Flying in the UK is Confusing, Epic Formation Flight
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- ATC in the U.K. is just plain weird, but we manage to fly from Scotland to England for an epic formation flight along the coast at Beachy Head before exploring London.
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Part 2 (Canada to Greenland): • COMPLETE AVIONICS FAIL...
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Part 4 (Iceland to UK): • Flying a Cessna to Sco...
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I've been flying since I was 16 and at age 19 flew around the world by myself in the same 1981 A36 Beechcraft Bonanza I still fly, becoming the youngest person ever to solo circumnavigate by aircraft.
Now, I'm sharing all kinds of aviation adventures with YOU! Ride along as we explore the world from the air and get a close up look at some of aviation's best flight experiences and destinations.
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Guys - you really should brief yourselves on national ATC before you arrive. Firstly, Transition Altitude varies throughout the world and may vary region by region inside each country. It is NOT a standard 18,000 feet. You will generate an Airprox if you don’t change when you should. Secondly, your aircraft has windows and you have eyes - use them. You will be sharing the sky with airliners, private jets and the military as well as bug smashers outside controlled airspace throughout Europe. Thirdly, Europe lacks a well developed support structure outside controlled airspace because our skies are too crowded, the weather too unpleasant too often and our governments prefer to spend money differently. To usefully use an aircraft in Europe you have to have an Instrument Rating (ours don’t come after 20 multiple guess questions and five hours of training) and a well equipped aircraft capable of handle ice, ie. too expensive. A lack of traffic means we don’t have sufficient small airports with instrument approaches. Lastly, appreciate that you come from a very free, very rich country but it only occupies six percent of our Earth’s landmass and US citizens 4% of its population. Do not expect the rest of the World to be created in your own image. Instead, expect differences.
very true.not prepared for the flight
GA pilots dude.they think they know everything about flying and expect aviation to follow their way.we airliners will take every flight a challenge with mutual respect no matter where.
Im glad to two guys sorted things out, it’s a shame the owners of the video haven’t either seen and or commented on this matter. I’m only own a mere PPL but I was shocked to hear them blindly acknowledging instructions when they should of replied that they where unfamiliar with the terminology used. They were lucky at first they seemed to get a controller that actually was trying his best to help them and even got on the phone to help them clear their passage, obviously he read between the lines and understood they where naive. They need to understand that in Europe it’s extremely condensed airspace and in some views maybe over regulated, we just don’t have the space to fly around flight following or VFR as easily. To even think of passing even near London which IS the most congested airspace in the world just on the hopp i can only put down to them being fatigued and thinking they have flown halfway around the world they can just wing it, excuse the pun, is unprofessional. Oh and if they think they had it tough here wait till the Germans get hold of them!, hopefully they will of learnt the lesson by then.
Mark Sketch whaaat? German here, IFR is a piece of cake...I think. Fly direct..., contact...cleared to land.
Matt, until watching this video I had a great deal of respect for you however my opinion has regrettably changed somewhat. It is your responsibility as a pilot to know the airspace and regulations of the country you are flying within.
A few basic points to consider in future prior to "mentoring" other aviators through the U.K. ATS;
1. It is unacceptable that you did not understand the difference between navigation inside and outside controlled airspace whilst transiting some of the busiest airspace in the world. You had no concept of airspace structure or location but acknowledged an ATC instruction to remain clear of controlled airspace without hesitation, that is simply irresponsible and dangerous. The responsible and legal action would have been to carry a UK navigation chart indicating location and classification of airspace, the same way you would have carried a VFR sectional chart in the USA for a VFR flight.
A deconfliction service simply provides you separation from other traffic, it does not clear you into or through airspace hence the numerous instructions to "remain clear of controlled airspace". It is your responsibility to remain clear of airspace that is keeping you separated from commercial traffic. Failure to do so may lead to you endangering commercial air traffic and in turn WILL lead to legal prosecution irrespective of nationality or license. Hopefully you'll begin to appreciate the naivety of filing an IFR FPL "outside controlled airspace" routing Wick DCT Shoreham. To put this in USA terms, you just planned KBOS DCT KIAD VFR without a sectional chart or GPS and when asked for your routing by ATC, replied "whatever you prefer".
2. "IFR outside controlled airspace" is exactly that, outside controlled airspace. You have no obligation to talk to ATC and ATC has no requirements to know who you are prior to your initial call with or without a flight plan (the "pass your message" bit by the way). ATC are not required to pass your details to the next sector/ATC controller unless within controlled airspace.
3. Understand the term "transition altitude" or "transition level" and when to use them. If you are cleared to a flight level, do not repeatedly read back that you are maintaining an altitude, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you know the difference. How can you be de-conflicted from surrounding traffic if you're not maintaining the assigned altitude/level. The U.K. doesn't have a uniform 18,000ft to set 29.92, it can be as low as 3,500ft in some areas and as you know the difference between the two can be hundreds of feet negating the benefit of the deconfliction.
4. You showed frustration, distain disrespect towards a controller for not knowing your flight details, but you did not even know your;
Permitted route of flight,
Correct altitude,
Airspace you were currently within
Airspace classification and its significance
Surrounding Airspace location
ATC service available
ATC service that you require
How those ATC services work
or
Air law for the country you were flying within. To mention only a few of many points.
If you want to present yourself as the professional aviator you attempt to portray in your channel, have a modicum of respect and professionalism for those you are working with and who by the looks of things are trying to keep you alive as you blindly fly through their airspace or simply don't fly outside the USA and Canada. Many of your viewers will watch your videos in an educational capacity with hopes to replicate your performance. It is a sign of maturity and professionalism to admit when you do not know information and to emphasize this to your viewers in order to prevent the transmission of incorrect information. Other options for you are to edit your videos differently or just not post a particular video at all.
