For the record Bridgehampton was never an RF1 track. It was scratch built for AC in 2014/15. Marcel asked to use one of my tracks back in November and we agreed Bridgehampton would be a good test track given how rough it is, and would be fairly simple to convert in a short amount of time. I've been enjoying driving the sim myself and am looking forward to the future of this platform.
Ahh I remember playing it on AC1 , for some reason I seem to remember someone saying there was also an RF1 version. It's an awesome track great job 👍 I think lots of people take for granted how much time and work is involved in making tracks 😆 especially nicely detailed ones. The sheer scale of tracks is really something quite different to most other forms of level design / 3D modeling.
Looks like it’d be a fantastic sim for classic car racing, pretty much any category with bias ply tyres, given how well you could slide that Ford Escort (although that might not have been running bias plys)
I love your comment about how surprised we'd be if an AAA studio actually made a decent sim-racing game today. (Or a decent game in general, it feels like after the last year, although there are exceptions, of course.)
It seems that unless you can Hollywood it through the corners Mario kart style immediately GM thinks it's unrealistic. The big issue with RF2 is that it was too slidely and esports really made a joke of it. This looks a long those lines but hopefully he can dial it back.
Given that you can drive a radical SR3 with slicks in monster drift and the car is totally fine and a radical SR3 is generally a super grippy bitey car , ua-cam.com/video/J0xpDRTjNzA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MaxxUK you should be able to slide around a fair bit without issue so long as you know how to counter steer properly. ( especially in low downforce cars and older cars) Sims have historically gotten this MASSIVELY wrong and huge numbers of people don't realise how much you can overdrive cars if you know how to counter steer properly , even on slicks. Obviously you wouldn't overdrive like an idoit because you don't have to or need to + it wares out tires the car and costs more money Also just because you can do a massive slide does not mean a sim is perfect , but being able to drift is a basic quality a car should have to some extent and when a sim can't do it it basically removes a huge amount of options from racing and forces single viable line racing as apposed to multiple viable line driving which you have in reality in many cases. AMS2 and tons of cars in RF2 have super wide controllable slip that does not necceccerly ware out / over heat tires / be slower as you might expect which is also problematic. AC1 is by far the closest to getting the nature of tire slip at the limit right with it being not over the top also having a quite tight grove but also it being about balancing in a small zone rather than a near binary zone like iracing. But sure straw man what I have said , AMS2 fans say "GM THINKS CARS SHOULD HAVE NO SLIP" iRacers say "GM THINKS CARS SHOULD ALWAYS BE SUPER DRIFTY" when I have always been clear in that reality is basically AC but more responsive / faster transition between states + more dynamic depending on track condition and tires at any given point in time. @@John-ok8ts
Troll, drive a real car or at least watch some footage of lets say Yellowbird on Nords. RF2 is by far the most realistic sim in regards of physics and tyre model behaviour, there are also plenty of esports of RF2, real racing teams use RF2 based custom software, they collaborate closely with Goodyear for extremely accurate tyre details. You can like or enjoy whatever you want, perceive physics however you please, but RF2 is the closest thing to real thing what is available to general public. Graphics, UI, bugs, online is a different story and different topic.
@@GamerMuscleVideos all I saw was a guy getting a quick snap which he was able to catch. Then see sawing the wheel while slowing down and going straight on followed by a spin that he couldn't recover from. Looked identical to how the car handles on iracing. Perhaps you want to tell me a time point I need to look at because this was nothing like how that sim handled. Ironically I don't think I could have found a better video to illustrate my point. Most sims especially iracing don't simulate cars with low downforce. They are race cars not road cars. If you want to see iracing model the kind of cars you seem to want then have a go at the dirt track, it's exactly like this.which is accurate for dirt. It's not because iracing's physics or tyres can't do this. It's because this isn't realistic for the type of cars iracing simulates. You seem to be arguing for what makes a better game not a better sim. Have you watched a race in real life. Unless it's really low level there's generally only one racing line.
@@viktorianas Drive what real car. A road car or a race car because those two handle completely differently. Iracing's tyres are a little slow in losing the heat but fundamentally they do what they do in real life. You need to make sure you don't over brake on entry otherwise you understeer and don't slide too much because it becomes a vicious cycle. That's how it works in real life too. The idea you can just Mario kart it through corners is laughable and it's not 5 years ago. You can overdrive all you want in iracing - it's just slower just like real life.
I hope Marcel can actually start up his own dev team and bring a title to market tbh. He'd be capable of spearheading a great finished project, compared to others doing the same thing. Gr8 to see it running, hope it gains traction - sorry for the pun...
Apparently they started with the most important part, if they make a project with this engine and lanch it as a 0.1 beta early access I bet they can receive support enough to make a big project from it.
A brick on an ice rink, great way to put that haha. I don't know if I'm just more experienced now or the game actually feels better, but iRacing feels less like iceRacing than it did 2-3 years ago.
You just memorised what you can and cannot do better , the driving technique is the same as years ago. Cars are a little less likely to insta give out and stuff in last year or so tends to be a bit more slidy , but ironically it just makes it more vague as you still have to drive in same way , of under driving up to limit and then leaning into the slide rather than actively driving on the limit.
Thanks god the other guy said, “cause that’s not how real cars work” and he’s so right. You don’t lose 5 places in a race from a bit of a slide and you can even go faster around a track if you slide in certain moments. If GM said it he’d just get yelled at for not driving cars enough.
I don't know where simracers get there ideas for what real cars are like to drive.. You can litraly do go-karting or do palmer sport or something and see that you can really over drive cars with slick tires still. I think lots of simracers think drifting / holding slides / driving in a reactive way is some magical seperate thing not an actual fundimental part of driving. this is reflected in online racing when 80% of grid cant drive on cold tires or just crash or drive crazy slow when it rains in sims with dynamic wether and they cant just robo drive lol. lots of simracers don't understand that even a radical SR3 can be drifted around.
@@GamerMuscleVideos fairly sure you’ve nailed it, I’ve been whipping cars around for 25 years now. The way I drive IRL only translates to AC and AMS2 properly. AC has a mod of a sports car I put 150k hardcore miles on and I’ve never experienced anything that close to real life as it pertains to driving at the limit and recovery. It’s baffling without a doubt.
