Usually a loco with wheels closer to each other can handle tight curves, the drawback to a shorter wheelbase is hunting oscillation happens more on it vs a longer wheelbase. Also you should've done the minimum radius for coupling since some yards can have engines like the Pecketts and SECR P class and little space.
Yards also have the problem of the points. I suppose somebody making their own could try to build a shorter radius version. I remember seeing very old articles about that, and I think you would need some purpose-made jigs to bend the rail, Also, the materials would matter, but steel. nickel silver, or brass? Would the bent rail need annealing? On real railways they use gauge widening on tight curves. Partly it reduces the side wear on rails and flanges. Because of the wheel profile, there's a slight taper, it can also affect wheel slip, but I look at the math on that in the research papers I found, and I get a headache.
Similar story - 230mm curves for my model trams. Some locos will still make that curve too :p I used a laser-cut stencil to make the curves on soldered PCB sleepers, with room gor transition curves... I'm so happy with the trackwork :)
@@LordPhobos6502 I had a wooden track setter laser cut for me which sits between the flexi track rails. I had two made actually with the correct spacing for Hornby tracks so the ends of the curves met the straights and points correctly. you can run old Hornby bo bos on the curves and I'm currently shortening a bubble car.
This is the answer to my prayers! I’ve seen a channel called Budget Model Railways do an 18-inch-wide loop layout so about 16” for a full 180 degree turn. The childlike joy you show when Smokey makes it round that -2nd curve is hilarious. More experimental videos please! - The Caledonian
I wonder if it might be interesting to see how larger loco's would get on with the original curve? Tender loco's, carriages, wagons etc. Could a small layout cater for an A4? Just a thought.
@@SamsTrains Just use the same piece of wood with all the curves already attached. Could even screw down one of those Mehano controllers and wire them all up.
@@SamsTrainsMakes me think about the Port of London Authority system around the Silvertown area . Even Tate & Lyle had a connection to British Railways. However we won't linger on the failed attempt to run bulk sugar tankers disaster. The Train of Tankers was "Lost", a shunting error !
Sam’s Trains: uploads a new experiment video. Me: How could he have known I needed to relax after a stressful week at uni? Thanks for being here when we need you Sam.
Great video Sam. I've seen others make incredible micro layouts using curves similar to this but you really pushed it to the limit! I've always wanted to have a go at a minimum circuit layout, maybe I'll have to try it out now! Thanks for sharing with us 😃
I remember when I was 6 years old, my Dad made my layout with 'Play Craft' curves which I think came from a clockwork trainset.They were a lot tighter than 1st radius curves. My good old faithful, Triang, bright yellow 0-4-0T 'Connie' loco was more than happy to go round them. At aged 6, it regularly went round them virtually at the speed of light. This loco was was played to death. I loved it. *(Just been on Google. Playcraft track was designed for French HO scale in the 1960s)
You hit the nail on the head Sam. Many people don't have space for 3rd or 4th radii. So 1st and 0 radius are a God send. Brilliant experiment. Thanks Sam.
@@SamsTrains Looking forward to this, can be done as Jennifer kirk has done this with a locomotive, I'm sure you're more than capable of making it work with a train.
@@SamsTrains They made 228mm/9in radius curves, and it works fine. And another with 7 1/2 in/190mm curve radius, here is the video : ua-cam.com/video/pN1qLwyn_bg/v-deo.html
Greetings from America! I liked this experiment quite a lot, it reminded me of my grandfather's stories of his old workplace in St. Louis Missouri. He worked at a boiler fabrication plant and they had rail lines running inside the building to help transport their work. Many of the curves were so tight that only a little two axle loco would run on them and the freight cars (wagons you call them) would squeal as they went around the curves. Good memories, keep up the good work, I'm a huge fan of British steam locos. Cheers!
@@SamsTrains Try to leave all curves at board for future testing... maybe nail curve track to board - make it more rigid. Try with wagons maybe as well? Will be interesting how tight it can be for limited room ;)
This is a late comment but I do want to share this: I tested this theory on a bunch of trains and quite shockingly my Hornby P2 Cock O’ The North could easily handle curves between radius 0 and 1st radius. Any tighter than the curve I tested it on made it derail due to its massive wheel base. My Flying Scotsman however handled up to radius 0.
My “Strathyre station” layout has a curve that I would call -2nd radius curve. The curve goes round a board just over 30cm wide. Another thing, I thought that you should create a bloopers series!-Das Mann
Smokey goes round my christmas tree in a 20cm radius track. great experiment, looking forward to building my layout dockyard with this small formfactor
Hi Sam, great video! This is something I have been wondering about! Any chance you could do a continuation and test what kind of loco's can make 1st radius curves despite manufacturer recommendation such as some larger steam loco's, dmu's/emu's?
Hi Sam. Great fun. I did, some years back, have an exhibition layout "Yarmouth Quay" based on the Great Yarmouth Tramway. It was 2ft by 4ft with 8ins radius curve, inset into the road. Admittedly the track was all hand laid and there was some(?) gauge widening! But a Mainline 03 could do it with all six wheels flanged. Buffer lock? Yes hand knitted wire couplers, fully automatic, ex office paper clips provided the wire. The layout did many shows over five years before being sold on. Even went to the Great Yarmouth show once....
Thanks very much Andrew, that sounds fantastic - 8 inch curves must have been very extreme, great to hear it turned out well though!! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
"This is all completely innocent!" Mate I just about lost it at that lol. Although the innuendo didn't help, I will admit, my mind went into the gutter, at full steam and derailed around a curve!
