Imagine writing a book and then spend the rest of your life trying to explain it and trying to puzzle it together. And after your death people still debate what it was all about.
That's one of the main attractions of the legendarium. As Tolkien himself said, it's a feigned history. There may be narrative differences. And most that history is lost.
@@gagaplex "It's kind of like "real" mythology in that way." It doesn't become real mythology until more people start adding to the cannon. When it goes into the public domain and fans start writing their own takes, it will feel a lot more like a real mythology. It also won't have an official cannon, save Tolkiens original works.
1:26 Yes, Glorfindel slew the Balrog and died in the process. But it's interesting to note that there is a parallel here with Gandalf's fight with a Balrog after falling into blackness at Khazad-dûm. You see, Glorfindel did not STAY dead. Like Gandalf, he was reincarnated and "sent back" and he actually played a pivotal role in Frodo's quest. He is the Elf who Aragorn recognizes and greets in the flight to the Ford of the River Bruinen, the one who had left the beryl on the previous bridge to let Aragorn know it was safe to pass. Then, he let Frodo ride his horse, and escape the Nazgûl, literally saving all of Middle-Earth from Sauron's recapture of the One Ring and the misery that would follow. He was erased from the movies, replaced by Arwen...but nonetheless, he's an important character who played a major role in the events that ended two separate ages of Middle-Earth.
Erasing Glorfindel from the movies was one of Jackson's best creative decisions. Glorfindel is a one-and-done character. Moviegoers will wonder who the hell he is, and if he is so powerful, why doesn't he join the Fellowship? Both of which would require more exposition. Swapping Glorfindel with Arwen gave her a much larger presence in the films than in the books, where she is barely there, as well as much needed female representation in a narrative overwhelmingly dominated by dudes.
@@squamish4244If you need someone who shares an immutable characteristic with you to be in a story for you to relate with it, the story isn’t for you, and therefore should not be changed to suit your whims in the first place. Plenty of women loved LotR without the need of such pandering.
@@samaritan_sys Movies aren't novels. What works in one doesn't work in the either. Having Arwen save Frodo helps the Aragorn/Arwen romance when Glorfindel doesn't show up ever again
There should be at most 4 that escaped. Durins Bane might have ended up in Moria just because the Misty Mountains would be the first major barrier hit if you were to flee East from Beleriand. But the Balrogs took their form in Udun, or Utumno, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume there has got to be at least 1 hiding in the ruins there, as almost nobody knows where it is but the Balrogs have a big connection to it and know how to get there. It also qualifies as "caverns inaccessible at the roots of the Earth"
The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth in the Years of the Trees, and Caradhras was particularly malevolent - must've been a nice place for a Balrog to nap under!
I really don't think so. I mean (writing this tongue in cheek somewhat) if they ever watched a crime movie they must have known that the first place where the cops start looking for fugitves is at their or their parents', relatives' and friends' homes. Jokes aside, I really don't think it would have been smart trying to hide there. That's as if the Nazgul had tried to hide in the ruins of Barad-Dur.
@@aidenharper6013 No, Udun was far to the East. Angband was the lesser fortress to watch for movement of the Valar and the Misty Mountains were the walls to slow them down. Udun was closer to the inland sea where the Elves awoke. It was destroyed prior to the Elves moving West in a great war that little is known about because only the Valar took part.
There is also this little thing: the lands that Morgoth helt/ruled over were broken off or sunk beneath the sea, so however deep the Balrogs hid... hope for them they're great swimmers.
If we take the case that there were 7 of them, I'm inclined to think Durin's bane and one or two more escaped and hid further east or south. Though I'm interested if, since they're beings of sin in a way, they were too prideful to run and hide and thus fought till the end.
Just like all the others, goblins included, they each had their own reaction. Gandalf was like, oh crap how do I explain this thing to them. Legolas was placing a childhood nightmare in the front of his mind, Gimli probably recognized it from stories as well. The Hobbits would simply have thought, of great instead of walking we are now running, this means no more supper for ages...
In reading the Silmarillion, my internal head-canon assumed there to be some few dozen of them at their height under Morgoth. Exceedingly rare, but not entirely unique. The book suggested to me that the Balrogs were kind of like Morgoth's generals, commanding legions of orcs on the battlefield and driving the dragons before them with their whips. So it makes sense, if that's true, for there to be a few dozen or so. If there were that many, then one could assume that a few survived into the third age, hiding in deep dark places, waiting for the day that Morgoth comes back to fetch them.
It wouldn't be that far fetched to assume that Sauron may have encountered a Balrog during the Second Age and may even have tried to recruit him to his service, but being Maiar themselves, Balrogs might not be inclined to enter the service of another Maiar. Who knows, maybe Sauron even fought a Balrog in the Second Age.
I don’t think so, I mean maybe but Sauron was never privy to combat, I’m sure he could beat one but it would not be an easy task even for him; being the best in the land at deception and manipulation, I think he would likely find another way to handle it.
NoMe revealed that when Sauron tried to recruit some of Morgoth's original Orcs in the east, they laughed at him. He might've had a similar experience with some of Morgoth's other servants.
I think if we take into account the fact that Gandalf and every other powerful character who knew of it was afraid of the Balrog, and it was even powerful enough to kill Gandalf, indicates that only a small handful could’ve ever been around. If only 5 wizards existed, it makes sense as a matter of balance that only 5-7 balrogs would’ve existed.
Yeah but it's always way cooler to have villains be overpowered compared to heroes so based on the context of their presence in the war of wrath I'd put them at around 20+ in number.
I like to think there was at least 1 or 2 more. The idea of some ancient horror persisting through the ages really sticks in my mind. Maybe one languishing in the remnant pits of Utumno.
I think there would be at most one more balrog left, and even that is doubtful. The Silmarilion implied that the majority of balrogs weredestroyed when Morgoth was overthrown. There are at least two stated as killed in the fall of Gondolin, so if there were seven to start with, there were only five left. A majority destroyed would be at least three. So that's Durin's Bane and at most one more.
I think the good characters in the 1st and 2nd age were more powerful than those of the 3rd age. That’s why the Balrog in Moria seemed so overpowered. Plus I think due to it’s age it grew more powerful over the ages.
Ah, Tolkien and his retcons... I'm just going to ignore his lore-intentions and go with my headcannon of there being at least two dozen Balrogs under Morgoth's rule.
I like the idea someone here gave, that there are 7 OP Balrogs being lead by Gothmog and plenty lesser Balrogs that are much weaker. It combines both Tolkien's views on this matter.
A few dozen seems about right to me as well. Enough of them to lose a couple here or there over thousands of years and yet still have a handful dozing in the bones of the earth at the end of the third age, yet few enough that they were each powerful and significant enough to be generals of Morgoth's armies.
I gotta go with a few dozen too. Numerous enough to help keep the Siege of Angband going, but rare and powerful enough that it preserves the achievements of the only three to solo one.
I like to think there’s a couple more hidden in the world somewhere. The lands are vast and there are a lot of ancient terrors still lurking around from the old times.
I love how this video is a reminder that this incredible and amazing legendarium, is still written by a human being and thus fallible, and contains its own contradictions. Those contradictions don't diminish the brilliance of Tolkien's work, should be accepted and factored into our analysis and perceptions of it.
Some may say that even enhance it, since it gives more credibility to his mythology as "history that is passed upon generations", just like our own histories and mythologies.
I like to merge all the versions of the story in my head. Since Maiar can be drastically different in terms of power, I imagine that there may have been only up to seven as powerful as Gothmog or Durin's Bane, and possibly hundreds of lesser balrogs.
This is somewhat similar to Lord of the Rings Online's interpretation. There are Balrogs, but there are lesser demons known as Rogmul. I also haven't delved into it too much, but there's a theory floating around that what Glorfindel fought wasn't actually a Balrog, but a lesser demon.
As to what the Balrog was doing down there for 6,500 years, I have a theory: Melkor/Morgoth was always looking for the Flame Imperishable -- the magic of Iluvatar that grants life. Morgoth could not create, he could only corrupt, and he desired the secret of creating life so that he could populate Arda with his own unique creations. He believed that the Flame Imperishable was located somewhere within Arda (probably the planet's core), so he began digging deep holes to reach it, both in his original fortress at Utumno, and his second one at Angband. Of course the Secret Fire wasn't anywhere within Arda, it was in the void with Iluvatar the entire time, but Morgoth didn't know that, so in the long years between his wars with the Valar and the elves, and even during them, he and his minions kept digging. The vast cave networks underneath most mountain ranges were originally carved out by him and his balrogs. And when he was finally defeated at the end of the First Age, most of his minions fled but continued following his orders to find the Flame Imperishable.
Always struck me that you really have to wonder about the intrinsic evilness of creatures whose main desire if left to their own devices seems to be to find a nice hidden cave somewhere and sleep.
The Silmarillion says that many Maiar spirits fell under Morgoth's sway. Sauron and the three Balrogs we know don't really seem enough. Sauron and seven balrogs sounds a bit better, but I got the idea that it was a fair bit more.
@@anlumo1 Shelob was a child of Ungoliant. And Ungoliant was not a Maiar. In fact, she was so powerful she could threaten the strongest of the Valars - Melkor.