@@xxTICxxTOCxx If you want the exact link I’d have to dig it up but it’s a 2003 BMW Z4 3.0, the only difference is that I had SMG vs pure manual but my sim rig is setup for SMG already so it feels normal except the slight delay in shifting. That early paddle shifter could bang through gears far faster than humans it was one of my favorite cars.
well its the most realistic driving simulator for handling at the limit , along with some aspects of RF2 , so it makes sense to use it as a general reference.
everyone is gangsta until tracks and same car models as other sims are available so you can actually compare. FFB seemed to be dialled back, preference or sim output? excited for a new sim and hoping they are up to the playing field, with positive notes at being at a better start than some AAA titles, but then again we will need to wait and see... wishing them good luck in creating a great sim experience.
I am not sure that necessity of jerking the wheel maniacally left and right to keep the car driving fairly slowly in straight line supports the claim of the car being nice and controllable:).
I was over driving to get a feel for the tires and how the FFB responds , as you can see I started to calm things down after driving for a bit , the point is you can actually counter steer and correct the car and slides and over drive without binning the car. Not being able to overdrive is a huge issue with many simulators.
When ppl test the physics engine of a sim they usually drive like this. If you watch any of Niels' videos for example, he deliberately drifts the car and uses a lot of opposite lock. It's a way to find the game engine's limits fast.
Sounds very promising, hope they keep paying attention to the drifting and overall slip condition side of things, when that's right in the tyre model, the rest of the physics fall into place. Mod support is awesome, maybe the next AC competitor?
Also its been programmed so its easy to separate out the components , makes this very compelling from a licencing perspective also Gadot being open source allows for lots of interesting aspects to this from a dev perspective and the last garage has contributed to the engine as well with aspects pertinent to realistic driving simulators.
How does the 1KHz work? I'd like to hear what the developer has done to simulate the surface feel going on and off the track. Has he programed the feel for tarmac, grass, and sand, and do these surface textures interact with each other when driven over? How slow can you drive? How does the clutch affect the drive if you change gears correctly or badly. I hope to see a demo of this become downloadable soon.
1khz I assume is the rate at which the physics variables are updated. In terms of how it pertains to the most relevant aspects of what makes a car drive like a car or "seem realistic" to be honest is wager a sim running at 100hz would be fine. Faster physics engines typically allow for finer track detail bumps , curbing and other details to be felt through FFB at higher driving speeds ( this could be faked though with canned effects and most people would notice) Tarmac grass and sand "feel" and "behavior" can be from a multitude of things and can be done in very simple or very complex ways with ether being perceived exactly the same to the end user. Maybe I can do an interview with Marcel to specifically talk about how 1khz physics is relevant to this project 👍. With all software it's really just down to how things are implemented numbers in and of themselves don't necessarily mean anything. Like an amp saying 11 rather than 10 on the dile , it doesn't necessarily mean the amp that says 11 is louder than 10 😂
Interesting stuff. 'Brand new racing simulator physics engine which might get used in a good sim racing title in the future' isn't quite such a snappy title of course. 🙂Best of luck to the team. AMS2 content and this engine? Ooh, suit you Sir.
GM, I might have missed it in the video, but did either you or Marcel mention what kind of tyre model TLG uses? Is it physical (like Rf2/AMS2)? Multi-point empirical (like ACC)? Single-point empirical (like AC/AMS1)? It looks like a single-point empirical just based on your comments about the FFB, but I was curious nonetheless.
@@GamerMuscleVideos, ah. Cheers, M8. Sadly, I don't have a Twitter, but I'll be on the lookout for further information. A lot of devs hate physical tire models because 1. They are very complex and require a lot of dedicating processing power. 2. They are very hard to get right (just ask Reiza or iRacing). And, 3. They discourage modders due to the inherent complexity. But, I think it was Marcel who said that if a game came with enough accurately modeled tire presets, modders could simply expand or shrink the width to fit the car they were trying to model. I'll be curious to see how this issue is tackled in TLG.
Yah I had a good chat with marcell and am aware of these aspects of tire models / physics engines , I Just don't want to publicly state things that marcell might not want public yet , It's probably all fine but unless I see things published or I know something is public I tend not to state or talk about things. This mostly just keeps things simple for me as I have lots of conversations with developers / bussinesses with projects in lots of different states and by having a firm rule for myself that I don't say stuff unless I have already seen it public , that way I don't risk sharing things that are not public yet :) @@flyingphoenix113
Both cars demo'd were on a Pacejka based (so semi-empirical) model. I am using a collision algorithm of Sui and Hirshey, modified to sample the contact patch in more detail across the longitudinal and lateral axis. There are other tire models available, this is one of the things that are modular.
btw if you running 900deg on steering input on a escort of cause you wont be able to keep the car on track. if you didnt know escort has a short ratio steering box which on max at 540deg in real life. drive the escort with 540 deg and you'll see the becomes a whole different machine with amazing handling than to the norm 900deg.
Neil's is part of big overn and a total overn Fanboy. Fact is air fryers are the future and all the cool kids air fry everything on the limit. AIR FRY THE WORLD !
If he builds a solid template for modders, creates an in game store. And shares profits with modders. Could be the best way to get good content out considering he’s a 1 man team 😅
I would have liked more ffb to explore the loading of the front tyres under braking and understeer. But the early signs are there. It was too subtle for my ffb preference right now.
@@LaurenceDusoswa Agreed. Marcel told us they had toned down the FFB so as not to overdo it. But IMO it was toned down too much. OTOH I have my 17NM DD at 100%, so...
Ok so please no one yell at me and follow along. Am I the only one that would be ok with the rear view being centered to prevent crossing screens? I say this about all sims and yes I know where the mirror is but I’m talking luxury. I think we are all mostly looking straight on the primary monitor anyway. Roast me idc I’m just wondering if anyone else has a thought?
Looks like iracing on a dirt track. I can't imagine any car slides that much in real life on tarmac.if you watch people learning to drift in real life it actually takes some skill.
I use 595 & 599 at home , the ones on this rig didn't sound or feel so good , I think they are the Sennheiser G4me Zero Gaming Headphones which felt and sounded nothing like 595,599 sennheiser probably licenced some generic crap and then slapped there brand on it to sell to gamers. I think the (Sennheiser Game One Open Acoustic Gaming Headset) use same driver as 595 and are probably ok but cost £161 , so might as well get 595s for £100 and stick an add on mic for 25-40.. Gaming headphones are prity much always a total scam.
