NICHE DUO - Everything You Need To Know
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- Опубліковано 14 лип 2024
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I've now had the Niche Duo for about a month, and after a lot of tasting and testing the time has come to share my full review of this highly anticipated but unexpected home coffee grinder. As part of this review I also answer many of the most common questions from the recent unboxing video, so this is one you won't want to miss.
↓CHAPTERS↓
[0:05] INTRO
[1:30] QUICK OVERVIEW
[2:31] GRINDING & BREWING
[4:40] QUIRKS & DOWNSIDES
[5:42] COMMON QUESTIONS
[9:27] FINAL THOUGHTS
[11:09] SQUARESPACE SPONSOR
[11:39] OUTRO
↓LEARN MORE↓
- Niche Duo: www.nichecoffee.co.uk/product...
- Video On Grind Speed: • COFFEE SCIENCE - How G...
- DF83 Review: • DF83 - Big Burrs On A ...
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According to some commentators the VAT question is not actually about VAT, but more so adding the cost of VAT to the grinder itself when shipping out of the UK.
Either I misunderstood the question asked during the unboxing or it wasn’t stated clearly. Regardless, this is clearly something to further press Niche on as there is obvious frustration.
Nooow you grabbed the bull by the horns man very well done!
Right. Some people think the sticker price should be reduced 20% when shipping since it is customary for the advertised price to include UK VAT.
IMO the confusion comes from the fact that the price is the same in GBP whether you are in the UK or not. Niche says if you are in the UK the price includes VAT, and if you are outside the price doesn’t include VAT.
This is the addendum we needed
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Niche importing the Grinders from China to UK and paying the UK import taxes. Now if you want to have the grinder being shipped to a third party country, why should Niche pay the (second) import taxes and not you. As far as I know, it's not like Niche is sending the grinders straight from China and would therefore safe the UK import taxes.
@@phillipp8367 No one is asking Niche to pay import taxes.
You can't say that Niche doesn't charge VAT for overseas models without ALSO including the fact that the overseas variants (all except UK) are priced higher when compared to the UK model sans-VAT. You are giving more money to Niche for nothing, and paying import duties based on an inflated price tag.
@@ziomals19 yes no niche stick with eureka
Indeed. I didn’t buy one for this reason, they are just ripping off outside UK customers.
@@dr.angerousyes this is my dilemma. Which eureka?? I’m stuck between eureka zero, oro mignon and not single dose, torn between libra, specialita.
HELP 😢
Niche doesn't charge VAT for stuff sold outside the UK.
What they do is take the UK *post-VAT* price and apply it for everyone outside the UK, and pocket the difference
Yeah, I gotta say they were really sneaky in the way they answered that question and a little disappointed Spro just echoed what they told him without digging in, especially since he made a point of mentioning it.
So outside the UK, we still pay the full price but it's without VAT instead of with?
@@freedomofnow you pay the full price plus your local taxes which get charged when you import it.
In other words dual pricing
@@thecount888 what sort of digging in do you expect from me on this? Im reviewing coffee equipment, not an import/export professional. Asking Niche for their profit margins or something like that is not appropriate, so I asked the one question asked on my unboxing about it and gave the answer I was given.
Furthermore, on their website when I add the grinders to my cart using EU and US models I got the same price. I don’t see this difference people are talking about, and being charged import duties is not uncommon.
Perhaps instead of putting unfair expectations on an internet barista, push Niche to have distribution partners in other countries to avoid all of this hassle.
As always, your videos are informative and fun to watch! Thanks!!!
this guy is soo professional ! nice way to explain the complexity
Thanks Andor, I appreciate that very much.
Thanks man! Solid points! Enlightening review!
Great review thank you. Niche has just released options to order with just one burr set at approx. £130 cheaper than with both. Significant change and sure will help sales, I’ve just pre ordered
Thanks for this review, it answered all questions I had!
Happy to help, thanks for watching and the feedback
While they don't charge VAT to non-UK customers, this means that they have higher prices for international customers because UK prices are the same while including around 20% VAT. While they're free to do that, I still don't like their business practice. I still like my Niche Zero which is going strong for about two years now. As for the Duo, I exclusively do espresso and I wouldn't be interested in filter burr set, so at that price point, there are more interesting options
Edit May 26 2023: Niche fixed their VAT policy.
I mean I know little about that. But I know margins like taxes and shipping (if it’s “free”) are built into items prices, but I don’t want to begrudge a business of their margins or making a profit as long as it isn’t unreasonable.
That said, my Zero is still a champ and the Duo is solid. Just doesn’t have the charm. Hard to get lightening to strike twice.
@@SprometheusI agree, nothing to add. Thank you for your work.