In my headcanon Morgoth, being what he is, also abuses his weaker Maiar servants, using their spirits in his twisted creations. So does Sauron with the evil spirits embodied in his werewolves. No true evidence but Glaurung and the Dragons could be Maiar too. Luthien bullies Sauron by threatening to send his naked spirit back to Morgoth, maybe lesser Maiar were not allowed to have a physical form in case of future need. Fascinating tangent
I'm just doing a global comment on your channel to express I really like what you are doing in terms of Tolkien's analysis. Your videos are very different from the other youtubers talking about Tolkien, from the choice of subject to the wait you use Tolkien's work and analyze it. Keep doing that !
I understand that more than one balrog perished at Gondolin. So it’s certainly possible for there to have been more than 3 and for Durin’s Bane to still have been the last. Since there are clearly other unnamed monstrosities in the deep places of Middle Earth (the Watcher at the pool outside of Moria) then it is also possible that another balrog could still be hiding/slumbering in a deep underground cavern somewhere.
There were easily at least 13 Balrogs still alive even into the 4th Age. It’s quite easy to prove. They lived next door to me in my previous apartment. Only a full compliment of Udun flames make that much noise.
So far - an underrated comment. I was one of those Balrogs, and yes we were terribly loud and unruly, but it was only to drown out our own fears and insecurities. Most have calmed down considerably these days. I teach 2nd grade and only rampage and cause bloody mayhem of a weekend.
@@whynottalklikeapirat Glad to hear you have given up the ways of Morgoth, and became a public servant of the secret fire as a teacher! Although don’t take Gandalf’s “YOU SHALL NOT PASS” to heart too much, for those poor kids’ sake. And don’t worry…we all let the dark fire avail us on the weekends 😄
@@masamune2984 The thing that Gandalf tended to miss in terms of what we should or shouldn’t do was you can’t just use a wand to get from an “is” to an “ought”. At best that kind of spectacle will get you from an “is” to an “orc” really quickly in the deep dark places of the earth. But yes - a public servant of the secret fire 📞👹 🖥 You know - in spite of everything - it really still does continue to avail me.
I always thought that there were hundreds of Balrogs of various degrees of size and power much like the rest of the Maiar. Gothmog would have been the Chief among them and that there were 7 Greater Balrogs (including Gothmog) who led the forces of Morgoth. Durin's Bane given what it accomplished once freed would have been one of the Greater Balrogs. Middle-Earth Role Playing (MERP) by Iron Crown Enterprises also uses the loop hole in the Silmarillion to sprinkle a few other lesser Balrogs in it's Campaign books in the Haradwath, Far South and Far East.
I've been wondering how much contact Sauron and Durin's Bane had with each other. Sauron spent hundreds of years in Dol Guldur after the Watchful Peace, surely they would have known of each other. Did they work together besides allowing orcs to live there and gather mitrhil? Also, was the orc host that marched into Moria days before the Fellowship arrived sent there to trap the Fellowship (meaning that they were warned in advance that the Fellowship might travel through Moria) or was it just a coincidence?
It was a little funny. For whatever reason the Balrog wouldn't leave Moria. If it wasn't killed by Gandalf would it have led an attack against Lorien a few weeks later? Of course it didn't intervene during the battle of the Orcs and Dwarves that happened right outside of Moria. It was standing just inside the gate according to Dain. Maybe it was there to keep the Orcs from fleeing?;Personally, always felt it was in league with Sauron, that they were waiting for the right moment for the Balrog to show itself openly. Do think that the Balrog considered Moria as it's fiefdom.
Here's one piece of evidence. Orcs and Trolls aren't native to Moria. They migrated to Moria after the Balrog chased the Dwarves out. Clearly Sauron would've wanted to know what had happened there. There would've been contact and as they have the same enemies, cooperation on some level. Not sure how informed the Balrog would be of Saurons plans. The Balrog had no plan as far as we can see beyond sitting in Moria till the end of time. In the case of an intrusion it might or not be bothered to respond to it. Did it give Balin and his colony a few years of success in the hopes that it would draw in more colonists or was it just lazy? Maybe it was a lesser problem for lesser creatures like the orcs? It's implied that it did get involved at the final stage of the colonies destruction.
I've always wondered what would have happened if Frodo had been killed in Moria and the Balrog had managed to capture the ring. Being an ancient and evil being who was at least a semi peer to Saurons power level it's not like Sauron could force it to give the ring up to him.
As far as I'm aware, the Orcs in Moria had been there for hundreds of years. I don't believe any forces were sent there just before the Fellowship arrived. Happy to be proven wrong if you've got a quote handy.
@@DarthGandalfYT In the chapter Lothlorien, about halfway through, Haldir says "But now we must debate no longer. Your folk must not remain on the ground. We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north towards Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago. Wolves are howling on the wood's borders. If you have indeed come from Moria, the peril cannot be far behind." I've never understood if that was just a regular shipment of reinforcements from Dol Guldur or if they were specifically sent to find the Fellowship.
Always keep your notes when writing. There may be someone that wants to do a deep dive on your lore someday. I feel better about my boxes of notes in the closet now.
For me, the clincher is Gandalf going to the undying lands because his task is done, and the fact that a Balrog is beyond any what any of the mortals can withstand. If one later woke up, it implies a Maiar would need to be sent back to Middle Earth to deal with him.
Considering that elven steel could kill them, Gandalf could have been sure that it wouldn't wake up until people were strong enough to defeat them on their own. Could a balrog survive getting hit by a 120mm tank round?
The task was to destroy Sauron, not destroy every potentially hostile Maia that might be around. Sauron was destroyed, therefore the task was complete. The Straight Road isn't a one way trip either. Maiar can come and go as they please.
It's safe to say that there were at most seven at the time when Gothmog was slain and personally I don't think it's that weird to assume there were hundreds when Melkor first started to corrupt the Maiar. The battles in between, the Elves and Men together with the Valar slapped some good ass and might have killed off plenty of Balrogs to where Melkor was down to the final seven.
Considering how vastly different Maiar can be, I wonder if the other Balrogs even were like Durin's Bane. Maybe they were very different from each other, too.
I like to think there's one or two more hidden in parts of the world; Middle Earth is so big that it's entirely possible. Maybe one in the far north of the Grey Mountains and one far East or South, or in the more distant parts of Mordor away from Barad-Dur.
And in the Medieval 2 Total War mod "Divide and Conquer", there is a Balrog hidden beneath the Dwarven fortress in the Blue Mountains called Buzra-Dûm. I love the ambiguity of some Tolkien lore, it leaves so much room for fan works to create interesting scenarios with!
Interesting to see Tolkien’s writing process. The first quote from Celeborn sounds like Exposition/Infodump, but the final version in Fellowship feels more real and true to Celeborn as a character. He’s definitely afraid of the Balrog, but you sort of get the sense that he distrusts Moria in General, probably due to being from Doriath/Related to Thingol, who was killed by Dwarves.
Well, this further cement by the fact the King of Lorien, Amroth leaves middle earth, leaving Celeborn and Galadriel in charge, after the awakening of the balrog!
Durin's Bane was one of the few Balrogs that survived the War of Wrath. You can read it in Silmarillion where it says that they fled and hid in the deepest depths of the Earth. They are Maiar spirits, immortal, and therefore the others are still there waiting to be discovered, most likely by Dwarves looking for Mithril.
I mean he explains that in the video that it could or not could not be true depending on your interpretation of how Tolkien changed his perspective on the Balrogs in comparison on when his writings took place. I would like to believe there are a few out there that are either still slumbering or have been wiped out on the later years further with the age of man
@@CimmerianAssassin I would like to presume they are still out there because unlike Sauron, who is also a Maiar, the Balrogs did not extended their life force to something external like the Ring. They need to be physically killed like Gothmog and Durin's Bane. Even if they die, their spirit will linger stronger than Sauron and may reincarnate because of the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath. But that's just my take.
My head canon is that nine balrogs fell to morgoths service. Just as nine mortal men were doomed to die and serve Sauron. It would make sense giving that Morgoth persuaded nine primeval demigods to take up arms against the valor and in exchange they lose their beautiful forms for one more demonic
The art by Manuel Castanon at 3:26. Looks most like Tolkien’s description of the balrog in Lord of the Rings, except for the hovering (damn thing could leap, though!).
I always imaged during a battle in the first age, a mountain was dropped on the balrog, and it was assumed to be destroyed. Unbeknownst to every one, it was not killed only trapped. Until the dwarves dug too deep...
There are at least 12 to 20 of them hidden deep under various mountains in the East. Where the easterlings lands are and beyond but also far north in the unknown lands.
6:43 I remember reading the LOTR Weapons and Warfare book and in it the page reads “and possibly the last of its kind”. That line always stuck out to me. What do you mean “possibly”?
Sauron would technically fit into definition of "who is a balrog", as though his shape was often that of "fair elven", he could indeed change his form, though it was limited after the fall of Numenor, him joining Morgoth and being a Maia, fit with who a balrog would be.
