I feel like an easier and more realistic way of doing all this would have been to modify prices by the cost of transportation from source to destination. If source and destination are close by, its cheap. If not, it’s more expensive but you can mitigate it by making transportation cheaper
Unfortunately that would increase the computation demand geometrically (I think). If n locations produce a good and we add a new location to consume that good we now have n additional computations to make to determine price. According to Gauss that's ½n(n+1) calculations... per good. This would give us a computational demand of O(n²) which is just too high for a game of this complexity.
@Sigma-xb6kn only if you didn't precompile distances and store them in a matrix ahead of time. Even something simple like calculate a distance matrix between all states upon initialization even if O(n^2) is fine for a startup calculation since the number of states is small in computational terms, sort that upon initialization, (O(nlog(n)), then just check the distances for the state from consumption in O(n) to find the closest state with the good and apply the transport penalty, that is assuming the same goods are otherwise sold at the same price within the market. Can then add optimizations to add/remove goods from individual market matrices periodically to further optimize and see if a more efficient good availability exists or create a reporting mechanism when production value changes for a good (probably would lead to inconsistent performance though depending on the rate of updates). Bit of memory usage and probably wouldn't help performance, but they already doubtless use similar methods already for mechanics or the game would chug horrendously.
Another great video. MAPI threw off my usual 'build stacks of buildings to max throughput' tactic and now we have new nuances. It feels more historically and economically realistic. Great seeing the spreadsheets and glad you do all that grunt work to distill it down for us!
I find the opposite is true, it made building a slog even more than it already was and local prices encourage concentration rather than developing every state because resources aren’t very well distributed
@@gaberobison680it's going to depend on your country and resources. Construction is going to naturally gravitate to provinces with all the basic resources for tooling/construction sectors. Bigger/resource rich countries have more viable areas for growth, which I think is a good representation of reality
@@thompkins6796It sounds good on paper but in reality it's just a flat -15% market access penalty to every state. You will have to eat the flat 15% money sink somewhere down the line and it made the game feel like an idle game if you're playing anything else but a GP. It could work, but right now it's just a money sink that penalizes you for building concentrated industries.
I bought the game three days ago and am playing it enthusiastically. I discovered your videos yesterday because I wanted to better understand the economic system behind the game ... now I'm hanging on to your wonderful hairless thinking head like a leech and feasting on your seemingly unlimited knowledge. Thank you for the past and future feasts.
Really appreciate the amount of work you put into these videos. I don't think I would enjoy Victoria 3 as much if at all, if i didn't have the know-how from your videos. Amazing job!
The entire point of markets was to prevent these stupid local price shenanigans. This game mechanic actively refutes the purpose of infrastructure and actively makes the best states better and the average state worse. What if I want sovereign agriculture? Not allowed because arable land is linked to starting population and not the actual potential productivity. Yet resources like iron are based on hypothetical abstract yields as determined by actual geological studies. And is treated as infinite and inexhaustible
Thanks for this! It was super helpful learning what industries were more affected by local prices. I had noticed that it was way harder to get an efficient really big steel factory than most of the other stuff I was making. Now I know why going wide on steel helped me so much!
Yeah I was initially bullish on wide steel. You still can do it, but I think you need a pretty specific condition to want to. Like Belgium wants too, and I think maybe Prussia?
Hey MahDryBread, very happy to see you here, I watched your channel for your The Guild II tutorials, do you plan on maybe showing the new megamod developed by Fajeth? Would be very epic!
We need more spreadsheets! Thanks for the thorough approach! We actually need a war system guide, something about optimal army sizes and compositions. I hope you are working on something like that!
I'm genuinely amazed I have been able to totally understand everything in this video, Victoria 3 is such an overwhelming game as someone with no experience but you've done an amazing job in condensing the information in a way I can process having only watched a couple of game play videos on your channel. The spreadsheet was particularly helpful and I'll be keeping it on my other mointor for future games!
Local price is literally a reimplementation of the real life principles behind market access penalty. It’s also bad game design because it’s negative implementation (there’s never a positive effect greater than the potential penalty) so it’s a net grind rather than an improvement on game accessibility
This is a great video! I was really confused about why my shipyards and navy were so slow in staffing up, but between this market access explanation and the efficiency sheet, it made it all a lot clearer.
Good morning. I have been watching your productions for a long time, and they are always of high quality. Thank you for the time you invest. All my encouragement for the future!
Thanks for the video explanation. It will really help me to think about and analyse the situation at the start of the game. In my dreams I sit with you and go through an analysis of a country, with outline plans of how we should proceed in general. You've done that I think for a few countries? I really need a mentor when I play, because I get lost in the game, wondering actually what to do next
I just got back into the game since the launch and my weekend flew by! I think this game is fairly playable now and I can still see many areas to improve on. Hopefully this will keep on improving like hoi4 did. Thanks for the video. I was thinking how to manage the local prizes versus EoS in the weekend and just winged it. Ended up doing okay. Is there a reason why I should be concerned of higher local prices in terms of radicalization or other inverse effects? Maybe it's good to build some staples to provinces before chasing EoS?
Thanks you for the explanation. I was building for throughput and my economy was tanking in Japan. I would like to see transportation, to some extent help more with this. Railroads increase the structure of a state, but if two states were connected by railroads it should bonus MAPI as the means of transporting goods is more efficient. Just my 2 cents. Love the game and your videos help a ton.
You need to get migration attraction up and join a market with pops you accept so you can get more pops. You can do that by increasing Sol, Heathcare institutions, having the intelligentsia powerful and happy and using the greener grass campaign edict. But you have to start early because migration is a lot slower now. You can also try to go for the food industry company and a powerful and happy church which increase birthrate. Church and intelligentsia are pretty much exclusive though. Add Workplace safety which reduces mortality. Stacking those modifiers can get a lot of popgrowth.
Hey Generalist, love your work, it's what convinced me to get vicky3. Question about MAPI: if one state sells/produces a good at a reduced price (more sell orders than buy orders), then that good is consumed/purchased by another state at an increased rate (more buy order than sell orders): does that mean the affect of MAPI is magnified? Also do the effects of MAPI destroy wealth?
