Is Jazz BLACK Music?
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- Who REALLY made jazz? In this short Stream VOD clip, I give some of my brief thoughts on the subject during an analysis of a Stanley Crouch, Wynton Marsalis, and Marcus Roberts interview from 1992, which had gone viral in the recent years. Part of a bigger discussion around the topic of jazz, pop, and other things...
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#RealTalk
I'm just pinning this here as a memo to see how many people actually watch the video before commenting
aight
Just discovered your channel and I must thank you for the quality of your content and integrity of your thoughts/arguments expressed in them! 🤝
Even IF some of the respondents watched the entire video, they DIDN'T under/overstand the "QUESTION", or they 'forgot' or dismissed the "MAIN" topic!! Then as 'usual' they started inserting peripheral issues, diversions, dilutions, and appropriations to confound the "QUESTION"; is "Jazz essentially Black Music"!? the correct answer is "YES", IMO; with respect to who "CREATED" the ART FORM. The Art and the craft BlackMusic/Jazz, is available to ALL who want to embrace, study and/or perform it!! The comments started 'trippin' off, what instruments they used, where did they get them from, where and what country they were in, etc. When you 'omit' the Cultural and Spiritual roots of the Music/ArtForm to pacify critics and cynics, 'BlackMusic' gets 'white washed', plagiarized, Rebranded and co-opted by chronic habitual Kleptomaniacs!! The progressives of the 1960s realized that Fact, and addressed that common Anti BlackAmericanDOS practice, with a new term {BlackMusic}, for 'Their' Music "style" and Art Form legacy, including... Spirituals, Da Blues; all styles, including Rock&Roll, traditional Africa & Slave inspired 'Folk Music' & Poetry, Jass, Jazz Vocal and instrumental, R&B, et al. You said what needed to be said, apparently some DIDN'T get it, Believe It, or, DIDN'T like it!! Bottom line... GUD Job!!!! ... Jis' Sayin'... ✊🏿💯✊🏿
Is see jazz as a unique collaboration of western instruments combined with African folk traditions. Some western ideas of harmony being reinvented with African rhythms
@@danielcockram3785 Anyone but us huh.
I don’t think Stanley Crouch meant to suggest that this music didn’t originate from African American culture. I’m sure he would agree that jazz is an art form initially created by black communities, and is therefore innately connected with black culture. However, to me it seems like when he says jazz is “human music”, he’s referring to who the music is for, not who created it. So it’s not that jazz wasn’t created by black artists, it’s that the scope of who can express their experience using the art form isn’t limited to them; it’s for anyone and everyone. And that’s a testament to how powerful it truly is
@@joeschmoe6720 Are you ignoring the collectively accepted colloquial nomenclature of "black" being a culturally claimed alternative for African-American to make a point? Or is there another meaning behind your assertion here?
Because if it's the latter, you'll have to do a lot of serious reaching to claim that there is no "black" in jazz, and I don't even want to waste my time entertaining that assertion. Lol.
@@joeschmoe6720 The reason I am so cautious with your answer is because it's asserting that the land a person lives on is more important than the ideas that they hold. Wanting to emphasize "AMERICA" so much is a clear dog whistle for something deeper than what's being asserted. There is a certain undertone of nationalism in that claim, and the problem I take with the nationalism in this context is that there was only one collective ethnic group of people that claimed right to the land of the USA, and it was not the ancestors of my people.
@@joeschmoe6720 What the fuck? You think I'm trying to "impress" you with "refined language"? That's what you took out of that? The opportunity to patronize me? LOL.
@@joeschmoe6720 No, you're being hypocritical and delusional. And here's why:
1. Hypocrisy: You talk so much about how this is "America's" music first and foremost, saying how the music has no color and no culture attached to it, just "music for the soul" and everyone is free within it - YET you patronize me for expressing my ideas in an articulate and well-thought-out manner, suitable for the online WRITTEN discourse that we're having. This leads into-
2. Delusion: "Talk like the cats back in the day" means shit to me when you have artists "back in the day" such as Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, Teddy Wilson, Art Blakey, Oscar Peterson, John Coltrane, to name a miniscule few, and etc., who were not only architects of sound, but also of word. You rather live in the illusion that jazz is just a "vibe" to you, and you're disappointed that I don't fit this impression.
And you're not my parent, I don't care what you think of my reactionary swearing.
@@joeschmoe6720 Ah, okay, I see the message I missed while I was typing, and I'm glad I did - mentioning Christ and God as your supporting element for this stance. Tells me all I need to know about where this is headed. I'm done with this.
Also, pretending that the "founding fathers" didn't write our founding governmental documents while all owning slaves that were considered "less than human" for 300+ years and acting like "all ethnic groups" were included is peak delusion. There's nowhere for us to find congruency in this conversation, I'm afraid.
But before I go, I'm curious what in the world my ideology that starts with "w" is??? LOL
When people say it's not Black music because of the many examples of non-black contributions, I would encourage them to look at what those musicians considered the origins of true jazz. Bix for example. Even after he was playing jazz, he would go to Black communities to hear them play, and he admitted he couldn't play "real jazz" like they were doing. Who started the cook-out. I love that.
@@joeschmoe6720 I can dig it, but respectfully disagree. I don’t think it’s orthodox, but it’s principles were established early on in a time when black and white were extremely separate. The way they were treated because of their blackness is the context in which they created Gospel, Blues, and Jazz. Not without influence from European music (Hayden), and other music happening in America at the time. But in my opinion that context is why they created the music the way they did, as an expression of they’re situation.
@@richardbogen77 yeahh, it was created by black people, but i dont think it should have been gatekeeped that much; for example miles davis used to throw shit at white people doing jazz just for being white and now people just catalogue jazz as black music, when there were many white artists who also contributed to what jazz is today, they just say its black music when color has nothing to do with it, yes u can understand the historical context of why jazz was made with black people, but that was only the start to something much more extense, but in my opinion as an artist i think art is not yours, it doesnt belong to anyone, art is free, meaning anyone can play it, listen it, or develop it into another sub genre.
@@alex-lr5yi Miles Davis played with alot of white musicians
I think there needs to be a distinction between the historical roots and cultural context of an art and the practice of the art and who can participate in the art. Because to say “jazz is Black music” I think in the sense of it originating with a Black and Creole culture and people in New Orleans is legit. It’s like saying a kimono is Japanese.
What people often hear though is “jazz is Black music (therefore other musicians are fakes or just appropriating it or can only experience it shallowly)” which is a completely different thing. That’s like someone saying “non-Japanese people wearing a kimono are bad” which most Japanese people don’t believe. Even designing or making a kimono isn’t something that only a Japanese person can do - but the kimono remains “Japanese” in the sense of the cultural background and history. And the better you understand that the better you can make a kimono!
The thing is that there is the case of stuff like the ODJB where someone who is outside takes some cultural or artistic thing and claims it is theirs originally, or reduces it to a commodity, which is real cultural appropriation. And that’s not cool. But in the modern times there are also people who don’t understand that culture and art is not a bounded thing, that it seeps out and spreads and changes everything around it. And sometimes in defense against the commodification and theft they have instead come back to the regressive idea that somehow only certain people should do certain things, and make a fuss about it.
And in reaction to this there is often a certain type of argument that culture or art belongs to everyone (and which it can in a sense, at least certain things like jazz or even the kimono) but when they say “it’s everyone’s” they are sometimes not understanding that even if it is, it still comes from this culture, it grows from this root historically.
Thank you for quite literally having the first sensible response in this section.
