Narcissists don't like it when you're being yourself and developing your own personality because they only "love" you if you allow them to manipulate you. They basically see you as a puppet with strings. Yes, they think they own you!
Idk but I'm kinda being jealous from ppl who have their own personalities to the point I just become mean to them or noticed my thoughts directly going to how do I win my control over them when I feel I lost control of everything and I'm really inscure but try to look the best even if it means being alone is that narcissism?
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix IMAGO Safe People by Henry Cloud Emotional Intimacy by Robert Masters Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman The Hoffman Process by John and Julie Gottman The Untethered Soul by Micheal Singer
having narcissistic parents is such a trip... The first hurdle is getting over the cognitive dissonance and putting the blame for their abusive treatment back with its rightful owner, (and goodluck with that) because they always lead you to believe that the way they mistreated you was your fault. The blatant hypocrisy of how they always want you to 'be responsible', and yet they evade responsibility at every chance they get. Parentification sucks..
My mother was a overt narc, I’m 56 and spent some twenty years in and out of therapy. But most therapist don’t understand narcissism they’d just look at me with a stoic expression as though I was just angry and unforgiving. Few times while describing some of my mothers cruelty to my therapist, my teeth would chatter, I was in my forties then and still scared of my mother. That women really frightened me. I suffered with Post traumatic stress most of my life. I did the no contact too (trying to protect my heart and mind) but I was the only child so eventually I’d get drawn back into the drama. She’s dead now, but I tell you ......it was like living with a terrorist! She was always out to get me! She was never my friend. I could never trust my own mother.
Reading your comment, I felt so very understood. I really, really feel for you. I'm very sorry for everything that was done to you. Likewise, I've been in therapy on and off for about 4 years and I still feel like I am making little to no headway in repairing the damage done to my mind and soul. It makes me very discouraged seeing how very long and arduous it has been to heal from this. I will keep you in my mind and prayers that you will find healing and peace, friend. All the best.
It’s weird being in a war in your own home with your own parents. My Mom is definitely covert and my dad might be. I only realized this recently in my late twenties. Luckily I’ve been able to start winning some battles now that I know it’s war. I certainly don’t win every time but I’m getting better everyday. I really need to go no contact though. All that said I’ve heard that Chris Voss (FBI agent who literally negotiated with terrorists) has some skills and strategies in his book that are profoundly effective with narcs.
I almost became/or I was a narcissist. When someone set boundaries, had other things to do, didn't think I was a god, I was (usually privately) enraged. I wanted revenge (fortunately never pursued it). I felt that I'd been shunned by the world, malignantly cast out into an indifferent universe, murdered. Eventually I grew to find my dramatic reactions funny and absurd. I'd grown competent in my own interests and understood (duh!) that others, like me, had plans and pursuits and other obligations. I'm a little frightened to think I may have ended up locked into such an odd, narrow prison, had I not gained some perspective. Today, other people's autonomy from me allows me more freedom and makes me feel less alone than I would have had I gone the narcissism route. Making others into mere props of the self is incredibly lonely, like a child playing with toy soldiers by himself all day for years.
Im glad you wrote this. So often you only hear one side of the story, painting them as evil - don't get me wrong, narcissists certainly can be evil - but I think it's difficult to listen to that perspective and think "oh, that sounds like me!". What i mean is it must be hard for narcs to recognize it within themselves.. it takes a lot of strength to do what you did. It also helps me understand what is going on in their heads a lot better. More power to you :)
It's tough because you know your parents had to have been raised in a hellscape to become this way, but they also are responsible for their actions. For them to come to middle age and still not have addressed it leads you to think they really are bad people.
Love the fact that you’ve survived two narcissistic parents and can talk about this to us! I had one narcissistic parent and still suffer a lot at the age of 42! Still trying to heal......thankyou for sharing 😍
My mom was/is a narcissist. She used to ditch me at stores and places all the time sometimes for hours at a time and started when I was 6. I didn't realize until I became an adult that she did this because she was hoping I would get abducted or something would happen to me. Most people I have known that are narcissist are the type where they portray themselves as perfect and so generous, but in actuality they are very selfish, manipulative and cruel. A narcissist doesn't love anyone because they can only love themselves.
Omg, Ive never seen anyone experience the same thing! My mom also used to constantly "lose" me in stores. It was so frustrating, my 5 year old self used to think my mom was just dumb and I would yell at her that shes supposed to not leave me alone. I always felt she resented me and had disgust and contempt towards me but she never admits to it because then that would make her a Bad Mom, like her mom. Im sorry you endured that crap too.
I’ve heard narcs can experience love but it’s a muted numbed version of what someone with empathy would experience. At least that’s what a self proclaimed NPD diagnosed person said. I think the love they express is more rooted in fear and so isn’t really love at all.
Had a number of narcissistic teachers. Not adoring them meant they would go on a personal and public vendetta against you. And they often got the rest of the class on their side.
The idea of having kids still terrifies me because I have always suspected that I actually may be one of these people myself - I take up a lot of space...and the thought of suffocating a young life disgusts me.
My father too was overt and my mother covert. No one understands why I walked away from my mother. Your video on leaving your parents helped me begin that journey in 2017. Stay being you Daniel. It’s a hard world to live in if you believe in individual freedom and expression and value every individual as equal.
Jeez. My mom trying to win over my friends by being cool is something I had never detected as narcissistic behaviour but... touché. On top of that, she was a high school teacher who could really force this persona by being helpful and patient with those who struggled (the more broken the kid's family was, the more she'd support them). She was also incredibly fun in class. Needless to say everyone wished they had such a cool mum as mine...
Oh my goodness I keep brushing off my mom being a narc but she did that and still does that with my friends... And she is so nice to them and will never do those things for me. So everyone around me never believes me that she can be so insane....
I breathed a sigh of relief when my mother passed. Then I felt guilty for feeling relief! Ugh! It's a lifelong battle and one that you have to constantly work through even if they're dead and gone!! Thank you for sharing this with all of the survivors of this crazy mental illness!!
I have a deep-seated respect for anyone who's managed to survive a narcissistic household I've experienced a Covert-Narc back when I was dating a girl before her mask slipped off and I realised what she really was, luckily I realised just barely 3 months into the relationship, I managed to get away unscathed (It was absolutely horrible, but there wasn't really anything that took a long time to heal from, given that we'd only known each other during those 3 months) , when I read stories of people recalling their own experiences with Narcs it makes my heart weep for them having dated a Narc was such an awful experience, though luckily I was able to escape, but having to be raised by a Narc? as your parent?, oh dear God, I wouldn't wish something like that on my worst enemy To anyone else who's had to suffer at the horrendously uncaring nature of a narcissist: Stay strong, you're perfect as you are. The very essence of you is inherently worthy of love. You don't need to contort yourself into something you're not in order to attain validation and acceptance, you just simply being yourself makes you beyond good enough to be worthy of all the love you could ever desire from a loved one. You are enough.
I am not sure If i dated covert narc, but I have my suspicions. This isalso related to me being raised by one - so its partially my fault for not seeing this clearly at the beggining. I was just given some stuff back when I gave alot of love and attention first. I think she was deeply hurt as a child, but its not my job now to parent her and fix her, so I just stopped doing the loving, becouse I started to feel resentful. Narcissist or how you call them are not there to get you. In my case it was just repeating pattern of my mother, WHO was really the covert narcissist. And back then I was victim who was completely dependent on her and didnt had a choice. I still wish this girl the best, but she needs to do the steps to heal.
The last paragraph almost made me tear up. I’m 21 and recently I had a girlfriend - first romantic relationship as an adult - that was so kind and caring to me that she reminded me of what I forgot: that I am inherently worthy of real love and care. After some reflection, I think I realized that I am a narcissist. I do see people in terms of what I can get from them and I find myself not caring so much about their emotions and how I may be hurting them. Maybe the first step to becoming less narcissistic is acknowledging that I have many narcissistic qualities. I only wonder how I became a narcissist. Genetics? Feeling like no one really cares about me and listens to me? Trauma from teenage years? Being spoiled as a child, at least in terms of material possessions? The way my parents raised me and how they behaved? I don’t know.
@@JohnSmith-cg3cv it’s hard to recognize and accept one’s own flaws so I think it’s courageous of you to say this about yourself. As far as causes and solutions, doing honest work with an empathetic therapist is probably your best option. It’s extremely helpful to gain an unbiased view from a knowledgeable and experienced therapist to continue improving oneself and overcoming flaws and consequences of life experiences.
Yes, this! Both covert and overt narcissists can be craftily manipulative. The difference between a covert and overt narcissist is the grandiosity - an overt narc is grandiose - but a covert narc is introverted and their grandiosity is hidden. It’s not visible. Which can make it very difficult to identify them - especially if they are also hidden about their abusiveness. But both covert and overt narcs can use hidden forms of abuse. It’s important to know the difference as otherwise a lot of covert narcs go under the radar because of that lack of grandiosity.
Oh my goodness.......for the first time in my life, I feel totally understood. Both my parents were narcs. This video explains so much about what it was like for me dealing with very selfish, emotionally stunted parents! Thanks so much.
