My first thoughts of the monitoring room: very aesthetically pleasing, minimalistic and almost like if people were in prayer, in a spiritual trance. My thoughts of the ornithopter front gunner were that he had some kind of "augmented perception", then I thought "oh it's just like zoomed detection whatever", like a chunky, almost sphinx like head piece... Ngl the more this movie marinates with me the more I like it 😂it has so much soul, like its own identity. Thank you for the video.
In Dune messiah there is a scene where they talk about eye prosthetics made by the tleilaxu for people who have lost their vision, I think is very interesting because it's a clear reference in how advanced the technology and medicine are in Dune yet so much is operated manually
I believe the operator in the aircraft was just wearing a helmet that was connected to onbord sensors/ turrets like the helmet of a AH-64 Apache Gunner/ pilot. The sensors he was monitoring seemed to be only tracking "life" as he makes the call, "life, Delta Delta" while looking down and to the right.
I read a comment a while back the said the scanner operator was using thermals to track the Fremmen, which sort of makes sense in a colder, nighttime environment like the start of that sequence. It might also explain how the operator lost the lock on them when Arrakis’s hot sun came out, which could have messed with calibration. I don’t know though lol, just an idea!
I thought it was kind of weird how the hologram of Arrakis they were looking at what kind of blink like it wasnt working right. I guess it's bc Raban keeps slamming people's heads into the console 😂
I'm a Anime fan. There's one called Orguss 02. The tech level is the same of DUNE. During the first episode the main characters are in a flying transport. On the flight deck,there is a table with markings that look like a radar screen. Hovering over the table is a small ball. There is a bald man near the table with his arms hovering over the table. He was the radar system.
Heh, I just finished retranslating that for fun (the commercial release ranges from wrong to entirely made up). I always loved the use of Seekers (psychics) in lieu of radar. And Lt. Manning is the most gleefully dickish character ever. The world's tech level is post-World War I, though. Minus the high-tech stuff they've been excavating.
The problem I had with those hybrids is that in Dune canon it will be at least another 5000 years before we see the first one in Chapterhouse: Dune , Clairby. It doesn't mean it wasn't done before but House Harkonnen would never have risked the ire of the Landsraad. It looked cool but it made no sense. Also humanity was now more efficient than machines. And the Guild did not allow any satellites in the Northern Hemisphere...
On the Guild satellite comment, IIRC the Guild did have satellites but they charged a fortune to control them. In the film, I'm guessing (if it was ever even thought about BTS) that the Harkonnens have access to satellite data w/ these operators. They're one of the only "big rich" houses that can afford it. Its just a guess that they were paying the Guild for satellite access or control. In this case, based on the assumption that the south was uninhabitable, I'm guessing they didn't push the issue for southern satellites or in the deep desert, which the Fremen would have bribed the Guild to keep satellite free. A few quotes from the book that helped me arrive at this conclusion: “Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.” “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.” "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
@@NerdCookiesThe Guild did not allow satellites over Arrakis-Whether it was explicit or implicit. The Guild used price as an excuse, but the reality was no cost would be enough. The Guild was bribed in Spice not to allow satellites, by Arrakis’ true masters-The Fremen. In Dune Part 1-The Baron said that “there are no satellites over Arrakis, the Atreides will die in the dark.”
Thank you for covering this. I was fascinated with the all too brief scene with the hivemind operators since it revealed a bit more of the Harkonnen aesthetic and contrasting methodology. I hope in vain for a show delving more into the world of the Harkonnen.
Initially, I had the impression that the operators were basically wearing an advanced version of a VR headset. Though, upon closer inspection, it does look like the hardware might be more integrated/invasive than that.
We do know that Piter had a connection to the Tleilaxu, and the (admittedly non-canonical) Dune Encyclopedia even posits the unanswered question that he may have been one of their Ghola agents, quietly overseeing Tleilaxu affairs during the events of the first book. The Tleilaxu are known for their metal eyes and other nigh-taboo bio-mechanical enhancements. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that they augmented the brains of a cadre of Harkonnen Mentats to maximize the surveillance of Spice Production on a planetary scale. Just a theory.
I remember an excerpt somewhere in (Dune messiah? Or maybe children of Dune) that reflects on twisted mentants and says that the houses/figures who acquire them from the Tleilaxu don’t seem to understand that the mentants often have their own goals and ambitions in mind that don’t necessarily align with theirs.
@@Allen667sjjaI think this was in children. I may be wrong though 😂 I know the sentiments around the BH novels and their legitimacy as canon, but I actually liked Paul Of Dune and think it was in that one where they go into detail about the Piter gholas.
Thats because when Moebius did the original storyboards for Jodorowsky's Dune this was a specific scene from that version. When DeLaurentis acquired the rights to film Dune he got a copy of the storyboards, script and concept art that was doing the rounds of Hollywood, and "stole" many of the ideas for Flash Gordon, including the control room scene.
I am reminded of the Borg from Star Trek, only this makes more sense. The Harkonens skirt both Imperial decree and religious law, without strictly violating either.
exept when it came to customs and religion they were stated to have been incredibly conservative. so they likely would have had an extreme disgust for ix.
Nice interpretation, and deepens the lore/headcanon behind these operator guys. However I'm sure this is reading into Villeneuve's intentions a bit much. Based on the way talked about his take on the Harkonnens in general, I think he only cared about showing them as more technologically advanced than the Fremen (likely the Atreides too), and when it came to the operators he had a specific homage/reference to a french bande dessinee art who's name escapes me
Limited cybernetics (machine eyes), automated systems (poison snoopers) data storage devices (Paul's holobooks) are all seen in the first two books. It's not a stretch to have this kind of tech in the movie.
I loved the depiction of the harkonen military here, in the books they’re never really elaborated on to any great degree but they’re kinda just depicted as thugs only following their authoritarian leader out of fear mainly
IX specializes in technology and has been suspected of pushing the limits of what they are allowed to build. Ships that don't need spice are possible, hunter seekers, etc.
This was my favorite scene from the movie, second of all reading comments it boils my blood at "HUR dur this isn't faithful to the books"... bro it's a fkin 1960s book, Herbert himself woulda been loving this if he saw it, in fact when Leto was talking about sandworm Approaching, there was a line in a book saying "& Leto slams the microphone when shouting at the men" slamming a microphone, ITS FKIN 1960s!!!!
There's a more direct influence than Drulliet. And that's Jean Giraud (Moebius) and specifically his storyboards for Jodorowsky's Dune adaption. There is even a sequence illustrated where one of the guys has his goggles pulled off revealing that they are actually wired into his eye sockets, which was copied by Dino DeLaurentis for Flash Gordon.
The "bribes to keep satellites from overflying the southern hemisphere" thing never made sense. You can't have satellites *not* overfly just one hemisphere. In context, you can tell that Herbert thought they worked like spy planes, rather than devices out in space traveling in an ellipse around the planet.
@@matthewconnor5483But ONLY, PRECISELY over the equator. At very low orbital altitude. Which is a very dumb contrivance. Something in geosynchronous orbit would have a pretty clear view. Ironically, those *do* have to be directly over the equator while LAO (low Arakeen orbit) satellites can go any which way.
@@CantankerousDave about the only orbit that would give you a total view of a planet is a sun synchronous orbit which is what many of the imaginary satellites use.
Satellites were banned over all of Arrakis. This Southern Hemisphere myth you’re dealing with, I don’t know where you got it from. There are no satellites whatsoever, over Arrakis. Not one.
There's anti-gravity technology in Dune. Satellites don't have to rotate around a planet to stay in orbit, they can simply hover over the same spot continuously.