You want to talk about shady business practices? Buy a DF64 or DF 83 from China straight from the manufacturer. To bypass customs and import charges they ship those grinders as "replacement motor" Of course we as the buyer are then on the hook if customs decide to open the package and inspect it and realise the product is not as described on the export/import label. If they don't inspect it we are still part of a tax evasion scheme. Of course with the DF grinders, we can buy them within most countries under one of their renamed companies. Whichever way you look at it tho the Chinese DF grinder companies are shady as heck. At least Niche is transparent and isn't in the business of tax evasion and fraud.
@@ziomals19 👍
Thank you for confirming my concerns on Duo. You saved me 1000$ 👍Go Zerno
Zerno with its blind SSP's, ion generator, vertical burrs, auger innovation, build quality, etc etc is just so much better than the Duo in every way. Not much of a price difference either if you're going to upgrade burrs on Duo.
I got a chance to see the Zerno briefly at Expo. Curious to see if I can get a demo unit as it’s beautiful and quiet. I just haven’t had the chance to use it.
U can cough up a K 😂
I have 2 grinders, one I use for espresso and one for drip/pour over. The duo is tempting because of the shelf space it’d save. It’s a neat idea imo. As someone who swaps between brew methods regularly I’d love to just have one grinder that does it all. Good review
Agree save space is important
Great review ❤
Thank you Michael, much appreciated!
I was going to order this, but ultimately I feel like other grinders on the market out perform it for the price. I think the new TIMEMORE grinder basically wipes the floor with the niche duo. Better design, better flexibility, and variable RPM. The original Niche was so far ahead when it came out, but, the market has caught up and I honestly expected more from the company that created the Niche
What's the basis for "wipes the floor with". I'm not saying it doesn't, but that seems to be something that would require some actual comparison, no?
@@whosgonnadotcom Yea fair enough. From everything I've seen about both grinders, the new Timemore just has more and its significantly cheaper (currently). I've not seem direct head to head comparisons between the two grinders but given the early impressions of both grinders I think the difference in the cup will be very minimal. Really, the differences between many grinders is very minimal. The extra features and better design (nice magnetic doodads, the fancy knocker, variable speed, etc) just make the Timemore look like such a better choice to me personally.
@@sandys-channel and that makes sense to me. A lot of it probably will come down to pricing.
@@whosgonnadotcom if only someone had access to both grinders to do a head to head comparison 👀👀
Have been thinking of upgrading grinders, the Niche Zero was a finalist contender until the DUO came out, but I had the similar concerns with the DUO. Great video and quality content. Thank you! No DUO for me...
Happy to help, the grinder market has really expanded over the last couple years and we’re spoiled for choice.
well done, candidly informative thanks
A nice short-term option would be to sell the Duo with the option of either Burr at a reduced price - This would be more attractive.
Yeah they could include an extra burr carrier (probably not so expensive) and allow you to choose if you want a Mazzer burr or SSP etc. I don't think the Mazzer burrs are really that expensive though either really.
They have since done that
@@aabsc Yeah I noticed, they dropped the price (I think to be more competitive, but also because they stopped double-charging for the duties or something) and give you the option of having ONE single burr choice or both, which is a great idea.
I have a Zero and am saving for the P64. The Duo really seemed like a good contender as I just miss clarity and flavour when making pour-over on the Zero but meh, not convinced if I'm honest. Also, the weird construction with the Export duties just doesn't sit right with me. I contacted Niche and was told this adds about 160GBP to the price (so about 180-200EU), on top of the already more expensive price of the grinder. Buying the grinder and paying between 1000-1200 whilst for a few hundred euros more I can buy the P64, including 64mm SSP burrs (and excellent service too btw!), I'll just stick with that plan.
Great Vid as always and thank you for the openness in your reviews!
Cheers!
i have a zero and have loved it but have always wondered if it would make even better espresso with flat burrs. Thanks for your informative review which leaves me thinking that i'm happy with my beloved zero as is. if niche releases a new zero with the only change being flat burrs i might be interested but until then its just me and my zero :)
Very balanced review :)
Thank you Don, thanks for watching and the kind words.
I put money on the Timemore. Until then it will be my faithful Encore that is now 5 years and still going strong!
This is still a tough call. The Sculptor 78s or Niche Duo. I wish Niche gave the option of just buying it with one burr set. I don’t think most people as you stated will want to swap out the burrs on the regular. I am strictly looking for an flat burr espresso grinder. I did think the same thing on why didn’t Niche just make this a 64 mm grinder, so I can use my small collection of 64 mm sets I already have. The jump to 83 mm burrs does start to make things cost prohibitive for me. I do want my next grinder to be the last one I buy for my espresso set up.
