How To KILL Your Premise in Under 2 Minutes
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2024
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Also for extra context.
I think Adam being a massive Douche is fine for E1. As Charlie can write that off as him being an exception not the rule.
But when the intro states Heaven is doing this to maintain power... then it's like Adam is the proof that every bad thing Charlie has ever heard about Heaven growing up is true. But we're still going full steam ahead on a plan that Heaven will never agree too as it would rob them of the justification to keep purging Hell.
Maybe that line was a red herring
Also FYI this video is getting some backlash
Plus it’s a story written by I assume Lucifer told to Charlie so maybe there is some missing context?
I'm taking that entire intro story with a giant pinch of salt, I suspect that's just the story Lucifer tells to put himself in the best possible light
I was fully expecting this for a while tho. That Heaven would set arbitrary and unattainable standards for what could qualify a sinner for redemption, after being sent to Hell. I feel like it adds significant interest to how they'll end up 'redeeming' the sinners, or how Heaven and Hell will find equal footing.
Not only that, but Adam proves that being a good person has NO bearing on whether or not a person gets into Heaven.
Yeah which is kinda a let down. I don’t see why making the angels murder happy and narcs has anything to do with well, the reason why sinners get sent to hell in the first place. Okay I get it if they went the biblical route of “well even if you were a good person, but if you didn’t believe then you don’t get in heaven”. But it seems like there’s a writing issue.
We don’t need all the melodrama of heaven being assholes and power hungry if the premise is to rehabilitate sinners. You can’t rehabilitate anyone if the place they are trying to go to has the same personality types as those who get sent to hell
Not necessarily true. Adam is still a good Person, but Viv has stated that a lot of things that’d get a Person sent to Hell in the real World wouldn’t do so in the Hazbin Universe.
@@littlepip4014 Well, we’ve only seen the Angels dealing with Sinners, who are sentenced to an eternal Punishment in Hell. They technically deserve any Punishment that the Angels wish to dole out, even if a second Death weakens the concept of “Hell is forever”.
@@littlepip4014 THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANK YOU!
At first I thought the angels would have a Holier than Thou attitude reflected in their speech and body language. Like, no swearing, using complex words, condescending tone, harsh but true, etc. the moment I hear them swearing my first thought was, they no better than the demon then. It's such a waste of potential.
The angels could still be the villain due to them killing the denizen of hell inhibiting Charlie trying to rehabilitate them, the angels believe in their justice faithfully and Charlie making her own road clash.
The angels don't need to be sympathetic, but understandable. Right now, none of those apply to them.
It all feels like a bait and switch from "Sinners learning how to acknowledge their mistakes, repent, and earn redemption" to "It's actually war."
we'll learn how it goes from charlie being pacificstic to preparing for battle. tis likely cause she learns that Adam plans on complete genocide of the sinners as retribution for the death of his exorcist. other elements coudl build up from there.
I feel like Charlie is still hoping that if she can improve hell the Angels won't feel the need to kill them.
@@taddad2641
They are definetly cooking something with Charlie for the finale
I just Hope it's good writing and they don't rush it
Ya that’s the whole plot for season 1 is a war between heaven and hell as shone in the trailer
But honestly I hope that Adam and lute don’t die I love them
Oof
This whole situation this whole situation reminds me a lot of The Good Place, another show with a similar premise of bad people having to redeem themselves to be worthy of heaven. So much of what made that show great was how the reveals were paced and the status quo changes that came from them, season one ending on our cast realizing they had been in The Bad Place the whole time, having to pretend they still think they’re in The Good Place in season 2, their time on earth trying to get their loved ones to change in order to make it into The Good Place and the reveal that no one has actually gotten in to The Good Place for nearly 200 years. The show was sold as this selfish disaster of a woman who was accidentally sent to heaven having to grow as a person to blend in and each of the plot twists and status quo shake ups allowed the show to explore more complex questions about what it meant to be a good person. Now imagine if it started in season 2 with the reveal that they were in The Bad Place. So much of the foundation the later seasons were built on would be lost and that’s exactly what watching Hasbin Hotel feels like.
Yeah, the Good Place comparison is a really interesting one here because it’s (sort of) the same basic premise, but one that places the exploration of ethics and the arcs of the characters first. You get the sense that Mike Schur and his writers spent a ton of time learning about their subject matter (moral philosophy) and working through its ramifications in the context of a heaven/hell scenario before ever setting pen to paper.
In contrast, the vibe I got right from the first scene of the pilot was that Hazbin Hotel was a series of cool, edgy character designs first, a cool, edgy premise second, and an attempted examination of that premise a distant third at best. It made for a fun watch but even from that initial pilot, I got the sense that there wouldn’t be enough thematic meat on the bones to sustain much more. I’d love to be proven wrong, but it doesn’t sound like there’s reason to be terribly optimistic.
was looking to see if anyone had made this comment already, I think that's my biggest issue trying to get into this show, The good place exists. I have never seen a show so unabashedly examine the entire concept of "heavan and hell" and I will always compare any show that tries now to the good place. Maybe it's not fair to hazbin but when they seem to be trying to accomplish(at least based on premise) such similar things the comparison is so easy and The Good Place is just better at it in all regards.
@@EldritchFunky funnily enough with the Vaggie reveal now we’ve got another point of comparison in “plot twist a main character is actually from the opposite place they claim to be from.” In The Good Place we’ve gotten to know Micheal and we’ve grown invested in what we believe is his desire to have his first neighborhood work out well, we’ve met Bad Place Demons and we’ve seen just how unrepentantly awful they are. The twist that this kind, bumbling, angelic man is actually a Demon who’s been the chess master playing our leads against each other the whole series is at the same time completely unbelievable but makes perfect sense and Ted Danson’s evil laugh when it’s revealed perfectly sells Micheal’s true nature becoming this iconic climax to the first season. Meanwhile in Hazbin the reveal of Vaggie’s angelic nature comes shoehorned at the end of an (admittedly banger) musical number that’s really 3 musical numbers in a trench coat (Emily and Sera, Hell is Forever Reprise and Angel Just Like Us). On top of that we’ve spent almost no time getting to know Vaggie or the angels so we don’t know enough about either of them to see the contrasts or the similarities between them.
The Good Place is actually One that is Not Obsessed with the Ridiculous Anti-Christian Nonsense of Hazbin Hotel, and instead deals with the Actual Reasons People are in Hell, Namely not as Punishment's for their Bad Deeds, but because They are Bad People. That in itself makes it Vastly Superior.
Helluva Boss and Harbin Hotel have two main worrying recurrences. The first is speed running through plot and character development, and the second is both of the main shows main story engine, the assassins business or the hotel, quickly feel relegated to a side plot.
Yeah so for the hotel itself with redeeming people hasnt really gotten much aside from just the trust thing which wasnt even inside the hotel most of the time
Yeah as much as I enjoy these shows it feels like they both are worried that if they spend more than a moment letting anything breathe that the audience will lose interest. We have patience, we like what you are doing here, you don't need to speedrun everything! Taking a breath and letting your sincerity sit for a bit is fine, I wish I could tell them that and they could just ease up
@ChesireWaltz unfortunately i think its fueled by the network itself since its super common for shows now to be dropped before they can safely finish so they are trying to do as much as possible in fear of being dropped. Im sure they know the fans are paitent we waited 4 years for it after all.
I have no issues with that TBH. I think a show where 75% of the time is devoted to redeeming sinners would get very boring very fast, and would simply turn the show into a sitcom. Same goes for Helluva Boss. I couldn't give 2 shits about the assassination business, and if most of the episodes had that as the premise then it would get old quick. The way both shows stories are progressing are fine considering Hazbin was only given 8 30 min episodes for a full season, and Helluva is only able to make a few episodes a year.
I only really care about the characters and seeing how they develop while dealing with fucked up situation after fucked up situation. That still falls a little flat in both shows, but niether of them are failing to do so either.
@@cocoxcocoa Sure, maybe if it was dealing with it all the time for HB... but out of the seven episodes we've had, only one has been about the original premise. There's too little now.
The hotel ain't trivago no more😔
Aww danmit
Womp womp 😔
I've got the feeling S2 is the second half of S1 like Inside Job. Still Prime is promoting the cartoon alot.
How is this so funny
Are you trivago because you're an hotel or are you hotel because you're trivago
Revealing Heaven and angels right out the gate was a huuuuuuuuuge conceptual mistake.
I was shocked to see they did that. And I worked on the pilot.
@HBon111
honestly prefer it now than way later down the line.
@@sethatkinson7086 wow I don't mean this rudely but I'm really sorry, and curious how it felt to see where the show went? It really feels (in my opinion ofc) that the pilot is a way WAY better story & introduction that the show has failed to deliver in 4 episodes.... Like I don't understand how the hell that happens?
Yeah, in the pilot the angels felt like these mysterious untouchable beings and I honestly really liked that factor
@@brigade7678 I haven't kept up with it, at all. I checked out as soon as the voice acting was covered up by nothing but whoopie cushion SFX... I watched 2 episodes of Helluva and was annoyed at the voice direction. It didn't sound good in my opinion.
Hazbin is a really great project to have worked on. And I'm happy with my work, and the voice cast as well. It's a shame they (I understand production-wise why) were recast. If anyone should have stayed on board it was Kovach, though.
I laughed once I heard they were all replaced. The irony of it. One of the most successful indie projects-- removes all traces of its indie roots.
i also feel like introducing the angels through adam as some immature fuckboy really removed the kind of chilly spooky aura created by the exorcists and stuff. if they were introduced to be more sinister it would make the idea that they are corrupt in a far more threatening way loom over the viewer as they wait for this bigger conflict. but no, viv using half assed rude=funny to make her show character driven in a messy way, strikes again!
I thought the same thing
The worst part is that doing it the right way would require 0 effort
Just copy elves from any fantasy setting
YOU EVEN HAVE ALESTOR AND THAT DEMON SPEAKING OLD ENGLISH, YOU CLEARLY KNOW HOW TO MAKE SCARY CHARACTERS THAT HAVE SOME DIGNITY TO THEM
@@pancytryna9378 To be fair Adam isn't the top villain in the show. The high-ranked angel Sera is (you can see her silhouette behind Adam in the story in the beginning of the Ep 1) and her face was shown in the trailer.
Tho you have to admit Adam is much better this way. I like his funny character
Yes, they should have been introduced as an out-of-touch and holier-than-thou, but still gracious and charitable race of higher beings that secretly looked down on the denizens of Hell, not sexist stereotypes with a giant flashing neon sign reading "Bad Guys" above them.
If you followed Viv's earlier work zoophobia, you know that that comic was infamous for having a plot that went fucking nowhere and just became an excuse to introduce new characters every five seconds, instead of developing the ones already there. We're seeing something similar with helluva boss, and I'm afraid we'll see something similar with hazbin. Viv is a character designer at heart, not a storyteller.
Sounds like Kubo and Bleach...
She makes good plot ideas. She's just not so good at keeping up the story. Like the episodes aren't bad. Despite the stories pit falls. It's still entertaining. I am curious to see how it ends.
so basically act 6 of the webcomic homestuck
@@MatoVucKubo can actually write and is fixing his rushed ending in the anime adaptation he was sick most of the time writing bleach .
Helluva Boss still has hope. Unlike most gay characters in this day and age, the ones in Helluva Boss are fully fleshed out. They're not just "the gay characters", so I don't think the writing team for that show is beyong hope yet.
This, and Adam admitting that the extermination is entertaining to them, and they get excited to do it every year. Why even continue with the hotel when you know they only do it for fun?!
I really think that reveal should have been the season finale, after Charlie has actually started drumming up clients and making progress. Then she'd actually have proof that sinners can change, and the reveal of the extra extermination hits harder after all her hard work.
Well, Adam and the Exorcists may find the Exterminations entertaining, but they also don’t believe that Sinners can be redeemed and that they deserve whatever Punishment they have coming, which is fair. If they see a Sinner get redeemed and still continue with the Extermination Plan, then it would be a different Story. Also, as far as the Show states, nobody even knows *if* Sinners can or cannot be redeemed, so the Hotel should continue, if for no other Reason than to find out whether or not they can.
@Adam-326 but who decides if/when a sinner is redeemed? Is it automatic? Does a high angel, or God have to oversea what happens? I know eventually we're going go to see Sera, a high angel, so I guess we'll just have to see
Agreed that this reveal should have been the season finale, or at least maybe revealed mid-season. Would give the reveal more weight since by that point the audience would be more familiar with the characters and their struggles.
@@aaunyea4799 Yeah, we don’t know how the Process works, so that’s why I’m saying that running the Hotel is still a viable Plan.
That’s a good idea. Maybe you can have a moment where a) Charlie realizes she needs to act outside the system to get justice and b) have everyone she helped rally behind her against the Angels, maybe in an epic battle for the fate of all Hell.
I think it’s a mix of both goals. Hell being overpopulated means more people to rise against heaven so they strike them down to keep them on the back foot. Charlie knows this and is trying to say that if they redeem sinners then Heaven won’t have to be concerned about the overpopulation leading to rebellion and saves her people. Kind of a work around to the obvious answer of just fighting back which could end with even worse results. Heaven just doesn’t care about that and would rather stick to the current way as it works and they are in total control rather than let a variable into the established system
Sounds about right
That's a pretty good take actually.
that's what i thought too! but i think that the viewers knowing heaven doesn't care at all about charlie's project and wants to kill everybody because of what happened still defeats the premise, because the hotel is doomed to fail. how am i supposed to care about it now, you know?