I'm hugely glad I came across this video as I am setting up my track to run my Hogwarts Express (4-6-0) on 1st radius curves as it is the only way to use my shed space. So far it has run on my test layout okay but I have heard other railway video presenters saying that if you use a tighter curve than what is recommended that you will burn out the motor and cause other damages to boot ! As I consider you as the 'expert on testing trains' I would seriously appreciate your honest opinion. All your videos have been so worth watching as I learn so much from them. Thank you, Rick the Bulldog from Digon Alley Station.
The mathematics of track geometry is absolutely fascinating. Other experiments to try is running 0-4-0's with long wheel bases. running 0-6-0's. bogied locos. Or various rolling stock and watching how the cuppers interact. there's just so much to try.
Back in the 1980's there was a train set that would do just that. I believe it was made by Tyco. You would build most of the layout on the level but 1/2 half of an oval would extend vertically off of the table. It was advertised going up a wall to support the force exerted by the train. A friend of mine had one and I remember it working fairly well but the train had to be run at near full throttle. If you find one or remanufacture one I would love to see the video.
What a wonderful experiment Sam, confirms why the real size locos were built to operate on tight curves....and how well these small locos have been made....Bob
Phew... for a second i was afraid the loco’s on the shelf above the staircase we’re gonna take a dive, but luckily you managed to squeeze through... nice test, i have some fleischmanns (1/87) that’ll accept a 357mm curve, although i have 1 streamlined class 03 that refuses to do it.
This is exactly what these small wheelbase locomotives were designed for. Some dock yards had seriously tight curves, originally designed for the likes of horses. Usually they'd just have a narrow gauge line in that case, but some places wanted to just offload or load ships directly from the regular rolling stock.
For years Jouef made a 12inch radius (smaller than hornby first radius), modellers often used it for tram lines/dock layouts. If you only have room for first radius it's handy if you get some as it's set track that allows you to add in an inner line on a first radius layout - almost everything that was made in margate to go around a first radius will also go around it without any problem. I used it on my layout before to achieve a fifth inner line, the outer 4 being standard hornby 1st-4th radius.
1) I think that you might want to let Hornby know of your discovery , Sam... as this is genuinely impressive. Perhaps 0 Radius and -1 Radius could be the new minimum for UK HO/00 gauge layouts! 2) Perhaps this test could be redone with 0-6-0 tank and tender engines , with the 0 Radius and -1 Radius curves?
Thanks mate - it would be awesome to see Hornby release say an industrial train set with ultra tight curves - could open up a new market there! Great idea - I should really have tried other engines on it! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Exactly right Sam ... I have the second radius curves ... but I can never fix them to a baseboard due to lack of space ... definitely food for thought .... Crazy !!
When I was a lad Traing trains ran on 13 1/2" raduiss curves. Hornby Dublo on 15". The sharpest curve on any standard gauge line in the UK was Gotham Curve on the Cromford and High Peak Railway at 55 yds (2 1/2 chains). The same railway also had the steepest adhesion worked incline - Hopton Incline - at 1in 14. Only certain 0-6-0 locomotives could negotiate Gotham Curve and the minimum radius curve stated for most mainline locomotives was 5 chains. There would have been sharper curves in some industrial settings. Food for thought - Gotham Curve works out at 660mm radius in 4mm to the foot scale. 5 chains and wider 1320mm and more.
Reminds me of a very old lego train set I have which uses a few metal rods between the tracks. The contacts on the train were so worn that it would struggle to drive even on straight track, though. Good times.
hornby: our engines are designed for radius 1 curves bachmann: ok yeah we will design our engines like that too marklin: **laughs in utterly small corners**
The problem with tension in the track looks to be more from the sleepers joints than the rail. I think clipping all the connections between sleepers would help. I would also cut a guide out of a sheet of wood with the right radius to bend the rail against to get a smooth transition.
Just started getting into the hobby in the past 2 weeks or so, and as a man who greatly enjoys slightly scuffed DIY kinda stuff, these tighter turns are right up my alley. This actually massively helps me in terms of just how compact I can make a small railyard I have planned. Hopefully I can snag a nice used model as my first to use as a shunter.
Fantastic! Good luck! Just remember not to make the curves too tight, as it can stress the wheel flanges. Also take couplings into account when you're designing curves - typical NEM couplings can usually only handle wider couplings! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
As a side hobby I'm into tram models myself. Trams run around very tight curves in the prototype, for example turning into a side street in a normal street setting. Some trams run around 15m radius in the prototype which would be 197mm in OO scale or 182mm in HO scale . I think back in Victorian days there were 9m curves, which would be 118mm in OO or 104mm in HO scale. There is a company in the USA called Electric Avenue who supply curves with something like sub 20cm radius. I have bought some but haven't yet got around to testing them. The tracks come as a kit and are a bit fiddly to assemble. From what some people on the internet forums advise me, I need to spread the gauge somewhat to make that possible. So I'm really surprised to see you do this with fixed gauge track and not getting derailments (apart from that one dodgy rail joint)
Industrial Locomotive designs were often very small, strong, and tough. The Beckton Gas works were on a realistic size tight like -3 radius but the engines had wheel bases just long enough to cope. They also had Dumb Buffers (which are not sprung really they are just wood blocks at the front) this and chain couplings gave them that skill. But even so that was a great test models do not always do as well as prototype.