Warm greetings from Russian Urals! A lot of thanks for the enormous effort and time spent on making this tutorial! I am Sokoto enjoyer and I'm really struggle to make good production here. Although I make iron tools in the state with iron mines my pops doesn't want to work on mines, even if I have shortage of iron. Would be great to see another step by step tutorial for the early game progression for such retarded countries like Sokoto and dumb players like me )
Have you seriously thought of becoming a teacher? XD Seriously, I love your engaging with some funny highlights in these explanations. Specially MAPI and LP are a tough nut to crack, but this is the way. Honestly, great work. And keep up those quality features coming, like the topic transitions. ;)
I may be misunderstanding something, but where does the extra money go. If the iron mines local price means they sell 10% cheaper, and the steel mill local price means they buy 10% more expensive. Is that difference going to pops somewhere or is it just lost from the system?
It's destroyed - or perhaps more accurately, never able to be earned. There's a lot of ways money is created and destroyed in Vic 3, but this is a huge driver of economies being slower in 1.5.
Coming very late to the video obviously but I do have a question if anyone happens to be looking at the comment section. At approximately 40 minutes when going through the example section it is mentioned that fabric is not very sensitive to mapi so could be imported/made elsewhere. I may be misunderstanding mapi efficiency but is that a conclusion that can be drawn? It is very efficient to produce, which means if made else where it is less effected by mapi in that state, but does that have any consequences for the state the construction is in? If the state containing the construction has no fabric, it will still be hampered by a relatively more expensive input due to its own local shortage no? I follow that the consequences of building up fabric in a different area are lower for the fabric, as it will see through to the market price more effectively and remain profitable without completely wiping its profitability out due to local prices, but construction will still be relatively more expensive in this case. Is this advantage the only one being referred to with the mention in that example, or am I missing a secondary advantage of efficiency as described? Also thank you so much to the vids, coming into the game after a long break, and not playing too much in the first place has me quite lost glad I can count on this channel for a very complete breakdown of the systems.
Thanks, very helpful. Question, are shortages driven by market price or local price? The wiki still says they occur when buy orders are double or more of sell orders, which would suggest it's market.
Hey, just watched your beginner econ guide and this vid looks a bit intimidating as a new player. Would you recommend persevering with the 1.5 guide playlist or does it make sense to watch some older guides first? I'm playing for the first time in 1.5. Thanks!
Haven't watched the whole video yet as I have to go to work. But given the new local price mechanics. Say I'm on Iron Frame Buildings. If I build my construction sectors in states that are producing iron/tools/wood/fabric, will the government be buying those resources at better local prices than off the national market?
Wow so much info, thanks!! I got question from another topic. You got any tips for playing a poor country without joinig an big custom union? Im having a hard time trying to survive the market by myself.
Great Video. Thanks a lot. What’s your recommendation about autonomous investments? Should it be turned off because of better control of what’s being built?
More control is stronger, but I think the "full" game includes dealing w/ autonomous investment. If I was trying to absolutely minmax GDP I'd turn it off, but also play speed 1 or something.
Hey really great and informative video, just one question: Russia starts with traditionalism too, should they also do Romanticism first instead of stock exchange?
No, because their landowners oppose it, but also because you can force your market liberal heir into power pretty quick by making him a general, getting him married, and then exiling the landowner to make him the IG leader (I think you abdicate after this but it might be before). It's really consistent and allows you to go Laisseze Faire. You also have way less sub farms than Qing
The thing is I'd love a video that explains in depth these local prices, and thus i clicked on the video while being very excited. The Moment i saw 55 minites though that excitement comoletely disappeared, i know I am not going to watch this. I see most of your videos are like this, I think you could get waaay more views if you also made 10/15 minutes long videos, not necessarily stopping these long ones if you like them, this is my suggestion.
@@generalistgaming see I am the opposite. when there is as much to cover as this seeing that it is a 50 minute video tells me it is likely that he actually covers everything and I don't have to hunt down like 5 more video's on the same topic. I especially love seeing the spreadsheets.
Very good. Thanks! I haven't played since version 1.3. Do railroads have an effect on the local price? You'd think they would, wouldn't you? Wouldn't infrastructure matter a great deal?
It would make sense. But no, it's just MAPI as far as i am aware. As long as you have sufficient infrastructure (meaning 100% market access) it does not affect local prices. So assuming that is the case, the only modifiers to MAPI which can improve it above your base is laws, (traditionalism gives a negative impact so going off of it is even more important in 1.5), technologies in the society tree, or certain local state modifiers usually connected to specific larger rivers.
There's not really such a thing as tall and wide in V3, everything just comes down to having enough pops. Being "wide" gives you more resource potentials, but you need enough pops to meaningfully exploit resources in the first place. Having more pops in a single state is almost always better as it lets you get better EoS and more consumption and production in the same place (better for MAPI reasons) In terms of development you have to chase the consumption, but some types of consumption are very player-driven (such as construction) so you can build those up more in a single state.
@@rabidfurifyI think theres is such a thing. Pretty much every country gets the same amount of Authority. However, some only have one state, such as the Romanian Principalities, Serbia, (almost) Belgium, every german Minor ever and the Central Asians. Thing is, you can spam every damn decree there is, meaning your early game, where you get your industry sorted and your pops educated is gonna be a hell of a lot easier than say Russia, even if you may start with the same exact political issues. Not to mention that Institutions take way less Bureucracy if you dont expand right away. So in cases like Romania its pretty good to just set the early groundwork and then unite in midgame or whatever. Thats not the case with the likes of Russia, France and Britain. They profit more from expansion and warmongering right away.
@@elseggs6504 There's very little reason to not use those edicts in the exact same way while also conquering territory, you can even attract new pops from the freshly-conquered regions into your built up core state(s)
It makes eco more complicated, yeah, but I find the system interesting to work/think through. Except local goods which are tedius. But if you don't want to manage ecos this might not be the ideal game choice, in terms of thinking about things from a macro sense
Vertical integration. Great. Will someone please inform the private construction to stop building randomly all over the map. Can't control them and my government construction is prioritized to mostly development projects.
