Hi everyone! Just gonna reply to some common replies here that I've seen come up frequently in the comments: 1. Symphony of the Night was actually inspired by the Legend of Zelda. In fact, Igarashi had never even heard of Metroid! - BS. I ain't buying what he's selling there. Yes Zelda was his main inspiration for the overall concept of the game, but there is no way the developers weren't looking at Super Metroid and taking notes from it when designing the world, map, and progression. The similarities are air-tight. 2. Outer Wilds is a Metroidbrainia because of the "lock/key" concept. Where certain areas are "locked" and the knowledge you gain is the "key", just like an upgrade in Metroid. - I see where this angle comes from but I just don't vibe with it personally, I consider this a massive stretch. I acknowledge this and discuss it at 10:44 and stand by what I say in the video here. Knowledge ≠ Upgrades. A lock/key concept can exist in basically any puzzle or mystery adventure game. 3. You're being a bit too hard on Jonathan Blow, what he said about Animal Well wasn't that bad! - The footage I happened to nab was from the beginning of his stream, but later in the stream he started saying really nasty things about the game that are lost to the internet. There's a reason he took down all the VODs. I love Jonathan Blow and was just poking fun at him, it's a known fact even among his fans that he can be a jerk. I found it odd that as an independent dev who knows all the pain and suffering that goes in to making a game from scratch, he would publicly trash Basso's passion project that took him 7 years to make. 4. Tunic can still be a Metroidbrainia because it was inspired by Zelda, which has a lot of similarities with Metroid. - That's like saying Tunic is a Soulslike because both Tunic and Dark Souls can be traced back to Zelda. Yes, Zelda and Metroid share a lot of game design ideas. But Tunic was inspired by Zelda outright. That doesn't mean I would group it in with other games related to Zelda, such as Metroid or Dark Souls. However, I still need to play it to be fully qualified to discuss. Thanks everyone for the support and enjoying the video, can't wait to see what other ideas y'all come up with!
I disagree with your knowledge ≠ upgrades point, the core progression in an MV is gaining new items that give you *new ways to interact with the world.* The exact same point is true of MBs, the new knowledge recontextualises the world you're playing in and gives you new ways to interact with it. (Spoilers for Outer Wilds and Animal Well) For example in Outer Wilds, realising that parts of the solar system are only accessible at certain times is a core revelation (accessing the sun station and brittle hollow's tower of quantum knowledge being key examples), making this realisation gives you a new perspective and allows you to interact with the game differently (in that _when_ you go to an area is just as important as the fact that you do in the first place), thus gaining you access to those areas. And then again with stuff like the tornado secret, the jellyfish secret, how the warp towers work, how the anglerfish works, etc etc, each of these reveals a new way of playing the game that you might not have realised was important before. And in Animal Well, figuring out you can input codes with the flute gives you a new perspective on the world and new ways to interact with it, most primarily _the ability to teleport_ lol. There's also _a lot_ of this in Tunic, but I won't go into details since you have played it (though if you liked the mystery/puzzle elements of OW/AW, I think you'll get on very well with Tunic) As a last note, I will absolutely agree with you that Obra Dinn doesn't belong in this category, it's "just" a puzzle game (a very very good one don't get me wrong), but nothing you do in that game gives you new verbs or ways to interact with it, it's all just using the pocket watch and looking at death scenes from start to finish.
I agree with your point 2. If we begin to call games that have a similar structure Metroidvanias then all games are. Resident Evil 1 is a game where the map is non-linear, where you have several doors behind keys without a tight order on getting them, it has a lot of backtracking, you collect new weapons that can be sconsidered power ups, etc. I dont think RE is a metroidvania XD Metroidvania is a word that is empty of meaning because it doesnt have a strict definition, its filled up with the meaning the gaming comunity is giving to it, and its getting redefined all the time because of it. And its exhausting.
1. Given the fact that most action adventures are inspired by video games from home computers, just as was with Legend of Zelda and Metroid after that,and nobody makes up a nonsensical term based on one of those games, it becomes obvious why the term metroidvania was ass to begin with. And now on top of that make upanother even more stupid sounding term like metroidbrainia shows what world you guys are living in. 2. terms like metroidvania exist because something vibed with someone personally, not because it was good. The use of metroidvania and metroidbrainia are both a massive stretch. The concept behind metroidvania exists in all action adventures and even lots of rpgs. 3. Don't care about this game. 4. Tunic is still an action adventure and puzzles within these games are sometimes really brainy. And despite many games being traced back to Zelda and beyond you guys never call them Zeldalikes. I wonder why. Zeldalike is so much nicer then metroidvania.
Sh*t, you're right.... didn't think that one through. If I ever get a cat I've already decided I'm going to name it "Mouse". I think Mouse is just a great name for a cat for some reason. But if I get a second cat - Beethoven's Piano. 100% no question.
@@BasementDweller_ OMG I didn't even check the name and notice it was Razbuten until now! I'm so stupid haha! Damn, I've been watching his videos for ages! If you're still seeing this Raz, thanks for stopping by and the top-tier comment, love your videos 🙏
Fun fact: Castlevania Sotn creator, Igarashi, said sotn was not inspired by metroid but by zelda, he liked zelda so much that he tried to translate zelda gameplay in a sidescroller perspective. The only thing they got from metroid is the minimap, other than that its just a platformer zelda with vampires instead of elves
Associating Obra Dinn with Metroidvania’s is a wild take, it’s very clearly and obviously a detective game and I’d argue it’s one of the most obvious examples of one.
Super Metroid has a room where the animals teach you how to wall kick which you've been able to do the whole time, so even Super Metroid is a Metroidbrainia.
That's true, I should have mentioned that room as it ties into this video. Super Metroid does have a room where it teaches you things you didn't know you could do, but I wouldn't say that's a core part of the Metroidvania formula, and that sort of cryptic stuff was also quite common in older games. In the original Zelda there's no way you can pass the lost woods unless you know which sequence of directions to walk. In Castlevania 2, there's no way you could know that you have to crouch in front of a cliff for 10 seconds to get warped to the next area. Those kind of knowledge-gates were pretty common in older games.
By the way, you should look into a game called tokitori 2. It is definitely a "Metroidbrainia"v being a 2D backtracking filled maze, having an intended progression route of teaching you new ways to use the same skills with barely anything in the way of actual upgrades.
Can't we just say "knowledge-based game"? It is the most accurate description like with puzzles, platformers or hack & slash. Tunic, obra dim, outer wilds, animal well - they all based on what knowledge does the player has and he does with it, so why not to call them like that?
Yeah I think that's the best term. Although I don't think obra din really is one, nor is animal well, although not sure about that last one I didn't play it much but it seems like a normal metroidvania.
@@k0lpA obra dim whole concept that you need to gather info on who is who, which is literally knowledge. Animal well is based on puzzles, secrets and insane things that you need to figure out, and the only limiting factor, mostly, is your brain and not your abilities or skills
Yeah honestly, I think that's sort of the best. It might make more sense to just call them mystery-adventure games, and you can add "knowledge based" to the top if you want to. That's probably what I'll do going forward! I also agree with this thread that it might not even make sense to force Obra Dinn, Animal Well, and Outer Wilds into the same category at all. They're very different games, and frankly I think the only reason gamers are grouping them together at all is for the sole purpose of helping "Metroidbrainia" take over the land.
@@Josuh kinda but it's different. Games are based around player skills or narrative choices. With puzzles it's more of puzzle can be knowledge based but not every knowledge game is a puzzle, or vice versa. Genre is new so we will yet to grasp it's full meaning
It's a cool name, sure, and I'd like to see it come back, but I can also see how people flocked to the term Metroidvania and similar terms. Instantly unique as a name, and despite the vague-ness of Search Action being arguably more descriptive, it doesn't pop out phonetically like Metroidvania does.
@@aaronokemaysim7310 'Metroidvania' will never make sense because Castlevania has two style of games (stage based and the search action) Like, Haunted Castle Revisited released recently. Old Castlevania still has it place, especially when M2 keeps making these amazing remakes
The issue with that term is that it's not really specific to the genre the discussion is about. The point is to find a fitting name for a genre that uses knowledge as keys to open locks you go back to through backtracking. (Backtracking + Key/Lock is the only thing connecting them to Metroid, and by extension Metroidvanias). I think the main difference compared to "just" adventure puzzle games is that those can be linear and the puzzles might not be (and usually aren't) hidden (like the locks are in games such as Outer Wilds)
The game that fits your definition of metroidbrainia the most is toki tori 2. It's a 2D metroidvania but you learn no abilities, all you can do is chirp and stomp (you're a little chicken), no jumping nothing else and you have to figure out how to use these abilities to interact with creatures and progress. It's a really good game, the little cute graphics make it look like a kid game but it gets pretty challenging and it's really fun to play. It doesn't fit the genre as I see it though, because it's not a mystery game like outer wilds or tunic, you aren't driven by your curiosity and the game doesn't really teach you anything. In outer wilds for example you will read alien text that will give you the knowledge to progress further somewhere, a lot of the time you don't have to use your brain much, it's directly told to you. In toki tori 2 you have to figure out everything, although the level design sometimes force you to figure it out before you can continue. In outer wilds and tunic you aren't supposed to be able to figure out things without having found the knowledge even if it's allowed, usually the answer is so far fetched you wouldn't think about it before you know enough while in toki tori 2 everything is up to you to figure out so it's more brainy, more of a puzzle game and definitely a metroidvania. I don't like the term metroidbrainia to talk about outers wilds or tunic but I think it would fit well with toki tori 2 and animal well because they are metroidvanias, but have a puzzly side to them, instead of abilities acting like keys that lets you progress you have to figure out how to use these abilities in a specific way for it to work. (Sorry third comment lol, this genre is my jam)
"All you can do is chirp and stomp (you're a little chicken)" is the cutest snippet of a comment I've seen on my channel haha. That's friggin adorable. I've heard of Toki Tori but haven't played it, but it looks pretty sick, like a fun little puzzle-metriod. If I can somehow get my hands on that I could see myself playing it on an airplane.
I've used the same argument as to why Outer Wilds isn't much of a puzzle game, and more of a space walking sim. There's very little you need to figure out, just put various bits of info together, mostly for lore reasons. I don't think it's a Metroidbrainia. Toki Tori 2 absolutely is, though.
When I hear that a game is "metroid-whatever" I'm understanding that it has a certain element of gameplay, not that I must associate it as being inspired by metroid... Therefore, I don't care if people use it extremely liberally, as long as the game has some core metroid elements.
That's the thing... Return of Obra dim or whatever it's called ISN'T a game using metroid elements, to my knowledge. I'm not even sure Tunic does, neither. Samef for Outer Wilds and Fez (Though I have played none of those, so could be wrong.)
Wow, can’t believe such a lengthy response to my video nestled in here! I guess I’ve finally made it as a youtuber. Thanks for watching and good luck growing your channel as well! I personally just like the name cause it’s funny and conveys the sense of the idea pretty quickly. I’m not really thinking about the literal game series metroid when I use the term, ya know? Just like I’m not thinking about jelly when I see a jellyfish. Unfortunately these things aren’t always perfect or logical. It could just be that the catchiest name will stick. I remember always using “Skype” as a verb until everyone changed the verb to “Zoom” and I had to begrudgingly accept it. Maybe this will be like that.
Just a minor clarification - I don’t think Skype -> Zoom as a verb was because zoom is more catchy as a word itself; it’s moreso that the platform is the one everyone’s using nowadays, so they use that word to convey that info. After all, they are both names of different communication media. Why should people say Skype if they’re not using Skype? It *is* logical that Zoom replaced Skype as the verb of choice. You can argue that Zoom replacing Skype as a platform was not based on logic but trendiness. I have no strong opinion on that; that said, even before Zoom became a thing in 2020, my impression was that Skype was dated like MySpace was dated (I’ve not used either)
@@cameronschyuder9034Gotcha. I never really used Zoom before corona so I wasn’t aware. But before that I would still use the term “skype” even if it was FaceTime or messenger or whatever, as a generic shorthand for “video call”. Maybe a better example would be “Google It” even if someone uses DuckDuckGo or something.
HOLY SMOKES, it's Tin Sensei himself!! I didn't expect you to see my video at all, let alone day 1. Your Metroidbrainia video is amazing and has over 100k views, so I'd say you're the real deal 😎 I'll be watching the rest. I hear you 100%, it is a fun term. I over-analyze stuff, that's just sort of my thing haha. At the end of the day it's all in good fun and I don't truly have a problem with anyone calling them "Metroidbrainias" if they want to, and I still agree with everything you said in your video about the games themselves. I just feel like there's got to be a better word out there... somewhere... You're right though that it will most likely stick due to how catchy and recognizable it is, and logic-snobs like myself will have to suck it up! Thanks for stopping by and best of luck growing your channel as well! And if I may ask - what mic do you use?! No worries if that's confidential, but you might have the crispiest audio quality I've seen on the 'Tube.
@@mrsnulch Thanks man. It’s just an e385. Got it for about 8,000 yen. I’d say there’s diminishing returns on the mic itself and it’s better to focus on stuff like EQ and compression and what not. I happen to have a bit of background in live sound for shows and speeches, and I learned a lot watching those grizzled vets work about frequency ranges, less is more, yada yada. Anyway, you don’t need to spend more than 100 bucks on the mic itself IMO. Like, SM58 is the industry standard for vocals. I’ll probably make a patreon vid at some point about my specific settings.
@@tin_senseithanks dude! Yeah I totally had a feeling you had some background in sound. I guess you can say you had the “required knowledge” to beat that part of the game we call life haha I used to play in a band so I still have my AT4040 which I run through Ableton to do my VO’s. To be honest, I’m just so dumb I never considered EQing or compressing my voice 😂 I just use the raw recording!!! I’m going to look into this for my next vid. I can probably seriously improve my sound. Much appreciated!
You'd think we'd go back to just calling them adventure games. I mean, it describes all of them. Sure it's general but we're already generalizing in the first place. If a game really needs it we could add extra terms. Action adventure. Point and click. Cinematic platformers. We already have the words to use, people just want everything to relate directly to something popular to get people to try it. Which is understandable of course, but it really is limiting how we discuss these things.
I actually agree with you there. While I say in the video that I think the genre needs a new name, it might well be best to just leave it alone lol. I remember when my friend first told me about Outer Wilds he told me it was basically a cool sci-fi mystery adventure game, which is really all I needed to know. In fact, if he had told me it would be a "knowledge based game", that might have taken away from the experience since I went in blind. So yeah, not sub-categorizing it at all may be the best option. But since "Metroidbrainia" is already halfway done consuming the world, we have no choice but to fight fire with fire! We need to pick a better name before it's too late!
I am actually incredibly glad the generic label of "action adventure" is dying off. Nice to have some specificity in how we group games today, even if it's subject to popularity biases.
If we're just adding terms to "adventure game", I propose "metroid/castlevania-like adventure game". We could even shorten it to "metroid-vania-like" or something
@CheesecakeMilitia it's an umbrella genre, like "action", "strategy" or "puzzle". You can add more specific terms, but as an umbrella It serves its function just fine. Said specific terms have alraady existed. An action adventure 2d platformer, a zelda like, etc. Its an action game with the structure, exploration/puzzle/discovery elements similar to an adventure game. A pure adventure game player would not be interested in them because they are fundamentally built like action games first. A pure action game player might feel like aspects are undermining the moment to moment action. Action adventure works. Still, they are fundamentally an action game subgenre. It's also a structural genre, you could apply it to other genres like a modifier, like roguelike or battle royale. I really don't think it should be less prominent, it's useful, and we already have terms we can use to specify more.
When people play a game like outer wilds or return of the obra dinn, they want to play a game that scratches a similar itch to it. They don't want to just play an adventure game. That's why the term exists.