@@brokenmelody6964 The only person whose been told that heaven doesn't care is Charlie, and Charlie is so optimistic that she believes strongly that she'll be able to change their minds. Makes sense to me. How many other heroic tales begin with the stated premise that the big bad evil guy is unstoppable and then the heroes set out to prove the premise wrong?
That was my assumption as well
Yeah, I've been saying this for a while now. Vizviepop is an idea person, not a storyteller. She comes up with and implements multiple ideas that she likes regardless if they make sense for the story or not, which often leans into the latter rather than the former. I'm getting the sense that she's largely making things up on the fly, hence almost all of the important world-building elements coming from podcasts and tweets instead of the actual material. Same problem with Helluva Boss.
Crazy how a show about cartoon devils and angels can make people care this much
agreed except on the last part. It doesn't matter where it comes from, if it's good, it's good.
She's an animator and character designer. Not a writer and specially not a GOOD writer.
Honesy, I kinda have a problem like that too. I like to write, and I have a lot of story ideas. However, I struggle to actually write them effectively sometimes. That's something I'm working on, and I even took a class to help with that. The difference is that I don't publish any of my work, so it's not gonna be up against great literature like Lord of the Rings or To Kill a Mockingbird or other books like that. Now that Viv has a TV show, it's evident how flawed her writing is compared to other shows.
@@jackiesburgersandfries4604I mean, isn't personal investment the point of entertainment? To get people to *care* about the work?
The fact that angels themselves - beings who *were* good enough to be in Heaven in the first place - could be thrown out permanently over an accident...kinda negates the entire possibility that the Hotel could ever help. People who were already in Hell would never make the cut, no matter how much they are redeemed.
.... I didn't even think of it like that, that's such a good point. Unless there is something that makes the human born souls unique, the way sinners can't die unless it's an angel but the hell born can like anyone else, what would keep them fron boomeranging back into hell?
This aged terribly
@@WraithLK Tho, we not know why that certain person happened to be able to do that. Maybe it was the thing that aimed at the person. Which would be very unlucky if that's the case at least if that thing were only usable by that specific someone who used it.
You didn’t get it. You were never gonna get it. They dangle these things in front of you. They tell you, you got a chance, but I’m sorry. It’s a lie because they had already made up their mind and they knew what they were going to do before you walked in the door. You made a mistake and they are never forgetting it. As far as they’re concerned, your mistake is just, it’s who you are. And it’s all you are. And I’m not just talking about the scholarship here, I’m talking about everything. I mean, they’ll smile at you, they’ll pat you on the head, but they are never, ever letting you in. But listen… Listen… It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t because you don’t need them. They’re not going to give it to you? So what? You’re going to take it. You’re going to do whatever it takes. Do you hear me? You are not going to play by the rules. You’re going to go your own way. You’re going to do what they won’t do. You’re going to be smart. You are going to cut corners and you are going to win. Their on the 35th floor? You’re going to be on the 50th floor. You’re going to be looking down on them. And the higher you rise, the more they’re going to hate you. Good. Good! You rub their noses in it. You make them suffer. Because you don’t matter all that much to them. So what? So what? Screw them! Remember the winner takes it all. You understand what I’m trying to tell you, right? All right. All right. Go get them.
exactly!! Biblically, an angel has to make the conscious decision to no longer trust God and worship the Devil, but God doesn't even exist here. this show could be using Good Omens logic, where asking too many questions or making mistakes is what makes you Fall. love viv's creations and all, but she is NOT good at patching up plot-holes or developing a good plot, period.
Collin is the only cherub we’ve seen so far that’s sincere about his job.
You mean heavenly being
@@tweettweetyweetyHe’s a Cherub. Says so in their slogan, bud.
@@ZacharyWrightSnep He is kinda right. Cherubs and Exorcists are different breeds of heavenly beings, and since both the Cherubs and Exorcists are a*holes, Colin is the only Angel we've seen until now that seems genuinely kind.
@@justabraziliandragonborn3642 Eh....most of the cherubs seemed good though.
@@jaydenc367I pegged Cletus as someone who’d want to book it to the hotel after his fall. Wishing to see this trio again because they got caught up in a conflict larger than themselves and really just more fallen in general to be a dual force for redemption and power quo stands.
Adam should've been sort of a "twist villain". When Charlie goes to present her idea, he could go like: "oh yea darling, you're a damn genius", giving Charlie hope and proof that angels are supposedly good, but behind that, Adam thinks about how Charlie's plan would advantage Heaven in a way, that just being revealed later. Then at the end, Charlie realizes that Heaven is shit and tries to come up with something. But they decided to have fun and make Adam a f*ckboy instead
Or just that the system is fucked beyond belief and the existing order needs hell to exist. All of the sinners want to repent to escape the extermination campaigns in hell, only to have it revealed that, well, vanity and egotism are cardinal sins and that an eternity of penance will, in fact, not buy you a ticket back into heaven, because that's what the boss decreed at the beginning of creation.
Like sure, Adam could have been a jerk who personally takes sadistic pleasure, but there could have also been other angels, his direct superiors who were ironclad Lawful Good Seraphim who say that the law is what it is and that they are indeed sorry.
I feel like Adam is used to never having to worry about demons so he doesn't feel the need to lie to her.
They've been going down there and killing centers for centuries and this is the first time one of them has killed an angel.
@@dewaunwarren1we need to remember adam ate the apple i bet his form is like that because of the apple luccifer got him to eat. Weve sern angels b4 n they are nothing like adam.
Adam could agree to charlie plans but he wont as he hates lillith n luccifer
@@dewaunwarren1 that's a good point, didn't think of it. But like, if Charlie's plan worked and advantaged Heaven in a way, allowing Adam to have more killing counts, that would really upgrade his ego. Idk how Heaven works, but even maybe put him at higher ranking. Lmao so wattpad tf
I feel like you can even have it the same way, messing with budging the premise. Have Adam say yes to Charlie's plan at the same time he tells her that they are moving up the purge by six months, that they're willing to accept her proposal because the problem has gotten "so bad". Then you you reveal that they don't actually care about overpopulation, along with the death angel at the end. Charlie retains the urgency of reforming people faster while maintaining hope that it can actually be done, and the audience now goes forward with the tension of having more information than the characters. Every victory a little bitter-sweet.
Biggest flaw is the "angels in heaven are just as bad as the demons in hell" that defeats the purpose of the main theme of hazbin hotel: *REDEMPTION*
Edit: i was wrong heaven is Just flawed they're not as evil as hell is Just a Grey area story about redemption so that extermination is unnececary
Edit again: also the reason why heven being Just as bad as Hell While trying to redeem sinners into heaven as sollution to overpopulation so even the good points that the replies have in my comments falls flat because of vivi's obsession of Making ideas all work at overwhelming rate
@@KalenMilanhmm yknow I think mass extermination of a people group you see as subhuman tends to qualify you as a bad person
@@KalenMilan Well, we actually see more of heaven in episode 6.
Short version: It's case-by-case, but Adam and the exorcists are shown to be outliers. Adam is a grade-a ass mostly because he is convinced of his own moral superiority but actually struggles to define what is "good" about him when questioned, Lute is equally violently convinced of the denizens of hell's "evil" that the idea of sparing one is seen as unforgivable in her eyes, but they are also the worst that heaven has to offer in this regard. Most of heaven didn't even know the exterminations where happening and was horrified to learn about them, the High Seraphim views them only as a necessary evil to prevent an uprising and the only reason gives for not trying to resolve the more systemic problems is a fear that trying would result in those trying falling like Lucifer did, Vaggie *used* to be an exorcist but was made to fall for sparing a demon child, one angel even comes to the conclusion that if redemption is impossible then heaven as a concept is hollow and meaningless.
They're not, we've only seen Adam and his liutenant in the first episode, the idea that all of Heaven is exactly like them is a bit of an early judgement.
Also, redemption isn't so that you get in Heaven. You want to be redeemed because it's the good thing to do, that's good for you and makes you a better person. The pilot even jokingly says this outright "You have no idea this plan of yours even works, you want people to be good, just because??"
Yeah, that's the point. You should be a better person regardless if you get to Heaven or not.
Charlie wants them to be redeemed so that they get to Heaven, true, but that's because Heaven was worried about losing control over Hell due to it's overpopulation. The only reason Heaven is slaughtering sinner is because they were worried there were so many that they could rise up against them. If Charlie manages to lower the population via redemption, then the culling is no longer necessary as Heaven no longer has a reason to be worried about control.
Right now, the show is at a stage where redemption is not proven to work yet, which is good, because you should want to be a good person without eternal life in Heaven being dangled in front of you as a reward. I reckon the first sinner will be redeemed while full well believing that it's impossible to be redeemed, because if the only reason you want to be a good person is to get a reward, you're not really a good person, you're an opportunist.
I think this is why Adam is still in Heaven, beacause he was good during his life and now he can be as evil as he wants, he won't be cast down. This is likely going to change at the end of the show however, with sinners getting redeemed and some people in Heaven getting cast out.
@@KalenMilan i guess your right but hopefully instead of a edgy parody as heaven and hell are pieces of shit people we actually see the Grey area like some angels like the cherubs can be selfish guys at least they help others and save people and maintain the status quo or maybe not all hell denesins are evil pieces of shit or maybe each and every cleanse the angels brings or at least spares sinners who redeems themselves
@@davidbodor1762 true there's like selfish assholes in irl that think being good be rewarded not gonna lie but the Main theme of the show is redemption to save the sinners and demons of hell from being killed yearly
Part of it is that any antagonist is painted so cartoonishly evil, so of course Adam just reveals the whole bit. Not even a facade. Probably my issue with the show so far is just the tone. Like very adult themes, but then the actual presentation of those themes is so cliched, almost childish in its lack of nuance, that even during moments that are clearly meant to be taken seriously, it all just comes off as kind of rote.
It's my problem with "adult" shows in general. One Piece is a shonen - it's meant for teenage boys - and it has a lot of puerile elements, but its handling of child abuse, slavery, government, the conflict between idealistic peacekeepers and the fact that "their side" is causing as many problems, dealing with grief, and even dealing with SA have all been a lot more mature than I've seen from most "adult" shows I've ever seen and this is the happy haha funtime pirate adventure with the clown pirate and the woohoo rubber man. It's like people use the term "adult" or the rating of 18+ to excuse being pretentious while getting away with shock humour so gross and immature it'd make a 14 year old blush.
@@Soitisisit The adult label not mans "it's 100% and extremely deep". The adult label just used because of the word usage and the fact that the show got scenes about porn industry.
You can't really give too much nuance for a 8 episode show with about 25mins per episode. And the 2nd season only got the green light when the 1st season was already half way in into the production, so the author planned for only 8 episodes already.
couldn't agree more
@@Soitisisit shonens are actually more for preteen boys since puberty and shonens don't mix well, but the point is still valid.
Charlie being an idiot seems like a rather consistent thing in this show it seems.
Exactly. I feel like they made Charlie way too much of a pushover considering she's literally the daughter of Lucifer. It's crazy to me how Val can just walk over her when she's leagues above him in terms of power.
@@M4R14H_H the characters even say that they don't buy Charlie as the daughter of Lucifer. Its annoying when bad writing isn't changed but instead pointed out like its now fixed
@@M4R14H_H Also just because Charlie is a pushover, that doesn't make her stupid.
@@M4R14H_HI don't recall that happening. I seem to remember Val being incredibly accommodating and respectful to Charlie's face. It was when he took Angel to his dressing room that he told him to get her out of there in private. And when Charlie went demon mode when they came back out, I don't think she heard their conversation, I think she saw Angel's black eye and was smart enough to know what happened based on context. She left because Angel told her to.
She didn’t seem like idiot in the pilot. In episode 4 she stupid af. But doesn’t that make Vaggie an idiot too for following her.
Yeah that was one of my biggest gripes with the first episode, even more so the fact that Charlie is aware of that the true purpose of the exterminations in hell have nothing to do with overpopulation. With that in mind it destroys the whole idea for the hotel in the first place because she knows that it is all about heaven maintaining power. I think that it underlines the previous problem with the writing of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss. The whole premises are basically tossed out the window already like they are trying to get too much out of the way because they fear that the show will not last for more than a season. Though isn't that kind of counterintuitive since Hazbin Hotel has already been greenlit for a second season before the first season even premiered?
Being greenlit for a second season means jack shit nowadays. Look at how Inside Job was treated
@@yaypeace3792Yeah, it’s more like the first season is broken up into two.
Frankly, this does remind me of shows where they make the villains too evil and try a redemption arc, not only messing with the stakes but also making people realise that there’s only one logical way for the series to progress and, if the story doesn’t, it’ll be something that only be because of the writer’s whims.
Being greenlit for a second season doesn't mean they're completely safe from being shut down beforehand. Look how long it took for Hazbin Hotel to be lifted off the ground in the first place. Yes, the work suffers for it, but I understand why they're rushing things, both shows were done so dirty...
I mean are we sure that it's really about Heaven keeping status quo, power balance? It could also be false
I mean, sinners are dumped into only one ring. And they are limited to it. There will always be a limit of how many sinners can be there.
So is it really a danger to Heaven?
I really dont think so
Charlies mission is about saving her people. She thought that heaven has something against sinners so if they get redeemed they can go to heaven. Heaven maybe wouldnt want to fight anymore.
And even after the meeting with Adam, the chance is still there.
Maybe sinners can stil be redeemed and saved
I dont see where this doesnt make sense
Adam needed to be a season 2 villain! Season 1 could’ve focused on the Vees, on Vox (and maybe Velvette) slandering the Hotel in the public eye, while Valentino was a personal threat in how he harmed Angel Dust. Otherwise, the Hazbin Hotel is a moot point from minute one.