I've always held that what the Elves know (and hence what they pass on to Dwarves, Men, and Hobbits) is not 'Gospel' Truth. That is, their knowledge is imperfect (if not occasionally deliberately deceptive). While I could accept much less than the thousands indicated in the Fall of Gondolin, I find less than a dozen unpalatable. The narrative of the Fall of Gondolin, though doubtless embellished for narrative drama, is nonetheless captivating for me, and I simply cannot accept that there were at most seven present for the sacking of Gondolin.
Because Gospel is supposed to be true lol? I know you didn’t make this saying but Gospel truth as in Gospel is supposed to be absolutely true is one of the most stupid concept I have ever heard of. Other than I completely agree with what you say and that the elves aren’t 100% reliable with their lore telling.
Maybe there was a forgotten breed of troll in the Elder Days, the ‘fire troll’, and they were mistaken by the Elves as Balrogs? Akin to the stone trolls, the fire troll could have been a troll that lived in magma, not just ordinary stone.
Exactly what I wanted to say. I dont believe that there are 1000+, that seems a bit silly, but to say that maybe...a hundred? More or less? Or even some tens, maybe an amount around 50 or 60? I feel like that many is much more believable. Calling Gothmog "Lord of Balrogs" would make it seem like there would be enough of them to make up a small community of which to be Lord over. Perhaps not thousands, certainly not, but a hundred or more VERY powerful creatures I feel would make a sizeable community or "kingdom." Melkor convincing a few groups of maiar to join his side seems easy enough, especially when he has so many groups to pull from. Going around all the valar (14 of them?), he would really only need like 2 or 3 from each valars service to make up 50 or 60 balrogs. Bring that up to 8 or 9 from each valar and he's already over 100. It's a bit fanciful, yes, but perhaps those who are said to have slain "several" balrogs at a time DID do so, but were only able to because the balrogs in this specific case were particularly weak maiar. Theres no reason to believe ALL maiar are as skilled or powerful at holding a physical form and making use of it as, say, Gandalf or Sauron were. But its all just speculation anyways, and Tolkien would've certainly encouraged good speculation from his work.
I tend to think there was “a handful” of them, maybe a half dozen or so. Also I’ve always tossed around the idea that Sauron used the energies of some of these survivors to “supercharge” Mt Doom. This probably doesn’t fit in the lore, but it’s fun to think about.
After watching this video, I am wondering if Saruman knew/heard about Durin's Bane and forced the fellowship that was trying to go over the mountain pass in the first movie and go through Moria in hopes of ridding himself of Gandalf since Saruman thinks that Gandalf is his biggest threat to obtaining power/dominion in middle earth.
I was always unsure of where the ruins of Udun might be in Middle Earth. Might there still be Balrogs who went there to hide in the depths of the collapsed fortress somewhere?
By Udun I’m assuming you’re referring to Utumno. If thats the case the best two bets would be the two surviving portions of the Iron Mountains which were created to border Melkor’s kingdom. Those would be either the Mountains of Angmar, reaching out west from Mount Gundabad, or the Iron Hills, which lie far east of Erebor. Given the fact that from Angmar the Witch King rose and drew power, along with its close proximity to Gundabad which is teeming with Orcs, I’d say thats the better bet. That being said the Iron Hills are also heavily colonised by Dwarves and they do have a history of picking the wrong mountains so may have just not dug too greedily and too deep there yet
I would suggest that "Balrog" had been a catch all phase used by humans who were on the edges of the war between Morgoth and his enemies, but those who were more knowledgeable saved the name for a specific few of Morgoth's most powerful captains.
I could see maybe there could be some up north in what’s left of Angband but they’re asleep, maybe someone adventuring up north could stumble on one, and awaken it.
Just a thought to connect two of your middle-earth mysteries videos, this and the Utumno video, But if we went with the idea that Utumno wasn't submerged and is in fact burried somewhere in Forodwaith, maybe they are in there, which would give even more reason to not find Utumno and why, assuming it is burried, its better staying that way, don't need a "Moria 2 Balrog'scoming for you". And assuming Utumno was submerged, maybe the remaining Balrogs did hid in Utumno and they perished when the Utumno was submerged into the Icebay of Forochel, leaving just Durins Bain who may have gone its own way or was seperated from the rest for some reason.
great video i would probably thin so but probably not the last balrog there might be some in the deep depths of the forodwaith or grey mountains or in the far north of the blue mountains keep up the great middle earth mysteries videos
I’ve always headcannon that at least 9 came to serve morgoth in the first age. Just as 9 mortal men were doomed to die and serve Sauron. Since we technically don’t know what would’ve happened in the 4th age and the “end times” for Arda wasn’t planned out we can assume that a few balrogs are still around hypothetically
Tolkien was maybe speaking about the belief of Balrogs shared in the universe. It might have been that the Elves and Valar had encountered and accounted for a specific number (ie: 7), but the true number and their locations were known only to Morgoth. It may also have been that originally there were thousands, but many were killed off prior to the awakening of the Elves during the wars that resulted in the Valar imprisoning Morgoth the first time.
We should presume that more than one balrog perished in the war of wrath, and less than that number escaped. Two perished at gondolin, so perhaps three perished at the end of fa, for a total of 5 in fa, leaving perhaps 2 afterwards, one of which was slain by Gandalf
@@alanpennie8013 curious. Sauron gave up his corporeal form in Numenor, and reconstituted back home-Mordor, also gave up his body at the war of the last alliance. When Gandalf died, he reconstituted in Valinor. If this is a requirement, then the slain balrogs would have not been allowed to leave? by why the exception for Sauron?
I really like to imagine that at one time there were many Balrogs. But that they were hunted down by Orome before the awakening of the elves. And more were then destroyed by Manwe and Eonwe after the destruction of the lamps. Leaving only a handful by the time Morgoth returned to Middle Earth.
Morgoth defeated the Valar in the destruction of the Two Lamps and they withdrew to Aman. Perhaps you are thinking of the War for the Sake of the Elves?
Interesting topic, from what I conclude is that the most reasonable conclusion is that indeed Durin's Bane was the last only, though I like the idea that at least one of the others escaped as well, possibly to Forodwaith or something like that. Thats why I dont mind too much that adaptations break this lore like Shadow of War did and like RoP will do now, though doesnt seem too fit with the lore that we had another Balrog loose wrecking havoc fitting with Celeborn's sentence in the LOTR that he havent "heard of Balrog since the Elder Days". But a Balrog is hella cool, specially done in the style of John Howe/Peter Jackson, which is not lore accurate but still looks amazing!
if one did survive im guessing it would have fled as far from Beleriand as possible. Arda is a very big place. There's plenty of other mountain ranges for one to potentially gain access to the root system under the world especially in the far east of the world. In my head canon Lungorthin is still alive somewhere biding his time until the final battle.
There were as many as followed morgoth after morgoth's death metal verses in the song of the world, most perished at the north war, Durin's bane tied with gandalf in death only for gandalf to recieve new instructions a new coat and less restrictions on his power levels. The last 7 I assume are all hanging out in morgoth's underground city-palace.
To me, this is one of those things Tolkien never finished propagating his final thoughts throughout the Legendarium. Trying to reconcile even 7 with what else was written elsewhere is a real stretch. It just seems to me that we need a few more than that to make things as consistent as possible.
I go with the seven theory, though I prefer the idea that only Duran's Bane and another Balrog got away. If I could speculate just a bit, knowing Tolkien was flirting with the idea of a sequel towards the end, Gandalf's warning of "other evils" after Sauron, and the hint of their being at least Balrogs besides this one getting away, that could have nicely set up a final adversary and a last adventure to preserve the piece won in the War of the Ring. Alternatively, considering how openly hellish the Balrogs are as Middle Earth's version of fallen angels (being Melkor-serving Maiar), perhaps the remainders could serve a different role: remembering the Silmarillion is supposed to be a myth for England and is influenced by Tolkien's Catholic beliefs, perhaps the fiery, horn headed final maiar to serve as an active echo of the ancient evil could serve as his version of another ancient force of evil that we're better acquainted with.
Celeborn’s surprise at the Balrog still being active in Moria doesn’t make that much sense. Just over 200 years prior, it had been seen by Dain. Do they just hibernate all the time?
*Come on, we all want to believe there were still Balrogs... and Dragons... and Trolls, and Goblins, and all those fantasy creatures that are ugly or scary or dangerous but we love them!*
It has been a while since I read Fellowship, but I seem to recall that in Lothlorien the elves liken Sauron to a Balrog and say something along the line of Durin`s Bane being the last of the Balrogs save the one in Barad Dur. While I am aware he is not officially considered one, Mordor as an extension of his being is known for being a land of flame and shadow (literally encircled by the Shadow Mountains). Also, once he cannot assume fair form he seemingly begins to revert to a Balrog-like form: larger than man-size, burns Gil-galad with his black hand. As Morgoth`s top lieutenant, and the mightiest bar maybe Gothmog, the elves may count him among their ranks, since the Noldor were the ones flailing about Belleriand, accusing everything that moves of being an enemy, giving them Sindarin names/titles (not the Valar, who are the only that could distinguish between his servants properly).
I seem to recall from the Simarillion that in the battle that deposed Morgoth it is stated that the Balrogs that survived sought refuge in the deep places of the earth. Emphasis on the plural. Therefore its safe to say that more than one did. Furthermore given that they were Valar corrupted by Morgoth they had an indefinite lifespan. Middle Earth even after the defeat of Sauron could not claim to have destroyed all his servants & slaves.