I think that the operators are Ixian in origin and not lower level Mentats. I could be wrong, but I can explain my line of thinking. In the Dune Encyclopedia (which is admittedly self contradictory on many things) they discuss Mentats and how they tend to train in combat skills in order to protect themselves from assassination by various ideological groups who think that Mentats are a violation of the prohibition on thinking machines. It goes into some detail of lower level Mentats and how they function, from top level Simulationist Mentats like Thufir Hawat to Mentats whose only ability is vast amounts of memorization. The alternative to naturally trained Mentats is twisted Mentats, which are a Tleilaxu product. This suggests that there is a wide range of interpretation of the Orange Catholic Bible and how it applies in practice. At the same time there are various schools with superhuman abilities similar to the Mentats and the Bene Gesserit detailed. The Suk school of medicine, according to the Dune Encyclopedia, trained its adherents to be able to sniff unknown plants and determine what their medicinal use might be, if any. Effectively Suk doctors are human bloodhounds in addition to their conditioning to do no harm. So there are multiple schools that push the boundaries of natural human ability in the way that the Mentats and Bene Gesserit did. Ixians are the center of technological development in the Imperium. So it seems logical that they would have a school dedicated to training candidates to use their brains as a substitute for thinking machines while interfacing with Ixian technology. It also makes sense that they would be considered to be potentially violating the taboo on thinking machines by a broader swath of people than the Mentats are given the visible interface with machines compared to the Mentats only doing their simulations and calculations in their own minds. That's why I think that they're Ixian in origin, but frankly your guess is as good as mine and I'm just glad that I"m not the only person who tilted their head and went "huh" when I saw them onscreen.
if I remember correctly the House of IX was one of House Artraides staunchest supporters after they were aided against an attack from another Great House
kinda reminds me of the guild handlers from lynch dune. the head gear resembling a vr headset is probably just a telepresence display. probably tied directly into the thopter's sensor pod. that need not be a computing device per se, but a dumb display. the neural interface on the other hand would definitely be a violation of the strictures of the jihad, though it might be a legal loophole the harkonnens explot. both are simple cases of wanting to add tech fluff to make the setting seem more futuristic for general audiences, but the movies also give cues of repressed technology (eg the mechanical gauges in the thopters or irulan's recording device). i think its a good contrast. one thing lynch dune does that i found really clever was when paul is training on the fighting mek, they make sure to clear and lock the room before hand, because they know what they do could be seen as wrong by the others not in the inner circle. the bene gesserit are also known to secretly use actual computers for their genetic programs. because that kind of work would be impossible otherwise. it is not indicated by the books but the tleilaxu may also be doing the same, as they are also big on genetic manipulation.
I've only seen the movies once and am anticipating the delivery of my copy to rewatch for such details. That being said, as you point out this tech is probably coming from the Ixians or Tleilax. Both of these skirt the OCB, but they have been doing it for a long time with the tacit approval of the Emperor and the great houses (I assume). We perceive that the Atreides are honorable and do not use technology from these two sources, but what about the other houses? (As far as I can remember) We do not see the other houses at all, so we don't see where they fall in a spectrum for the Atreides to the Harkonnens. I think most houses use the tech in one form or another with a nod and a wink at its supposed illegality and/or immorality.
Gotta admit I laughed out loud in the cinema when I saw these silly Harkonnen Borg and the realisation set in that this is what Villeneuve was trying to do with the Mentat concept in this context. Interestingly (and in my view, encouragingly), I wasn't the only one in the theatre that day who let out a bemused groan.
Using a mind a CPU for an instant global alert system is a perfectly viable application of mentats. What else are they going to do? Push buttons at lighting speed? Write down information really fast and give it to a page to update a map? That is very inefficeint and improbable.
I was surprised by how many references to later books were in this movie. *"Cyborg him!"* Mentioning reverend mothers from multiple cultures was another reference. So was the scene in the garden when Lady Fenring was talking Gaius Helen Mohiam. The premiss and structure of that scene is straight out of "Heretics of Dune" but with different character.
Also, I do think that the cybernetics are a way to prime the audience for what will happen in the second book with a "certain returning character's" eyes.
I see the operators as a necessity : they help to gather all the inputs from satellites, drones, etc in a single synthetic visualization. The machine part on them would allow them to update the visualization, the chanting is a way to stay in synchronized trance. Chanting is a simple way to have several people sharing a common pace.
@@gwell2118 I googled the book and am currently re-reading it. I see no mention of the Southern Hemisphere. Just that the Fremen bribe The Guild to keep the skies clear of satellites. And that Duke Leto was trying to negotiate with the Guild to allow House Atreides to orbit a frigate for use as a satellite. Thufir told the Duke that The Guild Mentant representative indicated to him that, no price would suffice to orbit a satellite.
When I saw the movie I thought the Harkonnen Operators were an inferior replacement for Piter de Vries, who was now dead. Whatever their purpose, I thought they were very interesting and I loved their synchronous chanting. The Harkonnen language was awesome all round tbh.
Well the thing with the films is they had to fill in some gaps in the world building. The books as detailed as they were didn't really go into a lot of detail into the non-house related aspects of the imperium's operations. Such as how the military functions, how automatic systems (like the holo-display) would function etc. So the film had to fill these in as it is a visual medium. What they did was create concepts on how these would function using techniques and technologies present in the books. Cybernetic integration was well established in the books so it stands to reason interfaces could be installed in operators to work advanced equipment. In this regard the individuals seem to be connected directly to the display and using their minds like the CPU.
The Harkonnen use of these human computers is bad but, the Bene Tleilax Axlotl tanks are just the worst. However, I'm surprised that no one considered using Vietnam level technology to do an Operation Center. No computers, just maps, protrators, radios, lots of pencils and paper. Heck, even a typewriter to do formal memorandums.
I’ll bet the Harkonnens employ low and high flying drones to map limited sections of Arrakis-Since satellites are banned in total, notwithstanding the mistaken claim by this video’s author, that there are satellites over the Northern Hemisphere.
That would be very impractical for a planatery scale survielance. Especially as it was shown the map can update in real time. The VIETNAM style was highly inaccurate and inefficient at times. The film obviously made some decisions to strike a middle ground between the rules of the universe and audience believability.
Basic computers are allowed under the Butlerian Jihad ban on Thinking Machines-And those computers’ capabilities could easily be augmented with Mentat Operators.
@@gwell2118 The surveillance isn’t planetary-We know this because The Imperium is utterly unaware of the Fremen population in the Southern Hemisphere. And since satellites are banned from Arrakis, we can only surmise that limited sectors of the planet are mapped-Most likely the Spice Fields, population centers in the North, and any lands that had been the site of Fremen hit and run attacks. I’d guess surveilled by a combination of spotter drones, like the ones that watch for Sandworms in the movies, and light ‘thopter aerial surveillance.
There are, they're just expensive to control. The fremen pay to keep their skies free if satellites and it stands to reason that the Harkonnens could also pay for satellite control as well as they're a wealthy house.
They reminded me of the imperial agents in the Flash Gordon movie. I think the pilot is just wearing a HUD. I don't think the Harkhonnen would be allowed to mechanically network mentats. Once again I think these are devices for relaying information mini speakers small projection devices where the wearer makes the computations.
I'd love to see a video about the Butlerian Jihad itself and how AI fought humanity. As seen in this video humanity has that flaw of repeating its mistakes over generations, so for it to uphold its distaste of AI for thousands of years, something horrific must have occurred.
The Spacing Guild does use and allow satellites but they charge a high price for satellite control. “Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.” "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep our skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.” “We know the Guild wants a prohibitive price for weather satellites. We know that-” “What’ve weather satellites to do with it?” she asked. “They couldn’t possibly....” She broke off. Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her reactions, computing on minutiae. “You see it now,” he said. “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
Easy. ‘thopter aerial surveillance and spotter drone aircraft. One could map the active spice fields with them. The map probably isn’t the entire planet. Just the parts at risk of attack. Where the Spice Harvesters are.
@NerdCookies You mentioned satellites over the northern hemisphere. I was left with the impression from the books that the Fremen had a deal with the Guild not to allow satellites over Arrakis in exchange of spice. Or is it only for the South?
This remark is an assumption based on what we saw in the movie with telemetry data strictly over the North. The book establishes that there are satellites but it costs a fortune to control them. The fremen pay to keep their skies (the deep desert) free of satellites.