And I was wondering why my constrution stayed expensive even though I was building so many iron mines. So, is it still worth it to use the 20% throuput bonus for iron mines in a state if my main production is somewhere else? Or is that only worth it with a high MAPI and I should do everything locally in the early game?
Hey Generalist, I keep finding myself having built up a single state like silesia with great MAPI, but running out of peasants in that state only. Is this the point where i stop building tall in just one state, and try to de-peseant everywhere? Or do i find a different good MAPI state to build tall in?
Kinda both. I think you build w/ a consideration to labor efficiency in the good mapi states and to depeasant elsewhere. I think I have a mid game economy video that kinda goes into detail w/ this in its Russia example, iirc?
@@TheAmazingFlint I mean like the opposite of wood - wood is super construction efficient, but is not as valuable if you run out of labor. Manufactories in general are more labor efficient but construction inefficient.
Does MAPI apply to the price pops pay? I.e. could i have a say only have one state dedictaed to say clothes or would the pops in other states end up paying alot more?
Does that mean for any consumer good you need to strike a balance between concetrating industrily to mitigate MAPI but also spread them sufficently to have stable prices? Seems impossible to do both. @generalistgaming
After watching this I'm convinced that mapi is a silly game mechanic (or perhaps its implementation is silly). It has such wide effects, but so few ways to affect it, and countries where it's difficult to get the local loop going are kinda screwed in seemingly unintended ways. It would have been nice if there was a resource you could invest in, which directly impacted the difference between local and market price, e.g transport.
My thoughts exactly! In the early game it kinda makes sense, as transportation wasn't really thar developed. But later one, the presence of railroads and better ports should impact positively the MAPI.
It is a half baked bad mechanic that breaks the economic game imo. It destroys massive amounts of money that simply disapear from the economy. There is a mod to make MAPI 100% and eliminate it, which i use.
@@Samuel88853I think the idea behind it is good. There should be a trade off between the benefits of keeping things local vs the benefits of economies of scale. But the implementation is kind of silly. Value shouldn't just disappear into the ether, it should flow away from industries that need to sell out of state and flow into the delivery industry that distributes goods between states.
What is your take on auto construction. After establishing a couple of input good buildings like iron and coal, do you just auto expand all of your construction goods? Do you do for your whole nation or do you do it individually per state
Question: Does transportaion infrastructure affect local prices? For example: W Virginia has a lot of coal so it's cheep there. But Ohio has all the industry and no coal making it expensive there. If I build railroads in both Ohio and W. Virginia does the price of coal in Ohio get cheaper, since it's now easier to trasport coal from the mines in WV to the factories in OH?
How do you easily manage this stuff and mitigate MAPI? Looks incredibly hard to do, esp. w/ the lack of UI infra for it... unless you go state by state and building by building, but that'd take forevs
Autoexpand can be helpful - so if I have lead in a state I can put the lead and glass on autoexpand, knowing that that will make profitable glass w/ cheaper lead, and more profitable lead w/ more expensive lead.
Follow-up, if you don't mind: How do you find states that make good candidates for rainbow states/figure out what states of yours that are already built up can be modified to become ones, if you wern't alr using this strategy to begin with? Is it just memorization of what states have alot of resources? The in-game UI doesn't really help w/ this sort of thing
No, if you only have one state than you will not be affected by MAPI. But you'll probably not want to leave it too long if you plan to expand your borders.
Would you say once I hit 85 % I shouldn't worry about local price as its marginally effecting the price of creating products. For example, if I make Glass in a state that doesnt have dyes or lead, I should be ok to keep building there.
No, the margins are still really important. But if you have a lot of buy orders for glass it can be okay because the trend to a shortage will allow the business to overcome lack of dyes and lead. But you’d not want to produce glass somewhere w no local buy orders, and no sell orders for inputs
@@generalistgamingThank you for the response! If I am understanding you right… In my Prussia game, I built numerous barracks in Berlin. My 80 barracks created an Ammunition demand of +88% local market price. However, there is no Lead or Sulfur within the Berlin Province to support an Ammunition Factory. From my understanding, it would be better to build that Ammunition factory in an area that has both lead and sulfur like Silesia. Then Berlin would have to buy ammunition from the market. In summary, if there is a demand for A in a province but the input goods to make A ( B & C ) are not found in that province, then build A factory where input goods (B &C) are located. Therefore the province that needed A will have to buy A from the market. Is this the right logic?
Not quite. For ammo most preferable is having the buy orders for the output (barracks) and the sell orders for the inputs (sulfur/lead) in the same province. In the example you give Silesia has only the sell orders - it doesn't have buy orders for ammo too. Having just one (barracks) or the other (sulfur lead) is okay, not terrible - often you can't have it all. Having neither buy orders for a good or sell orders in a province makes the manufactory really bad in general.@@redmars2813
@@generalistgaming Thank you again for your detailed explanation. I just rewatched your video, and you stated sometimes you don't have control of your input goods. Therefore, putting manufactories such as ammo in the place that there is demand for it such as Berlin, would be more optimized than having it be in Silesia with no buy orders as there is no barracks in Silesia.
Whats your advice for minors with low pop like Argentina? I seem to either run into pop limits on employement/expansion before i can liberalize OR end up in horrible debt/ locked out of growing my constr industry.
So maybe it's even better to import steel because then you don't have any reductions in price? The agricultural industry was already extremely strong before and now it is the only one that can still make big profits. I thought this was a game for industrialization. But the new system of local prices is ruining it quite a bit. Actually, you now want to turn your entire country into a huge state where there are no deductions in the price...Is it perhaps even better to stay on iron frames for as long as possible?
You are not wrong. People, somehow, praise it as a move in the right direction but seem to forget that MAPI is basically just a flat debuff to market access in every state. It's shallow and boring
I know you understand these new mechanics, but it's very complicated. It would be helpful to slow down your explanation so we can understand the core concept.
Crazy how long and how much somebody can talk about a game that does not really care about all that was said in this video. You can just press a button and watch numbers grow no thinking required at all. It's incredibly hard to lose in Vici 3 as long as you understand "Price high = bad".