Creole is Spanish people born in America. There are plenty of white creoles. This is because there are white Spaniards. The facts are; The kimono is a Chinese garment that gained popularity and was adopted by the Japanese. The events that made a bulk of what different cultures are like today were only possible throughout historic events of trade, travel, and understanding similarities. Things like the blues and Latin music were being created and experimented on pretty much around the same time and therefore at the same time. Only later on was it possible for people to gather curiosity and experience for themselves what was unknown to them.
@@jxnglxst6874 What? Sit down. Creoles in New Orleans are not SPANISH PEOPLE LOL
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I don't claim to be an expert on the various creole cultures, but according to a couple books that I read prior to a recent trip to New Orleans, and any quick google search on the subject, there were certainly people who referred to themselves (and others referred to them as well) as creole who were of Spanish and French descent (especially from Quebec I think) with no African heritage. People would call them "white" today, but remember that most WASPS, Protestants of English descent, did not consider Spaniards and Italians to be of their race. Southern Europeans with "olive" skin especially were looked down upon and certainly not viewed as part of any "white" group. They were called "dark skinned" and "prone to criminal behavior". They tended to be Catholic (cause for suspicion amongst Protestants who thought Catholics to be overly permissive of sin/vice.) Just as I suspect that darker skinned creoles of mostly African heritage would not take kindly to being called "black", I also suspect that Spanish and French creoles would not consider themselves white. Further, WASPS would not have considered the Spanish and French creoles to be white. I'm kinda guessing at this though...
Well said! That analogy with Chinese food is spot on as well. That’s how I see hip hop and R&B too. Give credit where credit is due. Other folks came in later and added their ingredients into the pot but they didn’t invent what was already there!
That's why the blues and the rhythm are so important.
"Just because you contribute an ingredient to the pot doesnt mean you the one who started the dish" - patrick bartley
The pot in this case being the instruments themselves... oh wait...
@@terrapin323 "oh wait..." Hah! You thought you had a gotcha moment there, didn't you? Great! Look at this:
Where do the bananas that your grandma makes banana bread with come from? I can assure you now, they weren't grown and picked in the middle of Wisconsin. Is banana bread Hispanic because most of the North American bananas come from the Caribbean/Central/South America?
Alright, next one. Come on, then.
@@terrapin323YOU INSUFFERABLE BOZO!!
Stanley Crouch emote would go hard
Is water wet? Jazz belongs to everyone but it's essentially African-American and that's so important, especially in the context of the history of oppression. The fact that some of the greatest American culture came from black people should always be reiterated because it's one of the most powerful tools against the prejudice and the oppressors. I'm not American and I can only look at the situation from the outside. I feel like there is a history of white Americans taking black culture and rather than just participating in it (which is great in itself) they would try to whitewash it (Elvis is a perfect example as he came up at the time where there were many better black performers but he took their music and ran with it, is still seen as the king despite just being one of the many good performers at the time most of whom were black)
The most famous and successful musicians in the world are black. Stop perpetuating a destructive and divisive victimhood mentality...
Jazz is black music. Without the pot and the recipe new spices can't be thrown in.
Every instrument in a jazz ensemble was invented by white men. So that pot is pretty useless without the fire to cook on. Jazz is American music
@@Mr-Wonderful black american music aka bam.
Absolutely CRAZY how easy it is for people to hold onto essentialisms that will never make sense.
I think what also happens for a lot of people is they may not have a good understanding of how culture/ethnography is created, or they don’t have the vocabulary to describe it. Then they get stuck in that frame of reference that won’t be able to properly explain the context and reality of what’s going on.
wild, I had just watched this interview about a month ago. I think the angle you are taking is very nuanced and I appreciate you bringing light to this discussion. I think it's really interesting to watch these interviews from a different time in light of today's culture, it's very enlightneing, humbling, and reminds us of our humanity.
Spot on as always Patrick. And for me when I think of Stanley Crouch I can still hear him saying “Bird With Strings is Elevator music.” 🤭🤣🤣🤣 but this topic here he really got right.
I just learned why ragtime is called ragtime. I had two college courses on music history, one covering just 20th century music, and that point was never made.
I think your points apply to jazz, blues (and R&B), gospel, and hip-hop. This has been on my mind a lot lately - appropriation of black music by white Americans. I’m still working through it, but so far I’ve come up with “show respect for the genre”, which could take many forms, including not, you know, trying to steal it and call it your own. Rock, metal, EDM, and many other genres that have predominantly white musicians with unmistakable influences from black music, obviously. Entrepreneurial labels and musicians jumped on commercializing the roots of black music, and this is where the lack of respect comes in, because art is art. It’s the money and later fame involved that led to the exploitation of black music. And then what happened? More recently white label owners got certain entrepreneurial blacks to exploit their own music and this led directly to the devolution of mainstream hip-hop, for example. Now I’m ranting because the lack of respect over the past 100 years pisses me off.
Jazz was clearly influenced by european music, just like white rock bands were clearly influenced by.black artists. White and black influenced each other constantly over time, early hip hop and black Detroit techno was hugely influenced by kraftwerk and samples were all over the place. Does it make hip hop white.? No, but the influence is always there. There is no such thing of a pure black or pure white musical genre in the history of the 20th century american music, each ethnic group influenced the other and took some elements from a white or black tradition. The appropriation discourse is correct but it's more a rock n' roll thing, some scmbg wanted to make money with the new sound and promoted Elvis and others like the kings of r'n'r, basically stealing a new genre invented by African Americans, however this trend wasn't totally pervasive. I've never heard someone calling blues or rap music white and once a genre is out there you can give it your spin and create your variation and further contaminations, like Django Reinhardt that created gypsy jazz influenced by an American tradition. Everyone used elements of other ethnic groups to create and evolve a new musical language.
Believe me, before 1950 nobody was arguing that jazz was anything but black. White players were proud of their accomplishments but everybody knew where it came from. As for money and success, that’s another discussion.
If you watch my video, you'd see that's actually incorrect lol. Nick LaRocca is just one musician who had such delusions, unfortunately. But thank you, though.
Jazz is not only music , jazz is a way of life , and it don't mean a thing if ain't got that swing (that "black thing")
Brave subject, Patrick! This is my take as a somewhat educated consumer and still struggling practitioner of the art form.
Nicholas Payton coined Black American Music “BAM” as a replacement for “Jazz”, and I thought that may catch on, especially as he, Christian Scott ATunde Adjuah,and others continue to expand the music’s creative language and boundaries.
From my seat as a white-as-wonder-bread Ohio trumpet player, everyone from King Oliver and Louis to Freddy and Woody then Wynton to Ambrose were/are the most creatively personal improvising trumpet players.
Why? I think what Stanley Crouch started to say about deeply connecting to and feeling life, and wishing to relay their very intimate experiences and emotions, translating and infusing them through their horns forges the core of their sound and their artistic/expressive signature/dna/identity.
And yes, I love Tom and Chet and all, but the intensity of and risks taken in their harmonic development and complexity, their melodic phrasing and ideas, and the technical and physical pursuits as players simply don’t compare.
eh, it's very obvious that jazz is black music and i will never claim that it was non-black people that made jazz what it is, but diminishing (non-black) cats who had a more melodic, less technical style as being less creative or intimate is a faux pas
how is your argument consistent with players like lester young? they were one of the most sensitive players in history... every famous tenor sax player you could named idolized him, and they're a black player who doesn't fit the mold you're describing.
there are players that push new technical boundaries, and there are players that push boundaries with what already exists. we'll never cite chet for being someone that pushed new technical boundaries, but he definitely showed how beautiful "less is more" could be... same argument for davis vs. diz and any other "less technical" player you can think of.