I mean my comments with the greatest of respect from one aviator to another. I hope you can appreciate the gravitas of the video you have posted and the image it portrays. Wouldn't it be mortifying if someone follows in your unintended footsteps and ends up creating an incident, accident or getting prosecuted.
I enjoy your videos and hope you keep posting, but please be occasionally mindful of their content.
BlueLineSpeed
Can't you Brits come up with your own comments? Or is it easier that way? Less thinking.
Martial Artist; Isn't that a bizarre reply to what is in fact a "comment" or were you being sarcastic? If so, bravo sir/madam.
Did I somehow reiterate some feedback you had already posted in your comments and by this, in some way insulted you? Either way I am struggling to find the link between my comment and a nations ability to think? Nevertheless, I apologize how my feedback on this video has in some way aggrieved you.
BlueLineSpeed
Sorry if I offended you. The same comments repeated multiple times by multiple people just gets a little ridiculous. I do concur, they should have done their due diligence in air space and procedures when flying in your country, but Matt wasn't Pilot In Command either. Just the navigaror. The PIC has sole responsibility for operation of the craft. It just goes to show us that we all can make mistakes. Only, theirs are the ones that were recorded for public digestion and comment. Good and bad! We all should be able to learn from the mistakes of others. The pictures where great! You have a beautiful country.
Martial Artist, I agree that we wouldn't have this footage to enjoy in the first place if they hadn't made the effort to fly across, and that must be recognized. Our airspace structure is unduly complicated and sometimes feels it's only been created to catch out the unwary pilots, but it is what it is. We should just be thankful we have a general aviation at all in these days of over regulation.
I take your point about repeat comments, I'll have a scan through in future. Safe aviating!
BlueLineSpeed
Thank you for your understanding and comment. We do both live in some great countries which still have some freedom when it comes to GA. Iron sharpeneth iron! Fly safe yourself. My be someday we'll cross paths.
Guys. Awesome video! I instruct PPL in the UK and we do seem to make things more difficult than they need to be. However, when anybody asks "Pass your message" just remember; C.A.R.P.A.R Callsign, Aircraft Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Request. Thats all they need. Happy landings.
The mnemonic I was taught was CPTL, callsign and type, position, time to next waypoint, and level altitude. E.g. Golf Bravo Zulu is a PA28 approximately 4 nautical miles West abeam Durham expecting EggNog at ten-twenty-two zulu, level 6000 feet.
Great info. Thank you TwoGuys...I visited England several times between 1981 and 1990, mostly Portsmouth and London courtesy of being in the Navy aboard the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower. I enjoyed them immensely and hope to do so again in the future.
So basically same information as vfr flight following
In the pass ur message, you don’t repeat the ‘request basic service’. Only say ‘request ____ service on your initial call.
Shoreham is not in London, as is 95% of the rest of England.
Just because you don't understand how we do things in the UK dosent make it illogical or “ass-backwards”. Maybe you should have looked in to one of the worlds buisiest airspaces before flying in to it?
They fly on the left in England
Hahah good one!
Incorrect good sir. We fly over the beaches. We fly over the landing grounds. We fly over the fields and streets. We fly in the hills. We shall never be grounded. We will fly over our island, whatever the cost may be.
and the baggage retrieval system they have at Heathrow
It must be hard for an American to understand that some countries werent brought to their knees by the white flag waving French, and hence do not follow Napoleonic whims like driving on the right against near universal tradition.
@Togapower Ah that old myth, 1 Look up the Battle of Britain when The RAF stopped the Luftwaffe from air dominance(the first European air force to stop them ) and without US help, which made the Germans cancel their invasion plans. 2. US finally joins in the fight against Germany a whole2 years After the War started and only after Pearl Harbour. 3. If the Germans had invaded Britain then the US would have been their next planned destination ( look up the ''New York'' V2 missile). ''Have a nice day now '' ☺
Firstly, that was an amazing journey, amazing set of videos! Secondly, getting a bit flustered with different RT procedures is understandable but not bothering to look at the UK CAA guidance is a bit silly. CAP 413 lists the RT procedures and if it's a non ICAO standard phraseology, it's neatly summarised in the appendix. I wouldn't dream of going through some of the busiest airspace in the world not being confident in the RT. it looks to me that you got a great service from Scottish and London Information who were very patient with you and obtained clearances for you (also the "information" part of the designator is a clue as to what type of service you will receive). Next time you're in the UK, if you don't understand what ATC is asking then just tell them in plain English or let them know you are new to flying in UK airspace, I sense London Info picked up on this and was actually giving you a personalised level of service.
Ignorance is Bliss !
It's like any Americans outside their homeland lmao
Well said. I find it really sloppy that they would fly within UK airspace, with little knowledge of correct procedures.
It’s actually unbelievable. The arrogance of that whole bit of the video was amazing. Irrespective of that, flying around busy airspace like that with barely any idea what anyone is asking you to do is extremely dangerous. What a plane of tits.
@@Superdelphinus Hey Hey Hey!!! But we are Americans. Doesn’t everybody say that about us? Lmao. P.s. you-all talk funny.
‘Pass your message’ just means ‘go ahead’. The ground station wants to know who you are, where you’re going, and what help you need. It’s obviously not used when you have a flight-planned route through controlled airspace when ATC know all about you. GA is less active in Britain, and other European countries mainly because of cost. If you fly in the UK, you understand the airspace and it really isn’t difficult but they don’t have cheap gas and the unit costs of flying are high. Seems to me that the most dangerous part of your journey wasn’t the polar icecap or the trans-Atlantic sectors. It was flying the whole length of a country with crowded airspace without any clear idea of your route or the ATC procedures.