In Japan they are called search-action and I think it fits well with the genre of video games and what should be done in them, it doesn't matter if you have already played it, the search part is always there
I've never been satisfied with that term. Sounds like collectathon games. You're constantly searching for collectables in Banjo Kazooi The 'utility gated' part seems more important than the action part. Collectathon 3d platformers don't rely on that mechanic.
nah, is not Japan that calls them Search-Action. It's Nintendo because they don't own Castlevania so they can't go "this new Metroid game is like Metroid meets Castlevania: Symphony of the Night" granted, out of all the Nintendo-terms, I think we should replace Free-to-Play with Free-to-Start
I like to call them "Lateral Thinking Puzzle Games". Doesn't really fit, but it's the best I could do. A really good one that just cane out is "Lorelei and the Laser Eyes". More people should check it out
Knowledge locks are a normal part of Metroidvania. I generally agree tho, outerwilds doesnt actually need a different genre. The common factor between the games we talked about is that theyre driven by a sense of discovery. So i think we call them disco
Yeah, I've seen a few people mention this - I just don't personally consider "knowledge locks" to be at all the same as getting a new weapon in Metroid, I don't really like the parallel too much. Either way, "disco games" would be rad as hell.
Metroidbrainia is an evil word trying to infect our brains In Metroid, one of the main villains is Mother Brain... _Motherbrain is BRAINWASHING US FROM THE FUTURE_
Symphony of the night is actually inspired by Zelda 2, it was said in an interview by Igarashi, the guy that did all the castlrvania Metroidvanias era. Also Iconaclast falls in the classification of metroidbrania. The genre is actually a combo of metroid and Zelda but not breath of the wild era.
I liked this video, even though I hadn't heard the "Metroidbrainia" term used yet. I think you did a great job breaking down the genre of Metroidvanias and explaining why they are a necessary component of this new subgenre. I think there's something to be said that there are games outside of pure puzzle games that are a bit more cerebral or require a lot of literary skills to play (such as a western RPG), that players recognize as something different and challenging, so they default to using familiar terms. I appreciate this video's emphasis of needing to use language correctly, that we can't go around using terms improperly; that's how "Metroidvania" got hacked to death. Good vid :)
Yeah I'm definitely a bit snobby without the language, I like things to "fit" logically! But yeah, I can see why people might use this term just as sort of a broad word to help them keep track of a certain type of games, without caring about the morphology. I guess that's not the WORST thing a person can do haha
MetroidBRAINia? La-Mulana cares not how deep a puzzle can get. Every puzzle is a clue to another puzzle, and a playthrough can last from 10 hours to 300 depending on how many notes you take. Even after 12 years and dozens of tries I still haven't reached the end of the game, and it's still my favorite game ever!!!
Here’s what’s really fucked up. I was looking through game recs on the metroidbrainia sub, and saw some people go “what about La Mulana?” and the general response was that “La Mulana doesn’t qualify because it has actual metroidvania gameplay”. Imo, Outer Wilds, La Mulana, and Void Stranger are the big 3 games for “puzzle game with manually assembling plot/lore at the core of the game design”
When I use the word Metroidvania, I no longer do it to describe a game inspired by Metroid, but because there is no other/better word to describe a game that is neither open world nor linear. A game that neither lets you walk down a virtual corridor nor gives you direct access to the entire world and everything you have to do in it, but rather an open world that you have to work out for yourself like a puzzlebox. I understand that many of these games are not inspired by Metroid, but they all share this quality that I love in games and I need a word to describe what I mean when I say what kind of game I like. Yes, Tunic may be inspired by Zelda and not Metroid. But both Tunic and more traditional Zelda games and even the first generations of Pokemon followed this rough formula that I now refer to as a Metroidvania for lack of alternative terms. Ability-based progression and a gradually expanding, ultimately open game world. No matter the setting and no matter if 2D or 3D. That's the kind of game I want more of.
thank you for saying it at 4:43. I kept saying it on my streams and videos that Metroidvania for many games today is 100% inaccurate as 90% of them lack rpg mechanics and equipment with stats, etc. They are all “metroid-likes” where you can’t GRIND until you get stronger and are more like Zelda in which upgrades are not defined by a number that says how strong you are and the progression through the game is 100% like metroid.
I'm sure Metroidvania tag stuck because it's catchy sounding and early on made it sound like you were in the know. As far as the term Metroidvania is concerned though, when I 1st started hearing it the only people I used to hear say it a lot were people who disliked Nintendo. It's most likely these people liked a genre, but didn't want to give Nintendo their due. So adding vania for SotN was a way to imply Castlvania was the real influence. Particularly Sony fans, because SotN was on the PS1. Nevermind facts like: Casltevania games already had exploration elements before SotN (SotN is a sequel to Rondo Of Blood), the Castlevania series predates the PS, that the better version of SotN was on the Saturn, SotN is inspired by Metroid, or more importantly SotN has exploration elements but Metroid is not only fully exploration, but the 1st quintessential exploration game (I'm sure this can be cherry-picked, by mentioning obscure games with hints of exploration elements). It's not like these games came out close to the same time. There's a decade plus gap. The vania is as completely unnecessary as the in in inflammable . It's like if people started calling games roguegungeons instead of rogue-like, because they're more familiar with Enter the Gungeon, than Rogue. Unless a game mechanic defines a genre, I don't think adding it to a genre it's not usually associated with creates a new genre. If I had an exploration game, where the main character had wings and could temporarily fly, along with hovering, gliding, and diving, should I start acting like I invented a new genre... "MetroidRaiser" Metroid plus ActRaiser. Damn! I'm a genius! It's even more of a stretch in this case, because SotN didn't introduce melee-based action platformers, or action-platformers with RPG stats.
I think the term Metroidbrania is sorta like how we still use the word Podcast. I don't think anyone really still records a podcast specifically for the iPod. The emphasis is on the broadcast element, but the "pod" stays in because it's not a live broadcast. Similarly, the Metroid has lost meaning over time. I think Metroidbrania is shorthand for "a game with a focus on exploration, only like a Metroid game on the basis of having 'doors' and 'keys', typically requiring more exploration to find those upgrades which unlock the doors, but instead of being a new power up, it's more information, or a sudden 'aha' moment." So, yeah, it's not an accurate term. They have less to do with Metroid overall and don't need to be tied to that legacy. But I think it's actually more of a complement to be tied to that legacy anyway. Metroidbrania as a term, to me, says "it gives the same feeling as Metroid, but you need to be prepared to have your mind blown. This game has the quality of a triple-a game and will challenge your mental faculties in a way that Metroidvania games don't try."
Except podcast sounds good and feels like an appropriate word for the concept. Metroidbrainia is a convoluted mess, and feels bad to say. 'Knowledge-gated' is cleaner AND makes more sense.
"Know-go" or "know-to-go" games: This is a short, catchy, and rhyming title that susinctly describes the core aspect, namely, progress is gated by lack of knowledge, or progress is possible through knowledge alone. When introducing the concept and short phrase to others, a longer descriptive explanation could be: "when you know, you can go".
Are you referring to Animal Well? If so then yeah, it's a Metroidvania that we can call Metroidbrainia for fun if we want to. The other games I describe aren't even Metroidvanias.
Puzzle mystery. Enigma. The entire game is a puzzle and a mystery, with hidden secrets. There are nested puzzles or hidden puzzles, riddles wrapped in mysteries wrapped in enigmas. And the thing with puzzles is that they are inherently knowledge checkpoints. Enigmania. Puzzlenigma. Secretfest. I like Revelation: maybe Revelatory.
In my mind, metroidvanias (or metroid-likes, you‘ve convinced me that’s a more fitting name) do not really require to be 2d sidescrolling platformers or have to share an aesthetic or setting. The relevant part of what metroid added to 2d sidescrolling platformers is the ability-gated world-progression combined with nonlinearity leading to backtracking. Therefore, to me, a game having these elements at its core makes it a metroid-like/metroidvania.
Or knowledge-gated. Trivia games are knowledge based. The 'gated' concept in Tunic and Outer Wilds forces you to backtrack, explore, and remember places to return to, in large interconnected worlds. That's what separates these from standard puzzle games.
Very good video, thank you for this. I think a lot of people tend to group them together because these games make them feel the same way, and a surface analysis shows that what ties these games together is a strong focus on knowledge, no matter where the designers take their inspirations and what vision they are going for in the first place. As I've said in the comments of the other video, I think that analysis puts too much focus on mechanics, and not enough focus on how these mechanics affect the player's experience. Now, while I agree that these games have similarities, I'm not sure that warrants putting them all in a big box that is a genre. Sure, I love games that rely on knowledge, but that's mostly because I love puzzle games and these games are just the new generation of this big family. What I think about when playing these games is not the fact that they're knowledge-based: The Witness is a puzzle game with non-linear progression, self-explanatory design and a focus on discovering unique ways to hide information. Animal Well is a world full of secrets, its developer must love secrets very very much, I put it in the same category as FEZ and, to a lesser extent, TUNIC (Because half of it is Zelda/Souls). These games also have plenty of "secrets for no one" or mysteries intended for a community to solve. Secrets for their own sake, I feel. Obra Dinn is, as you've said, a detective game, though what sets it apart, to me, is that every element of it is grounded in reality and as such anything can be a clue when put in relation with other information. I think what people like about it and why they link it with the other games is the fact that the puzzle elements are not made explicit and require your critical assessment of literally everything you see as a potential source of information. This feels more "knowledge-based" than other detective games in which the information that is useful to you and the deductions you need to make are more clearly highlighted. As for Outer Wilds, the game that started this whole madness. It is, by the words if its creators, a curiosity-based exploration game. It makes you WANT to do something, requires YOU to decide to do it, and rewards you abundantly for doing that, enabling this behavior by making you want to do even more things afterwards. Knowledge gates are only a small element of that as their purpose is to remove tangible rewards from the game, requiring the player to be invested in the world to even want to do anything. It is also, incidentally, the best game of all time, so uh, that kinda makes it stand out from other games (sorry for the less serious comment here lol). Outer Wilds spawned a new "genre" because it was really fucking good and knowledge gates are the most obvious unique element of its design. People felt a unique thing with it, and seeking this new feeling, latched onto this design element to find new games to play, and now we have metroidbrainias. But I would argue there is currently no "wildslike" game, not to my knowledge anyway. All those other games are really really great, some of my absolute favorites in fact. But I do not know a single other game that puts such a focus on curiosity, exploration, seeking out new information for the sake of it, structuring the game around this behavior, etc.
Amazing video! I will say one part I did disagree with was your comment on Metroid being “open world” to connect it with Fortnite and that the game is about “progression”. I feel like a better term is “Lock and Key”, as most Metroid games aren’t open world, they’re Linear and their non linear parts still end up being linear along the way. The genre is more about being blocked off from somewhere, and then needing something to get past that obstacle. I think a lack of knowledge also fits into the “key” description. Also yeah no Prime is a metroidvania, so they can be 3D
I see where you're coming from with the lock and key thing, but I still consider it to be a forced-parallel to make the knowledge in Outer Wilds feel like upgrades in Metroid. For example, in the original Legend of Zelda, you can't get through the lost woods unless you know which sequence of directions to take. Once you find that out, that's the key to progress. Is that the same as getting an upgrade in Metroid? No, it's a totally different thing. (In my opinion of course). As for considering Prime a Metroidvania, well technically, no it's not. Look at any list of Metroidvanias by any publication, you'll never find Prime on there. You won't find it referred to as such on Wikipedia or anything either. It's designed like a Metroidvania, naturally being a Metroid game itself, but it is not classified as a Metroidvania.
This video sums up the whole struggle of naming genres. We could call metroidvanias "search action" games but then there's games like Animal Well that I struggle to call an action game because there's no combat. Some japanese devs don't like the JRPG label, but then what do we call it instead? We could go with character RPG, but you tell someone you like character RPG's and they won't know what you're talking about. I agree that metroidbrainia needs a new name and that "knowledge based" games could be a decent replacement, but knowledge based also feels too broad of a description. Pretty much any game is easier when you gain new knowledge about it. I'm pretty sure Razbuten (who I saw in the comments of this video weirdly enough lol) made a whole video about how exhausting comparing games to other games is, but there's also no other way to accurately describe something in a quick and concise way. So point is: language is weird and describing things is hard lmao.
You really got near to the heart of the matter in the last minute or so of the video. Metroidbrainia sounds good and it sounds like another genre that already exists and is well liked. Thus, like it or not, the name stuck despite its inaccuracies.
With zero academic rigor, I have anecdotally felt like the definition of what we call "metroidvanias" today is a semi-open world where the shape of gameplay progression is exploring, coming across things that you can't pass and think, "Oh I don't have the thing that opens/unlocks/defeats that yet, I gotta go somewhere else and then come back here later." Then you go get the powerup and backtrack, etc. idk why but I've never associated the genre specifically with combat, so when I heard metroidbrainia for the first time (for outer wilds) it really felt right to me. I think the distinction between 2D and 3D is probably fair, but then I'd just be tempted to call things "2D metroidvanias" and "3D metroidvanias". Oh and also, I think the reason outer wilds maybe helped coin the term is because to most people that played it completely blind (myself included) when reaching a perceived dead end would think "Oh I'll get a stronger jetpack later" or "I bet there's a key somewhere" because we had been trained to expect upgrades by other exploration games with dead ends. I think that similarity and/or twist on metroidvanias really shows in that regard, and may not be as easy to see for people that played outer wilds after having heard about how the game works. Watching this video, I wonder how weird I am for never considering combat to be a part of the definition. But also yeah Obra Dinn being filed as a Metroidbrainia is cap to me, your honor. Thanks for the awesome video!
Your comment made me think about something. I think people see Outer Wilds as a "metroidbrainia" because of these knowledge gates. As you said, when I see a dead end in a metroid game, after trying out the basic "bomb every surface" I think "I don't have the right upgrade". But I did not think like this when I played Outer Wilds. My foremost question when playing OW was "HOW do I get there?". It was absolutely not "I do not have the right knowledge for this" or "Which piece of knowledge will help me solve this". In fact, I think the game would not have been nearly as good if I was thinking like this. I would rather say "let me think: what is this thing? Why do I want to go there? What is there that could help me? Let me try out something. Am I even right in thinking that I need this? Where would I find what I need?". In fact, many places in the game do not strictly require a clearly-defined "piece of knowledge" that's revealed at a particular location in the game, and rather require a general understanding of how the world of the game works and how its elements interact. To name a few: The Han**** Ci**, the To*** of Qu***** K********, the To*** of Qu***** Tr****, part of the St**** Wor*****, the So****** Ob*********, Es**** P** 3, and, of course, the A** T*** P******. This sets the game's "knowledge gates" completely apart from "upgrade gates" as that property of vagueness and synthesis is unique to them.
Since you can beat the first Myst game right from the start in a few minutes if you know what to do then it is indeed a Metroidbr... I mean WILDSLIKE! :^)
@@morpheuslunae4196 All we need is "Has 'meh' visuals (The Witness)" and "Has 'shitty' visuals (Return of the Obra Dinn)" to have Myst-Green likes and lites, Myst-Red likes and lites, and Myst-Blue likes and lites
the thing is, Metroid is already kinda based on Zelda's progression system. ... actually, y'know how the first Legend of Zelda game is already kind of heavily knowledge-gated, since the final 3rd of the game (and pretty much all of 2nd Quest, tenfold) requires you to uncover the dungeon entrances, a thing you might not even be aware is possible. is _it_ a metroidbrainia?
That totally speaks to my point and I've mentioned this in a few threads. In the original LoZ there's no way you can get through the lost woods unless you know the directions you have to walk. That kind of knowledge-gated game design is simply a different thing to me than finding an upgrade in Metroid, so I can't get behind the parallel. People say that there's a lock and the knowledge is the "key" just like Metroid, but I still disagree. These are different things. So no, LoZ is NOT a Metroidbrainia at ALL - but believe me, the word will spread, and soon it will be. We can't stop it.
