Different Cultures, Different Arts, Different Uniform, Different Technique, Different perspective, Different world + Different Experience And same Dangerous Decision.
Very interesting session! I think among many things that gets misunderstood about Japanese katana its their reach - before the Edo period, blades were far longer and in the range of "Longsword" compared to what we are used to have with a katana of 70-75 cm blade length. In fact, many of museum blades and on the private market bear the signs of suriage or ōsuriage, which implies that the blade had been shortened at the tang. After the Edo period, among many laws of etiquette passed, the length of longsword was set and many previous blades were cut down too. Ubu (original) blades of such dimensions were intended for one handed use and were defined as katateuchi 片手打. It is also a fair point about the gauntlet sticking out that much from the tsuba, which is not adjusted to take into account the dimension of said protection. A longer blade with a bigger tsuba would be a much better representation of period katana and tachi in my opinion. Overall very interesting video!
Interesting, so, the Katana was longer, then was what I call tachi even longer too? Or simply the Katana was Tachi sized before the Edo period? Out of curiosity.
@@FedericoMalagutti Just different words implying the same thing. There were Tachi that was as short as Edo period katana for better deployment, basically the length and curvature depends entirely on user's preference in both war time and peace time.
@@FedericoMalagutti The eternal question, what is a tachi and what is a katana! I'll try to make it short but I'll suggest you to look after Markus Sesko or Kōkan Nagayama definitions. It is quite complicated because it is a definition that changed over time. Usually you would say a katana is shorter with Edo period length definition, which were set at 2 shaku and 9 bun iirc. However this is based on the notion that there was a standard length in place, which was the case only after the 1630-40s. Tachi are longer because they also have a longer history, being used since the 900s. Nanbokuchō (1300s -1400) period tachi were longer, pretty much in Longsword/warsword range. Katana were shorter at that time and usually one hand (you can look at some period emaki such as the 日蓮聖人註画賛). By the mid to late 16th century, you distinguish them by the koshirae (fittings) and where the signature is more than the length. I have seen katana in ubu form with 86 cm blade length, but it is still katana. TL;DR it is mainly post Edo/ modern period classification that does not necessarilly work with period examples.
Another way to put it is in reference to small sword and rapier. Immagine that they would had been called the same name through different periods, with the addition that older rapiers would have been shortened en masse during the 18th century and re hilted. I think applying this excercise allow you to see the situation with Japanese swords and their dimensions ;)
@@lucanic4328 ok thank you for the explanation. Now it's easier to understand. While I'm passionate of Japanese swordsmanship I never ended up looking into this nuances.
I personally think the sigi katana is a terrible representation. Not dissing on Sigi of course, the durability and safety is spot on as always, but the hexagonal blade shape of the katana is what makes alot of technique works like Kiri Otoshi for example, and can't be done properly with a flat blade like Sigi. A better representation should be the katana from Akado Armoury
@@jaketheasianguy3307 yup I understand well what you mean, but I'm a little concerned with thrusting and accidents. The SIGI is good in mitigating such things, while I perfectly agree on the fact of the shape.
Lovely demonstration. Some very fun sparring and I appreciated both the caveats that you offered in what you could represent and your detailed analysis! Always fun seeing these mixed systems. Keep is up.
@@FedericoMalagutti I saw in another comment you were curious about nihonto lengths earlier than the Edo period. I just posted a video on my channel systematically looking at surviving swords from these old blades (and comparing them to historical longswords!) I don’t know it will let me link in the comments but it should be the second video on my channel at present.
As a kendoka turned Fiorist you did very well and thanks for the honest humilty whereby it isn't about which sword is definitively better but the styles and usage of weapons differ due to the design. In terms of techniques there are a lot of similarities between the two arts. But one of them is due to the lack of a frontale (no crossguard), modify your parries to be a finestra type to block all high cuts, and to protect upper sides drop the tip of your blade so the opponent's will slide down the curve. The default stance of a kendoka is the 'breve' so that mitigates against stabs. Legs are the tricky one, there is a block but in my opinion it takes far too long to execute in a spar with steel. Better to use footwork to evade. Use the back edge of the katana to trap and displace cleverly as well. You could also "half sword" the katana for leverage. For your height and size the "Fiore ultimate parry" from a coda-longa type of position could also be a viable option. Looking forward to seeing you with your Sigi katana!