I think they wanted to make a bigger impact, why settle and compete with the DF64s and all the other 64mm burrs when you can jump ahead with 83mm burrs! However, due to testing / production and them taking the time to make their product work well (keeping the similar design as the previous version!) I think the DF83 beat em to it, if they announced it earlier I think a lot of people might have waited for the Niche Duo rather than getting a DF83 or Backing the Timemore just because they have a Niche Zero, and like the brand, or like the design and idea.
Sculptor 78s is significantly cheaper I believe, and has more features (besides quick swapping burrs, they actually don't seem to like the idea of people swapping their own burrs!). I think the 078s is the best buy right now and also has slightly larger surface area on the burrs ! So not exactly smaller than the 83mm. I have a referral link to the Timemore kickstarter on my profile, considering using that if you do order!
I suspect that, at Niche, they thought a flat 64mm grinder may damage the Niche Zero market. Their only two products had to not conflict with each other in any way.
@@path72 I didn't think so initially but you're right if they did have a 64 mm equivalent it would likely be priced too close to niche zero and besides taking potential sales away for the zero model they'll also have more people wondering which one they should get over the other. If they're not already knowledgable on the differences between them.
Thank you my friend.
Of course, thanks for your continued support!
Sprometheus, appreciating the video quality! 2160P60 is crisp 👌
More expensive than it needs to be for non-UK buyers.
More expensive than it needs to be, for the majority of users, because it's only available with both burr sets.
Positioning it as a do-it-all grinder muddies the workflow simplicity that made the Zero appealing in the first place.
I feel like this release could have hit so much harder, but they're just too far up their own asses.
I have loved my NZ, and the bonus is that its good looks made it an easier pill for my spouse to swallow when I was spending hundreds of dollars on a grinder for the first time. The one thing I wish it had was more clarity. As I have gotten more into coffee over the last few years, I have learned that clarity is something I want and value (certainly more than texture). So I am still tempted to swap out for the DUO if for no other reason than to get more of that.
This. My other half was far more likely to accept a friendly looking gadget 😂
SSP just dropped 83mm Multipurpose burrs, and have preorders going for 83mm cast. It's a really good time to be getting in to the burr size, and being able to swap them so fast in the Duo means you could easily run 2 different high end burrs. I can't help but be amused that just like with the original DF64, the most interesting thing about this grinder (in my eyes) is it's capacity to run some desirable SSPs LOL
Thanks as always for the great review. I would be curious to see a bit more about the quality of the espresso and the filter coffee with the "best" all around 83mm burrs, whatever those maybe. I'd be curious how that would compare to the DF83 if they were using the same burrs. What I can't quite tell from all the reviews i'm watching is how similar/different the outcomes are from grinder to grinder if the burrs are held constant. At that point, is it all about feel/look/workflow because the quality in the cup is equal? Obviously RPM/power/torque plays a role here as well, but it does get overwhelming when thinking about an eventual upgrade.
Thanks Scot. The tough thing is the “best” all around burrs is always going to be something up for debate.
When it comes to the DF83 vs Duo, even though I didn’t swap in the Mazzers, I’m confident that the main difference you’d find is based on the RPM. As I said in the the video, the DF83 spins at around 1400 and the Duo at 530. In my tests on RPM I found slower created more consistent grind sizes, faster made more fines. And this affected the cups where slower RPM made more clarity focused cups, faster more complexity.
Great review! Thanks for checking out the burrs. Do you plan to do a review with the SSP burrs installed?
Thanks Bruce. I may eventually get around to it, but I've actually committed to sending my Duo to Sworksdesign for him to work on creating a conical burr carrier for it.
@@Sprometheus -- interesting idea.
When a UK customer buys Duo, Niche pays the UK government £160 in taxes. When a non-UK customer buys a Duo, Niche pays no tax, but the customer pays tax to their government when they pick up the grinder. Where's the £160? In Niche pocket.
Of course Niche is not responsible for taxes in other countries, but it would be fair to reduce the price by the amount of tax, because at the moment I pay tax exactly like a UK customer (just not to the UK government), but on top of that I throw in Niche free £160. No, thanks but no.
I ONLY drink filter brew. The Zero is great, Ive had it for 4 years. But for me, the flat burr is better for what I need. The Duo with the dedicated no nonsense filter burr is the grinder I wished the Zero originally was. So the Duo IS the better grinder. It lacks nothing. It's just better for some people, it's that simple. It's everything I love about the Zero, but better. No drawbacks at all, only upsides.
2 burrs, 1 grinder...Bruh knows how to internet.
At 36 I’ve been around since the days of dial-up.
... I didn't realise it till now
One guy, one jarring comment
😝😝😝
damn! 😂
Watching this waiting for mine to arrive ☕
What is the ETA on the retail Duos? A couple months?