Imagine the industrial switching micro layouts you can make with such tight curves? While rolling stock can't handle the smallest turns for buffer locking and decoupling , clever design could see locos using them to get into service or storage areas.
One of the most common laments of those building a major model railway project is that they wished they did make the curves so tight a radius in places. Tight curves more suited to throw away test layouts to convince you how limiting they are for running actual trains. At least a small one may not have cost much money learning the lesson. Even on Hornby's channel their new high detail large locos and coaches look a joke going round the corners they use as their standard curves. With lack of space it is better to have a plank type shunting layout like your O scale system.
Love this. I am a toy train nut so tighter curves are pretty normal. Also like seeing what people can do with micro layouts in these smaller scales. It may have been said elsewhere in the comments but the next step I think is adding a couple carriages (that is what you guys call them, right?) and seeing what radius they can make. Toy train hint: typically our couplers are attached to the trucks, not the car frame. Just a thought if you wanted to take it a step further! Cheers!
Very interesting video once again, nice to know that Hornby's little engines are so capable. I can relate to 7:26, sometimes I just lose it too when doing something as ridiculous as this! You can't help yourself! 🤣
Hey Sam, out of scale, long wheel flanges are fantastic for very tight curves and/or any curves and turnouts. That's why 00 Steam Locomotive front pony wheels are made "out of Scale". Australian Manufactures need follow this practice.
In the 1940s Varney, an early manufacturer of HO scale models here in the USA, had a demo of their small 0-4-0T dockside tank running on a circle of track where the inside "Rail" was actually a silver dollar, which is an inch and a half around. Figure HO scale track is 5/8" gauge, and you got a circle of track roughly three inches in diameter. THe purpose was to show off just what this little locomotive could do. I also remember something about a similar locomotive back on a circle of track built around the brim of a fedora hat. Again, more for fun and to prove it could be done in the first place.
I have used Hornby 0-4-0 units as the basis for a freelance 0n30 urban tram system for several years on 6 inch (153mm) radius hand laid (soldered onto copper clad sleepers) curves set into street running layout built for a Tram Fan some years ago. Might suggest an internal rail system inside an industrial complex would be an interesting show piece. At the time, Hornby locomotives, like most others also, had the "cookie cutter" style flanges and never caused a hint of a problem on the street corners. Hand made turnouts also had nil issues. I am told that the newer, more modern flanges that are now available, are also not causing any grief on the layout.
That's fantastic Frank, I've heard about that being done before, they're fairly decent chassis aren't they? That certainly would be interesting - I'd love to build something like that one day! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Good fun and quite amazing how tight the curves can be. I had to make some really tight curves for my Christmas village track. The 0-4-0 makes the curves but I had to cut the buffers off the trucks and remove the hook from the couplers (replacing with a small loop of wire). I just didn't have the space to make the baseboard any deeper...but it works :) And don't even get me started on the TV set layout. I managed to squeeze 19ft of N gauge track inside an old TV set....lol. All the best mate :) Tom
Thanks a lot Tom - yeah that's the issue isn't it? Trying to couple something! At least I know what to do if I try this again - thanks mate! Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I tried to build a micro layout a while back that had curves varying from -1 right down to below -3! I made my own coupling system out of cake wire (A very thin wire used in making cake toppers) just so that I could run my trains. Those trains mainly consisted of A Peckett and some very kit bashed wagons. Also, at the tightest point my locomotives slowed from half speed to a crawl. Do not try this at home kids!
From the CAD era: R1 is a 360mm radius, and the minimum you can do with NEM close couplers. Pre-CAD you did have 250mm radius as official starter set track, but you are limited to using non-rigid couplers. You can do tighter curves... Cut the connection between the sleepers down to the minimum and use one piece of flex for the whole test track so that you don't have to use fishplates. And yes I did try the R250 in an undulating circle... Fleischmann tinplate can drive on two wheels
Fun Fact: TheUnluckyTug used the peckett (idk it’s name) to build 2 custom locos, one is his custom Percy (NWR #6) using the powered wheels, and his custom Edward (NWR #2) using the funnel.
Years ago I made a layout for my son on a 8 x 4 board, because that was the smallest I could go and have two tracks doing circuits, well a figure of eight. If only I'd known :-)
Great content as usual Sam... Couple of points - three actually: 1) Hornby will advertise the safest radius so that irate customers don't inundate them when Evening Star refuses to go around a right angle 2) You only needed the one length of flex track, it might have been better without the straights or the fishplates - I'm sure that's been pointed out 3) I really like 0-4-0s on dockside or factory layouts. Buffer lock should dictate the minimum radius - not tension-lock couplers which are an offence to nature
Thanks very much for sharing Matt! Yes absolutely right on 1, that must by why they do it! Appreciate the tips too, thanks mate! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Smokey Joe really is the Little Engine That Could. One thing that surprised me getting back into model trains was the increase in minimum radius over the years. My early 90s tender drive Scotsman came with 1st radius curves in the train set and runs no problem (meaning it would fit on a dining table), though that may be because the trailing truck is articulated (tender drive, obvs). They all seem to be fixed now; makes you wonder why they dropped that feature when they went to loco driven trains instead. Perhaps that could be the next test: smallest minimum radius of a tender engine
Yeah!! Very few challenges old smokey has failed! Yeah this is true - most locos are now 2nd radius... I reckon most could still handle 1st on well laid track! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
this would be like tracks in a dockyard or something, where they have to maneuver around things. Also, you could try doing the math on the circumference, and solder bendy track into circles to test smaller radius.