As a practitioner of both HEMA and Kenjutsu, I find that Kenjutsu bears more similarities to messer fighting than to longsword fighting. Think Talhoffer messer, but with more two handed techniques.
You do see a lot of higher, tighter guards in Japanese sword schools; sometimes it's to obscure reach, but it's also because the predominant cut is typically downward across the torso (kesagiri). It's been mentioned your sword is too short for you, what with medieval heights and conventions, but one thing curiously absent was using the shortness to close in and stay there, maybe pinning with one hand and attacking with the other. That's also fairly common; some schools would even close in with large weapons and transition to smaller swords or daggers.
I'm seeing a lot of hira seigan here. I'm not sure how it is used in other kenjutsu styles, but in kendo it is typically used to collapse distance on an opponent who is resolved to take degote (hand snipe) and set up a hiki-man or nuki-dou.
Hello Federico great video as usual. Some feedback, I did also run this experiment and while using the Katana against a long sowrd and I got destroyed too. I noticed that to use it affectively you need to get in close to your opponent, a bit too close for comfort. I think that the Katana seems s do best when used to attack the core of the boy directly which is very risky. I see you ran into the same problem as me when transferring long sword fighting into a katana. I will work to some else but will create shortcomings because the distances and the range of the weapon as it all plays a part. I think the Katakana is built with the mentality of high risk high reward and when you fight conservatively against a longer weapon you are playing a loosing game. That's What I lead from that experience.
For science you might try very rapidly closing distance with single tempo covered cuts. Be willing to get hit with the gear on as an experiment. We fencers may lean too heavily on European style defense with the katana. It looks like a sword that favors the aggressor. This is of course easier said than done. Cool vid!
The Tsuba probably served the same purpose as it did on the Rondel, to protect the unarmored part of a hand in plate gloves. I think a sparring match with medium armor rules would also be interesting, since a lot of kenjutsu and early longsword come from a time when your opponent very likely would have at least had a gambeson and gloves, maybe a helmet, maybe some plate etc and the Japanese equivalent. Actually I'll probably just go make my club try this out.
Well, the entirety of Longsword I study is meant to fight without armor, in civilian self-defence scenarios and in one on one duels, it definitely adapt to the partial armor situation when needed. Same is for many Japanese fighting styles, some of them (Like Katori Shinto) are for (or also for) armored fighting, while many others are for self defence in civilian scenarios. After all, most people carried weapons, but armor was far from being everywhere every time.
Longsword is a synthetic analog? Close to actual weight of steel longsword I believe. Wooden bokens however are about half the weight of a steel katana and therefore about twice as fast. I speak from experience. I suspect Miyamoto Mushashi eventually eschewed steel for wood for that very reason, as an unarmored duelist who is unintmidated by a live blade(!) It makes sense.
This is interesting, although I think HEMA gear may limit the usefulness of the katana. For example, the bulkiness of the sparring gloves doesn't allow for the proper grip, and it makes the tsuba unable to protect the hands and wrist. Otherwise, these sort of weapon experiments are a great way to compare weapons and learn more about how each one works.
You are right, but on the grip I have to tell you that both with Longsword and this bokken I was able to grip the sword pretty well, inside the sparring glove I am able to move my fingers far more than how it seems from the outside
I find Katana are widely, broadly misunderstood. I highly recommend some form of Kobudo, if you are really interested. Budo today are things like HEMA, kendo, and iaido. Kobudo, there is no nice way to put it, is basically the ancient art of killing, and some are incredibly practical. Surprisingly so. Bored Samurai, in the Edo (also trying to maintain their usefulness for the status they were given), created jui-jutsu, or at least the art as far as, until whichever Gracie it was, took it home to Brazil and put his own twist on it. Much like Eddie Bravo has done, from that, with 10th Planet. The samurai spirit lives on in every MMA, else their game has holes in it. Tested, proven in the forges.