Maybe season 1 could still have the mention that Charlie has a meeting with Heaven in a few months to discuss the project - lending credence to the idea that yeah, Heaven is at least open to the idea of accepting the reformed Sinners. And then, AFTER she’s been putting in the work, once we’ve seen the Hotel guests reconcile personal conflicts and problems…THEN Charlie has her meeting with Adam. It could be a powerful season 1 finale, or it could be a wham opener to season 2.
Hell, you can still have Charlie know Lucifer and Lilith’s opinions on Heaven! But make it clear Charlie does not agree with them because of her strained relationship with her parents. They’ve always been critical of her, so she thinks they’re also being needlessly critical of Heaven, whom Charlie sees as well-intentioned if extreme. Then the idea of fighting Heaven is introduced early, but is still in conflict with Charlie’s future meeting and current plans - sure, her parents SAY Heaven won’t listen, but they’re actually giving Charlie’s plan a shot!
It would make Adam instead being there to increase the Exterminations that much more of a brutal betrayal. Charlie at this point has PROOF that given a safe space, sinners become good people - better, in fact, than some Angels. Adam sucks! But he still gets to genocide her people?
And so, we see Charlie’s ironclad conviction that her people deserve better taken in a new direction. If Heaven won’t let them have that bright future? She’ll TAKE it.
this would have been such a good structure. like having the Vees be the main villians, because then we would also get the world building in hell that we so desperately need! then having adam be the main antagonist of s2 would flow perfectly 😭😭
the only problem is that they probably didn't know they're gonna be allowed to have a season 2 (cause else I can't explain why this season is so fucking rushed). either way I agree with you, it would've been so much better if that was the route they'd go for😭
They should’ve had you in the writers room! Cause like the plot is a mess in the show as is.
The angels definitely needed to be the first seasons focus in my opinion, especially given how the story is playing out currently.
The opening scene does work against the story, but removing that line alone would already make the product way better, as Charlie won't know the true reason for the exterminations.
Sure, Adam disagrees, but he's the opposite of everything Charlie knows heaven to be like, so surely the people in charge there are better, right? We even get to visit heaven, and learn that outside of the exterminators, none of the angels even know that the yearly genocide takes place, which is honestly a genuis move, as that will lead to internal conflict in heaven as well.
There's also the idea that Adam might be reborn in hell now, to contrast Sir Pentious being reborn in heaven, proving that redemption is possible in the first place. Everything in the first season works perfectly, as long as Charlie doesn't KNOW the reasoning behind the exterminations, as then she has a reason to believe in her solution.
Either way, the Vees should NOT have been the primary antagonists of season 1, as they are irrelevant to the overarching goal of the story. The angels ARE the end goal, and should therefore be established as early as possible, so we know what everything is building up towards. The Vees are playing out to be more of a side-quest, and mostly be there for Alastor and Angel down the line.
@@zillvabooo
A24's biggest strength is often its biggest weakness- it doesn't seem to limit its creatives. The question is, did somebody in production sit Viv down and say "you have to fully outline a story that has a beginning, middle, and end"? I guess we'll see if S1 has a full arc
I really think a lot of the stuff they’re doing in these first few episodes should have come later in the show.
Vaggie feeling like she’s nothing without Charlie, *everything* with the Overlords but especially the meeting, the angel killer reveal, even the time limit.
Imagine if Charlie didn’t have that meeting episode 1 and the 6 month time limit wasn’t established right away so she spends the first half or so of the season thinking she has a year. Then (because the 6 months will probably pass within this first season) an episode or two before the finale the timer goes from a bit over 6 months to 1 week, Charlie has a meeting with Adam to talk about it, and THEN we reveal that the redemption is pointless because they hate sinners on principle. You can even have the fact that there’s a dead angel still in the first episode showing Adam and Lute to show their existence and tease at the possibility that there’s something in the works like Lute wanting to go back and kill more people and Adam telling her to be patient or something.
With the Overlords, before the reveal of the new time limit we get to see them through the context of meeting because of Alastor, or even still because of the dead angel, not because of the new time limit. We get this episode to meet the overlords and establish their dynamic, but we don’t learn who killed the angel, again, maybe giving hints that narrows it down but mostly focusing on getting us invested with characters like Zestial and Carmilla. After the deadline is revealed, maybe there’s a meeting of fewer overlords and then we get the reveal of Carmilla being the one who killed the angel. We could even have Alastor saying he thinks he’s figured out who did it but it’s never actually stated/confirmed until this new later episode. And we can still get that duet between Carmilla and Vaggie if in the b-plot of the episode is her struggling with trying to help Charlie with the new 1 week deadline but not being able to actually do anything and feeling awful about that. Instead of her having the feeling of being nothing without Charlie in episode 3, that plot is instead about her not trusting anyone at the hotel besides Charlie and through the trust exercises she sees how the others trust each other and by the end coming to trust at least one other character, maybe Angel Dust.
I realize this is just turning into the idea for a fix-it fanfic, which I’m honestly not opposed to. The show is great when I’m just turning my brain off to just get some fun entertainment without thinking too hard, but when I try to think of it more critically a lot of my thoughts are either about liking the animation and holes in the story I can imagine ways of rewriting.
E
THANK YOU
I personally think the show just needed more episodes in fact so that they could’ve pushed stuff out
@@doku6255 they are getting more episodes... the first season hasn't been released in full yet
Hey don't sell yourself short, even if it seems like a fix-it fanfic to you, the fact that you can see the holes in the stort and can imagine ways of rewriting bits of it so that they fit more neatly and make more sense shows that it isn't just you "making a fanfic" nor just rewriting things because "your way is better" but instead actually putting in effort to see beyond how the story is now and thinking of how it could be done better, without dismissing the principal idea and premise of the show.
It's actually a sign of being good writer to be able to notice flaws and come up with ways to "fix" them without changing the story completely
It's honestly good to see genuine criticism of the shows writing that isn't just the mindless twitter hate. I think even people that really love the show can appreciate this.
I can’t.
I can, despite me loving the show, the characters and especially the music, I still recognize that the story has a lot of problems.
I just hope they are fixed and this show lives up to its full potential
Yeah, the music for me is one of the biggest problems. It's out of place, I don't think they're using it correctly, gives me Disney musical vibes but with curse words. The only 3 songs I have liked are: poison, the one of the losers from the 4th episode and the song of Adam. Apart from that they aren't helpful for the plot and I don't really like the sounds@@Frankly_Amazing2000
I agree. I also think itll be easier to criticize once season 1 is done and we have the full picture of where the story is actually going, because half of it is out now and im still not sure. War, I guess?
I love the show, but i am really not ok with watching it further if it's going to go down a road that just comes off as
"Heaven bad, Hell good" with no deeper side
I'm hoping that it turns out that Luci effectively lied to Charlie, and that Adam and the Exorcists aren't heaven's best and are really just the rejects Heaven keep around to do the dirty work
I want this to be good, and i want the team behind it to take their time, to slow down
The pacing is too fast and we need time to take it easy
The episodes aren't long enough anyways for so many big plot related drops this early on in the show
It's too much at once, and they are damaging the show by treating it like as if they are as limited as the Owl House crew was on their last season
Zoophibia: Supposedly about a human with phobia of animals forced into an office job with talking animals, secretly a vehicle for the high school romance
Helluva Boss: Supposedly about a squad of demonic hitmen, secretly a vehicle for office romance
Hazbin Hotel: Once is an anomaly, twice is a trend, thrice is a pattern Vivzie
Hazbin has yet to demostrate character drama as the focus of its story though. Its still very much story driven rather than character driven, so yet to be a pattern I guess?
This is what happens when you have no clear endgoal to your story
You start fumbling
There is a very obvious end-goal though? The exterminations no longer taking place is exactly that. This is established in the first scene in the pilot lmao
Like I said, I feel like the writing it’s all over the place. Viv really needs to hire more writers because it seems like she could never settle on an idea or premise.
Well knowing Viv she's too stubborn and childish to hire professional writers. Which is why there's only 8 episodes of the first season and god only knows when season 2 will release. A24 really wants to get rid of her. XD
@@CipherRage-tp5ql I don’t know that they really want to get rid of her. I just feel like the characters don’t have the same presence that I did especially Alaistor who is my favorite character. Things were made really random. They expected you to have seen the pilot. And they literally just took the premise of making this into a Broadway show and put it into a cartoon. I love musicals, but they literally made a cartoon into a Broadway show. A Broadway show comes out very different from a musical. And it just doesn’t work. In this context it’s almost distracting. And the songs hold no value they don’t push the story a long. I wish for more dialogue, more character building. It’s just a mess.
@@CipherRage-tp5qlObviously.
@@shortbakedvideos7487like 4 of the songs I remember do push plot and or character tho??? Status Quo, the Vox and Alastor song, pushes it by far the most I think, establishing the conflict between these two and just character for the two. Poison mainly just pushes Angels story but it does push plot loosely. Loser is probably the most character progressing song considering how it is the friendship and Husk and Angel condensed into a song. Respectless is essentially a full plot leap as killing angels is now an option the overlords all know of.
No, who she needs to hire are GOOD writers, not more writers.
I mean if heaven is a dick place (we had a hint with the cherubs) why even bother? That's what irks me personally.
Also they didn't fix the obvious vanishing Vaggie in Charlie's first song despite the trailer making it glaring.
Probably because Heaven is the only place mortals don’t get massacred? It’s also presumably not littered with drugs, degeneracy, violence, and abuse. I’ll be honest with you, I’d much rather be in a place where people are slightly snobbish than be in Los Angeles.
The material conditions of Heaven could still be better than hell.
My only theory is “if you can’t beat em’, join em’”
Ngl heaven is still a good place, until now no one really showed any bad things about it other than the exterminators being verbal dicks to demons (Adam was just nice but honest with Charlie) and the cherubs being punished for causing a fight in a crowded place for no reason that could easily have hurt someone (oh wow someone died after you risked everyone's life? what an "accident")
The emotional and narrative core of what Hazbin looked like it was going to be was summed up perfectly in one little shot from the pilot. When Charlie's having trouble getting her idea off the ground, when it seems like no-one believes in her and like she should give up, and after what a shithead Angel Dust had been that whole episode, there's that one shot where he's been picking on her and she just dejectedly looks away. He laughs, but then has a tiny moment where he feels her pain, he empathizes, and he starts to reach out to comfort her. But something in him stops him, he shrugs, and he walks away.
That's the moment. It tells you all you need to know. Behind all the complexes, habits, and shortcomings, there _is_ something inside these people that you can draw out and use to redeem them. There's a glimmer of a good person in there that you can use to uplift them. It made Charlie's hopes make sense, and validated the premise by knowing that her goals can be accomplished.
But they seemed entirely eager to throw that away in episode 1 of the new season. Heaven isn't "the place where good people go", Adam is just as much of a shithead as anyone in Hell. And there's no transit from one to the other. This isn't Biblical Heaven and Hell, this is more like the DOOM Hell, which is just a place where aliens reside, basically, and other creatures can be surgically and magically transformed into demons.
And, ultimately, that means that the only thing that Hazbin really needs now is Doomguy to clean this mess up.
Honestly, if Doomguy came into the series, I'd watch it.
The pilot for Hazbin is like Star Wars. George Lucas has 1,000 ideas. And it takes a team of 15 people to go "Slow down George. That part is a good nugget. Let's develop that part. The rest is crap." What we're getting now... Are the Star Wars sequels. Lots of spectacle. No substance... A staff that probably has little power to tell her "That idea doesn't work."
Or maybe they had trouble piecing her ideas together under their contract. 🤷
Woah! You worked as voice director on the pilot!
Thats pretty much it. Viv is extremely immature and doesnt accept anyone, much less her staff, telling her that her ideas are shit. Thats probably because she got very popular due to Hazbin and Zoophobia as a teenager and now she got a massive ego.
@@barbararab6390Makes sense. One of the minor bits from Bojack that I always thought was clever covered that you often get stunted when you get famous because you no longer have to try to feel validated. When you have tons of fans treating you like an idol and providing positive reinforcement 24/7 on social media no matter what you do (short of seriously stirring the pot), people often feel like they no longer need to try or improve, because if fans love them, then they're a star and who can question a star?
It ain't like I met Viv personally, so I can't speak on the validity, but it would track with that principle and explain how wonky Helluva Boss Season 2 got. That felt like fanfiction of itself.
and that analogy also applies to the star wars prequels, lots of spectacle and no substance, right?
I'd argue it's more like the Prequels. The Sequels have problems, but they have good bones. On a functional level, they are well made movies, their problem is that they had a nasty habit of going for style and nostalgia over substance."Somehow, Palpatine returned" and whatnot. The prequels, on the other hand, are a much clearer example of what happens when George Lucas' wife isn't on set to tell him no: an underdeveloped cast of thousands, big visual set pieces he doesn't have the technical skill or patience to pull off properly, a bunch of concepts that are just thrown at the audience through dialogue and never properly dramatized, a meandering plot that knows it wants to end on a shot of Darth Vader and the Emperor watching the Death Star being built, but just spins its wheels aimlessly until it's almost at the end and then it has to rush and force everything to get to that desired ending, and awkward unnatural sounding dialogue that was written in one draft and never edited. That describes Hazbin Hotel very well I think.