I wouldn't say higher MAPI is always better for every state. Sure this is true 99.9% of the time, but in extreme cases where the market is even more polarized than your state then it isn't. Say, you have a state that produces 100 steel and consumes 110, while the market has 10k sell orders and 15k buy orders. The the market would pull the local prices in a worse direction. That said, higher MAPI is always better for the entire market, if you're assuming that every state's MAPI changes the same amount. And if you're a small country within someone else's market and finding that higher MAPI's pulling you down, then first of all that's rare, second of all you should just leave the market.
It's better for every state in the aggregate, but I honestly can't remember what I said in this video. If I specified on a state by state basis for a specific good (because the overall goods basket almost certainly is better on a state by state basis too) then I was mistaken, yeah.
In my humble opinion, these videos are too long for some of us. If you feel like it, you could do 10m or so videos as a complement. On that note, your summaries are very good, maybe you could repurpouse them as those shorter videos. I dont know if it is better for your channel but it would be probably much better for those like me that want to learn but not to expert levels
@@generalistgaming The game is so confusing but I'm trying, you should do a series where you look at peoples save games, explain what they did wrong and show them how to fix it.
I really don't like 1.5. I don't think more micro and more "restrictions" on how to build factories is the right way to go with this game. But good video!
Great explanation! Too bad it's such a retarded system. I'm going to give an example for the USA: Pennsylvania starts with a level 2 Steel Mill, which needs coal and iron. Before this patch, I could source it anywhere in the world. Same state, West-Virginia next door, Montana even without a railroad connection between the two states, or a colony on the other side of the world. Not very realistic, but it is a game. Now, with the current patch it is ONLY efficient to source that coal and iron in the same state of Pennsylvania. If you source it from anywhere else, you get a malus; doesn't matter if it is from West-Virginia next door, Montana with no railroad connection, or a colony on the other side of the world. It has made the game slightly more realistic but has introduced an enormous amount of complexity due to the different prices everywhere. In my opinion, they should implement a system similar to HOI4's logistics: factor in volume, and infrastructure level in between. You shouldn't be able to supply your Pennsylvania Steel Mill with coal and iron from Montana at all if there is no infrastructure connection; conversely, if you have 16-lane railroads in both Pennsylvania and West-Virginia, they should more or less count as the same state as it is just a few hours away by train. This would make the game so much more realistic. I think it would make already a LOT more sense to have for example every 10 infrastructure present in a state provide +1% market access. If anyone can tell me where I can find the infrastructure calculation in the game files, I'd be grateful - I looked everywhere. Also, why does the Mississippi or Danube give extra market access, but the Nile or Seine or Elbe not? And why can a state like Iowa, thanks to the Mississippi, reach 100% market access, but New York with massive ports and railways not? Huh? This is just... stupid? I assume this will be reworked again in the next patch; for the meantime, I've found a mod that completely negates the market access mechanic...
So something more nuanced having to do w/ distance would involve a lot more calculations which is why its not implemented this way. I don't know why the Nile doesn't have a bonus. I also think ports should have that bonus if the rivers are going to. I very much doubt they are going to roll it back, or touch it for 1.6.
Ahh yes, steel. Famously the least important and profitable industry and not in fact the literal backbone of the Industrial Revolution. I wish PDX would stop leaning so hard into laissez faire economics and represent command/trade independent economics more accurately
This game stinks so bad… I pity anyone who has actually wasted time from their lives they’ll never get back playing this junk. Just go play vic 2 and don’t be ridiculous.
At launch I would have agreed with you. I think the game is on great path and the changes they've made have been good from what I can see. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but maybe this just isnt the type of game you enjoy?
I feel like an easier and more realistic way of doing all this would have been to modify prices by the cost of transportation from source to destination. If source and destination are close by, its cheap. If not, it’s more expensive but you can mitigate it by making transportation cheaper
Unfortunately that would increase the computation demand geometrically (I think). If n locations produce a good and we add a new location to consume that good we now have n additional computations to make to determine price. According to Gauss that's ½n(n+1) calculations... per good. This would give us a computational demand of O(n²) which is just too high for a game of this complexity.
yep, MAPI represents transportation costs, so the next logical step would be to compute actual transportation costs.
@Sigma-xb6kn only if you didn't precompile distances and store them in a matrix ahead of time. Even something simple like calculate a distance matrix between all states upon initialization even if O(n^2) is fine for a startup calculation since the number of states is small in computational terms, sort that upon initialization, (O(nlog(n)), then just check the distances for the state from consumption in O(n) to find the closest state with the good and apply the transport penalty, that is assuming the same goods are otherwise sold at the same price within the market. Can then add optimizations to add/remove goods from individual market matrices periodically to further optimize and see if a more efficient good availability exists or create a reporting mechanism when production value changes for a good (probably would lead to inconsistent performance though depending on the rate of updates). Bit of memory usage and probably wouldn't help performance, but they already doubtless use similar methods already for mechanics or the game would chug horrendously.
Another great video. MAPI threw off my usual 'build stacks of buildings to max throughput' tactic and now we have new nuances. It feels more historically and economically realistic. Great seeing the spreadsheets and glad you do all that grunt work to distill it down for us!
I still push throughput more than I should before getting whomped by MAPI lol
I find the opposite is true, it made building a slog even more than it already was and local prices encourage concentration rather than developing every state because resources aren’t very well distributed
@@gaberobison680it's going to depend on your country and resources. Construction is going to naturally gravitate to provinces with all the basic resources for tooling/construction sectors. Bigger/resource rich countries have more viable areas for growth, which I think is a good representation of reality
@@thompkins6796It sounds good on paper but in reality it's just a flat -15% market access penalty to every state. You will have to eat the flat 15% money sink somewhere down the line and it made the game feel like an idle game if you're playing anything else but a GP. It could work, but right now it's just a money sink that penalizes you for building concentrated industries.
I bought the game three days ago and am playing it enthusiastically. I discovered your videos yesterday because I wanted to better understand the economic system behind the game ... now I'm hanging on to your wonderful hairless thinking head like a leech and feasting on your seemingly unlimited knowledge.
Thank you for the past and future feasts.
Insane work put into these videos.
Glad you like them!