@@GamerMuscleVideos whilst I am sure Senheiser has made newer and better headphones it is probably fair to say that currently the sound in-game is very basic so I think the blame for this is on me.
so great to hear feedback from an unbiased, IRL racing driver who can compare a virtual driving experience to similar experiences driving the same car on the same track ... oh .. wait ...
One doesn't have to be a real pilot or professional driver or soldier to be able to have an idea of a games physics are generally realistic or not ! Why this is such a hard concept for some people to understand is really bizar.
Riverside is a real track that no longer exists, and was modded into Assetto Corsa (and then RF2 if I am not mistaken) by Lilski. Lilski has agreed for his mod track to be used in this new engine. I have it in AC and it is really great.
It makes a lot of sense actually for a "first showing". The last thing they would want at such an early stage would be a direct comparison with a well known combo. GT3 at spa being the meme one.
They probably chose an older car because they move around a lot more. More tire flex, more suspension movement, less grip. All of these things put toghether will lead to a lot more information to the FFB and a better demonstration of what the engine is capable of.
This looks very promising, but it seems to me simracing would most benefit from leveraging modern a.i. advances for physics modeling. I expect it’s already being used, but not talked about due to the potential profit involved.
@@dinxsy8069 Telemetry is just data; it is not a.i. If it were as simple as just using real world telemetry, we would have the holy grail of physics by now. Analyzing and interpreting data is what a.i. is good at.
Because the car is sliding ... This is why you have FFB so you can feel where the grip is and know how much to turn that is of use. Over driving like I am in the video let's you work out where the grip of the tire is and basically test the grip many times per corner , which then let's you understand the physics quicker than if you drive into power slides with no correction as you have to drive in totally broken sims like iracing.
Mr.Muscle, I love your vids but can you plleeeaaasseeee stop trying to chop down trees every time you drive lol.. looks like you are sawing logs my man 😉
Over driving like this is litrally the fastest way to feel and find the limit of a simulator. Of course someone can robo drive gradually but then you are not testing the limit of a car or seeing how a car reacts to input. Driving like this is the fastest way to see what a car can and cannot do and the fastest way to see what the nature of a games physics engine is.
Well more AMS1 to be honest , had a longer go after this video , but AMS1 is awsome and the main thing with this is that he has programmed the physics in a way that it would be much easer to licence / compartmentalize parts of the game without issues such as you might have with legacy game engines that were patched together over decades of work and with older methods in mind.
@@HDRGamingHub I just mean it seems a forlorn quest when there are some absolutely massive sim companys now with users kinda tied in and invested, i cant see that landscape changing very easily or quickly
If Niels is involved (I'm happy that his talents are used again in a Sim), then it's a direct buy 🎉 .. as Niels is an expert for modelling cars on rFactor1 physics (he did all his cars on these physics, even at Reiza with GSCP and AMS1) it's most probable they got a license for a rFactor1/rFactor2 physics engine and Marcel is developing it further .. and also most probably if they use the rFactor2 engine they don't use the CPM tyre model, because at least Niels isn't convinced of it because it's too complex to get the results you want (and hard to correlate with real data), especially for modders..we will find out
it looks like they are hoping to sell this as an engine more than developing their own game on it. thats what i inferred from the various media about it
@@dalton-at-work They are making their own SIM but it's programmed in a well thought out way that leaves things open to many options both for themselves but also when it comes to licencing.
It looks controllable while being very dynamic and natural HOWEVER, it seems to have the same issue as everything in the rFactor engine: you have to basically almost snap the wheel to a seemingly pre-determinded angle then, when the slide's slip angle stops increasing, you have to immediately snap the steering wheel back to centre. So basically it's a very on/off snap-wheel-to-one-spot-then-snap-wheel-back-to-center control which is nothing like reality and nothing like how oversteer works in the only 3 game engines that do oversteer (especially power oversteer) fairly correctly, those being: Live For Speed, Netkar Pro, BeamNG Drive, and (sometimes, too vehicle/mod dependent) Assetto Corsa. Is it therefore possible that does in fact use some aspects of the rFactor 1 or 2 physics engine - either aspects of the underlying tyre model or other parts of the underlying physics engine)? There are definitely similarities in the physics - some of those similarities are a good thing but some of those similarities are a bad thing showing long-standing, unrealistic, unnatural vehicle behavior that is deeply rooted in the ISI physics engine going back to the 1990s' Sports Car GT and still present all the way to present-day rFactor 2. I think at 6:22 you alluded to exactly what I described above.
Yah it's weird isn't it , I don't quite know why LFM,AC,nkp do it right if it's a result of ballenced physics or if it's a specific fudged variable that makes the car stay in slip neutrally like a "drift mode" even if it's "fake" the end result is more realistic than cars basically only being capable of doing power slides as apposed to drifts. I wonder if some of the ballence also comes from FFB being exactly with the game so the car auto steers the drift slide thus removing the "on off" aspect
So, we have 3 types of simmers now: 1 - on/off grip lovers, iRacing, ACC, bland memory based racing. 2 - react to losing grip fast or you will end up in a ditch, AC, RF2, AMS1, RaceRoom, RBR, very dynamic, reflex based natural driving. 3 - grip is infinite whenever you touch the brake pedal, AMS2, PC2, DiRT Rally 2.0, EA WRC, you drive to have fun, physics are here to help you.
What wheelbase were you testing on and what will bases are going to be supported? This is something that’s always excluded for most reviews about upcoming games and it’s almost crucial anymore when something uses the word Sim in it that it better have support for all high-end direct drive wheels Also, it would be nice to note that company should hear more about AI being decent. I’m tired of all racing. Sims have great physics but no AI to race against because in the end people do get tired of continuously competing online and it can be enjoyable to have really good AI to race against with friends in private lobbies
looks the the steering wheel has to move 2 or 3 times more aggressively than in real life to keep the car on the track. Not a good impression. Maybe the wheel set up was just wrong?
I was just over driving , it's actually a good sign that it allows you to correct slides , also older cars allow for much more active wheel input. I have another video and you see later in this I was doing less wheel input as I was driving calmer.