@Dan Beech Thanx correction Dan, however if memory serves the Balrogs were drawn from the third order which would not be the Maia (forgotten the name its been years). The five wizards were selected from that order & therefore Gandalf was able to defeat his dread foe. All the best
@Dan Beech Hi last time Dan. I'm 56 & a prolific reader. I have to sort through D Eddings, M Peake, R Feist & a plethora of other fantasy authors. Tolkien is still the man in fantasy for my tastes. His writing style & immense knowledge of language & mythology was incredible. The fact he was in the WW1 trenches makes Mordor all the more terrible. So all the best to you.
What was Sauron's relationship to the Balrog of Moria? He commanded Balrogs in Morgoth's absence, but doesn't seem to in the Third Age. Neither did he order Smaug around. This is all background to Tolkien's statement that when Sauron set himself up in Mordor he put out a call for all evil things to join him. This would have been a natural point for any and all Balrogs to join him and become generals of his armies. But the Moria Balrog presumably wanted to keep ruling Moria. And any others, if they did exist, were not tempted to join Sauron.
I assume that Balrogs (and Dragons too) still saw themselves as servants of Morgoth, and did not wish to submit to one of his underlings. There's a cool quote from NoMe which states that many of Morgoth's first Orcs, who were still operating in the east, initially rejected Sauron when he tried to recruit them.
It can just be hand waved away by saying that when Balrogs were seen in great numbers that it was spirits/beings of lesser power that resembled balrogs, don't know if this violates Tolkien's lore, but I'm not writing for amazon
We can always continue the Story and the other 4 can pop up Im sure someone or Well versed group can take up the helm in True Tolkien style In fact that would be a Great Honour
I mean, Durin's Bane was probably the last one simply because we didn't see one come out to help Sauron at the last big battle. You have to imagine that a Balrog would have wanted Sauron to rule so he could rampage free. Not to mention a Balrog on the battlefield would probably have secured victory for Sauron at least in the battle. Maybe that changes the outcome if Sauron can just send out a Balrog and a few trolls plus a smaller force and leave the vast majority of orcs behind his walls.
The balrogs are definitely powerful but it’s nothing that a well trained small sized army (probably 100 or 200 at least) wouldn’t be able to handle. It would be on par with fighting a fire drake like smaug. The mumakil didn’t really guarantee victory but they would have won against Rohan had the dead not shown up, but we still saw plenty of mumakil slain and a ton of resistance put up against them. And yes large swords, large spears Can kill a balrog, they’re not invincible. I’m thinking those spear catapults can reek havoc against balrogs. I don’t think Sauron would be able to control the balrogs, and I don’t see any reason why they would fight for Sauron. Sauron and Morgoth actually differed a bit politically. Sauron wanted some fascistic style of order including slavery, basically an empire that strives towards peace once everything was conquered, and Morgoth wanted nothing but death and total destruction.
@@sdaftermath123 the only reason I think a Balrog might make a temporary alliance with Sauron is the same as Shelob might, 1) temporary protection and 2) the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Balrog probably knows the humans wouldn't leave it alone if Sauron goes down, eventually they'll come for him too. As for a Balrog on the Battlefield I think if a Balrog was added to a small army it would turn the tide. Besides Sauron already had a big army but maybe now he can spare a Nazgul or 2 to guard Mount Doom.
@@randomguy2809 well it would obviously pick Sauron’s side if it was forced to join but I can’t imagine seeing durins bane joining a battlefield for Sauron when it’s one of the last of its kind. The balrogs are technically the same ranking as Sauron under morgoth. Almost as powerful too. Hell it killed Gandalf, that was a 50/50 fight
@@sdaftermath123 but also why not? If we agree that an army can probably take down a Balrog, then it has to know the elves or the men are going to try to kill it eventually. Why not just win the battle and eliminate the threat? Even if it's threatened by Sauron, the Balrog isn't afraid of the orks attacking him, he would wreck them. So the only real threat to a Balrog is an organized army like the elves or men, although realistically probably only the elves as they still have rings of power. That would be my play if I was a Balrog, just saying, go help Sauron win the big battle and let him push through Gondor and Rohan to finish off the elves, the last threat to the Balrog.
@@randomguy2809 I believe the remaining balrogs went into hiding after the war of wrath. I don’t think the elves would go “looking for it,” same reason as to why the balrogs wouldn’t look for them. But look at it this way, Sauron was raging battles for decades up until the events of the fellowship of the ring. Battle of five armies, dol Gol dur attacks on Mirkwood, constant attacks on Gondor ETC… durins bane never joined in. Though Sauron did remain hidden, so it’s possible Durin wasn’t aware Sauron still existed. And same vi versa War of the ring was happening for decades before men and elves picked up on it.
I imagine we will see Gothmog and ALL the Balrogs in this RoP series, and probably spot Durins Bane running off to (Moria) at the end of whatever battle scene takes place.
I kind of like it that he left loose ends. Although I personally lean towards it being the last since the story of the 3rd age is that of magic leaving the world.
Did Ecthelion not kill three balrogs and Glorfindel one? That's four plus Durin's bane. Five that we know of, plus whichever others escaped the War of Wrath.
I say there is at least one left after The Return of the King, waiting in the shadows of some forgotten cave or goblin tunnel. If Tolkien had seen clear to finish his Fourth Age story, I feel that a balrog would have been a great enemy for the new heroes to fight along with goblins and any remaining orcs.
If there were other surviving Balrogs, maybe they made it to the 4th Age. Perhaps as the genesis of a new Dark Lord that Tolkien might have introduced in *The New Shadow* maybe?
One poor Moria dwarf's last words: "Hey, I think I've found something!"
Imagine writing a book and then spend the rest of your life trying to explain it and trying to puzzle it together.
And after your death people still debate what it was all about.
Amazing, isn't it?
It's kind of like "real" mythology in that way.
@@gagaplex
Yes. Actually it is. Good point.
That's one of the main attractions of the legendarium. As Tolkien himself said, it's a feigned history. There may be narrative differences. And most that history is lost.
@@gagaplex "It's kind of like "real" mythology in that way." It doesn't become real mythology until more people start adding to the cannon. When it goes into the public domain and fans start writing their own takes, it will feel a lot more like a real mythology. It also won't have an official cannon, save Tolkiens original works.
The last Balrog is in your walls . . .
Maybe the Last Balrog is the friends we made along the way.
You ain't wrong.
@@GetsugaTensho85 Or maybe the Last Balrog is a part of all of us
"The Last Balrog" now thats a cool title for a film, after all ....
#Balroglivesmatters
There’s a tiny Balrog in all of us.
1:26 Yes, Glorfindel slew the Balrog and died in the process. But it's interesting to note that there is a parallel here with Gandalf's fight with a Balrog after falling into blackness at Khazad-dûm. You see, Glorfindel did not STAY dead. Like Gandalf, he was reincarnated and "sent back" and he actually played a pivotal role in Frodo's quest. He is the Elf who Aragorn recognizes and greets in the flight to the Ford of the River Bruinen, the one who had left the beryl on the previous bridge to let Aragorn know it was safe to pass. Then, he let Frodo ride his horse, and escape the Nazgûl, literally saving all of Middle-Earth from Sauron's recapture of the One Ring and the misery that would follow. He was erased from the movies, replaced by Arwen...but nonetheless, he's an important character who played a major role in the events that ended two separate ages of Middle-Earth.
"He was erased from the movies, replaced by Arwen"
I know you don't mean it like that but Aragorn in love with Glorfindel would have been something...
At least Glorfindel got some spotlight in the Battle for Middle Earth II as he was one of the two protagonists of the good guys campaign.
Erasing Glorfindel from the movies was one of Jackson's best creative decisions. Glorfindel is a one-and-done character. Moviegoers will wonder who the hell he is, and if he is so powerful, why doesn't he join the Fellowship? Both of which would require more exposition.
Swapping Glorfindel with Arwen gave her a much larger presence in the films than in the books, where she is barely there, as well as much needed female representation in a narrative overwhelmingly dominated by dudes.
@@squamish4244If you need someone who shares an immutable characteristic with you to be in a story for you to relate with it, the story isn’t for you, and therefore should not be changed to suit your whims in the first place. Plenty of women loved LotR without the need of such pandering.
@@samaritan_sys Movies aren't novels. What works in one doesn't work in the either. Having Arwen save Frodo helps the Aragorn/Arwen romance when Glorfindel doesn't show up ever again
There should be at most 4 that escaped. Durins Bane might have ended up in Moria just because the Misty Mountains would be the first major barrier hit if you were to flee East from Beleriand. But the Balrogs took their form in Udun, or Utumno, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume there has got to be at least 1 hiding in the ruins there, as almost nobody knows where it is but the Balrogs have a big connection to it and know how to get there. It also qualifies as "caverns inaccessible at the roots of the Earth"
The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth in the Years of the Trees, and Caradhras was particularly malevolent - must've been a nice place for a Balrog to nap under!
I believe your take about Utomno is the same RoP will do, a Balrog hidden in Morgoth's first fortress.