A cut is a cut, a thrust is a thrust, violence is violence. You don't need to learn a traditional style to use the thing if you already know how to use a 2 handed sword with proper form
@FedericoMalagutti I also study Shinto Muso ryu! I was just wondering, did you get to learn Kasumi Shinto ryu as well. I believe that's the name of the kenjutsu Shinto Muso ryu teaches.
@@jaketheasianguy3307 It's not about the style, but the more physic way like difference in reach, weight, handle length blablabla. And you definitely need to work it out, which learn from someone who familiar with the weapon is going to help a lot.
Different Cultures, Different Arts, Different Uniform, Different Technique, Different perspective, Different world + Different Experience And same Dangerous Decision.
Very interesting session!
I think among many things that gets misunderstood about Japanese katana its their reach - before the Edo period, blades were far longer and in the range of "Longsword" compared to what we are used to have with a katana of 70-75 cm blade length. In fact, many of museum blades and on the private market bear the signs of suriage or ōsuriage, which implies that the blade had been shortened at the tang. After the Edo period, among many laws of etiquette passed, the length of longsword was set and many previous blades were cut down too.
Ubu (original) blades of such dimensions were intended for one handed use and were defined as katateuchi 片手打.
It is also a fair point about the gauntlet sticking out that much from the tsuba, which is not adjusted to take into account the dimension of said protection.
A longer blade with a bigger tsuba would be a much better representation of period katana and tachi in my opinion.
Overall very interesting video!
Interesting, so, the Katana was longer, then was what I call tachi even longer too? Or simply the Katana was Tachi sized before the Edo period? Out of curiosity.
@@FedericoMalagutti Just different words implying the same thing. There were Tachi that was as short as Edo period katana for better deployment, basically the length and curvature depends entirely on user's preference in both war time and peace time.
@@FedericoMalagutti The eternal question, what is a tachi and what is a katana! I'll try to make it short but I'll suggest you to look after Markus Sesko or Kōkan Nagayama definitions.
It is quite complicated because it is a definition that changed over time. Usually you would say a katana is shorter with Edo period length definition, which were set at 2 shaku and 9 bun iirc. However this is based on the notion that there was a standard length in place, which was the case only after the 1630-40s.
Tachi are longer because they also have a longer history, being used since the 900s. Nanbokuchō (1300s -1400) period tachi were longer, pretty much in Longsword/warsword range.
Katana were shorter at that time and usually one hand (you can look at some period emaki such as the 日蓮聖人註画賛).
By the mid to late 16th century, you distinguish them by the koshirae (fittings) and where the signature is more than the length. I have seen katana in ubu form with 86 cm blade length, but it is still katana.
TL;DR it is mainly post Edo/ modern period classification that does not necessarilly work with period examples.
Another way to put it is in reference to small sword and rapier. Immagine that they would had been called the same name through different periods, with the addition that older rapiers would have been shortened en masse during the 18th century and re hilted.
I think applying this excercise allow you to see the situation with Japanese swords and their dimensions ;)
@@lucanic4328 ok thank you for the explanation. Now it's easier to understand.
While I'm passionate of Japanese swordsmanship I never ended up looking into this nuances.
Great content! Looking forward to a vid with a sigi katana!
Thanks mate ;-)
I personally think the sigi katana is a terrible representation. Not dissing on Sigi of course, the durability and safety is spot on as always, but the hexagonal blade shape of the katana is what makes alot of technique works like Kiri Otoshi for example, and can't be done properly with a flat blade like Sigi. A better representation should be the katana from Akado Armoury
@@jaketheasianguy3307 yup I understand well what you mean, but I'm a little concerned with thrusting and accidents. The SIGI is good in mitigating such things, while I perfectly agree on the fact of the shape.