@@mrsnulch I still think it's a bit odd to draw a line between top-down/3D equipment-based action adventure games ("Zelda clones") and side-scrolling equipment-based action adventure games ("metroidvanias"). honestly, the fact that we try to create individual genre titles for things that are even _that_ specific causes more problems than it solves. if instead we had better words to describe individual core game mechanics/ideas everything would be a lot easier.
I always thought it was dumb that bullet-heaven genre became "vampire survivors like" as if genre didnt already exist. I mean its a great game, but it isn't a new genre
My understanding of a metroidvania is that it's a game with many 'locks' and 'keys' in a (at least somewhat) open world of sorts. The 'keys' are abilities and items that you gather around the map while the 'locks' are where you would use said items and abilities to either progress the story or otherwise unlock more of the map to explore and gather more items and abilities. Hollow Knight comes to mind here. And then metroidbrainia would be a game wherein rather than items or abilities, the 'keys' are merely information you don't yet realize you already have access to, and in playing through the game you slowly come to learn what it is you must do in order to progress or otherwise overcome a 'lock'. Progress and exploration is gated less by what items or abilities you have, and more what you know, and if you begin the game from the very beginning after completing it you can likely complete a vast majority or large chunks of the game. Outer Wilds comes to mind here. I agree that metroidbrainia might not be the best name for such games, but if I use this definition I can definitely see how people have come to call it that, haha. Doesn't help either when it's a combo of sorts, utilizing information, items, and abilities. Tunic comes to mind here.
I always felt like this is the kind of thing where trying to boil down an entire game into a single label is going to cause a lot of problems. There are too many components and labels in these types of games, so trying to put them all under one single term is going to dilute the term so much that its nearly pointless. It doesn't do much good to tell me that Fez is a MetroidBrainIa, what gives me info is saying that its a 2D platformer with puzzles and collecting (and whatever other labels you want to add in) I don't mind the idea of making a new genre called metroidbrainia, I just don't think we should try to describe games as only being in that category. My suggestion for such a label to add to the list of labels for a game would be something like: Knowledge-Lock or Knowledge-Gate. The idea being that the label focuses on your level of knowledge being the thing that progresses your state in the game. So a game like Animal Well would be a: 2D, platformer, open world, Knowledge-Gate game. Or whatever labels you want to use for its mechanics.
Tbh rain world is a hardcore platformer, ecosystem simulation game with knowledge based system(as karma gates, mark of communication etc.) and tunic is zelda like, soul game combats with pez X the witness puzzles based on knowledge based system(the holy cross, trunic etc.). They both have small bits of metroidvania systems as traversing rooms again and again, finding ways to enter the new zone and more. But they are not in your zone of metroidbrainia, since tunic is not a 2d sidescroller, and rain world does not give you new technics to traverse rooms. Its really hard to categorize these 'games based on knowledge', since the only same thing they got is that knowledge is power. I might even call these games "The More You Know Games" from now on lol
the main undercurrent of all these games, and the reason they get tied to metriod, are logic gates. people have compared the logic gates in these games to the "upgrade gates" in metroidvanias, which is typically the main part of being a metroidvania. granted, the comparison to a logic gate and an "Upgrade gate" is flimsy. these are logic, or knowledge gate games, with an element of backtracking/ retreading your steps typically tied in. however once you have the knowledge you can get through the gates, hence the incredible lack of replayability. so i would dub these "Knowledge key" games, or something similar.
basically the only difference with this and a normal mystery game is that you have to find the answer then go back to the place that needs the solution. its a mystery with more steps, which makes it more dynamic.
But doesn't every game have Knowledge Gates? Lethal Company for example, the bracken enemy is a knowledge gate. If you know to not look at it for too long, you'll live. That requires knowledge. Is Earthbound a Knowledge Key Game too? One half of that game is knowing where to go and what to do, the other half is knowing how to defeat the enemies in battle. You can't turn a game mechanic that is used in every game whether you realize it or not into a genre, because then every game that has a part that requires you to have knowledge of what to do goes under that genre.
The defining aspects of metroidvanias are just 1) non-linear exploration, and 2) upgrade-gated progression. It's so named because these are what Metroid and Castlevania games have in common, not because it's a mash-up of elements from the two series. To get that wrong means you don't fully understand the genre. Outer Wilds fits both criteria, except the upgrades are pieces of knowledge. Fortnite OTOH is not even close. Every match is in an arena you already have full knowledge of, and you're not gated from any of it. Better gear in Fortnite just makes you stronger in the multiplayer match, and doesn't unlock new portions of the game for you.
No need for the attack-on-person argument. I've played every Metroidvania I could get my hands on, all the metroid games, and all the castlevania games, so yeah I understand the genre. Non-linear exploration and upgrade-gated progression were both in Super Metroid, so my point stands that Metroidvanias are just any game with those elements from Super Metroid. Of course that's what Metroid and Castlevania have in common. It's also what Metroid and Hollow Knight or Axiom Verge have in common, because it was already there in Metroid. It's a known fact that Metroidvanias are intrinsically more linked to Metroid than Castlevania - you can read the Kotaku article in the description for more info. SOTN introduced RPG mechanics like leveling up and skill points, and a variety of different weapons / spells / summons, and in my opinion, that's where the real mash-up comes from. I see what you are saying with Outer Wilds but disagree for the reasons stated in the video, and in this case, because it violates your second point. I don't consider knowledge the be the same as upgrades at all, so it's not upgrade-gated progression.
@@mrsnulch There is no mash-up. If you understand that metroidvania refers to a particular subset of features that both SM and SotN have in common, then why do you keep insisting that the -vania part is irrelevant just because SotN's RPG elements aren't among the defining features of metroidvanias? Without the -vania part, a term like "metroid-like" would be too vague, and can include any number of metroid's other features. Sci-fi platformer? Blaster you can charge? Combat upgrades? Rooms separated by mechanical doors? Lots of minor enemies punctuated by the occasional boss fight? That's literally Megaman, which traditionally do not contain any of the core metroidvania elements but would arguably be a metroid-like OTOH, anybody that has played both SM and SotN would immediately understand which exact features you're talking about when you use "metroidvania", even if they've never heard the term before
Actually Most Metroidvanias railroad you down a path, if anything it's referred to as guided non linearity. Even then some games are the exception like Hollow Knight. All metroid games are made on a interconnected map so anything in an open sandbox isn't remotely related to the genre. All outer wilds is, is a non linear puzzle game. You don't gain powers and you don't navigate a focused map.
@@logiclunacy606 "Guided non-linearity" is still non-linear. It's literally in the name. Metroidvanias can't be completely free-access anyway due to the lock-and-key nature of the upgrades and map. You will have to find some things before other things, though there might be multiple paths available. As for the map, it sort of depends on how much of a structure-purist you are. Sure, it's not a 2D side-scrolling map, but Outer Wild's solar system is objectively an "interconnected map", with space as the corridors, and planets as the different areas of the castle. The only difference is the structure and method of traversal. Regardless of whether meta knowledge counts as "upgrades" in the traditional sense, knowledge in OW definitely acts as keys. You obtain said keys by exploring the interconnected map, and those keys unlock other parts of the map, which lets you obtain other keys. Exactly like in other metroidvanias.
@@edamael Guided non linearity is just a term.... To be honest its actually refers to linearity disguised as non linearity. If you are being forced down a set route then it's linear. The fact is the majority of Metroidvanias are like this. There are several examples of 3d vania like maps, metroid prime is an example of a metroidvania that deals with multiple planets but is also segmented by it's corridor or arena level design that is closed off from freedom. In the Outer wilds you have full freedom to go wherever which makes it a sandbox and not a controlled map. It also has full 3d rotation on all planets meaning that the planets you go on also have full freedom.... Making it more of an open world game. A crucial component to a metroidvania is a powers used to overcome locks but with full freedom there is none of that gameplay loop. In a puzzle game you need to progress each puzzle to get further into the game thus a gameplay loop is there, doesn't have to be in an order because puzzle games do not have that guard post that says this game can't be open or closed because puzzle games only have a gameplay loop of solving puzzles and further progression. The only thing that stops dark souls from being a metroidvania is you don't gain any sort of ability, just items or interactions that enable you to go further. This video is also right that are Metroidvanias are tied in by super metroid mostly and castlevania only got coined on to the term due to popularity. What the video got wrong was symphony was inspired by Zelda and not metroid.... Symphony actually only has a small amount powers that barely hang it on to the metroidvania genre, that being the high jump, the bat form and mist power. Though Igarashi coined a different genre to refer to RPG Metroidvanias known as IGAvanias which include the gameplay loop of a metroidvania as well possible key items and stat based mechanics.
Great video, and I couldnt agree more. Some years ago I read this "game genere anallisis" that talked about how videogames is the only narrative medium that categorizes its generes into tecniques and not into narrative themes or artistic movements. How cinema's generes are based on what is the film about or its setting, like horror, drama or western, and its style or artistic movements, like the german impresionism, Hollywoods golden age or dogma cinema. The same can be seen in dancing, music, painting etc. No one would called the Mona Lisa "an sfumato piece" dispite being the most iconic painting with that technique, we would call it a reinassance portrait, artistic movement + theme. We dont call it "distorted guitar" wer call it Rock music. And therefore is weird that we call games "first person shooter" or "plataformers" when within the same genere we can have horror themes or andventure themes. And it often makes it very difficul for players to find games that are similar to what they like. If you liked Obra Dinn your first impulse won't be to play Animal Well cause they are mechanically oposite. I think its a great debate, and one that we should bring up more often :)
Something like KBA - Knowledge-Based Adventure. I added the adventure because Outer Wilds should probably be called a First Person KBA at most, with KBA being the most important part, not the subgenre. I feel like Animal Well is indeed the only one with a proper description mentioned. Tunic could be an Action KBA or however people describe Zelda (Action Adventure?). In any case, I'm just happy that we got to see the consolidation of this genre with games such as Outer Wilds that creates such unique experiences at this moment in time.
As a mod of the “metroidbrainia” subreddit, I can say that many (most?) of us over there share the ambivalence (at best) about the term “Metroidbrainia”, while still appreciating the fact that this nascent genre (if it is indeed a genre) is bringing people together who appreciate similar games that push beyond puzzling to something… more, and certainly something underdefined. The challenge of generating a new genre is that it’s always going to be imperfect, and retcon-ish. Yet does the term provide utility? Arguably, yes. After playing Tunic, I asked for recommendations of similar games and got Death’s Door above all others. While a pleasant game, the primary similarity was the art style. I was actually looking for something mindful and transcendent, not just something that looks cute. The “metroidbrainia” recs have done a better job of pointing me and many toward games they’ll enjoy, even if the term is imprecise. I enjoyed Obra Dinn far more than Death’s Door, but I wouldn’t call it a Metroidvania derivative, any more than I would call death’s door one. Still, the term provides _some utility_ in the meantime. Hence, as a mod again, keeping games like Obra Dinn and The Witness as game flairs in the subreddit, even though I personally don’t think they should “qualify”. All this discussion comes down to is what a “genre” actually is, and what work it does. You seem to define genres by “genealogy”, which is cool, but there are plenty of other ways. I don’t find any approach particularly satisfying yet, but that’s what it means to be in the early throes of these conversations. As a final note, see my comment here, which tries to break down the reasons why this term is struggling, namely, it’s trying to encompass too much: www.reddit.com/r/metroidbrainia/s/xueUC9JOba
Yeah I take the more analytics / genealogical approach personally, but I understand that for some, it is acceptable for it to be used more broadly. That just isn't my style. Death's Door is a solid game and also 100% inspired by Zelda, it's basically a cool little Zelda clone. As for Obra and Witness, yeah of course keep them in the subreddit, they've already been established as such and even though I disagree with the placement, it's still worth having them there for the discussion!
@@jkjkrandom Actually as I mention in the video, The Witness and Obra Dinn actually both predate Outer Wilds by a couple years, so if we are going to group these games together at all, Outer Wilds isn't the first one. @FlatThumb Puzzle-Ex is fun haha! I wouldn't go with Well-Like since I consider Animal Well to actually be a Metroidbrainia and I don't think the other games are really similar to it.
No one will ever be happy with any label, they are inherently limiting. It removes the unique quality of a thing to just slap on a generic term like FPS or Metroidvania. It’s just shorthand. Once you’ve experienced a game of course it will have more nuance and originality than a genre label can provide. After playing Animal Well, to call it a metroidbrania is flippant. It’s just Animal Well now. But to someone who hasn’t played it, metroidbrania it s a serviceable label which creates a rough idea of the experience. That being said, some people seem to get label happy… When you find something new and fun, which is unique and genre defining, you start to look for that experience everywhere…
At first I think I would be apprehensive to the idea 3D games cant be Metroidvania's, but then I gave it some time to stir and cook. I agree, because 2D level design is so far and away much different with its own issues separate from 3D games and 3D game's have their own issues to tackle. While certain overarching elements align, I think those 3D game's might have to use their own term as it ends up creating entirely different game feels as platforming is also changed along with it. As for a new "Metroidvania" name replacement, NL-PAGE games doesn't quite roll off the tongue though, yet it's not so bad. At least there is 1 word that looks familiar; PAGE being platforming ability-gated exploration. ~~Non-linear PAGE games~~ kind of sounds alright, and we don't really need to "acronymize" Non-linear since it really is key in this genre. Its not like its that much harder to say than "Metroidvania". And the word "Page" can be seen as a signifier of a 2-dimensional piece of work, so its implied these are 2D games. As for "Metroidbrainia", I think they miss out ENTIRELY what their core gameplay is and what draws players to them, which is information being hidden from you. They are Non-linear Information Gated Progression games, as not all of them involve platforming nor is it key. Tunic is ABSOLUTELY this. Its entirely gated by information down to its game's "Manual". Yet there is very little if any platforming at all in it. And honestly, Non-linear is a bit of a misnomer as its already implied, misleading, or not at all as important as the "information Gated" aspect. And I would like to state this is different from a puzzle game, as puzzles present them selves as challenges to overcome. Information Gated progress will NOT PRESENT ITESELF! Hell you can go through multiple playthroughs in some of these games and just not be aware of some of the solutions to problems you didn't know were problems yet. Non-linear IGP games is about as good of a description you get without hyper focusing on the wrong aspects of the genre while keeping it open to be used for many different games. Still not catchy though. Anyways gotta get back to developing my Metroidvania game lmao. School starts again soon and I won't have 24 hour days free anymore.
"Knowledge-based-progression" mfers when they discover puzzle games !!!!1!!1! Seriously though we can call these "Non-linear Puzzle Games", since that is the most descriptive and accurate genre title. Though they might have platforming or combat, they're puzzle games at heart, with puzzles that you move through in a purposefully non-linear fashion. Therefore: "Non-linear Puzzle Games."
Obra Din has nothing to do with metroidvanias or metroid"brainia" which isn't a term I like. There is no progression, it's a deduction game. The witness is an open world puzzle game, nothing to do with anything metroidvania. A metroidvania is a game that is somewhat open and you progress by getting new abilities and then backtracking to areas where that ability let's you progress. A metroidbrania (which I prefer to call knowledge based games, or games with knowledge based progression) is the same but instead of finding abilities you find knowledge that you can then apply to progress in other areas. Tunic and outer wilds are the only real knowledge based games in this video. For tunic it comes a bit later, at first it just seems like an action adventure game. I think another game that fits the genre is chants of senaar although it is pretty linear. The term knowledge-based games has been you for years now since outer wilds came out, I don't know why we would need a new word for it.