I really don't think so. I mean (writing this tongue in cheek somewhat) if they ever watched a crime movie they must have known that the first place where the cops start looking for fugitves is at their or their parents', relatives' and friends' homes. Jokes aside, I really don't think it would have been smart trying to hide there. That's as if the Nazgul had tried to hide in the ruins of Barad-Dur.
@Imperial Soviet didnt they sink with Beleriland?
@@aidenharper6013 No, Udun was far to the East. Angband was the lesser fortress to watch for movement of the Valar and the Misty Mountains were the walls to slow them down. Udun was closer to the inland sea where the Elves awoke. It was destroyed prior to the Elves moving West in a great war that little is known about because only the Valar took part.
There is also this little thing: the lands that Morgoth helt/ruled over were broken off or sunk beneath the sea, so however deep the Balrogs hid... hope for them they're great swimmers.
Not all the lands, Morgoths first place was Utumno, which is way up in the frozen north of Middle Earth, that still exists and didn't sink.
They don't have to breathe, Melkor survives the great void.
@@rezarfar it was probably way further North even past forodwaith or near the ice bay of forochel
@@rezarfar Utumno was obliterated by the Valar.
@@concept5631 no it didn't, it wasn't completely destroyed by the Valar.
Gandolf was definitely surprised but not like blown away by Durins Bane. I'm sure there had to be a few survivors
If we take the case that there were 7 of them, I'm inclined to think Durin's bane and one or two more escaped and hid further east or south. Though I'm interested if, since they're beings of sin in a way, they were too prideful to run and hide and thus fought till the end.
Gandalf's job was to keep them all together and keep moral up.
To completely lose his shit at the sight of the bulrog would have run counter to that.
Just like all the others, goblins included, they each had their own reaction. Gandalf was like, oh crap how do I explain this thing to them. Legolas was placing a childhood nightmare in the front of his mind, Gimli probably recognized it from stories as well. The Hobbits would simply have thought, of great instead of walking we are now running, this means no more supper for ages...
@@nervachadikus one dies in the shadow or war game I'm pretty sure.
@@zspursandpubg3708 not cannon
In reading the Silmarillion, my internal head-canon assumed there to be some few dozen of them at their height under Morgoth. Exceedingly rare, but not entirely unique. The book suggested to me that the Balrogs were kind of like Morgoth's generals, commanding legions of orcs on the battlefield and driving the dragons before them with their whips. So it makes sense, if that's true, for there to be a few dozen or so.
If there were that many, then one could assume that a few survived into the third age, hiding in deep dark places, waiting for the day that Morgoth comes back to fetch them.
Dagor Dagorath easter eggs
It wouldn't be that far fetched to assume that Sauron may have encountered a Balrog during the Second Age and may even have tried to recruit him to his service, but being Maiar themselves, Balrogs might not be inclined to enter the service of another Maiar. Who knows, maybe Sauron even fought a Balrog in the Second Age.
Bruh dont give RoP any more ideas lol ...m though that could be an epic scene.
I don’t think so, I mean maybe but Sauron was never privy to combat, I’m sure he could beat one but it would not be an easy task even for him; being the best in the land at deception and manipulation, I think he would likely find another way to handle it.
@@hjfs8906 Sauron got his butt kicked by a wolfhound in the first age, he'd definitely be no match in physical combat for a Balrog.
NoMe revealed that when Sauron tried to recruit some of Morgoth's original Orcs in the east, they laughed at him. He might've had a similar experience with some of Morgoth's other servants.
@@meekrab9027 that was the hound of the valar you fool.
I think if we take into account the fact that Gandalf and every other powerful character who knew of it was afraid of the Balrog, and it was even powerful enough to kill Gandalf, indicates that only a small handful could’ve ever been around.
If only 5 wizards existed, it makes sense as a matter of balance that only 5-7 balrogs would’ve existed.
Did they also know there was a dragon still around as well?
Yeah but it's always way cooler to have villains be overpowered compared to heroes so based on the context of their presence in the war of wrath I'd put them at around 20+ in number.
I like to think there was at least 1 or 2 more. The idea of some ancient horror persisting through the ages really sticks in my mind. Maybe one languishing in the remnant pits of Utumno.
I think there would be at most one more balrog left, and even that is doubtful.
The Silmarilion implied that the majority of balrogs weredestroyed when Morgoth was overthrown.
There are at least two stated as killed in the fall of Gondolin, so if there were seven to start with, there were only five left.
A majority destroyed would be at least three. So that's Durin's Bane and at most one more.
I think the good characters in the 1st and 2nd age were more powerful than those of the 3rd age. That’s why the Balrog in Moria seemed so overpowered. Plus I think due to it’s age it grew more powerful over the ages.
"Giants there were in those days, heroes of old"
- paraphrasing Genesis 6, and 1 Enoch 1-36
Ah, Tolkien and his retcons... I'm just going to ignore his lore-intentions and go with my headcannon of there being at least two dozen Balrogs under Morgoth's rule.
I personally favor this as well. Seven/eight seems to be far too few
I like the idea someone here gave, that there are 7 OP Balrogs being lead by Gothmog and plenty lesser Balrogs that are much weaker. It combines both Tolkien's views on this matter.
A few dozen seems about right to me as well. Enough of them to lose a couple here or there over thousands of years and yet still have a handful dozing in the bones of the earth at the end of the third age, yet few enough that they were each powerful and significant enough to be generals of Morgoth's armies.
Is it really a retcon if he never published it in the first place? I don't think so.
I gotta go with a few dozen too. Numerous enough to help keep the Siege of Angband going, but rare and powerful enough that it preserves the achievements of the only three to solo one.
I like to think there’s a couple more hidden in the world somewhere. The lands are vast and there are a lot of ancient terrors still lurking around from the old times.
Why would Gandalf leave Middle Earth with Balrogs still about and being the only Super-Beings left?
@@joshdawson5850 To be fair, Durin's Bane was happy to just hide and be passive until "the dwarves dug too greedily and too deep".
I love how this video is a reminder that this incredible and amazing legendarium, is still written by a human being and thus fallible, and contains its own contradictions. Those contradictions don't diminish the brilliance of Tolkien's work, should be accepted and factored into our analysis and perceptions of it.
Some may say that even enhance it, since it gives more credibility to his mythology as "history that is passed upon generations", just like our own histories and mythologies.
Yes true
I like to merge all the versions of the story in my head. Since Maiar can be drastically different in terms of power, I imagine that there may have been only up to seven as powerful as Gothmog or Durin's Bane, and possibly hundreds of lesser balrogs.
I like this idea!
This is somewhat similar to Lord of the Rings Online's interpretation. There are Balrogs, but there are lesser demons known as Rogmul. I also haven't delved into it too much, but there's a theory floating around that what Glorfindel fought wasn't actually a Balrog, but a lesser demon.
I headcanon the lesser Balrogs as just being the Boldogs that Tolkien wrote about (really he just wrote one paragraph) in the later legendarium.
@@DarthGandalfYT Fingolfin wounded Morgoth severely, so why wouldn't Glorfindel be able to kill a Balrog?
@@TrangDB9 I don't think he's saying that he couldn't kill a Balrog, but perhaps he mistook one of the lesser demon for one.
As to what the Balrog was doing down there for 6,500 years, I have a theory:
Melkor/Morgoth was always looking for the Flame Imperishable -- the magic of Iluvatar that grants life. Morgoth could not create, he could only corrupt, and he desired the secret of creating life so that he could populate Arda with his own unique creations. He believed that the Flame Imperishable was located somewhere within Arda (probably the planet's core), so he began digging deep holes to reach it, both in his original fortress at Utumno, and his second one at Angband.
Of course the Secret Fire wasn't anywhere within Arda, it was in the void with Iluvatar the entire time, but Morgoth didn't know that, so in the long years between his wars with the Valar and the elves, and even during them, he and his minions kept digging. The vast cave networks underneath most mountain ranges were originally carved out by him and his balrogs. And when he was finally defeated at the end of the First Age, most of his minions fled but continued following his orders to find the Flame Imperishable.
yooooooo new upload
Always struck me that you really have to wonder about the intrinsic evilness of creatures whose main desire if left to their own devices seems to be to find a nice hidden cave somewhere and sleep.
Balrog: "I'm tired of this, Grandpa!"
Morgoth: "Well that's too damn bad!"
The Silmarillion says that many Maiar spirits fell under Morgoth's sway. Sauron and the three Balrogs we know don't really seem enough. Sauron and seven balrogs sounds a bit better, but I got the idea that it was a fair bit more.
There's also Shelob.
@@anlumo1 Shelob was a child of Ungoliant. And Ungoliant was not a Maiar. In fact, she was so powerful she could threaten the strongest of the Valars - Melkor.
In my headcanon Morgoth, being what he is, also abuses his weaker Maiar servants, using their spirits in his twisted creations. So does Sauron with the evil spirits embodied in his werewolves. No true evidence but Glaurung and the Dragons could be Maiar too. Luthien bullies Sauron by threatening to send his naked spirit back to Morgoth, maybe lesser Maiar were not allowed to have a physical form in case of future need. Fascinating tangent
I'm just doing a global comment on your channel to express I really like what you are doing in terms of Tolkien's analysis. Your videos are very different from the other youtubers talking about Tolkien, from the choice of subject to the wait you use Tolkien's work and analyze it. Keep doing that !