Most people that received trauma by narcissists may not realise that going through that they may have unconsciously acquired narcissist traits themselves. Therefore, the part of the healing process is also doing away with narcissist parts in you. Talking from my personal journey. _"The best revenge is not to be like your enemy."_ - *Marcus Aurelius*
It's not that bad if you can catch yourself it's not like you'll develop the full blown pathology because that starts at a really young age most people have to worry more about becoming borderline or codependent as a reaction I'm undiagnosed borderline after trauma
My parents are narcissists who are frequently angry because I refuse to act as their puppet to play according to their script. One day I finally wake up and realise what I survived from. Now I still dreamed of them as sticky black monsters in my nightmares, I think that's who they really are.
My sister, who is 4 years older than me is a covert and she would do the same growing up. I would bring friends over and she would seduce them away, then because they were being accepted by an older “cool kid” and did not have an older sister of their own would turn against me. In later years being around my sister felt like being around someone trying to use me, redirect all my energy towards them and neglect my own needs. I don’t even talk to her anymore. She tried to use my father’s passing to get me on the phone but I did not take the bait. I know it sounds bad that I would not talk to her over a common significant loss but it was one that we all knew could happen anytime over the past decade so it was not unexpected. If my grief was spread out over several years than so may hers have been and therefore the recent loss was bittersweet in that he is no longer suffering and in the afterlife with those who went before. Anyway, I consider my sister someone who does not have my best interest in mind and I don’t have time for her meddling or other BS, my hard fast rule about her is zero contact.
Mine was the same way and I have been no contact since 2016. There is no other way to deal with them. I do find myself remembering the good times now and then and I will miss her but I remind myself how horrible she was in between those times and it keeps me away!!
hi Daniel! my mother is also covert narcissist. I have found out it recently and I do not talk to her any more. I saw how toxic she were and how devious her actions and words were. She was trying to ruin my life and my soul (for no reason).
it took me 50 yrs to uncover my uncle that had abused me since i was 4 yo, covert can be very tricky and deceiving, his favorite role was that of a victim, but u r right Daniel i finally started to pay attention to the way i felt after being around him and thats when i realized that he was very toxic and i first informed him that he was hurting me with the things he was saying/doing and then they got worse, so i pulled away and then the mask came off and boy was it nasty what i saw, an enraged nasty child, anyway i no longer talk with that side of the family cuz they are all highly damaged narcs, i tried so long and so hard to get them to love me and i finally came to the very very painful realization that they never would because they r uncapable of loving, very sad... but i do have truckloads of love in me its just hard to let it out most the time
Thank you I was parentified only child. My father was so sneaky being so mean to me. No one truly sees a narcs cruelty, they just say “oh you’re overreacting “ To this day I feel misunderstood, alone, and not heard.
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix IMAGO Safe People by Henry Cloud Emotional Intimacy by Robert Masters Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman The Hoffman Process by John and Julie Gottman The Untethered Soul by Micheal Singer
Children can see hypocrisy without even trying. My mother has always been a soulless monster to me (now also to my son), cold like an ice queen with tongue like a sword. And yet she's been playing a role of mother Teresa imppecably before her friends, neighbours and all family members. She is considered saint (without exaggeration) by all who know her. My father, also a narcissist, used to beat me up really hard to satisfy HER needs. She would always set him up against me to take pleasure in him "punishing" me. They are both monsters. I don't think I hate anyone more than I hate her. I'm happy my brother sees things as I do, although he was her golden child.
Great video - Thank You. I had a mother like yours and it was a Nightmare and so Damaging. Covert Narcissists are Insidiously Abusive. They are stealthy, sneaky and manipulative. They undermine your perceptions - you as a person. Best to go No Contact with these Deadly and Dangerous People. I have a lot of Empathy for Children of Narcissistic Parents. It's Tragic what they go through.
i happen to know my parents' background and the backgrounds of aunts uncles, great aunts uncles, great grandparents etc etc. they lived in poverty, they were emotionally abused. my mother told me she would wet her pants when she heard her step dad come home from work. her step dad was put into an orphanage because his parents had too many children to take care of. my father's mother killed my father's self esteem. my parents checked out completely and abandoned me physically and emotionally. i became stuck as an infant, a seven yr old and a very very angry and resentful teen ager. i played out my life by reacting to life situations in the way of 3 age groups. an infant is needy because they know their life depends on their parents. a seven year old is manipulative and the teen ager blames everything bad in life on her parents. i went to therapy and allowed myself to feel the deep pain and fear. i felt the powerlessness of the 7 year old. i screamed and blamed my parents. all in front of a compassionate witness. after years of crying, punching pillows and feeling powerless, i took responsibility for myself. i was able to see my parents' pain, fear and feelings of powerlessness. i changed and i realize i don't need them and that i don't need to carry their pain for them anymore. i can be with them now and see them as fellow humans who hurt and who lost the ability to love because love was not mirrored to them as little babies. that clears the road to compassion for myself and my parents. it's hard work. i think working to see our parents' suffering is important in the healing process but the way to get there is to let yourself hate and blame as long as needed.
I relate to the part about friends. My mum would get close to my friends and help them out financially and so if i ever needed to vent about my mum to my friends, it would become very awkward. It was like she used this "help" as insurance. Im not going to let future friendships be sabotaged this way
Every time I watch your videos I discover that we do have the same exact parents. This is the first time I hear my own story/struggle with my family in a very authentic way. Thank you so much
Your experience with your mother stealing your friends helped me realize that my mom did the same thing with all my relationship. And because of that i just ended up giving up at forming relationships with other people, so they wouldn't be corrupted in any way.
I’ve been studying narcissism for yrs and I’m a therapist as well. You just blew my mind and I just had so many realizations. My Dad was overt and my mom was a sneaky covert lunatic. They attacked me of all siblings because I was my own person. Thank you so much my friend! Do you do coaching or anything like that?
It's so sad how much we can hurt our children because of our own dysfunctional upbringing. Too bad we don't have more self-awareness before we have children. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. I would that could go back in time and be a better mother with what I know now. :(
I grew up in this household - the official black sheep scapegoat. I managed to heal my wounds using breathwork which I learned in the early 90s. Absolutely saved my life.
Rebirthing - it forces up repressed memories which is the mind’s most natural and fundamental defence for this type of complex PTSD. It’s just too difficult for the brain of a child to process serious issues such as betrayal and abandonment. It was developed in the 70 and 80s as a means of retrieval in order to come to terms with these issues as an adult.
We all want attention sometimes and people are your friends for selfish reasons and they are not your friend for selfish reasons too. It's human nature and we have to step back from reacting the same ways passing on the same kinds of behaviors to other people. *Legitimate* caring relationships are hard to find.
Thank you Daniel...I can see how I have both been a victim of covert narcissim both as a child and an adult and a perpetrator of it in relationships with others as an adult and definitely as a child. It's kind of inevitable if we were raised in a situation of merged boundaries that we then struggle with the boundaries of and with others. After all that is what was modelled to us. I see it's been my own terror of losing relationships that has stopped me from making boundaries and therefore separating or truly growing up. For a long time I have tried to avoid romantic relationships for this very reason but it happens everywhere - work relationships, other community connections and sooner or later life it seems forces us to face up to it. It's probably harder to face up to, the greater the self hatred wound has been. Your videos are really helping me. I have a sense that once I do, the worst of the conflict probably will actually drop away because then it becomes easier to see what is for you and what is clearly not. I have spent so much time trying to manipulate people who both feel manipulated by my guilt tripping and who are not interested in self understanding and change. And I can just stop and really see what I am seeking from them can only come from within me.
Some of the most "narcissistic" people I've known have called so many other people narcissists. If people don't cater to the narcissists every whim, they must be the real narcissist lol.
Thank you for sharing sir. I wanna say that how you expose them is exactly that. Create strong boundaries. My ex wife was a covert. Trust your instincts and keep your boundaries. Co- Dependents are magnets 🧲 for these individuals
OMG! My mother did the exact same thing! I’ve been learning all I can absorb about cluster b stuff, similar to you my father was a violent sociopathic/malignant narcissist from what I can tell. My mother did a lot of boarder line stuff but I’m leaning more towards a vulnerable narcissist. Especially the games of triangulation with anyone in proximity and deliberation in her actions to punish but act like it’s never her fault, it’s what you did, what else could she do kinda talk. If your still reading, I separated myself from my entire family almost 20 years ago. It’s a matter of survival. Treat it as such. Take what life you have left on this planet and own it, there is no better “revenge “ you can take on these people than dropping them like a bad habit, focusing on healing yourself and living your best life, they will implode seeing you so happy without them, for months on end.
Narcissist is so over used. You know when you have been with a real one they are predators and the only people who they do it to are the spouse and children because they impress everybody else. They have no empathy and so learning the difference between cognitive empathy and compassionate empathy is the defining factor in this. Yes, it's a spectrum. A lot of people come high on it. But people throw this word around like nothing. Someone with NPD wouldn't and couldn't be recognised by most psychologists, fact. You have to have a special one because they lie about things that normal people would find seemingly no reason to lie about. Their entire life is a lie. Every word is a lie. Who they say they are is a lie. Who they portray themselves as to the outside world is a lie. They are a con artist. If you are calling someone a narc but you couldn't describe them as a con artist or having no empathy then please reconsider your use of this word because NPD is the worst abuse imaginable. This is why most people kill themselves after dealing with one of them. It's not just about attention and admiration. They follow cycles. They have a behaviour cycle. They do not love. It's a pathology. Not curable. They do not change they are predators and the only people who know about them are the survivors of them that is how it works. If you can't relate to the glossary of terms such as love bomb, devalue, flying monkey, discard, hoover, reverse hoover, re-idealisation etc then you have no business calling any one a narc and you are making things so much harder for victims to recognise what this really is. In a narc relationship the victim is turned into the abuser and the narc becomes the victim and everybody around them believes it. It's as simple as that.