@@GamerMuscleVideos I bow to your greater knowledge. Just looked a wee bit odd. Mind you if you were to see how I drive in sims you might thing the same :)
GamerMuscle - I know you like to give your Channel that "comedy Shtick" that separates you from others. But I genuinely GENUINELY wanted to know your impressions of this exciting new Sim. As we seem to have the same thoughts about what we both like (& dislike) in current sims. So as that original AC Fanboy myself - I was so excited to watch this video to get your personal thoughts on it. ; )))
I see GPL in this, the grandad of sims. If they can nail the online side of things to be like iRacing but without being raped on content costs and still able to use the game without a monthly sub. Few key cars and tracks and not the latest and greatest car combo only for it to become "unpopular" then dead
I wonder what company will build the race game with that game engine. Its obviously too much work for these guys to make a game out of it, but they will surely make a few $$
I can cope with lock to car for short periods of time , issue is doing 3+ hour live streams , glancing at chat and all the other stuff lol. But yah ideally some form of cam smoothing would be nice 🤣
From the video perspective it seems to be closer to AC (by how I see you responding with the wheel and how the camera in the game moves) it would be interesting to see a new competitor in the field :)
Please, you two should pair up more often. Podcast, maybe. Sounds like this game nails the fact that cars are easy to drive, but hard to drive fast. Too many fall for the idea that goes back to GPL that hard equals realistic. I’ve heard “modular” used to describe this game. What’s it mean? (Would love a full API that’s allow user-developed AI, rules, etc.)
Reminded me a lot of AMS1 when I spent more time on it , AC still in my opinion has better general regrip after grip loss and.more detailed ffb. But main value of this SIM is that it's in an open source graphics engine and that it's been programmed from the ground up to be properly Modular as a realistic physics engine. By Modular for example graphics networking physics are not tied to eachother such that removing one component brakes another.
Thanks for the kind words Jean-Pierre! As for the modular aspect, from what I gathered, and Marcel said this himself, that if in 10 years you want to swap out the graphics, the physics, the UI, etc, you can just do that quite easily without affecting the other aspects of the sim. This is exceptionally exciting I think and comes from a very credible source. Marcel is one of the most experienced sim racing devs out there, so he's not just imagining a great solution, he's got years of mistakes and wisdom built into this sim. That's why it feels like it has AAA potential. He also knows what sim racers want. Building in triple screen support from the start shows that. He didn't bring 'easy' cars to the expo. He brought two cars that want to kill you, and they were both driveable and enjoyable. Anyways, thanks for the nice comment LD
That is not a bad idea at all. My first step though is to further define what features and content go into it before it makes sense to try and come up with a good name.
Realistic cars are fun and easy to recover , that's precisely why driving is fun even when people are quite slow. People buy too much into the marketing surrounding Motorsport that you have to be some driving god to not crash when over driving a bit. It's really hard to be 1 second on pace in a short period of time and that's the real skill. If you have a basic feel for counter steer It's really not hard to not spin or crash when overdriving a car a bit.
For the record Bridgehampton was never an RF1 track. It was scratch built for AC in 2014/15. Marcel asked to use one of my tracks back in November and we agreed Bridgehampton would be a good test track given how rough it is, and would be fairly simple to convert in a short amount of time. I've been enjoying driving the sim myself and am looking forward to the future of this platform.
Ahh I remember playing it on AC1 , for some reason I seem to remember someone saying there was also an RF1 version.
It's an awesome track great job 👍
I think lots of people take for granted how much time and work is involved in making tracks 😆 especially nicely detailed ones.
The sheer scale of tracks is really something quite different to most other forms of level design / 3D modeling.
Brilliant peace of art for AC. Thank you LilSki.
You look like you’re in a film set from the 50’s with that wheel going all over the place
Looks like it’d be a fantastic sim for classic car racing, pretty much any category with bias ply tyres, given how well you could slide that Ford Escort (although that might not have been running bias plys)
I love your comment about how surprised we'd be if an AAA studio actually made a decent sim-racing game today. (Or a decent game in general, it feels like after the last year, although there are exceptions, of course.)
Makes me wonder what bigger sim racing studios get up to when small studios can out do them. Nice work, Cant wait to try this!
"This is pretty drivable guys" - proceeds to have dirt rally 900 degree lock experience on the tarmac
It seems that unless you can Hollywood it through the corners Mario kart style immediately GM thinks it's unrealistic. The big issue with RF2 is that it was too slidely and esports really made a joke of it. This looks a long those lines but hopefully he can dial it back.
Given that you can drive a radical SR3 with slicks in monster drift and the car is totally fine and a radical SR3 is generally a super grippy bitey car ,
ua-cam.com/video/J0xpDRTjNzA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=MaxxUK you should be able to slide around a fair bit without issue so long as you know how to counter steer properly. ( especially in low downforce cars and older cars)
Sims have historically gotten this MASSIVELY wrong and huge numbers of people don't realise how much you can overdrive cars if you know how to counter steer properly , even on slicks.
Obviously you wouldn't overdrive like an idoit because you don't have to or need to + it wares out tires the car and costs more money
Also just because you can do a massive slide does not mean a sim is perfect , but being able to drift is a basic quality a car should have to some extent and when a sim can't do it it basically removes a huge amount of options from racing and forces single viable line racing as apposed to multiple viable line driving which you have in reality in many cases.
AMS2 and tons of cars in RF2 have super wide controllable slip that does not necceccerly ware out / over heat tires / be slower as you might expect which is also problematic.
AC1 is by far the closest to getting the nature of tire slip at the limit right with it being not over the top also having a quite tight grove but also it being about balancing in a small zone rather than a near binary zone like iracing.
But sure straw man what I have said , AMS2 fans say "GM THINKS CARS SHOULD HAVE NO SLIP" iRacers say "GM THINKS CARS SHOULD ALWAYS BE SUPER DRIFTY"
when I have always been clear in that reality is basically AC but more responsive / faster transition between states + more dynamic depending on track condition and tires at any given point in time.
@@John-ok8ts
Troll, drive a real car or at least watch some footage of lets say Yellowbird on Nords. RF2 is by far the most realistic sim in regards of physics and tyre model behaviour, there are also plenty of esports of RF2, real racing teams use RF2 based custom software, they collaborate closely with Goodyear for extremely accurate tyre details. You can like or enjoy whatever you want, perceive physics however you please, but RF2 is the closest thing to real thing what is available to general public. Graphics, UI, bugs, online is a different story and different topic.
@@GamerMuscleVideos all I saw was a guy getting a quick snap which he was able to catch. Then see sawing the wheel while slowing down and going straight on followed by a spin that he couldn't recover from. Looked identical to how the car handles on iracing. Perhaps you want to tell me a time point I need to look at because this was nothing like how that sim handled. Ironically I don't think I could have found a better video to illustrate my point. Most sims especially iracing don't simulate cars with low downforce. They are race cars not road cars. If you want to see iracing model the kind of cars you seem to want then have a go at the dirt track, it's exactly like this.which is accurate for dirt. It's not because iracing's physics or tyres can't do this. It's because this isn't realistic for the type of cars iracing simulates. You seem to be arguing for what makes a better game not a better sim. Have you watched a race in real life. Unless it's really low level there's generally only one racing line.