I understand that more than one balrog perished at Gondolin. So it’s certainly possible for there to have been more than 3 and for Durin’s Bane to still have been the last.
Since there are clearly other unnamed monstrosities in the deep places of Middle Earth (the Watcher at the pool outside of Moria) then it is also possible that another balrog could still be hiding/slumbering in a deep underground cavern somewhere.
There were easily at least 13 Balrogs still alive even into the 4th Age. It’s quite easy to prove. They lived next door to me in my previous apartment. Only a full compliment of Udun flames make that much noise.
So far - an underrated comment. I was one of those Balrogs, and yes we were terribly loud and unruly, but it was only to drown out our own fears and insecurities. Most have calmed down considerably these days. I teach 2nd grade and only rampage and cause bloody mayhem of a weekend.
@@whynottalklikeapirat Glad to hear you have given up the ways of Morgoth, and became a public servant of the secret fire as a teacher! Although don’t take Gandalf’s “YOU SHALL NOT PASS” to heart too much, for those poor kids’ sake. And don’t worry…we all let the dark fire avail us on the weekends 😄
@@masamune2984 The thing that Gandalf tended to miss in terms of what we should or shouldn’t do was you can’t just use a wand to get from an “is” to an “ought”. At best that kind of spectacle will get you from an “is” to an “orc” really quickly in the deep dark places of the earth.
But yes - a public servant of the secret fire
📞👹 🖥
You know - in spite of everything - it really still does continue to avail me.
I always thought that there were hundreds of Balrogs of various degrees of size and power much like the rest of the Maiar. Gothmog would have been the Chief among them and that there were 7 Greater Balrogs (including Gothmog) who led the forces of Morgoth. Durin's Bane given what it accomplished once freed would have been one of the Greater Balrogs. Middle-Earth Role Playing (MERP) by Iron Crown Enterprises also uses the loop hole in the Silmarillion to sprinkle a few other lesser Balrogs in it's Campaign books in the Haradwath, Far South and Far East.
I've been wondering how much contact Sauron and Durin's Bane had with each other. Sauron spent hundreds of years in Dol Guldur after the Watchful Peace, surely they would have known of each other. Did they work together besides allowing orcs to live there and gather mitrhil?
Also, was the orc host that marched into Moria days before the Fellowship arrived sent there to trap the Fellowship (meaning that they were warned in advance that the Fellowship might travel through Moria) or was it just a coincidence?
It was a little funny. For whatever reason the Balrog wouldn't leave Moria. If it wasn't killed by Gandalf would it have led an attack against Lorien a few weeks later? Of course it didn't intervene during the battle of the Orcs and Dwarves that happened right outside of Moria. It was standing just inside the gate according to Dain. Maybe it was there to keep the Orcs from fleeing?;Personally, always felt it was in league with Sauron, that they were waiting for the right moment for the Balrog to show itself openly. Do think that the Balrog considered Moria as it's fiefdom.
Here's one piece of evidence. Orcs and Trolls aren't native to Moria. They migrated to Moria after the Balrog chased the Dwarves out. Clearly Sauron would've wanted to know what had happened there. There would've been contact and as they have the same enemies, cooperation on some level. Not sure how informed the Balrog would be of Saurons plans. The Balrog had no plan as far as we can see beyond sitting in Moria till the end of time. In the case of an intrusion it might or not be bothered to respond to it. Did it give Balin and his colony a few years of success in the hopes that it would draw in more colonists or was it just lazy? Maybe it was a lesser problem for lesser creatures like the orcs? It's implied that it did get involved at the final stage of the colonies destruction.
I've always wondered what would have happened if Frodo had been killed in Moria and the Balrog had managed to capture the ring. Being an ancient and evil being who was at least a semi peer to Saurons power level it's not like Sauron could force it to give the ring up to him.
As far as I'm aware, the Orcs in Moria had been there for hundreds of years. I don't believe any forces were sent there just before the Fellowship arrived. Happy to be proven wrong if you've got a quote handy.
@@DarthGandalfYT In the chapter Lothlorien, about halfway through, Haldir says "But now we must debate no longer. Your folk must not remain on the ground. We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north towards Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many days ago. Wolves are howling on the wood's borders. If you have indeed come from Moria, the peril cannot be far behind."
I've never understood if that was just a regular shipment of reinforcements from Dol Guldur or if they were specifically sent to find the Fellowship.
Always keep your notes when writing. There may be someone that wants to do a deep dive on your lore someday. I feel better about my boxes of notes in the closet now.
For me, the clincher is Gandalf going to the undying lands because his task is done, and the fact that a Balrog is beyond any what any of the mortals can withstand. If one later woke up, it implies a Maiar would need to be sent back to Middle Earth to deal with him.
Morinehtar
That is another possibility, maybe a sequel in a long distant future?
Considering that elven steel could kill them, Gandalf could have been sure that it wouldn't wake up until people were strong enough to defeat them on their own.
Could a balrog survive getting hit by a 120mm tank round?
The task was to destroy Sauron, not destroy every potentially hostile Maia that might be around. Sauron was destroyed, therefore the task was complete. The Straight Road isn't a one way trip either. Maiar can come and go as they please.
"Funny enough, this is one the less lore breaking thing of Shadow of War!"
I laughed out loud at that part
It's safe to say that there were at most seven at the time when Gothmog was slain and personally I don't think it's that weird to assume there were hundreds when Melkor first started to corrupt the Maiar. The battles in between, the Elves and Men together with the Valar slapped some good ass and might have killed off plenty of Balrogs to where Melkor was down to the final seven.
Considering how vastly different Maiar can be, I wonder if the other Balrogs even were like Durin's Bane. Maybe they were very different from each other, too.
If there was a total of 3 balrogs at any time then it wouldn't make sense for there to be a "Lord of Balrogs" as Gothmog was known.
I like to think there's one or two more hidden in parts of the world; Middle Earth is so big that it's entirely possible. Maybe one in the far north of the Grey Mountains and one far East or South, or in the more distant parts of Mordor away from Barad-Dur.
And in the Medieval 2 Total War mod "Divide and Conquer", there is a Balrog hidden beneath the Dwarven fortress in the Blue Mountains called Buzra-Dûm. I love the ambiguity of some Tolkien lore, it leaves so much room for fan works to create interesting scenarios with!
I seem to recall that Legolas identifies the Balrog, an interesting point.
Interesting to see Tolkien’s writing process. The first quote from Celeborn sounds like Exposition/Infodump, but the final version in Fellowship feels more real and true to Celeborn as a character. He’s definitely afraid of the Balrog, but you sort of get the sense that he distrusts Moria in General, probably due to being from Doriath/Related to Thingol, who was killed by Dwarves.
Well, this further cement by the fact the King of Lorien, Amroth leaves middle earth, leaving Celeborn and Galadriel in charge, after the awakening of the balrog!
Durin's Bane was one of the few Balrogs that survived the War of Wrath. You can read it in Silmarillion where it says that they fled and hid in the deepest depths of the Earth. They are Maiar spirits, immortal, and therefore the others are still there waiting to be discovered, most likely by Dwarves looking for Mithril.
I mean he explains that in the video that it could or not could not be true depending on your interpretation of how Tolkien changed his perspective on the Balrogs in comparison on when his writings took place. I would like to believe there are a few out there that are either still slumbering or have been wiped out on the later years further with the age of man
@@CimmerianAssassin I would like to presume they are still out there because unlike Sauron, who is also a Maiar, the Balrogs did not extended their life force to something external like the Ring. They need to be physically killed like Gothmog and Durin's Bane. Even if they die, their spirit will linger stronger than Sauron and may reincarnate because of the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath. But that's just my take.
Or human geologists...
In my head canon, there are seven Balrogs. Three were killed before the War of Wrath, three during it, and only Durin's Bane escaped.
My head canon is that nine balrogs fell to morgoths service. Just as nine mortal men were doomed to die and serve Sauron. It would make sense giving that Morgoth persuaded nine primeval demigods to take up arms against the valor and in exchange they lose their beautiful forms for one more demonic
The art by Manuel Castanon at 3:26. Looks most like Tolkien’s description of the balrog in Lord of the Rings, except for the hovering (damn thing could leap, though!).
It's way scarier to imagine even after Sauron's fall that there's just 2 literally anywhere underground.
I always imaged during a battle in the first age, a mountain was dropped on the balrog, and it was assumed to be destroyed. Unbeknownst to every one, it was not killed only trapped. Until the dwarves dug too deep...
There are at least 12 to 20 of them hidden deep under various mountains in the East. Where the easterlings lands are and beyond but also far north in the unknown lands.
6:43 I remember reading the LOTR Weapons and Warfare book and in it the page reads “and possibly the last of its kind”. That line always stuck out to me. What do you mean “possibly”?
"Post Silmarillion Balrog", ok, i follow you. Cheers!