Before Nicolas Payton, Freddie Hubbard {1970s}, suggested calling "JAZZ", "Black Classical Music" to define his compositions and create a name and category that we All, know where it came from and Why??? Never caught on outside of certain Jazz cliques also, I notice in the comments, that 'word' "BLACK" triggers some People!?!? A lot!🤔... Jis' Sayin' ...✊🏿💯✊🏿
Hello from Kansas City, Missouri Patrick. Great Video. Blues and Jazz are Black Music in that African Americans Originated them. The key word here is originated. Both African Americans and many people who are not African American have made significant statements within Jazz. In my humble opinion, the statements made by many of the artists who are not African American are much more than simply adding an ingredient to the pot. In fact, one Jazz Genre in particular is predominantly White or Other than Black. Specifically Third Stream Jazz. Also, some believe that the development of Jazz stopped in 1959. 1959 was a very important year for Jazz but, Jazz didn't stop that year. After 1959 came many Important Artists and Genres. In particular, Jazz Rock, Jazz Funk, Smooth Jazz, Acid Jazz and Jazz Hop. Thanks.
Everyone needs to get out of their head and get with what’s in their heart. Life is short, enjoy the things that make you happy.
Oh pleeze.
"Essentially". The essential character or nature of a person or thing. I think it's fair to say that without the existence of African American culture and the countless creative musicians it produced; the music we call "Jazz" simply would not exist. And that is something I don't even want to contemplate.
BTW Patrick. Saw you up at Port Townsend in July. You were FANTASTIC!
well according to Crouch, some people must be more 'human' than others, because HIS attitude about jazz put it in a box which Ken Burns was happy to live in. i'm not going to argue the point. black musicians started the pot and everybody contributed across the board.
but to continue that analogy, Crouch and Wynton put the lid on that pot and said 'that's done' basically and ignored a WHOLE lot of excellent artists and composers making GREAT music in the 60's and 70s especially. to me jazz is a questing, restless and individual expression of self, not 'which artists from the Sony/CBS catalogue can i cover today'. just thinking of black musicians, jazz is Lester Young, Bird, Miles, Mingus, Monk, Coltrane (until the end mind you), Ornette, Sun Ra, the AACM, BAG, John Carter, Bobby Bradford, Cecil Taylor and Braxton. but as far as jazz education went unless you had a really open mind, the artists and music covered in Burns' documentary became the MSMs definition of jazz. so to me a lot of that really adventurous spirit was lost in a forest of stylists playing the 'approved' canon.
That ossification, to shut out jazz fusion, was such an interesting thing. I hope it can be turned around, modern jazz heads seem to be going some way to that. I don’t want it to turn into classical with prescribed “improvisations” that are really just canned solos. I want true improv, true fusion (jazz was always fusion anyway), true expression, forever.
@@kaitlyn__L i can mostly agree with this- for me true jazz is 'a fusion' of all of its influences whatever those are. keep the pot bubbling and keep adding more cool stuff to it is what i say. my statement was more in support of the avant garde side of things with Ornette kicking it off and Trane, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor and the AACM continuing the adventurous and original feeling that i feel jazz was based on. but absolutely fusion and funk belong in that pot just as well.
100% agree on the fact that Wynton is pretty ignorant with the way he disses all modern jazz, but...
Side note, I feel like I've felt a bit similar being a west coaster and a huge fan of west coast jazz. Bebop has a religious following, but anything cool jazz is ignored and people don't seem to care about as much... Yeah, everyone will admit that Chet, Getz, Brubeck, etc. are fantastic, but i feel like nobody will say "I want to sound like them!" in comparison to "I want to sound like bird/cannonball/trane!"
@@okayfine6342 goddd I -adore- Brubeck, I’d love to sound like him for sure
Even a deaf and a blind man would say Jazz can be invented ONLY from the black (american) sensitivity.
The Chinese food analogy is not a very good one, because Chinese history in general was its own history for thousands of years before America ever existed. Having stated that, in fact, "Chef Andy Kao claims to have developed the original Chinese-American orange chicken recipe at a Panda Express in Hawaii in 1987", so in fact, "Orange Chicken" was created, according to Andy Kao's claim, in the United States. He was born in China and raised in Hawaii.
4:50 Spot on
There’s no way you can have this conversation without mentioning Louis Armstrong. He did not invent jazz, but he pointed jazz into the direction that it is even to this day. Jazz has a blues tonality. He gave jazz it lilt. It doesn’t matter who created jazz. It’s definitely a human thing but it’s blasphemous to not mention the father of modern American music. Louis Armstrong.
So, is Bill Evans the Eminem of Jazz Music?
‼️
That's why I like Nicholas Payton's conception of Black American Music. Jazz is part of the BAM continuum, but that's not how jazz is taught in university. Jazz owes lineage to a lot of West African rhythmic conceptions--but guess what's ALWAYS left out of jazz pedagogy? You'd think that jazz is built solely on scales and theory if you studied it in university. Interesting how theory is systematic and rhythm and pulse are just "something you feel." Imagine if that paradigm was flipped. Imagine if we respected the BAM continuum and said that you gotta dip your toe in Blues all the way to Rap and Hip Hop to truly understand this music we call jazz. Would those naysayers stop with the "(c)rap" BS? Imagine if we prioritized rhythm instead of scales. Just a thought, who knows--right ;)
I never liked the idea of "BAM" as it pertains to the idea of the erasure of "jazz", and I actually talk briefly about my issues with some of Nick's ideas in this stream, but I also acknowledge that those are HIS opinions, and should be treated as such - just like mine are my own, as well. My issue with the pervasiveness of the "BAM" ideology is how it's made everyone so afraid to talk about these subjects unless you're overtly on the side of the "BAM" ideology. I want discussion, not conformity. We've just immediately accepted that his word must be the truth about our music, and I personally cannot wholeheartedly agree with an ideology that states "jazz died in 1959".
Life is nuanced, and so is this topic. I don't have enough time to go into it here about my thoughts, so I'll have to clip that part of the stream, or you can see it over on Patreon.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I was talking about the frustration in how jazz is usually taught in university, and how many jazz fans are eager to call rap music "crap" music. There's a lot left off the table with how jazz is taught, and for "non drummers" especially--that's usually the rhythmic element. Apologies for narrowing the discussion, my intent was to investigate what many accept as truth. I like the idea of music as a lineage--where you taste everything instead of going in with blinders. That's the part of BAM that I like.
@@pickinstone I'm not in disagreement about rhythm being deeper than what's taught. I talk about this nearly every day, actually. I disagree with how people have run with "BAM" and made their own custom interpretations of an already deeply personal (and flawed) opinion of not only this music, but the culture that created it. It's the opposite of nuance. I think people either have forgotten, or just never read, the original blog post that Nick wrote in 2011. Because if they did, and still agree with everything he said, they're either afraid to disagree with him because of his skin color, or just on the fringe of something else entirely.
But, again, I just wish everyone simply took what he said as an opinion, and not turned this whole thing into such a weird cult-like phenomenon that's consumed an entire decade of jazz musicians. I worry about the students that come up in this and also feel like they must simply conform to this new nomenclature and aren't allowed to think against it, out of fear of being labeled a racist.
I'm conflicted about the BAM movement. I think the core of it's thesis of centering and properly attributing these musical traditions as black art forms is really valid. But it doesn't actually address how we can move away of elite institutions back to it's roots.