@@viktorianas Drive what real car. A road car or a race car because those two handle completely differently. Iracing's tyres are a little slow in losing the heat but fundamentally they do what they do in real life. You need to make sure you don't over brake on entry otherwise you understeer and don't slide too much because it becomes a vicious cycle. That's how it works in real life too. The idea you can just Mario kart it through corners is laughable and it's not 5 years ago. You can overdrive all you want in iracing - it's just slower just like real life.
I was hoping you'd encountered the last garage at the expo. Interesting stuff indeed.
Great team vid here guys. Already interesting and then to hear Niels involvement really has me looking forward to seeing this develop!
I hope Marcel can actually start up his own dev team and bring a title to market tbh. He'd be capable of spearheading a great finished project, compared to others doing the same thing. Gr8 to see it running, hope it gains traction - sorry for the pun...
Very refreshing to hear Mr Muscle getting excited for a new sim.
Let's hope they don't balls it up further into development.
Great.
Bboy.
Apparently they started with the most important part, if they make a project with this engine and lanch it as a 0.1 beta early access I bet they can receive support enough to make a big project from it.
I feel a bit more hopeful and excited for this than AC2. Gonna be a good year.
I tried it, it’s crap 😂. Honestly, could not feel the car at all. But yes, very easy to drive. Like need for speed kinda
A brick on an ice rink, great way to put that haha. I don't know if I'm just more experienced now or the game actually feels better, but iRacing feels less like iceRacing than it did 2-3 years ago.
You just memorised what you can and cannot do better , the driving technique is the same as years ago.
Cars are a little less likely to insta give out and stuff in last year or so tends to be a bit more slidy , but ironically it just makes it more vague as you still have to drive in same way , of under driving up to limit and then leaning into the slide rather than actively driving on the limit.
Thanks god the other guy said, “cause that’s not how real cars work” and he’s so right. You don’t lose 5 places in a race from a bit of a slide and you can even go faster around a track if you slide in certain moments. If GM said it he’d just get yelled at for not driving cars enough.
I don't know where simracers get there ideas for what real cars are like to drive..
You can litraly do go-karting or do palmer sport or something and see that you can really over drive cars with slick tires still.
I think lots of simracers think drifting / holding slides / driving in a reactive way is some magical seperate thing not an actual fundimental part of driving.
this is reflected in online racing when 80% of grid cant drive on cold tires or just crash or drive crazy slow when it rains in sims with dynamic wether and they cant just robo drive lol.
lots of simracers don't understand that even a radical SR3 can be drifted around.
@@GamerMuscleVideos fairly sure you’ve nailed it, I’ve been whipping cars around for 25 years now. The way I drive IRL only translates to AC and AMS2 properly. AC has a mod of a sports car I put 150k hardcore miles on and I’ve never experienced anything that close to real life as it pertains to driving at the limit and recovery. It’s baffling without a doubt.
@@E2_Hawkeye which sports car mod, specifically?
@@xxTICxxTOCxx If you want the exact link I’d have to dig it up but it’s a 2003 BMW Z4 3.0, the only difference is that I had SMG vs pure manual but my sim rig is setup for SMG already so it feels normal except the slight delay in shifting. That early paddle shifter could bang through gears far faster than humans it was one of my favorite cars.
@@E2_Hawkeye Found one by 101creative, would it be that?
One day we may get a video from GM without the line "The original Assetto Corsa" in it lol
well its the most realistic driving simulator for handling at the limit , along with some aspects of RF2 , so it makes sense to use it as a general reference.
everyone is gangsta until tracks and same car models as other sims are available so you can actually compare. FFB seemed to be dialled back, preference or sim output? excited for a new sim and hoping they are up to the playing field, with positive notes at being at a better start than some AAA titles, but then again we will need to wait and see... wishing them good luck in creating a great sim experience.
Drives a lot like AMS1 in my opinion which I think is quite a good thing , this track is in AC , RF2 and AMS1
ffb was lower because of an issue in the software/wheelbase at higher forces :D
I love that it can simulate vehicles with more than 4 wheels! Can't wait to drive a Tyrrell P34 in it!
I am not sure that necessity of jerking the wheel maniacally left and right to keep the car driving fairly slowly in straight line supports the claim of the car being nice and controllable:).
I was over driving to get a feel for the tires and how the FFB responds , as you can see I started to calm things down after driving for a bit , the point is you can actually counter steer and correct the car and slides and over drive without binning the car. Not being able to overdrive is a huge issue with many simulators.
@@GamerMuscleVideos *cough* iRacing 👀
It does look like one of those old-timey movies where the actors are just randomly pulling on the wheel as they drive 😂
Also that’s the only way to drive escort Mk 1’s. My favourite car
When ppl test the physics engine of a sim they usually drive like this. If you watch any of Niels' videos for example, he deliberately drifts the car and uses a lot of opposite lock. It's a way to find the game engine's limits fast.
Sounds very promising, hope they keep paying attention to the drifting and overall slip condition side of things, when that's right in the tyre model, the rest of the physics fall into place. Mod support is awesome, maybe the next AC competitor?
I'm glad there's something nice and new on the horizon :)
It's not on the horizon though. It won't be out for years.
Wow that looks like a mk1 escort handling with a bit of power. That looks awesome
Excellent video. Really good opinions from GM i feel. However, we tend to see eye to eye on ffb and tire models and game physics for the large part.
Oooh a sim made in Godot? 👀
Indeed.
Also its been programmed so its easy to separate out the components , makes this very compelling from a licencing perspective also Gadot being open source allows for lots of interesting aspects to this from a dev perspective and the last garage has contributed to the engine as well with aspects pertinent to realistic driving simulators.
ua-cam.com/video/tm8FwzHUGCs/v-deo.html&ab_channel=EditingRoom3of3@@izzieb
@@GamerMuscleVideos As a game dev who switched from Unity to Godot a year ago, this is exciting to hear! Can't wait to see more of this game.
Hard to tell how good it looks if the inputs are like that.
A new sim racing engine is always awesome news! All the best, hope a new title comes out in due time.