It's kind of scary how ignorant they seem of how the ATC is supposed to work and how dismissive they are about it.
It's like they came to the UK to play football, but didn't read up on the laws of football in the UK, then turned up to the game in helmets and pads and then complained that the other team weren't playing right...
I fly for a UK airline and when I watched this the first time round I was shocked at how BAD they were in foreign airspace. When you fly in another country you research what your flying into! This guy is terrible
Gwopboy B very true my friend
Gwopboy B and the obesity
@@nathanpeters7033 You're supposed to say "Rubbish" Just kidding man these kids look pretty hungover/tired lol. Give them some slack.
"Pass your message..." - watching you guys try to translate was the funniest moment EVER :) ...note you were speaking to London Info - they are a super busy ATC covering everything from the border of Scotland to the border with French FIR @ Lille - have pity...
Pass your message is standard for most controllers in the uk, basically means say what you are doing and where you want to go and basic service is standard and ive never heard deconfliction on frequency. Anyway great video!
If you think UK is tricky wait till you get to Italy. An Italian pilot pilot told me "The easiest way to route in Italy is stay below 500' AGL and don't talk to any one !"
I actually prefer that method for flying in the US, lol.
This is one of the most stupid and non-sense fucking bullshit i've ever heard.....
Just like the military pilots that clipped the Gondola cable. Not funny at all!!
Worrying that you were unaware what a basic or deconfliction service is. You need to be looking out for traffic under a basic service as you are fully responsible as the pilot, you will not be vectored away from other traffic. The London Flight Information Service are not equipped with radar which is why you were asked so many questions. And all the phraseology was standard ICAO. You need to file a flight plan fully through Class A or C airspace if you want a radar control service for the full route. All part of the learning experience I suppose.
CaliforniaCamping Agreed! its just typical american ignorance
Whoa buddy, chill out there. If we're going to be immature and petty there's a lot of things we can say back. No need to be an internet keyboard warrior. @OGPPL
Basic service is not standard ICAO + we don't have class C in the UK. Also, @OGPPL have you flown outside of the UK yet? I'm sure when you do, you'll quickly realize that our system is poor for anything but commercial traffic in the airways.
OGPPL yeah he's flown solo around the world and you're just taking lessons. Shut your turd flapper.
Michael Hadley I said the phraseology in the video is standard ICAO and we do have Class C airspace. It’s probably the biggest portion of airspace in the UK. If your aircraft can’t get that high then that might be why you are unaware of it. It’s really important to know what a service includes if you are going to fly in a new country. If you think you’re going to be vectored to avoid/informed about traffic when you’re not that’s the worry. Also if you’re unsure what to expect under a certain service... just ask the controller.
Hey Matt, it was great flying in formation with you that day - fun giving Alfie his first flying lesson too mate :) Pissed my pants laughing when you two looked so perplexed at the London Info controller's request for you to "Pass Your Message" :) You seemed not to appreciate then that London Info is a non-radar service (can't see where you are, so only procedural) hence his questions were directed at re-inserting you into controlled airspace at some point. Totally foreign concept vs the US I know :) Again, great seeing you and meeting JP & Louis :) Cheers chaps :)
Hey Andy, I’m researching a possible trip across the pond in my RV-8...would love to correspond with you about procedures and such.
I’d be coming from Canada with a dedicated trip to fly the Cliffs of Dover...
Cheers,
Don
t6pilot@hotmail.com
Wow! Just a really great video. Posting a comment to fully articulate how much I appreciate the effort it takes to make these videos is sometimes hard. This is one of those videos. Today is my birthday...thanks for the awesome gift!
I don't mean to be rude gents, but it's your responsibility as the pilot to at least bone up on UK ATC procedures before flying in their airspace. You were unhelpful to the controller in most of those cases of communication. I don't think you quite appreciated how different UK and US airspace systems were before flying. Quite dangerous if you don't mind me saying.
And Matt even blamed the British accent, that's very rude... he behaved like the typical american...
The UK’s air traffic control system is equivalent to the United States system from like the early 80’s it’s old and outdated but you do you.
helicart pot meet kettle.
@@Aznerep
meoowwww
@@huisbaasbob1923
especially when they bang on about how bad another country's ...... is compared to the USA. I travel to the USA every year with work, and have done so since 1979. I don't harp on about the place's moronic approach to many things when I am there.... i.e.
- most processed packaged food items have excessive sugar added cf the rest of the world.
- meals are excessive in energy content for 99.9% of the population.
- there's a lack of coordination and responsibility between police at local and State govt levels. i.e. many local police don't know Federal or State laws relative to international drivers in the USA.
- customer service staff are invariably slow minded, don't know their job, and cannot problem solve or apply common sense at their discretion. In fact, generally, there's a lack of initiative to use sound judgement and deviate from mindless minutiae in coprorate protocols. Every time I land in NYC or LA airports and have to be processed via customs I see this thickheadedness. The USA is the laughing stock of the rest of the West in much, especially customs processing.
- I've never had a law enforcement officer pull a gun on me anywhere in the world, apart from the USA.
- if an American falls behind paying property taxes , they risk local govt confiscating it.
- the USA is the most litigious nation in the world...and the cost of lawyers makes justice not reasonably equally available to all. Other countries are not perfect, but they are a lot better than America.
- Many American service businesses (hotels) quote a rate that excludes compulsory fees for additional services.
- retail prices exclude sales tax.
I could go on....and on.
I've worked for 4 decades in the USA, and can compare it to many countries in Oceania, Asia, Europe. The US could be pilloried for a week nonstop re the ignorance and stubborness to evolve its business and govt cultures.