This is super interesting. When my dad found out I had moved out in secret, he told a relative that I wasn't his daughter. He really took his mask off there
I'd say that covert narcissism is dominant in my grandmother's personality. To sum it up, planning for others appears to fuel some part of her existence and she becomes very upset when she's unable to cross those boundaries and make others her doormat. This is what she did to my far more simple-minded grandfather. She plans what he eats, what he wears, where he goes and when, what he can and cannot say... reduced to a child. But she is also very generous to strangers, and so only immediate family members can see the truth.
Wow you are a truth teller, I never understood why my brother only liked me if i had money to send to him. Even in my worse moments he was not my friend. It is all about him his needs his health and happiness, this video it is an eye opener. Thank you.
Great video. Thanks for sharing and exploring. My mother became so cold, unloving and in denial when I confronted her with some stuff from childhood. My siblings and family still partially believe that she is this paragon of virtue, who fed me and took care of the house, and its me who hurted her. But her mask came off for me few times so that I know. I was just her little servant all the time, doing what she wanted me to do. And complaining about all the people who she presented her good side to(two faced). I also remember that when my siblings confronted her few times, she became nasty to them also. They just maybe didnt had the strenght or willingness to cut her off, so they stayed and pushed me to forgive her instead.
I've had the exact same experience with an aunt of mine. Only after a couple of years of disconnecting from her and working on my own healing and learning about NPD could I figure out her real motivations. After cutting me off for standing up for myself, she replaced me with other cousins who until then were treated as basically inexistent. She reproduced the same dynamics, the exact same pattern. Well, it was hard to break free from her, and learning about what exactly happened also costed me emotionally. But I am so glad I am free from her 🙏 Your videos are incredibly accurate 😉👍
This is very healing and helpful to me to hear. You are opening up and airing out ancient wounds in psyches that are so needy, right here on UA-cam. Thank you so much, again.
Daniel, what a wonderful post. I have never felt it helpful to have people talk in the abstract about narcissism, but really having these examples along with the dynamics and energies you were experiencing explained, makes it tangible for me. Two questions: 1) You say your mother was wearing this mask of unconditional love. Have you ever felt unconditionally loved by her though? What I am trying to get at here is, wether she was able to fake it on an energy level (which I highly doubt, but still want to know how you experienced it). Like I can imagine THINKING "oh I am unconditionally loved" but not really feeling it. Like a split perception. I just cant imagine to really feel this warm glow of unconditional love when around her? 2) How can you tell if you are a covert narcissist yourself? Since it might just be subconscious. And along with that, how to draw the line with "normal" selfishness in the context of woundedness. Is every lackful needful person necessarily selfish? Because I believe to some degree we are. Depression, Anxiety,... and all that stuff makes you naturally self-absorbed. Co-dependent - people from my point of view - are just the same, even though they are making themselves believe they are no, and that they are super-selfless. (I'd be curious to know if you disagree.) So where is the line? Wouldn't it be maybe much wiser to really look at selfishness at a spectrum? This whole "You are a narcissist and I am not, I might be selfish sometimes, but that is completely in a different realm than who you are." might actually not help the healing process? I am not talking about excusing narcissism (in its various degrees), but taking it a bit out of this black-and-white devil/victim realm people love to put it in. Sorry, BIG questions. But maybe they inspire you to further thought - and if, Id be super interested in hearing your opinion.
Hannah I love what you've written, and especially your 2nd point. I really couldn't agree more with what you've said here: the continuum is massively underrated in my opinion and I find it really helpful to keep that in mind with this discussion too. After all, growth is possible in all humans, if and when a person is open to it and even in spite of their at times vast internal wounds. I think it feels to me that without even wanting it to, the discussion otherwise has the potential to become quite pathologising and without any hope of a "shift" in painful dynamics. I love how you've worded your own reflections here - thank you.🙂
Yup, awesome comment. Notice alot of this inherent narcicistic selfishness in my wounded self! I think it's a spectrum. Best thing we can do is call it as we see it.
@Hanna, I really appreciate how you worded your comment/questions. I'd like to believe that all of this is a spectrum of self-centeredness all humans possess, and that the healing process of relationship can best happen when we approach it from that perspective with love ourselves. In my own case until my son shut down contact and communication with me I was blind to my narcissism, didn't know gaslighting was a "thing" (I was doing it, all the time, but unaware!) and had to to a lot of rethinking, remembering in a new light, etc., and ultimately, repenting, in order to be ready for an eventual (hopefully, but not knowing if it would ever happen) reconciliation and rebuilding of our relationship. We are reconciled now but a long way from "rebuilt".
@@kmsongbirdwhat you wrote gives me hope! Good job! People who genuinely acknowledge their mistakes deserve the good their acknowledgement will bring.
Maybe one of the reasons I like you so much Daniel is because you and I are very alike in our differentiation from our parents and also both do therapy lol
Oh my, your description of your mother confirms my observations about my mother. The exception was that my mom was a Christian, so my family dynamic had a foundation of religiosity to manipulate for her own benefit. Something always struck me as a little off about my Moms altruism and her targets for good deeds. I now suspect why I feel I was/am an alien in my own family is because I have the least narcissistic characteristics of them all! My not conforming to their ‘rules’ and cohesiveness as a group has made me an outsider. Independent thought is viewed as suspicious at best. Since my Mom passed away, my independent personality has become unforgivable since I now find myself being frozen out by my siblings. However, the siblings would never do it overtly. That would be unChristian of them! but they have gotten their message across very clearly just the same. I’m just so glad I’m finally seeing these relationships for what they are which is toxic and taking I’m taking steps to limit more damaging interactions at this time. Thank you for the video!
I have heard the "he / she / you are just like family," line so many times, inevitably followed by banishment. Many, if not most people do not seem to be able to relate with others except through a paradigm of exploiter / exploited.
Oh man you brought back some memories i was always the golden child and i was always looking forward to please my parents until i got some disease and my parents wanted me to take an injection for it but the doctor told you have to sign some papers because this drug has severe side effects so i said no i am not taking it after that i saw the ugly face of my narcissistic parents they started name calling me guilt tripping threatening me to kick me out if i don't obey them unconditionally
Going through this right now with my mom. Since Ive started setting boundaries it's been a hellish environment to live in but it's also really helpful to understand her abuse now. I would love to hear your thoughts on the overlap between narcissistic traits and borderline traits as Ive noticed quite a bit of similarities.
I don't really understand why make a parallel with a 4 or 8 year old child (to explain the stages of emotional development at which the angry person would have remained stuck). An angry or very temperamental 4 year old is a child who is likely ALREADY abused, violated, denied, i.e. his behaviour is more the expression of violence than the characteristic of a developmental stage X, related to his age in particular or to childhood in general. Psychoanalysts in France love to talk about immaturity for narcissists and perverts (called psychopaths or sadists in the US) and associate the latter's immaturity with the immaturity of children, citing "infantile stage", etc. without ever specifying. But these are COMPLETELY different immaturities, in my opinion. I've seen the anger of a psychopath bawling, banging his fists, screaming, etc., then laughing with a devilish look at me when I was taken aback... (this psychopath was a psychoanalyst, by the way... so he handled many concepts in public and applied them diabolically in private). I've never seen a baby this angry before. And if I met an angry baby like that, I'd have serious questions about what he's going through or has gone through. I think that if we clearly dissociate the cognitive, experiential, intellectual, ... immaturity of children from the impulses, emotional peaks, abuse, etc. of narcissistic people, we would gain clarity, and respect for people in their infancy.
This is so enlightening. I am seeing this is a learned response to trauma. I am so glad I did not have children. I know I have exhibited some of these manipulative traits to get attention and to control others. I would have done alot of damage if I had had children.
12:55 "This is the clue to what I have always felt" - I can so relate to this. When it comes out, it's so clear that it was underneath all the time, but I just didn't have enough "proof" to justify it to myself without thinking there's something wrong with me if I think that way. My father was both, overt and covert. When I think back I can see many clear manifestations of overt narcissism, but in a way he had a soft tone in his personality and he always talked how he only wanted good for everyone and how he was the victim, badly treated. I believed him and began to believe that the things he did meant love, although in some way they didn't feel like love, I just didn't have words or explanations on why they didn't feel like love. I had no way of explaining to myself why I had these mixed feelings.
Wow! This is brilliant Daniel, I totally understand. Very accurate. You are an amazing survivor. It takes so much power and courage to place boundaries, and it is the right thing to do. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for sharing.
I was with a diagnosed narcissist for two years. I have managed to run away after more than two years. But I was confronted with my own narcissism. I am deeply confused because I feel like I am a narcissist too! Maybe we were two narcissists in the relationship. I am constantly correcting and questioning myself. I am torn between what my needs are and how I don't want to appear to others. It would be horrible to be. narcissist. I would never want to do to others what was done to me.