Hazbin Hotel did the exact same thing it did with Helluva Boss: set up a premise perfectly in the pilot only to toss it aside completely in the official series. Its really frustrating especially since the hotel by itself was already a very interesting concept
It didn't. The point is still to get sinners into Heaven, that's always been the point. I think SC misunderstood that line, because Heaven wanting to maintain control is of course true and Charlie knows this, but the reason they were worried about control IS because of overpopulation. Charlie is trying to introduce a way of maintaining control by reducing population through redemption instead of murder. It's that simple, I don't know how anyone would not get this immediately.
@@davidbodor1762 let's agree to disagree. I've seen up to episode 6 and what is described is what's happening the story at the beginning is how it all goes down. Both shows suffer from there's nothing deep take everything as it's shown. They're basically modern pre-teen shows with an 18+ sicker slapped on (the pre-teen shows I grew up with as a kid in the early 20's where more nuanced and mature that what we have now for adults).
@@marikroyals7111 Honestly, who the hell did expect something deep from Hazbin Hotel if you have seen the pilot? lol
Even the pilot is not deep at all. And 18+ not equals with "it's deep".
@@tovarishcheleonora8542People seem to forget Hazbin Hotel is a comedy show at heart, most of it isn't meant to be taken seriously, you're mostly expected to enjoy your time while laughing off silly stuff like Adam being the " original dick "
@@FlyingForth Exactly. I dare to bet that people who think "18+ marking = deeply serious" are literal children who shouldn't even watch the show in the first place.
The worst part is that "heaven is actually corrupt and bad" is an idea that has been done several times already in other stories. It's boring. Hazbin’s pilot led me to believe their premise would be different.
Hazbin’s Hell is interesting because, from what the pilot and Helluva Boss has shown, Hell is only a crummy place because the people there are crummy to each other; it’s not actually a place designed to torture people.
I assumed Hazbin’s Heaven would use the same idea in the opposite sense, that it’s a nice place simply because people there are nicer to each other, not perfect, but nicer; just like how the people in Hell aren’t completely evil.
The cherubs in Helluva Boss fit this description and reenforced that assumption for me. They aren’t completely good people, but they definitely try to follow a moral code.
That’s why it was jarring for me to see them make Heaven just a bunch of blatantly evil psychopathic murderers. The pilot gave me the impression that because everyone assumes sinners can’t ever change, Heaven exterminates them just out of the necessity to stop overpopulation.
The angels even look like robots, which made me think that they actually were robots that heaven sends down to do the killing for them, meaning they would rather not do it themselves.
If Hazbin’s heaven was actually like that, it would make for a much more interesting story. Heaven, being full of imperfect but good-natured people, would make Charlie a deal: if she can prove that redemption is possible then the exterminations can stop. Then the premise of the show would be “Can Charlie change even one sinner before the next extermination?” It would put the entire focus of the show onto the development of the characters.
I want to watch THAT show. I don’t know why they didn’t go this route.
Considering that Adam is only the leader of the exterminators (who enjoy the killing), it is possible that you could still be right and that heaven as a whole is mostly like how you describe
@@mattoreo5854one of the angels in the trailer seems also very trigger happy. So it seems like all of them like the carnage
I hate this "oh hell is actually the nice place" cliche storyline because it doesnt make much sense unless you show heaven, while being good, it also being extremely nitpicky to justify it. But here it seems like hell is alwful because everyone there is a shithead, and heaven is also like that. So why tf should i as a viewer care about the sinners and the angels? They are all awful. Doesnt matter where the sinners go
This, very much this.
Heaven could also be a good place in the manner of that Heaven is meant to be paradise. They're allowed to have whatever they want if they ask it. While in Hell, they have to steal, work, manipulate, scavenge, trick, etc. to get what they want. Heaven is innately more luxurious so even the "commoners" or whatever the equivalent of a sinner is in Heaven (there's no real word for it), are treated better or on par to an Overlord or Royalty in hell. You could even argue that the people in Heaven are all treated equally and Archangels, Cherubs and such just have more duty and do God's will and tasks out of love for him.
And side rant, it also just feels very insulting to me as a Christian/Catholic person. Christianity is still a religion. It feels like they're taking my religion and going like "Oh yeah? You see this? Yeah, screw all the values and morality you follow of this religion. Your God is evil and so are his followers." Imagine doing the same with Islam or Hinduism.
There's no tact to how it's written and it's misrepresenting what Christianity actually practices and preaches. Even Christians know they're not perfect but they try to improve themselves and make sure they're the best version of themselves. I get that there's been p3dos, crusaders, and other such people who have been Christians but still did terrible stuff but they shouldn't be referred to as what's the standard. I wouldn't mind if they got details about Christianity wrong but were still trying their best to portray it in a respectful manner.
@@kitsunemoon3005 THat is what ruined the story. Im Orthodox and found the story initially compelling, as well as Hulluva Boss. The Cherubs episode made sense, because, they were on the line of being "not good". There is also the parallel of bureacracy vs anarchism, etc.
It was thought out, planned, and carefully done. The Amazon stuff, is rushed, in every aspect, with a heaping dose of "lets crap on them" from the Rayism feminist stuff (yes, we know, Lilith will be the bestest ever, better than God dont you know). They just cant help it, and thus, disenyfied or MSheU-ed Hazbin.
If its online, free, maybe I would continue watching (maybe) but to pay? I pass. Saw the first episodes on a friends Prime account, and it was enough. And I get the feeling that the end message will be that Hell was Heaven all along, a message I feel was never initially part of Viviene's view (even if she and I or you may totally disagree politically, but she did good work when she was the boss, now, not so much). I dont want to get into the political debate (I mean, they disprove their own views, just by how awful their plots are when they inject this stuff in, no matter who does it, how big or small, it all ends up just awful)
Heaven being evil/corrupt throws a lot of wrenches into the show’s premise, it works in Helluva Boss because their goal isn’t to bring sinners to heaven, it’s to send them to hell.
I have to agree that the original pilot is a lot stronger in setting up an interesting situation than what the first episode gave us. Have to see where this train goes.
This is a show that NEEDS a full 20+ episode season. Especially since it has a gigantic build in fanbase that would easily make the money spent worth it, AND its on a major streaming service. Short seasons are killing television
I absolutely agree! A show like Hazbin needs way more episodes given the amount of characters it has. So that their development doesn’t feel rushed and everyone gets a chance to shine.
@@NoNamechan0.0 It sucks that seasons are getting shorter and shorter for shows, but a show that does not have enough time for the amount of characters still needs to learn to cut down on characters and work within the limitations it has.
@@Sone01TheFirstyou can only work with limitations to a point until they start, well, limiting you.
Hazbin Hotel almost certainly deals with a pacing issue, that is partly its own fault, but could certainly be improved if it had more episodes per season.
I can't wait for 5 episode seasons!
I can't wait for 2 episode seasons!
I can't wait for _the_ episode!
Why bother even having seasons anymore? Fuck, man. I wish TV could go back to the way it was in the nineties and early 2000s.
@@Sone01TheFirst "but that means you don't have pointless filler!!!"
I hate that mindset... Some folks act like all fillers are bad adn stupud... but filler can ust allow certain moments to breath while the story takes a bit of a break. It also allows shows to do more with their characters. Heck, Naruto developed a load of characters basically solely in filler episodesbecause the mmanga treated basically anyone but Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi and Gara as filler characters to make up crowds.
20 Episodes, 12 primarily main story related and the others just for other stuff would maybe make for a nice balance. The whole stuff with Adam aside, I'd say Episode 1 is well enough for an episode one... but the others feel like there should be just more stuff between the major events, where we spend more time with the cast and the hotel
I gotta say while the four episodes out right now are actually pretty solid, I can't help but be bothered with the lack of care for some characters. Vaggie's part of the duet (which is her first song btw, not even talking about herself in it) with Carmilla is literally just her talking about defending CHARLIE, being CHARLIE'S protector, staying with CHARLIE forever. In fairness, it's only been 4 episodes, but I genuinely hope that she doesn't get the Millie treatment and the show actually expands her character beyond just being 'Charlie's girlfriend'.
YES!! I love Vaggie and she’s such an interesting character. If she just gets stuck as ‘ Charlie’s protective girlfriend ‘ it would be so disappointing.
Yeeeeah, i'm really worried because people called out Vivziepop before for having very little focus on the female characters in Helluva Boss and her reply being merely 'Oh, we wanted to focus more on the guys in this series, but we'll focus more on the girls in Hazbin hotel'
I did want to give her the benefit of the doubt because i care about both series, but not only is that a nonsense excuse considering you should just do your best to explore all your characters without giving a shit about gender, but you already know that the most interesting characters in Hazbin Hotel are Alastor and Angel Dust anyways.... Truly, it's kinda crazy how much this series are all over the place with the writing
Good episodes but the pacing is a bit too far into overdrive
We're going too fast for the frist season and even for the frist 4 episodes
The team is going too fast, likely cause they want to keep us invested and not be too slow for the story stuff to happen
But thats a problem
A problem helluva boss had as well
Where things just keep stacking up too quickly and your not given time for things to set in, for the world to be explored, for stuff to be hinted at
They are acting like this season is their only shot, like as if they are going to get shot into a Owl House situation and be stuck with only a few episodes if the frist season isn't gripping enough
But by doing so, they are damaging the show, and thats just not ok to me
@@quinnholloway5400 Yeaaah.... Reminder that we had the whole situation where we get to see Stolas emotional and caring father side escalate so much in merely Episode 2 of the series.... When that really should've been something they had to save for way later ....
Truly, it's such a difficult thing when it comes to Indie series because if the audience isn't invested, you lose all funding, so you gotta do your hardest and that's a very tough line to balance... But Hazbin hotel has already been picked up, so they can't even use that excuse anymore .... Old habits die hard, i guess, eh-?
I have no context at all and really shouldn't be commenting but it sounds like the issue is that Vaggie can only see herself as Charlie's girlfriend opening to an arc where Vaggie comes into being Vaggie but also Charlie's Girlfriend
Honestly, it would've been much better if Hazbin was focused on its main characters, especially Anger, Husk, Alastor, and Veggie getting (or trying to get in Alastor's case... I don't think he's saveable tbh) therapy, Charlie trying to be better and prove her worth to her parents and that good /is/ worth it, and the whole message would've been about how traumas affect people, their souls/mental health, and how an environment that encourages self-destructive behavior worsens-, while an environment that encourages healing betters the effects of that. It could've been an amazing show about the human psyche and basically a character-drama with a smaller setting.
While Helluva could've had a broader world-building and less serious plot that revolves around action more so than its characters.
Basically, Hazbin Hotel should've been a psychological character-drama, while Helluva Boss should've been a satirical action-comedy that makes fun of society and humanity. But no!
(I'm honestly so sick of indie creators having a good premise for a project, then working on it for ages only to fall flat on their faces with it...)
Who is Anger and Veggie?
@@itsonlycana *Angel, sorry, typo.
And Veggie is Charlie's girlfriend... at least that was her name in the pilot...
@@Aqua-vf3jrVaggie
@@zillva Sh!t, thank you! It's been a while since I last watched the pilot ^^'
Would that mean getting rid of Blitzos backstory? How failing relationships? His whole deal with Stolas
If there’s anything Hazbin and Helluva have proven, it’s that filler episodes are more important than we think lol
So far, my biggest issue with Hazbin Hotel has been (lol) how the Pilot pulled off MUCH of what these 4 initial episodes tried to do a lot better in one way or another. A particular big example of that being the introduction and Charlie's "I Want" song from episode
They both try to explain what the Extermination is and they both set up Charlie as someone who is optimistic to an unreasonable level in her goal to try and save sinners from it. But in the show, the dystopian state that Hell finds itself in after an Extermination is a lot more tame than the in the imagery from the Pilot, you don't get to see a lot of Charlie's inner struggle with being a failure and how she tires uses the optimism more as a defense/coping mechanism anytime things start getting real and she doesn't behave as passionately anymore now that her energetic persona has been somewhat turned down.
Probably because the pilot was written by actual competent writers (Dave and Ken). Hazbin the series is just more Helluva, down to Viv and Adam being the writers.
I agree. My biggest problem is the pilot introduces Husk, Niffty and especially Alastor way better than the actual show. That, and that the pilot just looks better.
@@11th-lemonno? The pilot doesnt look better lol. But yeah i think they stated that the pilot is basically and episode 1 of the series
@@user-uv6qu3wb5d Eh, comparisons between the appearances of the pilot and the show are subjective.
Where was is stated that the pilot is meant to be episode 0?
Hazbin Hotel has a great potential but the writing is way too inconsistent.
The show has a great concept and I really liked the pilot. It has a great potential but I really wish the writing was better. I hope the writers listen to the criticism and they improve the writing. It can be a amazing show if they are willing to listen to the criticism.
I hope they give the characters more time to shine. We need to have a reason to care about the characters. Some characters need more development. The show is not giving them enough time to develop them.
I'm not sure that's up to them, the show is only getting 16 episodes total so they gotta move quick to cover everything
@@roxycauldwell544 That's still up to them tho. A good writer should be able to adapt their stories to the limitations that are imposed on them. You say " 16 episodes to cover everything", but what this "everything" means is up to the writers. Of course they have a lot of ideas and would like to include most of them. But they shouldn't just try to fit everything in 16 episodes if it doesn't fit or doesn't make for a good result. They should think about what ideas are really important and nail the execution of those in a first place. Few well executed ideas are better than an overload of mid executed ones. If there isn't enough time, they should learn to drop what's not important and focus on the essentials in order to make a good show (We need to have a reason to care, we need to have character with more development et cetera, it's the more important than fitting everything ) . And who knows, if they make a good show they could be renewed and become able to put all those non-used ideas in future episodes.
@@thiagodecock7293 Sadly Viv time and time again proved herself to be VERY impatient.