I'd argue that you should leave out the time-loop part for others to discover for themselves. The devs kept it in the Steam store page though, I guess to pique interest
@@edamael yeah it’s hard to balance because my friends are all grown up and don’t have a lot of time to experiment on new games, so I have to give a strong hook to convince them to use their precious gaming time on a chance
I feel like there are lots of improperly or not even named genres. There’s a genre of games people call “speedrun games”, games like neon white, ghost runner, and kick b*stards. They’re really, REALLY fast-paced games where levels take literal seconds and if you’re good enough, the levels are impossible short. And it has no name! This genre was brought to me through a channel called Blargis, whose making a game like the ones i listed, and they’re really fun. I also saw a Circletoons HD video about games like these, and they really need a name. Speedrun-game isn’t good enough. Don’t know what it would be called
It's funny, before I heard this term, outer wilds gave me hardcore metroid prime vibes, especially about scanning and reading about an extinct alien race, and the space exploration and backtracking aspect. One of the reasons I kept playing through the game.
Oh yeah, it definitely is reminiscent of Prime and while I don't think that was their main goal, the inspiration may well have been there. That's why I'm a little less stubborn with the idea of calling Outer Wilds a Metroidbrainia - there's a good bit of Metroid in there. It's the overall attempt to group it in with Obra Dinn and the Witness and Tunic and Animal Well etc into the "Metroidbrainia" umbrella that I can't get behind.
Because that's a long phrase for a niche genre. Fans want a shorthand. And non-linear implies you can tackle challenges in any order, but these games usually guide you through a specific order of discoveries.
@@arckinenso7615 "non-linear" means that it isn't played linearly. If something isn't a straight line, it doesn't automatically make it a circle. And "non-linear" is to replace metroidvanias that aren't inspired by metroid. You don't need every single aspect of the game to fit into a single genre type. Genres are literally designed to be purposefully vague to give game devs the ability to think of how to use these aspects of the genre creatively. We don't need a single genre name for a game that is non-linear and a puzzle game and an adventure game, the whole point of there already being names for those genres is to allow other genre labels to explain other aspects of the gameplay rather than just shoving the game into a small box and making sure no part of it is sticking out of the lid.
Two things: 1) Symphony of the Night was inspired by Zelda; not Metroid. This due to Zelda being significantly more popular and well-known. (The progression and navigation systems still ended up being more like Metroid, however. Probably just because it's a more intuitive way to do it with an action platformer core.) 2) Someone claiming to have coined the term "Metroidvania" basically used it to mean "a game similar to Super Metroid or post-Rondo Castlevania". Third thing 💢: 3) A Metroidvania doesn't have to be a 2D side-scroller. It's an action adventure subgenre distinct from Zelda-likes primarily through their focus on platforming and their interconnected/zone-oriented world and progression design, in contrast to Zelda's overworld and dungeons. Metroid Prime and UNSIGHTED are Metroidvanias.
Petition to rename the genre to ShlipShlop just because that'd be funny to say in public, like you're just talking about games with your co-workers and you go "oh hey, you guys play any good ShlipShlops lately? Yeah I'm a bit of a ShlipShlop nut, I've been catching up with a ton of the classic ones lately".
The thing is that metroidvanias are item-gated non-linear games, while these are knowledge-gated non-linear games; both are under the non-linear umbrella (along with skill-gated and character-progression-gated), and while there is a lot of overlap they are different flavors and deserve different names. We don't call Breath of the Wild a metroidspiritorbia. I propose just going the fps route and just using an acronym: KGG for Knowledge Gated Game, IGG for Item Gated Game, etc or something similar.
One problem with defining genres as "like" other games (eg metroidvania, roguelike, souls-like, etc) is that there are several different types of genre; there's story genre, theming genre, gameplay genre, and the one this argument is centered around, progression genre. When you define a genre as "like" another game, at first that genre is composed of games that are like that game in most, if not all, of those genres. Over time, however, more and more games are made and each draws from different other games as well, until only a few core ideas of the original game are still considered important for the genre. A good example of this is roguelikes, where they were originally turn-based top-down dungeon crawlers with procedural generation, and ASCII art, but lost more and more of those traits and now, it just means permadeath and procedural generation, and there's also roguelites, which are the same but with a lesser degree of permadeath. Roguelike isn't an entirely inaccurate term, its just that most are only "like Rogue" in the genre of progression, but are not "like Rogue" in the genres of gameplay, art, theming, etc. Similarly, Animal Well is "like Metroid" in the genre of progression, but its gameplay genre is puzzle platformer rather than action platformer, its theming genre is a surreal world full of animals rather than sci-fi and aliens, etc., and you have The Witness, where the only similarity is the progression genres both being non-linear, but they aren't even the same type of non-linear progression so it doesn't make sense to call it a metroidvania.
Metroid got its progression system FROM Zelda, so you not seeing how a game that looks Zelda-like can also be Metroid-like is baffling. Also, I broadly agree with you, but once you play TUNIC you'll 1000% see how much like Animal Well it is in terms of being a (I hate the word, too) Metroidbrainia. I would argue that perspective, art style, and gameplay/combat aren't indicative of a Metroid-like/Metroidvania. I think the term really only applies to a game's progression system of how the playable world opens up to you.
It's... peculiar that some sources claim Metroid was developed in response to Zelda's success, given that that would leave it with a development cycle of like 4 months. That doesn't line up well with claims that Metroid's development started over from scratch partway through, and claims from other sources that the two action adventures were in development simultaneously.
That's a solid counter-argument. But even so, that still only leaves Tunic and I ultimately don' think it really makes sense to then try to group Obra Dinn and the Witness in with it in an attempt to make Metroidbrainia happen. I think these are all very different games with different roots, and it's the knowledge thing that ties them together, not the Metroid thing. I'd also argue that since Zelda predates Metroid slightly, if a game is heavily inspired by Zelda it doesn't make sense to associate it with Metroid to me. But Zelda / Metroid do have similar progression with the upgrades and items so it does get a bit muddy haha
@@JediMB Yeah it's hard to say. Given that both games were developed by Nintendo, there may have been some overlap in development which allowed for similar ideas about progression, items, exploration etc to come up in both games. I think he's referring to Super Metroid specifically. It came out 3 years after Link to the Past, so it likely took some ideas from that game.
@@mrsnulch The idea that the original Metroid was developed as a response to Zelda's success is actually on Wikipedia, with The Metroid Retrospective (2007) as its source. No idea what exactly the video says, though, since I can't get the archived version to play.
I don't know anything about Animal Well other than what was in this video, so I don't know how much knowledge actually helps you in terms of progression, but solving the main puzzle of translating the language in Tunic really wasn't all that helpful. I was expecting a lot of helpful information, and I mostly got a lore dump. It's very much a Zelda/Souls-like with a overarching puzzle, but the knowledge was really of very little help to me compared to something like Outer Wilds, where knowledge is everything.
The witness is excluded as just Puzzle genre because putting the pieces together can feel different each time you “assemble the pieces”/solve the puzzle
The issue with classifying knowledge-based games is that the concept that ties it all together is very abstract. With other genres like first person shooters, bullet hells, fighting games, or racing games the name tells you exactly how the gameplay mechanics will be. With soulslikes, roguelikes or metroidvanias it tells you what structure the game will follow, along with some genre-specific conventions. These games have none of that in common, if we want to classify them we need something more akin to to the labels simulation game, adventure game or action game. Those labels tell you a game possesses one very specific trait, in such a way that the games carrying that label can have very distinctive gameplay elements and conventions while still conveying that they are part of one category that users search for. Honestly, I think knowledge-based is the best thing we call games following this design philosophy because the progression being heavily dependent by knowledge of the mechanics instead of mechanical skill, abilities, or character stats, is the only thing they have in common.
Knowledge-gated. Trivia games are knowledge based. The gated exploration, where knowledge is deeply integrated into how you explore, is the core of the genre. The revelations about what you can do in the world giving you new perspectives on previous areas and revealing routes you could have taken if you knew..
3:30 I mean you probably have missed since it has been lost to time, but metroidvania was literally only about castlevania SoTN. Like it's what castlevania fans called it sometimes as pejorayive as it was not classic castlevania, so you are way righter on the term than you think t. an old fart
there's term secondary to metroidvania that is used, mostly in japanese circles, called search-action, describing the two mains actions the player often does. through that perspective, "metroidbranias" are just, search-puzzles, because that's the 2 "modes" that players engage in.
in my opinion, the key point of a metroidvania, as the term is currently used, is that progression is chiefly governed by item-based recontextualization of prior content. and then it follows that a metroidbrainia--epitomized by outer wilds--is that progression is chiefly governed by knowledge-based recontextualization of prior content. it is a misnomer when used in this sense; there is no "metroid" or "vania" as much as there is "metroidvania" as that term has evolved its usage beyond its source games. i make no claim that this is the most efficient or helpful way to refer to things. anyways. here are some of my takes based on these interpretations of the words as-used: - outer wilds is THE metroidbrainia (and yet, it is not a metroidvania). to the point that if i had to choose a game to rename the genre around, it'd be outer wilds. of course, naming genres based on games in the first place is misguided. - animal well is not a metroidbrainia. it's just a puzzle metroidvania. (if there's much more content in the postgame than i've found, feel free to disregard this) - the messenger is barely a metroidvania, if at all. - tunic is an action adventure with a metroidbrainia (yet non-metroidvania) sidequest.
Your "mistake" (quotes because I think its more of an opinion than a mistake) is insisting that it has to be a subgenre of Metroidvania because of the Metroid part, but I disagree, as @mmo4754 said the metroid in the name only means that has a certain element of gameplay simmilar to metroid (in this case non-linear and gated exploration), not that its inspired by metroid. So basiclly both genres has somehting to do with metroid, but the both are something more specific than this in a way that they cant be a subgenre of each other, as you said metroidvanias are "non-linear platforms with ability-gated exploration" while metroidbranias are "non-linear games with knowledge-gated exploration". I just found a bit ironic when you dont want to call this games Metroidbrania because of purism of the Metroid origin, but wanna call Animal Well when the term Metroidbrania was first use to describe The Witness (and quickly FEZ and Outer Wilds too) With that said, I think you have a point when saying that it is a diservice to the inovation brillance of Outer Wilds and The Witness (never played Return of the Obra Dinn, and by your video looks like even my definition of metroidbrania doesnt fit, so thats why I am not including in this comment). In the end no-one will ever 100% agree in what defines a genre and which games are in it, since its a spectrum and some games are on the edge and/or combine genres. Overall I think the video was great and honestly got me thinking, I am still not sure If I should ditch the metroidbrania name for this genre or not. What this whole discussion got me thinking its about and way older and estiblish genre that got a way bigger, but simmilar, name problem: RPG, as far as I am aware the name came from because the first ones in the gerne were inspire but D&D, but what defines the genre has nothing to do with what defines Table-top RPGs or with Role-Playing, curious to see your opinion on the name of this genre too.
Steam users will see any vague exploration game and tag it Metroidvania. I love Dead Cells but it kills me to see that game being tagged Metroidvania by people that don't know what the term means. When you explain that it requires to have backtracking their brain brings up a 404 message.
What, people are calling Dead Cells a Metroidvania?! Yeah, I love that game to death and no way. It's a roguelike. I think terms like this expand. In fact, I wouldn't even call Cave Story a Metroidvania. It's one of my favourite indie games ever and it's often called the original "indie Metroidvania", but it has a much more linear design.
I would definitely not call it a metroidvania but early-game it definitely has metroidvania elements with the rune abilities having to be unlocked to get to previously inaccessible locations, like the climbing rune or the teleportation rune. But at its heart the game is still much more a rogue lite than a metroidvania, especially since the runes are unlocked quite quickly and from then on there are no metroidvania elements anymore.
How about gnosis-games? Gnosis is a Greek word for knowledge, but in English it takes on a meaning of spiritual insight, personal revelation, or transcendence.
Being of Greek blood myself I almost approve - although I find the word maybe a bit too tongue-twistery! Way better than Metroidbrainia though, so I'd take it.
Historical context, the metroidbrania subreddit was literally created when someone in r/TheWitness made a thread asking what the name of the genre for The Witness is, and a reply joking that it should be called Metroidbrainia spawned the sub
See the problem with me is that I LOVE looking like a pretentious dingus. I'm a snot-nosed snob, I know it, and I have 0 shame getting balls-deep in an argument about the word "Metroidbrainia" and whether or not we should say it haha. With that said I'm not familiar with the IDM situation. But I'm sure I would have loved it.
Technically the first Metroid like Castlevania where exploration is the core focus is the first game on the MSX, the second one is the very second Castlevania game and I'd argue both of those had the most influence on the creation of Symphony of the Night, though the map is similar to Metroid.
Hi everyone! Just gonna reply to some common replies here that I've seen come up frequently in the comments:
1. Symphony of the Night was actually inspired by the Legend of Zelda. In fact, Igarashi had never even heard of Metroid!
- BS. I ain't buying what he's selling there. Yes Zelda was his main inspiration for the overall concept of the game, but there is no way the developers weren't looking at Super Metroid and taking notes from it when designing the world, map, and progression. The similarities are air-tight.
2. Outer Wilds is a Metroidbrainia because of the "lock/key" concept. Where certain areas are "locked" and the knowledge you gain is the "key", just like an upgrade in Metroid.
- I see where this angle comes from but I just don't vibe with it personally, I consider this a massive stretch. I acknowledge this and discuss it at 10:44 and stand by what I say in the video here. Knowledge ≠ Upgrades. A lock/key concept can exist in basically any puzzle or mystery adventure game.
3. You're being a bit too hard on Jonathan Blow, what he said about Animal Well wasn't that bad!
- The footage I happened to nab was from the beginning of his stream, but later in the stream he started saying really nasty things about the game that are lost to the internet. There's a reason he took down all the VODs. I love Jonathan Blow and was just poking fun at him, it's a known fact even among his fans that he can be a jerk. I found it odd that as an independent dev who knows all the pain and suffering that goes in to making a game from scratch, he would publicly trash Basso's passion project that took him 7 years to make.
4. Tunic can still be a Metroidbrainia because it was inspired by Zelda, which has a lot of similarities with Metroid.
- That's like saying Tunic is a Soulslike because both Tunic and Dark Souls can be traced back to Zelda. Yes, Zelda and Metroid share a lot of game design ideas. But Tunic was inspired by Zelda outright. That doesn't mean I would group it in with other games related to Zelda, such as Metroid or Dark Souls. However, I still need to play it to be fully qualified to discuss.
Thanks everyone for the support and enjoying the video, can't wait to see what other ideas y'all come up with!
I disagree with your knowledge ≠ upgrades point, the core progression in an MV is gaining new items that give you *new ways to interact with the world.* The exact same point is true of MBs, the new knowledge recontextualises the world you're playing in and gives you new ways to interact with it.
(Spoilers for Outer Wilds and Animal Well)
For example in Outer Wilds, realising that parts of the solar system are only accessible at certain times is a core revelation (accessing the sun station and brittle hollow's tower of quantum knowledge being key examples), making this realisation gives you a new perspective and allows you to interact with the game differently (in that _when_ you go to an area is just as important as the fact that you do in the first place), thus gaining you access to those areas. And then again with stuff like the tornado secret, the jellyfish secret, how the warp towers work, how the anglerfish works, etc etc, each of these reveals a new way of playing the game that you might not have realised was important before.
And in Animal Well, figuring out you can input codes with the flute gives you a new perspective on the world and new ways to interact with it, most primarily _the ability to teleport_ lol.
There's also _a lot_ of this in Tunic, but I won't go into details since you have played it (though if you liked the mystery/puzzle elements of OW/AW, I think you'll get on very well with Tunic)
As a last note, I will absolutely agree with you that Obra Dinn doesn't belong in this category, it's "just" a puzzle game (a very very good one don't get me wrong), but nothing you do in that game gives you new verbs or ways to interact with it, it's all just using the pocket watch and looking at death scenes from start to finish.