Dockyard modellers: You had my curiosity, now you have my attention
Never a truer statement spoken.
True
haha!! I'd love to make one of those now!! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Is that a Django Unchained quote? XD
It's "you have my curiosity now you have to keep my attention"
Next episode: Sam discovers micro layouts and makes one.
Ooh that sounds awesome - I guess I could now!! xD
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains "T" gauge
check it out.
Micro layouts can be done in any gauge! I've been successful running some 2-6-2's over curves like these.
lol nah he figures out model railways in scrap mechanic
Her: “I bet he’s thinking of another female”
Him: “what’s the lowest radius Smokey joe can handle?
They do say steam engines are female.
haha!! xD
If only images could be posted in UA-cam comments, I would make that meme.
Indeed !!
So, this is the translation...
Smokey Joe deserves an award. The “Curve Master”!
It is a mountain pony.
True!
Joe only made it around because he's very small
Thank you lol
SPOILERS!!!
Usually a loco with wheels closer to each other can handle tight curves, the drawback to a shorter wheelbase is hunting oscillation happens more on it vs a longer wheelbase. Also you should've done the minimum radius for coupling since some yards can have engines like the Pecketts and SECR P class and little space.
Yards also have the problem of the points. I suppose somebody making their own could try to build a shorter radius version. I remember seeing very old articles about that, and I think you would need some purpose-made jigs to bend the rail, Also, the materials would matter, but steel. nickel silver, or brass? Would the bent rail need annealing?
On real railways they use gauge widening on tight curves. Partly it reduces the side wear on rails and flanges. Because of the wheel profile, there's a slight taper, it can also affect wheel slip, but I look at the math on that in the research papers I found, and I get a headache.
Yeah that's right, thanks a lot for the info! I will have to try this some time with 0-6-0s! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
x-8-x locos have too many flanges on all of those drivers. Front pair and back pair ONLY, works.
I made a roundy round layout with 9” curves after being inspired by budget model railways
I am building one right now. Just awaiting some parts which will be here for the weekend.
That sounds awesome Jordan - what do you run on it?! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Similar story - 230mm curves for my model trams. Some locos will still make that curve too :p
I used a laser-cut stencil to make the curves on soldered PCB sleepers, with room gor transition curves... I'm so happy with the trackwork :)
@@LordPhobos6502 I had a wooden track setter laser cut for me which sits between the flexi track rails. I had two made actually with the correct spacing for Hornby tracks so the ends of the curves met the straights and points correctly. you can run old Hornby bo bos on the curves and I'm currently shortening a bubble car.
Sam: puts modern music in his video
Indy: Falls off his chair in utter disbelief...
haha I know right - what's going on!?? :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Anyone else hoping the track would come loose and what ever was on it to go flying?
...No just me
haha it did cross my mind... I was wearing goggles after -2nd radius! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The guys over at Budget Model Railways have done some excellent tight radius layouts for 0-4-0s - but don’t think even they went this tight!
They got an old deltic to go Around 0 Radius too!
Yeah I heard about those - I'll have to check that out! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
7:44 Gee whiz! That looks like Minecraft style track now lol.
haha I know!! Maybe I could build a minecraft layout?! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains My favourite Minecraft minecart is Smokey Joe
@@SamsTrains YES PLEASE DO THAT
This is the answer to my prayers! I’ve seen a channel called Budget Model Railways do an 18-inch-wide loop layout so about 16” for a full 180 degree turn. The childlike joy you show when Smokey makes it round that -2nd curve is hilarious. More experimental videos please!
- The Caledonian
haha thanks so much - really glad you liked it! I'll do more like this soon hopefully!! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
-3rd rails: You can't beat me.
Sam: I know, but he can.
*Smokey Joe has joined the battle*
I choose Pikachu
Class 40 respectfully withdraws from the competition!
haha I know right!! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Kijoikkk
@@SamsTrains jijkijkij
I wonder if it might be interesting to see how larger loco's would get on with the original curve?
Tender loco's, carriages, wagons etc. Could a small layout cater for an A4? Just a thought.
Yeah that is the big question - I might do this again some time!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Maybe you should use this for future reviews to show the limit a train could turn
Before either derailing or flopping off the track
Great idea!! If I had the time and space, that'd be an awesome feature to add! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Just use the same piece of wood with all the curves already attached. Could even screw down one of those Mehano controllers and wire them all up.
@@SamsTrainsMakes me think about the Port of London Authority system around the Silvertown area . Even Tate & Lyle had a connection to British Railways. However we won't linger on the failed attempt to run bulk sugar tankers disaster. The Train of Tankers was "Lost", a shunting error !
Sam’s Trains: uploads a new experiment video.
Me: How could he have known I needed to relax after a stressful week at uni?
Thanks for being here when we need you Sam.
haha thanks Scott, that's my pleasure mate - hope life is good at Uni!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
When you did 0 radius
Me: let me guess you’re going to go into negative radius numbers
*goes into negative numbers*
Me: knew it
haha you called it!! xD
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@___1205 can u stop plplease
Great video Sam. I've seen others make incredible micro layouts using curves similar to this but you really pushed it to the limit! I've always wanted to have a go at a minimum circuit layout, maybe I'll have to try it out now! Thanks for sharing with us 😃
I think you're approach with modular sections would combine really well with micro curves used offscreen like a fiddle yard.