Sadly, viv is very impatient and don’t take too kindly with any form of criticism even if it isn’t even meant to be.
From what I've seen Viv is the primary writer and director. So far it's pretty meh. If she cares about her show and wants it to thrive she should let A24 hire more experienced director and writers while Viv gives them the plot points.
Ah, I feel great satisfaction from seeing everyone who just watched episode 5 and 6 coming back to comment on this video. 😌
By the final episode i do feel the show recovered from episode 1 and has set up an interesting enough world/plot that is interesting.
Especially with Sera who we currently have no idea how she'll react to Sir Pentious and I feel its dripping full of potential; will she be helpful? try to hide the truth?
Revealing the angels didn't agree on the purging was entirely nessasery to save the episode.
Counterpoint: why is Sera having tea and filing taxes with Emily. I get its to show both parties reacting to a redeemed sinner, but they should be at complete odds
You're right the show is rife with potential, but the writing is so amateur I cant believe its got such production value
An alternative could be to double down, and have the angels point out the horrible deeds that sinners perform consistently, perhaps even showing their sins from their mortal lives as evidence for them having been evil from the start and therefore unsaveable.
Heck you could even write Adam as having *tried* to "redeem" sinners before, only for that effort to end up backfiring horribly, resulting in his current attitude toward sinners.
I think the main issue with Hazbin's writing is that it's been in production for so long. You see the same sort of issues with video games with long and/or complicated production histories - the developers get so used to the game and its world that it gets hard to discern how it will be experienced by a pair of almost completely fresh eyes. I think we're seeing the storytelling equivalent of that with Hazbin. It's a solvable problem, you just need to get some trustworthy fresh eyes to come take a look and give you feedback on how much sense it makes to them, but this is also where the overwhelming amount of negative feedback and ill will this show has gotten over the years is working against it. When you're getting that level of flack over something before it's even out, it gets harder and harder to ask for new help, because you're so tired of getting crap over this thing you love and are working hard on. So I kinda get why this option might not have been taken, even thought it's generally a really good idea to do.
Hazbin Hotel is definietly super overbaked, character concepts started back in like 2012 and characters switched all kinds of pairings, designs, sexualities. I find it weirdly enjoyable how over thought out everything is at this point because it feels like it has passion and funky decisions, but thats intimidating and frustrating to a lot of people.
@@rachelmayes3064 It's definitely still a fascinating show, one that's going to be a great resource for both bad and good examples for future animators and cartoonists. My biggest hope is that, no matter how shaky the current trajectory is, it manages to at least stick the landing solidly. And I feel it's a reasonable thing to hope for - Helluva Boss has its own issues, some similar to Hazbin's, but MAN did it stick the landing for season 1!
Show is just bad. Viv is just a dumb woman. Its not more complicated than that. Don't make it more than it is.
@@rachelmayes3064leftists cant make anything work lol, too concerned with gender identities, shitty self inserts and their personal mental issues to come up with an actual story
Charlie’s intentions went from “let’s be better people” to “let’s switch teams, their’s is more OP than ours”
Or an even worse "Why rule in hell if I can rule in heaven?" The only way to get people in is to humiliate yourself until someone is 'good' enough to be let in? Well, *sometimes you have to crawl on broken glass, to be the one who laughs last.*
What? No, she wants her people to not die, that's always been her motivation.
episode 8 be like
hazbin hotel fans got dragged through the trenches and when they finally made it through the gore, muck, and blood, they were given a participation award and a 1.8% veteran's discount.
please have mercy on the hazbin hotel fans out there they need it
I want to, but it's hard when criticizing the show even a little results in over a dozen people demanding your head on a plate.
The show already feels like Rick & Morty season 5 of stale writing and it is in its 1st season
Lmao
Are you kidding? Not even close, the show is incredible and the writing is incredible. Most people love it as they should.
@@WickedBowserJr 💀
@@WickedBowserJrpeople consider the show incredible cause they were starved of actual good content during the strike. The shows pacing, it’s very quick reveal and solving of its problems- the lack of true fleshing out of the residents of the hotel.
It’s all over the place and frankly didn’t deserve a second season.
Between Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel, at this point, whatever Vivzipop makes, I'll just assume the main premise will fade away to deal with interpersonal drama and daddy issues.
Or "relationships" because Helluva boss really focuses a lot on that. Especially Biltzo and Stolas.
I'm legit wondering now what was the main premise of HB
Did it even have one
@@pancytryna9378 I assumed it existed to be a 'workplace comedy in hell' that fleshes out the setting so Hasbin Hotel has more room to focus on it's plot without the need to explain setting elements.
@@Sorain1
Oh.
Yeah that thing about it showing us some more hell I thought that too
Did it do that tho idk
@@pancytryna9378pretty much, gave decent enough information about the other rings and the characters of the deadly sins.
It’s the fact that Helluva Boss’s premise also got screwed over during season 1. That show was supposed to be about imps killing mortals but it turned into a melodramatic soap opera with Stolas x Blitz.
It’s not a Hazbin Hotel problem, it’s a Vivziepop writing problem
Edit: this is my OPINION, SHIT
Now it's not even about Blitzo and Stolas, but about Fizz and Ozzie.
It’s totally fine for a show to turn into something else besides the original premise. The issue here is though they’re probably going to treat it like some big twist, even though they already told us in episode one.
Personally I like the way hellova is turning out (before like the second half of the second season...)
We're probably going back at some point. We still have build up regarding episode 6 and the humans realising that demons really do exist
A show just about imps killing people would get boring over time. You're literally saying the problem is she expanded on the characters.
That’s the point though. It’s like the premise of Helluva Boss it was pitched as being a story of a company of Imps murdering for sinners. It quickly stopped being about that. IMP is just a plot device for the real story just like The Hotel is a Plot Device for the real story
I think you're losing sight of what a plot is here, because in both cases the shows lost their core premise and what should be propelling their story forwards to instead promoting character interactions and development. But both of those are naturally advanced BY your story and putting characters in motivation-relevant situations with each other. Failing that and its like trying to roleplay in a game that doesnt have a GM. You just spin your wheels constantly interacting with each other without being faced with anything new or shocking to shake the status quo
As the Voice Director for the pilot: I approve this message.
Were you actually the voice director?
Hey, can you tell me I'm not crazy and Alestor sounds less radioey in the new version
@@pancytryna9378he sounded way better in the pilot and while Keith David is amazing the original fits far better
@@cdangelo1843 Yeah he is, it is credited on imdb.
@@pancytryna9378 I agree on them turning it down... It was something I objected to from the start, as well.
I remember my friend and i writing on a story called "no room in hell" (we stopped when hazbin pilot was released out of fear it might be called a rip off) where heaven realizes hell is approaching the "if there is no room in hell the dead will walk the earth" mark and enforced upon hell to give sinners who were punished for a reasonable amount of time a second chance on earth in a new slate and free of memories of the past.
Hell actually is against letting the harvested souls go and only agrees to the deal because they hope through that to find out how the forces of heaven are so strong against hellspawns.
it was basically the premise and the protags are demons and angels being forced to work together while also spying on each other and meeting half way sometimes. While the demons do their best to make sinners in the redemption program relapse or at least attempt to
You should keep writing that story
You should keep working on that. Just because there's some similarities doesn't mean it isn't worth making.
That sounds really interesting!
Keep writing the story it sounds lit!
I'll echo the others in this thread: keep going! That sounds like a very interesting premise, with a real reason for both sides to collaborate to a degree, and a real concept of redemption.
I think is pretty safe to say that Viv has issues with tackling the premises of heir own shows.
in Hazbin Hotel, The hotel not being a central point, in favor of the heaven vs hell conflict.
in Helluva Boss , the business factor is also sidelined, considering that most of the show is about the character's personal lives.
Most comedic shows wait for that to happen. Sgt. Frog had a bunch of early epsidoes be about the alien frogs attempting to take over the earth. They tried to take over the earth slightly less often in later seasons and had epsidoes where they goofed off . The joke is they are incompetent at their jobs so they are basically harmless.
@icecreamhero2375 in the first season tho?
@@dragonbones3885 That's exactly why its a problem. You're supposed to get weird in season 3 once we are all used to the characters.
I think that it's a good thing that Helluva Boss went in that direction. Two seasons of just IMPs doing hit jobs would've been dull. I kind of don't see how Hazbin could NOT lead to the heaven vs hell conflict anyway. If not cuz of slayed angel, then just simply out of angels arrogance and stubbornness.
@@masido443 Personally I think it's a really bad premise. If they kill someone won't they just end up in hell. It makes no sense. I only watched the pilot and thought it was terrible. I think it would have been better if they were incompetent humans and took out the demon aspect.
~~2 weeks later~~
I see your well-researched argument and raise you one snakey boi
THANK you!
so like, why have Adam straight up say "nah mate I want you all dead" in the very first episode, instead of having that be a plot twist near or at the final season, or even later on, it's like if in The Sixth Sense, Cole Sear just straight up told Vincent Grey that he's dead in their first conversation, meaning there is no suprise that comes within the story
WHAT A TWEEEEST
Fr. The first episode of hazbin should have been the series finale or something. Why does the entire cast act like they're friends from day 1
Because not everything has to be a twist. Adam is the antagonist, a straight up antagonist. I am so fucking sick of twist villains EVERYWHERE. Every goddamn Disney movie crammed in a twist villain, fucking Frozen was possibly the worst offender of this.
No, fuck the twist villain BS, let Adam be just the absolute worst from the start.
@@davidbodor1762 It doesn't work here because it just reveals that he's a dumbass whose skull is thicker than steel
@@davidbodor1762 sure, twist villains are overdone, but the way Harbin has done it, there's basically no stakes or tension or story engine or anything, its just "oh okay, what's the point of the show then?"
To be fair, in Chalies points of view, the project still makes sense (despite this is extremely optimistic, but this is her character idea). Probably she thinks, that there is no need for extermination, when the sinners could join heaven and with that, strengthening heavens position in the long run. Gaining more people (more possible soldiers against hells elites and the hellborn demons) they can use, instant of using valuable resources to kill them. Despite the meeting with Adam showed that such a thing is highly unlikely, Charlies optimistic view of the situation would lead her to the conclusion, that Adam is a isolated case in the angels ranks. Just my thoughts, trying to see the other view in this discussion.
This ❤
So is this to say you think she's fundamentally aligned against Hell and the element of darkness? I guess that makes sense, she does belong more in Heaven's alignment than Hell, since, in this show, Charlie seems to refer to the angels as "worshipping good" itself, like the very concept of goodness is in their court exclusively. But that does effectively make her a traitor and a threat to anyone anti-heaven, right? For her to "strengthen heaven" implies the weakening of Hell, like an act of appeasement? Why are the characters not responding like they understand she's effectively an apologist? I just feel like they're not conveying very well that she considers herself aligned with Heaven's desire to defeat darkness if that IS her core intent. It feels very unclear to me where she aligns herself in that wider dichotomy. You'd think they'd portray her as borderline religious, very pro-heaven, if that were the case. Without that sense of being on team Heaven, its too vague why she wants to send sinners up to where the mass murderers come from. Especially since she clearly knows they're effectively an enemy country. I think it would really improve her character to have her just bite the bullet and say she thinks the angels are the good guys by comparison even IF they slaughter sinners, because they're fighting for a greater good, but that might frame her as a bit sinister.
@ab.6223 Charlie probably hopes that the angels acknowledge that they were mistaken with the entire slaughter thing, when they see that everyone can ne better. Even if she saw the reality, she is naive and doesn't want to realise, that heaven itself is not interested in change.
@@ab.6223 Well, the Angels *are* the good Guys, at least so far. Though, I don’t think the OP was looking into it that deeply. I think that he was saying that if Heaven performs Exterminations because Hell is (or could become) too powerful, sending Sinners to Heaven to “strengthen their Ranks”, so to speak, would render the Exterminations unnecessary. They would then be able to negotiate as Equals, since neither Side would be able to completely annihilate the other.
Not only do angels kill demons so don’t rise up against them but it’s also fun for them.
When I watched the first episode I was like, "isn't this just the climax of the whole show?" Because imagine Charlie trying so hard to get people up to heaven, people finally start getting on her side, her father finally extends some modicum of support to her cause, only for her to find a selfish, genocidal, egotistical, and completely evil form of heaven. A plot twist that absolutely dashes the whole point of her efforts.
Because the episode we were shown had two points, heaven is the goal, and you have to better yourself in order to get that (good) goal.
This pilot episode reveals to charlie that the fight isn't possible. She doesn't even get a whisper of success in her lawful good personality/aspirations, because the only way to solve this, now, is a violent revolution.
Edit: here is another point. If you show those types of mean selfish angelic characters, as long as they are foot soldiers, or not important, the entirety of heaven does have plausible deniability. Because being good is a complex topic. That jump in logic is justifiable as long as the leaders of heaven are depicted as good, or better yet, don't actually show up. Revealing your hand the FIRST EPISODE, using such an important character in the FIRST EPISODE, is the sort of thing even a hobbyist DM wouldn't do. You can communicate similar information, or any information you want, about heaven with a less significant character.
Helluva boss did a good job with this. The core difference is stolas is part of the main cast, not the main antagonist.
I will repeat my point here. First episode should have had Sera in it. And Adam should have been introduced in 6. If you swap them you make an easy fix. But I guess Viv wanted crude frat boy misogynistic villain as representative of heaven antagonist. Proves again artists are not writers. Also as hobbyist GM I thank you for giving us more credit then this joke of a plot twist
@@mrksimka1159 introducing Sera might have been a better idea, yea. Here's the problem, I don't even know why there were two meetings with heaven in the season? Like Charlie goes, "my dad gave me this meeting so I can finally take advantage of this!" Then a few episodes later she's like, "my dad needs to give me a meeting I can take advantage of!" It's repetitive, I don't know why the first episode is the way that it is.