@@Sprometheus huh, my reply was nuked by UA-cam. The ETA is for June, so.
I think the 2 burr options was in effort to tackle the Zero's main weakness: it being bombed in it's reviews for it's filter coffee. I agree that people will probably mostly use one burr set, but I think that's OK and by design. You can certainly still use the espresso burrs and get slightly less good filter coffee, just like the Zero, but if you don't make espresso, then you still have a reason to buy the Zero. I bought an Ode Gen 2, even though I really wanted the Niche at the time, because I didn't make espresso yet and it got terrible reviews for it's filter coffee. If the Duo was out at the time, I may have bought it because of it's dual purpose.
I think it was a tactic of their to expand into the flat burr market, as well as the filter market, which this seems to do pretty well. I get that there may have been a burr that could do both, but I feel like having 2, specific burrs plays into their brand recognition as well as the equipment fetishization of the specialty coffee brewers: More gear to play with! The brand is known for doing espresso well, and not filter. It wasn't marketed as a espresso only brewer, but that's certainly it's reputation Now, it's still 'specializes' in one thing, but with the option to switch between which one you want; filter or espresso, right out of the box.
I don’t think the issue is that they’ve made two burrs, it’s that they’re not giving people the option of which burr they want, so people who only drink espresso are paying for a burr they don’t need and vice versa. Personally I think the best approach would’ve been to let people pick which burr they want and pay an extra £100 or so if they want both. May have been a challenge logistically but that way they’d be pleasing everyone. It’d still be a niche DUO because it has the ability to do both, you’re just not forced to do both.
@@solomonsmith3658 the new burs, retail, is $79, which I'm sure Niche is getting a deal on. I don't think it would have saved much money, you're already spending $800 at best, but it will probably be much more than that after taxes, fees and shipping. I think having 2 options in the box is a cool idea that's not breaking the bank. It's not like it's a $300 SSP burr or anything
Super-happy espresso-drinking Niche Zero owner here - don't feel compelled to upgrade, even with the flat-burr options.
I have the Niche Zero, and still absolutely love it. The size, simplicity of operation and taste in the cup make it an easy choice. I use it for Chemex and Espresso and switch back and forth regularly. Flat burs could be nice, but for me that is really going into the minimal return on investment territory. The coffee it produces tastes good and I am happy with it.
Exact same situation here. 70% of the time making espresso with my NZ and v60 the other 30% and its been really great for both.
Waiting for Lance Hedrick to irrationally and possibly dishonestly trash it. 😂
Awesome review as always. Thank you :-)
I would prefer to see a 64mm Niche (not even duo), with option to select the burrs right feom factory (i.e SSP) for extra bucks.
I love my Niche Zero that I have used for over a year for espresso. While I would love to use it for filter grinding as well, the Single Dose bean hopper is way to small for 55 gm or 70 gm of coffee. It is pain to do 2 grinds or more because the hopper is too small. Does anyone have a fix for this? Thanks!!
I think the true flat burr version of Niche Zero is actually Option-O's Lagom P64. Overpriced but the overall quality of the grinder is insanely good.
Yep the workflow and nice-ness of that definitely matches or exceeds the Niche, if it wasn't for the price difference it would be the 'Niche killer' :D There is the DF64V now which is basically a P64 knockoff now. Not quite as powerful with less of an RPM range, but it looks pretty good for the price.
@@BensCoffeeRants I think Option-O should lower the price like $500 at least for P64 since there are too many competitors on the market lol. I'm actually kind of regretting buying P64 since there are much more budget-friendly options. Perhaps Timemore 078 or DF83 might have been a better choice within that budget.
@@dtonpbac don't regret. It was the original gangsta! It's still an amazing premium grinder that's as nice to use as the Niche Zero. You could likely resell it and have the money for a 078 and 078s heh
I don't like the plastic, but I wonder if the looser tolerances were intentional to fit more burrs. I know the SSP's ca be slightly larger than other burrs and the Ode Gen 1 had some issues fitting the SSP burrs because of this.
I think it would be good to hear Niche's reasoning behind these 2 decisions, but one thing I've noticed is that I don't really see a lot of community interaction or PR effort from Niche. We often see Doug Webber, Nick from Fellow, or Hayden Maunsell from Meticulous, to name a few; I feel like Niche is very tight-lipped with their communication.
I like the static for filter. It’s usually just chaf, so I just wipe it out and get rid of it
1) How does the timing between the Zero and Duo compare for grinding for espresso?
The fairly low RPM seems interesting, especially when there are quite a few high end domestic/commercial grinders that offer variable/low RPM.