In the Dune of David Lynch there was an episode with Thufir Hawat who is looking into some golden device with glimmering light. It looks like some kind of interface to provide the data to the brain of a mentat. And these Harkonnen operators look even like a reference to Lynch's Havat and his device. Maybe it is low level mentats who control the logistics and troops maneuvering. And a small remark about the beginning of the video. There can't be any satellite above Arrakis's surface. It was so in the book and it was confirmed by the Baron himself in the first part ("Atrides will die in the dark"). The Guild does not allow surveillance of the planet
Those are two things that Villeneuve added in his adaptation that are kind of betrayals of the original work by Frank Herbert. 1) Following to the Butlerian Jihad and the legal and religious banning of any kind of technology replicating the human mind in any way or shape (not just full IA), enhancing technology like the one proposed here would be considered so forbidden that any house, even the Harkonnens, would not take this kind of risks. These guys would be low to mid-level Mentats instead. Not all Mentats are as highly trained and efficient as both the Atreides Mentat, Thufir Hawat, and the HArkonne Mentat, Piter de Vries, are. These two are among the very best of the best in the Dune universe. But unfortunately, Villeneuve took the decision not to develop the lore about Mentats that are a deeply ingrained feature of the original Dune universe. Let it be clear: the Dune universe doesn't do IA, doesn't do independantly operating robots, doesn't even do very advanced computers and doesn't do cybernetics especially when it's directly connecting to the human mind; the Dune universe do various and very advanced forms of human development through differents schools (Mentats, Guild Navigators, Suk doctors, Bene Gesserit, etc...). Bottom line: you just don't emulate or enhance the human mind with technology, that's a huge no-no and it is not just "playing on the fringe of the law"; you train humans to their full potential and more and in the process you both respect humanity as it should be and hopefully push humans to always get better as a whole without relying on machines which was the downfall of the old empire. 2) Repeat after me: there are no satellite orbiting Arrakis. Absolutely none. Zero. The Spacing Guild, which is basically controlling everything that has to do with space, not just space travel and highliners, is putting a price tag so absurdly high on any single satellite there that no house, including the imperial one, has ever paid for it.
"...is putting a price tag so absurdly high on any single satellite" I'm pretty sure it's because the Fremen are bribing the guild to not put up satellites.
@@thorntonmellon May I propose an alternative answer? The Guild is interested on not having the House governing Arrakis to have global oversight on the planet. Why? Because the Guild is interested in having Spice illegal harvesters/smugglers being able to operate on the planet. They provide a secondary if illegal source of Melange the Guild might be relying on to build stockpiles (which is something forbidden but hey everybody do it so...)
Basic computer systems and programming languages would not breach the strictures of the Butlerian Jihad-A computer computes, just that. It does not think, at least not basic computer systems. One could launch, guide, navigate and do planetary overwatch with a satellite network, without employing “Thinking Machines” (AI). Basic computers would suffice. And basic computers are not in the likeness of the human mind.
@@frederipochard8892This is stated explicitly in the book. The Fremen smuggle vast amounts of Spice offworld to The Guild, as bribes to keep satellites out of the sky. And the Guild is too powerful for anyone to demand to know why satellites aren’t permitted.
@@frederipochard8892 I absolutely agree, the guild clearly was happy to oblige. It's been probably 10 years since I've read the book but I seem to remember it specifically mentioning the fremen bribing them. My memory is pretty garbage so take that with a grain of salt ;)
Oh. Interesting. Usually 40K steals from Dune. Now Dune steals from 40K. The 40K Universe tends to use a types of Networked Servitors, who are Slaved and Lobotomized, to perform Specific Tasks. The advanced Warriors of the Adeptus Mechanicus are Skitarii, and heavily Augmented. They also use a particular type of Mutant called Psykers, and force them to undergo Exposure to the Light of the Emperor. It burns out thier Eyes, but makes them capable of connecting to others. They are called Astropaths. Astropaths can send Messages with their thoughts, Faster Than Light. They can send across the Galaxy or close by. But they can also set up a form of Communion with each other called a Choir to amplify the Signal. This is a bit like a mix of Servitor and Specialized Telepathic Choir for Comms.
The Harkonnen operators are as much a departure from the proscripts of the Bulterlian Jihad as Villeneuve's Dune is a departure from the source material.
No satellites orbited Arrakis, none. That was made clear, both in the books and in the movies. And Dune, the book, was clear as to why-The Fremen bribed the Spacing Guild to not allow satellites over Arrakis. There wouldn’t have been satellites over any hemisphere.
There are satellites in the book, you just have to pay a lot to control them. When the Baron makes the "no satellites" comment in part 1 it's possible he meant that there were no satellites at that time. Given the way in which satellites are spoken about in the book, it's pretty clear that Herbert thought they worked more like spy planes. Either way it's made clear in the books that only the rich houses can pay for satellite control and the Harkonnens are a rich house. “Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.” “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.” "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
Also respectfully @richlisola1 I'm theorizing about something that is not in the books (these operators) and the film's elements in general. After researching this, I think it's a possibility that the Harkonnens could very well have paid the Guild for satellite control over areas where they were operating (the spice fields) which are all in the north. I find that the book isn't dogmatic that there are NEVER any satellites, but rather it establishes that they are, it's just expensive to control them. If I bribe them with more spice than the fremen, then they'll take my bribe. Given that the spice hoard attack never happened in the films it's possible that the Harkonnens still can use this to bribe the Guild.
@@NerdCookies Keep in mind: A-Satellite surveillance was forbiddingly costly, B-The Harkonnens had spent over sixty percent of ninety years worth of Spice earnings to enact their sneak attack (Sardaukar and Guild transport aren’t cheap), the Harkonnens were hardly in a position to splurge. Spice production was also severely hampered at the time of Dune part 2, C-The cost of satellite surveillance was a fiction maintained by The Guild, in reality the Guild values Spice over all else, and the Fremen smuggled vast quantities to the Spacing Guild. The Guild would not take money over that, and the Harkonnens were failing to mine enough Spice at that time. No organization requires Spice more than the Spacing Guild, hence why it clandestinely partnered with the Fremen in this. And we know the Fremen did this to keep satellites out of the sky. We also know that the Baron said explicitly that there are no satellites over Arrakis. Add to that their benightedness about the South, and we can surmise that the only surveillance of the planet is limited to Spice Field regions-Likely surveilled by a combination of ‘thopter sorties and drone aircraft purposed for spying.
Actually, the book reveals that there ARE satellites but the Guild charges a lot to control them. The Fremen pay to keep them out of the deep desert. A few quotes from the book to back this up: “Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.” “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.” "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
You've probably put a lot more thought into this and how it gels with the books than DV did. We know from Dune Messiah that things like Tleilaxu eyes and Ixian shrouds are considered suspicious by most and outright abominations by others, and the problem is both philosophical and practical (using machines to replace/enhance organs of perception raises the question of how can you properly perceive the world without being corrupted by technological filth - are you even human anymore without human senses?) Other mechanical implants appear in later books, and the narration indicates the tenets of the Jihad still prejudice people, even though it's been like 13,000 years at that point. The Baron's conversation with Piter in the first book shows the Harkonnens are not above such prejudices and have the same disdain for AI as everyone else. Personally, I doubt Villeneuve put much thought into it. He wanted scifi stuff, and the Harkonnens are scifi bad guys, so of course they have black outfits, chalk white skin, bald heads, cannibal concubines (or whatever), human spiders, cyborgs, etc. He needed Rabban to have a temper tantrum to show he's bad, and kicking in a tv screen wouldn't do it, so why not kill a borg drone? Villeneuve's entire concept for the Harkonnens is the laziest, most 2-dimensional thing he could have done. I'm half shocked we didn't get a scene of Rabban relaxing in a steam room and strangling puppies, just to hammer it home that "grr, Harkonnens bad."
The book establishes that there are some satellites but the Guild charges a fortune to control them. The Fremen pay to keep them out of the deep desert. The movie didn't explain but from my estimation it stands to reason that these operators would be tied into satellite data and that the Harkonnens would have the money to pay for that.
The Guild does not allow satellites over Arrakis, this is stated in the books and movies-Sky high pricing is the excuse, but the truth is the Fremen bribe The Guild with something worth more to it than money-Spice. The Guild revolves around Spice, Guild Steersmen need constant breathable Spice gas, not just for prescience, but to live. My guess would be that the Harkonen operators have carried out limited mapping, of specific Spice rich lands targeted by the Fedaykin, with drones. Drones and high and low flying ‘Thopter reconnaissance sorties. I doubt they have a full and ever present overwatch of the planet. And even if there were a price to be paid for satellite surveillance. I doubt when the Harkonens have just paid over 60% of 90 years of Spice profits to The Emperor, to rent and transport his Sardaukar for their sneak attack. That the Harkonens could then afford to pay the near limitless cost to launch satellites over the Arrakis.
@richlisola1 this is just an assumption, a possibility based on the visuals presented in the film. Here's a few quotes from the book that show that there ARE satellites, but imply that they're managed and flown more like spy planes or drones. “Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.” “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.” "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
I don't think it is remarkable that the Harkonnens use operators like these and think they would be almost universal. The mentats are basically these. If you need big computing power, you can choose either biological or mechanical and mechanical is banned in the Imperium.