Really appreciate the amount of work you put into these videos. I don't think I would enjoy Victoria 3 as much if at all, if i didn't have the know-how from your videos. Amazing job!
Glad you like them!
The entire point of markets was to prevent these stupid local price shenanigans. This game mechanic actively refutes the purpose of infrastructure and actively makes the best states better and the average state worse. What if I want sovereign agriculture? Not allowed because arable land is linked to starting population and not the actual potential productivity. Yet resources like iron are based on hypothetical abstract yields as determined by actual geological studies. And is treated as infinite and inexhaustible
Thanks for this! It was super helpful learning what industries were more affected by local prices. I had noticed that it was way harder to get an efficient really big steel factory than most of the other stuff I was making. Now I know why going wide on steel helped me so much!
Yeah I was initially bullish on wide steel. You still can do it, but I think you need a pretty specific condition to want to. Like Belgium wants too, and I think maybe Prussia?
Hey MahDryBread, very happy to see you here, I watched your channel for your The Guild II tutorials, do you plan on maybe showing the new megamod developed by Fajeth? Would be very epic!
@@loke_the_champ Sorry, I've never heard of that mod
We need more spreadsheets!
Thanks for the thorough approach!
We actually need a war system guide, something about optimal army sizes and compositions. I hope you are working on something like that!
I am, probably tomorrow!
This explains why I was suffering so much with MAPI 60% and building things in different states like I normally would to spread out the workforce.
Oh yeah, huge pain. Big bad.
@@generalistgaming hey General I am part of your discord server but I cant find that EXCEL sheet you made. Can you make it available? Thank you
Vic 3 really live up to spreadsheet simulator and I love it, thanks for the guide
Really just a spreadsheet skin
I'm genuinely amazed I have been able to totally understand everything in this video, Victoria 3 is such an overwhelming game as someone with no experience but you've done an amazing job in condensing the information in a way I can process having only watched a couple of game play videos on your channel. The spreadsheet was particularly helpful and I'll be keeping it on my other mointor for future games!
Local price is literally a reimplementation of the real life principles behind market access penalty. It’s also bad game design because it’s negative implementation (there’s never a positive effect greater than the potential penalty) so it’s a net grind rather than an improvement on game accessibility
master of V3 in action, thanks!
ahhh, the best ASMR of economics to rest my mind
This is a great video! I was really confused about why my shipyards and navy were so slow in staffing up, but between this market access explanation and the efficiency sheet, it made it all a lot clearer.
Good morning. I have been watching your productions for a long time, and they are always of high quality. Thank you for the time you invest. All my encouragement for the future!
Glad you like them!
Thanks for the video explanation. It will really help me to think about and analyse the situation at the start of the game. In my dreams I sit with you and go through an analysis of a country, with outline plans of how we should proceed in general. You've done that I think for a few countries? I really need a mentor when I play, because I get lost in the game, wondering actually what to do next
Im am grateful for all the great info you put out, i truly have great respect for the work you do. Keep it up man, Godbless
I love these long videos! It really helps me understand the game better.
Glad you like them!
I just got back into the game since the launch and my weekend flew by! I think this game is fairly playable now and I can still see many areas to improve on. Hopefully this will keep on improving like hoi4 did.
Thanks for the video. I was thinking how to manage the local prizes versus EoS in the weekend and just winged it. Ended up doing okay. Is there a reason why I should be concerned of higher local prices in terms of radicalization or other inverse effects? Maybe it's good to build some staples to provinces before chasing EoS?
Thanks you for the explanation. I was building for throughput and my economy was tanking in Japan. I would like to see transportation, to some extent help more with this. Railroads increase the structure of a state, but if two states were connected by railroads it should bonus MAPI as the means of transporting goods is more efficient. Just my 2 cents. Love the game and your videos help a ton.
awesome video! you are killing it! Have you ever done a military one? I know its relatively simple, but i feel like im missing something at times.
Amazing explanation, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Can u do a guide for small and low pop nations? Once I reach 1900 I always run out of pops
You need to get migration attraction up and join a market with pops you accept so you can get more pops. You can do that by increasing Sol, Heathcare institutions, having the intelligentsia powerful and happy and using the greener grass campaign edict. But you have to start early because migration is a lot slower now. You can also try to go for the food industry company and a powerful and happy church which increase birthrate. Church and intelligentsia are pretty much exclusive though.
Add Workplace safety which reduces mortality. Stacking those modifiers can get a lot of popgrowth.
lower your taxes
Hey Generalist, love your work, it's what convinced me to get vicky3. Question about MAPI: if one state sells/produces a good at a reduced price (more sell orders than buy orders), then that good is consumed/purchased by another state at an increased rate (more buy order than sell orders): does that mean the affect of MAPI is magnified? Also do the effects of MAPI destroy wealth?
You often eat MAPI penalties twice, yes. It does destroy value. A lot of things do though.
Warm greetings from Russian Urals! A lot of thanks for the enormous effort and time spent on making this tutorial! I am Sokoto enjoyer and I'm really struggle to make good production here. Although I make iron tools in the state with iron mines my pops doesn't want to work on mines, even if I have shortage of iron.
Would be great to see another step by step tutorial for the early game progression for such retarded countries like Sokoto and dumb players like me )
Have you seriously thought of becoming a teacher? XD
Seriously, I love your engaging with some funny highlights in these explanations. Specially MAPI and LP are a tough nut to crack, but this is the way.
Honestly, great work. And keep up those quality features coming, like the topic transitions. ;)
Teaching philosophy/going back to grad school is probably the long term plan if I can't make this YT thing work.
Thank you!
Weird how the Closed Borders law doesn't impact MAPI
I may be misunderstanding something, but where does the extra money go.
If the iron mines local price means they sell 10% cheaper, and the steel mill local price means they buy 10% more expensive. Is that difference going to pops somewhere or is it just lost from the system?
It's destroyed - or perhaps more accurately, never able to be earned. There's a lot of ways money is created and destroyed in Vic 3, but this is a huge driver of economies being slower in 1.5.
19 seconds ago... Good stuff in advance👍
When will you do the Brazil live again?
When migration is fixed, probably this Sat.
Whats wrong with migration rn?