I agree with your point 2. If we begin to call games that have a similar structure Metroidvanias then all games are. Resident Evil 1 is a game where the map is non-linear, where you have several doors behind keys without a tight order on getting them, it has a lot of backtracking, you collect new weapons that can be sconsidered power ups, etc. I dont think RE is a metroidvania XD Metroidvania is a word that is empty of meaning because it doesnt have a strict definition, its filled up with the meaning the gaming comunity is giving to it, and its getting redefined all the time because of it. And its exhausting.
1. Given the fact that most action adventures are inspired by video games from home computers, just as was with Legend of Zelda and Metroid after that,and nobody makes up a nonsensical term based on one of those games, it becomes obvious why the term metroidvania was ass to begin with. And now on top of that make upanother even more stupid sounding term like metroidbrainia shows what world you guys are living in.
2. terms like metroidvania exist because something vibed with someone personally, not because it was good. The use of metroidvania and metroidbrainia are both a massive stretch. The concept behind metroidvania exists in all action adventures and even lots of rpgs.
3. Don't care about this game.
4. Tunic is still an action adventure and puzzles within these games are sometimes really brainy. And despite many games being traced back to Zelda and beyond you guys never call them Zeldalikes. I wonder why. Zeldalike is so much nicer then metroidvania.
beethoven's piano sounds like a cat name tbh
Sh*t, you're right.... didn't think that one through.
If I ever get a cat I've already decided I'm going to name it "Mouse". I think Mouse is just a great name for a cat for some reason. But if I get a second cat - Beethoven's Piano. 100% no question.
Crossover comment moment.
@@BasementDweller_ OMG I didn't even check the name and notice it was Razbuten until now! I'm so stupid haha! Damn, I've been watching his videos for ages! If you're still seeing this Raz, thanks for stopping by and the top-tier comment, love your videos 🙏
I'm not expecting to see you here. Thanks for caring a small creator.
Fun fact: Castlevania Sotn creator, Igarashi, said sotn was not inspired by metroid but by zelda, he liked zelda so much that he tried to translate zelda gameplay in a sidescroller perspective.
The only thing they got from metroid is the minimap, other than that its just a platformer zelda with vampires instead of elves
Associating Obra Dinn with Metroidvania’s is a wild take, it’s very clearly and obviously a detective game and I’d argue it’s one of the most obvious examples of one.
It's obviously a Metroidbrainia-lite
Super Metroid has a room where the animals teach you how to wall kick which you've been able to do the whole time, so even Super Metroid is a Metroidbrainia.
That's true, I should have mentioned that room as it ties into this video. Super Metroid does have a room where it teaches you things you didn't know you could do, but I wouldn't say that's a core part of the Metroidvania formula, and that sort of cryptic stuff was also quite common in older games. In the original Zelda there's no way you can pass the lost woods unless you know which sequence of directions to walk. In Castlevania 2, there's no way you could know that you have to crouch in front of a cliff for 10 seconds to get warped to the next area. Those kind of knowledge-gates were pretty common in older games.
By the way, you should look into a game called tokitori 2. It is definitely a "Metroidbrainia"v being a 2D backtracking filled maze, having an intended progression route of teaching you new ways to use the same skills with barely anything in the way of actual upgrades.
guys i invented a new genre called "Metroidzeldia" its like metroid but from top-down perspective and it also rhymes with metroidvania arent i clever
The cleverest. I also must say that I love your profile pick of Beethoven’s Piano
Can't we just say "knowledge-based game"? It is the most accurate description like with puzzles, platformers or hack & slash. Tunic, obra dim, outer wilds, animal well - they all based on what knowledge does the player has and he does with it, so why not to call them like that?
Yeah I think that's the best term. Although I don't think obra din really is one, nor is animal well, although not sure about that last one I didn't play it much but it seems like a normal metroidvania.
@@k0lpA obra dim whole concept that you need to gather info on who is who, which is literally knowledge. Animal well is based on puzzles, secrets and insane things that you need to figure out, and the only limiting factor, mostly, is your brain and not your abilities or skills
Yeah honestly, I think that's sort of the best. It might make more sense to just call them mystery-adventure games, and you can add "knowledge based" to the top if you want to. That's probably what I'll do going forward! I also agree with this thread that it might not even make sense to force Obra Dinn, Animal Well, and Outer Wilds into the same category at all.
They're very different games, and frankly I think the only reason gamers are grouping them together at all is for the sole purpose of helping "Metroidbrainia" take over the land.
aint all games about you having some knowledge about them though
@@Josuh kinda but it's different. Games are based around player skills or narrative choices. With puzzles it's more of puzzle can be knowledge based but not every knowledge game is a puzzle, or vice versa. Genre is new so we will yet to grasp it's full meaning
>Yoshio Sakamoto labels Metroid as 'search action' game ages ago
>people ignored it
You reap what you sow
It's a cool name, sure, and I'd like to see it come back, but I can also see how people flocked to the term Metroidvania and similar terms. Instantly unique as a name, and despite the vague-ness of Search Action being arguably more descriptive, it doesn't pop out phonetically like Metroidvania does.
@@aaronokemaysim7310 'Metroidvania' will never make sense because Castlevania has two style of games (stage based and the search action)
Like, Haunted Castle Revisited released recently. Old Castlevania still has it place, especially when M2 keeps making these amazing remakes
I would probably call them puzzle based adventure games.
Puzzleventure?
The issue with that term is that it's not really specific to the genre the discussion is about. The point is to find a fitting name for a genre that uses knowledge as keys to open locks you go back to through backtracking. (Backtracking + Key/Lock is the only thing connecting them to Metroid, and by extension Metroidvanias).
I think the main difference compared to "just" adventure puzzle games is that those can be linear and the puzzles might not be (and usually aren't) hidden (like the locks are in games such as Outer Wilds)
The game that fits your definition of metroidbrainia the most is toki tori 2. It's a 2D metroidvania but you learn no abilities, all you can do is chirp and stomp (you're a little chicken), no jumping nothing else and you have to figure out how to use these abilities to interact with creatures and progress. It's a really good game, the little cute graphics make it look like a kid game but it gets pretty challenging and it's really fun to play.
It doesn't fit the genre as I see it though, because it's not a mystery game like outer wilds or tunic, you aren't driven by your curiosity and the game doesn't really teach you anything. In outer wilds for example you will read alien text that will give you the knowledge to progress further somewhere, a lot of the time you don't have to use your brain much, it's directly told to you. In toki tori 2 you have to figure out everything, although the level design sometimes force you to figure it out before you can continue. In outer wilds and tunic you aren't supposed to be able to figure out things without having found the knowledge even if it's allowed, usually the answer is so far fetched you wouldn't think about it before you know enough while in toki tori 2 everything is up to you to figure out so it's more brainy, more of a puzzle game and definitely a metroidvania. I don't like the term metroidbrainia to talk about outers wilds or tunic but I think it would fit well with toki tori 2 and animal well because they are metroidvanias, but have a puzzly side to them, instead of abilities acting like keys that lets you progress you have to figure out how to use these abilities in a specific way for it to work.
(Sorry third comment lol, this genre is my jam)
"All you can do is chirp and stomp (you're a little chicken)" is the cutest snippet of a comment I've seen on my channel haha. That's friggin adorable. I've heard of Toki Tori but haven't played it, but it looks pretty sick, like a fun little puzzle-metriod. If I can somehow get my hands on that I could see myself playing it on an airplane.
I've used the same argument as to why Outer Wilds isn't much of a puzzle game, and more of a space walking sim. There's very little you need to figure out, just put various bits of info together, mostly for lore reasons. I don't think it's a Metroidbrainia. Toki Tori 2 absolutely is, though.
@@mrsnulch get Toki Tori 2, it's a masterpiece of game design!
"Metroid-brainia has become an overused term."
I've literally never heard of it until now...
You've been one of the lucky ones 😅
When I hear that a game is "metroid-whatever" I'm understanding that it has a certain element of gameplay, not that I must associate it as being inspired by metroid... Therefore, I don't care if people use it extremely liberally, as long as the game has some core metroid elements.
That's fair! I'm just too snobby to accept this haha
That's the thing... Return of Obra dim or whatever it's called ISN'T a game using metroid elements, to my knowledge. I'm not even sure Tunic does, neither. Samef for Outer Wilds and Fez
(Though I have played none of those, so could be wrong.)
@@Chaki21 . Fez for me is platformer-puzzle like vvvvvvv, you have to win the game, or celeste
Wow, can’t believe such a lengthy response to my video nestled in here! I guess I’ve finally made it as a youtuber. Thanks for watching and good luck growing your channel as well!
I personally just like the name cause it’s funny and conveys the sense of the idea pretty quickly. I’m not really thinking about the literal game series metroid when I use the term, ya know? Just like I’m not thinking about jelly when I see a jellyfish.
Unfortunately these things aren’t always perfect or logical. It could just be that the catchiest name will stick. I remember always using “Skype” as a verb until everyone changed the verb to “Zoom” and I had to begrudgingly accept it. Maybe this will be like that.
Just a minor clarification - I don’t think Skype -> Zoom as a verb was because zoom is more catchy as a word itself; it’s moreso that the platform is the one everyone’s using nowadays, so they use that word to convey that info. After all, they are both names of different communication media. Why should people say Skype if they’re not using Skype? It *is* logical that Zoom replaced Skype as the verb of choice.
You can argue that Zoom replacing Skype as a platform was not based on logic but trendiness. I have no strong opinion on that; that said, even before Zoom became a thing in 2020, my impression was that Skype was dated like MySpace was dated (I’ve not used either)
@@cameronschyuder9034Gotcha. I never really used Zoom before corona so I wasn’t aware. But before that I would still use the term “skype” even if it was FaceTime or messenger or whatever, as a generic shorthand for “video call”.
Maybe a better example would be “Google It” even if someone uses DuckDuckGo or something.
HOLY SMOKES, it's Tin Sensei himself!! I didn't expect you to see my video at all, let alone day 1. Your Metroidbrainia video is amazing and has over 100k views, so I'd say you're the real deal 😎 I'll be watching the rest.
I hear you 100%, it is a fun term. I over-analyze stuff, that's just sort of my thing haha. At the end of the day it's all in good fun and I don't truly have a problem with anyone calling them "Metroidbrainias" if they want to, and I still agree with everything you said in your video about the games themselves. I just feel like there's got to be a better word out there... somewhere...
You're right though that it will most likely stick due to how catchy and recognizable it is, and logic-snobs like myself will have to suck it up!
Thanks for stopping by and best of luck growing your channel as well! And if I may ask - what mic do you use?! No worries if that's confidential, but you might have the crispiest audio quality I've seen on the 'Tube.
@@mrsnulch Thanks man. It’s just an e385. Got it for about 8,000 yen. I’d say there’s diminishing returns on the mic itself and it’s better to focus on stuff like EQ and compression and what not. I happen to have a bit of background in live sound for shows and speeches, and I learned a lot watching those grizzled vets work about frequency ranges, less is more, yada yada.
Anyway, you don’t need to spend more than 100 bucks on the mic itself IMO. Like, SM58 is the industry standard for vocals. I’ll probably make a patreon vid at some point about my specific settings.
@@tin_senseithanks dude! Yeah I totally had a feeling you had some background in sound. I guess you can say you had the “required knowledge” to beat that part of the game we call life haha
I used to play in a band so I still have my AT4040 which I run through Ableton to do my VO’s. To be honest, I’m just so dumb I never considered EQing or compressing my voice 😂 I just use the raw recording!!! I’m going to look into this for my next vid. I can probably seriously improve my sound. Much appreciated!
You'd think we'd go back to just calling them adventure games. I mean, it describes all of them. Sure it's general but we're already generalizing in the first place. If a game really needs it we could add extra terms. Action adventure. Point and click. Cinematic platformers. We already have the words to use, people just want everything to relate directly to something popular to get people to try it. Which is understandable of course, but it really is limiting how we discuss these things.
I actually agree with you there. While I say in the video that I think the genre needs a new name, it might well be best to just leave it alone lol. I remember when my friend first told me about Outer Wilds he told me it was basically a cool sci-fi mystery adventure game, which is really all I needed to know. In fact, if he had told me it would be a "knowledge based game", that might have taken away from the experience since I went in blind.
So yeah, not sub-categorizing it at all may be the best option. But since "Metroidbrainia" is already halfway done consuming the world, we have no choice but to fight fire with fire! We need to pick a better name before it's too late!
I am actually incredibly glad the generic label of "action adventure" is dying off. Nice to have some specificity in how we group games today, even if it's subject to popularity biases.
If we're just adding terms to "adventure game", I propose "metroid/castlevania-like adventure game". We could even shorten it to "metroid-vania-like" or something
@CheesecakeMilitia it's an umbrella genre, like "action", "strategy" or "puzzle". You can add more specific terms, but as an umbrella It serves its function just fine. Said specific terms have alraady existed. An action adventure 2d platformer, a zelda like, etc.
Its an action game with the structure, exploration/puzzle/discovery elements similar to an adventure game. A pure adventure game player would not be interested in them because they are fundamentally built like action games first.
A pure action game player might feel like aspects are undermining the moment to moment action. Action adventure works. Still, they are fundamentally an action game subgenre.
It's also a structural genre, you could apply it to other genres like a modifier, like roguelike or battle royale.
I really don't think it should be less prominent, it's useful, and we already have terms we can use to specify more.
When people play a game like outer wilds or return of the obra dinn, they want to play a game that scratches a similar itch to it. They don't want to just play an adventure game. That's why the term exists.
In Japan they are called search-action and I think it fits well with the genre of video games and what should be done in them, it doesn't matter if you have already played it, the search part is always there
I've never been satisfied with that term. Sounds like collectathon games. You're constantly searching for collectables in Banjo Kazooi
The 'utility gated' part seems more important than the action part. Collectathon 3d platformers don't rely on that mechanic.
nah, is not Japan that calls them Search-Action. It's Nintendo because they don't own Castlevania so they can't go "this new Metroid game is like Metroid meets Castlevania: Symphony of the Night"
granted, out of all the Nintendo-terms, I think we should replace Free-to-Play with Free-to-Start
I like to call them "Lateral Thinking Puzzle Games". Doesn't really fit, but it's the best I could do. A really good one that just cane out is "Lorelei and the Laser Eyes". More people should check it out
Knowledge locks are a normal part of Metroidvania. I generally agree tho, outerwilds doesnt actually need a different genre.
The common factor between the games we talked about is that theyre driven by a sense of discovery. So i think we call them disco
Yeah, I've seen a few people mention this - I just don't personally consider "knowledge locks" to be at all the same as getting a new weapon in Metroid, I don't really like the parallel too much. Either way, "disco games" would be rad as hell.
@@mrsnulch what about brandisco, brandy for friends
0:51 that clip is so loud it makes me scared to turn my volume back up
Game Theory: Snulch is short for Snuggle Belch
Elementary, my dear MatPat
Shit! You figured out my secret name!
Gamers not labeling a series of barely connected games under a braindead label challenge: Impossible
Metroidbrainia is an evil word trying to infect our brains
In Metroid, one of the main villains is Mother Brain...
_Motherbrain is BRAINWASHING US FROM THE FUTURE_
Metroidbrainia = Motherbrain. Just in a different form. I'm glad this news is spreading.
OLD SNULCH IS HERE TO CRASH THE PARTY
Every day bro. Every day.
Symphony of the night is actually inspired by Zelda 2, it was said in an interview by Igarashi, the guy that did all the castlrvania Metroidvanias era. Also Iconaclast falls in the classification of metroidbrania. The genre is actually a combo of metroid and Zelda but not breath of the wild era.