Another thing, Viv is a writer. She and her team have done a wonderful job! My guess is that the strain of contracting with a big company contorted their ideas. With Helluva Boss, they can pretty much do whatever they want however they want it, but with Prime, you only get so many episodes (and probably more contractual obligations) despite how many ideas you have or want to depict. I don't want it to seem like I'm hating on her team, or undermining them. I just don't understand the first episode, something better could have been written. EVERY writer and artist will encounter that problem despite how good they are.
@@jewels3400 Probably in the same season due to the fact they probably didn't think season 2 would be greenlit, so they wanted to get as much of a "complete" story in the first season as possible. Probably also the reason why its so fast paced as well.
I personally DO think Adam should have been introduced just when he was, so long as Charlie doesn't know the extermination is due to fear of an uprising.
I can honestly see how Charlie would still believe in her idea of the Hotel; it’s the only “perfect” solution, even if it is super unrealistic, and she just needs to prove that sinners can be good and really aren’t a threat to heaven. That’s why the show presents us with these conflicting points, to make sure we *know* it’s unrealistic. I feel like it’s just building up to have Charlie realize that being “nice” isn’t what makes a person good, and that to uphold what is good, you need to stand up and protect it.
The only reason Heaven was worried about control in Hell IS because of overpopulation. The idea that these two problems are separate is ridiculous, they're the same problem. Charlie is trying to show an alternative way to fixing the overpopulation problem. It doesn't matter HOW the population goes down, either way, Heaven wouldn't be threatened by Hells numbers. Charlie just wants a more humane way to reduce the numbers than what Adam is doing.
only way I can see the Hotel concept being revived atm is if the war is pulled off, it falls apart quickly, and to maintain order the angels backpedal on their original stance and take Charlie up on her offer, formally placing the Hotel as in charge of determining whether extinctions happen or not through redemption programs
Honestly, when I first watched the pilot, I thought the hotel would double as a safe haven during exterminations.
Think about, what better place for protection against the exterminators (or overlords) than a place under Lucifer's daughter's protection.
Or Charlie could just be delusional
@@artslife4424 "Lucifer delusional daughter"-Alastor.
@patrickcarter2829 that's what I always thought. It makes sense since Charlie herself is off limits
@@patrickcarter2829 I could see this being something that Heaven would agree to, except the ongoing theme of Hell being the end of the line. Alastor said it best in the Pilot: The chance they had was the life they lived. Adam mirrors this sentiment in his song, where Hell is supposed to suck.
And it does. The sinners are allowed to indulge in their vices, until the poison drowns them.
Viv and the rest of the staff’s “WHAT IF GOD AND HEAVEN… LE BAD” mindset really got the best of them. Thing is, if you want to make that premise, fucking go for it! But it doesn’t work on top of something like this.
The staff doesn’t realize that doubling down on the Reddit Arr Slash Atheism route makes the setting way more bleak than having Heaven be the better place or at least just neutral. Characters are going to get suckered into aiming for a better life only to find out it was never acheivable and that the people that supposedly help them are enlisting them in the fucking Apocalypse war. Ironically, this premise makes Hell just as oppressive to humans as Heaven is.
You have no idea what you are talking about. This isn't what the show is about, Heaven isn't evil, you're completely misunderstanding the show.
@@davidbodor1762 No, they are right. Largely the entire premise is that Heaven are hypocrites and their good moral principles don't exist.
@@LaFonteCheVi That's blatantly false, we literally see this proven wrong in ep6.
The point is there were good people in life who in death became evil and bad people in life who in Hell changed for the better and as such Hell and Heaven should not be forever. Adam is full evil now, so he's 120% going to be cast out from Heaven by the end of the show, and some sinners will likely get into Heaven, probably Angeldust.
The fact that hell is overpopulated is a pretty good tongue in cheek gag
The whole world building is the problem.
A bit of a read for anyone interested:
First, let me state that I really liked the premise. I am a sucker for "biblical inspired" storytelling anyway. Religious scriptures give such an amazing base for building upon it. Its been done before over and over again. Supernatural, Good Omens, Lucifer to name a few. (And a shit ton of anime)
Now here in Hazbin Hotel and by extension Helluva Boss, hell are seemingly is like... earth. They have jobs, houses, cars.... basically a society and a relatively normal life. They only all just live in the "really bad part of town" which is everywhere. Demons serve no function other than just exist. The worst of the worst even have a massive blast being overlords and all which defeats the whole purpose of hell anyway...
Now heaven we haven't seen yet. But the angels we have. And they are swearing, loud and seemingly a**holes which is fine, but I see basically no distinction between them and the demons. even visually.
Now the re-telling from Adam and Eve is interesting and it might be a plot point later (I hope) but the whole misunderstood trope is so overdone at this point. uwu cute Lucifer wrongfully cast out when he is in universe the RULER OF PRIDE. The show just started and there are so many issues with it.
I really wanted to love it. I adore these stories so much, I love how people interpret the concepts and how deep they go into the material. But a part of me, and I am by no means religious mind you, wanted to have Hazbin to be a bit more ..."accurate"? I'm not saying "pull a Prince of Egypt, tell the story 1:1 accurate". I'm saying they seemingly try to flip the scrip completely when a more nuanced approach is more interesting. "Heaven bad Hell and demons actually good" okay cool, but what's then the reason for these places to exist then? Is God bad then and just throws people to hell that don't subscribe to Their faith? Then why are there actually only bad people in Hell? Are Atheists also there and shouldn't they have RUSHED the Hotel? And if nobody wants to leave is it actually that bad? You cant tell me that some narcissist A-Hole doest want to go to the nice place if Hell is such torture.
I have so many thoughts on this but I rambled for too long already.
TLDR: World-building is contradictory and opens too many questions. for a setting based on "Bible-Lore" they changed so much and explained too little of it.
Edit: while this comment is outdated now (written before E5) since the new episodes released and actually address some of my concerns, I still stand by my main point that I don't think the world building is working fully but good on the writers actually to address the issues and I admit I do like some of the changes. It makes more sense now for sure, pretty glad it does. Personally I'm still not a fan with some choices but admittedly it got much better.
I'm with you.
I really love your approach to the setting and would love to hear you expand on your thoughts a bit more
Those are really good questions to ask, since Hell-Heaven theme is the main gimmick of the series and supposedly the core engine for all the stuff happening there, but isn't developed enough in those parts that are essential for plots and characters to function
Please, keep it up!
@@katarina_play9816 thanks for reading, I like to ramble about these topics a lot and I am surprised on how many saw that comment already haha.
As you said, the Heaven-Hell gimmic is underdeveloped at best or overcomplicated at worst. A concept of Heaven and Hell sounds so simple but if you think about it, you really need to have a rigid system otherwise too many questions arise. The goals and motivations for each character aside and just viewing the setting the main questions I ask myself are:
1) What determines where the human soul goes? What makes a person a sinner.
2) What are the angels and what are the demons really. What's their purpose
3) What power dynamic do they(Heaven and Hell) hold over each other. "Heaven staying in Power" what power? The eradications are just for fun apparently. So what's the actual politics here?
4) How can a place that was meant for eternal damnation of all sin even reach overpopulation. That's just poor design literally and in writing.
5) Why are sinners in just one part of Hell. (Lore from Viv) What's the point for the other "Rings".
6) Is there a God and where or what are they?
7) What is heaven like and how is order kept. If just believers go there for example. there are some baaaaad believers. And if just "good people are there"... well there is no such thing as an "all good person". So what's the threshold? if its really that easy as stealing gum as a kid, is heaven empty? (that would be quite interesting actually)
6) Again because it bugs me so much: Why is nobody actually suffering in a place of eternal damnation? The worst scum is treating the not so bad sinners as playthings. And that circles back to 1:
What makes people go to hell?
Some of these questions may or may not be answered, and some are maybe a little too nitpicky but I feel like a world built like this is already wobbly.
Character wise now there are some issues with the retelling of the Adam and Eve story but that story Charlie reads might be wrong to begin with so no notes here.
There are some personal gripes I have with the setting that are completely subjective but annoy me so much:
Not a huuuge fan of the beginning retelling and making Adam such a cartoonish bad person, when they were literally created by heaven and evil hasn't even entered them yet. So what is it? Controlling/misogynistic people aren't bad? Besides, Lucifer is being ret-conned as the angel of pride seemingly. Their whole deal is that they saw humans beneath them and themselves on par with God. >>"My feet aren't that much smaller" as he puts his foot in the prints left behind by god
I mean original stories arent new
I agree with you but i'll throw it out there, pride can mean many things, he was too proud to let something he believed in go damn the consequences, sometimes pride can be right and sometimes it can be awful and misplaced. I think it's good to show both sides of pride in a nuanced story, I'm hoping outside of Charlies view we get to see a more nuanced Lucifer that isn't totally uwu.
As a writer my biggest fucking gripe about Hazbin Hotel in its current iteration is how CLEAR it is to me that they wrote this whole story from the top down rather than from the bottom up, violating one of the BIGGEST ‘rules’ when writing: TO START WITH THE END IN MIND. It feels like they had NO idea where they wanted this story to go so they just wrote it linearly beginning to end, and as their ideas changed, they ran with them. Of course this all led to glaring problems like this one that completely undermine the whole narrative because where they ended up didn’t line up with where they started.
As a fellow writer, this is the first time I’ve ever heard that tip so THANK YOU
Lol shut up. Writers don’t comment on youtube vids. You mean as someone who writes fanfic and doesn’t make a a dime off of writing…
Thank you I couldn't help but think of manga's I've read and reading the interviews with the mangaka. Most if not all of the stories have an established ending. While there may be small changes here, the story remains consistent to it's ending.
Few times i've seen it work but many more times I've seen it crash and burn. The writers and creators of Star vs are proud they never knew how it was going to end... look how that ending turned out.
@@Rubin_RubiniaYour last point though, The pilot and first episode always have to begin in the same place, they are seprate entities. The pilot was basically purely made to get the show a chance at being made but when the show gets picked up it has to basically be a complete restart of the whole story so you can start at episode 1.
Which show bible would mean the pilot should be forgotten when watching episode one, but I know that is hard.
Patience do be a virtue
I think viv thinks hazbin hotel might not make it that long so she is trying to speed blitz the history
No, you're right. That is the first thing I noticed too. The angels purging demons for their own gain/satisfaction should have been something revealed later in the season and could have been a perfect conflict for Charlie to decide whether her actions were even worth it. In other words, an amazing oppurtunity for plot and character development was thrown away in the first minute
What adds to the problem is that Hell itself isn't that bad. It honestly looks like a third-world country or, like some American cities (Moxxie even compared LA to Hell). Add the fact that it doesn't look like sinners are miserable there, and you get one very nice Hell. So why would anyone want to go to Heaven?
It's literally the "the most interesting people live in hell" meme
hmmm i dunno, maybe the constant risk of permanent death from an exorcist's blade? Gee i dunno i cant quite put my hand on it
Third world country ok hermano piola
@@_im_stupid_ Why would they fear death when they are in Hell? They are already in shitty situation for eternity, why would they want to live on?
In hell you can again but this time FOR GOOD!!!, meanwhile in heaven theres wine and air conditioning
its funny how the characters are built better before the show started😂😂😂
I don't get what the problem is; rehabilitating sinners would get them into heaven, so heaven wouldn't need to keep purging demons to stay in power. Charlie's goals are not to rehabilitate just a few, but enough that the purging wouldn't be necessary, that remains the same for either premise. Not only do Charlie's internal morals align with those of heaven (sans purging), but she doesn't believe at all that hell has a chance against heaven in a fight.
Charlie has already been told by literally everyone that her plan is hopeless even before Adam, and her only other options would be to give up, or to try and fight heaven, neither of which are in line with her character.
Also episode 6 completely invalidates this idea anyway since we're shown no-one other than the high seraphim and the purge squads knew about the culling.
I wish the songs meant something. For example, the pilot made it seem like no one in Hell cares/enjoys the concept of singing. Charlie gets so emotional and flustered over talking about the hotel that all she can do is sing about it, to which she gets made of for. Enjoy Vaggie makes a "oh no" face, even though she loves Charlie. Alastor sings - maybe not because he "enjoys" it - in order to show Charlie that he's playing along with her, if not to kinda mock her in the process. In the show, it would've made so much more sense to hold back the songs until it MEANT something. No one else should've sung as a way of showing the impact of Charlie's music (and therefore, Lilith's, given the intro). Charlie and Pentious sing for the first time when he apologizes and wants to genuinely redeem himself. Angel sings Poison when he's unable to get across just what he's feeling. Husk comforts Angel by singing because he's seen just how Charlie affects people with her music. THAT is the purpose of a musical, to SAY something about the music. As much as I enjoyed their songs, it doesn't make sense for Adam or Vox (not Carmilla, interesting concept, hated that song), it doesn't make sense for them to sing if you're trying to show Charlie's specialness AS THE MAIN CHARACTER. Even in her show, Charlie feels like such an afterthought.