Looks like more Villaneuve-style visual blah, just more wowie-zowie, look at this stuff that replaces the character-driven scenes and plotlines that made the book interesting.
I just finished Part 2, and I didn't care for it. I didn't like the pacing, Alia was never born, too many changes. It's been a long time since I read the book, but i'm pretty sure Paul didn't go to war with the other Great Houses; he got them to comply by threatening the Spacing Guild and spice production.
How exactly do you have satellites, holographic displays, and brain interfaces without having the AIs that make them work here in the real world? I understand what Frank Herbert was trying to do, but he was too technologically illiterate to understand how ridiculous what he was proposing was.
I thought the books did specified what a "thinking machine," was. It's something that replicates a human mind and can problem solve on a human level. The books do have automated devices like the poising snoopers and training dummies.
I got the impression that all high tech was ultimately of IXian make . Their work was sometimes tolerated, sometimes considered blasphemous, but somehow powerful Houses or the God Emperor always managed to get their hands on some.
You don’t need AI to control a satellite network, more basic computers will suffice. And computers weren’t totally banned. Just machines in the likeness of the human mind. It isn’t Frank Herbert’s ignorance that is the problem. It’s readers who haven’t given a careful reading of his books. Them and casual movie watchers who think they are now Dune scholars.
I mean, you can't except him to mention it when it was mentioned, like once in the book It's like blaming the Lord of the rings movies for not explaining who morgoth is
The first book doesn't even really mention it. They talk about the butlerian jihad more in the later books. They mention it in the first book just set why they're not using computers and the function of mentats.
As a purist... There are no machine hybrids mentioned in Frank Herberts' original works. These "machine hybrids" are a manifestation of corporate Hollywood, and are destroying a literary masterpiece, standard behaviour for the breed. If only there was a Hollywood director or film producer who was respectful of Authors and their hard work. Edit: the Harkonnen penchant for cruelty was already embellished upon by Frank Herberts' descriptions of their predilections for various forms of control and their enjoyment of torture.
There are some reasonable artistic additions in the movie, but imo they ruined the experience of an otherwise visually perfect story that closely follows the book. The woke recasting of Liet and addition of black people in the fremen was too much for me. I'm glad i didn't pay to see this. They just have to do this crap for woke points. No opportunity to shoe horn modern race nonsense in a movie can be passed up by clowns in Hollywood.
Race swapping and gender swapping Liet was awful, as was reducing his role to a token. But then again, that’s what they literally did with him (her) in the film. But as for the Fremen, it’s never explicitly stated what race or races they are. Personally, I always pictured them as a blend of White and Middle Eastern (Didn’t Czech actors portray them in the miniseries?)-That said, Denis Villneuve first read a copy of Dune, as a boy in Quebec, that had for cover art-A black, almost Sudanese looking Fremen with cobalt blue eyes, almost glowing. I’ve seen a picture of it. And that book was the basis for Denis’ imaginings of the Fremen. So yeah, many Fremen could be black. But not Liet Kynes. He was a Lawrence of Arabia type figure, half-Fremen, his father an off worlder. Described as tall with sandy hair. Liet was clearly White.
@@richlisola1 the fremen are space Arabs. Everything about their culture and environment makes it clear. Their religion even feels like Islam. Either way, we know their culture is homogeneous. Except for maybe a handful of exceptions they would all be alike in appearance.
@@douggardner8229 -Herbert set his tale 20,000 years in the future. Sure he was clear that there are notes of today’s culture in his world. But just notes. Nothing from now that can be explicitly mapped onto his story. Even the Fremen religion came from Zensunni wanderers, whose religion was a blend of islam and Buddhism. Herbert may have been inspired by islam and Buddhism, but the Freman are not Space Arabs. And that’s just culture-20,000 years in the future who knows what the Fremen look like racially? I do know the book cover that inspired Villeneuve had a black Fremen-Not how I picture the Fremen. But I’m not Villneuve.
The Fremen are not Space Arabs. Herbert made it clear that although his tale set 20,000 years in the future contained notes of today’s world-Nothing that could be directly mapped onto his tale. The forebearers of the Fremen were Zensunni Wanderers, their religion a blend of Buddhism and islam. Not islam as we know it. And that’s just culture. Racially, who knows what folks will look like in TWENTY THOUSAND years. Personally, I don’t imagine the Fremen as black. But, I do know the cover art that inspired Villeneuve, and it depicted a black Freman.
@@richlisola1 the blend of Buddhism and Islam might be the reason it feels like Islam. I can't think of another culture that uses the word "Jihad". They also consistently talk about the religious war that will sweep the universe etc. The coffee service, the rules for marrying and women, upscaled water discipline similar to Beduin culture. Come on. It's all there. Again, regardless they would all be alike minus Liet and survivors from house Atredies. There would not be half black, half middle eastern descent.
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My first thoughts of the monitoring room: very aesthetically pleasing, minimalistic and almost like if people were in prayer, in a spiritual trance. My thoughts of the ornithopter front gunner were that he had some kind of "augmented perception", then I thought "oh it's just like zoomed detection whatever", like a chunky, almost sphinx like head piece... Ngl the more this movie marinates with me the more I like it 😂it has so much soul, like its own identity. Thank you for the video.
That's exactly why I watched Part 1 hundreds of times. You pick up something different from it on every watch
What are you talking about
In Dune messiah there is a scene where they talk about eye prosthetics made by the tleilaxu for people who have lost their vision, I think is very interesting because it's a clear reference in how advanced the technology and medicine are in Dune yet so much is operated manually
I believe the operator in the aircraft was just wearing a helmet that was connected to onbord sensors/ turrets like the helmet of a AH-64 Apache Gunner/ pilot. The sensors he was monitoring seemed to be only tracking "life" as he makes the call, "life, Delta Delta" while looking down and to the right.
I read a comment a while back the said the scanner operator was using thermals to track the Fremmen, which sort of makes sense in a colder, nighttime environment like the start of that sequence. It might also explain how the operator lost the lock on them when Arrakis’s hot sun came out, which could have messed with calibration. I don’t know though lol, just an idea!
I thought it was kind of weird how the hologram of Arrakis they were looking at what kind of blink like it wasnt working right. I guess it's bc Raban keeps slamming people's heads into the console 😂
I'm a Anime fan. There's one called Orguss 02. The tech level is the same of DUNE. During the first episode the main characters are in a flying transport. On the flight deck,there is a table with markings that look like a radar screen. Hovering over the table is a small ball. There is a bald man near the table with his arms hovering over the table. He was the radar system.
Heh, I just finished retranslating that for fun (the commercial release ranges from wrong to entirely made up). I always loved the use of Seekers (psychics) in lieu of radar. And Lt. Manning is the most gleefully dickish character ever.
The world's tech level is post-World War I, though. Minus the high-tech stuff they've been excavating.
@@CantankerousDave Yeah, Manning really is😂. I agree with the tech level is WW1,but the Seeker is more closer to DUNE for me 😊
@@timothymorgan1175Using them as power sources got to be a bit much at the end, admittedly.
The problem I had with those hybrids is that in Dune canon it will be at least another 5000 years before we see the first one in Chapterhouse: Dune , Clairby. It doesn't mean it wasn't done before but House Harkonnen would never have risked the ire of the Landsraad. It looked cool but it made no sense. Also humanity was now more efficient than machines. And the Guild did not allow any satellites in the Northern Hemisphere...
On the Guild satellite comment, IIRC the Guild did have satellites but they charged a fortune to control them. In the film, I'm guessing (if it was ever even thought about BTS) that the Harkonnens have access to satellite data w/ these operators. They're one of the only "big rich" houses that can afford it. Its just a guess that they were paying the Guild for satellite access or control. In this case, based on the assumption that the south was uninhabitable, I'm guessing they didn't push the issue for southern satellites or in the deep desert, which the Fremen would have bribed the Guild to keep satellite free.
A few quotes from the book that helped me arrive at this conclusion:
“Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.”
“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
"We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
They were so cool though
The fremen are paying the guild so the guild pretends that it is impossible to deploy satellites.
@@NerdCookiesI wonder how a satellite would even work without a computer in it.
@@NerdCookiesThe Guild did not allow satellites over Arrakis-Whether it was explicit or implicit. The Guild used price as an excuse, but the reality was no cost would be enough. The Guild was bribed in Spice not to allow satellites, by Arrakis’ true masters-The Fremen.