Also, it ignores the fact that genres exist for a reason. Jazz while understanding it's problematic name and whatnot serves as a shorthand for the musical lineage of Louie armstrong, Charlie Parker, etc. Not all black music draws lineage from this line.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I read the blog post, and agree with parts of what he said. Didn't mean to spark controversy. I'm a teacher myself (not music) and I talk to my music inclined students about you all the time. I remember that you did a video on hip hop vocalizations translating to jazz phrasing--and I wish that type of awareness of the shared lineage was taught in college.
When I was coming up in college, it very much was the whole "jazz ended in 1959" vibe--even though many of us students were digging into Robert Glasper and Roy Hargrove at the time. I think colleges still cling to the whole chord scale theory stuff almost at the erasure of rhythm and pulse--and THAT's what makes jazz so infectious to so many of us, that DANCE.
Anyway, I was scared that I picked a fight with you--because I consider you to be a master musician who is infecting younger musicians to the music while keeping us old hats grooving too ;)
You must know, Mister Bartley, that I highly respect you and that I am not an authority on jazz but as a jazz player and enthusiast I would offer my point of view and see if you agree with it or not.
I would say that many elements of jazz music are "white", like the ditties, folk songs and broadway tunes that have become jazz songs. But I think what makes jazz different to other styles of music and what makes it jazz is something that probably cannot be put into words. You might want to call it phrasing or a conception of performing a melody (and of course improvisation). So, the way I see it, the ingredients for jazz music are for a big part white but what makes them jazz is the cooking. Maybe you could say the raw chicken filet is white but the recipe for the orange chicken and the way it's cooked and served is black. I feel that this goes along with your analogy but I would still like to know if you think I've got things wrong or not.
Best regards
Paul
That ending gave a whole new meaning to the song “We didn’t start the fire”😂👏🏾
“Who brought the pot?”😆
Jazz is the embodiment of the idea of the ‘American melting pot’ a mixture of the musical ideas and styles from different cultures coming together to create something greater than the sum of its parts
Nowadays we have to pretend like every race exists in a vacuum with no external influences. But I guess people always have to gatekeep...
Read a really interesting book recently called 'Latin Jazz' by Chris Washburne, discussing Latin American influence on jazz in New Orleans and reasons for its omission from jazz history. Crazy how much of a complicated, melting pot jazz is!
What is 'Latin' Jazz???? What makes it "LATIN", perhaps Italy, Spanish ??? Where did it come from, EXACTLY??? It's NOT That complicated when credit is accurately🪘 placed where it's Due!! ✊🏿💯✊🏿
There are many different forms of jazz that developed over time, but for the basic argument, one should focus on the first form, which likely/arguably is ragtime. It obviously has a European structure to it. What makes jazz distinct, is its syncopation, and even jazz syncopation, may be of a mixture of African and European influences. Musicologist would do well to do extensive study of the differences and similarities of African Diaspora music forms like those in Cuba especially, but also in Brazil and Haiti, and the traditional way the rhythms and songs that accompany these rhythms are played and sung in Africa? Bata drumming in Cuba is very different from it in Africa. The songs sung that accompany the rhythms played on these drums are also different, based on the few examples I have heard. There is what seems a closeness of the rhythms of many of the island nations of the Caribbean - the Calypso common to many Islands, the Bomba & Plena of Puerto Rico, and Merengue of the Dominican Republic, to name a few of the more well known rhythms from the Caribbean. These rhythm, to my ear, have a similarity to the Afro-Cuban rhythm Iyesa - sometimes written as yesa. I believe its parent form is still played in Nigeria, but how long might these rhythms last in their forms in Africa? They my go through changes as time passes, and so it is important that any changes in them be documented, so the history can be preserved. I'm not trained in music theory to any degree. Learned to play percussion instruments from instructional vhs tapes, dvd disc, and youtube videos, and a few lessons from actual musicians who were accomplished musicians in these styles/genres. Over the years, of what I have heard, that is said to be a distinct difference between European and African music is, the heavy emphasis on up-beats, in African music. Maybe some more knowledgeable people, will correct anything that may be incorrect and expand on my comments. For me, when I think of jazz, Bebop and Swing is what comes to mind, but especially bebop. Chucho Valdés is for me, the best musician who exhibits the blending of African and European music forms. His performances especially those with American musicians like Winton Marsalis, are incredibly beautiful and fascinating in art and technique.
MY GLORIOUS KING PATRICK NEVER FAILS.
Video was amazing everything you said is what needs to be brought up more instead of these false narratives. Extremely well said Pat short and extremely to the point simply amazing. Much love from Texas!
It's fun to talk about the origins, and I'd agree the first inceptions could likely be attributed to black artists, although we truly have no idea who's hot licks in which scene would be defined as the fist spark, but nevertheless, jazz has always grown and formed with and by folks of every ethnicity. It's possibly the most truly American music. 0:40 I'm dead 🤣
It's important to acknowledge history but at some point, music will diverge into different forms and styles of the original, you can't steal sound because it has already existed since the dawn of the universe.
So…who did start the cookout/fire? Can we even know the answer to that, given the music wasn’t recorded back then? I’m not even sure the question makes sense. New genres evolve out of pre-existing ones.
dodges the attitude...
Black people created this particular music, thanks to these pioneers and to god for this gift he made ❤ and the whole World has make it growth. Thanks to Africa for the rythms and the spirit, thanks Europe for the instruments, may god bless you All, especially you american people who seems to have a lot of problems to fix in your society... 🕊️
“What did he sayyyyyy?” Emote.
I took a really awesome jazz history course in college over a winter term, I think about half of it was Ken Burn's Jazz.
@@joeschmoe6720Why are you in nearly ALL of these replies? And you just brought polarity politics out of nowhere, for no reason. Usage of the words "woke" and "liberal" show exactly what your mentality is, and how you can't expect anyone to have a neutral, good faith conversation with you when you open up like that.
Watching this video has made me think I actually need to learn _a lot_ more about the history of the music.
The origins are black and that's that. Congo square.
Good stuff Patrick.
Jazz was started, as far as I understand, in the black section of New Orleans. Soon it spread to the Creole section and then everywhere else. So jazz was created by blacks. But that doesn’t mean that the music itself is black. Blues, Gospel - the music is very close to the African roots - very little European influence. But jazz - hybrid from the start. It’s like the way Black people heard all the different music around them. So I would say - jazz is a hybrid music created by blacks expressing how they see the world around them.
NO, ... Jazz is using instruments besides the 'voice' to express something, it is work songs, Spirituals, Da Blues, harmonic poetry, philosophy and imagination!! Saying it was created by "Blacks", BUT.. it's Not Black, ... is de facto 'plagiarism' and or trademark infringement... Which is how white caucasians/europeans traditionally end up with All the copyrights and publishing credit!! Jis' Sayin'...✊🏿💯✊🏿
@@davidwicks9538 first of all - if it was created by blacks - than it actually belongs to its creators. You surely know that the music from its beginning was hybrid - it absorbed many European elements. If you take out all the European elements from jazz - you are indeed left with the blues, gospel and other exclusively black styles. Just sayin’…
Watched This In his stream this had to be one of the funniest bartley steam
Not me watching this as I'm eating orange chicken 🙈
Stanley Crouch is a gatekeeper. He knows that he has to stay political correct. The book Blues People by Amiri Baraka points out the facts that jazz music is African. The only contribution that the Original Dixie Land band was they recorded the first commercial record . As Max Roach would make the distinction that this improvise music is Black American Classical music. My only problem with Stanley Crouch is he can be very opinionated in his view regarding this topic. He was part of an open forum with Mtume and the subject was Miles Davis and his stance that Miles was playing bs music in his later years. Mtume was saying that Miles music still was African American improvise music but was approaching it through another direction that still came from the prospective of the Black American experience. Nice topic.
ngl
based asf
this guy spittin FIRE both on sax and while talking outta bros lungs
Anyone that listen to their music from the furtherest would come to the conclution that they own no muscial genre at all. They have no even advanced any the of the music they stole. They sitting there all on youtube still trying to make sense of Jazz saying they are teaching it.