Lovely demonstration. Some very fun sparring and I appreciated both the caveats that you offered in what you could represent and your detailed analysis! Always fun seeing these mixed systems. Keep is up.
Thanks ;-)
@@FedericoMalagutti I saw in another comment you were curious about nihonto lengths earlier than the Edo period. I just posted a video on my channel systematically looking at surviving swords from these old blades (and comparing them to historical longswords!) I don’t know it will let me link in the comments but it should be the second video on my channel at present.
Nice sparring session.
Thank you!
As a kendoka turned Fiorist you did very well and thanks for the honest humilty whereby it isn't about which sword is definitively better but the styles and usage of weapons differ due to the design.
In terms of techniques there are a lot of similarities between the two arts. But one of them is due to the lack of a frontale (no crossguard), modify your parries to be a finestra type to block all high cuts, and to protect upper sides drop the tip of your blade so the opponent's will slide down the curve. The default stance of a kendoka is the 'breve' so that mitigates against stabs. Legs are the tricky one, there is a block but in my opinion it takes far too long to execute in a spar with steel. Better to use footwork to evade. Use the back edge of the katana to trap and displace cleverly as well. You could also "half sword" the katana for leverage. For your height and size the "Fiore ultimate parry" from a coda-longa type of position could also be a viable option.
Looking forward to seeing you with your Sigi katana!
Thanks ;-)
This is great! Perhaps in the future you can cover some katana drills and possibly break down the similarities between the longsword and katana.
I will consider this, thanks ;-)
As a practitioner of both HEMA and Kenjutsu, I find that Kenjutsu bears more similarities to messer fighting than to longsword fighting. Think Talhoffer messer, but with more two handed techniques.
@@tatumergo3931 Nami Ryu
Specifically the Masa Katsu branch.
You do see a lot of higher, tighter guards in Japanese sword schools; sometimes it's to obscure reach, but it's also because the predominant cut is typically downward across the torso (kesagiri). It's been mentioned your sword is too short for you, what with medieval heights and conventions, but one thing curiously absent was using the shortness to close in and stay there, maybe pinning with one hand and attacking with the other. That's also fairly common; some schools would even close in with large weapons and transition to smaller swords or daggers.
Non potevo non mettere "like" a questo video, visto che l'ho richiesto. Grazie Federico. :)
;-)
Your sign off always reminds me of the old Cities of Gold cartoon. The narrator in the English dub closed the show out with a very similar inflection.
Pratico kendo e mi piacerebbe tanto provare hema. Sembra molto interessante.
I love katana vs longsword so how about that? Ha ha if you do that it will be thankful ㅜㅜㅜ
I'm seeing a lot of hira seigan here. I'm not sure how it is used in other kenjutsu styles, but in kendo it is typically used to collapse distance on an opponent who is resolved to take degote (hand snipe) and set up a hiki-man or nuki-dou.
Hello Federico great video as usual. Some feedback, I did also run this experiment and while using the Katana against a long sowrd and I got destroyed too. I noticed that to use it affectively you need to get in close to your opponent, a bit too close for comfort. I think that the Katana seems s do best when used to attack the core of the boy directly which is very risky. I see you ran into the same problem as me when transferring long sword fighting into a katana. I will work to some else but will create shortcomings because the distances and the range of the weapon as it all plays a part. I think the Katakana is built with the mentality of high risk high reward and when you fight conservatively against a longer weapon you are playing a loosing game. That's What I lead from that experience.
For science you might try very rapidly closing distance with single tempo covered cuts. Be willing to get hit with the gear on as an experiment. We fencers may lean too heavily on European style defense with the katana. It looks like a sword that favors the aggressor. This is of course easier said than done. Cool vid!
Bokuto vs synthetic seems a fair equivalent. You should grab a sigi xl katana. They are really nice.