How does the 1KHz work? I'd like to hear what the developer has done to simulate the surface feel going on and off the track. Has he programed the feel for tarmac, grass, and sand, and do these surface textures interact with each other when driven over? How slow can you drive? How does the clutch affect the drive if you change gears correctly or badly. I hope to see a demo of this become downloadable soon.
1khz I assume is the rate at which the physics variables are updated.
In terms of how it pertains to the most relevant aspects of what makes a car drive like a car or "seem realistic" to be honest is wager a sim running at 100hz would be fine.
Faster physics engines typically allow for finer track detail bumps , curbing and other details to be felt through FFB at higher driving speeds ( this could be faked though with canned effects and most people would notice)
Tarmac grass and sand "feel" and "behavior" can be from a multitude of things and can be done in very simple or very complex ways with ether being perceived exactly the same to the end user.
Maybe I can do an interview with Marcel to specifically talk about how 1khz physics is relevant to this project 👍.
With all software it's really just down to how things are implemented numbers in and of themselves don't necessarily mean anything.
Like an amp saying 11 rather than 10 on the dile , it doesn't necessarily mean the amp that says 11 is louder than 10 😂
I'm guessing you didn't get the opportunity to try with stronger ffb?
I did after this video
@@GamerMuscleVideos nice, it did look quite low. Did it give you that bit of extra feel at the rear you were looking for?
This honestly looks more like Assetto Corsa 2 than the actual Assetto Corsa 2 lol (and that's a good thing).
This looks pretty great!
Interesting stuff. 'Brand new racing simulator physics engine which might get used in a good sim racing title in the future' isn't quite such a snappy title of course. 🙂Best of luck to the team. AMS2 content and this engine? Ooh, suit you Sir.
GM, I might have missed it in the video, but did either you or Marcel mention what kind of tyre model TLG uses? Is it physical (like Rf2/AMS2)? Multi-point empirical (like ACC)? Single-point empirical (like AC/AMS1)? It looks like a single-point empirical just based on your comments about the FFB, but I was curious nonetheless.
I'm not sure if that's public information , you could ask Marcell on his twitter here :) twitter.com/m4rr5?lang=en
@@GamerMuscleVideos, ah. Cheers, M8. Sadly, I don't have a Twitter, but I'll be on the lookout for further information. A lot of devs hate physical tire models because 1. They are very complex and require a lot of dedicating processing power. 2. They are very hard to get right (just ask Reiza or iRacing). And, 3. They discourage modders due to the inherent complexity.
But, I think it was Marcel who said that if a game came with enough accurately modeled tire presets, modders could simply expand or shrink the width to fit the car they were trying to model. I'll be curious to see how this issue is tackled in TLG.
Yah I had a good chat with marcell and am aware of these aspects of tire models / physics engines , I Just don't want to publicly state things that marcell might not want public yet , It's probably all fine but unless I see things published or I know something is public I tend not to state or talk about things. This mostly just keeps things simple for me as I have lots of conversations with developers / bussinesses with projects in lots of different states and by having a firm rule for myself that I don't say stuff unless I have already seen it public , that way I don't risk sharing things that are not public yet :)
@@flyingphoenix113
Both cars demo'd were on a Pacejka based (so semi-empirical) model. I am using a collision algorithm of Sui and Hirshey, modified to sample the contact patch in more detail across the longitudinal and lateral axis. There are other tire models available, this is one of the things that are modular.
btw if you running 900deg on steering input on a escort of cause you wont be able to keep the car on track. if you didnt know escort has a short ratio steering box which on max at 540deg in real life. drive the escort with 540 deg and you'll see the becomes a whole different machine with amazing handling than to the norm 900deg.
You know this is a rig set up by the developer ?
7:15 35 years to pay the upfront cost back...
Neil's is part of big overn and a total overn Fanboy. Fact is air fryers are the future and all the cool kids air fry everything on the limit.
AIR FRY THE WORLD !
If he builds a solid template for modders, creates an in game store. And shares profits with modders. Could be the best way to get good content out considering he’s a 1 man team 😅
I mean he was the managing director over studio 397 for years. Im sure he has hundreds of hungry and eager engineers for any help he needs.
@@JustMamba fr? Oh dang, exciting stuff then!!
triple screen support and doesn't even have a name yet. Take notes codemasters.
So many wheel inputs! Doesnt look great!
how was the subtle frot end feel
Similar to AMS1 maybe a bit more refined , not as detailed as AC but then FFB was sharper and more reactive than AC , very smooth.
Very subtle for now.
I would have liked more ffb to explore the loading of the front tyres under braking and understeer. But the early signs are there. It was too subtle for my ffb preference right now.
@@LaurenceDusoswa Agreed. Marcel told us they had toned down the FFB so as not to overdo it. But IMO it was toned down too much. OTOH I have my 17NM DD at 100%, so...
Ok so please no one yell at me and follow along. Am I the only one that would be ok with the rear view being centered to prevent crossing screens? I say this about all sims and yes I know where the mirror is but I’m talking luxury. I think we are all mostly looking straight on the primary monitor anyway. Roast me idc I’m just wondering if anyone else has a thought?
Looks like iracing on a dirt track. I can't imagine any car slides that much in real life on tarmac.if you watch people learning to drift in real life it actually takes some skill.
Yeh but.. Is this another RENSPORT...a game that only a few get to play while the rest of us never get to try
Bloody Hell, there are letting anyone drive sims now!!
great.
It look like the steering input is not in sync. The wheel in your hand rotates 2times more than the animated wheel on the sim screen.
Because the in game wheel animation is not linked up , it wouldn't be a development priority at this point in time.
"These headphones aren't very good" *Looks at Sennheiser logo in confusion*
I use 595 & 599 at home , the ones on this rig didn't sound or feel so good , I think they are the Sennheiser G4me Zero Gaming Headphones which felt and sounded nothing like 595,599 sennheiser probably licenced some generic crap and then slapped there brand on it to sell to gamers.
I think the (Sennheiser Game One Open Acoustic Gaming Headset) use same driver as 595 and are probably ok but cost £161 , so might as well get 595s for £100 and stick an add on mic for 25-40.. Gaming headphones are prity much always a total scam.
@@GamerMuscleVideos whilst I am sure Senheiser has made newer and better headphones it is probably fair to say that currently the sound in-game is very basic so I think the blame for this is on me.
@@MarcelOffermans I enjoy my personal war on gaming headphones !
At some point i need to go through them all and see how they shape up.