Personally the fact that characters other than Charlie sing doesn't bother me that much, look for example at Disney films where the bad guys sing even if there are princesses. I won't say that Charlie's special talent is only singing, what makes her unique is supposed to be her very optimistic personality and ideas. The problem is that I don't feel like we focus much on her and her plan for the hotel, nor on the rest of the cast.
but I understand your opinion, then Viv is a big fan of musicals and like with Helluva she really wants to put at least 2 per episode, and if everything has to be linked to Charlie that limits the possibilities. Personally I would have preferred that there were fewer songs, already that the time of the episodes does not allow to offer much story, and also certain songs seem to arrive in a somewhat forced way, as if they had to be there to fill the song quota.
Omg thanks for saying that about Vox. I've heard people saying they like the song, but I just can't get into it. It just feels too contrived to me.
Viv is George Lucas 2.0. Without a team of people pulling the reigns. Every idea ends with "Gimme, gimme, gimme." @@lowkie78
Yep.
It's a trend with Vivzie projects : establishing an interesting premise just to give up on it as fast as possible to focus on something completely different.
I've noticed it since Zoophobia but Hazbin and Helluva Boss just confirms it. I mean... it's not an issue on itself, all long running shows do that eventually, but with the Vivzie-verse it always happens super fast. It's like she has so many ideas and things she wants to show and tell us - which is a good thing - but doesn't have the patience to properly present them.
I still think the show is fun and entertaining but I can understand people who are upset about this flaw.
Say what you want about One Piece's length but I think Oda is a good example of how to handle a story with a complex lore and tons of characters.
Hell merely exists as a backdrop to justify the existance of Viv's OCs.
That's why the lore is so inconsistent, everything is secondary to justifying the sexy tumblr mannoverse's existance.
@@PlanetZoidstar most stories are feeled with people oc's
@@kingj9664 True but you shouldn't use your setting purely as a backdrop for those OCs.
You need to consider the internal rules & logic of your setting or you risk contradicting your own concept.
As HH has because Viv didn't consider how the opening story would invalidate the entire premise of the show.
I agree with u, but excuse me ONE PIECE???!!!! Oda???? Nah man plz tell me ur joking cuz op is everything but a good story😭😭😭It’s literally the most overrated anime ever I got bored around the second episode 💀🙏🏻
@@PlanetZoidstaryeah also unless the extermination is a relatively new thing that hasn’t been around for long I refuse to believe that this is the first time an angel has died like no one has gotten a lucky hit, no group of sinners overwhelms an angel, no overlord kills an angel as a show of power?
This video is so funny after the final
Charlie is cute but you would think the princess of hell wouldn't be so nice also I was confused as to why Charlie couldn't help Angel get his soul back from Valentino she's the PRINCESS you would think she would have immense power to cancel that shit out honestly they should have just retconned the whole story to focus on Angel
She has to play by the rules of the system herself. That said killing him would work but she doesn’t have it in her.
@@kagato23I'm not saying you're wrong but didn't she end up killing angels in the attempted extermination? she definitely has the ability to kill "somewhere" in her
@@4our31Fighting for her life with an aggressor? Sure. But just going and killing somebody cause she doesn't like them?
@@kagato23 Well I think Valentino's crime is more than just "being unlikable" but imagine how far she might go to protect her friends one who making so much progress towards redemption, her life's mission, im not saying she shoud go and kill him no, but damnit she shouldn't be afraid of him! she could kick his ass
@@4our31 absolutely, he’s done a lot worse, but again. She’s not the type who does that. There is also the risks involved. He is an overlord. A one on one wouldn’t be much concern, but that’s not what would happen. An attack on him would result in reprisal from the V’s as a collective and that’d put the hotel and the people in it at risk. Not to mention if alive the hurt Valentino would likely take out any frustrations on Angel. If Charlie went this route, she’d have to go all in and again, that’s not her.
They could still call it hazbin hotel and instead of having being about rehabilitation, have it be a place for people who’ve been displaced by the exterminations to stay
That is way better(edit)
That sound like a really good pitch for season 2, so of course it wont happen
Apparently that was the original, ORIGINAL premise of the series. Back when it was a webcomic
I can see that happening, though the premise of redeeming sinners really captured my interest; so it’d be a bit sad not to see it play out in the show.
"Heaven is evil" is the biggest plothole in the whole show IMO. Like, if Heaven is so murder happy, shouldn't that instantly send them all to hell?
Unless Adam is like Prince Andrew and is God's favourite and the rest have to work to be good. And Adam just can do whatever he wants.
The only way I can see it really being a thing is if either people are encouraged to debase themselves as long as it’s heaven approved or Heaven is full of people like Crusaders and people who believed they were killing for God.
In my head, all of the humans who go to heaven are good but the heaven born are a toss up
This is pretty much the same scenario in hell because when you watch helluva boss, a lot of the hellborn are pretty decent people (think Moxie, stolas, fizz, and a majority of the deadly sins) while the sinners are mostly bad people
So far we see Heaven less as good but as following the rules heaven it’s self made up. So Heaven either doesn’t have a rule against killing sinners or actively made sinners an exception to the rule.
@@voldemort8894 Ypu could also have this be the case that, much like how Hell’s nihilism can encourage worse behaviour, Heaven’s “God says it’s ok” environment definitely would make people more open to see these things as permitted.
I personally think bringing Adam in SO early wasn't a very good idea.
Right off the bat we learn some angels are just total JERKS, and he clearly ENJOYS killing the sinners. The common belief that angels are sweet and civil should've been used instead (or at least first, assuming we WILL see nicer angels in the future), but then Adam shows up later on and catches the audience more off guard from experiencing an angel who's actually filled with sadistic, murderous joy.
Frankly, the impression ep 1 gives to me makes me feel like the whole plot with Charlie trying to reform sinners is hopeless right off the bat. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if this series is gonna go down the route of calling out Heaven and, to no one's surprise, have Charlie realize she shouldn't actually reform anybody because Heaven can be just as bad as Hell.
It's literally got the perfect set up to be a plot that scrapes away at the evils of Christianity and what-not. Which isnt bad, it's bold, but it's SO predictable....
I think the point of the show is for the characters to discover that heaven is run by assholes
So I just had an idea: In episode 3 Carmilla admitted to killing the angel, but didn’t say “how” just that she did it to protect her daughters. What if the way to kill angels is to fight for a better (on a good to evil scale) than them?
Carmilla attacked to protect her daughters, the angels aren’t even killing for any higher reason, but that it’s fun for them. This makes me believe that a similar situation might occur when an Angel attacks Charlie but Vaggie protects her, but that’s pretty far off.
She likely used an angelic weapon
@@RaptorZer0 Is that all it takes to kill an angel? You’d think more angels would have been dead by now.
@@Demongunner7 That is true, but this is what could have likely happen
@@RaptorZer0
a reminder she is a arms dealer/weapon forger, which means if she is smart, has the best weapon to herself which why she never says HOW she did it.
@@RaptorZer0angelic weapons get around in hell a lot, so much that Stella in Helluva boss gave one to an imp so she could kill her husband on a tantrum.
Honestly from all the 4 episodes so far, Charlie acts just like *Children* all the time she's on screen.
Stay positive all the time. Cute drawings. Trying to make her parents proud. Getting exciting at smallest things.
It kinda make sense why she acts the way she is in the series so far, an Ignorant Child (Who try to help her people)
Only seen the Pilot 3 years ago and episode 1, do they ever confirm her age? Last I checked form the wiki she's like, 200 or sm
@@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz she is still implied to have been heavily sheltered from the rest of hell by lucifer and lilith, and being raised as the princess of hell it afforded her a degree of protection and luxury that allowed her to maintain that childlike innocence. However, she also seems like she's a habitual people pleaser, afraid to put down others
@@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz 200 years old are 20 in Human age, so yeah.
But her behavior "Sugarcoat Everything" as people calls it literally resemble what Kids would act which make me understand why she's the way she is in the series.
She's just too Innocent.
@@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz if I remember correctly she's supposed to be at least maybe 178 years old maybe even older. But in hell years she's 19 or 20. College girl age. Even though she acts like a 14 year old sometimes.
yes, she like 1 season star butterfly
like, shes the daughter of the lord of evil, viv...
Anyone else noticed a lack of time passing? Like there was no visible way of gauging where our deadline was until like episode six where its just shouted "we only have a month!". You expect me to believe there's about a month between EACH EPISODE? The whole hotel plot of the first episode is setting up the tv advert. Show us time passing by maybe inserting background residents that have shown up and could cause trouble as the hotel now needs to actually function. But no, nobody shows up. The ENTIRE HOTEL SUBPLOT of the first episode is so that we can cut between stories, it remains inconsequential. And actually baffling when you consider it needed approval from the guy who controls all the tech and tv stuff, and he hates the hotel's patron so much he short-circuits.
Like fuck me, its flashy and has some fun songs, but the moment you scratch under the surface its all rotted. Plot holes everywhere, disappointing payoffs, nonsensical character motivations... bonkers.
Like Charlie is a cartoonishly naive and forgiving character. She 100% obviously would accept Vaggie as a fallen angel THATS WHO HER PARENTS ARE. So it makes little sense Vaggie doesnt tell her, except maybe as a shame thing. But then when it IS revealed, Charlie all but ends their relationship... for an episode.
Carmilla can kill angels but wont let that slip because she fought to protect her kids(how do kids work in hell?) and a full war would put them in way more danger. Makes sense, good to go. Then, with no changes on Carmilla's part, she's okay with two full factions learning how to kill angels and all of hell learning angels can be killed. Her kids are still around! Like hell, have a subplot where Lute investigates the death(WHICH WAS ALREADY SET UP AT THE START) and takes out one or both of Carmilla's children while snooping. Then Carmilla has no reason to not go all out war AND can have a full rivalry with Lute
At this point Id like to offer my entirely untrained self as head writer, Ill do a better job
I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the flaws right from the gate. They could have tried to slip clues throughout the show behind the scenes. But they seem to be cramming in a lot in 8 episodes. From musicals and war to side gags that fall flat. If the show evolves from flaws to resolves and hopefully step away from daddy/trust issues.
It wasn't a flaw, the control and overpopulation problems are one and the same.
The reason Heaven is worried about Hell rising up IS because of the overpopulation. That's the entire point of the culling, they reduce numbers so that Hell can't rise up against Heaven. But if the numbers are reduced via redemption instead, the effect is the same, the numbers are reduced, thus Heaven has nothing to worry about.
They mightve changed the premise of the show to imply that Charlie herself is flawed by ignoring Heaven's obvious problems. I think Charlie has her own problems in trying to prove to herself or even her parents that this hotel can work. Trying to use this hotel and everyone in it as a way of getting over her daddy and mommy issues. To prove that she's not a fuck up and is useful somehow. Even if that means rebelling against her father.
E
Yeah she even acknowledges in Episode 3 that she trusts everyone and let Vaggie take over the Trust Bonding lesson because of that
They could be doing something this season to MAKE the hotel viable, season finale they get Heaven's support, Adam is demoted and sent to hell, etc. Can we talk about how there were a council of elder angels who apparently saw the fuckboy and thought "Yeah we should step down and let him be in charge." Because based on him now being the leader of Heaven, that happened.
He's not the leader of heaven,he's the leader of the extermination squad and holds power due to being God's first child.If any archangel said "Adam shut the fuck up" he'd shut down in a heartbeat.
That might be a way to salvage this, but I doubt they will. I'd be pretty happy to be proven wrong though.
I'm not convinced entirely that Adam even represents Heaven's ideals, at least not completely. He's the leader of their army, but that makes him the general more or less with an above hierarchy. With Adam possibly waging his own personal vendetta against Hell because his first wife, Lilith, ditched him and wound up with Lucifer sometime after. I feel like what's stated in the intro could be somewhat of a red herring; and that this struggle between Heaven and Hell is a furthering problem sparked by Lucifer we may not as yet know the whole deal of and kept burning by Adam's spurned ego.
Maybe Charlie is aware of certain details she's withholding from the audience for the sake of keeping it lidded.
You were right on the money.
Also, the idea that Heaven wanting to keep control over Hell is somehow a different problem than Hell being overpopulated is ridiculous. Heaven is worried about control precisely BECAUSE Hell is overpopulated. The means of reducing the population is what's being debated, Charlie knows Heaven wants to keep Hell in check, so she's offering a better way of doing that, via reducing population through redemption instead of murder.
Yeah that's literally what ended up happening so I dont see why people just rushed to write off the show after seeing one obviously unreliable character.
I feel it's really hypocritical of many of the people in the comments who are taking in an emotional show on surface level.
"Adam is evil so all of heaven is evil"
That's far too easy of a conclusion to come to. It's not unfair to say there was a very good chance Adam was a soul garenteed a spot in heaven, for his actions opposing Eve's despite his consuming of The Fruit. I truly cannot comprehend a situation where this thought process is both the most likely, and most convenient.
You’re really misunderstanding here. The main issue in hell *is* over population. The more demons are in hell, the more powerful hell becomes, therefore increasing the chances of an uprising. But, by redeeming sinners and sending them to heaven, hell doesn’t have their souls so it doesn’t get more powerful. Basically, the more souls there are in hell, the worse it is for heaven. So, the killed the souls in hell, but Charlie is trying to simply send those souls to heaven instead. That’s literally the premise of the show. People who nitpick about stuff and give it bad reviews because they don’t like it are already bad enough, but it’s even worse when the points they’re bringing up aren’t even valid. Like, this nitpick isn’t even true.
We also know that not all of heaven is bad. We specifically get told that heaven is made up of mostly good people, sera, Adam and the exorcists are the only ones who know about the exterminations. We see that sera, even though she agreed to the exterminations, she was clearly hesitant and didn’t really want this, and would have been more than happy to find an alternative. Even Adam at first was a good person, but the fact that he was the first human in heaven, and overall the first man just made him a misogynistic asshole. Sinners that are actually redeemed will fit into heaven among other good people, we see this with pentious.