Yup. I had a pair like that, overt father was mostly easier to deal with, but my mother..., much more damaging because it was mixed with a love message. She remains painfully absent, shallow and negligent. My father was simply not there. Saw him once per year. He's deceased now. They were both broken children, like their parents and those before them. I chose to remain child-free and am the happy period at the end of our genetic sentence.
do narcissists seek other narcissists for relationships? Are they drawn to other narcissists for relationships? Romantic or otherwise? Or do they recognize the 'game' that other narcissists are playing and avoid them, in preference for someone who wouldn't be able to see it, someone else they'd have a better shot at manipulating ? Or else just for fear of being 'found out' for what they're doing? Or would they be drawn to them, appreciating/respecting a fellow narcissist for their like-talent?
Sublime way of showing yourself as a victim of both of your parents to satisfy own needs. A vicious cycle of blaming others, instead of accepting the world how it is. We all do that.
When narcissists parents steal your friends, they are also showing you that you are not special to them, you can be replaced if you don't tow the line. It sounds like your mum was triangulating you with your friend too. The messaging would be like, "do as I say" or I will reject you as a bad child while praising your friend. Your mum sounds a bit like mine, and I believe she is a combination of NPD, and BPD, with a touch of the HPD and psychopathy. In fact, I see these personality types as combinations of cluster b types. At different times, in different circumstances, these subtly distinct, yet similar relational styles will be in operation. It's the worst thing in the world to be the child of these personality types. We survivors, know only too well, the pain and the legacy of such abuse.
This was such a great explanation of covert narcissism. Some of the things that give narcissists away are Narcissists act in ways to keep your attention focused on them. You are not allowed to have boundaries. Narcissists lack basic human kindness. They help others only to appear good. They love their egos or how they appear in the world but hate that inner child within.
The word to describe these people is passive agression, and often it's hidden under the guise of care and concern, these are very hypersensitive, envious, and negative people who are jealous of everyone because they are self focused making constant comparisons of themselves to others, they have a hidden grandiosity that is unfulfilled and the covert is painfully aware of this so the way they rectify this is to blame everyone for getting in their way of fulfilling their delusions of grandeur, now narcissists are literally not capable of connecting and bonding with any other person including their own children and they are not able to love others in a meaningful way because of the lack of deeper levels of empathy, all narcissists will not respect boundaries especially the covert, people are seen as objects and possessions that are extensions of the narcissist themselves, so basically you are a prop for the movie running in their minds, they only interact with your representation in their minds, all narcissists do not live in reality, my ex dad is a malignant narcissist and my ex boyfriend is a covert narcissist and I totally relate to what the gentleman is saying, it's a dysfunctional and distructive person to have in your life in any way, a word of warning, the covert narcissist can be profoundly destructive and they get pleasure out of the misfortunes of others including their own children, they feel victimized by the world and are out to even the score, they will smile in your face while stabbing you in the back because they are extremely pathologically sensitive, envious, bitter, and resentful and yes it's all on purpose, once a covert narcissist has been identified you must plan your escape quietly, quickly, without conflict, and covering your butt with proof nothing happened at your exit, don't call them out and don't tell them you are leaving, once you're out you don't go back there under no circumstances or they will dismantle you and destroy your life because they are seeking revenge for abandonment and all the crazy slights and fake victimizing they think you did, these types of narcissists are a flipping nightmare, please heed this warning, get out and protect yourself!
So good! That's exactly when clarity comes - when you pull back and are whole without them - then they reveal their true self. Just saw this with a seemingly caring colleague, whose kindness evaporated quite definitely as soon as I refused this persons coercive / intrusive 'care'. Quite scary to see! Especially as this person has their unquestioning believers, who they are now spinning against me. Typical right, of classical narcissm!
My mom was a narcissist and similar too except she was jealous I had friends and was friendly towards them. "Why dont you smile at me like you smile at your friends??" Bitch, beacause you make me so miserable lol. She wouldn't let me hang out with them unless I did what she wanted and it always came with conditions.
Brilliant speech. This describes my mother perfectly. When I pulled back the blankets on her behavior, she disowned me, including getting a restraining order against me. That was honestly, the best gift she ever gave to me, and I haven't had any contact with her in over 13 years :)
Drama Triangle: Narcissist, Victim and Rescuer is the Ego. Usually, we oscillate back and forth between the roles. Just as he explains, his mother played the Rescuer for his friend, and became the Narcissist when he made one mistake. And she was the Victim of his father.
Thank you, for this bright analysis and for giving real-life examples which makes it much more useful and understandable. This overt-covert-father-mother alignment is so familiar to me, I know what you are talking about.... I like how you notice that the mother is stuck in an upper age development compared to the overt father and this gives her a little more advantage and a little more conscious to be able to analyze and manipulate the father, playing the "death" opossum. * Also they had strong co-dependence- it is possible one of them not to be narc but to have narc tendencies and to develop through the years strong dependencies because of the organic narc.
I have been so frustrated with the Covert Narcissist description, because nearly everything I read or listened to that attempted to explain this thing *described every shy, introverted, socially awkward, sensitive, damaged person we have ever met, pretty much*. And I think this has been misguided and will contribute to more stigma against the shy, awkward, introverted and traumatized. I have found a few UA-camrs who have explained it in a way that makes sense. I think your video does a good job. It is Narcissism, it is just a matter of the proportion of Overt and Covert tactics.
parallel universes man, woe to he/she that is the progeny of a pair of narcs. My 79 year old narc mother has collaborated with my narc ex in order to attempt to break me down. The abuse I suffered from my parents allowed my ex to quickly figure out how to make me react in inappropriately and thus I went from being the scapegoated child in my family of origin to being the "angry" father, and the truth is I was and am at times still quite angry. I was abused silly, literally. My cognitive skills were compromised and I was likely the teacher's worst nightmare in most of my school days. I had no self esteem and thus fell hard any time someone paid any attention to me. I'm trying to heal, to move forward and I have to some degree done just that. I'm going to tell my story. I have no reason to fabricate anything; as it is my story like so many is crazier than any fiction. I'm just great full that I survived as I have lived through some very difficult times and come to see that all of this craziness never had anything to do with me being a 'bad' person. I've learned to recognize toxicity in its many forms and learned to keep those types out of my like. My hope is that this subject become more mainstream and that more people recoknize that they're in 'no win' situations/relationships and will begin to see that only chance for salvation is to remove all toxic people from our lives that we are able to and as well to deal with the toxic people that we can't remove from our lives in a far more healthy way, observe, don't absorb, grey rock.
Yep. This helps to clarify that both my parents are and were narcissists. Exact same experience when I chose to distance myself from my mother. Her caring was an act completely .... Total self interest. The much harder part is her tight knit manipulative relationship with my children. This is what really complicates and increases pain 10-fold.
Yeah, virtually every relative I had was very neglectfull and or abusive. Most of them seem to have been very narcassistic towards me also especially my mother. She actually played the MOMMIE DEAREST bit better than MOMMIE dearest. She didn't have public outbursts like Joan Crawford did. They've destroyed my life.
I grew up in a very similar family to you. Except my parents stayed in the city … my dad was the overt and mom was the covert. Also … my parents stayed together because my mom had waaaay too much pride (or maybe too much denial?) to ever admit to the outside world that something was wrong. It was all about the show. It really F-ed with my brain and my sense of reality. My father believed in corporeal punishment - he really thought that’s what was best for children. He was so outrageous. Ridiculous. Overt narcissists are stunted in toddlerhood. And he was proud of it!
Narcissists don't like it when you're being yourself and developing your own personality because they only "love" you if you allow them to manipulate you. They basically see you as a puppet with strings. Yes, they think they own you!
Idk but I'm kinda being jealous from ppl who have their own personalities to the point I just become mean to them or noticed my thoughts directly going to how do I win my control over them when I feel I lost control of everything and I'm really inscure but try to look the best even if it means being alone is that narcissism?
They want those with weak boundaries
you just described cats in general 😅
yep
Exactly!!!!
This is a very accurate description of narcissism in parents. They harm their kids deeply.
Now you are getting me to think deeply about my parents...Thank you.
Very deeply
Especially the mother as we are bonded from babies whilst our fathers are the bread winners
Yep.... Its a nasty think
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller
Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix IMAGO
Safe People by Henry Cloud
Emotional Intimacy by Robert Masters
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman
The Hoffman Process by John and Julie Gottman
The Untethered Soul by Micheal Singer
having narcissistic parents is such a trip... The first hurdle is getting over the cognitive dissonance and putting the blame for their abusive treatment back with its rightful owner, (and goodluck with that) because they always lead you to believe that the way they mistreated you was your fault. The blatant hypocrisy of how they always want you to 'be responsible', and yet they evade responsibility at every chance they get. Parentification sucks..
My mother was a overt narc, I’m 56 and spent some twenty years in and out of therapy. But most therapist don’t understand narcissism they’d just look at me with a stoic expression as though I was just angry and unforgiving. Few times while describing some of my mothers cruelty to my therapist, my teeth would chatter, I was in my forties then and still scared of my mother. That women really frightened me. I suffered with Post traumatic stress most of my life. I did the no contact too (trying to protect my heart and mind) but I was the only child so eventually I’d get drawn back into the drama. She’s dead now, but I tell you ......it was like living with a terrorist! She was always out to get me! She was never my friend. I could never trust my own mother.
Reading your comment, I felt so very understood. I really, really feel for you. I'm very sorry for everything that was done to you. Likewise, I've been in therapy on and off for about 4 years and I still feel like I am making little to no headway in repairing the damage done to my mind and soul. It makes me very discouraged seeing how very long and arduous it has been to heal from this. I will keep you in my mind and prayers that you will find healing and peace, friend. All the best.
they are empty vessels I don't think they have a soul tbh.