2) When brewing for espresso, how does the Duo compare to a Mythos 1 for taste?
3) I was wondering if the Duo could be used in a coffee shop for espresso, if there were many single origin options?
Personally I’m glad they went 83 not 64 there already plenty on offer on 64mm, Turin/pro Barista already offer 3, Timemore offer one in two configurations, fellow have a filter grinder, then there Zerno, P64 and Orbit the market is really oversaturated. Niche world offer absolutely nothing there wasn’t already there other then design.
The Duo at least offer a product at a burr size with limited selection on the home market. SSP also just released additional two burrs the MP and Cast on top of the HU and Brew already there, meaning the selections of burr is identical to that at 64mm especially counting in the countless of burrs Mazzer offer.
I do agree the swapping design Is something I don’t really understand but it gives a spare part so I don’t think it’s a massive issue. The alignment I must say isn’t surprising but also no better then grinders costing half so it’s a bit disappointing but okay getting big burrs well aligned would probably have meant it would not be possible at this price.
Regarding price Niche run dual pricing a hugely criticised practice.
Thanks for this thoughtful review. I actually disagree on one point- I actually like that a grinder commits to one method or another. I was hoping the Duo came up with a pure pour over grinder and they did just that. In my experience, I've never been fully satisfied by a catch-all grinder. I do hope that the Niche Duo provides more prefitted third party burrs.
Thank you for the video. My Niche Zero is safe on my counter. No "upgrade" for me
You’re welcome, and thanks for watching. And yeah, it’s not an upgrade but I don’t think it was meant to be. It’s more of a side step for this who prefer flat flavor profiles.
Would've liked (perhaps in another video) the difference with espresso from the two. Does the duo lack body and is more clear forward and how it compares to the Zero
This must just be useful for people that go through phases of filter & espresso, I guess? Because I switch between the two often, the idea of changing these round for a different method is just crazy. I fear that everything has gone a little too far. I have the Zero and think the espresso is great and the filter good also - I just don't see the need such an overly-engineered solution to a non-existent problem.
Yeah I can see that, as I do have phases here and there but tend to land on espresso more often. I do think the swap is just a bridge too far. I get what Niche’s angle was on going that route, they wanted the best of both worlds, but it loses the simplicity of the Zero that just hit so well with so many.
Gonna wait for the niche squared; where you can run two different burr sets at once
Good review, I think the swappable burr carrier is a neat idea, but most people will probably stick with the espresso burrs, and it sounds like it still makes better coarser brews with those burrs than the original Niche anyway.
I think it's cool they went with bigger burrs, the 64mm market is a bit over-saturated with options. However I think they're a bit late to game and probably over priced now that we have the Timemore 078/s kickstarter (AND the 64mm models) coming soon and we have the the DF83 which is cheaper, maybe not as refined but pretty nice, and Turin DF64V which is basically a Lagom P64 knockoff now.
Surprised to hear the Mazzer burrs are better than the Italmill, I like the Italmills on the DF83, I thought they were kinda more traditional than the 64mm version for the DF64, less clarity maybe but more body, but nicely balanced and smoother than most 64mm options. I thought Mazzers were probably similar from what I heard, they're also traditional style but not sure I ever tried the Mazzers besides in a café maybe back in the day, it's actually a pretty affordable burr (vs SSP and other fancy options at least) so could be a relatively cheap experiment for the DF83. I believe there's other 83mm burr options coming soon though (ssp just mentioned they have a lab sweet style and a surprise: UNIMODAL / MP type burr! which should be awesome), the Niche Duo extra burr carrier might come in handy!
if anything Niche Duo should have gone with 80mm Lots of people seem to love that burr size (maybe due to the lab sweet burrs). It's actually larger than 83mm due to smaller inner diameter (more surface area) same with the 78mm burrs on the Timemores too!
I'm confused, we've seen motors stalling on other machines, compared to those machines the Duo:
Has a weaker motor, increasing likelihood of stalling
Has a brushed motor, increasing likelihood of stalling
Has larger burset, increasing likelihood of stalling
Spins at lower speeds, greatly increasing likelihood of stalling
Can not be run hot, can only be run from cold start, massively increasing likelihood of stalling
Yet doesn't stall, what is the secret sauce here?
It’s all in the gear ratio of the motor I believe.
Thanks guys, so why are other manufacturers spending so much on expensive motors when... You obviously don't need to?
Longevity
Niche does not have an expensive motor, I answered the above question and besides why are you in comments of every Duo video somewhat defending Niche and their grinders it’s weird. Is it because they gave you one for free?
It’s a very nicely put question we understand each other but you don’t expect me to believe they’ll want it back after 6 months while they let other keep theirs right?