I live 1 mile from that Bridgehampton track.... How was the rendering of the course? It's a golf course now.
It's identical to the Assetto Corsa mod with similar grip levels. I could have been fooled into thinking it's assetto corsa.
@@LaurenceDusoswa that's cool, All that's left is the home straight and the hill decent to about turn 3, now the driveway to the Bridge Golf club.
so great to hear feedback from an unbiased, IRL racing driver who can compare a virtual driving experience to similar experiences driving the same car on the same track ... oh .. wait ...
One doesn't have to be a real pilot or professional driver or soldier to be able to have an idea of a games physics are generally realistic or not !
Why this is such a hard concept for some people to understand is really bizar.
Great to read such unprejudiced comments from people who are extremely objective and can reason and argue constructi ... oh .. wait ...
Not complaining but interesting they chose such an old car (mk1 Escort!) as a demo. Assuming that track is not real-world and their own design?
Its a real world track that no longer exists
Riverside is a real track that no longer exists, and was modded into Assetto Corsa (and then RF2 if I am not mistaken) by Lilski. Lilski has agreed for his mod track to be used in this new engine. I have it in AC and it is really great.
It makes a lot of sense actually for a "first showing". The last thing they would want at such an early stage would be a direct comparison with a well known combo. GT3 at spa being the meme one.
They probably chose an older car because they move around a lot more. More tire flex, more suspension movement, less grip. All of these things put toghether will lead to a lot more information to the FFB and a better demonstration of what the engine is capable of.
Bridgehampton
ye having some time.
This looks very promising, but it seems to me simracing would most benefit from leveraging modern a.i. advances for physics modeling. I expect it’s already being used, but not talked about due to the potential profit involved.
AI on SIM? No need, it's existed in it's real form for years, called telemetry. Hence what Sims are/should be built on.
@@dinxsy8069 Telemetry is just data; it is not a.i. If it were as simple as just using real world telemetry, we would have the holy grail of physics by now. Analyzing and interpreting data is what a.i. is good at.
Car movement doesn't match the steering input. The guy is making huge turns and the car is barely moving in the direction of the turn.
Because the car is sliding ... This is why you have FFB so you can feel where the grip is and know how much to turn that is of use.
Over driving like I am in the video let's you work out where the grip of the tire is and basically test the grip many times per corner , which then let's you understand the physics quicker than if you drive into power slides with no correction as you have to drive in totally broken sims like iracing.
@@GamerMuscleVideos Maybe, but input to what I am seeing on screen does not look right to me.
Mr.Muscle, I love your vids but can you plleeeaaasseeee stop trying to chop down trees every time you drive lol.. looks like you are sawing logs my man 😉
Over driving like this is litrally the fastest way to feel and find the limit of a simulator.
Of course someone can robo drive gradually but then you are not testing the limit of a car or seeing how a car reacts to input.
Driving like this is the fastest way to see what a car can and cannot do and the fastest way to see what the nature of a games physics engine is.
RF1 meets NKPro... Say less, say less. Who do I give my money to?
Well more AMS1 to be honest , had a longer go after this video , but AMS1 is awsome and the main thing with this is that he has programmed the physics in a way that it would be much easer to licence / compartmentalize parts of the game without issues such as you might have with legacy game engines that were patched together over decades of work and with older methods in mind.
@@GamerMuscleVideos That's even better! If I were rich I'd start a foundation to fund this.
Hi
GaRaRge 😂😂😂
why bother? :)
What do you mean ? 😂
Because we might as well do something before the heat death of the universe.
@@HDRGamingHub I just mean it seems a forlorn quest when there are some absolutely massive sim companys now with users kinda tied in and invested, i cant see that landscape changing very easily or quickly
@@GamerMuscleVideos lol oh we be gone millenia before then ;)
Wait Niels in the physics guy for this sim!? If that is the case I LITERALLY CAN'T WAIT FOR IT!
Niels did the physics files physics data for the cars in this demo - Physics engine is programmed by Marcel Offermans.
That's a delicious combination. Also love the fact they are also using SimSteering2 wheelbase and Precision Sim Engineering wheel.
It's not delicious, it's crème de la crème of simracing.
@@viktorianas well said!
If Niels is involved (I'm happy that his talents are used again in a Sim), then it's a direct buy 🎉 .. as Niels is an expert for modelling cars on rFactor1 physics (he did all his cars on these physics, even at Reiza with GSCP and AMS1) it's most probable they got a license for a rFactor1/rFactor2 physics engine and Marcel is developing it further .. and also most probably if they use the rFactor2 engine they don't use the CPM tyre model, because at least Niels isn't convinced of it because it's too complex to get the results you want (and hard to correlate with real data), especially for modders..we will find out
It’s a buy from me when it has few laser scanned tracks etc , quality not quantity , as it’s from Marcel & I hope Marcel can finally spread his wings
it looks like they are hoping to sell this as an engine more than developing their own game on it. thats what i inferred from the various media about it
Both options are being considered at the moment,@@dalton-at-work. I definitely also want to create a new sim myself.
@@dalton-at-work They are making their own SIM but it's programmed in a well thought out way that leaves things open to many options both for themselves but also when it comes to licencing.
It looks controllable while being very dynamic and natural HOWEVER, it seems to have the same issue as everything in the rFactor engine: you have to basically almost snap the wheel to a seemingly pre-determinded angle then, when the slide's slip angle stops increasing, you have to immediately snap the steering wheel back to centre. So basically it's a very on/off snap-wheel-to-one-spot-then-snap-wheel-back-to-center control which is nothing like reality and nothing like how oversteer works in the only 3 game engines that do oversteer (especially power oversteer) fairly correctly, those being: Live For Speed, Netkar Pro, BeamNG Drive, and (sometimes, too vehicle/mod dependent) Assetto Corsa.
Is it therefore possible that does in fact use some aspects of the rFactor 1 or 2 physics engine - either aspects of the underlying tyre model or other parts of the underlying physics engine)? There are definitely similarities in the physics - some of those similarities are a good thing but some of those similarities are a bad thing showing long-standing, unrealistic, unnatural vehicle behavior that is deeply rooted in the ISI physics engine going back to the 1990s' Sports Car GT and still present all the way to present-day rFactor 2.
I think at 6:22 you alluded to exactly what I described above.
Yah it's weird isn't it , I don't quite know why LFM,AC,nkp do
it right if it's a result of ballenced physics or if it's a specific fudged variable that makes the car stay in slip neutrally like a "drift mode" even if it's "fake" the end result is more realistic than cars basically only being capable of doing power slides as apposed to drifts.