@@andrewjames1190 Thanks Andrew, that's not a bad idea! I may have to implement that some day 👍
Thanks a lot mate, yeah I've heard about those too - I'd love to build one myself now!! :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Smokey Joe is the little engine that could! What a little legend!
Wonder if Hornby is watching..
I know right!! There's nothing he can't do?!? ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Not a problem, very entertaining ^^
I remember when I was 6 years old, my Dad made my layout with 'Play Craft' curves which I think came from a clockwork trainset.They were a lot tighter than 1st radius curves. My good old faithful, Triang, bright yellow 0-4-0T 'Connie' loco was more than happy to go round them. At aged 6, it regularly went round them virtually at the speed of light. This loco was was played to death. I loved it. *(Just been on Google. Playcraft track was designed for French HO scale in the 1960s)
You hit the nail on the head Sam. Many people don't have space for 3rd or 4th radii. So 1st and 0 radius are a God send. Brilliant experiment. Thanks Sam.
I can hear the flanges screaming, “ouch”.
haha yeah... it was a bit painful at the end there! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Next time on Sam's Trains, Sam tests Hornby's ability to defy gravity by nailing the track to the ceiling
haha we'll see about that!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Further step affter this one : can we do model railroading in low Earth orbit. Featuring Sam in the ISS.
@@OlivierGabin looooooooool
@@SamsTrains Looking forward to this, can be done as Jennifer kirk has done this with a locomotive, I'm sure you're more than capable of making it work with a train.
Smokey Joe is the "Onion Bubs" of model trains. You can't not love him. Truly a perfect specimen.
haha you're right, haha!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Budget Model Railways has a layout that has ridiculously tight curves, you should see it! I like these experimental videos! :)
Ooh awesome - I will look into that! Thanks mate, glad you like them! :D
Cheers,
Sam :)
@@SamsTrains They made 228mm/9in radius curves, and it works fine. And another with 7 1/2 in/190mm curve radius, here is the video : ua-cam.com/video/pN1qLwyn_bg/v-deo.html
Sam was barely able to handy the shear size if his wood......
haha I know right!! xD
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
1:17 sam, being the youngest middle aged school teacher ever
haha!! xD
Fun experiment, crazy that they could go round that tiny last curve!
Thanks Chloe - yeah I was really impressed with that! :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Greetings from America! I liked this experiment quite a lot, it reminded me of my grandfather's stories of his old workplace in St. Louis Missouri. He worked at a boiler fabrication plant and they had rail lines running inside the building to help transport their work. Many of the curves were so tight that only a little two axle loco would run on them and the freight cars (wagons you call them) would squeal as they went around the curves. Good memories, keep up the good work, I'm a huge fan of British steam locos. Cheers!
Greeting Allen, really glad you enjoyed the experiment! That sounds fascinating - I bet he had some real tales to tell!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Can you try this with the larger locos I see my larger diesel locos get round first radius bends and I'm just curious how much they can take
Great idea Joey - I reckon they could take at least radius 0, maybe less?? :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Try to leave all curves at board for future testing... maybe nail curve track to board - make it more rigid.
Try with wagons maybe as well?
Will be interesting how tight it can be for limited room ;)
I made a layout for my brother and it's got 20 inches as a diameter and we can run triang 0,6,0 engines with no flanges on the middle set ok
Jesus
Wow, that sounds awesome - yeah the blind axles will definitely make a big difference there!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Now I want to build an OO gauge wild mouse coaster using the -3rd radius curves
This is a late comment but I do want to share this: I tested this theory on a bunch of trains and quite shockingly my Hornby P2 Cock O’ The North could easily handle curves between radius 0 and 1st radius. Any tighter than the curve I tested it on made it derail due to its massive wheel base. My Flying Scotsman however handled up to radius 0.
My “Strathyre station” layout has a curve that I would call -2nd radius curve. The curve goes round a board just over 30cm wide. Another thing, I thought that you should create a bloopers series!-Das Mann
Either a bloops video compilation, or a just a couple of them in the UA-cam shorts format.
Blimey, that is pretty tight - what sort of engines do you run on that?!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Well N gauge is now useless for more now 😂 great video Sam🙂
haha exactly!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
“There will be no silliness here today!”
Also him: SMOKEY JOE
Anyway have a nice day! -3801 productions :D
haha!! Thanks mate, glad you liked this one! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Smokey goes round my christmas tree in a 20cm radius track. great experiment, looking forward to building my layout dockyard with this small formfactor
If Hornby ever decide to go down the Narrow gauge modeling route, they should take tips from your good self. :)
haha thank you - I'm sure there's not much they could learn from me though!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam, great video! This is something I have been wondering about! Any chance you could do a continuation and test what kind of loco's can make 1st radius curves despite manufacturer recommendation such as some larger steam loco's, dmu's/emu's?
Thanks a lot mate - yeah great idea, that would be a great one to try! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam. Great fun. I did, some years back, have an exhibition layout "Yarmouth Quay" based on the Great Yarmouth Tramway. It was 2ft by 4ft with 8ins radius curve, inset into the road. Admittedly the track was all hand laid and there was some(?) gauge widening! But a Mainline 03 could do it with all six wheels flanged. Buffer lock? Yes hand knitted wire couplers, fully automatic, ex office paper clips provided the wire. The layout did many shows over five years before being sold on. Even went to the Great Yarmouth show once....