In Dune Part 1-The Baron said that “there are no satellites over Arrakis, the Atreides will die in the dark.”
It is by will alone I set my Abacus in motion . . .
🧮😆
Thank you for covering this. I was fascinated with the all too brief scene with the hivemind operators since it revealed a bit more of the Harkonnen aesthetic and contrasting methodology. I hope in vain for a show delving more into the world of the Harkonnen.
Initially, I had the impression that the operators were basically wearing an advanced version of a VR headset. Though, upon closer inspection, it does look like the hardware might be more integrated/invasive than that.
We do know that Piter had a connection to the Tleilaxu, and the (admittedly non-canonical) Dune Encyclopedia even posits the unanswered question that he may have been one of their Ghola agents, quietly overseeing Tleilaxu affairs during the events of the first book.
The Tleilaxu are known for their metal eyes and other nigh-taboo bio-mechanical enhancements.
It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that they augmented the brains of a cadre of Harkonnen Mentats to maximize the surveillance of Spice Production on a planetary scale.
Just a theory.
I remember an excerpt somewhere in (Dune messiah? Or maybe children of Dune) that reflects on twisted mentants and says that the houses/figures who acquire them from the Tleilaxu don’t seem to understand that the mentants often have their own goals and ambitions in mind that don’t necessarily align with theirs.
@@Allen667sjjaI think this was in children. I may be wrong though 😂
I know the sentiments around the BH novels and their legitimacy as canon, but I actually liked Paul Of Dune and think it was in that one where they go into detail about the Piter gholas.
"Whatever the need, we have the breed."
Reminds me of the operators in General Kala's control room from Flash Gordon.
They remind me of the comtech guys used by skeletor in the 1987 masters of the Universe Movie
Thats because when Moebius did the original storyboards for Jodorowsky's Dune this was a specific scene from that version. When DeLaurentis acquired the rights to film Dune he got a copy of the storyboards, script and concept art that was doing the rounds of Hollywood, and "stole" many of the ideas for Flash Gordon, including the control room scene.
I am reminded of the Borg from Star Trek, only this makes more sense. The Harkonens skirt both Imperial decree and religious law, without strictly violating either.
IX was probably all to happy to sell their new toys.
exept when it came to customs and religion they were stated to have been incredibly conservative. so they likely would have had an extreme disgust for ix.
Im so glad someone made a video about this. I was so curious about this scene
Nice interpretation, and deepens the lore/headcanon behind these operator guys.
However I'm sure this is reading into Villeneuve's intentions a bit much. Based on the way talked about his take on the Harkonnens in general, I think he only cared about showing them as more technologically advanced than the Fremen (likely the Atreides too), and when it came to the operators he had a specific homage/reference to a french bande dessinee art who's name escapes me
Limited cybernetics (machine eyes), automated systems (poison snoopers) data storage devices (Paul's holobooks) are all seen in the first two books.
It's not a stretch to have this kind of tech in the movie.
I loved the depiction of the harkonen military here, in the books they’re never really elaborated on to any great degree but they’re kinda just depicted as thugs only following their authoritarian leader out of fear mainly
IX specializes in technology and has been suspected of pushing the limits of what they are allowed to build. Ships that don't need spice are possible, hunter seekers, etc.
Golden content as usual! As a Dunist, I am always so happy and excited when you post! 😊
Thank you so much! I'm so happy to hear that you're enjoying the content!
I run a Track channel and don't know how this came into my timeline but I'm loving all your Dune videos
These guys in particular always sort of weirdly reminded me a bit of the old Dune RTS's that Westwood made, they have the same sort of vibe.
that westwood vibe is great..
Thank you, Nerd Cookies.
Rumor has it, if you play the chanting backwards you’ll hear a hidden message of Villeneuve apologizing.
This was my favorite scene from the movie, second of all reading comments it boils my blood at "HUR dur this isn't faithful to the books"... bro it's a fkin 1960s book, Herbert himself woulda been loving this if he saw it, in fact when Leto was talking about sandworm
Approaching, there was a line in a book saying "& Leto slams the microphone when shouting at the men" slamming a microphone, ITS FKIN 1960s!!!!
That's really observant. I didn't even catch that in the movie. But a good observation on the deeper lore in the Dune universe.
this is so well written i love every bit of it!
Thank you!
There's a more direct influence than Drulliet. And that's Jean Giraud (Moebius) and specifically his storyboards for Jodorowsky's Dune adaption. There is even a sequence illustrated where one of the guys has his goggles pulled off revealing that they are actually wired into his eye sockets, which was copied by Dino DeLaurentis for Flash Gordon.
It’s an interesting adaptation, IX definitely come to mind. Nice reference to the Golden Path my friend…
The "bribes to keep satellites from overflying the southern hemisphere" thing never made sense. You can't have satellites *not* overfly just one hemisphere. In context, you can tell that Herbert thought they worked like spy planes, rather than devices out in space traveling in an ellipse around the planet.
An equatorial, low orbit wouldn't have view of the poles.
@@matthewconnor5483But ONLY, PRECISELY over the equator. At very low orbital altitude. Which is a very dumb contrivance. Something in geosynchronous orbit would have a pretty clear view. Ironically, those *do* have to be directly over the equator while LAO (low Arakeen orbit) satellites can go any which way.
@@CantankerousDave about the only orbit that would give you a total view of a planet is a sun synchronous orbit which is what many of the imaginary satellites use.
Satellites were banned over all of Arrakis. This Southern Hemisphere myth you’re dealing with, I don’t know where you got it from.
There are no satellites whatsoever, over Arrakis.
Not one.
There's anti-gravity technology in Dune. Satellites don't have to rotate around a planet to stay in orbit, they can simply hover over the same spot continuously.
I think that the operators are Ixian in origin and not lower level Mentats. I could be wrong, but I can explain my line of thinking.
In the Dune Encyclopedia (which is admittedly self contradictory on many things) they discuss Mentats and how they tend to train in combat skills in order to protect themselves from assassination by various ideological groups who think that Mentats are a violation of the prohibition on thinking machines. It goes into some detail of lower level Mentats and how they function, from top level Simulationist Mentats like Thufir Hawat to Mentats whose only ability is vast amounts of memorization. The alternative to naturally trained Mentats is twisted Mentats, which are a Tleilaxu product. This suggests that there is a wide range of interpretation of the Orange Catholic Bible and how it applies in practice.
At the same time there are various schools with superhuman abilities similar to the Mentats and the Bene Gesserit detailed. The Suk school of medicine, according to the Dune Encyclopedia, trained its adherents to be able to sniff unknown plants and determine what their medicinal use might be, if any. Effectively Suk doctors are human bloodhounds in addition to their conditioning to do no harm. So there are multiple schools that push the boundaries of natural human ability in the way that the Mentats and Bene Gesserit did.
Ixians are the center of technological development in the Imperium. So it seems logical that they would have a school dedicated to training candidates to use their brains as a substitute for thinking machines while interfacing with Ixian technology. It also makes sense that they would be considered to be potentially violating the taboo on thinking machines by a broader swath of people than the Mentats are given the visible interface with machines compared to the Mentats only doing their simulations and calculations in their own minds.
That's why I think that they're Ixian in origin, but frankly your guess is as good as mine and I'm just glad that I"m not the only person who tilted their head and went "huh" when I saw them onscreen.
if I remember correctly the House of IX was one of House Artraides staunchest supporters after they were aided against an attack from another Great House
kinda reminds me of the guild handlers from lynch dune.
the head gear resembling a vr headset is probably just a telepresence display. probably tied directly into the thopter's sensor pod. that need not be a computing device per se, but a dumb display. the neural interface on the other hand would definitely be a violation of the strictures of the jihad, though it might be a legal loophole the harkonnens explot. both are simple cases of wanting to add tech fluff to make the setting seem more futuristic for general audiences, but the movies also give cues of repressed technology (eg the mechanical gauges in the thopters or irulan's recording device). i think its a good contrast.
one thing lynch dune does that i found really clever was when paul is training on the fighting mek, they make sure to clear and lock the room before hand, because they know what they do could be seen as wrong by the others not in the inner circle. the bene gesserit are also known to secretly use actual computers for their genetic programs. because that kind of work would be impossible otherwise. it is not indicated by the books but the tleilaxu may also be doing the same, as they are also big on genetic manipulation.