Have a comandante that I love for filters and espresso, but wanted an electric grinder because I was making more espressos during the day.
The Duo came up the very day I was looking at the Niche Zero, and I really like the idea of a flat set with the reputation that comes with it.
That way I’ll have a conical and flat burr grinder - will be interesting to see how they compare.
Having a conical and flat is the ideal setup in my opinion. I personally love conical espresso and flat filter.
I think niche could have largely avoided this perception issue by simply letting users choose one set of burrs on purchase. Most users are going to only use this for exclusively espresso or drip, and the ones who do both regularly can then buy a second burr set or tolerate the espresso burrs for drip. With the way it is set up right now, it feels like you are forced to pay for a second burr set you wont use.
Also I think a universal burr option would probably have sufficed
Hello!So what would you recommend for espresso with medium to dark roasts-the Niche Zero or the Duo ?
And is there big quality difference to the Lagom P64 for espresso (medium/dark)?
Thanks
You have a P64 for Medium-Dark roasts? Which burrs are you using? Niche zero might make dark roasts more tasty, but I'm saying that as someone who doesn't like dark roasts. You generally want less flavour clarity :)
You say the zero is good for all brew methods but it’s notorious for being trash at filter. That paired with the vat scam from niche and the price tag, and having to change burrs for different drinks, I wouldn’t buy a niche again.
I guess what I would really like to know is how the Duo compares to some of the best alternatives in the 64MM space like the Lagom P64.
Yes, I find the video above bizarre because that is the obvious question in the midst of Zerno and Orbit drops happening RIGHT NOW! is whether the Niche can be the flat burr economical answer to those with it's 83mm burrs. Also, it answers the workflow issues of the DF64/83 crowd. I could care less about the burr swap, especially now that Niche has fixed that.
Still here mate, keep it up! ❤
Still grinding!
@@Sprometheus you really deserve a lot more views. Objectively I am still consistently impressed by your content and also by the progress you have made these past couple of years (not that you needed to tweak that much anyway!).
Fingers crossed the algorithm plucks you up and deems you worthy sometime soon. Honestly I don’t see why you’re not at least six figures every video.
Maybe they will release a Niche Uno, a flat burr version, with 64mm burrs, and allow some options for you to choose, you know, carve out your niche.
Be very interested in knowing how the sworks Zero flat burr mod performs vs the Duo espresso burrs.
83 is the new 64 (maybe 😂). I think the average burr size has been slowly increasing and 64mm size although will be here to stay, has gone from commercial size to now base line. As ssp is currently releasing more 83mm options and many afordable grinders for the home barista are coming to market, it makes me wonder how things will be in another 10 years
78 and 80mm burrs have more area than 83 because the 83 rotor is so wide
@@robojimtv That's true, it's still a lot bigger than a 64mm burr though!
@@BensCoffeeRants for sure! I know people asked why not 64mm but they would have to price it similarly to the Zero and this Duo is clearly meant to be an upgrade product.
@@robojimtv even my 74mm eureka atom burrs have 18% more cutting surface than 83mm 😅
Now they need to come out with a hybrid burr like the Versa lab. A flat conical burr set.
Your videos are just amazing @Sprometheus. You come across very trustworthy and that's a great trait for someone reviewing equipment on UA-cam. Keep it up!
Honestly I think that the whole 83mm duo idea is the worst take on a flat burr Niche grinder. Too fuzzy and most importantly too expensive outside the UK. A 599 pound 64mm flat burr Niche with SSP burr option stock would be so much more attractive...
Yeah, I just felt like too much and a lack of direction. I had a face to face convo with the Niche folks at Expo, and they are very kind and understanding of my concerns and the community’s. They had their reasons for going 83, but a single all-around 64mm flat burr niche would’ve hit the spot for me both functionally and price wise.
The more reviews I see the more I think I’ll be keeping my Zero and Ode/SSP combo.
I spent $12 on 3d printed parts to make my Ode gen 2 stepless, and now I make espresso with it. You can do the same if you want :)
My Ode is stepless: it doesn’t go fine enough for espresso for me.
@@edipisreks5535 Did you recalibrate it? Factory calibration for Odes has the finest spot on the dial far away from burr touch.
Should I have to buy flow control disc for Duo? Cuz Zero edition had already installed fc disc but Duo edition doesn’t ….
How are the SSP HU burrs in the Duo? Is there an improvement over the stock espresso burrs? Nice video, I've just ordered one.
Would you prefer the fellow opus and ode vs a niche duo?
Was thinking of upgrading to the Niche / or Duo
but ended up backing the TimeMore 78s for my espresso - hoping it's well worth it. Appreciate the honest feedback here about the Duo.