Thanks very much Andrew, that sounds fantastic - 8 inch curves must have been very extreme, great to hear it turned out well though!!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
"This is all completely innocent!" Mate I just about lost it at that lol. Although the innuendo didn't help, I will admit, my mind went into the gutter, at full steam and derailed around a curve!
haha guttermind!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Next project - ghost train layout...
Ooh that sounds spooky Mark!! :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam has posted another great video :)
Thanks so much!! :D
I'm hugely glad I came across this video as I am setting up my track to run my Hogwarts Express (4-6-0) on 1st radius curves as it is the only way to use my shed space. So far it has run on my test layout okay but I have heard other railway video presenters saying that if you use a tighter curve than what is recommended that you will burn out the motor and cause other damages to boot !
As I consider you as the 'expert on testing trains' I would seriously appreciate your honest opinion.
All your videos have been so worth watching as I learn so much from them. Thank you, Rick the Bulldog from Digon Alley Station.
The mathematics of track geometry is absolutely fascinating. Other experiments to try is running 0-4-0's with long wheel bases. running 0-6-0's. bogied locos. Or various rolling stock and watching how the cuppers interact. there's just so much to try.
Yeah it is actually - it's amazing that all of these models just work when they're released!!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains No problem. Have fun with your new urban trolley layout ;)
Next video: Can a model train climb a wall
haha!! Now there's a question!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Back in the 1980's there was a train set that would do just that. I believe it was made by Tyco. You would build most of the layout on the level but 1/2 half of an oval would extend vertically off of the table. It was advertised going up a wall to support the force exerted by the train. A friend of mine had one and I remember it working fairly well but the train had to be run at near full throttle. If you find one or remanufacture one I would love to see the video.
He's kind of already done this with his sprocket loco 😂
smokey Joe: Senpai did i do good?
SamsTrains: better than i had hoped i was expecting you to derail on less of a curve!
What lol
@@smokeyjoesrailroad i have lockdown syndrome i have been given the cure but its gunna take a while before the effects kick in i bet XD
haha!! I feel exactly the same!! xD
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
What a wonderful experiment Sam, confirms why the real size locos were built to operate on tight curves....and how well these small locos have been made....Bob
Thanks a lot Bob - yeah absolutely - I'm amazed by this really!! :O
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
7:12 "I can't imagine a layout with curves that tight" did you forget about mines, and city tram layouts?
I'm going to try this whith my Smokey joe
Im going to try this with a garrat
@@vincentmusic09 lol XD
Awesome! haha good luck with the Garratt! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Run a decently big tender engine on those rails for fun please
haha good idea - I think it'd end badly though! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Phew... for a second i was afraid the loco’s on the shelf above the staircase we’re gonna take a dive, but luckily you managed to squeeze through... nice test, i have some fleischmanns (1/87) that’ll accept a 357mm curve, although i have 1 streamlined class 03 that refuses to do it.
haha I'm used to them now, always got to be careful, lol! Ooh that sounds interesting!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This is exactly what these small wheelbase locomotives were designed for. Some dock yards had seriously tight curves, originally designed for the likes of horses. Usually they'd just have a narrow gauge line in that case, but some places wanted to just offload or load ships directly from the regular rolling stock.
Thanks Philip - I'd love to see some curves like this in real life!!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I learned something new today too - that people say 'small things amuse small minds.'
haha, whatever floats your boat!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
For years Jouef made a 12inch radius (smaller than hornby first radius), modellers often used it for tram lines/dock layouts. If you only have room for first radius it's handy if you get some as it's set track that allows you to add in an inner line on a first radius layout - almost everything that was made in margate to go around a first radius will also go around it without any problem. I used it on my layout before to achieve a fifth inner line, the outer 4 being standard hornby 1st-4th radius.
I never knew about this Christian, thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I went to Check online because it’s my birthday, and I find this! Great video Sam hope you do more in the future! 🚂😄
haha awesome!! Happy birthday my friend!! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thank you Sam! 😃
1) I think that you might want to let Hornby know of your discovery , Sam... as this is genuinely impressive. Perhaps 0 Radius and -1 Radius could be the new minimum for UK HO/00 gauge layouts!
2) Perhaps this test could be redone with 0-6-0 tank and tender engines , with the 0 Radius and -1 Radius curves?
Thanks mate - it would be awesome to see Hornby release say an industrial train set with ultra tight curves - could open up a new market there! Great idea - I should really have tried other engines on it!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Exactly right Sam ... I have the second radius curves ... but I can never fix them to a baseboard due to lack of space ... definitely food for thought .... Crazy !!
Thanks Nigel - yeah that's it, worth remembering!! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
When I was a lad Traing trains ran on 13 1/2" raduiss curves. Hornby Dublo on 15". The sharpest curve on any standard gauge line in the UK was Gotham Curve on the Cromford and High Peak Railway at 55 yds (2 1/2 chains). The same railway also had the steepest adhesion worked incline - Hopton Incline - at 1in 14. Only certain 0-6-0 locomotives could negotiate Gotham Curve and the minimum radius curve stated for most mainline locomotives was 5 chains. There would have been sharper curves in some industrial settings. Food for thought - Gotham Curve works out at 660mm radius in 4mm to the foot scale. 5 chains and wider 1320mm and more.