Pretty cool tbh, DUNE IS MY FAV SERIES TBH
I've only seen the movies once and am anticipating the delivery of my copy to rewatch for such details. That being said, as you point out this tech is probably coming from the Ixians or Tleilax. Both of these skirt the OCB, but they have been doing it for a long time with the tacit approval of the Emperor and the great houses (I assume). We perceive that the Atreides are honorable and do not use technology from these two sources, but what about the other houses? (As far as I can remember) We do not see the other houses at all, so we don't see where they fall in a spectrum for the Atreides to the Harkonnens. I think most houses use the tech in one form or another with a nod and a wink at its supposed illegality and/or immorality.
I saw elements like this a way to show Tleilaxu elements without adding another main player of the Imperium
Gotta admit I laughed out loud in the cinema when I saw these silly Harkonnen Borg and the realisation set in that this is what Villeneuve was trying to do with the Mentat concept in this context. Interestingly (and in my view, encouragingly), I wasn't the only one in the theatre that day who let out a bemused groan.
I was just like WTF
Using a mind a CPU for an instant global alert system is a perfectly viable application of mentats. What else are they going to do? Push buttons at lighting speed? Write down information really fast and give it to a page to update a map? That is very inefficeint and improbable.
Could you make a video about the Harkonnen military or a video about the Attraides military.
I was surprised by how many references to later books were in this movie. *"Cyborg him!"*
Mentioning reverend mothers from multiple cultures was another reference.
So was the scene in the garden when Lady Fenring was talking Gaius Helen Mohiam. The premiss and structure of that scene is straight out of "Heretics of Dune" but with different character.
Also, I do think that the cybernetics are a way to prime the audience for what will happen in the second book with a "certain returning character's" eyes.
I see the operators as a necessity : they help to gather all the inputs from satellites, drones, etc in a single synthetic visualization. The machine part on them would allow them to update the visualization, the chanting is a way to stay in synchronized trance. Chanting is a simple way to have several people sharing a common pace.
The movie and the book state clearly, that there are NO SATELLITES over Arrakis. The author of this video is gravely mistaken.
@@richlisola1 No it was pointed out by the author that only the skies above the southern planet had no satellites. There was satellites on Arrakis.
@@gwell2118 -I don’t think you are right.
@@richlisola1 They showed exarchs right from the book. Check them out they are in the comments.
@@gwell2118 I googled the book and am currently re-reading it. I see no mention of the Southern Hemisphere. Just that the Fremen bribe The Guild to keep the skies clear of satellites. And that Duke Leto was trying to negotiate with the Guild to allow House Atreides to orbit a frigate for use as a satellite.
Thufir told the Duke that The Guild Mentant representative indicated to him that, no price would suffice to orbit a satellite.
When I saw the movie I thought the Harkonnen Operators were an inferior replacement for Piter de Vries, who was now dead. Whatever their purpose, I thought they were very interesting and I loved their synchronous chanting. The Harkonnen language was awesome all round tbh.
Dune Prophecy trailer released today. Hope you'll make a video on it.🙌
Harkonnens were slowly but surely turning into the first Borgs!
These things have absolutely no basis in the books.
They’re mentats, so it’s perfectly legal, thank you very much.
Ahhhhhhhh warm , fresh and delicious Nerd Cookies 🍪🍪🎉🎉😊😊!!!!!!!!
Well the thing with the films is they had to fill in some gaps in the world building. The books as detailed as they were didn't really go into a lot of detail into the non-house related aspects of the imperium's operations. Such as how the military functions, how automatic systems (like the holo-display) would function etc. So the film had to fill these in as it is a visual medium. What they did was create concepts on how these would function using techniques and technologies present in the books. Cybernetic integration was well established in the books so it stands to reason interfaces could be installed in operators to work advanced equipment. In this regard the individuals seem to be connected directly to the display and using their minds like the CPU.
Revisionist tripe.
@@seanhewitt603 awesome innovation. I fixed it for you.
These guys reminded me of servitors for warhammer 40k
Harkonnen :"We are brutal, and the Machine is no match for us !"
The Harkonnen use of these human computers is bad but, the Bene Tleilax Axlotl tanks are just the worst.
However, I'm surprised that no one considered using Vietnam level technology to do an Operation Center. No computers, just maps, protrators, radios, lots of pencils and paper. Heck, even a typewriter to do formal memorandums.
I’ll bet the Harkonnens employ low and high flying drones to map limited sections of Arrakis-Since satellites are banned in total, notwithstanding the mistaken claim by this video’s author, that there are satellites over the Northern Hemisphere.
That would be very impractical for a planatery scale survielance. Especially as it was shown the map can update in real time. The VIETNAM style was highly inaccurate and inefficient at times. The film obviously made some decisions to strike a middle ground between the rules of the universe and audience believability.
Basic computers are allowed under the Butlerian Jihad ban on Thinking Machines-And those computers’ capabilities could easily be augmented with Mentat Operators.
@@gwell2118 The surveillance isn’t planetary-We know this because The Imperium is utterly unaware of the Fremen population in the Southern Hemisphere.
And since satellites are banned from Arrakis, we can only surmise that limited sectors of the planet are mapped-Most likely the Spice Fields, population centers in the North, and any lands that had been the site of Fremen hit and run attacks.
I’d guess surveilled by a combination of spotter drones, like the ones that watch for Sandworms in the movies, and light ‘thopter aerial surveillance.
I thought there were no satellites over Arrakis?
There are, they're just expensive to control. The fremen pay to keep their skies free if satellites and it stands to reason that the Harkonnens could also pay for satellite control as well as they're a wealthy house.
@@NerdCookies cool, ok. I’ve watched the movie 30 plus times…I think there’s something wrong with me! 🙄😂
Thanks Elaine, nice thumbnail
Thanks Shane :)
They reminded me of the imperial agents in the Flash Gordon movie. I think the pilot is just wearing a HUD. I don't think the Harkhonnen would be allowed to mechanically network mentats. Once again I think these are devices for relaying information mini speakers small projection devices where the wearer makes the computations.
Good video
Thanks
I'd love to see a video about the Butlerian Jihad itself and how AI fought humanity.
As seen in this video humanity has that flaw of repeating its mistakes over generations,
so for it to uphold its distaste of AI for thousands of years, something horrific must have occurred.
The problem for me are satellites on Arrakis. The Spacing Guild doesn't allow it. So how does the holo map console work?
The Spacing Guild does use and allow satellites but they charge a high price for satellite control.
“Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.”
"We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep our skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
“We know the Guild wants a prohibitive price for weather satellites. We know that-” “What’ve weather satellites to do with it?” she asked. “They couldn’t possibly....” She broke off. Paul sensed the hyperalertness of his mind reading her reactions, computing on minutiae. “You see it now,” he said. “Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
Duhhhhh..
Easy. ‘thopter aerial surveillance and spotter drone aircraft. One could map the active spice fields with them. The map probably isn’t the entire planet. Just the parts at risk of attack. Where the Spice Harvesters are.
They made me think of Clive Barkers' Cenobytes.
Seeing a Druillet picture in this video makes me happy.
@NerdCookies You mentioned satellites over the northern hemisphere. I was left with the impression from the books that the Fremen had a deal with the Guild not to allow satellites over Arrakis in exchange of spice. Or is it only for the South?
This remark is an assumption based on what we saw in the movie with telemetry data strictly over the North. The book establishes that there are satellites but it costs a fortune to control them. The fremen pay to keep their skies (the deep desert) free of satellites.
My guess is the filmmakers have decided to combine the Harkonnens (spelling?) and the Bene Tleilax. Just a guess.
Nah dude isn't lazy like that
Right on the edge is close to crossing to the machine
This function could have been covered by Hawat alone! Having a mentat in this role would had made way more sense.
Mom, can we get a Borg?
No, we've got Borg at home.
The Borg at home...
In the Dune of David Lynch there was an episode with Thufir Hawat who is looking into some golden device with glimmering light. It looks like some kind of interface to provide the data to the brain of a mentat. And these Harkonnen operators look even like a reference to Lynch's Havat and his device. Maybe it is low level mentats who control the logistics and troops maneuvering.
And a small remark about the beginning of the video. There can't be any satellite above Arrakis's surface. It was so in the book and it was confirmed by the Baron himself in the first part ("Atrides will die in the dark"). The Guild does not allow surveillance of the planet
Episode? Movies don’t have episodes.