Perhaps they remain hidden buried in the roots of some mountains that thankfully no ons is foolish or greedy enough to delve
Sauron would technically fit into definition of "who is a balrog", as though his shape was often that of "fair elven", he could indeed change his form, though it was limited after the fall of Numenor, him joining Morgoth and being a Maia, fit with who a balrog would be.
Was Durin’s Bane actually trapped inside of Moria, unable to leave at the time the Fellowship encountered it?
I've always held that what the Elves know (and hence what they pass on to Dwarves, Men, and Hobbits) is not 'Gospel' Truth. That is, their knowledge is imperfect (if not occasionally deliberately deceptive). While I could accept much less than the thousands indicated in the Fall of Gondolin, I find less than a dozen unpalatable. The narrative of the Fall of Gondolin, though doubtless embellished for narrative drama, is nonetheless captivating for me, and I simply cannot accept that there were at most seven present for the sacking of Gondolin.
Well you're gonna have to brother
Because Gospel is supposed to be true lol? I know you didn’t make this saying but Gospel truth as in Gospel is supposed to be absolutely true is one of the most stupid concept I have ever heard of.
Other than I completely agree with what you say and that the elves aren’t 100% reliable with their lore telling.
Maybe there was a forgotten breed of troll in the Elder Days, the ‘fire troll’, and they were mistaken by the Elves as Balrogs? Akin to the stone trolls, the fire troll could have been a troll that lived in magma, not just ordinary stone.
Exactly what I wanted to say. I dont believe that there are 1000+, that seems a bit silly, but to say that maybe...a hundred? More or less? Or even some tens, maybe an amount around 50 or 60? I feel like that many is much more believable.
Calling Gothmog "Lord of Balrogs" would make it seem like there would be enough of them to make up a small community of which to be Lord over. Perhaps not thousands, certainly not, but a hundred or more VERY powerful creatures I feel would make a sizeable community or "kingdom."
Melkor convincing a few groups of maiar to join his side seems easy enough, especially when he has so many groups to pull from. Going around all the valar (14 of them?), he would really only need like 2 or 3 from each valars service to make up 50 or 60 balrogs. Bring that up to 8 or 9 from each valar and he's already over 100.
It's a bit fanciful, yes, but perhaps those who are said to have slain "several" balrogs at a time DID do so, but were only able to because the balrogs in this specific case were particularly weak maiar. Theres no reason to believe ALL maiar are as skilled or powerful at holding a physical form and making use of it as, say, Gandalf or Sauron were.
But its all just speculation anyways, and Tolkien would've certainly encouraged good speculation from his work.
@@hamzapetridis206 It's a figure of speech. To religious people it is THE truth and is untouchable, hence the saying. No need to overthink it.
Really hope we get to see a balrog in the series
Khazadum became very rich with mithril mining so I do hope we see them awaken durins bane at some point in the series 😀
Interesting vid man
As a Maiar wouldn't they be able to reform their physical bodies if given enough time?
Possibly not. Sauron seems to have been an exception due to his power and due to the One Ring.
I tend to think there was “a handful” of them, maybe a half dozen or so. Also I’ve always tossed around the idea that Sauron used the energies of some of these survivors to “supercharge” Mt Doom. This probably doesn’t fit in the lore, but it’s fun to think about.
I'll keep that in mind, thank you
After watching this video, I am wondering if Saruman knew/heard about Durin's Bane and forced the fellowship that was trying to go over the mountain pass in the first movie and go through Moria in hopes of ridding himself of Gandalf since Saruman thinks that Gandalf is his biggest threat to obtaining power/dominion in middle earth.
That was a movie invention so it's entirely possible that was what Jackson had in mind.
I was always unsure of where the ruins of Udun might be in Middle Earth. Might there still be Balrogs who went there to hide in the depths of the collapsed fortress somewhere?
By Udun I’m assuming you’re referring to Utumno. If thats the case the best two bets would be the two surviving portions of the Iron Mountains which were created to border Melkor’s kingdom. Those would be either the Mountains of Angmar, reaching out west from Mount Gundabad, or the Iron Hills, which lie far east of Erebor.
Given the fact that from Angmar the Witch King rose and drew power, along with its close proximity to Gundabad which is teeming with Orcs, I’d say thats the better bet. That being said the Iron Hills are also heavily colonised by Dwarves and they do have a history of picking the wrong mountains so may have just not dug too greedily and too deep there yet
Somehow this brings chills down my spine. I think you're right.
I would suggest that "Balrog" had been a catch all phase used by humans who were on the edges of the war between Morgoth and his enemies, but those who were more knowledgeable saved the name for a specific few of Morgoth's most powerful captains.
I could see maybe there could be some up north in what’s left of Angband but they’re asleep, maybe someone adventuring up north could stumble on one, and awaken it.
There was nameless things maybe the surviving balrogs went underground where the nameless was
In a world where you can be anything...be a post-Silmarillion Balrog.
Who can say what lies buried deep beyond the knowledge of elves, men, and dwarves?
Great. Concise. Thanks
Just a thought to connect two of your middle-earth mysteries videos, this and the Utumno video,
But if we went with the idea that Utumno wasn't submerged and is in fact burried somewhere in Forodwaith, maybe they are in there, which would give even more reason to not find Utumno and why, assuming it is burried, its better staying that way, don't need a "Moria 2 Balrog'scoming for you".
And assuming Utumno was submerged, maybe the remaining Balrogs did hid in Utumno and they perished when the Utumno was submerged into the Icebay of Forochel, leaving just Durins Bain who may have gone its own way or was seperated from the rest for some reason.
Turns out another Balrog exists and causes the accident at Centralia... oh wait SCP-1179
great video i would probably thin so but probably not the last balrog there might be some in the deep depths of the forodwaith or grey mountains or in the far north of the blue mountains keep up the great middle earth mysteries videos
I’ve always headcannon that at least 9 came to serve morgoth in the first age. Just as 9 mortal men were doomed to die and serve Sauron. Since we technically don’t know what would’ve happened in the 4th age and the “end times” for Arda wasn’t planned out we can assume that a few balrogs are still around hypothetically
Tolkien was maybe speaking about the belief of Balrogs shared in the universe. It might have been that the Elves and Valar had encountered and accounted for a specific number (ie: 7), but the true number and their locations were known only to Morgoth.
It may also have been that originally there were thousands, but many were killed off prior to the awakening of the Elves during the wars that resulted in the Valar imprisoning Morgoth the first time.
We should presume that more than one balrog perished in the war of wrath, and less than that number escaped. Two perished at gondolin, so perhaps three perished at the end of fa, for a total of 5 in fa, leaving perhaps 2 afterwards, one of which was slain by Gandalf
Seems reasonable.
I doubt there's more than one unaccounted for.
Though is there anything to stop "slain" Balrogs making themselves new bodies?
@@alanpennie8013 curious. Sauron gave up his corporeal form in Numenor, and reconstituted back home-Mordor, also gave up his body at the war of the last alliance.
When Gandalf died, he reconstituted in Valinor. If this is a requirement, then the slain balrogs would have not been allowed to leave?
by why the exception for Sauron?
Very informative.
I really like to imagine that at one time there were many Balrogs. But that they were hunted down by Orome before the awakening of the elves. And more were then destroyed by Manwe and Eonwe after the destruction of the lamps. Leaving only a handful by the time Morgoth returned to Middle Earth.
I like it, thats another good theory on this matter!
Morgoth defeated the Valar in the destruction of the Two Lamps and they withdrew to Aman. Perhaps you are thinking of the War for the Sake of the Elves?
@@istari0 I’m referring to Tolkiens early notes on pre elven wars.
Interesting topic, from what I conclude is that the most reasonable conclusion is that indeed Durin's Bane was the last only, though I like the idea that at least one of the others escaped as well, possibly to Forodwaith or something like that. Thats why I dont mind too much that adaptations break this lore like Shadow of War did and like RoP will do now, though doesnt seem too fit with the lore that we had another Balrog loose wrecking havoc fitting with Celeborn's sentence in the LOTR that he havent "heard of Balrog since the Elder Days".
But a Balrog is hella cool, specially done in the style of John Howe/Peter Jackson, which is not lore accurate but still looks amazing!
Yeah, I think it's acceptable to follow the "rule of cool" when it comes to Balrogs.
if one did survive im guessing it would have fled as far from Beleriand as possible. Arda is a very big place. There's plenty of other mountain ranges for one to potentially gain access to the root system under the world especially in the far east of the world. In my head canon Lungorthin is still alive somewhere biding his time until the final battle.
There were as many as followed morgoth after morgoth's death metal verses in the song of the world, most perished at the north war, Durin's bane tied with gandalf in death only for gandalf to recieve new instructions a new coat and less restrictions on his power levels. The last 7 I assume are all hanging out in morgoth's underground city-palace.
To me, this is one of those things Tolkien never finished propagating his final thoughts throughout the Legendarium. Trying to reconcile even 7 with what else was written elsewhere is a real stretch. It just seems to me that we need a few more than that to make things as consistent as possible.
Christopher Tolkien edited his father's notes to be consistent. There are at least 5, at most 7.
I go with the seven theory, though I prefer the idea that only Duran's Bane and another Balrog got away.