Not a fan of Stanley Crouch but I agree with his and your point on this for sure.
Let's consider the following as well. No music nor musical style is ever really created until .." it is written",, because only then, can it be truly passed on down the generations of all peoples. So let's consider that. Great conversation Pat! practice hard and be safe, love yah bro!
That's not true, many musics have been passed down as aural tradition for hundreds of years. So what If it can't be read on paper and widely disseminated?
@@keegansteenkamp8940 I partially agree, but for example, Mozart's "The Magic Flute" wouldn't have the same widespread dissemination today if it hadn't been written down. While passing songs orally or through instrumental tradition persists and is valuable, modern versions of these original tunes would likely differ significantly without a written and completed Original composition.
And they would certainly be lost in time without the inventions of modern recording devices, which were scant in Mozart's time. Otherwise, It's like playing the Telephone Game aka secret whispers, with the classics. To be Legitimate in this case, means to be written or not to be.
It doesn’t matter man. There is no “start” to music, especially when referring to a term used for marketing (in this case, a genre). This music is a conglomeration of european harmony and instruments, African rhythms, American melting pot cultural movements, and a whole bunch of genius people. And it CONTINUES to change. To say that a certain group of people “brought the pot” is (in my opinion) placing far too much emphasis on an arbitrary “start” date and “inventor”. It’s not acknowledging at all that the music continues to and has always evolved, and it frankly feels a little bit entitled.
On a slightly different note, but one that has appropriate parallels: Maybe you would be more inclusive, more historically accurate, and less combative as an advocate for the music if you would consider thinking of yourself less as “black” and more as “human”?
In The U.S.A. it DOES matter!! That's why the term "BLACK" Music was attached to the art form {circa. 1960s}! Btw; lets NOT forget about "Race Music" and where that term originated🤨!?!? The previous BlackAmericanDOS musicians and artist could see, and predicted, the "Credit and Profit", for 'Originating' and advancing the music style, would be Transferred to white caucasians et al. if NOT directly addressed, "Your" comment justifies their concerns!! Jazz or any Black Music Style is more than the 'instruments🎷' or names of🎶 notes!! Yes; the appreciation of Jazz Music is for "humans" or any entity that is affected by it, But the creation of the Art, and the 'TRUTH' is another matter!! Jis' Sayin' ... ✊🏿💯✊🏿
@@davidwicks9538 I think there are two things to unpack here. There’s the issue of the need to label music arbitrarily for capitalistic marketing purposes, and then there is the blatant racism.
First the capitalism. “Race music” and “black music” were terms created to market the music to a certain community or (you might argue) segregate it from the white community. See my point above… if we were to actually view the music for what it was, we could see past this blatantly arbitrary label. I do not believe it’s any one person or group’s business to be naming these things, especially when I don’t believe there was a definitive inventor or date of invention. I mean if Patrick here wants call his personal music that he wrote “black music” that’s awesome! But to call all music that current falls under the “jazz” label “black music” is frankly ridiculous.
Next the racism. I don’t understand why we feel the need to prolong these terms. They were hateful from the start and they continue to become less and less accurate as “jazz music” grows in popularity globally and accrues influence from ALL cultures.
Anyway, I can understand the reasoning for calling stuff “race music” if it was actually the recordings marketed that way (although I in no way condone it.) And I can get behind calling certain music “black music” if it was recorded/played by black artists/performers, but I simply think it’s putting far too much emphasis on race in the modern world. Can’t we move past these labels and just make music?
@eliyost6538 I just completed a comment, I just saw this video today , I give 'some' examples and context as to where these 'terms' originate and Why? I'll just say, to accuse anyone of playin' a 'race' card when it's dealt from a 'Racist' deck is evasive at best!! Jazz for conscious people from it's Culture is NOT limited to entertainment, it's also a social statement. Ya Dig???✊🏿💯✊🏿
@@davidwicks9538 Using your analogy, I’m arguing that we must remove the race cards from the deck. The deck has been around since the beginning of human culture. All of our culture. The entire deck is not soured. It’s just those cards.
When you try to understand these things through analogies and arbitrary terms, it can pigeon-hole your perspective and keep you from seeing a bigger picture. The term “jazz” stood for a cultural movement against racial injustice for a time, but the music that it accompanied has grown past that point, just as society continues to grow. Again, I’m completely open to people calling the specific music that they make “black music” if it has that cultural representation to them (although I still think that’s putting far too much emphasis on race), but to take such a broad swath of music and call it “black music” is totally absurd and prolongs racial divide
Great video… and I love that “stank face”!!! lol I did like his answer though, Jazz is human music… I mean what a great answer!
Jazz is black music that reaches everyone and everyone participates in it.
Our desire for white approval and not to offend white people, who constantly obfuscate the truth, makes us jump through hoops. We are afraid to say the truth simply and succinctly.
I challenge us to own our creative expressions without the extra explanations.
One Love
This whole argument has been detrimental to the music over the last 30 years IMO and Crouch (one of my favorite reviewers when I first got into jazz as a teenager by the way although I didn't always agree with him) is partially to blame. When I first started listening to jazz I listened to almost no white musicians and it took me awhile to appreciate even the most famous white jazz musicians like Brubeck and Evans, etc. I agree with the spirit of the statement "Jazz is black music", but I like to be very precise when I use racial terms and it is not a precise statement because music has no racial component. It has a very strong cultural component which has a geographic component, however. Didn't the early black jazz musicians evolve from the "society bands" they played in? Yes, they also played in bars and houses of "ill repute" in Storyland, but the music they played in all venues and to their various audiences was related and the music they played in one venue influenced the music they played in others. If we talk about the "proto-jazz" composers there is clearly European influence... Scott Joplin? Jelly Roll? I doubt Jelly Roll Morton would take kindly to being called "black", and nor did "white" people think that Italians were of the same race in 1910. Various "white" peoples viewed themselves as completely different races and certainly had different cultures, including very different musical cultures. Jazz was built on a foundation of western music, by black men with deep roots in the U.S. south, who absorbed a wide range of musical influences, including "white" American, and European. They heard just about every kind of music in existence at the time and this IMO inspired the "invention" of jazz (evolution seems more accurate). New Orleans was the perfect breeding ground for a new musical tradition because it was a major port, was ethnically diverse, because it was in the South, perhaps even because of the vice, and because there was a strong European influence (including the Creole culture). The rural southern musical traditions, including early blues, trad "anonymous" songs, hillbilly music which was influenced by Irish folk, etc... were also strong influences. Why wasn't jazz "invented" in central Virginia, or in Boston or NYC? There were plenty of black men in those cities in the 1910s. The answer is that it isn't a "black" music. It was developed in certain places that had particular cultural influences... by southern black men exposed to classical music, trad negro spirituals, Catholic masses, protestant worship songs, popular "society" music, perhaps even an Italian tarantella etc.. It's progress after its development continued to be "black" (since we are using that term), on balance, but was obviously strongly influenced by "white" (what about other races?) people as well. Obviously today's jazz is very different from what Buddy Bolden and King Oliver may have played, what Louis Armstrong and Sidney Bechet played and has absorbed an even wider range of influences. Even Stanley Crouch acknowledged this implicitly by generally denigrating famous white jazz musicians... if the music went in a "white" direction he tended to think less of it, so clearly that jazz wasn't "black" to Crouch and, at least when I was younger, I tended to like the music that Crouch liked and Wynton and the LCJO and everything that swung hard (and still enjoying Patrick Bartley to this day!). In sum, I don't see "black" or "white" as genuine cultural groups so I think it's disingenuous to say that jazz is "black". I think geography and culture are more important than most people do. I think it would be much more insightful in a musical sense to refer to the range of cultural influences of the specific men who "invented" it in specific geographical locations, however... and many were "black" and others were "creole", many of them were influenced by music that no one would call "black", and even a few "white" people made some direct contributions at some point in the process. If we have to place a large bet in hard cash on the "correct" answer to the question is jazz "black" or "white" I'll go with the former, but I think it's a unsophisticated question to ask in the first place.