The Timemores are the best buy right now from what we know, however, I just hope they don't rush out the tons of grinders they sold and have quality control suffer as a result! If it works as intended, and as well as it seemed from the few existing reviews then it's a hell of a deal! No extra shipping / duties either supposedly.
The best review so far. In my opinion, the duo is made for the geeks and the zero is for everyday user. As simple as that.
I enjoyed the video even though I'm fairly sure I won't upgrade from NZ to ND. I did enjoy discovering that I'm not the only one who does the 'jiggle rock jiggle rock whack on the nose' routine to get all my coffee back out!
I've been using a Eureka Mignon Perfetto for a few years and don't love the workflow. The grind adjustment is pretty awkward with the size of the dial. Was looking forward to this review, do you think you'll be sticking to the Lagom P64?
Eureka’s adjustment knob is definitely one of the biggest downsides to their design that’s for sure. But I think they are designed not to be messed with much. Personally, I still really enjoy the P64, but the Sculptor is also a pleasure to use, and I got the DF64V recently and that one could be a serious contender.
While not a comparison video, I note the Lagom P64is no longer in sight. Will that be coming back soon? It’s my grinder of choice!
I would like the idea to upgrade the Zero with a 64mm flat burr set for light roasted espresso. Just to compare the result with the conical version. I do not know if that could work technically, but I will not buy and use two electric grinders. It is not reasonable and I don't have enough space in the kitchen for two grinders. For filters I use a Commandante and don't prefer an electric grinder.
Curious to hear what you think about the P64 now that the Sculptor and Niche Duo have hit the market. From what I’ve read/seen I still think the p64 is the best option for a filter/espresso with the best looks as well. Do you think it would be the best all around if you have to choose one grinder for filter and espresso?
I don’t think the Niche is even close to the level of the P64, and honestly even the Sculptor.
I think the Niche in general has, at least to me run it’s course and the Duo is just playing it too safe. The single dosing flat burr scene has progressed past what the Duo provides. I think for an all-around grinder the P64 is great and the build, feel and design is a winner all around, but the price is pretty high and she sculptor provides a lot of value for money and makes great coffee.
@@Sprometheus I think the Duo equipped with the new SSP MP 83mm vs the P64 with MP burrs would be a very interesting comparison. Presumably this would eliminate the need to swap burrs on the Duo (albeit in a very expensive and wasteful way), so you'd have two single dosing multipurpose grinders in a very similar price range.
Spro: how would you compare filter coffee between the duo and the Timemore 78s?
I’ve only had the filter from the 078 once at Expo, I liked it, it was very clean. But so is that if the filter burrs from the Duo. I can’t tell you which I’d prefer without more time on the 078 and the 078s, but I can tell you I don’t think you’d be disappointed with either.
Recently saw niche websites. They lowered the 799 pounds original presale price, to 649 for both burrs or 549 for either single burr. According to a lot of review in the past month which people hope they can select the burr with a lower price. That actually happens!!!! So now I am in the place of choosing this niche duo espresso burr, or p64. Anyone can suggest. I ordered a La Ma Mini that is on the way to start my home coffee experience.
It would seem they could best position it by finding a burr set that is filter focused, but espresso capable. Kind of the opposite of the Zero. Also shipping two burrsets with it seems to just make it more expensive.🤷
Hey guys,
I ordered the duo and am having second thoughts. I have a question that people seem to be avoiding to answer. Putting aside work flow, aesthetics, and price, I really want to know the best flat bur grinder. I simply want to know what makes the best balanced espresso. I’m considering either the niche duo or the Lagom P64 (that’s my price max). Perhaps there’s others in the run for that price range, but I’d love input. Any help is much appreciated!
best is subjective most grinders from a hand grinder up to a 6000 titus can make greay coffee, dont over think. you made a great choice
Hey what scale are you using?
How does the Duo flat burr set compare to the Zero flat mod from Sheldon?
I would like to see a review the focused less on the "Duo" aspect and more on the coffee a flat burr Niche produces. I think the Niche decision to sell single sets was after your review, though. But yeah, less interested in that stuff and more interested on the coffee it produces vs conical Niche. And then Niche flat vs Lagom P64.
I drink espresso from a sage oracle. The grinder is average. I was homing in on a zero then the duo appeared. I’m lost on what to buy now. Do i need flat burr that much?
Still a fantastic design and I only drink espresso so I would dial in one burr and leave it, not a problem for me. I don't know how many people switch back and forth, most are in the habit of one or the other every morning so it's good to come with either option when you start.
I think in an ideal world a Niche Zero for espresso next to a Duo with filter burrs would be a very solid set up. But considering the espresso burrs make solid filter I don’t see why many folks would need to change regularly.