I wonder if some of the ballence also comes from FFB being exactly with the game so the car auto steers the drift slide thus removing the "on off" aspect
Are you flying to Daytona for the 24 in MS flight sim again this year?
So, we have 3 types of simmers now: 1 - on/off grip lovers, iRacing, ACC, bland memory based racing. 2 - react to losing grip fast or you will end up in a ditch, AC, RF2, AMS1, RaceRoom, RBR, very dynamic, reflex based natural driving. 3 - grip is infinite whenever you touch the brake pedal, AMS2, PC2, DiRT Rally 2.0, EA WRC, you drive to have fun, physics are here to help you.
not a bad summary :D
Wow you 2 work well together, please do more!!!!!!
Thanks so much for the kind words
What's that guys channel? I couldn't understand GM.
What wheelbase were you testing on and what will bases are going to be supported? This is something that’s always excluded for most reviews about upcoming games and it’s almost crucial anymore when something uses the word Sim in it that it better have support for all high-end direct drive wheels
Also, it would be nice to note that company should hear more about AI being decent. I’m tired of all racing. Sims have great physics but no AI to race against because in the end people do get tired of continuously competing online and it can be enjoyable to have really good AI to race against with friends in private lobbies
your bold head looks too shiny in mirrored mode. I FEEL OFFENSED! But seriously, great to see a breath of fresh air!
And keep the content coming!
If you didn't specify, I would've thought you were playing Assetto Corsa with mods.
Will there ever be a Wipeout64 mod for AC? I can't wait to play that for some latenight fun😁🍄🛸☢😉
this will take years before samting come out but its good there its coming new studios chalance the big ones
Garage Brand
Go Marcel, Go!!! Why so much physical wheel rotation GM?
Just how it was set up and I was over driving to get a feel of what the sim is like
Old car, "slow" rack?
i want newer studios to look at beamng and how that sim connects the tires to the road.
I wonder how the editable data files look like compared to AC.
Brand new physics and Bridgehampton? Count me in. 😊
feels like you're driving a boat
looks the the steering wheel has to move 2 or 3 times more aggressively than in real life to keep the car on the track. Not a good impression. Maybe the wheel set up was just wrong?
I was just over driving , it's actually a good sign that it allows you to correct slides , also older cars allow for much more active wheel input.
I have another video and you see later in this I was doing less wheel input as I was driving calmer.
@@GamerMuscleVideos I bow to your greater knowledge. Just looked a wee bit odd. Mind you if you were to see how I drive in sims you might thing the same :)
imagine if they release a demo so we can play
Isn't Marcel Offermans with studio 397? This also looks like Bridgehampton, no?
maybe try watching the video
@@jasonoak4564 I obviously did
GamerMuscle - I know you like to give your Channel that "comedy Shtick" that separates you from others. But I genuinely GENUINELY wanted to know your impressions of this exciting new Sim. As we seem to have the same thoughts about what we both like (& dislike) in current sims. So as that original AC Fanboy myself - I was so excited to watch this video to get your personal thoughts on it. ; )))
I see GPL in this, the grandad of sims. If they can nail the online side of things to be like iRacing but without being raped on content costs and still able to use the game without a monthly sub. Few key cars and tracks and not the latest and greatest car combo only for it to become "unpopular" then dead
I wonder what company will build the race game with that game engine. Its obviously too much work for these guys to make a game out of it, but they will surely make a few $$
Surprised you drove it in triples without lock to horizon haha
I can cope with lock to car for short periods of time , issue is doing 3+ hour live streams , glancing at chat and all the other stuff lol.
But yah ideally some form of cam smoothing would be nice 🤣
@@GamerMuscleVideoswait why do i get motion sick or smth ???
AMS 3......?
From the video perspective it seems to be closer to AC (by how I see you responding with the wheel and how the camera in the game moves) it would be interesting to see a new competitor in the field :)
Looks like a (snow) rally sim, based on steering wheel movements ;)
You need to talk about the Fanatec issues with order fullfillment
Bring it!
Another 16 minutes of my life gone watching GM having fun.......where's that bottle of Whisky ;-)
The wheel rotation is wrong!!!111eleven
Please, you two should pair up more often. Podcast, maybe.
Sounds like this game nails the fact that cars are easy to drive, but hard to drive fast. Too many fall for the idea that goes back to GPL that hard equals realistic.
I’ve heard “modular” used to describe this game. What’s it mean? (Would love a full API that’s allow user-developed AI, rules, etc.)
Reminded me a lot of AMS1 when I spent more time on it , AC still in my opinion has better general regrip after grip loss and.more detailed ffb.
But main value of this SIM is that it's in an open source graphics engine and that it's been programmed from the ground up to be properly Modular as a realistic physics engine. By Modular for example graphics networking physics are not tied to eachother such that removing one component brakes another.
Thanks for the kind words Jean-Pierre!
As for the modular aspect, from what I gathered, and Marcel said this himself, that if in 10 years you want to swap out the graphics, the physics, the UI, etc, you can just do that quite easily without affecting the other aspects of the sim. This is exceptionally exciting I think and comes from a very credible source. Marcel is one of the most experienced sim racing devs out there, so he's not just imagining a great solution, he's got years of mistakes and wisdom built into this sim. That's why it feels like it has AAA potential. He also knows what sim racers want. Building in triple screen support from the start shows that. He didn't bring 'easy' cars to the expo. He brought two cars that want to kill you, and they were both driveable and enjoyable.
Anyways, thanks for the nice comment
LD
Spinning hands simulator.
My favorite thing about this channel is that it’s a safe space for talking about how objectively bad iracings tire physics are
Nice drift sim game.😂
What about running a competition to name the sim?
That is not a bad idea at all. My first step though is to further define what features and content go into it before it makes sense to try and come up with a good name.
@@MarcelOffermans You already have a good name :p hahahaha
Looks great to me
The priority should be realism, not making it fun and easily recoverable.
Realistic cars are fun and easy to recover , that's precisely why driving is fun even when people are quite slow.
People buy too much into the marketing surrounding Motorsport that you have to be some driving god to not crash when over driving a bit.
It's really hard to be 1 second on pace in a short period of time and that's the real skill.
If you have a basic feel for counter steer It's really not hard to not spin or crash when overdriving a car a bit.
have you ever seen an old ford escort driven in anger?