It’s weird being in a war in your own home with your own parents. My Mom is definitely covert and my dad might be. I only realized this recently in my late twenties. Luckily I’ve been able to start winning some battles now that I know it’s war. I certainly don’t win every time but I’m getting better everyday. I really need to go no contact though. All that said I’ve heard that Chris Voss (FBI agent who literally negotiated with terrorists) has some skills and strategies in his book that are profoundly effective with narcs.
I know exactly what you mean. I am living with one and my dairy writing have exactly these descriptions of narc. And this is validation also
Same. Some people have a sense of release when their Narcissist parent passes away, they regain there life or make the life that they want.
I almost became/or I was a narcissist. When someone set boundaries, had other things to do, didn't think I was a god, I was (usually privately) enraged. I wanted revenge (fortunately never pursued it). I felt that I'd been shunned by the world, malignantly cast out into an indifferent universe, murdered. Eventually I grew to find my dramatic reactions funny and absurd. I'd grown competent in my own interests and understood (duh!) that others, like me, had plans and pursuits and other obligations. I'm a little frightened to think I may have ended up locked into such an odd, narrow prison, had I not gained some perspective. Today, other people's autonomy from me allows me more freedom and makes me feel less alone than I would have had I gone the narcissism route. Making others into mere props of the self is incredibly lonely, like a child playing with toy soldiers by himself all day for years.
Todd Boothbee Very well said!
Wisdom.
You are very brave all the power to you.
The perspective is appreciated
Im glad you wrote this. So often you only hear one side of the story, painting them as evil - don't get me wrong, narcissists certainly can be evil - but I think it's difficult to listen to that perspective and think "oh, that sounds like me!". What i mean is it must be hard for narcs to recognize it within themselves.. it takes a lot of strength to do what you did. It also helps me understand what is going on in their heads a lot better. More power to you :)
It's tough because you know your parents had to have been raised in a hellscape to become this way, but they also are responsible for their actions. For them to come to middle age and still not have addressed it leads you to think they really are bad people.
Facts
@Unknowing exactly! It's not an excuse, but back then people didn't have much empathy
well put, although i would use the word weak instead of bad
Sometimes narcissists are formed by being spoilt, given everything.
“Bad” is a moral judgement. They’re psychologically screwed up people. Toxic people.
Love the fact that you’ve survived two narcissistic parents and can talk about this to us! I had one narcissistic parent and still suffer a lot at the age of 42! Still trying to heal......thankyou for sharing 😍
I am so sorry this happened to you
My mom was/is a narcissist. She used to ditch me at stores and places all the time sometimes for hours at a time and started when I was 6. I didn't realize until I became an adult that she did this because she was hoping I would get abducted or something would happen to me.
Most people I have known that are narcissist are the type where they portray themselves as perfect and so generous, but in actuality they are very selfish, manipulative and cruel. A narcissist doesn't love anyone because they can only love themselves.
Omg, Ive never seen anyone experience the same thing! My mom also used to constantly "lose" me in stores. It was so frustrating, my 5 year old self used to think my mom was just dumb and I would yell at her that shes supposed to not leave me alone. I always felt she resented me and had disgust and contempt towards me but she never admits to it because then that would make her a Bad Mom, like her mom.
Im sorry you endured that crap too.
Its actually they cant love themselves that they cant love anyone.
I’ve heard narcs can experience love but it’s a muted numbed version of what someone with empathy would experience. At least that’s what a self proclaimed NPD diagnosed person said. I think the love they express is more rooted in fear and so isn’t really love at all.
Hey, what are you? they don't love themselves first.
They don’t love themselves
Had a number of narcissistic teachers. Not adoring them meant they would go on a personal and public vendetta against you. And they often got the rest of the class on their side.
The idea of having kids still terrifies me because I have always suspected that I actually may be one of these people myself - I take up a lot of space...and the thought of suffocating a young life disgusts me.
My father too was overt and my mother covert. No one understands why I walked away from my mother. Your video on leaving your parents helped me begin that journey in 2017. Stay being you Daniel. It’s a hard world to live in if you believe in individual freedom and expression and value every individual as equal.
Jeez. My mom trying to win over my friends by being cool is something I had never detected as narcissistic behaviour but... touché. On top of that, she was a high school teacher who could really force this persona by being helpful and patient with those who struggled (the more broken the kid's family was, the more she'd support them). She was also incredibly fun in class. Needless to say everyone wished they had such a cool mum as mine...
Oh my goodness I keep brushing off my mom being a narc but she did that and still does that with my friends... And she is so nice to them and will never do those things for me. So everyone around me never believes me that she can be so insane....
I breathed a sigh of relief when my mother passed. Then I felt guilty for feeling relief! Ugh! It's a lifelong battle and one that you have to constantly work through even if they're dead and gone!! Thank you for sharing this with all of the survivors of this crazy mental illness!!
I have a deep-seated respect for anyone who's managed to survive a narcissistic household
I've experienced a Covert-Narc back when I was dating a girl before her mask slipped off and I realised what she really was, luckily I realised just barely 3 months into the relationship, I managed to get away unscathed (It was absolutely horrible, but there wasn't really anything that took a long time to heal from, given that we'd only known each other during those 3 months) , when I read stories of people recalling their own experiences with Narcs it makes my heart weep for them
having dated a Narc was such an awful experience, though luckily I was able to escape, but having to be raised by a Narc? as your parent?, oh dear God, I wouldn't wish something like that on my worst enemy
To anyone else who's had to suffer at the horrendously uncaring nature of a narcissist: Stay strong, you're perfect as you are. The very essence of you is inherently worthy of love. You don't need to contort yourself into something you're not in order to attain validation and acceptance, you just simply being yourself makes you beyond good enough to be worthy of all the love you could ever desire from a loved one. You are enough.
I am not sure If i dated covert narc, but I have my suspicions. This isalso related to me being raised by one - so its partially my fault for not seeing this clearly at the beggining.
I was just given some stuff back when I gave alot of love and attention first. I think she was deeply hurt as a child, but its not my job now to parent her and fix her, so I just stopped doing the loving, becouse I started to feel resentful.
Narcissist or how you call them are not there to get you. In my case it was just repeating pattern of my mother, WHO was really the covert narcissist. And back then I was victim who was completely dependent on her and didnt had a choice.
I still wish this girl the best, but she needs to do the steps to heal.
The last paragraph almost made me tear up. I’m 21 and recently I had a girlfriend - first romantic relationship as an adult - that was so kind and caring to me that she reminded me of what I forgot: that I am inherently worthy of real love and care.
After some reflection, I think I realized that I am a narcissist. I do see people in terms of what I can get from them and I find myself not caring so much about their emotions and how I may be hurting them. Maybe the first step to becoming less narcissistic is acknowledging that I have many narcissistic qualities. I only wonder how I became a narcissist. Genetics? Feeling like no one really cares about me and listens to me? Trauma from teenage years? Being spoiled as a child, at least in terms of material possessions? The way my parents raised me and how they behaved? I don’t know.
@@JohnSmith-cg3cv it’s hard to recognize and accept one’s own flaws so I think it’s courageous of you to say this about yourself. As far as causes and solutions, doing honest work with an empathetic therapist is probably your best option. It’s extremely helpful to gain an unbiased view from a knowledgeable and experienced therapist to continue improving oneself and overcoming flaws and consequences of life experiences.
Covert means, 'not openly acknowledged or displayed' as opposed to overt, which is something, 'done or shown openly; plainly apparent.'
Yes, this! Both covert and overt narcissists can be craftily manipulative. The difference between a covert and overt narcissist is the grandiosity - an overt narc is grandiose - but a covert narc is introverted and their grandiosity is hidden. It’s not visible. Which can make it very difficult to identify them - especially if they are also hidden about their abusiveness. But both covert and overt narcs can use hidden forms of abuse. It’s important to know the difference as otherwise a lot of covert narcs go under the radar because of that lack of grandiosity.
Oh my goodness.......for the first time in my life, I feel totally understood. Both my parents were narcs. This video explains so much about what it was like for me dealing with very selfish, emotionally stunted parents! Thanks so much.
Most people that received trauma by narcissists may not realise that going through that they may have unconsciously acquired narcissist traits themselves. Therefore, the part of the healing process is also doing away with narcissist parts in you. Talking from my personal journey.
_"The best revenge is not to be like your enemy."_ - *Marcus Aurelius*
It's not that bad if you can catch yourself it's not like you'll develop the full blown pathology because that starts at a really young age most people have to worry more about becoming borderline or codependent as a reaction I'm undiagnosed borderline after trauma
Some of them are covert, yet Very aware of what they are doing.
TBH I think most of them do not know what they are doing. It's no excuse, but it's true. They are just being their true self without thinking.
My parents are narcissists who are frequently angry because I refuse to act as their puppet to play according to their script. One day I finally wake up and realise what I survived from. Now I still dreamed of them as sticky black monsters in my nightmares, I think that's who they really are.