@@Sprometheus A lot has been said of the fines produced by the Zero and apologies if you mentioned this in the review and I somehow missed it but does the espresso burr in the Duo produce noticeably fewer fines than the Zero?
Using the zero I frequently switch the dial between espresso and filter. It's a rare day that I don't make at least one espresso and one pour over. With that said would I be likely to swap the burrs every time? Probably not.
@@Sprometheus My "ideal world" Niche based setup would be a Duo with SSP HU in one carrier and the new SSP 83mm Multipurpose that was just released in the other. I'm still waiting to hear how SSPs perform in the Duo (or what the new 83mm MPs are like at all)
To be honest, I make pour over and espresso every day. Each fills a moment of my morning that I enjoy. This seems ideal.
How is niche duo espresso burrs in milk drinks/alt milk drinks?
I was one of those asking about VAT and while the info in the video was flawed, I am still thankful that you shed light on it. I saw some haggling down in the comments and get where they were coming from, but you stand corrected so I don't have any qualms.
You "could" have put in more effort like they say, but we got deadlines and mistakes will happen no matter what. Hence, I think it's better to make mistakes and fix it rather than omitting it entirely.
Thank you.
I agree that for me it will be inconvenient to be swapping burrs.
4:24 ASTÉRIK
I am not seeing the p64 on the counter..is the new niche the new go to?
Nah, it is actually directly behind me next to the Bianca. The Duo is fine, but it’s no P64.
I agree, Niche should give us option to choose, an extra burr set in the drawer collecting dust is creazy
lower price choosing one of the sets of burrs
I’m sure they’re seeing these comments and taking that feedback to heart.
@@Sprometheus would rather have two grinders refined for their specific innate strengths… perhaps a bundle price encouraging buying two grinders! 😳
You know it’s a true test if you grind green coffee. That was almost a little frightening.
Yeah, gotta say I makes me a little nervous too.
I agree with you with the niche kinda losing its "Niche-ness." There is this element of redundancy with the whole duo thing.
Great video btw. In summary the duo costs way more to the other flats while forcing you to buy 2 burrs which one you may never used.
Up until recently I don't think you could get a 83mm burr grinder for less than $2000 but now you have the DF83 and Timemore078's which may be a better value.
☕☕☕
Love Is Important
Indeed. Cheers my friend.
Im not sure how you could say the burr swap is complicated. I'd think that has to be the easiest way to swap burrs on the market.
Agreed on 64mm. Would have been cool to have seen true 64mm magnetic hot swap carriers. The cost savings from running 64mm would have enabled them to have a toolless magnetic design, giving users options for swapping out burrs on a whim.
if I can afford the duo as an espresso only drinker, I will probably swap out the brew burr for the SSP...
So the real question is, the duo or the p64? :P
They are charging VAT for offshore shipments. The price shoiuld be 20% lower without VAT.
I feel like Niche joined the flat club at a really bad time since it seems like there’s almost an abundance of flat burr options at this point and the prices are quite competitive. I think it would’ve been cool to see an option to only buy one of the burr sets and can buy the other if desired to make the price go down a little. Also what does the phrase “pony boy” mean at the end of your videos? Sorry if I’m mishearing it.
Yeah there are a lot of flats hitting the market with some seriously solid pricing, and some more options. In the end I think in the end a single set of a burrs and a lower price tag would’ve made this a bit more approachable.
“Stay golden Pony boy” is a phrase from the cult classic The Outsiders, I just changed it to “Stay caffeinated” for fun. Doesn’t mean anything, just a little recognizable catch phrase.
@@Sprometheus Great movie!
You have to look at grinder with 80+ burrs, there are not many with same price range. Excluding 078 which is unique size timemore intended to only sell their burr with no competition.
DF83 seem to be the only one that is close in price but with 1 burr, then people is going to buy SSp which will cost another 350$. Now it will be more expensive than Duo and not easy at all for interchange.
@@messy113 time for a rewatch! The book was equally good, if not slightly more touching.
Its becoming absurd with all these grinders being released, most are all diminishing returns at best. However they all are nice to have in their own way
Tell me about. I feel like I’m a full time grinder reviewer. But I’ve got some solid leads on espresso machines landing soon so I’m ready to mix things up a bit.
Yeah it's weird the forced swappability of the burrs. Especially when Mazzer released hybrid burrs for both a year ago and they could just go with that.
@@cuprajake1 me too
@@cuprajake1 it's K151i. The same size but hybrid geometry for espresso and filter. Haven't been able to get my hands on pair.
@@dominikcoltko3518 Some burrs can do either very nicely, others suck at one thing and are good at another. But maybe it is more ideal to have one burr set (or grinder) for one thing and another burrset or grinder for another where each can excel at what they do best!