It sounds like the new mechanic deletes money out of the loop. Where will this money come back from?
It doesn't come back. Economies in 1.5 are depressed rel to 1.4. Also construction costs are up
Coming very late to the video obviously but I do have a question if anyone happens to be looking at the comment section. At approximately 40 minutes when going through the example section it is mentioned that fabric is not very sensitive to mapi so could be imported/made elsewhere. I may be misunderstanding mapi efficiency but is that a conclusion that can be drawn? It is very efficient to produce, which means if made else where it is less effected by mapi in that state, but does that have any consequences for the state the construction is in? If the state containing the construction has no fabric, it will still be hampered by a relatively more expensive input due to its own local shortage no? I follow that the consequences of building up fabric in a different area are lower for the fabric, as it will see through to the market price more effectively and remain profitable without completely wiping its profitability out due to local prices, but construction will still be relatively more expensive in this case. Is this advantage the only one being referred to with the mention in that example, or am I missing a secondary advantage of efficiency as described?
Also thank you so much to the vids, coming into the game after a long break, and not playing too much in the first place has me quite lost glad I can count on this channel for a very complete breakdown of the systems.
Thanks, very helpful. Question, are shortages driven by market price or local price? The wiki still says they occur when buy orders are double or more of sell orders, which would suggest it's market.
Great video... Is it possible to gain access to the spreadsheets that you are using ?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1NDUwUWHlNuQTWMejK0Agv8gC3fn6ujiXKE9WfVmjFBc/edit?ouid=104152358421971440787&usp=sheets_home&ths=true
Awesome, many thanks
Hey, just watched your beginner econ guide and this vid looks a bit intimidating as a new player. Would you recommend persevering with the 1.5 guide playlist or does it make sense to watch some older guides first? I'm playing for the first time in 1.5. Thanks!
If you're newer I think maybe just play the game a bit after the first (beginner econ) video, or only watch the basic strategy portion of this video.
Haven't watched the whole video yet as I have to go to work. But given the new local price mechanics. Say I'm on Iron Frame Buildings. If I build my construction sectors in states that are producing iron/tools/wood/fabric, will the government be buying those resources at better local prices than off the national market?
Wow so much info, thanks!!
I got question from another topic. You got any tips for playing a poor country without joinig an big custom union? Im having a hard time trying to survive the market by myself.
Small countries are rough rn w/ the migration bug, but I'd absolutely recommend joing a CU to solve pop problems.
Great Video. Thanks a lot. What’s your recommendation about autonomous investments? Should it be turned off because of better control of what’s being built?
More control is stronger, but I think the "full" game includes dealing w/ autonomous investment. If I was trying to absolutely minmax GDP I'd turn it off, but also play speed 1 or something.
Hey really great and informative video, just one question: Russia starts with traditionalism too, should they also do Romanticism first instead of stock exchange?
No, because their landowners oppose it, but also because you can force your market liberal heir into power pretty quick by making him a general, getting him married, and then exiling the landowner to make him the IG leader (I think you abdicate after this but it might be before). It's really consistent and allows you to go Laisseze Faire. You also have way less sub farms than Qing
The thing is I'd love a video that explains in depth these local prices, and thus i clicked on the video while being very excited. The Moment i saw 55 minites though that excitement comoletely disappeared, i know I am not going to watch this. I see most of your videos are like this, I think you could get waaay more views if you also made 10/15 minutes long videos, not necessarily stopping these long ones if you like them, this is my suggestion.
So I probably should have frontloaded this better, but the first 16 minutes is the basic explanation, and there is also a 5-6 summary at the end.
@@generalistgaming see I am the opposite. when there is as much to cover as this seeing that it is a 50 minute video tells me it is likely that he actually covers everything and I don't have to hunt down like 5 more video's on the same topic. I especially love seeing the spreadsheets.
Very good. Thanks!
I haven't played since version 1.3. Do railroads have an effect on the local price? You'd think they would, wouldn't you? Wouldn't infrastructure matter a great deal?
It would make sense. But no, it's just MAPI as far as i am aware. As long as you have sufficient infrastructure (meaning 100% market access) it does not affect local prices. So assuming that is the case, the only modifiers to MAPI which can improve it above your base is laws, (traditionalism gives a negative impact so going off of it is even more important in 1.5), technologies in the society tree, or certain local state modifiers usually connected to specific larger rivers.
@@snelhestarna
OK, thanks!
yes my initial reaction was that railroads should give MAPI same as rivers.
want +30% in an Excel cell? =VALUE*1.3
want -30% in an Excel cell? =VALUE*0.7
Should I still be playing tall, or should I start playing wide? I'm wondering because of the new pollution mechanics.
Early to mid play tall, later wide.
For construction goods like steel, explosive, glass, etc better build tall
For consumer goods like groceries etc, better build wide
There's not really such a thing as tall and wide in V3, everything just comes down to having enough pops. Being "wide" gives you more resource potentials, but you need enough pops to meaningfully exploit resources in the first place. Having more pops in a single state is almost always better as it lets you get better EoS and more consumption and production in the same place (better for MAPI reasons)
In terms of development you have to chase the consumption, but some types of consumption are very player-driven (such as construction) so you can build those up more in a single state.
@@rabidfurifyI think theres is such a thing. Pretty much every country gets the same amount of Authority. However, some only have one state, such as the Romanian Principalities, Serbia, (almost) Belgium, every german Minor ever and the Central Asians. Thing is, you can spam every damn decree there is, meaning your early game, where you get your industry sorted and your pops educated is gonna be a hell of a lot easier than say Russia, even if you may start with the same exact political issues. Not to mention that Institutions take way less Bureucracy if you dont expand right away.
So in cases like Romania its pretty good to just set the early groundwork and then unite in midgame or whatever.
Thats not the case with the likes of Russia, France and Britain. They profit more from expansion and warmongering right away.
@@elseggs6504 There's very little reason to not use those edicts in the exact same way while also conquering territory, you can even attract new pops from the freshly-conquered regions into your built up core state(s)
Does this make the eco game more complicated? Do we have to spend more time on it? If true, how is this a good update?