I have friends in the cattle and grain businesses. America does it dumber. Govt subsidies make many industries in the US non competitive globally.
NEXT
I have had the pleasure of flying IFR in the US and the UK. I have to say that the US system, where everything is in one system, C172 with A380 and the controllers know about both does make a lot of sense. The 18,000ft rule also makes sense. I love flying in the states, the numerous RNAV approaches, to the smallest of airfield and the PCL make it a real pleasure, however.
This does not excuse you from carrying out your basic preflight planning. I am assuming that you filed a DCT to EGKA, which just can not be done here, I dont know how it was accepted by eurocontrol, I can only assume that you filled VFR. The only thing that I saw to negate this was that at some point you had a FPL om the GTN650 showed BPK-LAM-DVR-EGKA, or something like that. I, again assume, that you got this from London FIS. Foreflight doesn't work in the UK, if it does only to a limited capability. I didn't see a CAA VFR chart, but I accept you may have had one, and when you are VFR in the UK you have a legal requirement to have one, or a suitable means of navigation.
You can be excused for find the UK airspace confusing, I can agree with you that it is not as good as the US, and I would love it to be the same system as the US, but you can not be excused for the total lack of preflight planning, knowing local procedures and being aware of our airspace system, its your legal obligation. The first part of your flight was outside controlled airspace. You don't need a radio to fly there, so its eyes out the window all the time, unfortunately you then went in to some of the busiest airspace in the world, around London. As a UK IR pilot I would have spent some time researching this, prior to the flight. I spent a long time researching my US flying from the UK know about the clearances, cancelling IFR, filing IFR plans even before I stepped in to an aircraft.
A good (safe) pilot knows all the foreseeable aspects of their flight prior to engine start.There are enough "unknowns" along the way to challenge us.
Might have been an investment to have had a check ride with a UK instructor.
The air-to-air at 19:30 was just INCREDIBLE. Also, the discussion of ATC in England being run by private company (far less services and far more expensive) should be required listening to U.S. pilots and politicians. Great video. Thanks!
It may be run by a "private company" but just to enlighten you, the UK Government own 53% of that private company.
@@nathd1748 Partial government ownership doesn't change the fact that it is a private company that operates like one.
i died laughing when the turbulence woke you up, you looked so disturbed XD
There's nothing quite like waking up to the feeling of free fall.
If only it hapenned when the PIC was taking a slash :-)
Very nice as usual. But here is a suggestion: please add some means for viewers to identify the nicer spots you are overflying, either with on-screen labels, post-production overdubbed narration or even just a simple "time reference" list on the video description itself. It would help us locate those spots in Google earth, get more details in other youtube videos or other sites, etc.
As a brit, this is hilarious to watch. You forget how different stuff is. And remember “a good pilot is always passing their message” 😂
You’re dealing with some of the best ATCOs in the world. Your lack of research into how ATC works in the UK is embarrassing. Your extremely lucky you didn’t bust a zone. If you consider the high level of traffic particularly in the South East I’d consider yourselves extremely lucky.
Where could one look for information regarding ATC in the UK if you don't mind me asking?
I totally agree on the research before you fly over procedure, but these guys coming from the US flying to an English speaking country(UK) they would expect at least an ICAO english compliant phraseology which all these are certainly NOT. I ve flown around the world even in some weird countries where english are lets say a luxury but this shock ,with all these confusing and certainly not standard per ICAO phraseology , when you enter UK airspace is just amazing.
Gotta agree with Angelos Sakellariou on this. There was no reason to expect that their phraseology would be so different to everybody else. It's not like these guys haven't flown other places before. Matt's flown all over the world and the international lexicon which works almost everywhere else doesn't work in the UK. The fact that the UK is part of the anglo-sphere makes it even more reasonable to expect them to use the agreed upon lexicon.
The fact they've all flown around the world and experienced different procedures and are having trouble in a mainly English speaking country just shows that their system is flawed and makes no sense.
It amazes me these yanks cannot conceive that anywhere else might have as long and rich a flying tradition as they, and thus have independently developed. The idea of anything not being californicated is a horror to these jingoists.
Good God, I feel bad for the GA guys over in the UK. It's easy to take flight following and no fees for granted here in America. Keep up the awesome videos Matt!
Welcome to the old continent chaps.....you prepared a cross Atlantic flight. A little preparation on the ATC will not harm you....
Cheers.
What a thrill to fly it must be. I only flew three times in my life, once to Ireland in 1973, once to Puerto Rico in 1990, and once in Kitty Hawk, NC in a Cessna. Hats off to you guys.
Honestly guys: "Pass your message" is not only absolutely standard UK ATC protocol, but EVEN if you did not know that, "pass your message" means exactly that!! What is so confusing for you?. You will also notice that there is ZERO SLANG in English ATC methodology. ZERO. So everything is CRYSTAL Clear. Do you think you might be a tad arrogant that you not only failed to bother to read up on the UK system which is only slightly different, and not as radically different as you are making out, but rather than showing some modesty, or circumspection, you lash out at the system. Forgive me but this is the very reason some US travelers abroad get a reputation for arrogance owing to their own ignorance about the culture and different methodologies of other countries.
If you were flying a standard passenger commercial flight with IFR rules the phraseology is almost identical to the US, but you were low flying, mostly VFR using regional traffic services which conform to ICAO UK standards and do not deviate from it. Your problems occured because you did not bother to read up on regional flight information services, which are actually extremely useful and FAR more helpful once you understand the system. If I was to cross the USA in a light aircraft I would not dream of turning up without THOROUGHLY understanding US airspace and particularly VFR flight following rules. Many comments below also fail to understand that local and regional flight info and radar/non-radar services are different depending where you are. They are entirely different from the International Protocols for commercial IFR flying which indeed is standard,. more or less, throughout the world. But you were not flying a commercial passenger IFR flight.