Reminds me of a very old lego train set I have which uses a few metal rods between the tracks. The contacts on the train were so worn that it would struggle to drive even on straight track, though. Good times.
haha everyone's been saying that actually!! :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
hornby: our engines are designed for radius 1 curves
bachmann: ok yeah we will design our engines like that too
marklin: **laughs in utterly small corners**
The problem with tension in the track looks to be more from the sleepers joints than the rail. I think clipping all the connections between sleepers would help. I would also cut a guide out of a sheet of wood with the right radius to bend the rail against to get a smooth transition.
What an experiment, I never thought that it would have worked this well
Thanks mate, haha me neither!! :O
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Just started getting into the hobby in the past 2 weeks or so, and as a man who greatly enjoys slightly scuffed DIY kinda stuff, these tighter turns are right up my alley. This actually massively helps me in terms of just how compact I can make a small railyard I have planned. Hopefully I can snag a nice used model as my first to use as a shunter.
Fantastic! Good luck! Just remember not to make the curves too tight, as it can stress the wheel flanges. Also take couplings into account when you're designing curves - typical NEM couplings can usually only handle wider couplings!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam: The tracks are going to fail before you can make it curved enough to derail an 0-4-0
Me: challenge accepted
sam i love your videos i am been very sad and depressed as of resent and your videos keep me going and keep me from hurting myself thank you sam
Hey Caden, sorry to hear you're not doing too well mate, glad the videos are helping a bit though. Chin up my friend!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I like the music you used, adds a clean, modern touch to the video!
Thanks so much - glad you liked it Oliver! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That shot of first radius at the end now looks like a sweeping curve rather than a sharp corner.
haha I know!! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
As a side hobby I'm into tram models myself. Trams run around very tight curves in the prototype, for example turning into a side street in a normal street setting. Some trams run around 15m radius in the prototype which would be 197mm in OO scale or 182mm in HO scale . I think back in Victorian days there were 9m curves, which would be 118mm in OO or 104mm in HO scale. There is a company in the USA called Electric Avenue who supply curves with something like sub 20cm radius. I have bought some but haven't yet got around to testing them. The tracks come as a kit and are a bit fiddly to assemble.
From what some people on the internet forums advise me, I need to spread the gauge somewhat to make that possible. So I'm really surprised to see you do this with fixed gauge track and not getting derailments (apart from that one dodgy rail joint)
Thanks for sharing Ray, I've heard about some of those trams, would love to try some! Many thanks for all the info,
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Industrial Locomotive designs were often very small, strong, and tough. The Beckton Gas works were on a realistic size tight like -3 radius but the engines had wheel bases just long enough to cope. They also had Dumb Buffers (which are not sprung really they are just wood blocks at the front) this and chain couplings gave them that skill. But even so that was a great test models do not always do as well as prototype.
Imagine the industrial switching micro layouts you can make with such tight curves? While rolling stock can't handle the smallest turns for buffer locking and decoupling , clever design could see locos using them to get into service or storage areas.
One of the most common laments of those building a major model railway project is that they wished they did make the curves so tight a radius in places.
Tight curves more suited to throw away test layouts to convince you how limiting they are for running actual trains. At least a small one may not have cost much money learning the lesson.
Even on Hornby's channel their new high detail large locos and coaches look a joke going round the corners they use as their standard curves.
With lack of space it is better to have a plank type shunting layout like your O scale system.
Thanks for sharing John, yeah I bet you're right actually - I'll have super wide curves if I ever build a new layout!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Totally trying this, not to the extreme but for a smaller layout this is genius!.
haha sounds good Dan - all the best with it! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Love this. I am a toy train nut so tighter curves are pretty normal. Also like seeing what people can do with micro layouts in these smaller scales.
It may have been said elsewhere in the comments but the next step I think is adding a couple carriages (that is what you guys call them, right?) and seeing what radius they can make. Toy train hint: typically our couplers are attached to the trucks, not the car frame.
Just a thought if you wanted to take it a step further! Cheers!
Thanks Corey - yeah some of those layouts are amazing! Great idea - would be great to try some carriages!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Always thinking ahead of the curve and the the flexi track is screaming 'no, don't do it, I can't take it, what are you doing Sam?'
haha absolutely... that track was under some serious stress at the end there!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
If only we could get Sam to throw the most expensive OO guage model in a lake XD
haha I don't think I'll do that, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Very interesting video once again, nice to know that Hornby's little engines are so capable.
I can relate to 7:26, sometimes I just lose it too when doing something as ridiculous as this! You can't help yourself! 🤣
Thanks mate - yes it was fun to learn how capable these are! haha yep, can't be helped! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
My son had one of those push along wooden railways and that has curves like that !
haha yeah I've seen those - they're really cool too! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hey Sam, out of scale, long wheel flanges are fantastic for very tight curves and/or any curves and turnouts. That's why 00 Steam Locomotive front pony wheels are made "out of Scale". Australian Manufactures need follow this practice.
Thanks a lot for sharing Selwyn, that's very interesting!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
In the 1940s Varney, an early manufacturer of HO scale models here in the USA, had a demo of their small 0-4-0T dockside tank running on a circle of track where the inside "Rail" was actually a silver dollar, which is an inch and a half around. Figure HO scale track is 5/8" gauge, and you got a circle of track roughly three inches in diameter. THe purpose was to show off just what this little locomotive could do. I also remember something about a similar locomotive back on a circle of track built around the brim of a fedora hat. Again, more for fun and to prove it could be done in the first place.
