 gr, but without the suppressor until I can verify stability. I wonder how much Trail Boss powder it will take. All of the various loads I have tried are extremely temperature sensitive (both air temp and barrel temp).
I would like to load a 308 down to 30-30 performance. Short range shooting. Any safe suggestions? 😊
Oh man trail boss! I tried to grab it through the screen! It's not being manufactured anymore :(
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. I only have 2 1/2 bottles left. I guess there is less demand with the advent of .300
At 11:08 when you say that you could get a double charge with H4895... yeah, you could get a triple charge and still be ok. You'd be cooking along at around 2,400 fps, which would defeat the purpose of this video, but you'd be safe since that is well within the safe range for supersonic loads with 190 grain bullets.
H4895 is awfully forgiving of that sort of charge isn't it?
@guyminer3168, well, H4895 and IMR-4895 are the "go to" powders for reloading 308 for the M1A/M14, so the thing that amazes me the most is that it reliably ignites with such a low charge as used in this video.
@@DocJustinT - it's pretty amazing stuff. I wondered myself, but Hodgdon provides that data, and I figure they know what they're doing.
I get better results with much lower pressures by using reduced charges of 4895 rather than tiny loadings of high pressure Titegroup or Titewad. Trail boss is ok, just very dirty. What have y’all observed?
Lee mold makes some great subsonic bullets, isn’t trail boss discontinued?? Anyway 2 bottles left on my shelf 👍🏼
✌🏼😎👍🏼
I'm going to go back and work some more on that H4895 load... I think it can do much better with a little more powder. We shall see. I sure hope Trail Boss shows up again someday, it's good stuff for some applications.
The powder companies recommend that the Trail boss should fill the case at least 70%. With the slower burning powders the use of some sort of filler or packer (to keep the powder charge back against the primer) is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED, especially if you are likely to be shooting slightly down-hill. However, the use of a packer can cause problems if you have a suppressor fitted to the rifle. I am surprised that -for serious liability reasons - this was not mentioned in the video. Hence, for 308win sized cartridges it's best to stick with trail boss for your subsonic loads, and used proper dedicated subsonic bullets like Lehigh Defense for best performance, and also to minimise the chance of them sticking in the bore.
That's old news
I built a 6 dasher on one of those actions
I'd imagine that's quite a shooter. :) Great cartridge.
unfortunately I believe hodgdon is discontinuing trailboss. Really sucks cause thats one of my favorite powders
At your elevation, where is supersonic in fps?
300blk before it was cool
I have shot out to 400 yards at a 22lr match and scored impacts. Why not with subsonic 308? Same speed, higher bc, what am I missing?
Do they have subsonic load for 222 Remington
I haven't, but I'd imagine the 240 grain SMK or 250gr hornady a tip subs out of my 30-06 could be neat
Kinda what I figured what would happen with H4895. I’ll be keeping it for supers
I think that I'll mess with that load a bit and see if I can get some better results. But ya, H4895 is a great old powder for conventional loads.
@@guyminer3168 if you have any better luck let us know. H4895 is easier to get than trailboss but if it’s super dirty and not all that consistent I’ll hold out for the proper stuff
W231 - reduced .308 load testing
MP .311 Sledgehammer Reduced Load Test - 1229 FPS
ua-cam.com/video/9PWSlczdhAQ/v-deo.html
Get some.
I’m about to explore sub sonic lever action rounds like 3030 and 44 magnum
The 44 and other conventional handgun rounds are easy to load subsonic, they're close already! Heavier bullets are helpful, but the loads have been developed. We don't happen to have a 44 levergun here at UR, yet. The 357 Henry we do have is a hoot with 38 Special ammo - most of which is subsonic even in factory ammo.
I have loaded subsonic 30-30 with Trail Boss for fun suppressed plinking!