You need to appreciate that UK airspaces (especially airways) are extremely busy and compressed into a geographically tiny space, whereas US space which is vast, and we do not having the same universal flying culture as in the US where GA is concerned, but there are some very clear rules that make sense if you bother to learn them. As for the speaking manner of the controllers, I find it hilarious that you find English people speaking their OWN language as something weird or over-fast. They are speaking to you in PERFECT English, but you are simply not used to it. Does it not occur to you that you are in a country which DEVELOPED the very language you speak? That would be like me going to France for the day and complaining the French speak their own language improperly. Can you not see the ridiculousness of this?
It's extraordinary that you describe the controllers as "mumbling" and speaking too fast. In fact THE OPPOSITE is the case. You might not like the UK system but UK controllers are by far the clearest in speech and that fact is acknowledged universally. Your OWN voice sounds drawled and unclear on many of your own videos! I don't want to create a verbal spat here, but some US controllers (and some pilots) are INFAMOUS for slang, drawled and slurred phraseology, machine gunning words, and imprecise language. The fact is you did not bother to do a bit of reading in advance and frankly you come over as an entitled, arrogant, spoiled person, which I'm sure you don't mean to, but that's how it sounds. Anyway I'm glad you enjoyed your trip. Yes Beachy Head is very beautiful. Glad you enjoyed it.
BTW, one of the most basic things to learn is that transition altitudes are not the same in some countries. If you did not even know what the UK transition altitude is you have no business flying there! I'm amazed that you have flown a world trip but did not know this.
"If I was to cross the USA in a light aircraft". Of course what you meant to say, governor, was, "If I WERE to cross the USA..." Subjunctive case, Governor, after all aren't we speaking the Queen's English???. Please remember to read your recent history and thank your UNEDUCATED DIMWITTED YANK POMS from time to time for the the fact that you indeed still speak English and not German. A bit of diplomacy is indeed in order. Come fly with me in my triple seven from KLAX to EGLL. We can all get along here!!
Actually, and I say this with 28 years of airline experience, the controllers in GERMANY speak an English clearer, and more understandably, than many UK controllers. Frankfurt vs, Scottish, no contest, give me Frankfurt. That said, yes, it is his job to understand UK airspace. But the language thing, give it a rest. There are some THICK accents in the UK.
@@Rodgerball The subjunctive mood has been dying in English for centuries, and _many_ speakers today find "if I was " much more cromulent than "if I were ".
@@kurtbjorn The people I communicate with via the Internet who have the best written English are universally not from English-speaking countries. They've actually had to put significant effort into studying the language.
In America, we don't speak "English;" right or wrong, we speak "American." I wish that people would acknowledge the distinction. Language evolves--its a tool, mates. That said, Yes, it behooves any traveler venturing away from home to thoroughly learn and understand the procedures at his destination, and to approach it with circumspection. Thanks for the inputs, I've copied and saved your comments for future reference, as I'd love to fly my own plane some day on the same route to Europe from my own sand patch in the American west, and I'd like to make and keep friends on the way.
Fantastic!! Really enjoyed watching the formation flight and watching you guys work with ATC in England. I never knew how different ATC really is over there.
Great video, so funny watching you both confused re the radio language here in the UK, loved the waking of the turbulence as well, as a pilot here in the UK I love your videos keep them coming, there is is a radio evening Wednesday night here at Barton UK, maybe you should fly over and get some lessons !! lol
When I was in London ten years ago, I made sure to visit the RAF Museum. The day I went happened to be the day they were marking the 35th anniversary of the Falklands War. The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight did a formation flight over the Museum on their way back from a formation flight over Buckingham Palace. I tell you, to see Hurricanes, Spitfires, and one of the last airworthy Avro Lancasters in flight was something else. I managed to get a picture, and that was the wallpaper on my computer for the longest time.
I just thought I’d say, the second part of this video starting at 17:47 inspired me so much that I went to Shoreham airport myself and did a trial flight in a piper pa-28 warrior over Beachy head and back.
A big surprise in your attitude to the ATC terms of the United Kingdom. I found your comments quite surprising and showed that you had not spent very long listening to the English language over here or had done any preparation for this leg of your journey. Are you aware of the English phrase, the six P's? Prior Planning Prevents p### Poor Performance. As for understanding English, in some respects, it is the Mother tongue and apart from the local accents, you should not any issues understanding it. Unlike a lot of your read backs, sometimes it was 0EU, sometimes it was N0EU, 210EU, and very often I could not figure out which one was used as it was so mumbled even though I was using the CC. Experience is the best adventure.
Good to see you flew into shoreham, my current training airport to get my PPL, Amazing airport with some great scenery. The ATC for me is quite simple, but then again, it’s what I’ve learned, but listening to USA ATC, it does seem more difficult.
Sometimes 'radar' asks you to report over a point even though they can 'see' you is because they might have a lot of traffic to control and dont want t forget about you. Its more of a reminder most times
Two things: I love the way your British friend teaches flight - brilliant! I also found the reason for purchasing of the flight shirts and appellate decorations interesting, but it made sense. Thanks for sharing! keep "passing your message!"
Cheers - I am that "British" friend, but in fact I am AUSTRALIAN and have lived here in UK 30yrs :)
Epaulette
sorry for assuming.
This is interesting, but in some ways almost embarrassing. If I were flying in the USA I'd learn their procedures beforehand, if I drive in a foreign country, I learn the appropriate traffic law first. If you're coming to the UK to fly you'd think at the very least knowing the correct response to "Pass Your Message" and the UK ATSOCAS stuff would be useful.
rsmckgla agree. Typical yank attitude that US way is the only way
But great videos though....keep up the good work
Damn yanks, how DARE they invent fixed-wing flight. Bastards.