I liked this video, even though I hadn't heard the "Metroidbrainia" term used yet. I think you did a great job breaking down the genre of Metroidvanias and explaining why they are a necessary component of this new subgenre.
I think there's something to be said that there are games outside of pure puzzle games that are a bit more cerebral or require a lot of literary skills to play (such as a western RPG), that players recognize as something different and challenging, so they default to using familiar terms. I appreciate this video's emphasis of needing to use language correctly, that we can't go around using terms improperly; that's how "Metroidvania" got hacked to death.
Good vid :)
Yeah I'm definitely a bit snobby without the language, I like things to "fit" logically! But yeah, I can see why people might use this term just as sort of a broad word to help them keep track of a certain type of games, without caring about the morphology. I guess that's not the WORST thing a person can do haha
MetroidBRAINia? La-Mulana cares not how deep a puzzle can get. Every puzzle is a clue to another puzzle, and a playthrough can last from 10 hours to 300 depending on how many notes you take. Even after 12 years and dozens of tries I still haven't reached the end of the game, and it's still my favorite game ever!!!
Here’s what’s really fucked up. I was looking through game recs on the metroidbrainia sub, and saw some people go “what about La Mulana?” and the general response was that “La Mulana doesn’t qualify because it has actual metroidvania gameplay”. Imo, Outer Wilds, La Mulana, and Void Stranger are the big 3 games for “puzzle game with manually assembling plot/lore at the core of the game design”
When I use the word Metroidvania, I no longer do it to describe a game inspired by Metroid, but because there is no other/better word to describe a game that is neither open world nor linear. A game that neither lets you walk down a virtual corridor nor gives you direct access to the entire world and everything you have to do in it, but rather an open world that you have to work out for yourself like a puzzlebox.
I understand that many of these games are not inspired by Metroid, but they all share this quality that I love in games and I need a word to describe what I mean when I say what kind of game I like.
Yes, Tunic may be inspired by Zelda and not Metroid. But both Tunic and more traditional Zelda games and even the first generations of Pokemon followed this rough formula that I now refer to as a Metroidvania for lack of alternative terms. Ability-based progression and a gradually expanding, ultimately open game world. No matter the setting and no matter if 2D or 3D. That's the kind of game I want more of.
thank you for saying it at 4:43. I kept saying it on my streams and videos that Metroidvania for many games today is 100% inaccurate as 90% of them lack rpg mechanics and equipment with stats, etc. They are all “metroid-likes” where you can’t GRIND until you get stronger and are more like Zelda in which upgrades are not defined by a number that says how strong you are and the progression through the game is 100% like metroid.
I'm sure Metroidvania tag stuck because it's catchy sounding and early on made it sound like you were in the know. As far as the term Metroidvania is concerned though, when I 1st started hearing it the only people I used to hear say it a lot were people who disliked Nintendo. It's most likely these people liked a genre, but didn't want to give Nintendo their due. So adding vania for SotN was a way to imply Castlvania was the real influence. Particularly Sony fans, because SotN was on the PS1. Nevermind facts like: Casltevania games already had exploration elements before SotN (SotN is a sequel to Rondo Of Blood), the Castlevania series predates the PS, that the better version of SotN was on the Saturn, SotN is inspired by Metroid, or more importantly SotN has exploration elements but Metroid is not only fully exploration, but the 1st quintessential exploration game (I'm sure this can be cherry-picked, by mentioning obscure games with hints of exploration elements). It's not like these games came out close to the same time. There's a decade plus gap. The vania is as completely unnecessary as the in in inflammable . It's like if people started calling games roguegungeons instead of rogue-like, because they're more familiar with Enter the Gungeon, than Rogue.
Unless a game mechanic defines a genre, I don't think adding it to a genre it's not usually associated with creates a new genre. If I had an exploration game, where the main character had wings and could temporarily fly, along with hovering, gliding, and diving, should I start acting like I invented a new genre... "MetroidRaiser" Metroid plus ActRaiser. Damn! I'm a genius! It's even more of a stretch in this case, because SotN didn't introduce melee-based action platformers, or action-platformers with RPG stats.
I think the term Metroidbrania is sorta like how we still use the word Podcast. I don't think anyone really still records a podcast specifically for the iPod. The emphasis is on the broadcast element, but the "pod" stays in because it's not a live broadcast.
Similarly, the Metroid has lost meaning over time. I think Metroidbrania is shorthand for "a game with a focus on exploration, only like a Metroid game on the basis of having 'doors' and 'keys', typically requiring more exploration to find those upgrades which unlock the doors, but instead of being a new power up, it's more information, or a sudden 'aha' moment."
So, yeah, it's not an accurate term. They have less to do with Metroid overall and don't need to be tied to that legacy.
But I think it's actually more of a complement to be tied to that legacy anyway. Metroidbrania as a term, to me, says "it gives the same feeling as Metroid, but you need to be prepared to have your mind blown. This game has the quality of a triple-a game and will challenge your mental faculties in a way that Metroidvania games don't try."
Except podcast sounds good and feels like an appropriate word for the concept.
Metroidbrainia is a convoluted mess, and feels bad to say. 'Knowledge-gated' is cleaner AND makes more sense.
"Know-go" or "know-to-go" games: This is a short, catchy, and rhyming title that susinctly describes the core aspect, namely, progress is gated by lack of knowledge, or progress is possible through knowledge alone.
When introducing the concept and short phrase to others, a longer descriptive explanation could be: "when you know, you can go".
I think Fezlike is probably the nicest one to say
I've always called them Fezlikes
That’s just a metroidvania, we don’t need a new genre for every single minor change
Are you referring to Animal Well? If so then yeah, it's a Metroidvania that we can call Metroidbrainia for fun if we want to. The other games I describe aren't even Metroidvanias.
Y'all know we had to go snulch mode
It seems that people want to call games where progression is locked behind knowledge rather then just abilities Metroidbrainias
Puzzle mystery. Enigma. The entire game is a puzzle and a mystery, with hidden secrets. There are nested puzzles or hidden puzzles, riddles wrapped in mysteries wrapped in enigmas. And the thing with puzzles is that they are inherently knowledge checkpoints.
Enigmania. Puzzlenigma. Secretfest. I like Revelation: maybe Revelatory.
In my mind, metroidvanias (or metroid-likes, you‘ve convinced me that’s a more fitting name) do not really require to be 2d sidescrolling platformers or have to share an aesthetic or setting. The relevant part of what metroid added to 2d sidescrolling platformers is the ability-gated world-progression combined with nonlinearity leading to backtracking. Therefore, to me, a game having these elements at its core makes it a metroid-like/metroidvania.
24:57 Brainsplorative genre. You heard it here.
I think Knowledge Based Games is simple and fits them all
Or knowledge-gated. Trivia games are knowledge based. The 'gated' concept in Tunic and Outer Wilds forces you to backtrack, explore, and remember places to return to, in large interconnected worlds. That's what separates these from standard puzzle games.
Very good video, thank you for this.
I think a lot of people tend to group them together because these games make them feel the same way, and a surface analysis shows that what ties these games together is a strong focus on knowledge, no matter where the designers take their inspirations and what vision they are going for in the first place. As I've said in the comments of the other video, I think that analysis puts too much focus on mechanics, and not enough focus on how these mechanics affect the player's experience.
Now, while I agree that these games have similarities, I'm not sure that warrants putting them all in a big box that is a genre. Sure, I love games that rely on knowledge, but that's mostly because I love puzzle games and these games are just the new generation of this big family. What I think about when playing these games is not the fact that they're knowledge-based:
The Witness is a puzzle game with non-linear progression, self-explanatory design and a focus on discovering unique ways to hide information.
Animal Well is a world full of secrets, its developer must love secrets very very much, I put it in the same category as FEZ and, to a lesser extent, TUNIC (Because half of it is Zelda/Souls). These games also have plenty of "secrets for no one" or mysteries intended for a community to solve. Secrets for their own sake, I feel.
Obra Dinn is, as you've said, a detective game, though what sets it apart, to me, is that every element of it is grounded in reality and as such anything can be a clue when put in relation with other information. I think what people like about it and why they link it with the other games is the fact that the puzzle elements are not made explicit and require your critical assessment of literally everything you see as a potential source of information. This feels more "knowledge-based" than other detective games in which the information that is useful to you and the deductions you need to make are more clearly highlighted.
As for Outer Wilds, the game that started this whole madness. It is, by the words if its creators, a curiosity-based exploration game. It makes you WANT to do something, requires YOU to decide to do it, and rewards you abundantly for doing that, enabling this behavior by making you want to do even more things afterwards. Knowledge gates are only a small element of that as their purpose is to remove tangible rewards from the game, requiring the player to be invested in the world to even want to do anything. It is also, incidentally, the best game of all time, so uh, that kinda makes it stand out from other games (sorry for the less serious comment here lol).
Outer Wilds spawned a new "genre" because it was really fucking good and knowledge gates are the most obvious unique element of its design. People felt a unique thing with it, and seeking this new feeling, latched onto this design element to find new games to play, and now we have metroidbrainias. But I would argue there is currently no "wildslike" game, not to my knowledge anyway. All those other games are really really great, some of my absolute favorites in fact. But I do not know a single other game that puts such a focus on curiosity, exploration, seeking out new information for the sake of it, structuring the game around this behavior, etc.
Surprised the video or the big chunk of comments I scrolled through didn't mention La-Mulana 1 & 2 as metroidbrainias
I've seen it come up quite a few times in the comments! And sadly I've never played of it - but now I must.
Most people usually say games with knowledge based progression.
Yeah, I think that's the way to go.
I'm all about updating and changing the lexicon to reflect what it should actually mean. Great video.
Amazing video! I will say one part I did disagree with was your comment on Metroid being “open world” to connect it with Fortnite and that the game is about “progression”. I feel like a better term is “Lock and Key”, as most Metroid games aren’t open world, they’re Linear and their non linear parts still end up being linear along the way. The genre is more about being blocked off from somewhere, and then needing something to get past that obstacle. I think a lack of knowledge also fits into the “key” description.
Also yeah no Prime is a metroidvania, so they can be 3D
I see where you're coming from with the lock and key thing, but I still consider it to be a forced-parallel to make the knowledge in Outer Wilds feel like upgrades in Metroid. For example, in the original Legend of Zelda, you can't get through the lost woods unless you know which sequence of directions to take. Once you find that out, that's the key to progress. Is that the same as getting an upgrade in Metroid? No, it's a totally different thing. (In my opinion of course).
As for considering Prime a Metroidvania, well technically, no it's not. Look at any list of Metroidvanias by any publication, you'll never find Prime on there. You won't find it referred to as such on Wikipedia or anything either. It's designed like a Metroidvania, naturally being a Metroid game itself, but it is not classified as a Metroidvania.
This video sums up the whole struggle of naming genres. We could call metroidvanias "search action" games but then there's games like Animal Well that I struggle to call an action game because there's no combat. Some japanese devs don't like the JRPG label, but then what do we call it instead? We could go with character RPG, but you tell someone you like character RPG's and they won't know what you're talking about. I agree that metroidbrainia needs a new name and that "knowledge based" games could be a decent replacement, but knowledge based also feels too broad of a description. Pretty much any game is easier when you gain new knowledge about it. I'm pretty sure Razbuten (who I saw in the comments of this video weirdly enough lol) made a whole video about how exhausting comparing games to other games is, but there's also no other way to accurately describe something in a quick and concise way. So point is: language is weird and describing things is hard lmao.
You really got near to the heart of the matter in the last minute or so of the video. Metroidbrainia sounds good and it sounds like another genre that already exists and is well liked. Thus, like it or not, the name stuck despite its inaccuracies.
With zero academic rigor, I have anecdotally felt like the definition of what we call "metroidvanias" today is a semi-open world where the shape of gameplay progression is exploring, coming across things that you can't pass and think, "Oh I don't have the thing that opens/unlocks/defeats that yet, I gotta go somewhere else and then come back here later." Then you go get the powerup and backtrack, etc.
idk why but I've never associated the genre specifically with combat, so when I heard metroidbrainia for the first time (for outer wilds) it really felt right to me. I think the distinction between 2D and 3D is probably fair, but then I'd just be tempted to call things "2D metroidvanias" and "3D metroidvanias".
Oh and also, I think the reason outer wilds maybe helped coin the term is because to most people that played it completely blind (myself included) when reaching a perceived dead end would think "Oh I'll get a stronger jetpack later" or "I bet there's a key somewhere" because we had been trained to expect upgrades by other exploration games with dead ends. I think that similarity and/or twist on metroidvanias really shows in that regard, and may not be as easy to see for people that played outer wilds after having heard about how the game works.
Watching this video, I wonder how weird I am for never considering combat to be a part of the definition.
But also yeah Obra Dinn being filed as a Metroidbrainia is cap to me, your honor.
Thanks for the awesome video!
Your comment made me think about something.
I think people see Outer Wilds as a "metroidbrainia" because of these knowledge gates. As you said, when I see a dead end in a metroid game, after trying out the basic "bomb every surface" I think "I don't have the right upgrade". But I did not think like this when I played Outer Wilds.
My foremost question when playing OW was "HOW do I get there?". It was absolutely not "I do not have the right knowledge for this" or "Which piece of knowledge will help me solve this". In fact, I think the game would not have been nearly as good if I was thinking like this. I would rather say "let me think: what is this thing? Why do I want to go there? What is there that could help me? Let me try out something. Am I even right in thinking that I need this? Where would I find what I need?".
In fact, many places in the game do not strictly require a clearly-defined "piece of knowledge" that's revealed at a particular location in the game, and rather require a general understanding of how the world of the game works and how its elements interact. To name a few: The Han**** Ci**, the To*** of Qu***** K********, the To*** of Qu***** Tr****, part of the St**** Wor*****, the So****** Ob*********, Es**** P** 3, and, of course, the A** T*** P******.
This sets the game's "knowledge gates" completely apart from "upgrade gates" as that property of vagueness and synthesis is unique to them.
Witness is a Myst clone with drab puzzles.
Yeah, I enjoyed it for what it was but calling it anything other than a Myst clone would be a stretch! Or an homage I guess.
Since you can beat the first Myst game right from the start in a few minutes if you know what to do then it is indeed a Metroidbr... I mean WILDSLIKE! :^)
Nooo. Noooooo. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
obviously they're all Mystlikes (books or passages being central (Outer Wilds)) and Mystlites (books or passages not being central (The Witness))
@@kennythegamer1 You probably meant: "Set on an island (The Witness)" and "Not set on an island (Outer Wilds)", right?
@@morpheuslunae4196 All we need is "Has 'meh' visuals (The Witness)" and "Has 'shitty' visuals (Return of the Obra Dinn)" to have Myst-Green likes and lites, Myst-Red likes and lites, and Myst-Blue likes and lites
the thing is, Metroid is already kinda based on Zelda's progression system.
...
actually, y'know how the first Legend of Zelda game is already kind of heavily knowledge-gated, since the final 3rd of the game (and pretty much all of 2nd Quest, tenfold) requires you to uncover the dungeon entrances, a thing you might not even be aware is possible. is _it_ a metroidbrainia?
That totally speaks to my point and I've mentioned this in a few threads. In the original LoZ there's no way you can get through the lost woods unless you know the directions you have to walk. That kind of knowledge-gated game design is simply a different thing to me than finding an upgrade in Metroid, so I can't get behind the parallel. People say that there's a lock and the knowledge is the "key" just like Metroid, but I still disagree. These are different things.
So no, LoZ is NOT a Metroidbrainia at ALL - but believe me, the word will spread, and soon it will be. We can't stop it.
@@mrsnulch I still think it's a bit odd to draw a line between top-down/3D equipment-based action adventure games ("Zelda clones") and side-scrolling equipment-based action adventure games ("metroidvanias").
honestly, the fact that we try to create individual genre titles for things that are even _that_ specific causes more problems than it solves. if instead we had better words to describe individual core game mechanics/ideas everything would be a lot easier.