We also know that Lilith had something to do with the exterminations, as when Adam died lute said ‘their deal is done’ which implies that she was involved in the exterminations somehow, and could have even been the one to suggest it to get back at lucifer and now Charlie
This comment deserves WAYYYY more attention
Then why do the lead angels reject idea of redemption? It would seem like they would be the first people to advocate for the idea. No wasting souls in bloodshed and they gain souls to keep their power
@@SinKiske-ms3gy Because as we can see in 1x6, the angels have no idea what gets a soul into heaven, not even sera (one of the most important angels into heaven). They aren't going to risk an unproven method of redeeming sinners (which up until 1x8 they have no idea if it's even possible) as opposed to their tried and tested method of a yearly outing to hell.
@@Nieden-Pilled Then that makes the angels stupid and evil that they would resort to annihilation without exhausting other options. I watched those episodes when they aired and I was blown away by that reveal and how nonsensical it is. After all of human history, angels have NO CLUE why some people go to heaven and some go to hell. It's absurd. It also makes no sense why charlie or any demon for that matter would care to go to heaven when it is clearly no better than hell. It may be superficially nicer but there is no discernable difference in the quality of souls. Heck, charlie herself belongs in heaven more than some angels. I hope season 2 can save this world-building catastrophe but I seriously doubt it
@@SinKiske-ms3gy The angels are going down to hell once a year to deal with its overpopulation in order to prevent demons from rising against heaven. The hotel has only been created recently within the HH universe, there was no other option to deal with hell rising up until recently. Furthermore, why would they even think about redeeming sinners when the idea is to keep demons out of heaven. As sera says in 1x6, they have their own souls to worry about, and they never had the time or resources to redeem sinners, especially since the sinners of hell are innately hostile towards all angels (excluding lucifer I suppose). There's also the fact many angels, especially human souls, believed sinners to be inherently evil due to ending up in hell, why would you care about beings you consider to be inherently evil?
And Heaven IS better than hell, even if some of the angels are bozos, that doesn't take away from the fact it's an overall nice place to live, as we can see Adam say, there is "never a bad day in heaven." Just because you find assholes in heaven, doesn't make it different from the fact it's an infinitely better place to live in for a human soul than hell. If you're hellborn, hell isn't that bad since you can go to all seven rings, which means you can escape angelic violence, and the constant chaos of the Pride ring. But overall, for HUMAN SOULS, heaven is their only escape from being stuck in a perpetually violent, overcrowded and chaotic place. Some people, those most evil, do end up thriving in hell because its the kind of environment they will like as evil people, but for a lot of sinners who just ended up making mistakes, it's a horrific place to be.
Sinners in hell are confined to the pride ring, have to deal with constant violence, overpopulation and angels coming down to attack once a year. And as the song in 1x6 shows, once angels get into heaven, practically nothing can get them out of it. We see in Helluva boss that angels can fall by causing the death of a human on Earth, but excluding this, it's clearly established that once in heaven, there's not much an angel can do that can get them thrown into hell.
The worldbuilding is spelled out pretty clearly provided you read between the lines a little bit. Angels have a rough idea of what gets people into heaven, as we can see them usually listing off regular virtues, however, we can see that the angels lack the fine details, probably because what gets a human soul into heaven was defined by God and is done automatically.
I forgot if it was only mentioned in passing, or straight up told to us, but didn't Adam or the other one tell Charlie that she and the natural hellborn are given a pass on extermination days due to lucifer pleading for them to be exempt?
That's a pretty interesting concept that he could save natural hellborn, but not sinners. That's a pretty big thing to only be a throwaway line.
I'm seeing everything as Charlie being naive due to her limited world view. She thinks there must be SOME good in heaven because it's heaven so that's why she still tries with the hotel. Something world shattering would have to happen to snap her out of her mindset
It would probably take ALL of heaven (mainly their biggest head honchos not just Adam) literally laughing in her face, threatening her life, or even injuring/killing a loved one to make her see she can't trust them. If she discovered some truly terrible dark secret about heaven that might also shatter her worldview
I think it's only then the goal of the hotel will change. Once she rejects heaven, her new goal will be to find another way to save sinners while giving the middle finger to heaven (and if she succeeds heaven will retaliate)
I wouldn’t call it naivety it’s more ignorance look what happened in episode 4 she made things worse for angel coming to his job and she didn’t understand the gravity of the situation and honestly I don’t think Charlie powerful she’s powerful by name alone and nothing else I have no reason to think she could beat Valentino and help angel
Dude literally her plan is about giving heaven more souls than they are getting.
Said it in another thread, but yeah, it feels like we need a make or break by the end of the season that tells us what the hotel is for. If Heaven is evil, Charlie needs to see that and pivot her goals and probably use the Hotel as something else, maybe a home base or something. If the intended purpose of the hotel does matter, we need someone probably from Heaven who is sympathetic to Charlie's plight, willing to give her a shot, and who has the power, authority, and ability to make Heaven try things Charlie's way.
@@gregvs.theworld451 no I don’t think that will work cuz if we look at hell it’s no better honestly vizier main problem is she try to turn something that wasn’t complicated complicated which leads to problems best example of this is legend of Korea that did the opposite with the spirits
@@WeebGuru6she is actually extremely powerful because she's half angel she's in fact one of 2 people in hell who can permanently kill sinners without angel weapons
I may just be a biased Helluva fan but I am truly baffled with the writing quality & story telling ability of Hazbin. Its....kinda terrible. And I know some people hate the premise of Helluva but you can't deny the characters are super engaging and fun, the setting feels richly developed and the jokes SLAP hard and fast! The songs have only gotten better and better, broadway /concert quality now at the mid season 2 point. We are spoiled and in the time they made 8 episodes of this (imo) mess of a show, we got nearly 2 seasons of Helluva that have covered so SO much personal character moments, and world building! I feel like the only reason I care about Hazbin at all is that I know IMP CITY is right around the cornier and I HAVE to watch this show just in case it matters for Helluva.
You can complain about Helluva ships or that you don't enjoy that the story stepped away from the IMP business itself, and I'd also love a return to that in season 2 after the main character gets his love life and friendships rebuilt so we can see them take on heavier stuff for IMP itself! But again the story writing and characters feel a freaking world apart in quality than Hazbin. I'm baffled. The songs just aren't nearly as impressive as anything wee got in season 2 episode 7 Mammon- or the newest song 'Just Look My Way' that not only sounds so hauntingly beautiful that people who don't know a thing about the show still shiver from the song, and the visuals are a marvel to watch, but its also a fan made song they lovingly elevated to top tier production level! Where the hell is THAT in Hazbin!?
I don't want to hate Hazbin, I'm not a hate watcher person so it kills me to not enjoy it. But Helluva feels easy to follow and the characters have such insanely lovingly developed patterns of behavior that mean we can understand WHY they do the things they do. Hazbin just feels like a random grab bag to me, I desperately want to like Angel Dust's story for personal reasons and thats about the only reason from Hazbin itself that I'll bother watching past episode 4.
if anyone has any good faith reason they can think of for why theres such a discrepancy please share, I'm desperate to understand the vast canyon of quality loss. I don't care about her personally either way but just hearing "viv sucks" doesn't help, she writes for helluva plenty fine and the Hazbin Pilot was WAY above this schlock on Amazon. So what the hell happened?!
SPOILERS FOR THE FINAL
The premise gets crushed even further when we learn how Hell's forces can resist against the extermination. It was a relatively small group of demons against what we can only assume is the standard extermination army and Hell won that fight. Granted, it took Lucifer and Charlie, both of which are the strongest in Hell, and even Alastair couldn't beat Adam. But it shows that the extermination isn't some unbeatable force. Throughout season 1, Charlie reminds us of the ticking clock before the next raid but now, we don't need to worry as much because fighting back is an option whereas before, we assumed it wasn't. Simply put, there's less urgency and stakes behind the premise.
I'm still personally hopeful for the show because I think what they're building towards is more of a character arc for Charlie. Charlie comes off as a bit of a pacifist or at the very least very non-confrontational. I think what the story is leading up to is that if Charlie really wants to save her people, she is going to have to actually fight for them. She can't just be "aggressively kind" to everyone and expect things to get better. That she's eventually going to have to put here foot down and take a stand against the oppressors and abusers of her friends and people.
At least that's what I'm hoping for. We've already seen her demon side pop up both with Adam and Valentino. So I'm hoping her arc accumulates with her going for on Devil Trigger and fighting back instead of just trying the path of least conflict.
And I also hope that Alastor is gonna be the final villain that wants to bait out Charlie's demonic nature, and wish to see her rampage against both heaven and hell.
And his ultimate goal is to broadcast absolute suffering of the demons, angels, earth, and Charlie all just for entertainment since he has been so bored from the status quo.
I mean thats cool and all....But i prefered this whole thing when it was about redemption
It sounds like something you would hear in the second season or arc's opening, but spoiled too early
And this video dates itself
I at first felt that Adam is an exception to the rule because he's the first man but is everyone if a douche that whats the point of heaven and hell
I think Vivzies writing suffers from having had these characters rattling in her head for too long. At a certain point, you lose track of how much more you know, how familiar you are with everything, leading to mistakes like a lack of build up or the establishing of a status que, *before* you break it.
dawg they reaaaally killed what we waited for for 5 YEARS 💀
Dam harsh
Ironic
Imo, it's still fun, I'll stick around for the characters, and I hope they can pull it back, but yeah between Hazbin and Helluva it feels like this plot and premise atm are swiss cheese. I don't entirely fault the writers or the team, since as it's been pointed out Hazbin (atm) only has 16 episodes to work with and no guarantee (yet) of more, so I can see why it feels like they may be rushing if Amazon pulls a Netflix or Disney with Owl House here. That feels like a industry problem that's affected many in recent years, so much so it feels like a miracle when shows like Hilda or Amphibia get to end exactly how they wanted.
I definitely think Vivzie has some big strengths and weaknesses (And I want to be careful not to put this all on Vivzie; Hazbin and Helluva are made by a lot of people, including other writers.), and I hope Hazbin gets to be what it wants to be and pull back into coherence, and if Vivzie has a career making other shows I'll probably check those out too and hope she learns from the criticism and mistakes made with Hazbin and Helluva.
@@gregvs.theworld451 There's a difference between the Pilot Hazbin, w original concepts and great ideas, and this Hazbin that gives away a big reveal that was hinted at in the original, but was given away in the first few episodes ever and changes the way the whole show is 💀
It really sucks for those of us who grew up w the Pilot because of this, and who is to stay it's unrelated when the show is relying so much on it for the characters?
@@hehhehhehheh-wn7zz Like I said, and I admit this is only speculation on my end, but given that for all we know this series has 16 episodes to tell it's story and might not get more, I sympathize to a point with the rushed writing. 16 episodes and you're given a choice to tell the story you want to tell on limited time, or end up like Infinity Train as an unsatisfying possibly permanent cliff hanger. It sounds like an industry problem bred from capitalism that hurts a lot of creative works quality, and it's a situation I don't envy anybody trying to navigate.
With the fact that getting into heaven is impossible even if you redeem yourself, it feels like a golden opportunity to get the message across that you should still be a nice person even if you don't personally gain anything out of it. That could very well be what Viz is trying to tell her audience.
Viz wouldn't know how to say anything, even if it was herself talking directly to the audience.
I don't think is that deep. It looks like everything should be taken at face value.
People judging hardcore on Adam like he represents all of heaven for the entire show forever when 1 he isnt an angel and 2 most of the people of heaven didnt even know about the exterminations besides adam, lute, the exorcist squads, and Sera. But I suppose this video was made before the most recent episode.
I actually really enjoyed the first couple of episodes, I do feel like Adam should have been made more morally grey, making him completely evil makes it seem like heaven is also not that great of a place, which yeah, seems weird, but I’m still gonna give it the benifit of the doubt, becuase vivzie could still back peddle on the whole heaven is evil thing
Eh, i think the whole heaven si evil thing is preety definitive
I think it's still a stretch to call Heaven "evil". On an innocent population sure but heaven views sinners for what they are on the surface. Horrible people who did horrible things in life and continue to do horrible things in hell. Life was their test of who they are and they failed. Lute is a better presentation of heaven's attitudes than Adam.
Adam being a frat guy while he could have been a well-mannered, well-read but definitive about morality and the permanence of sin in one's afterlife is such a massive L.
With this version of Adam Viv really said "Wow the first man is such a loser amirite guys ?? Isn't this funny how we's so DIFFERENT and VULGAR ?? Compared to my sweet and quirky little blorbo
I really feel like the show has gone down the wrong path already. Alastor really felt like a good twist villain, but it seems like he's just going to be the 'unlikely side antihero'. What could've been a good show with dark turns (you know, to fit the whole premise of the show being set in HELL with bad people) ended up being a hamfisted message of 'heaven bad hell good', earning its '18+ disclaimer' with excessive swearing and edginess rather than an actual mature plot. oh well
Lets be honest even the original concept had issues. Charlie was the nicest person in hell and if redemption was possible why didn't she ascend? I mean other than being born in hell her only "sin" was being in a same sex relationship, depending on how that works in this version of seemingly Christian heaven if they are going the route of that being a sin. Which brings up issues of basically every one in Hell being "very open" in terms of relationships with almost anything that moves.
They showed their hand too early. Now there is nothing to really keep us invested other than the "How can they do it and what is this war going to look like?"
Not a "Can she do it?"
"Cam sinners be redeemed?" Since we already know they cant and that heaven is beyond corrupted.