Invent is a bit very rich - they were the first successful flight among dozens of independent parallel developments across the world, and not by all that long. All of them had 'invented' the craft long before it flew. The UK has just as long and rich a flight history as the US, perhaps even richer in the early years as they were huge on airships too. They also had very different needs as a smaller county geographically dealing with an extraordinary number of international flights from the outset.
Not saying better or worse - just that there is a very good reason they are different
You also need to appreciate that while America had it's aircraft development stalled by wright bros patent manuevering, Europe was getting on with making aircraft - to the extent that the US actually had to buy FRENCH planes for WW1 as they didnt have any up to snuff, so the UK and Europe got into real flying earlier.
Love it that the military atc has off on weekends.... when starting the next Battle of Britain, choose a saturday, gives you 48 hrs. :-)
I enjoy your videos immensely. But to be critical your radio speak could be more precise.
For example when asking ATC for an IFR flight and giving them a cruising altitude of 7000 ft rather than FL70 it will then use up the ATC time for the ATC to ascertain which you actually want.
Safe flying.
Yeah we do things a little differently in the UK.
For those flying in the UK who are not used to our system, you can look up our R/T procedures and air traffic services via the AIP on the NATS website, or in the Pooley's Air Pilot's Manual book series, or you can look through some useful introductory information in the "Skyway Code" available on the British Civil Aviation Authority's website.
The trick in flying Wick to Shoreham is to plan a route solely talking to the Tower Controller at each end ;-)
The interesting thing to note is that the first controller at Scottish asked all the question individually, that are normally passed by the PIC on first contact in response to "Pass your message?"
At 4:35 the SatNav outlines your partial Flightplan as OTR BANTO BKY BPK DET EGKA. In the London TMA thats a tricky route avoiding Luton Stansted Heathrow City and the many less commercial fields... This routes through all the stacks for Heathrow, whose bottom is FL70 prior to Approach. That would be some tough flying.. Much better to fly to the West via DCS POL STAFA HON GWC. The option - fly lower, amongst all the other GA aircraft flying outside controlled airspace where "eyes outside" is 100% imperative!
Reminds me of the Pilot magazine articles - I learned to fly from that one ..........
1:35 is the Island of Stroma. My parents actually were the only ones that lived on that island as caretakers for the owner. My jaw dropped when I realized that was, in fact, the same island.
Small Planet!
Cheers, Matt. I need reminding sometimes that I live in an amazing city.
On the bus on the way home last night, the route took me past Trafalgar Square, Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament. Going past these famous and beautiful landmarks, all I could think was how tired I was, and how much I just wanted to get home.
Sometimes seeing our own cities through the eyes of tourists makes us appreciate where we are, and how lucky we are to live here.
Jablička It seems all the leeches from EVERYWHERE have come to England and domt forget how lucky They are but rather know nothing about the history nor want to know! All they want is as much free shit as possible and never work for it.Just complain about the country..I just dont understand why they come here instead of stay in their own DAMN countries!
Connoisseur, this happens in every country, it's not limited to this one.
... are you on drugs?
Jablička Drugs? No I simply speak the truth and you obviously DONT LIKE IT! TAKE YOUR 25 MEMBER FAMILY BACK TO THE COUNTRY YOU SWAM FROM..YOU ALL COME HERE!!! STAY OUT!
You make me ashamed to be British. I was born here, as were my forebears further back than records count. Do us all a favour and stay off the interwebs.
Love the formation pictures over white cliffs..so fabulous
Really enjoy listening in on the aviation talk guys. Love those spectacular views too.
I think it was 1995-6. There were three quotes of American athletes I’ll never forget. One major league baseball player was asked why his team lost, “too many home runs and stuff”. The Yankees had just won the World Series and in the locker room celebration coach Joe Torre was asked if he got a call from then president Bill Clinton. He said he did but when he finally got to the phone, Bill wasn’t there. Reporter asked “well what happened?” Joe said “I think when I finally got to the phone he had gone to eat a sandwich or something”. We diss Americans too. My fav coach.
And the final quote pertains to these boys here chest beating about this video with a bit-O-trash on Americans. We sent a young man over to play the British Open. Our guy won the tourney 1995. As John Daly was being handed the green jacket he was asked if he’d be wearing it around. He said “probably not. Too many rules and stuff.” An American not-beta-male. Deal with it.
We don’t like all those rules. That is why we are not liked. I don’t mind not being liked. I don’t like guys who need to be liked.
Yes,these pilots should have had a bit more regard, but for this to launch into trashing America is precisely why we like our country. My dad flew out of Watton preparing for D-Day. He didn’t much care for the Brit culture and some of its insufferable demeanor, well, of some Brits, not all. It’s a different kind of arrogance, one of delusional supremacy and childish revelry. The American attitude is who, cares or really, give a shit. I guess it might go back to 1776 and then the 1812 bitter ransackers & common vandals first violating our sea routes.
Sir Winston is one of my all time heroes. He and that Iron Lady were epic leaders. I can easily differentiate between them and today’s socialist pub brat groupies.
I suppose in WW2 we were defending America too but many didn’t think so. You wonder how many American pilots violated your sophisticated royal airspace inadvertently while grouping up for those daylight raids? Some 40,000 didn’t live to tell.
I have FAA and CAA PPL. I do think U.K. airspace is ridiculously dense and busy and precision flying is required more. I do think the USA is still the most professionally controlled airspace in the world with better systems that everyone else copies . It’s so much better to fly in the US then U.K. JMHO I’m from U.K.