If I could speculate just a bit, knowing Tolkien was flirting with the idea of a sequel towards the end, Gandalf's warning of "other evils" after Sauron, and the hint of their being at least Balrogs besides this one getting away, that could have nicely set up a final adversary and a last adventure to preserve the piece won in the War of the Ring.
Alternatively, considering how openly hellish the Balrogs are as Middle Earth's version of fallen angels (being Melkor-serving Maiar), perhaps the remainders could serve a different role: remembering the Silmarillion is supposed to be a myth for England and is influenced by Tolkien's Catholic beliefs, perhaps the fiery, horn headed final maiar to serve as an active echo of the ancient evil could serve as his version of another ancient force of evil that we're better acquainted with.
So you're saying that the last balrog looked like Boris Johnson?
Celeborn’s surprise at the Balrog still being active in Moria doesn’t make that much sense. Just over 200 years prior, it had been seen by Dain. Do they just hibernate all the time?
*Come on, we all want to believe there were still Balrogs... and Dragons... and Trolls, and Goblins, and all those fantasy creatures that are ugly or scary or dangerous but we love them!*
It has been a while since I read Fellowship, but I seem to recall that in Lothlorien the elves liken Sauron to a Balrog and say something along the line of Durin`s Bane being the last of the Balrogs save the one in Barad Dur.
While I am aware he is not officially considered one, Mordor as an extension of his being is known for being a land of flame and shadow (literally encircled by the Shadow Mountains). Also, once he cannot assume fair form he seemingly begins to revert to a Balrog-like form: larger than man-size, burns Gil-galad with his black hand.
As Morgoth`s top lieutenant, and the mightiest bar maybe Gothmog, the elves may count him among their ranks, since the Noldor were the ones flailing about Belleriand, accusing everything that moves of being an enemy, giving them Sindarin names/titles (not the Valar, who are the only that could distinguish between his servants properly).
Take a look at how Tolkien describes Sauron in the Valaquenta. He's not a balrog.
If a balrog is a maia, then what happens when they die.
Great picture by Manuel Castanon
theres another balrog that survives into modern times in the 10th age as a street fighter villain.
Good question!!!🙏😁❤️🤘
I seem to recall from the Simarillion that in the battle that deposed Morgoth it is stated that the Balrogs that survived sought refuge in the deep places of the earth. Emphasis on the plural. Therefore its safe to say that more than one did. Furthermore given that they were Valar corrupted by Morgoth they had an indefinite lifespan. Middle Earth even after the defeat of Sauron could not claim to have destroyed all his servants & slaves.
@Dan Beech Thanx correction Dan, however if memory serves the Balrogs were drawn from the third order which would not be the Maia (forgotten the name its been years). The five wizards were selected from that order & therefore Gandalf was able to defeat his dread foe. All the best
@Dan Beech Again thank Dan as mentioned it was 15 years ago I last read it. Best wishes
@Dan Beech Hi last time Dan. I'm 56 & a prolific reader. I have to sort through D Eddings, M Peake, R Feist & a plethora of other fantasy authors. Tolkien is still the man in fantasy for my tastes. His writing style & immense knowledge of language & mythology was incredible. The fact he was in the WW1 trenches makes Mordor all the more terrible. So all the best to you.
Legolas says, “A Balrog is come”, not, “The Balrog is come”. Potentially meaning that he, at least, believed there was more than one left.
What was Sauron's relationship to the Balrog of Moria? He commanded Balrogs in Morgoth's absence, but doesn't seem to in the Third Age. Neither did he order Smaug around. This is all background to Tolkien's statement that when Sauron set himself up in Mordor he put out a call for all evil things to join him. This would have been a natural point for any and all Balrogs to join him and become generals of his armies. But the Moria Balrog presumably wanted to keep ruling Moria. And any others, if they did exist, were not tempted to join Sauron.
I assume that Balrogs (and Dragons too) still saw themselves as servants of Morgoth, and did not wish to submit to one of his underlings. There's a cool quote from NoMe which states that many of Morgoth's first Orcs, who were still operating in the east, initially rejected Sauron when he tried to recruit them.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Poor Sauron.
Scorned by mere orcs.
I always liked more the idea of more numerous balrogs, not into thousands but at least hundred or so
One up in Angmar. South of Gath Forthnir. Trapped by the Blue Wizards. Don’t forget your hope tokens…
It can just be hand waved away by saying that when Balrogs were seen in great numbers that it was spirits/beings of lesser power that resembled balrogs, don't know if this violates Tolkien's lore, but I'm not writing for amazon
We can always continue the Story and the other 4 can pop up
Im sure someone or Well versed group can take up the helm in True Tolkien style
In fact that would be a Great Honour
I like to think their one or more left out their somewhere. Maybe in the waste what is left of Utumno
Maybe no wings in New series maybe?
I mean, Durin's Bane was probably the last one simply because we didn't see one come out to help Sauron at the last big battle. You have to imagine that a Balrog would have wanted Sauron to rule so he could rampage free. Not to mention a Balrog on the battlefield would probably have secured victory for Sauron at least in the battle. Maybe that changes the outcome if Sauron can just send out a Balrog and a few trolls plus a smaller force and leave the vast majority of orcs behind his walls.
The balrogs are definitely powerful but it’s nothing that a well trained small sized army (probably 100 or 200 at least) wouldn’t be able to handle. It would be on par with fighting a fire drake like smaug. The mumakil didn’t really guarantee victory but they would have won against Rohan had the dead not shown up, but we still saw plenty of mumakil slain and a ton of resistance put up against them. And yes large swords, large spears Can kill a balrog, they’re not invincible. I’m thinking those spear catapults can reek havoc against balrogs.
I don’t think Sauron would be able to control the balrogs, and I don’t see any reason why they would fight for Sauron. Sauron and Morgoth actually differed a bit politically. Sauron wanted some fascistic style of order including slavery, basically an empire that strives towards peace once everything was conquered, and Morgoth wanted nothing but death and total destruction.
@@sdaftermath123 the only reason I think a Balrog might make a temporary alliance with Sauron is the same as Shelob might, 1) temporary protection and 2) the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Balrog probably knows the humans wouldn't leave it alone if Sauron goes down, eventually they'll come for him too.
As for a Balrog on the Battlefield I think if a Balrog was added to a small army it would turn the tide. Besides Sauron already had a big army but maybe now he can spare a Nazgul or 2 to guard Mount Doom.
@@randomguy2809 well it would obviously pick Sauron’s side if it was forced to join but I can’t imagine seeing durins bane joining a battlefield for Sauron when it’s one of the last of its kind. The balrogs are technically the same ranking as Sauron under morgoth. Almost as powerful too. Hell it killed Gandalf, that was a 50/50 fight
@@sdaftermath123 but also why not? If we agree that an army can probably take down a Balrog, then it has to know the elves or the men are going to try to kill it eventually. Why not just win the battle and eliminate the threat? Even if it's threatened by Sauron, the Balrog isn't afraid of the orks attacking him, he would wreck them. So the only real threat to a Balrog is an organized army like the elves or men, although realistically probably only the elves as they still have rings of power. That would be my play if I was a Balrog, just saying, go help Sauron win the big battle and let him push through Gondor and Rohan to finish off the elves, the last threat to the Balrog.
@@randomguy2809 I believe the remaining balrogs went into hiding after the war of wrath. I don’t think the elves would go “looking for it,” same reason as to why the balrogs wouldn’t look for them. But look at it this way, Sauron was raging battles for decades up until the events of the fellowship of the ring. Battle of five armies, dol Gol dur attacks on Mirkwood, constant attacks on Gondor ETC… durins bane never joined in. Though Sauron did remain hidden, so it’s possible Durin wasn’t aware Sauron still existed. And same vi versa
War of the ring was happening for decades before men and elves picked up on it.
Can you please just answer yes or no. I was planning to dig a hole in the garden .... but now I am not sure if thats such a good idea.
I imagine we will see Gothmog and ALL the Balrogs in this RoP series, and probably spot Durins Bane running off to (Moria) at the end of whatever battle scene takes place.
Who cares about RoP?
You know that the show is in the second age?
@@grimgrauman7650 You think a lil detail like THAT is gonna stop them? hahahaha.
@@YourOldUncleNoongah can’t wait for the dance battle to decide the fate of middle earth where Gothmog and Sauron do the choreo from white chicks
I kind of like it that he left loose ends. Although I personally lean towards it being the last since the story of the 3rd age is that of magic leaving the world.
It's not the last one. In the most recent version of the Silmarillion...a few escaped after the fall of Morgoth. Hence...there is at least 1 left.
Did Ecthelion not kill three balrogs and Glorfindel one? That's four plus Durin's bane. Five that we know of, plus whichever others escaped the War of Wrath.
I say there is at least one left after The Return of the King, waiting in the shadows of some forgotten cave or goblin tunnel. If Tolkien had seen clear to finish his Fourth Age story, I feel that a balrog would have been a great enemy for the new heroes to fight along with goblins and any remaining orcs.
If there were other surviving Balrogs, maybe they made it to the 4th Age. Perhaps as the genesis of a new Dark Lord that Tolkien might have introduced in *The New Shadow* maybe?
Who would win between smaug and durins bane?
Bro, gandalf didn't die against the Balrog. He went back to the respec screen