U joined the dark side
Konnichiwa Hema nakama
Hehehe! Love it!
Black fencer has synthetics with correct weights, also steel blunts, be it feders or sparring blunts. They even have two sharps.
They also have exotic swords like katanas and jians, steel or synth.
Yeah I know, I used this as it’s the same used by Seki Sensei in his video!
The Tsuba probably served the same purpose as it did on the Rondel, to protect the unarmored part of a hand in plate gloves.
I think a sparring match with medium armor rules would also be interesting, since a lot of kenjutsu and early longsword come from a time when your opponent very likely would have at least had a gambeson and gloves, maybe a helmet, maybe some plate etc and the Japanese equivalent.
Actually I'll probably just go make my club try this out.
Well, the entirety of Longsword I study is meant to fight without armor, in civilian self-defence scenarios and in one on one duels, it definitely adapt to the partial armor situation when needed. Same is for many Japanese fighting styles, some of them (Like Katori Shinto) are for (or also for) armored fighting, while many others are for self defence in civilian scenarios. After all, most people carried weapons, but armor was far from being everywhere every time.
That said, it would be indeed interesting. Yes.
I have a Sigi Mini longsword, it is 86cm of blade and i find very interesting for Fiore's short play
Longsword is a synthetic analog? Close to actual weight of steel longsword I believe. Wooden bokens however are about half the weight of a steel katana and therefore about twice as fast. I speak from experience.
I suspect Miyamoto Mushashi eventually eschewed steel for wood for that very reason, as an unarmored duelist who is unintmidated by a live blade(!) It makes sense.
That synthetic is around 50% of a Longsword weight.
Roger that
why would you use a short katana against a longsword?
If you get the sigi get the XL. It’s more relative to a longsword lengthwise 🤺
Yes, I already had that one in mind too ;-)
This is interesting, although I think HEMA gear may limit the usefulness of the katana. For example, the bulkiness of the sparring gloves doesn't allow for the proper grip, and it makes the tsuba unable to protect the hands and wrist. Otherwise, these sort of weapon experiments are a great way to compare weapons and learn more about how each one works.
You are right, but on the grip I have to tell you that both with Longsword and this bokken I was able to grip the sword pretty well, inside the sparring glove I am able to move my fingers far more than how it seems from the outside
It is unfortunate because thrusting is, as far as I know, considered the fastest attack in katana swordsmanship.
I think you needed to use smaller gloves
I really like to have the number of joints I already have on my fingers ;-)
I find Katana are widely, broadly misunderstood. I highly recommend some form of Kobudo, if you are really interested. Budo today are things like HEMA, kendo, and iaido. Kobudo, there is no nice way to put it, is basically the ancient art of killing, and some are incredibly practical. Surprisingly so. Bored Samurai, in the Edo (also trying to maintain their usefulness for the status they were given), created jui-jutsu, or at least the art as far as, until whichever Gracie it was, took it home to Brazil and put his own twist on it. Much like Eddie Bravo has done, from that, with 10th Planet. The samurai spirit lives on in every MMA, else their game has holes in it. Tested, proven in the forges.
... It may be a good idea to train in a traditional sword style before doing this.
I mean, the whole point of the video is that I'm doing another thing and I try a Katana. Anyway, I trained in Shindo Muso Ryu Jo-Do for four years.
A cut is a cut, a thrust is a thrust, violence is violence. You don't need to learn a traditional style to use the thing if you already know how to use a 2 handed sword with proper form
@FedericoMalagutti I also study Shinto Muso ryu! I was just wondering, did you get to learn Kasumi Shinto ryu as well. I believe that's the name of the kenjutsu Shinto Muso ryu teaches.
@@josephlucas4024 i unluckily wasn’t able to go that far
@@jaketheasianguy3307 It's not about the style, but the more physic way like difference in reach, weight, handle length blablabla. And you definitely need to work it out, which learn from someone who familiar with the weapon is going to help a lot.