Thanks a lot for sharing Steve - that sounds crazy, I would have loved to see that! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I have used Hornby 0-4-0 units as the basis for a freelance 0n30 urban tram system for several years on 6 inch (153mm) radius hand laid (soldered onto copper clad sleepers) curves set into street running layout built for a Tram Fan some years ago.
Might suggest an internal rail system inside an industrial complex would be an interesting show piece.
At the time, Hornby locomotives, like most others also, had the "cookie cutter" style flanges and never caused a hint of a problem on the street corners. Hand made turnouts also had nil issues.
I am told that the newer, more modern flanges that are now available, are also not causing any grief on the layout.
That's fantastic Frank, I've heard about that being done before, they're fairly decent chassis aren't they? That certainly would be interesting - I'd love to build something like that one day!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Very cool Sam, just started laying track and was worried that second radius was going to be too tight, this blows my theory out of the water.😀
haha thanks Leigh - I think you should be fine with 2nd, haha! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Prototypical for many industrial railways... some of the factories and quarries had crazy corners... that's why 0-4-0 tank engines were so popular! :)
Wow really?! What kind of radius are we talking for those?!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Good fun and quite amazing how tight the curves can be. I had to make some really tight curves for my Christmas village track. The 0-4-0 makes the curves but I had to cut the buffers off the trucks and remove the hook from the couplers (replacing with a small loop of wire). I just didn't have the space to make the baseboard any deeper...but it works :) And don't even get me started on the TV set layout. I managed to squeeze 19ft of N gauge track inside an old TV set....lol. All the best mate :) Tom
Thanks a lot Tom - yeah that's the issue isn't it? Trying to couple something! At least I know what to do if I try this again - thanks mate!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I tried to build a micro layout a while back that had curves varying from -1 right down to below -3! I made my own coupling system out of cake wire (A very thin wire used in making cake toppers) just so that I could run my trains. Those trains mainly consisted of A Peckett and some very kit bashed wagons. Also, at the tightest point my locomotives slowed from half speed to a crawl. Do not try this at home kids!
From the CAD era: R1 is a 360mm radius, and the minimum you can do with NEM close couplers.
Pre-CAD you did have 250mm radius as official starter set track, but you are limited to using non-rigid couplers.
You can do tighter curves... Cut the connection between the sleepers down to the minimum and use one piece of flex for the whole test track so that you don't have to use fishplates.
And yes I did try the R250 in an undulating circle... Fleischmann tinplate can drive on two wheels
Thanks a lot for sharing Ivo, yes coupling is definitely one of the biggest issues!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Amazing! Definitely now want to see some tests with larger engines!
Thanks so much John, I might do that in the future! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Fun Fact: TheUnluckyTug used the peckett (idk it’s name) to build 2 custom locos, one is his custom Percy (NWR #6) using the powered wheels, and his custom Edward (NWR #2) using the funnel.
I think you may have just sold another 1000 models of smokey and peckett for Hornby. Well done Sam. Another fine video. Cheers
haha thanks Martin, glad you liked it!! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Years ago I made a layout for my son on a 8 x 4 board, because that was the smallest I could go and have two tracks doing circuits, well a figure of eight. If only I'd known :-)
Bachmann Edward with the front truck taken off and missing his tender: Are You challenging Me
This was actually a fantastic idea for a video. Great content mate!
Thanks so much, really glad you liked it mate! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thanks for showing the stages. I've been hoping to make a roundy-round shelf layout for my pecket and this gives me confidence I can get there
It's a pleasure Stuart - sounds great, good luck with it!! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Great content as usual Sam... Couple of points - three actually:
1) Hornby will advertise the safest radius so that irate customers don't inundate them when Evening Star refuses to go around a right angle
2) You only needed the one length of flex track, it might have been better without the straights or the fishplates - I'm sure that's been pointed out
3) I really like 0-4-0s on dockside or factory layouts. Buffer lock should dictate the minimum radius - not tension-lock couplers which are an offence to nature
Thanks very much for sharing Matt! Yes absolutely right on 1, that must by why they do it! Appreciate the tips too, thanks mate!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hello Sam, another interesting experiment, I like these
Thanks a lot Sam, glad to hear that! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam'sTrains: I wonder how tight of curve a generic Hornby 0-4-0 can handle?
Lionel O27: Let us introduce ourselves
haha is that so?! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Never in my life would I have been able to predict I would be freaking out over a model train moving forward
haha me neither!! xD
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That tight curve is the sort you'd see on a child's toy train set.
Now I want to see your engines go up ridiculously steep, toy-train-ish inclines.
haha yeah, some of them are crazy aren't they?!? :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Smokey Joe really is the Little Engine That Could.
One thing that surprised me getting back into model trains was the increase in minimum radius over the years. My early 90s tender drive Scotsman came with 1st radius curves in the train set and runs no problem (meaning it would fit on a dining table), though that may be because the trailing truck is articulated (tender drive, obvs). They all seem to be fixed now; makes you wonder why they dropped that feature when they went to loco driven trains instead. Perhaps that could be the next test: smallest minimum radius of a tender engine
Yeah!! Very few challenges old smokey has failed! Yeah this is true - most locos are now 2nd radius... I reckon most could still handle 1st on well laid track!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
this would be like tracks in a dockyard or something, where they have to maneuver around things. Also, you could try doing the math on the circumference, and solder bendy track into circles to test smaller radius.
Almost 100k Sam you deserve it so much!
Thanks so much mate, that's really kind of you! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)