Totally agreed Pablo... I also hold both licenses, but my experience is that US air traffic density can be far greater than in the U.K. The FAA flight planning and weather briefing service is second to none and completely free!
@@TheJamesmcdiarmid for sure . There are lots of experts on you tube LOL
It all seems to work well here in the UK, with my limited cross country flying- I'm mainly going up and down and round and round. It's all good...
Ok so first, comparing USA ATC services with UK ATC services is not that one or another is better, the thing is that airspace is way different together with ATC structure and infrastructure.
For me USA way of filing flightplan or understanding airspace/atc services is a lot more simpler than UK and a little bit easier.
I found in USA that with just one app you can get almost everything for your flight (maps, charts, briefings, wx, frequencies, flight plan and all about that) where in UK you cant. It was more simpler the airspace to understand, way more simpler everything!!
Im an Argentinian - ANAC PPL, FAA-USA CPL ME IR and UK-EASA ATPL CPL ME IR and i was really confused while i was flying in UK, when they talked about controlled airspace when you were talking with someone with radar (Exeter for example) but that does not mean that is wrong, its just i was expecting kind of the same thing as US (flight following, IFR, etc etc) but even thought that i managed to get through it, i was still confused and i was not the only one that saw that.
So i will recommend if you are from USA and you are planning to go to UK to do ATPL or something like this video, study a little bit before or get in touch with someone that can explain it.
Other thing that sometimes they put so much stuff on the explanations or questions from ATPLS that you focus on just passing it or get used to questions instead of knowing the topic from top to bottom. So if the ask you stupid things from everything you get to get crazy with that stuff instead of knowing the simple stuff.
ATPLS exams were a pain, there is no way to pass them without doing the question banks from each of the subjects at least 3-4 times. That does not mean to memorize questions, but like i said above, when they do that stuff about asking things that are difficult or that you are never gonna use/do it/apply it at the same time, you focus on that and you forget sometimes the simple stuff like whats Basic/Traffic/Deconfliction servicies are.
Anyways both countries are great, but again USA at least for me was simpler to understand.
hahaha "what would you not do with a dog turd wrapped in tissue" that was a genius analogy for instructing new student for flight control touch! awesome vid again as usual Matt and the gang great ride along gentlemen!
Muscle stress (I’m old) is transferred to the stick/yoke or cyclic. Light touch! The poo-poo analogy is funny.
THE worst airmanship I’ve seen in a UA-cam video along with some breathtaking arrogance.
Well done, lads!
The pitot tube icing a couple videos prior was cringeworthy. "We haven't seen any visible moisture so I can't understand why the pitot tube got blocked..." Uhh, maybe because you are flying north of the arctic circle! How about switching on the pitot heat?
squirefong aa
You might not realise but GA IFR is a very fringe activity here in the U.K. Only practised my v small number of PPL pilots. Most of the GA community are VFR most of the time.
A bit annoying that you consider the UK's different procedures "illogical". They're not illogical, they're just _different._
Well done trying to get our ATC over here. We have a very un-joined up ATC outside controlled airspace.
I thought you were a big fan of LARS Jon? haha
They do a decent job within the confines of their responsibility, and when they're open.
The Flying Reporter is it just because of funding that we don’t have a system like the US?
I've never totally worked that out. I think our airspace is set up very differently, and that's the main reason.
Fair enough, thanks Jon. Big fan of your videos by the way, looks like you're coming up my way tomorrow to Sherburn? Would loved to have come said hi but I'm midway through my exams at university and my ATPLs at the moment. Enjoy though, it's a fantastic airfield and its where I learnt to fly.
Amazing video!! Thanks Matt. And also a great lesson on why I will fight the privatization of the ATC in the U.S.
You do a great job in your video presentations. Really enjoyed this one. Cheers, Start Safe, Stay Safe
Did you get an IFPS acknowledgement from Brussels for your IFR flight plan? Seems unlikely that they would accept EGPC DCT EGKA FL70.
I'm sure someone else has pointed it out but "pass your message" means "I'm ready to copy say what you need to say"
The rest of the world doesn’t really require you to pass any message; they already have your information
Well in the UK, that’s clearly not how it works and it was your responsibility to know that before flying into our airspace.
Would you really expect to drive in a country without double checking the road rules first?
Will be using the dog turd in tissue reference when I take other people up.
Happy I kept watching simply for that epic formation flying!
If you don't understand ATC, there's no shame in asking them to explain. Not doing so can be fatal.
Now you guys know how difficult it is for us to understand your peculiar accents, pronunciation, strange phrases and different meanings of words! We speak English, and you speak U/S English.
Seriously; let’s face it; every country and region is parochial in their view of the world. Thanks for the video, Matt,
That’s funny about Aberdeen, Scotland retweeting a tweet from its namesake city in South Dakota. I live in Boston’s South End and regularly tweet and post Instagram photos tagged “SouthEnd” only to have them retweeted or shared by various organizations in England’s Southend.
This is so strange to watch as a British pilot and aircraft engineer, the pa28 on your right at 17:14, I maintain, never thought I’d see you guys so close to home, it’s weird
Cool to see the approach to Shoreham from the air. I've seen a couple of airshows there, but never had the aircraft perspective
Enjoyed watching! Thanks for posting and keep up the good work!
I've flown out of Shoreham .....only on a lesson ...so lot of fun to see world travellers do the same :)
Ah cool, you flew over my town just south of OTR :) loving the videos, blue skies guys!
This whole journey was amazing and makes me want to get back in the air! Such good content!
You're flying into another countries airspace and you expect them to conform to the airspace where you live. Do your research before you come here!
He didn't expect them to conform, he felt that the ATC was better in North America. Which is true, because as the English pilot explained, ATC support for light aircraft in the UK is almost intermittent at best. It's a real problem with privatized ATC that desperately needs to be sorted.