I agree, same to me... thanks for sharing
My sister, who is 4 years older than me is a covert and she would do the same growing up. I would bring friends over and she would seduce them away, then because they were being accepted by an older “cool kid” and did not have an older sister of their own would turn against me. In later years being around my sister felt like being around someone trying to use me, redirect all my energy towards them and neglect my own needs. I don’t even talk to her anymore. She tried to use my father’s passing to get me on the phone but I did not take the bait. I know it sounds bad that I would not talk to her over a common significant loss but it was one that we all knew could happen anytime over the past decade so it was not unexpected. If my grief was spread out over several years than so may hers have been and therefore the recent loss was bittersweet in that he is no longer suffering and in the afterlife with those who went before. Anyway, I consider my sister someone who does not have my best interest in mind and I don’t have time for her meddling or other BS, my hard fast rule about her is zero contact.
Mine was the same way and I have been no contact since 2016. There is no other way to deal with them. I do find myself remembering the good times now and then and I will miss her but I remind myself how horrible she was in between those times and it keeps me away!!
hi Daniel! my mother is also covert narcissist. I have found out it recently and I do not talk to her any more. I saw how toxic she were and how devious her actions and words were. She was trying to ruin my life and my soul (for no reason).
it took me 50 yrs to uncover my uncle that had abused me since i was 4 yo, covert can be very tricky and deceiving, his favorite role was that of a victim, but u r right Daniel i finally started to pay attention to the way i felt after being around him and thats when i realized that he was very toxic and i first informed him that he was hurting me with the things he was saying/doing and then they got worse, so i pulled away and then the mask came off and boy was it nasty what i saw, an enraged nasty child, anyway i no longer talk with that side of the family cuz they are all highly damaged narcs, i tried so long and so hard to get them to love me and i finally came to the very very painful realization that they never would because they r uncapable of loving, very sad... but i do have truckloads of love in me its just hard to let it out most the time
Thank you
I was parentified only child. My father was so sneaky being so mean to me. No one truly sees a narcs cruelty, they just say “oh you’re overreacting “
To this day I feel misunderstood, alone, and not heard.
I hear you and believe you. I also understand.
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller
Getting The Love You Want by Harville Hendrix IMAGO
Safe People by Henry Cloud
Emotional Intimacy by Robert Masters
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman
The Hoffman Process by John and Julie Gottman
The Untethered Soul by Micheal Singer
Children can see hypocrisy without even trying. My mother has always been a soulless monster to me (now also to my son), cold like an ice queen with tongue like a sword. And yet she's been playing a role of mother Teresa imppecably before her friends, neighbours and all family members. She is considered saint (without exaggeration) by all who know her. My father, also a narcissist, used to beat me up really hard to satisfy HER needs. She would always set him up against me to take pleasure in him "punishing" me. They are both monsters. I don't think I hate anyone more than I hate her. I'm happy my brother sees things as I do, although he was her golden child.
Great video - Thank You. I had a mother like yours and it was a Nightmare and so Damaging. Covert Narcissists are Insidiously Abusive. They are stealthy, sneaky and manipulative. They undermine your perceptions - you as a person. Best to go No Contact with these Deadly and Dangerous People. I have a lot of Empathy for Children of Narcissistic Parents. It's Tragic what they go through.
As soon as I started standing up for myself, I was cut off immediately. It was CRAZY. Lying, tantrums, silence. So glad I did it.
i happen to know my parents' background and the backgrounds of aunts uncles, great aunts uncles, great grandparents etc etc. they lived in poverty, they were emotionally abused. my mother told me she would wet her pants when she heard her step dad come home from work. her step dad was put into an orphanage because his parents had too many children to take care of. my father's mother killed my father's self esteem. my parents checked out completely and abandoned me physically and emotionally. i became stuck as an infant, a seven yr old and a very very angry and resentful teen ager. i played out my life by reacting to life situations in the way of 3 age groups. an infant is needy because they know their life depends on their parents. a seven year old is manipulative and the teen ager blames everything bad in life on her parents. i went to therapy and allowed myself to feel the deep pain and fear. i felt the powerlessness of the 7 year old. i screamed and blamed my parents. all in front of a compassionate witness. after years of crying, punching pillows and feeling powerless, i took responsibility for myself. i was able to see my parents' pain, fear and feelings of powerlessness. i changed and i realize i don't need them and that i don't need to carry their pain for them anymore. i can be with them now and see them as fellow humans who hurt and who lost the ability to love because love was not mirrored to them as little babies. that clears the road to compassion for myself and my parents. it's hard work. i think working to see our parents' suffering is important in the healing process but the way to get there is to let yourself hate and blame as long as needed.
@songbird singing What a great deal of progress you have made. God bless you!
I relate to the part about friends. My mum would get close to my friends and help them out financially and so if i ever needed to vent about my mum to my friends, it would become very awkward. It was like she used this "help" as insurance. Im not going to let future friendships be sabotaged this way
Every time I watch your videos I discover that we do have the same exact parents. This is the first time I hear my own story/struggle with my family in a very authentic way. Thank you so much
Your experience with your mother stealing your friends helped me realize that my mom did the same thing with all my relationship. And because of that i just ended up giving up at forming relationships with other people, so they wouldn't be corrupted in any way.
It is a major step toward psychological health, to accept the idea that both of your parents are equaly responsable of the abusive familial behaviors.
I’ve been studying narcissism for yrs and I’m a therapist as well. You just blew my mind and I just had so many realizations. My Dad was overt and my mom was a sneaky covert lunatic. They attacked me of all siblings because I was my own person. Thank you so much my friend! Do you do coaching or anything like that?
It's so sad how much we can hurt our children because of our own dysfunctional upbringing. Too bad we don't have more self-awareness before we have children. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. I would that could go back in time and be a better mother with what I know now. :(
@Reb6137 My feelings exactly. Took my son cancelling me for 2 years to wake me up to see how I have been and to work to change.
You have a brilliant mind and incredible insight. I could listen to you all day 🙂☺️
Wow, this is so insightful! I love your honesty. Thank you for sharing and teaching!!!
I grew up in this household - the official black sheep scapegoat. I managed to heal my wounds using breathwork which I learned in the early 90s. Absolutely saved my life.
Meditation and breathing has been more helpful thsn anything else for me as well. What kind of breath work did you do?
Yeah, what kind of breathwork please?
Rebirthing - it forces up repressed memories which is the mind’s most natural and fundamental defence for this type of complex PTSD. It’s just too difficult for the brain of a child to process serious issues such as betrayal and abandonment. It was developed in the 70 and 80s as a means of retrieval in order to come to terms with these issues as an adult.
We all want attention sometimes and people are your friends for selfish reasons and they are not your friend for selfish reasons too. It's human nature and we have to step back from reacting the same ways passing on the same kinds of behaviors to other people. *Legitimate* caring relationships are hard to find.
Thank you Daniel...I can see how I have both been a victim of covert narcissim both as a child and an adult and a perpetrator of it in relationships with others as an adult and definitely as a child. It's kind of inevitable if we were raised in a situation of merged boundaries that we then struggle with the boundaries of and with others. After all that is what was modelled to us. I see it's been my own terror of losing relationships that has stopped me from making boundaries and therefore separating or truly growing up. For a long time I have tried to avoid romantic relationships for this very reason but it happens everywhere - work relationships, other community connections and sooner or later life it seems forces us to face up to it. It's probably harder to face up to, the greater the self hatred wound has been. Your videos are really helping me. I have a sense that once I do, the worst of the conflict probably will actually drop away because then it becomes easier to see what is for you and what is clearly not. I have spent so much time trying to manipulate people who both feel manipulated by my guilt tripping and who are not interested in self understanding and change. And I can just stop and really see what I am seeking from them can only come from within me.
Some of the most "narcissistic" people I've known have called so many other people narcissists. If people don't cater to the narcissists every whim, they must be the real narcissist lol.
Thank you for sharing sir. I wanna say that how you expose them is exactly that. Create strong boundaries. My ex wife was a covert. Trust your instincts and keep your boundaries. Co- Dependents are magnets 🧲 for these individuals
Amazing.... the saddest thing is that while we grow up we keep meeting the same person in different faces over and over again....
OMG! My mother did the exact same thing! I’ve been learning all I can absorb about cluster b stuff, similar to you my father was a violent sociopathic/malignant narcissist from what I can tell. My mother did a lot of boarder line stuff but I’m leaning more towards a vulnerable narcissist. Especially the games of triangulation with anyone in proximity and deliberation in her actions to punish but act like it’s never her fault, it’s what you did, what else could she do kinda talk. If your still reading, I separated myself from my entire family almost 20 years ago. It’s a matter of survival. Treat it as such. Take what life you have left on this planet and own it, there is no better “revenge “ you can take on these people than dropping them like a bad habit, focusing on healing yourself and living your best life, they will implode seeing you so happy without them, for months on end.
Daniel, you have such an insightful, articulate and sensitive way of seeing and explaining what is extremely twisted and veiled behaviour. Thank you.
Narcissist is so over used. You know when you have been with a real one they are predators and the only people who they do it to are the spouse and children because they impress everybody else. They have no empathy and so learning the difference between cognitive empathy and compassionate empathy is the defining factor in this. Yes, it's a spectrum. A lot of people come high on it. But people throw this word around like nothing. Someone with NPD wouldn't and couldn't be recognised by most psychologists, fact. You have to have a special one because they lie about things that normal people would find seemingly no reason to lie about. Their entire life is a lie. Every word is a lie. Who they say they are is a lie. Who they portray themselves as to the outside world is a lie. They are a con artist. If you are calling someone a narc but you couldn't describe them as a con artist or having no empathy then please reconsider your use of this word because NPD is the worst abuse imaginable. This is why most people kill themselves after dealing with one of them. It's not just about attention and admiration. They follow cycles. They have a behaviour cycle. They do not love. It's a pathology. Not curable. They do not change they are predators and the only people who know about them are the survivors of them that is how it works. If you can't relate to the glossary of terms such as love bomb, devalue, flying monkey, discard, hoover, reverse hoover, re-idealisation etc then you have no business calling any one a narc and you are making things so much harder for victims to recognise what this really is. In a narc relationship the victim is turned into the abuser and the narc becomes the victim and everybody around them believes it. It's as simple as that.