Yes doesn’t dodge the question but dodges the Attitude 100%🔥🔥🔥🔥. People always trying to start fights
Shoot us the snip! 😂😂😂
Honestly, at the time white people were still being heavily guided by Europe. Opera, Classical and other genres developed in Europe. If I had no context and heard Jazz I would never assume they made it. The style is almost entierly different. To your analogy, that's like seeing white people complain a little salt is too spicy and then trying orange chicken. The flavor profile is so incredibly different they'd be the last group on my mind tbh. If someone stood up to claim it, I'd have to ask their process of creating it before I believed them. Especially if I was just cut off from that type of food entirely. I'd need to see the map from boiled, unsalted chicken to orange chicken.
That's a great analogy though. Wow. I think the issue for me isn't that they claim it, but rather that upon receiving evidence that they didn't create Jazz they refuse to hear it and ignore all contrary information. That's the annoying part. If I went to China (or where it originates) and they showed me hundreds of years of Orange Chicken traditions I wouldn't tell them they're all liars because Johnny swore he made it 10 years ago. That seems a bit extreme.
I've argued about this and other genres, like Hip Hop for example, and I've come to the conclusion that people really just don't want the things they enjoy to be related to Black Americans. At all. They don't want to enjoy what we make so they'd rather make up lore where someone else did it.
The story about the rag over his fingers so nobody would copy is hilarious. Unfortunate how it turned out for him, legacy-wise, but that is so funny. I'm sure he was a great guy to hang out with.
you hit it on the head.
If jazz is 'black' music, can we also say that it is male? 😮
Stanley began his response with a "deflection/Dodge" of the question!!! All "JAZZ" music is 'human' before 1960🤨. Where Jazz comes from Exactly is debatable, But ... somewhere, in what is Now the american South, is close to accurate, New Orleans?? perhaps. Who recorded it First, is NOT positive proof of it's "CREATORS" and their location, however, the style and the energy of the Art suggest it has a Black/African 'attitude', "Swing", and 'lineage' !?!? Jazz is NOT limited to notes🎶 or playing in key🎼. Jazz music is an integral part of the evolution of U.S. "BlackAmericanDOS Culture" from field hollers, Spirituals, Da Blues, Hand Clappin', 🪘to Be Bop, Telepathy, Ingenuity and beyond! The distinction of "Black Music" was developed to "document" by BlackDOS, when, where, and WHO this Art Form was 'Created' by.. The comments here verify how various attempts to Plagiarize the Art, reduce and eliminate the BlackAmericanDOS significance, then 'transfer' the credit and profit to observers et al. made this distinction necessary!! Jis' Sayin' ... ✊🏿💯✊🏿
Maybe ODJB did to jazz what Taco Bell did to Mexican food?
Is classical music white? Is an equally important question
I love my house. It was built in 1900, around the time jazz was born. It took architects and engineers to conceive it, and a team of bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, roofers and plasterers to build it. Over the decades the people who lived in it engaged new craftspeople to make changes, to add bits, take bits away, and improve and updates things. 124 years later, it doesn't really seem very relevant what the race, class, nationality, age or gender of those people was. What is relevant is that together, they built a beautiful house. Jazz is also a beautiful house. It's a place where strangers can meet and play the stars out of the heavens needing neither written parts nor rehearsals.
Cajuns "started the pot" as you put it. They built the city, the culture, and the music. So the first jazz musicians look like Gambit from X-men
so the answer is Yes ?
for me it is so...
As Black as our 44th president.
I think the idea that Jazz is "BLACK Music" is silly. Jazz has to be realized on something. An instrument. There is no jazz instrumentalist within the Jazz genre (or any western genre for that matter) that isn't playing the music on European concert instruments or an evolution of European concert instruments (e.g., Upright bass ---> Electric bass guitar): Miles played TRUMPET, Coltrane played SAXOPHONE, Art Tatum played PIANO ... all of these have their origin in the European concert hall. I won't even go into tuning systems and temperament ...
Ah, I guess the guitar itself, drums, and cymbals are also all European innovations? 😃
You all need to come up with something different besides this instrument analogy. What about the singers? Even if we include instruments (which makes no sense), it still is incorrect that they are "all playing European instruments". Instruments are but an ingredient to the dish, maybe even the pot itself, that black folks started back in the 1880s and 90s. Your history research will tell you so.
I'm seeing a lot of people opt for a nationalistic or humanistic position- like li'l bro, did you not listen to what the man just said?
Ignoring history isn't nuanced or progressive, it's narrow-minded and self-serving.
Let's say you drew a fire picture, and a museum wants to buy it.
The curator comes up to the both us and asks, "Who made this? I'd like to pay them 800 million dollars."
I cut in before you and say, "Oh, every human being in my country made this piece because art is inherently a human activity and art is a reflection of material conditions."
Y'see how that's wrong?
One can acknowledge the sociological impact of a given thing without erasing the history of it.
this analogy is tricky because of provenance. if you want to talk about a Billy Strayhorn composition that's got a clear source so that's easy.
but to sum up jazz in that analogy, would jazz be jazz without the harmony? no. would jazz be jazz without the rhythm? again, no. yet one came from Europe and the other came from Africa. i can fully acknowledge that African slaves appropriated European harmony with their sense of adventurous rhythm and melody to create the frame and the canvas and the basic structure of the painting but there WERE lots of contributors of all shades and types. the guiding force was indeed the black experience but others contributed in significant enough ways that, were their contributions removed, it wouldn't be the same painting.
@@joeschmoe6720 agreed 100% on this. late Trane, Sun Ra, Art Ensemble, AACM in general, BAG, John Carter and Braxton were all honoring the pushing of the envelope in jazz to new amazing directions and laying the foundations for further creative music exploration. and the white jazz musicians were more tame, with a few notable exceptions in the 50's like Tristano, Warne Marsh, Konitz etc. and later in the 60s with Paul Bley and Jimmy Giuffre among others. interesting to compare how Europe itself provided impetus to the creative music scene by the later 60's as well - we do get revolutionary work from the European improvised music community with Derek Bailey and Peter Brötzmann not mention the Dutch improv music scene. although quite a lot of that wouldn't be classified as jazz by many folks.
@Skizze37 Exactly.