And no, I'm not an American, so don't get your knickers in a twist.
@@LittleLordFancyLad Well he failed to prepare and understand the differences...
Love the vids Matt. Cool that you're from Aberdeen, SD. While I attended NSU in the early 90"s I worked for Quest Aviation, during its transition from Super 8 Aviation. Brings back a lot of good memories.
You can't see "all of London" in a month let alone a day, LOOL
Excellent video, I feel like I’m there. Great drone shots of Scotland coast and castle.
Great fun video, thanks. Fun seeing food service experiences abroad.
I never really thought it was weird, but then I've not flown anywhere but the UK, in VFR. London Information are awesome though, if you don't know what they want you can always ask them to remind/tell you what they need. You did good though...better than my first go at radio's on a nav flight :P
7:38, you flew right over my home town, just on the curve of the river in South Tyneside. You should have stopped in Newcastle, it's much nicer than London :D
Matthew Richardson looks like a beautiful country!
Would've most likely cost them a lot more landing at Newcastle than Shoreham.
I live there too
Anyone saying that British ATC is no good has clearly never listened to the Speedbird 95 Heathrow tapes. British ATC is the best in the world!
I fly into Heathrow as PIC on a weekly basis. I never knew, until I dealt with EGLL ATC, that the number "8", ICAO phraseology "ATE", was a TWO SYLLABLE word pronounced "AA-YUT". Who wudda thunk????
How much did the fuel cost to get that far? Do you have stats somewhere?
Couldn't agree more with Matt Wardle - this was a badly prepared flight, with a failure to ascertain local rules, an unwillingness to ask before flying, and a failure to understand that they were about to enter some of the busiest, if not in fact the busiest, airspace in the world.There is a degree of arrogance here which could land the fellow in the right hand seat in real trouble sooner or later. It is no accident that the USA has far and away the worst light aircraft crash rate in the world
Why on earth would you possibly think that the US doesn't have the safest aviation record in the world? Nowhere in Britain is the world's busiest airspace (that's southern California, with New York and Chicago being roughly the same as London). And the general aviation accident rate in the UK is many times higher than in the U.S. FFS...
@@mattguthmiller Damn you're a snippy little girl. Just admit you screwed up and looked ridiculous.
@@John-gm5mf Yet, knowhere in all these comments (and I've read them all) does he accept that he might be wrong! Arrogant little piss-pot!
That was Awesome Matt, JP and Louis!!!
Man I've never clicked so fucking fast, loving this series and checking for uploads everyday.
When I flew a twin for the first time in the states and I was equally confused by the lingo and surprised by how everything was so relaxed.
Matt, a tip from a trucker who has used bottles as a bathroom many times. After you dump it out put some mouthwash in the jug and swish it around and leave it in there until the next dump
All of this would have been avoided if you’d filed an IFR flight plan via low altitude airways ahead of time using something like Euro FPL, and been talking to Scottish/London control instead of info (who nevertheless went a long way out of their way to help you). You went a long way to perpetuate the myth of clueless US aviators that we have in the UK on that flight... XD
TerribleFire Saying the UK is clueless about aviation is slightly harsh considering it operates some of the busiest and most congested airspace in the world! Flying GA in the UK really isn’t too difficult so long as you spend a few minutes familiarising yourself with the different services.
Amazing shots guys! Beautiful!!!
So where is the video where you wear all the "pilot" clothes so you can fly other places? Why mention it if you don't show it?
Nice series so far. Looks like a great trip enjoy. Thanks for sharing
The easy way to respond to "Pass your message" is ADDPAA Aircraft, Departing, Destination, Position, Altitude and Any other info including service required.
And he handles all of the food. Nice.
Dangerous...
Do you think the difficulties you experienced were because you are not used to the density of air traffic and controlled airspace in the UK? In the US you have a lot more space, so I expect the workload is a lot lower for a private pilot such as yourself, so you can relax more and get on with flying and not having to worry about where anyone else is. It's the equivalent of someone who has only ever driven on dirt roads in the middle of nowhere deciding to drive into NYC during rush hour whilst in the middle of a teleconference.
I've not flown much in light aircraft but the major thing that stood out to me was how much radio chatter there was and how much my instructor was having to communicate with ATC and other aircraft (this was in the UK, btw). The second thing that stood out was how many other aircraft there were in the air.
Oh yeah sure, if something is different than at home, it's weird 😆. Thank God, at least there was the familiar junk food at the destination🤢. Before I fly in a foreign airspace, I familiarize myself with the local regulations. EASA (you won't know what that is) replaced the "go ahead" with "pass your message" some years ago because "go ahead" can be misinterpreted as "continue your flight". In general, as a pilot I love intellectual challenges and therefore not only like to fly within mainland Europe, but also in England and the USA.
Great Video! I really enjoyed watching it. Thanks!
"If the world could just be the same as the US, it would make sense".
Some dude, 2018.
8:33 while the pilot pees the shadow on his back looks like a wee wee.
There was a perfect translation of a mumbled Danish communication in the Greenland video. The UK video is full of *inaudible*. Gold
In the UK we speak normal. Pick up your speed, open your ears, and use the right number of syllables and you might get on a bit better.
Gorgeous formation footage. I could look at 20 minutes of that alone. I love Beachy Head but have never seen it like that!
But you can keep your salad, I want that lamb burger.
Hope you made it to the Battle of Britain Memorial while you were in London!
Wait for the shake!
on extended flights you may want to look into a texas catheter attached to a ankle bag.. helps on those wind shear flights and generally.. or have the plane's skin pierced with a tap flow
"they talk so funny" - it's called English!