@@richlisola1 Ok, in the film one
The real question is, can the group of Harkonnen Operators run DOOM?
They remind me of the 1987 masters of the Universe Movie comtech technicians used by skeletor
Can they run Crisis?
These operators do not fit the brutal conditions of Harkonnen society. Thanks Elaine.
Why did the Bene Gesseritt allow the Harkonnens to violate the jihad?
Plans, within plans.
Enforcing the conventions of the jihad would be the Emperor's job. The Bene Gesseritt were running their own computers for their genetics project.
@@douglasscott464 hypocrisy would be no impediment for the Bene Gesseritt
The audio in this keeps triggering Siri.
As a wise ghoast face once said "Flesh is weeeeeeeak"
Like Edric O from Dune 2000.
Those are two things that Villeneuve added in his adaptation that are kind of betrayals of the original work by Frank Herbert.
1) Following to the Butlerian Jihad and the legal and religious banning of any kind of technology replicating the human mind in any way or shape (not just full IA), enhancing technology like the one proposed here would be considered so forbidden that any house, even the Harkonnens, would not take this kind of risks. These guys would be low to mid-level Mentats instead. Not all Mentats are as highly trained and efficient as both the Atreides Mentat, Thufir Hawat, and the HArkonne Mentat, Piter de Vries, are. These two are among the very best of the best in the Dune universe. But unfortunately, Villeneuve took the decision not to develop the lore about Mentats that are a deeply ingrained feature of the original Dune universe. Let it be clear: the Dune universe doesn't do IA, doesn't do independantly operating robots, doesn't even do very advanced computers and doesn't do cybernetics especially when it's directly connecting to the human mind; the Dune universe do various and very advanced forms of human development through differents schools (Mentats, Guild Navigators, Suk doctors, Bene Gesserit, etc...). Bottom line: you just don't emulate or enhance the human mind with technology, that's a huge no-no and it is not just "playing on the fringe of the law"; you train humans to their full potential and more and in the process you both respect humanity as it should be and hopefully push humans to always get better as a whole without relying on machines which was the downfall of the old empire.
2) Repeat after me: there are no satellite orbiting Arrakis. Absolutely none. Zero. The Spacing Guild, which is basically controlling everything that has to do with space, not just space travel and highliners, is putting a price tag so absurdly high on any single satellite there that no house, including the imperial one, has ever paid for it.
"...is putting a price tag so absurdly high on any single satellite"
I'm pretty sure it's because the Fremen are bribing the guild to not put up satellites.
@@thorntonmellon May I propose an alternative answer? The Guild is interested on not having the House governing Arrakis to have global oversight on the planet. Why? Because the Guild is interested in having Spice illegal harvesters/smugglers being able to operate on the planet. They provide a secondary if illegal source of Melange the Guild might be relying on to build stockpiles (which is something forbidden but hey everybody do it so...)
Basic computer systems and programming languages would not breach the strictures of the Butlerian Jihad-A computer computes, just that. It does not think, at least not basic computer systems. One could launch, guide, navigate and do planetary overwatch with a satellite network, without employing “Thinking Machines” (AI). Basic computers would suffice. And basic computers are not in the likeness of the human mind.
@@frederipochard8892This is stated explicitly in the book. The Fremen smuggle vast amounts of Spice offworld to The Guild, as bribes to keep satellites out of the sky.
And the Guild is too powerful for anyone to demand to know why satellites aren’t permitted.
@@frederipochard8892 I absolutely agree, the guild clearly was happy to oblige.
It's been probably 10 years since I've read the book but I seem to remember it specifically mentioning the fremen bribing them.
My memory is pretty garbage so take that with a grain of salt ;)
I know I left a reply but did you see the HBO Max Dune Prophecy Trailer it dropped 10 hrs ago did know any why to send messages
Oh. Interesting. Usually 40K steals from Dune. Now Dune steals from 40K.
The 40K Universe tends to use a types of Networked Servitors, who are Slaved and Lobotomized, to perform Specific Tasks. The advanced Warriors of the Adeptus Mechanicus are Skitarii, and heavily Augmented.
They also use a particular type of Mutant called Psykers, and force them to undergo Exposure to the Light of the Emperor. It burns out thier Eyes, but makes them capable of connecting to others. They are called Astropaths. Astropaths can send Messages with their thoughts, Faster Than Light. They can send across the Galaxy or close by. But they can also set up a form of Communion with each other called a Choir to amplify the Signal.
This is a bit like a mix of Servitor and Specialized Telepathic Choir for Comms.
The Harkonnen operators are as much a departure from the proscripts of the Bulterlian Jihad as Villeneuve's Dune is a departure from the source material.
They were likely just low level Mentat operators.
Your channel is awesome
Thanks!
If it's not in the book, is it really lore?
I get what you're saying. From my perspective, this is an examination of how this original element fits into the lore of the books.
No satellites orbited Arrakis, none.
That was made clear, both in the books and in the movies.
And Dune, the book, was clear as to why-The Fremen bribed the Spacing Guild to not allow satellites over Arrakis.
There wouldn’t have been satellites over any hemisphere.
There are satellites in the book, you just have to pay a lot to control them. When the Baron makes the "no satellites" comment in part 1 it's possible he meant that there were no satellites at that time. Given the way in which satellites are spoken about in the book, it's pretty clear that Herbert thought they worked more like spy planes. Either way it's made clear in the books that only the rich houses can pay for satellite control and the Harkonnens are a rich house.
“Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.”
“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
"We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
@@NerdCookies -Respectfully, that isn’t the obvious interpretation of that text.
Also respectfully @richlisola1 I'm theorizing about something that is not in the books (these operators) and the film's elements in general. After researching this, I think it's a possibility that the Harkonnens could very well have paid the Guild for satellite control over areas where they were operating (the spice fields) which are all in the north. I find that the book isn't dogmatic that there are NEVER any satellites, but rather it establishes that they are, it's just expensive to control them. If I bribe them with more spice than the fremen, then they'll take my bribe. Given that the spice hoard attack never happened in the films it's possible that the Harkonnens still can use this to bribe the Guild.
@@NerdCookies Keep in mind: A-Satellite surveillance was forbiddingly costly, B-The Harkonnens had spent over sixty percent of ninety years worth of Spice earnings to enact their sneak attack (Sardaukar and Guild transport aren’t cheap), the Harkonnens were hardly in a position to splurge. Spice production was also severely hampered at the time of Dune part 2, C-The cost of satellite surveillance was a fiction maintained by The Guild, in reality the Guild values Spice over all else, and the Fremen smuggled vast quantities to the Spacing Guild. The Guild would not take money over that, and the Harkonnens were failing to mine enough Spice at that time.
No organization requires Spice more than the Spacing Guild, hence why it clandestinely partnered with the Fremen in this. And we know the Fremen did this to keep satellites out of the sky.
We also know that the Baron said explicitly that there are no satellites over Arrakis. Add to that their benightedness about the South, and we can surmise that the only surveillance of the planet is limited to Spice Field regions-Likely surveilled by a combination of ‘thopter sorties and drone aircraft purposed for spying.
The Harkonnen operators sounded like the Nazis when they were chanting and in a trance during the surveillance of Arrakis.
That’s not like any Nazi I ever heard.
No I just see it as an enhancement like a built in calculator or Teslas head chip thing.
Thy reminded me of the Borg
**glares Bene Gesseritly**
in the books the spacing guild didnt allow satellites
Actually, the book reveals that there ARE satellites but the Guild charges a lot to control them. The Fremen pay to keep them out of the deep desert. A few quotes from the book to back this up:
“Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.”
“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
"We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
Could you make a video about the harkonnen military or a video about the Attraides military it would be a very interesting video.
You've probably put a lot more thought into this and how it gels with the books than DV did.
We know from Dune Messiah that things like Tleilaxu eyes and Ixian shrouds are considered suspicious by most and outright abominations by others, and the problem is both philosophical and practical (using machines to replace/enhance organs of perception raises the question of how can you properly perceive the world without being corrupted by technological filth - are you even human anymore without human senses?) Other mechanical implants appear in later books, and the narration indicates the tenets of the Jihad still prejudice people, even though it's been like 13,000 years at that point. The Baron's conversation with Piter in the first book shows the Harkonnens are not above such prejudices and have the same disdain for AI as everyone else.