@@scottr.looney1774 It is equally impossible that Europe has zero influence from the rest of the known world at the time of each major "classical" period of music - yet, we still call it European classical music. It doesn't matter what influences came into it, because we aren't talking about what it sounds like, or any of the qualities of the music. If Trane wrote a song that had influences from Africa, India, and Japan, we wouldn't say the music came from those countries, we say it was INFLUENCED by those countries.
No. We say it came from Trane. Because he wrote it. He didn't deny the influences, or what helped to create it.
But black people were the first to PUT TOGETHER those influences in a form that could be recognized as jazz. Why is this so hard to even recognize?
Why is everyone acting like we're saying jazz has no other influences? We have NO issue talking about European music this way. You have to realize how this sounds to a group of people who have needed to prove themselves for hundreds of years due to the circumstances we've been put in.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic i completely and totally acknowledge the fact that black people were the first to create the music we call jazz. for me that's never been in question. i do feel that jazz has more varied influences from other cultures than blues or gospel. if i came across with too much of a sense of 'well, actually' and denying the source, that was NOT my intent.
All American music is black music
A History of Jazz by Ken Burns is GOLDEN! Congo Square, LA is where it all began.
New Orleans, but yeah
Respectfully, to even entertain that absurd idea is moronic.
Love it Patrick! @patrickbartleymusic
What are your thoughts on every time Wynton and Branford are asked about #bam they start naming their favorite Monteverdi madrigals or how it really SOUNDS like Greensleeves if you listen closely...
Sidney Bechet is one of the closest to THE ROOT and he said in Treat it Gentle "Jazz, that's a name the white people have given to the music"
Yo what platform do you stream on?
youtube - his past streams are private but available on patreon
Johann Sebastian Bach :)
I think Stanley Crouch has some questionable takes but he cooked here.
Jazz feels to me like the need to feel freedom and community. We all feel that unless we are psycho's! ❤
1:05 Lmao
Just like America where jazz was fully invented and realized I feel it is a melting pot of influences that are black, white, jewish and even eastern asian. From Impressionism with Debussy and Satie (both white) who were influenced by European music along with Asian influences and using pentatonic and whole tone scales, upper harmonic extensions etc.
George Gershwin was white although from Jewish lineage. He had a huge influence and hand in the evolution early jazz (although composed; but they say composition is slow improvisation!)
Many composers of the great American songbook were white (and some jewish) and without that jazz would not be what it has been for the last 90 years. Many white and black artists relied and continue to rely on these standards as a teaching method for learning as well as a platform for further harmonic exploration.
Bill Evans was a major force in mid century jazz, furthering the evolution of harmonic technique.
of course jazz is black music from blues, to ragtime, stride and all the amazing trailblazers, players, composers and improvisers that have come and gone. But just like what makes America great, jazz is one of the truly invented art forms from America, developed by everyone in a great combination and collaboration. Jazz is a living breathing art form. It was not static 90 years ago nor is it now. Because of that I personally don’t feel it is fair to attribute it to one race and the inherent beauty of the art form relies on the fusion.
I feel the obsession with race is a USA thing... Regardless, ima keep lovin jazz music and calling myself dizzy gil online 😁
Im from the other side of the world and so white im basically pink, to the point they falled me majin buu in school lol
Doesnt matter, grew up idolizing iverson, samuel jackson, dizzy, jimi hendrix, and since youtube became so massive ive come to see all this black/white stuff... As if gravity was white people stuff bc newton discovered it??
I can bet the creoles and slaves that started playing the blues in usa never thought " ye ima play the blues bc im black".. they couldve been green and if they had the blues theyd played them anyway
Jazz was created in early 1800 in New Orleans by African Americans.
Hi Patrick, two things:
1) orange chicken is possibly the absolute worst corollary you could use for your example. I’ve lived in China for 11 years and nowhere have I ever found or eaten orange chicken or anything close to it. A quick google search shows that it was invented in 1987 in Hawaii for Panda Express, an Americanized or at best Chinese American fusion restaurant. Not authentic, not traditional, not a good example.
2) the title of the video and the point you are making are so unrelated, and also unrelated to Crouch’s position. Yes, the fire and the base of jazz music were absolutely started by black American musicians. Is there anyone who disputes that now? But there are people who say it is a black music, not a human or global or multicultural music (we are talking about at this point in time, not in the early days), and that anyone who plays or learns it is engaging in disrespectful cultural appropriation etc etc. I don’t think you or Crouch would agree with that?
But you can use the same argument that any music played in 12tet on western instruments (pre jazz) is white music as in "starting the fire".
No. Y'all need to stop with these instrument analogies. You all miss the point so bad it's annoying me to nausea.
Instruments are TOOLS, not styles of music. What does it take for y'all to get this through your heads? Classical music doesn't even follow this same argument you're bringing up. The instrument =/= the music. Don't be obtuse.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Certain instruments were made for certian types of music. Pipe organ was made to complement church hymns. Guitar developed from medieval european lute music. Jazz did not come out of thin air and this is not even talking about the instruments or system of tuning the instruments. It came from its influences which came from genres influenced by European church music. Like essentially all western genres as we know today. Yes jazz musicians, blues musicians were black people in the start. But the musical theory of tonality and modes were already realized in ancient Greece (and other ancient civilizations). The modes for example even Plato wrote about them in his texts before Jesus Christ was born. But neither do we call Gregorian hymns "White music". For example alot of early jazz and it presuccessors took influence from hymns, marching bands, classical music in addition to the blues and ragtime.
@@sieni221 Well, Jesus (if he existed), and the Greeks, weren't even white, so I find it funny when people from like northern England try to claim them as being hallmarks of their ancestry. Lol.
There's so much to address here it's not even worth it if you want to look at things in such a facetious way.
Let's just start saying everything started at one atom, and so it doesn't matter what anyone does, nothing matters, we're all the same.
That's the type of logic everyone wants to move towards. No one even wants to talk about the fact that cymbals don't come from Europe, and neither do certain drums. They don't want to talk about north African influences in Spanish, Greek, and French musical styles.
ニックラロッカはインチキ中のインチキミュージシャン。
俺たちはデタラメをやっていると言いながら、譜面通りの演奏しかできなかった。そういう男が最初のジャズレコーディングと言うだけで語り継がれると言うのはどうかな？
それでもビックスのようなグレートなミュージシャンがカバー下おかげで生き残っていると言うのなら、それはそれで事実である。
Black is English, so no.
Jazz and zydeco are more creole and indigenous than anything.
Black is a word we should never use because it indicates an African presence in our culture which is false.
Creole Mardi Gras jazz country music is Moorish.
The guitar is a Moorish instrument called guitara Morisca.
Blues in spanish is called La murria.
Where would Jazz be without "white" marketing?
NGL, Stanley Crouch saying that Jazz is a "human music" honestly pissed me off. There is this vicious attempt to erase anything that Black people do and attribute it to colonizers who turn around and say "you have no culture. You have no history, We took you out of the jungle and civilized you"
Well, if you take a look at the rest of the interview, you'll see, in much clarity, that Stanley is doing the exact opposite of this. I show the rest of the interview on the stream. There is an art to talking to people like Charlie Rose, especially on TV in 1992.
I think it's important to thoroughly investigate things before committing to a reaction alone.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Thanks for responding! I have seen the interview in question. I guess we have different take aways from it or maybe I'm misremembering with Stanley said later. But this erasure of Black people from the culture we make has been on my mind since undergrad (Jazz Studies / Anthro) and honestly I wanted to research it for a PhD but thought better of it.