It makes eco more complicated, yeah, but I find the system interesting to work/think through. Except local goods which are tedius. But if you don't want to manage ecos this might not be the ideal game choice, in terms of thinking about things from a macro sense
Vertical integration. Great. Will someone please inform the private construction to stop building randomly all over the map. Can't control them and my government construction is prioritized to mostly development projects.
You can change that in the settings. Private funds will now invest in the projects you choose.
We'll just call it 'gentle persuasion' and take their money for govt sponsored projects.
And I was wondering why my constrution stayed expensive even though I was building so many iron mines. So, is it still worth it to use the 20% throuput bonus for iron mines in a state if my main production is somewhere else? Or is that only worth it with a high MAPI and I should do everything locally in the early game?
You should build your production where your iron is
Hey Generalist, I keep finding myself having built up a single state like silesia with great MAPI, but running out of peasants in that state only. Is this the point where i stop building tall in just one state, and try to de-peseant everywhere? Or do i find a different good MAPI state to build tall in?
Kinda both. I think you build w/ a consideration to labor efficiency in the good mapi states and to depeasant elsewhere. I think I have a mid game economy video that kinda goes into detail w/ this in its Russia example, iirc?
@@generalistgaming With labor efficient, do you mean labor saving PM's, or do you mean efficient buildings in general like wood?
@@TheAmazingFlint I mean like the opposite of wood - wood is super construction efficient, but is not as valuable if you run out of labor. Manufactories in general are more labor efficient but construction inefficient.
Does MAPI apply to the price pops pay? I.e. could i have a say only have one state dedictaed to say clothes or would the pops in other states end up paying alot more?
Yes
Does that mean for any consumer good you need to strike a balance between concetrating industrily to mitigate MAPI but also spread them sufficently to have stable prices? Seems impossible to do both. @generalistgaming
Does it make sense to put one basic need good producer in each province to decrease local price to increase pops fulfilling basic needs (sol)?
After watching this I'm convinced that mapi is a silly game mechanic (or perhaps its implementation is silly). It has such wide effects, but so few ways to affect it, and countries where it's difficult to get the local loop going are kinda screwed in seemingly unintended ways. It would have been nice if there was a resource you could invest in, which directly impacted the difference between local and market price, e.g transport.
My thoughts exactly! In the early game it kinda makes sense, as transportation wasn't really thar developed. But later one, the presence of railroads and better ports should impact positively the MAPI.
It is a half baked bad mechanic that breaks the economic game imo. It destroys massive amounts of money that simply disapear from the economy. There is a mod to make MAPI 100% and eliminate it, which i use.
@@Samuel88853I think the idea behind it is good. There should be a trade off between the benefits of keeping things local vs the benefits of economies of scale. But the implementation is kind of silly. Value shouldn't just disappear into the ether, it should flow away from industries that need to sell out of state and flow into the delivery industry that distributes goods between states.
What is your take on auto construction. After establishing a couple of input good buildings like iron and coal, do you just auto expand all of your construction goods? Do you do for your whole nation or do you do it individually per state
I do it on a per state basis, and it's more for convenience than minmax
Question: Does transportaion infrastructure affect local prices? For example: W Virginia has a lot of coal so it's cheep there. But Ohio has all the industry and no coal making it expensive there. If I build railroads in both Ohio and W. Virginia does the price of coal in Ohio get cheaper, since it's now easier to trasport coal from the mines in WV to the factories in OH?
No, prices only apply to the market or the individual state - getting coal to NY from Virginia is the same as getting it from Prussia.
@@generalistgaming Thanks. That seems like something the devs may consider implementing.
How do you easily manage this stuff and mitigate MAPI? Looks incredibly hard to do, esp. w/ the lack of UI infra for it... unless you go state by state and building by building, but that'd take forevs
Autoexpand can be helpful - so if I have lead in a state I can put the lead and glass on autoexpand, knowing that that will make profitable glass w/ cheaper lead, and more profitable lead w/ more expensive lead.
@@generalistgaming that makes sense! ty
Follow-up, if you don't mind: How do you find states that make good candidates for rainbow states/figure out what states of yours that are already built up can be modified to become ones, if you wern't alr using this strategy to begin with? Is it just memorization of what states have alot of resources? The in-game UI doesn't really help w/ this sort of thing
Local prices are like a great idea, but they fucking suck to play with.
Russia starts out fucked, everything is local prices only, what’s the point of the infrastructure cap and having a national market PDX?
Do i need stock exchange as a single state nation with my own market?
No, if you only have one state than you will not be affected by MAPI.
But you'll probably not want to leave it too long if you plan to expand your borders.
It's still affecting trade a lot, so if you need trade to turn on a lot of PMs, then yes.
Would you say once I hit 85 % I shouldn't worry about local price as its marginally effecting the price of creating products. For example, if I make Glass in a state that doesnt have dyes or lead, I should be ok to keep building there.
No, the margins are still really important. But if you have a lot of buy orders for glass it can be okay because the trend to a shortage will allow the business to overcome lack of dyes and lead. But you’d not want to produce glass somewhere w no local buy orders, and no sell orders for inputs
@@generalistgamingThank you for the response!
If I am understanding you right…
In my Prussia game, I built numerous barracks in Berlin. My 80 barracks created an Ammunition demand of +88% local market price. However, there is no Lead or Sulfur within the Berlin Province to support an Ammunition Factory. From my understanding, it would be better to build that Ammunition factory in an area that has both lead and sulfur like Silesia. Then Berlin would have to buy ammunition from the market.
In summary, if there is a demand for A in a province but the input goods to make A ( B & C ) are not found in that province, then build A factory where input goods (B &C) are located. Therefore the province that needed A will have to buy A from the market.
Is this the right logic?
Not quite. For ammo most preferable is having the buy orders for the output (barracks) and the sell orders for the inputs (sulfur/lead) in the same province. In the example you give Silesia has only the sell orders - it doesn't have buy orders for ammo too.
Having just one (barracks) or the other (sulfur lead) is okay, not terrible - often you can't have it all. Having neither buy orders for a good or sell orders in a province makes the manufactory really bad in general.@@redmars2813
@@generalistgaming Thank you again for your detailed explanation. I just rewatched your video, and you stated sometimes you don't have control of your input goods. Therefore, putting manufactories such as ammo in the place that there is demand for it such as Berlin, would be more optimized than having it be in Silesia with no buy orders as there is no barracks in Silesia.