This is super interesting. When my dad found out I had moved out in secret, he told a relative that I wasn't his daughter. He really took his mask off there
I'm sorry you had to go through that, man. Thank you for all your videos. I learned more than with any therapist ever.
I'd say that covert narcissism is dominant in my grandmother's personality. To sum it up, planning for others appears to fuel some part of her existence and she becomes very upset when she's unable to cross those boundaries and make others her doormat. This is what she did to my far more simple-minded grandfather. She plans what he eats, what he wears, where he goes and when, what he can and cannot say... reduced to a child. But she is also very generous to strangers, and so only immediate family members can see the truth.
You’re describing my mother to a T
Wow you are a truth teller, I never understood why my brother only liked me if i had money to send to him. Even in my worse moments he was not my friend. It is all about him his needs his health and happiness, this video it is an eye opener. Thank you.
I’ve really appreciated your earlier videos, but I’m really glad that you did this one. Fantastic take on this personality disorder
Great video. Thanks for sharing and exploring.
My mother became so cold, unloving and in denial when I confronted her with some stuff from childhood. My siblings and family still partially believe that she is this paragon of virtue, who fed me and took care of the house, and its me who hurted her. But her mask came off for me few times so that I know. I was just her little servant all the time, doing what she wanted me to do. And complaining about all the people who she presented her good side to(two faced). I also remember that when my siblings confronted her few times, she became nasty to them also. They just maybe didnt had the strenght or willingness to cut her off, so they stayed and pushed me to forgive her instead.
Thank you for your Courage to make this Content!
I've had the exact same experience with an aunt of mine. Only after a couple of years of disconnecting from her and working on my own healing and learning about NPD could I figure out her real motivations. After cutting me off for standing up for myself, she replaced me with other cousins who until then were treated as basically inexistent. She reproduced the same dynamics, the exact same pattern. Well, it was hard to break free from her, and learning about what exactly happened also costed me emotionally. But I am so glad I am free from her 🙏
Your videos are incredibly accurate 😉👍
That explains why most people have children. Selfishness
This is very healing and helpful to me to hear. You are opening up and airing out ancient wounds in psyches that are so needy, right here on UA-cam. Thank you so much, again.
Thanks for this very relatable explanation, your right that children are greatly damaged by narcissist parent
Daniel, what a wonderful post. I have never felt it helpful to have people talk in the abstract about narcissism, but really having these examples along with the dynamics and energies you were experiencing explained, makes it tangible for me. Two questions:
1) You say your mother was wearing this mask of unconditional love. Have you ever felt unconditionally loved by her though? What I am trying to get at here is, wether she was able to fake it on an energy level (which I highly doubt, but still want to know how you experienced it). Like I can imagine THINKING "oh I am unconditionally loved" but not really feeling it. Like a split perception. I just cant imagine to really feel this warm glow of unconditional love when around her?
2) How can you tell if you are a covert narcissist yourself? Since it might just be subconscious. And along with that, how to draw the line with "normal" selfishness in the context of woundedness. Is every lackful needful person necessarily selfish? Because I believe to some degree we are. Depression, Anxiety,... and all that stuff makes you naturally self-absorbed. Co-dependent - people from my point of view - are just the same, even though they are making themselves believe they are no, and that they are super-selfless. (I'd be curious to know if you disagree.) So where is the line? Wouldn't it be maybe much wiser to really look at selfishness at a spectrum? This whole "You are a narcissist and I am not, I might be selfish sometimes, but that is completely in a different realm than who you are." might actually not help the healing process? I am not talking about excusing narcissism (in its various degrees), but taking it a bit out of this black-and-white devil/victim realm people love to put it in.
Sorry, BIG questions. But maybe they inspire you to further thought - and if, Id be super interested in hearing your opinion.
Hannah I love what you've written, and especially your 2nd point. I really couldn't agree more with what you've said here: the continuum is massively underrated in my opinion and I find it really helpful to keep that in mind with this discussion too. After all, growth is possible in all humans, if and when a person is open to it and even in spite of their at times vast internal wounds. I think it feels to me that without even wanting it to, the discussion otherwise has the potential to become quite pathologising and without any hope of a "shift" in painful dynamics. I love how you've worded your own reflections here - thank you.🙂
Yup, awesome comment. Notice alot of this inherent narcicistic selfishness in my wounded self! I think it's a spectrum. Best thing we can do is call it as we see it.
@Hanna, I really appreciate how you worded your comment/questions. I'd like to believe that all of this is a spectrum of self-centeredness all humans possess, and that the healing process of relationship can best happen when we approach it from that perspective with love ourselves. In my own case until my son shut down contact and communication with me I was blind to my narcissism, didn't know gaslighting was a "thing" (I was doing it, all the time, but unaware!) and had to to a lot of rethinking, remembering in a new light, etc., and ultimately, repenting, in order to be ready for an eventual (hopefully, but not knowing if it would ever happen) reconciliation and rebuilding of our relationship. We are reconciled now but a long way from "rebuilt".
@@kmsongbirdwhat you wrote gives me hope! Good job! People who genuinely acknowledge their mistakes deserve the good their acknowledgement will bring.
These are 2 great questions.
Maybe one of the reasons I like you so much Daniel is because you and I are very alike in our differentiation from our parents and also both do therapy lol
You are a brave soul. Thank you for these lessons and examples.
Oh my, your description of your mother confirms my observations about my mother. The exception was that my mom was a Christian, so my family dynamic had a foundation of religiosity to manipulate for her own benefit. Something always struck me as a little off about my Moms altruism and her targets for good deeds.
I now suspect why I feel I was/am an alien in my own family is because I have the least narcissistic characteristics of them all! My not conforming to their ‘rules’ and cohesiveness as a group has made me an outsider. Independent thought is viewed as suspicious at best.
Since my Mom passed away, my independent personality has become unforgivable since I now find myself being frozen out by my siblings. However, the siblings would never do it overtly. That would be unChristian of them! but they have gotten their message across very clearly just the same.
I’m just so glad I’m finally seeing these relationships for what they are which is toxic and taking I’m taking steps to limit more damaging interactions at this time.
Thank you for the video!
This is/was my mother. I am 35 and just starting to recover as I realized about 2/3 months ago. Once you realise it's horrific.
I have heard the "he / she / you are just like family," line so many times, inevitably followed by banishment. Many, if not most people do not seem to be able to relate with others except through a paradigm of exploiter / exploited.
Oh man you brought back some memories i was always the golden child and i was always looking forward to please my parents until i got some disease and my parents wanted me to take an injection for it but the doctor told you have to sign some papers because this drug has severe side effects so i said no i am not taking it after that i saw the ugly face of my narcissistic parents they started name calling me guilt tripping threatening me to kick me out if i don't obey them unconditionally
Going through this right now with my mom. Since Ive started setting boundaries it's been a hellish environment to live in but it's also really helpful to understand her abuse now.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the overlap between narcissistic traits and borderline traits as Ive noticed quite a bit of similarities.
I don't really understand why make a parallel with a 4 or 8 year old child (to explain the stages of emotional development at which the angry person would have remained stuck).
An angry or very temperamental 4 year old is a child who is likely ALREADY abused, violated, denied, i.e. his behaviour is more the expression of violence than the characteristic of a developmental stage X, related to his age in particular or to childhood in general.
Psychoanalysts in France love to talk about immaturity for narcissists and perverts (called psychopaths or sadists in the US) and associate the latter's immaturity with the immaturity of children, citing "infantile stage", etc. without ever specifying.
But these are COMPLETELY different immaturities, in my opinion.
I've seen the anger of a psychopath bawling, banging his fists, screaming, etc., then laughing with a devilish look at me when I was taken aback... (this psychopath was a psychoanalyst, by the way... so he handled many concepts in public and applied them diabolically in private).
I've never seen a baby this angry before. And if I met an angry baby like that, I'd have serious questions about what he's going through or has gone through.
I think that if we clearly dissociate the cognitive, experiential, intellectual, ... immaturity of children from the impulses, emotional peaks, abuse, etc. of narcissistic people, we would gain clarity, and respect for people in their infancy.
Good points!
Very hard for this people to understand “you are hurting me” and apologize and change
This is so enlightening. I am seeing this is a learned response to trauma. I am so glad I did not have children. I know I have exhibited some of these manipulative traits to get attention and to control others. I would have done alot of damage if I had had children.
You nailed it. Excellent observations
12:55 "This is the clue to what I have always felt" - I can so relate to this. When it comes out, it's so clear that it was underneath all the time, but I just didn't have enough "proof" to justify it to myself without thinking there's something wrong with me if I think that way. My father was both, overt and covert. When I think back I can see many clear manifestations of overt narcissism, but in a way he had a soft tone in his personality and he always talked how he only wanted good for everyone and how he was the victim, badly treated. I believed him and began to believe that the things he did meant love, although in some way they didn't feel like love, I just didn't have words or explanations on why they didn't feel like love. I had no way of explaining to myself why I had these mixed feelings.