And again, I'm totally willing to concede that I misunderstood or forgot what Stanley said but the phenomenon still exists. There's whole books on how Jazz is america's music and I think that should be wholly rejected.
@@WilliamCarterII Well, jazz is American music because it's from America, not Africa. The problem with saying that, of course, is that it attracts racists who flock to this fact and use it as a dogwhistle, which then makes others (including black folk) believe that this MUST be what that phrase means - erasure of black folks. But, I think, the sooner we can understand that the concept of "blackness" is an American idea, and that black folks can still have ownership over the impetus for creating jazz, the sooner we can have a more, and much needed, nuanced view on the complicated and mixed history of jazz.
I don't think we should spend as much time getting upset over those who would seek to blatantly hijack, or simply misunderstand in their ignorance, the history of our music and culture; I prefer to spend time diving as deep into the history as possible and facing the realities of a nuanced sequence of events, free of any polarized lean.
But every time I've gone this direction in public, I've been called a co*n for it, or told I have "stockholm syndrome".
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Sad to see you journey down the sad race rabbit hole. Your music is incredible. Absolutely remarkable. Your opinions on race and white people "erasing" black folks, is just plain sad and wrong. The more people push the "blacks did this, whites did this" narrative, there will never be unity. I wish you well, Patrick.
I have to say I took the opposite view - that Crouch was saying we are all equally human - ethnicity is irrelevant and the music comes from human experience. I didnt think the intention was to erase the African-American element. I'm from the age before internet and the first jazz records I heard were Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, Dave Brubeck - it was only when I listened to earlier jazz and more jazz over the decades that I could see the history of the music and how important African-American musicians were in early jazz. It's a bit like ignoring the history of rap because there's Eminem - he clearly didn't invent it but IMO he has flow and his stuff definitely comes from his human experience but just as with jazz, if I know the history, I know that rap isn't 'white music' and you could never say that the African-American roots of it is not relevant. As an Aussie of Asian background (the Chinese dish analogy gave me a chuckle), may be way off but that's how I see it. Music is a creative endeavour of humans and over time, many, many brilliant musicians have contributed to the pot but the question of who started the fire is significant.
Human being music imo, from red hearts ❤️🔥🎷🕊️
I, too, wish we were all just walking bodies of skeletal muscle and exposed nerves - but since we aren't, we have to acknowledge and accept the fact that we all have collective differences in appearance and culture, and humans are tribal in our DNA. Unless we all become just "one culture, one ethnicity, one gender", etc., we'll always have differences, and those should be acknowledged, respected, and appreciated.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic nous sommes tous uniques Pat, c'est ce qui fait la beauté de l'être humain, mais tous égaux face au créateur...and...the creator has a master plan ☮️
I don't speak French?
@@PatrickBartleyMusic and I speak a very bad english haha, sorry Pat 🙏 love your music so much by the way, as an amateur alto sax player you're a model bro. And thanks for all you give on your channel too
@@joeschmoe6720 "No color in jazz" is such a dangerous lie that needs to stop. The music itself has no race or ethnicity, but jazz is much more than just music. The reason why people all sound the same today is because no one wants to acknowledge the uncomfortable parts of the music. They get these PDF packages and read the same transcription videos on this app. No one cares enough to dig deep into all of the gritty things that makes this music special - which are our DIFFERENCES that bring us together when we can acknowledge them lovingly; that means accepting where this music came from, first and foremost, so that these folks aren't written out of history because of people who want to spread a message of "oh, this is everyone's music." Yes, it is a gift for everyone from the hearts, minds, and souls of a collective group of individuals in New Orleans, with a special set of circumstances that made them decide to create what they did.
There’s nothing new under the sun. All music including of course jazz, has it’s foundation in Western Classical music. At it’s core, the notes, scales, chords, modes and even the instruments are all from European heritage. Jazz wasn’t invented in a closet, we know it’s roots are out of New Orleans music culture, the street bands, the march, etc. Yes jazz is black American music with European roots, there’s no escaping that. And why should someone try to escape that fact? Embrace it for what it is.
ALL western music is based on the classical forms of European music theory... including jazz. Blacks did NOT create scales chords, etc.. therefore, they did not create jazz. Jazz is based on classical theory. Bach in a round about way created the foundation for jazz. Blacks did not create western music theory without which there would be NO JAZZ! This is a nonsense question.
Yes jazz is based off of European theory, but there would be no jazz without Black Americans . When we can celebrate the unique contributions from different cultures to this great American culture, we’’ll begin to appreciate the fullness of God’s handiwork.
Black isn’t a culture there are a number of different blacks with different pigments of skin. There are black Cubans, black Americans, black Mestizos, and there are white people of the same cultures as well. You’re not representing Stanley crouch truthfully. Much of what jazz is now is only possible because of different cultures coming in contact with each other. Biggest example is Dizzy’s love for Latin Music. You either haven’t seen or read enough of Crouch to make this video, or you’re purposely ignoring what he is saying.
Nah, you're being obtuse with the word "black". No other ethnic group around the world claims the word "black" besides the descendants of Africa. There are dark-skinned Asians, too, the Ainu people. Many of them still alive today, as well. Same in Okinawa.
This is why colorism is a farce.
While I don't agree or believe in identifying by skin color, I do concede to the fact that African-descendant folks in America have created a distinct culture that is identified as "black culture." You're just playing a semantic game to be obtuse, but that's ok. You can call it "Okiedokie culture" if you want, it doesn't matter what you call it - but the "culture" in question belongs to the people that have been identified as "black", and that's why we call it that. I personally don't care for your facetious semantics. I'd like to believe this is a conversation in good faith.
"Didn't read enough Crouch" I MET "Crouch". I knew him in person, before he passed. And I've listened to him speak many times throughout my life. You can listen to him say, MANY times, his acknowledgement of the negro in America.
Hybrid
Jazz goes back to the french romantic Composers. Debussy, raval, Faure and Satie.
Why does this strange false narrative keep popping up in random places from time to time? It's so strange, I'm curious where people are getting this from, at this point LOL. Like "yeah bro, Pops was really hitting the books of Debussy, Satie and... (checks notes) ... raval."
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Ellington and Billy strayhorn certainly were studying. It is well documented. Furthermore, Polly rhythms, cross section voicing go back centuries. Heck you can find it in centuries old choir music.One could argue Native Americans were the first to use 4/4 time. Or Scottish and Irish Folk songs. The problem is..how does one come up with a valid argument. When the capability to record music. Was invented in The late 1800's. Name one element of Jazz that is definitevly African American?
@@HockeyDudeJames2 Are you a Destiny fan, or something? This is the only thing I can assume from this level of cherry picking.
I would encourage you to go research Buddy Bolden, King Oliver, and Jelly Roll Morton, to start, before coming back to talk about this topic. 😊👍🏾
@@PatrickBartleyMusic If you can prove that Africans were the first to use the 4/4 time signature. Only then, is this a conversation worth having.
@@HockeyDudeJames2 Respectfully, or not, idc, what the hell are you talking about
А какое значение имеет этот вопрос? Вот вы находитесь на вершине развития этого искусства, множество людей вне зависимости от цвета кожи сделали огромный вклад в эту музыку и повлияли на ее развитие. Да, основные повороты в развитии джаза связаны с черными музыкантами. Вот пять джазовых икон - Армстронг, Эллингтон, Паркер, Колтрейн, Дэвис - да, все они были черными. Но что значит, что джаз - музыка черных? Белые не могут его играть? Могут.