Whats your advice for minors with low pop like Argentina? I seem to either run into pop limits on employement/expansion before i can liberalize OR end up in horrible debt/ locked out of growing my constr industry.
Try to join Russia's market, and wait until the migration hotfix this week.
Where can i find this excel?
I'm feeling like in a class for Econ 😂
So maybe it's even better to import steel because then you don't have any reductions in price? The agricultural industry was already extremely strong before and now it is the only one that can still make big profits. I thought this was a game for industrialization. But the new system of local prices is ruining it quite a bit. Actually, you now want to turn your entire country into a huge state where there are no deductions in the price...Is it perhaps even better to stay on iron frames for as long as possible?
You are not wrong. People, somehow, praise it as a move in the right direction but seem to forget that MAPI is basically just a flat debuff to market access in every state. It's shallow and boring
I know you understand these new mechanics, but it's very complicated. It would be helpful to slow down your explanation so we can understand the core concept.
So much info for a new player, but you explain it so good! Should say "nsfw" on video header because of spreadsheet.
Why is it always bad though? We don't manufacture where we mine IRL... Silly game logic
Crazy how long and how much somebody can talk about a game that does not really care about all that was said in this video. You can just press a button and watch numbers grow no thinking required at all. It's incredibly hard to lose in Vici 3 as long as you understand "Price high = bad".
The line always goes up, the question is by how much or how quickly. High prices also aren't bad.
@@generalistgaming Dismissable
I wouldn't say higher MAPI is always better for every state. Sure this is true 99.9% of the time, but in extreme cases where the market is even more polarized than your state then it isn't. Say, you have a state that produces 100 steel and consumes 110, while the market has 10k sell orders and 15k buy orders. The the market would pull the local prices in a worse direction. That said, higher MAPI is always better for the entire market, if you're assuming that every state's MAPI changes the same amount. And if you're a small country within someone else's market and finding that higher MAPI's pulling you down, then first of all that's rare, second of all you should just leave the market.
It's better for every state in the aggregate, but I honestly can't remember what I said in this video. If I specified on a state by state basis for a specific good (because the overall goods basket almost certainly is better on a state by state basis too) then I was mistaken, yeah.
Thank you Based God
a fucking hour movie
Prussia is unplayable this patch, you can’t afford anything and MAPI ruins your profitability. Time to rollback to 1.3 I guess
MAPI gave me a headache.
In my humble opinion, these videos are too long for some of us. If you feel like it, you could do 10m or so videos as a complement. On that note, your summaries are very good, maybe you could repurpouse them as those shorter videos. I dont know if it is better for your channel but it would be probably much better for those like me that want to learn but not to expert levels
There is to much info for that.
This might be something I poll for, but I swear I'm trying to make these videos shorter. I feel like I'm not explaining it if I had just the summary.
This game feels like homework
this change is excruciating to learn. i just can't like it.
I feel more confused after watching this :/
:/
@@generalistgaming The game is so confusing but I'm trying, you should do a series where you look at peoples save games, explain what they did wrong and show them how to fix it.
I really don't like 1.5. I don't think more micro and more "restrictions" on how to build factories is the right way to go with this game. But good video!
I enjoy it a lot, but I also enjoy figuring out new systems
Great explanation! Too bad it's such a retarded system. I'm going to give an example for the USA:
Pennsylvania starts with a level 2 Steel Mill, which needs coal and iron. Before this patch, I could source it anywhere in the world. Same state, West-Virginia next door, Montana even without a railroad connection between the two states, or a colony on the other side of the world. Not very realistic, but it is a game. Now, with the current patch it is ONLY efficient to source that coal and iron in the same state of Pennsylvania. If you source it from anywhere else, you get a malus; doesn't matter if it is from West-Virginia next door, Montana with no railroad connection, or a colony on the other side of the world. It has made the game slightly more realistic but has introduced an enormous amount of complexity due to the different prices everywhere. In my opinion, they should implement a system similar to HOI4's logistics: factor in volume, and infrastructure level in between. You shouldn't be able to supply your Pennsylvania Steel Mill with coal and iron from Montana at all if there is no infrastructure connection; conversely, if you have 16-lane railroads in both Pennsylvania and West-Virginia, they should more or less count as the same state as it is just a few hours away by train. This would make the game so much more realistic. I think it would make already a LOT more sense to have for example every 10 infrastructure present in a state provide +1% market access. If anyone can tell me where I can find the infrastructure calculation in the game files, I'd be grateful - I looked everywhere.
Also, why does the Mississippi or Danube give extra market access, but the Nile or Seine or Elbe not? And why can a state like Iowa, thanks to the Mississippi, reach 100% market access, but New York with massive ports and railways not? Huh?
This is just... stupid? I assume this will be reworked again in the next patch; for the meantime, I've found a mod that completely negates the market access mechanic...
So something more nuanced having to do w/ distance would involve a lot more calculations which is why its not implemented this way.
I don't know why the Nile doesn't have a bonus. I also think ports should have that bonus if the rivers are going to.
I very much doubt they are going to roll it back, or touch it for 1.6.
This ruined the game for me.
Ahh yes, steel. Famously the least important and profitable industry and not in fact the literal backbone of the Industrial Revolution. I wish PDX would stop leaning so hard into laissez faire economics and represent command/trade independent economics more accurately
This game stinks so bad… I pity anyone who has actually wasted time from their lives they’ll never get back playing this junk.
Just go play vic 2 and don’t be ridiculous.
Ngl, I feel like you probably wasted some time writing that comment
@@generalistgaming around 20 seconds if that. How many hours have you put into this mobile clicker game?
@@TaniasUnclevic 2 is just too outdated for me.
@@zimtwiers9726 I agree I don’t play it either anymore but it’s still better than this one. Vic 3 is the worst paradox game by far, it’s so bad.
At launch I would have agreed with you. I think the game is on great path and the changes they've made have been good from what I can see. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but maybe this just isnt the type of game you enjoy?