Personally, I doubt Villeneuve put much thought into it. He wanted scifi stuff, and the Harkonnens are scifi bad guys, so of course they have black outfits, chalk white skin, bald heads, cannibal concubines (or whatever), human spiders, cyborgs, etc. He needed Rabban to have a temper tantrum to show he's bad, and kicking in a tv screen wouldn't do it, so why not kill a borg drone? Villeneuve's entire concept for the Harkonnens is the laziest, most 2-dimensional thing he could have done. I'm half shocked we didn't get a scene of Rabban relaxing in a steam room and strangling puppies, just to hammer it home that "grr, Harkonnens bad."
but i thought there were no satellites over arrakis
The book establishes that there are some satellites but the Guild charges a fortune to control them. The Fremen pay to keep them out of the deep desert. The movie didn't explain but from my estimation it stands to reason that these operators would be tied into satellite data and that the Harkonnens would have the money to pay for that.
The Guild does not allow satellites over Arrakis, this is stated in the books and movies-Sky high pricing is the excuse, but the truth is the Fremen bribe The Guild with something worth more to it than money-Spice. The Guild revolves around Spice, Guild Steersmen need constant breathable Spice gas, not just for prescience, but to live.
My guess would be that the Harkonen operators have carried out limited mapping, of specific Spice rich lands targeted by the Fedaykin, with drones. Drones and high and low flying ‘Thopter reconnaissance sorties.
I doubt they have a full and ever present overwatch of the planet.
And even if there were a price to be paid for satellite surveillance. I doubt when the Harkonens have just paid over 60% of 90 years of Spice profits to The Emperor, to rent and transport his Sardaukar for their sneak attack. That the Harkonens could then afford to pay the near limitless cost to launch satellites over the Arrakis.
@richlisola1 this is just an assumption, a possibility based on the visuals presented in the film. Here's a few quotes from the book that show that there ARE satellites, but imply that they're managed and flown more like spy planes or drones.
“Arrakis has special problems, costs are higher, and there’d be maintenance and the like. The Guild wants a dreadful high price for satellite control and your father’s House isn’t one of the big rich ones, lad. You know that.”
“Satellites watch the terrain below. There are things in the deep desert that will not bear frequent inspection.”
"We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep OUR skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis.”
Servitors.
I don't think it is remarkable that the Harkonnens use operators like these and think they would be almost universal. The mentats are basically these. If you need big computing power, you can choose either biological or mechanical and mechanical is banned in the Imperium.
Digital is banned not mechanical or analog
I had always assimed the chanting harkonnens were mentats
Second place!!!✌️
Spiderhuman pet - moral degradation. Becomin a human worm - absolution.
They are just mentaxs human computers that's all they are plain & simple if you've read the book you know
Looks like more Villaneuve-style visual blah, just more wowie-zowie, look at this stuff that replaces the character-driven scenes and plotlines that made the book interesting.
🖖🏽
TLDR ; machines are bad, Harkonnens are bad
I just finished Part 2, and I didn't care for it. I didn't like the pacing, Alia was never born, too many changes. It's been a long time since I read the book, but i'm pretty sure Paul didn't go to war with the other Great Houses; he got them to comply by threatening the Spacing Guild and spice production.
It would be nice if the older film was covered just as much as the ‘new’ one
How exactly do you have satellites, holographic displays, and brain interfaces without having the AIs that make them work here in the real world? I understand what Frank Herbert was trying to do, but he was too technologically illiterate to understand how ridiculous what he was proposing was.
I thought the books did specified what a "thinking machine," was. It's something that replicates a human mind and can problem solve on a human level. The books do have automated devices like the poising snoopers and training dummies.
I got the impression that all high tech was ultimately of IXian make . Their work was sometimes tolerated, sometimes considered blasphemous, but somehow powerful Houses or the God Emperor always managed to get their hands on some.
You don’t need AI to control a satellite network, more basic computers will suffice. And computers weren’t totally banned. Just machines in the likeness of the human mind.
It isn’t Frank Herbert’s ignorance that is the problem. It’s readers who haven’t given a careful reading of his books. Them and casual movie watchers who think they are now Dune scholars.
Was the Butlerian Jihad even in the movie? DV cut out so many essential elements.
It was BARELY even in the book, other than to set the context and explain why there weren't computers everywhere
I mean, you can't except him to mention it when it was mentioned, like once in the book
It's like blaming the Lord of the rings movies for not explaining who morgoth is
The first book doesn't even really mention it. They talk about the butlerian jihad more in the later books. They mention it in the first book just set why they're not using computers and the function of mentats.
DV cut out the Spacing Guild, which is much worse & will lead to story problems in the next movie
it’s mentioned in the books not fleshed out. not shown in the films.
The Harkonnens were the only thing that actually looked interesting, visually speaking, in Villeneuve's otherwise blant movies.
I’m first, what do I win?
A trip to North Korea, congrats!
@@OfficialArkoMotionswell that’s an unfortunate prize
A brain implant by Omnius
@@theAverageJoe25 Be thankful it isn't salusa secundus
Another one of Villlenueve's unfaithful "creative licences". He's worse than Brian. They could have just been lower ranking mentats.
As a purist... There are no machine hybrids mentioned in Frank Herberts' original works. These "machine hybrids" are a manifestation of corporate Hollywood, and are destroying a literary masterpiece, standard behaviour for the breed. If only there was a Hollywood director or film producer who was respectful of Authors and their hard work. Edit: the Harkonnen penchant for cruelty was already embellished upon by Frank Herberts' descriptions of their predilections for various forms of control and their enjoyment of torture.
Not canon
harKOnnen not HArkonnen
It's both 😉
There are some reasonable artistic additions in the movie, but imo they ruined the experience of an otherwise visually perfect story that closely follows the book. The woke recasting of Liet and addition of black people in the fremen was too much for me. I'm glad i didn't pay to see this. They just have to do this crap for woke points. No opportunity to shoe horn modern race nonsense in a movie can be passed up by clowns in Hollywood.
Race swapping and gender swapping Liet was awful, as was reducing his role to a token. But then again, that’s what they literally did with him (her) in the film.
But as for the Fremen, it’s never explicitly stated what race or races they are. Personally, I always pictured them as a blend of White and Middle Eastern (Didn’t Czech actors portray them in the miniseries?)-That said, Denis Villneuve first read a copy of Dune, as a boy in Quebec, that had for cover art-A black, almost Sudanese looking Fremen with cobalt blue eyes, almost glowing. I’ve seen a picture of it.
And that book was the basis for Denis’ imaginings of the Fremen. So yeah, many Fremen could be black.
But not Liet Kynes. He was a Lawrence of Arabia type figure, half-Fremen, his father an off worlder. Described as tall with sandy hair. Liet was clearly White.
@@richlisola1 the fremen are space Arabs. Everything about their culture and environment makes it clear. Their religion even feels like Islam. Either way, we know their culture is homogeneous. Except for maybe a handful of exceptions they would all be alike in appearance.
@@douggardner8229 -Herbert set his tale 20,000 years in the future. Sure he was clear that there are notes of today’s culture in his world. But just notes. Nothing from now that can be explicitly mapped onto his story.
Even the Fremen religion came from Zensunni wanderers, whose religion was a blend of islam and Buddhism.
Herbert may have been inspired by islam and Buddhism, but the Freman are not Space Arabs.
And that’s just culture-20,000 years in the future who knows what the Fremen look like racially?
I do know the book cover that inspired Villeneuve had a black Fremen-Not how I picture the Fremen. But I’m not Villneuve.
The Fremen are not Space Arabs. Herbert made it clear that although his tale set 20,000 years in the future contained notes of today’s world-Nothing that could be directly mapped onto his tale.
The forebearers of the Fremen were Zensunni Wanderers, their religion a blend of Buddhism and islam. Not islam as we know it. And that’s just culture.
Racially, who knows what folks will look like in TWENTY THOUSAND years.
Personally, I don’t imagine the Fremen as black. But, I do know the cover art that inspired Villeneuve, and it depicted a black Freman.
@@richlisola1 the blend of Buddhism and Islam might be the reason it feels like Islam. I can't think of another culture that uses the word "Jihad". They also consistently talk about the religious war that will sweep the universe etc. The coffee service, the rules for marrying and women, upscaled water discipline similar to Beduin culture. Come on. It's all there. Again, regardless they would all be alike minus Liet and survivors from house Atredies. There would not be half black, half middle eastern descent.
We are Borg. Resistance is futile.