I always thought it was dumb that bullet-heaven genre became "vampire survivors like" as if genre didnt already exist.
I mean its a great game, but it isn't a new genre
Yeah I'm with you there! It's this need to connect something to an established game for no reason.
@@mrsnulch thank god this trend is new-ish. I would hate if open-world RPG was called Skyrim-like just because its the most popular one
You'd be calling them "Ultima-likes" long before Skyrim had a chance. And people would be arguing if 3d games should count...
Holey Moley, I’m feeling absolutely SNULCHED after this one
I was about to say "so outer wilds is just a brainia" but then I realized that the "ia" comes from castlevania. so really, outer wilds is just a brain
Hahah technically yeah, it’s just brain. Other two parts don’t apply.
My understanding of a metroidvania is that it's a game with many 'locks' and 'keys' in a (at least somewhat) open world of sorts. The 'keys' are abilities and items that you gather around the map while the 'locks' are where you would use said items and abilities to either progress the story or otherwise unlock more of the map to explore and gather more items and abilities. Hollow Knight comes to mind here.
And then metroidbrainia would be a game wherein rather than items or abilities, the 'keys' are merely information you don't yet realize you already have access to, and in playing through the game you slowly come to learn what it is you must do in order to progress or otherwise overcome a 'lock'. Progress and exploration is gated less by what items or abilities you have, and more what you know, and if you begin the game from the very beginning after completing it you can likely complete a vast majority or large chunks of the game. Outer Wilds comes to mind here.
I agree that metroidbrainia might not be the best name for such games, but if I use this definition I can definitely see how people have come to call it that, haha. Doesn't help either when it's a combo of sorts, utilizing information, items, and abilities. Tunic comes to mind here.
I always felt like this is the kind of thing where trying to boil down an entire game into a single label is going to cause a lot of problems. There are too many components and labels in these types of games, so trying to put them all under one single term is going to dilute the term so much that its nearly pointless. It doesn't do much good to tell me that Fez is a MetroidBrainIa, what gives me info is saying that its a 2D platformer with puzzles and collecting (and whatever other labels you want to add in)
I don't mind the idea of making a new genre called metroidbrainia, I just don't think we should try to describe games as only being in that category.
My suggestion for such a label to add to the list of labels for a game would be something like: Knowledge-Lock or Knowledge-Gate. The idea being that the label focuses on your level of knowledge being the thing that progresses your state in the game. So a game like Animal Well would be a:
2D, platformer, open world, Knowledge-Gate game. Or whatever labels you want to use for its mechanics.
Tbh rain world is a hardcore platformer, ecosystem simulation game with knowledge based system(as karma gates, mark of communication etc.) and tunic is zelda like, soul game combats with pez X the witness puzzles based on knowledge based system(the holy cross, trunic etc.). They both have small bits of metroidvania systems as traversing rooms again and again, finding ways to enter the new zone and more. But they are not in your zone of metroidbrainia, since tunic is not a 2d sidescroller, and rain world does not give you new technics to traverse rooms. Its really hard to categorize these 'games based on knowledge', since the only same thing they got is that knowledge is power. I might even call these games "The More You Know Games" from now on lol
the main undercurrent of all these games, and the reason they get tied to metriod, are logic gates. people have compared the logic gates in these games to the "upgrade gates" in metroidvanias, which is typically the main part of being a metroidvania. granted, the comparison to a logic gate and an "Upgrade gate" is flimsy. these are logic, or knowledge gate games, with an element of backtracking/ retreading your steps typically tied in. however once you have the knowledge you can get through the gates, hence the incredible lack of replayability. so i would dub these "Knowledge key" games, or something similar.
basically the only difference with this and a normal mystery game is that you have to find the answer then go back to the place that needs the solution. its a mystery with more steps, which makes it more dynamic.
But doesn't every game have Knowledge Gates? Lethal Company for example, the bracken enemy is a knowledge gate. If you know to not look at it for too long, you'll live. That requires knowledge. Is Earthbound a Knowledge Key Game too? One half of that game is knowing where to go and what to do, the other half is knowing how to defeat the enemies in battle. You can't turn a game mechanic that is used in every game whether you realize it or not into a genre, because then every game that has a part that requires you to have knowledge of what to do goes under that genre.
Just be glad that the discussion is nowhere near as bad as people complaining about character action being a genre, lol
The defining aspects of metroidvanias are just 1) non-linear exploration, and 2) upgrade-gated progression. It's so named because these are what Metroid and Castlevania games have in common, not because it's a mash-up of elements from the two series. To get that wrong means you don't fully understand the genre.
Outer Wilds fits both criteria, except the upgrades are pieces of knowledge. Fortnite OTOH is not even close. Every match is in an arena you already have full knowledge of, and you're not gated from any of it. Better gear in Fortnite just makes you stronger in the multiplayer match, and doesn't unlock new portions of the game for you.
No need for the attack-on-person argument. I've played every Metroidvania I could get my hands on, all the metroid games, and all the castlevania games, so yeah I understand the genre.
Non-linear exploration and upgrade-gated progression were both in Super Metroid, so my point stands that Metroidvanias are just any game with those elements from Super Metroid. Of course that's what Metroid and Castlevania have in common. It's also what Metroid and Hollow Knight or Axiom Verge have in common, because it was already there in Metroid. It's a known fact that Metroidvanias are intrinsically more linked to Metroid than Castlevania - you can read the Kotaku article in the description for more info.
SOTN introduced RPG mechanics like leveling up and skill points, and a variety of different weapons / spells / summons, and in my opinion, that's where the real mash-up comes from.
I see what you are saying with Outer Wilds but disagree for the reasons stated in the video, and in this case, because it violates your second point. I don't consider knowledge the be the same as upgrades at all, so it's not upgrade-gated progression.
@@mrsnulch There is no mash-up. If you understand that metroidvania refers to a particular subset of features that both SM and SotN have in common, then why do you keep insisting that the -vania part is irrelevant just because SotN's RPG elements aren't among the defining features of metroidvanias?
Without the -vania part, a term like "metroid-like" would be too vague, and can include any number of metroid's other features. Sci-fi platformer? Blaster you can charge? Combat upgrades? Rooms separated by mechanical doors? Lots of minor enemies punctuated by the occasional boss fight? That's literally Megaman, which traditionally do not contain any of the core metroidvania elements but would arguably be a metroid-like
OTOH, anybody that has played both SM and SotN would immediately understand which exact features you're talking about when you use "metroidvania", even if they've never heard the term before
Actually Most Metroidvanias railroad you down a path, if anything it's referred to as guided non linearity. Even then some games are the exception like Hollow Knight.
All metroid games are made on a interconnected map so anything in an open sandbox isn't remotely related to the genre. All outer wilds is, is a non linear puzzle game. You don't gain powers and you don't navigate a focused map.
@@logiclunacy606 "Guided non-linearity" is still non-linear. It's literally in the name. Metroidvanias can't be completely free-access anyway due to the lock-and-key nature of the upgrades and map. You will have to find some things before other things, though there might be multiple paths available.
As for the map, it sort of depends on how much of a structure-purist you are. Sure, it's not a 2D side-scrolling map, but Outer Wild's solar system is objectively an "interconnected map", with space as the corridors, and planets as the different areas of the castle. The only difference is the structure and method of traversal.
Regardless of whether meta knowledge counts as "upgrades" in the traditional sense, knowledge in OW definitely acts as keys. You obtain said keys by exploring the interconnected map, and those keys unlock other parts of the map, which lets you obtain other keys. Exactly like in other metroidvanias.
@@edamael Guided non linearity is just a term.... To be honest its actually refers to linearity disguised as non linearity. If you are being forced down a set route then it's linear. The fact is the majority of Metroidvanias are like this.
There are several examples of 3d vania like maps, metroid prime is an example of a metroidvania that deals with multiple planets but is also segmented by it's corridor or arena level design that is closed off from freedom.
In the Outer wilds you have full freedom
to go wherever which makes it a sandbox and not a controlled map. It also has full 3d rotation on all planets meaning that the planets you go on also have full freedom.... Making it more of an open world game.
A crucial component to a metroidvania is a powers used to overcome locks but with full freedom there is none of that gameplay loop. In a puzzle game you need to progress each puzzle to get further into the game thus a gameplay loop is there, doesn't have to be in an order because puzzle games do not have that guard post that says this game can't be open or closed because puzzle games only have a gameplay loop of solving puzzles and further progression.
The only thing that stops dark souls from being a metroidvania is you don't gain any sort of ability, just items or interactions that enable you to go further.
This video is also right that are Metroidvanias are tied in by super metroid mostly and castlevania only got coined on to the term due to popularity. What the video got wrong was symphony was inspired by Zelda and not metroid.... Symphony actually only has a small amount powers that barely hang it on to the metroidvania genre, that being the high jump, the bat form and mist power. Though Igarashi coined a different genre to refer to RPG Metroidvanias known as IGAvanias which include the gameplay loop of a metroidvania as well possible key items and stat based mechanics.
Knowledge based games
Great video, and I couldnt agree more.
Some years ago I read this "game genere anallisis" that talked about how videogames is the only narrative medium that categorizes its generes into tecniques and not into narrative themes or artistic movements. How cinema's generes are based on what is the film about or its setting, like horror, drama or western, and its style or artistic movements, like the german impresionism, Hollywoods golden age or dogma cinema. The same can be seen in dancing, music, painting etc. No one would called the Mona Lisa "an sfumato piece" dispite being the most iconic painting with that technique, we would call it a reinassance portrait, artistic movement + theme. We dont call it "distorted guitar" wer call it Rock music. And therefore is weird that we call games "first person shooter" or "plataformers" when within the same genere we can have horror themes or andventure themes. And it often makes it very difficul for players to find games that are similar to what they like. If you liked Obra Dinn your first impulse won't be to play Animal Well cause they are mechanically oposite.
I think its a great debate, and one that we should bring up more often :)
11:47 - Man woke up that day and chose violence.
Something like KBA - Knowledge-Based Adventure.
I added the adventure because Outer Wilds should probably be called a First Person KBA at most, with KBA being the most important part, not the subgenre.
I feel like Animal Well is indeed the only one with a proper description mentioned.
Tunic could be an Action KBA or however people describe Zelda (Action Adventure?).
In any case, I'm just happy that we got to see the consolidation of this genre with games such as Outer Wilds that creates such unique experiences at this moment in time.
OMG AT 5:45, SOMEONE FINALLY MENTIONED CUCKOO CASTLE!!! That game is underrated.
As a mod of the “metroidbrainia” subreddit, I can say that many (most?) of us over there share the ambivalence (at best) about the term “Metroidbrainia”, while still appreciating the fact that this nascent genre (if it is indeed a genre) is bringing people together who appreciate similar games that push beyond puzzling to something… more, and certainly something underdefined.
The challenge of generating a new genre is that it’s always going to be imperfect, and retcon-ish. Yet does the term provide utility? Arguably, yes.
After playing Tunic, I asked for recommendations of similar games and got Death’s Door above all others. While a pleasant game, the primary similarity was the art style. I was actually looking for something mindful and transcendent, not just something that looks cute. The “metroidbrainia” recs have done a better job of pointing me and many toward games they’ll enjoy, even if the term is imprecise. I enjoyed Obra Dinn far more than Death’s Door, but I wouldn’t call it a Metroidvania derivative, any more than I would call death’s door one. Still, the term provides _some utility_ in the meantime. Hence, as a mod again, keeping games like Obra Dinn and The Witness as game flairs in the subreddit, even though I personally don’t think they should “qualify”.
All this discussion comes down to is what a “genre” actually is, and what work it does. You seem to define genres by “genealogy”, which is cool, but there are plenty of other ways. I don’t find any approach particularly satisfying yet, but that’s what it means to be in the early throes of these conversations.
As a final note, see my comment here, which tries to break down the reasons why this term is struggling, namely, it’s trying to encompass too much:
www.reddit.com/r/metroidbrainia/s/xueUC9JOba
Yeah I take the more analytics / genealogical approach personally, but I understand that for some, it is acceptable for it to be used more broadly. That just isn't my style.
Death's Door is a solid game and also 100% inspired by Zelda, it's basically a cool little Zelda clone. As for Obra and Witness, yeah of course keep them in the subreddit, they've already been established as such and even though I disagree with the placement, it's still worth having them there for the discussion!
I suggest we call the genre:
1. Puzzle-Ex (puzzle explorer)
2. Puzzle-Nav (puzzle navigation)
3. Well-Like (Animal Well - like)
I would like to point out that animal well was not the first in the genre
Outer Wilds came out first and is a more pure expression of the genre
@@jkjkrandom Actually as I mention in the video, The Witness and Obra Dinn actually both predate Outer Wilds by a couple years, so if we are going to group these games together at all, Outer Wilds isn't the first one. @FlatThumb Puzzle-Ex is fun haha! I wouldn't go with Well-Like since I consider Animal Well to actually be a Metroidbrainia and I don't think the other games are really similar to it.
@@mrsnulch I think I chose "Well-Like" because I was associating 2D platforming an integral part of the formula. Regardless, fun video! Subscribed!
No one will ever be happy with any label, they are inherently limiting. It removes the unique quality of a thing to just slap on a generic term like FPS or Metroidvania. It’s just shorthand. Once you’ve experienced a game of course it will have more nuance and originality than a genre label can provide. After playing Animal Well, to call it a metroidbrania is flippant. It’s just Animal Well now. But to someone who hasn’t played it, metroidbrania it s a serviceable label which creates a rough idea of the experience.
That being said, some people seem to get label happy…
When you find something new and fun, which is unique and genre defining, you start to look for that experience everywhere…
Adding this to my playlist of videos to come back to after I’ve played the outer wilds. 😅
At first I think I would be apprehensive to the idea 3D games cant be Metroidvania's, but then I gave it some time to stir and cook. I agree, because 2D level design is so far and away much different with its own issues separate from 3D games and 3D game's have their own issues to tackle. While certain overarching elements align, I think those 3D game's might have to use their own term as it ends up creating entirely different game feels as platforming is also changed along with it.
As for a new "Metroidvania" name replacement, NL-PAGE games doesn't quite roll off the tongue though, yet it's not so bad. At least there is 1 word that looks familiar; PAGE being platforming ability-gated exploration. ~~Non-linear PAGE games~~ kind of sounds alright, and we don't really need to "acronymize" Non-linear since it really is key in this genre. Its not like its that much harder to say than "Metroidvania". And the word "Page" can be seen as a signifier of a 2-dimensional piece of work, so its implied these are 2D games.
As for "Metroidbrainia", I think they miss out ENTIRELY what their core gameplay is and what draws players to them, which is information being hidden from you. They are Non-linear Information Gated Progression games, as not all of them involve platforming nor is it key. Tunic is ABSOLUTELY this. Its entirely gated by information down to its game's "Manual". Yet there is very little if any platforming at all in it. And honestly, Non-linear is a bit of a misnomer as its already implied, misleading, or not at all as important as the "information Gated" aspect. And I would like to state this is different from a puzzle game, as puzzles present them selves as challenges to overcome. Information Gated progress will NOT PRESENT ITESELF! Hell you can go through multiple playthroughs in some of these games and just not be aware of some of the solutions to problems you didn't know were problems yet. Non-linear IGP games is about as good of a description you get without hyper focusing on the wrong aspects of the genre while keeping it open to be used for many different games. Still not catchy though.
Anyways gotta get back to developing my Metroidvania game lmao. School starts again soon and I won't have 24 hour days free anymore.
"Knowledge-based-progression" mfers when they discover puzzle games !!!!1!!1!