Wow! This is brilliant Daniel, I totally understand. Very accurate. You are an amazing survivor. It takes so much power and courage to place boundaries, and it is the right thing to do. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for sharing.
I was with a diagnosed narcissist for two years.
I have managed to run away after more than two years.
But I was confronted with my own narcissism.
I am deeply confused because I feel like I am a narcissist too!
Maybe we were two narcissists in the relationship.
I am constantly correcting and questioning myself. I am torn between what my needs are and how I don't want to appear to others.
It would be horrible to be. narcissist. I would never want to do to others what was done to me.
Yup. I had a pair like that, overt father was mostly easier to deal with, but my mother..., much more damaging because it was mixed with a love message. She remains painfully absent, shallow and negligent. My father was simply not there. Saw him once per year. He's deceased now.
They were both broken children, like their parents and those before them. I chose to remain child-free and am the happy period at the end of our genetic sentence.
do narcissists seek other narcissists for relationships? Are they drawn to other narcissists for relationships? Romantic or otherwise? Or do they recognize the 'game' that other narcissists are playing and avoid them, in preference for someone who wouldn't be able to see it, someone else they'd have a better shot at manipulating ? Or else just for fear of being 'found out' for what they're doing? Or would they be drawn to them, appreciating/respecting a fellow narcissist for their like-talent?
Sublime way of showing yourself as a victim of both of your parents to satisfy own needs. A vicious cycle of blaming others, instead of accepting the world how it is. We all do that.
When narcissists parents steal your friends, they are also showing you that you are not special to them, you can be replaced if you don't tow the line. It sounds like your mum was triangulating you with your friend too. The messaging would be like, "do as I say" or I will reject you as a bad child while praising your friend. Your mum sounds a bit like mine, and I believe she is a combination of NPD, and BPD, with a touch of the HPD and psychopathy. In fact, I see these personality types as combinations of cluster b types. At different times, in different circumstances, these subtly distinct, yet similar relational styles will be in operation. It's the worst thing in the world to be the child of these personality types. We survivors, know only too well, the pain and the legacy of such abuse.
My mom thinks she owns me and my kids. But she always does “favors” for me.
Thank you for sharing, Daniel.
Your parents so much like mine. I think my mom was traumatized around puberty. My dad around age 3-4, maybe 5.
My siblings learned from them.
He took the words right out of my mouths.
Sounds awful! Your mom needed so much narcissistic supply! Thank goodness you discovered the truth and survived both narc parents.
The one message I get from all of these videos is that there isn’t anyone who is innocent or without trauma!
I think you just described my Mother as well.
This was such a great explanation of covert narcissism. Some of the things that give narcissists away are
Narcissists act in ways to keep your attention focused on them.
You are not allowed to have boundaries.
Narcissists lack basic human kindness. They help others only to appear good.
They love their egos or how they appear in the world but hate that inner child within.
The word to describe these people is passive agression, and often it's hidden under the guise of care and concern, these are very hypersensitive, envious, and negative people who are jealous of everyone because they are self focused making constant comparisons of themselves to others, they have a hidden grandiosity that is unfulfilled and the covert is painfully aware of this so the way they rectify this is to blame everyone for getting in their way of fulfilling their delusions of grandeur, now narcissists are literally not capable of connecting and bonding with any other person including their own children and they are not able to love others in a meaningful way because of the lack of deeper levels of empathy, all narcissists will not respect boundaries especially the covert, people are seen as objects and possessions that are extensions of the narcissist themselves, so basically you are a prop for the movie running in their minds, they only interact with your representation in their minds, all narcissists do not live in reality, my ex dad is a malignant narcissist and my ex boyfriend is a covert narcissist and I totally relate to what the gentleman is saying, it's a dysfunctional and distructive person to have in your life in any way, a word of warning, the covert narcissist can be profoundly destructive and they get pleasure out of the misfortunes of others including their own children, they feel victimized by the world and are out to even the score, they will smile in your face while stabbing you in the back because they are extremely pathologically sensitive, envious, bitter, and resentful and yes it's all on purpose, once a covert narcissist has been identified you must plan your escape quietly, quickly, without conflict, and covering your butt with proof nothing happened at your exit, don't call them out and don't tell them you are leaving, once you're out you don't go back there under no circumstances or they will dismantle you and destroy your life because they are seeking revenge for abandonment and all the crazy slights and fake victimizing they think you did, these types of narcissists are a flipping nightmare, please heed this warning, get out and protect yourself!
So good! That's exactly when clarity comes - when you pull back and are whole without them - then they reveal their true self. Just saw this with a seemingly caring colleague, whose kindness evaporated quite definitely as soon as I refused this persons coercive / intrusive 'care'. Quite scary to see! Especially as this person has their unquestioning believers, who they are now spinning against me. Typical right, of classical narcissm!
My mom was a narcissist and similar too except she was jealous I had friends and was friendly towards them.
"Why dont you smile at me like you smile at your friends??" Bitch, beacause you make me so miserable lol.
She wouldn't let me hang out with them unless I did what she wanted and it always came with conditions.
Damnnnn! This sounds like my childhood. Mind blown.
Passive aggressiveness is a weak person’s way to win power without risking anything. Cowardly.
Brilliant speech. This describes my mother perfectly. When I pulled back the blankets on her behavior, she disowned me, including getting a restraining order against me. That was honestly, the best gift she ever gave to me, and I haven't had any contact with her in over 13 years :)
Drama Triangle: Narcissist, Victim and Rescuer is the Ego. Usually, we oscillate back and forth between the roles. Just as he explains, his mother played the Rescuer for his friend, and became the Narcissist when he made one mistake. And she was the Victim of his father.
You are so professional You clear many things up for me Thank you
Thank you, for this bright analysis and for giving real-life examples which makes it much more useful and understandable.
This overt-covert-father-mother alignment is so familiar to me, I know what you are talking about....
I like how you notice that the mother is stuck in an upper age development compared to the overt father and this gives her a little more advantage and a little more conscious to be able to analyze and manipulate the father, playing the "death" opossum.
* Also they had strong co-dependence- it is possible one of them not to be narc but to have narc tendencies and to develop through the years strong dependencies because of the organic narc.
I have been so frustrated with the Covert Narcissist description, because nearly everything I read or listened to that attempted to explain this thing *described every shy, introverted, socially awkward, sensitive, damaged person we have ever met, pretty much*. And I think this has been misguided and will contribute to more stigma against the shy, awkward, introverted and traumatized. I have found a few UA-camrs who have explained it in a way that makes sense. I think your video does a good job. It is Narcissism, it is just a matter of the proportion of Overt and Covert tactics.
parallel universes man, woe to he/she that is the progeny of a pair of narcs. My 79 year old narc mother has collaborated with my narc ex in order to attempt to break me down. The abuse I suffered from my parents allowed my ex to quickly figure out how to make me react in inappropriately and thus I went from being the scapegoated child in my family of origin to being the "angry" father, and the truth is I was and am at times still quite angry. I was abused silly, literally. My cognitive skills were compromised and I was likely the teacher's worst nightmare in most of my school days. I had no self esteem and thus fell hard any time someone paid any attention to me. I'm trying to heal, to move forward and I have to some degree done just that. I'm going to tell my story. I have no reason to fabricate anything; as it is my story like so many is crazier than any fiction. I'm just great full that I survived as I have lived through some very difficult times and come to see that all of this craziness never had anything to do with me being a 'bad' person. I've learned to recognize toxicity in its many forms and learned to keep those types out of my like. My hope is that this subject become more mainstream and that more people recoknize that they're in 'no win' situations/relationships and will begin to see that only chance for salvation is to remove all toxic people from our lives that we are able to and as well to deal with the toxic people that we can't remove from our lives in a far more healthy way, observe, don't absorb, grey rock.
Yep. This helps to clarify that both my parents are and were narcissists. Exact same experience when I chose to distance myself from my mother. Her caring was an act completely .... Total self interest. The much harder part is her tight knit manipulative relationship with my children. This is what really complicates and increases pain 10-fold.
Walk away.
I walked away in 2015 and have carved a life free from drama.
Gerhard Symons , did you walk away from your children?
@@Sparrow0514 I don't have children.
I just walk away from seriously toxic people.
Gerhard Symons, yes, that's a healthy direction to take. Being a parent oneself and the responsibility it entails makes matters much more complicated.
Yeah, virtually every relative I had was very neglectfull and or abusive. Most of them seem to have been very narcassistic towards me also especially my mother. She actually played the MOMMIE DEAREST bit better than MOMMIE dearest.
She didn't have public outbursts like Joan Crawford did. They've destroyed my life.
YES! You are telling my story. It is a strange and even intoxicating feeling to experience such resonance.
I grew up in a very similar family to you. Except my parents stayed in the city … my dad was the overt and mom was the covert. Also … my parents stayed together because my mom had waaaay too much pride (or maybe too much denial?) to ever admit to the outside world that something was wrong. It was all about the show. It really F-ed with my brain and my sense of reality. My father believed in corporeal punishment - he really thought that’s what was best for children. He was so outrageous. Ridiculous. Overt narcissists are stunted in toddlerhood. And he was proud of it!
Brilliant analysis of an overt/covert narcistist. Very good examples of their behaviour. Well done. Continue with those videos you are doing.