Seriously though we can call these "Non-linear Puzzle Games", since that is the most descriptive and accurate genre title. Though they might have platforming or combat, they're puzzle games at heart, with puzzles that you move through in a purposefully non-linear fashion. Therefore: "Non-linear Puzzle Games."
Obra Din has nothing to do with metroidvanias or metroid"brainia" which isn't a term I like. There is no progression, it's a deduction game. The witness is an open world puzzle game, nothing to do with anything metroidvania.
A metroidvania is a game that is somewhat open and you progress by getting new abilities and then backtracking to areas where that ability let's you progress. A metroidbrania (which I prefer to call knowledge based games, or games with knowledge based progression) is the same but instead of finding abilities you find knowledge that you can then apply to progress in other areas.
Tunic and outer wilds are the only real knowledge based games in this video. For tunic it comes a bit later, at first it just seems like an action adventure game. I think another game that fits the genre is chants of senaar although it is pretty linear.
The term knowledge-based games has been you for years now since outer wilds came out, I don't know why we would need a new word for it.
Yeah, I agree with you across the board there! Basically same as what I'm getting at here
Knowledge-gated.
Trivia games are 'knowledge based'
I like to describe Outer Wilds as a space archeology game with a time loop mechanic.
I'd argue that you should leave out the time-loop part for others to discover for themselves. The devs kept it in the Steam store page though, I guess to pique interest
@@edamael yeah it’s hard to balance because my friends are all grown up and don’t have a lot of time to experiment on new games, so I have to give a strong hook to convince them to use their precious gaming time on a chance
It already has a name. It's called "Knowledge is Progress"
Not everything needs to have a one, singular chimera word.
I feel like there are lots of improperly or not even named genres. There’s a genre of games people call “speedrun games”, games like neon white, ghost runner, and kick b*stards. They’re really, REALLY fast-paced games where levels take literal seconds and if you’re good enough, the levels are impossible short. And it has no name! This genre was brought to me through a channel called Blargis, whose making a game like the ones i listed, and they’re really fun. I also saw a Circletoons HD video about games like these, and they really need a name.
Speedrun-game isn’t good enough. Don’t know what it would be called
QTGs? [like quick time events, but game]
Brainknowledge sounds like an adequate, if overly simple name
It's funny, before I heard this term, outer wilds gave me hardcore metroid prime vibes, especially about scanning and reading about an extinct alien race, and the space exploration and backtracking aspect. One of the reasons I kept playing through the game.
Oh yeah, it definitely is reminiscent of Prime and while I don't think that was their main goal, the inspiration may well have been there. That's why I'm a little less stubborn with the idea of calling Outer Wilds a Metroidbrainia - there's a good bit of Metroid in there. It's the overall attempt to group it in with Obra Dinn and the Witness and Tunic and Animal Well etc into the "Metroidbrainia" umbrella that I can't get behind.
I never realized that the vania part of metroidvania was for castlevania
Why not just call them non-linear puzzle adventure games?
Because that's a long phrase for a niche genre. Fans want a shorthand. And non-linear implies you can tackle challenges in any order, but these games usually guide you through a specific order of discoveries.
@@arckinenso7615 "non-linear" means that it isn't played linearly. If something isn't a straight line, it doesn't automatically make it a circle. And "non-linear" is to replace metroidvanias that aren't inspired by metroid. You don't need every single aspect of the game to fit into a single genre type. Genres are literally designed to be purposefully vague to give game devs the ability to think of how to use these aspects of the genre creatively. We don't need a single genre name for a game that is non-linear and a puzzle game and an adventure game, the whole point of there already being names for those genres is to allow other genre labels to explain other aspects of the gameplay rather than just shoving the game into a small box and making sure no part of it is sticking out of the lid.
Soulslike and roguelikes need a new name too
Two things:
1) Symphony of the Night was inspired by Zelda; not Metroid. This due to Zelda being significantly more popular and well-known. (The progression and navigation systems still ended up being more like Metroid, however. Probably just because it's a more intuitive way to do it with an action platformer core.)
2) Someone claiming to have coined the term "Metroidvania" basically used it to mean "a game similar to Super Metroid or post-Rondo Castlevania".
Third thing 💢:
3) A Metroidvania doesn't have to be a 2D side-scroller. It's an action adventure subgenre distinct from Zelda-likes primarily through their focus on platforming and their interconnected/zone-oriented world and progression design, in contrast to Zelda's overworld and dungeons.
Metroid Prime and UNSIGHTED are Metroidvanias.
No thoughts on Metroidbrania, though. Don't think I've played any of them yet, but my physical copy of Tunic is waiting for me.
@@JediMBif you're looking for a good metroidbriania Outer Wilds is one of the best
Symphony of the Night not inspired by Metroid? What?! Hahaha it was 100% inspired by Metroid dude 😅
@@mrsnulch Not according to Koji Igarashi.
@@mrsnulchyeah, in an interview, Koji Igarashi, the man behind the “Metroidvania” castlevania’s said his main inspiration for SotN was Zelda 1
Petition to rename the genre to ShlipShlop just because that'd be funny to say in public, like you're just talking about games with your co-workers and you go "oh hey, you guys play any good ShlipShlops lately? Yeah I'm a bit of a ShlipShlop nut, I've been catching up with a ton of the classic ones lately".
The final boss in OG Metroid was a... brain, sooo
The thing is that metroidvanias are item-gated non-linear games, while these are knowledge-gated non-linear games; both are under the non-linear umbrella (along with skill-gated and character-progression-gated), and while there is a lot of overlap they are different flavors and deserve different names. We don't call Breath of the Wild a metroidspiritorbia. I propose just going the fps route and just using an acronym: KGG for Knowledge Gated Game, IGG for Item Gated Game, etc or something similar.
One problem with defining genres as "like" other games (eg metroidvania, roguelike, souls-like, etc) is that there are several different types of genre; there's story genre, theming genre, gameplay genre, and the one this argument is centered around, progression genre. When you define a genre as "like" another game, at first that genre is composed of games that are like that game in most, if not all, of those genres. Over time, however, more and more games are made and each draws from different other games as well, until only a few core ideas of the original game are still considered important for the genre. A good example of this is roguelikes, where they were originally turn-based top-down dungeon crawlers with procedural generation, and ASCII art, but lost more and more of those traits and now, it just means permadeath and procedural generation, and there's also roguelites, which are the same but with a lesser degree of permadeath. Roguelike isn't an entirely inaccurate term, its just that most are only "like Rogue" in the genre of progression, but are not "like Rogue" in the genres of gameplay, art, theming, etc. Similarly, Animal Well is "like Metroid" in the genre of progression, but its gameplay genre is puzzle platformer rather than action platformer, its theming genre is a surreal world full of animals rather than sci-fi and aliens, etc., and you have The Witness, where the only similarity is the progression genres both being non-linear, but they aren't even the same type of non-linear progression so it doesn't make sense to call it a metroidvania.
Metroid got its progression system FROM Zelda, so you not seeing how a game that looks Zelda-like can also be Metroid-like is baffling. Also, I broadly agree with you, but once you play TUNIC you'll 1000% see how much like Animal Well it is in terms of being a (I hate the word, too) Metroidbrainia.
I would argue that perspective, art style, and gameplay/combat aren't indicative of a Metroid-like/Metroidvania. I think the term really only applies to a game's progression system of how the playable world opens up to you.
It's... peculiar that some sources claim Metroid was developed in response to Zelda's success, given that that would leave it with a development cycle of like 4 months.
That doesn't line up well with claims that Metroid's development started over from scratch partway through, and claims from other sources that the two action adventures were in development simultaneously.
That's a solid counter-argument. But even so, that still only leaves Tunic and I ultimately don' think it really makes sense to then try to group Obra Dinn and the Witness in with it in an attempt to make Metroidbrainia happen. I think these are all very different games with different roots, and it's the knowledge thing that ties them together, not the Metroid thing.
I'd also argue that since Zelda predates Metroid slightly, if a game is heavily inspired by Zelda it doesn't make sense to associate it with Metroid to me. But Zelda / Metroid do have similar progression with the upgrades and items so it does get a bit muddy haha
@@JediMB Yeah it's hard to say. Given that both games were developed by Nintendo, there may have been some overlap in development which allowed for similar ideas about progression, items, exploration etc to come up in both games. I think he's referring to Super Metroid specifically. It came out 3 years after Link to the Past, so it likely took some ideas from that game.
@@mrsnulch The idea that the original Metroid was developed as a response to Zelda's success is actually on Wikipedia, with The Metroid Retrospective (2007) as its source.
No idea what exactly the video says, though, since I can't get the archived version to play.
I don't know anything about Animal Well other than what was in this video, so I don't know how much knowledge actually helps you in terms of progression, but solving the main puzzle of translating the language in Tunic really wasn't all that helpful. I was expecting a lot of helpful information, and I mostly got a lore dump. It's very much a Zelda/Souls-like with a overarching puzzle, but the knowledge was really of very little help to me compared to something like Outer Wilds, where knowledge is everything.
Puzzle-box genre. Solve the puzzle box once, and the surprise is gone forever
The witness is excluded as just Puzzle genre because putting the pieces together can feel different each time you “assemble the pieces”/solve the puzzle
Animal well would be a Puzzle-box Metroidvania. You can imagine other games with that same genre combo, but also having combat 🤷♂️
Metroidveinia. Inserted a vein in there . Nice
The issue with classifying knowledge-based games is that the concept that ties it all together is very abstract. With other genres like first person shooters, bullet hells, fighting games, or racing games the name tells you exactly how the gameplay mechanics will be. With soulslikes, roguelikes or metroidvanias it tells you what structure the game will follow, along with some genre-specific conventions. These games have none of that in common, if we want to classify them we need something more akin to to the labels simulation game, adventure game or action game. Those labels tell you a game possesses one very specific trait, in such a way that the games carrying that label can have very distinctive gameplay elements and conventions while still conveying that they are part of one category that users search for.
Honestly, I think knowledge-based is the best thing we call games following this design philosophy because the progression being heavily dependent by knowledge of the mechanics instead of mechanical skill, abilities, or character stats, is the only thing they have in common.
Knowledge-gated.
Trivia games are knowledge based. The gated exploration, where knowledge is deeply integrated into how you explore, is the core of the genre. The revelations about what you can do in the world giving you new perspectives on previous areas and revealing routes you could have taken if you knew..
Imo soulslike is a horrible term that gets abused and has been used to describe any game with a dodgeroll
3:30 I mean you probably have missed since it has been lost to time, but metroidvania was literally only about castlevania SoTN. Like it's what castlevania fans called it sometimes as pejorayive as it was not classic castlevania, so you are way righter on the term than you think
t. an old fart
Oh I played Symphony of the Night back in '07 and never looked back. My older cousin showed me the ways. That game slaps and always will.
there's term secondary to metroidvania that is used, mostly in japanese circles, called search-action, describing the two mains actions the player often does. through that perspective, "metroidbranias" are just, search-puzzles, because that's the 2 "modes" that players engage in.
I didn't know they called that Metroidbrainia, I've heard Knowledge-vania a lot
in my opinion, the key point of a metroidvania, as the term is currently used, is that progression is chiefly governed by item-based recontextualization of prior content. and then it follows that a metroidbrainia--epitomized by outer wilds--is that progression is chiefly governed by knowledge-based recontextualization of prior content. it is a misnomer when used in this sense; there is no "metroid" or "vania" as much as there is "metroidvania" as that term has evolved its usage beyond its source games. i make no claim that this is the most efficient or helpful way to refer to things.
anyways. here are some of my takes based on these interpretations of the words as-used:
- outer wilds is THE metroidbrainia (and yet, it is not a metroidvania). to the point that if i had to choose a game to rename the genre around, it'd be outer wilds. of course, naming genres based on games in the first place is misguided.
- animal well is not a metroidbrainia. it's just a puzzle metroidvania. (if there's much more content in the postgame than i've found, feel free to disregard this)
- the messenger is barely a metroidvania, if at all.
- tunic is an action adventure with a metroidbrainia (yet non-metroidvania) sidequest.
we should start calling games that take inspiration from breath of the wild “Wildrings”
Your "mistake" (quotes because I think its more of an opinion than a mistake) is insisting that it has to be a subgenre of Metroidvania because of the Metroid part, but I disagree, as @mmo4754 said the metroid in the name only means that has a certain element of gameplay simmilar to metroid (in this case non-linear and gated exploration), not that its inspired by metroid. So basiclly both genres has somehting to do with metroid, but the both are something more specific than this in a way that they cant be a subgenre of each other, as you said metroidvanias are "non-linear platforms with ability-gated exploration" while metroidbranias are "non-linear games with knowledge-gated exploration". I just found a bit ironic when you dont want to call this games Metroidbrania because of purism of the Metroid origin, but wanna call Animal Well when the term Metroidbrania was first use to describe The Witness (and quickly FEZ and Outer Wilds too)
With that said, I think you have a point when saying that it is a diservice to the inovation brillance of Outer Wilds and The Witness (never played Return of the Obra Dinn, and by your video looks like even my definition of metroidbrania doesnt fit, so thats why I am not including in this comment). In the end no-one will ever 100% agree in what defines a genre and which games are in it, since its a spectrum and some games are on the edge and/or combine genres. Overall I think the video was great and honestly got me thinking, I am still not sure If I should ditch the metroidbrania name for this genre or not.
What this whole discussion got me thinking its about and way older and estiblish genre that got a way bigger, but simmilar, name problem: RPG, as far as I am aware the name came from because the first ones in the gerne were inspire but D&D, but what defines the genre has nothing to do with what defines Table-top RPGs or with Role-Playing, curious to see your opinion on the name of this genre too.
Steam users will see any vague exploration game and tag it Metroidvania. I love Dead Cells but it kills me to see that game being tagged Metroidvania by people that don't know what the term means. When you explain that it requires to have backtracking their brain brings up a 404 message.
What, people are calling Dead Cells a Metroidvania?! Yeah, I love that game to death and no way. It's a roguelike. I think terms like this expand.
In fact, I wouldn't even call Cave Story a Metroidvania. It's one of my favourite indie games ever and it's often called the original "indie Metroidvania", but it has a much more linear design.
I would definitely not call it a metroidvania but early-game it definitely has metroidvania elements with the rune abilities having to be unlocked to get to previously inaccessible locations, like the climbing rune or the teleportation rune. But at its heart the game is still much more a rogue lite than a metroidvania, especially since the runes are unlocked quite quickly and from then on there are no metroidvania elements anymore.
How about gnosis-games? Gnosis is a Greek word for knowledge, but in English it takes on a meaning of spiritual insight, personal revelation, or transcendence.
Being of Greek blood myself I almost approve - although I find the word maybe a bit too tongue-twistery! Way better than Metroidbrainia though, so I'd take it.
In my head I called those type of games "proble-xploration" as in problem solving to explore.
The cop-out answer is just "non-linear mystery game" I think, but there's probably a better name out there.
Historical context, the metroidbrania subreddit was literally created when someone in r/TheWitness made a thread asking what the name of the genre for The Witness is, and a reply joking that it should be called Metroidbrainia spawned the sub
Ahh, I see. So that was the spawn of the darkness right there. A simple joke turned into a Nightmare.
this whole debate reminds me of IDM and people trying make a genre out of "intelligence" without looking like a complete pretentious dingus.
See the problem with me is that I LOVE looking like a pretentious dingus. I'm a snot-nosed snob, I know it, and I have 0 shame getting balls-deep in an argument about the word "Metroidbrainia" and whether or not we should say it haha. With that said I'm not familiar with the IDM situation. But I'm sure I would have loved it.
Back in my day we used to call these puzzle games
Technically the first Metroid like Castlevania where exploration is the core focus is the first game on the MSX, the second one is the very second Castlevania game and I'd argue both of those had the most influence on the creation of Symphony of the Night, though the map is similar to Metroid.