ONLINE CLASSES: The Mysteries of Mabon, 28th August PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1354459 Celtic Poetry Workshop starts 31st August www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1318071 Women and Goddesses in the Mabinogi starts 8th September PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1327165 Permanent link for all class information: tinyurl.com/GDclasses
I would contend that Mabon and Modron were later euhemerized as mortals. I believe Mabon also appears in Lanzelet, so they were actually turned into Arthurian characters. Of course we can’t know who was a god originally vs a historical figure (Yvain) vs somebody’s original character (Lancelot) unless we can do a bit of historical linguistics and match the character’s name to an actual theonym, so no claiming Galahad is really a Celtic god.
Yes, as Mabuz, if I remember right. But Lanzalet is literature, not history. I wouldn't really call that euhemerization, exactly. More of a literary borrowing. Kind of like modern fantasy authors writing novels with deities as characters. Maybe I'm splitting hairs...
I'm very entinced by the idea that tales of the gods were encoded into legendary heroes. Inversely, I've often wondered if certain 'sacred roles' are embodied through the ages as cultural touchstones. Necessary to keep hope alive and not unlike the messianic traditions.
Yeah, Gwil has mentioned the "Mab Darogan" thing to me in reference to Owain a couple of times, but I think this is something slightly different. What Frank Olding and (to me, surprisingly) Jenny Rowland seem to be hinting at is a belief in some kind of special role for the Cynfarching (and maybe Coeling) tanist during their lifetime. I wonder if this could have had expressions in ritual - either public or in secret.
Sounds to me like the magical descriptions of springs (which we still revere and worship today) were observed on the native liberty caps. Before pubs, all manner of drugs and "education" the drug of choice would have been the caps. It's easy to see how vivid their imaginations would have been. I'm not in any way belittling their views or thoughts, I've had many trips on them myself and feel how much they shaped the world and where modern "science" came from.
The cattle raid poem could be that the author saw the story where Modron gives birth to Owain and Morvydd, and also the word “ap Mordron” next to Mabon’s name and figured they were related.
I would expect a poet of the quality of this poem to be a bit more savvy than that. I really love the idea that parts of the poem could be even oblique references to Mabon ap Modron, but I had always thought that it was just John Koch being overenthusiastically weird. I was surprised to see that Rowland had suggested this back in 1990. As a Brythonic polytheist, I would love for this to be true, but my scholar's head says, "there is no evidence that these references don't just refer to Mabon ap Idno." Which is why I was quite excited to discover this reference to Owain's imprisonment in the Llywarch material, which is probably of the same period. It adds a little more support to the argument.
@@KrisHughes I’m looking at this from the lens of a hobbyist author looking for ways to sort of combine the Welsh mythological stuff with Continental Arthurian tradition, and Owein offers a perfect lens. I also did the thing where I saw ap Modron and assumed they were related.
@@mercianthane2503 no idea. What makes you think he was an Angle? Yes, Urien and Owen were involved in battles against the Bernicians, but they were also apparently involved in battles with neighbouring Britons. I wonder if Fflamddwyn is an alternative of Arthur's warrior Fflewdder Fflam...
@@jamescarruthers1967 I don't know, haha. It very could be just a briton warlord attacking Urien, since, as you said, they were also apparently involved in battles with neighbouring britons.
That's definitely one theory! However, the poem reference places which are much further south, and not very specifically where, so it's really anybody's guess.
As someone whose surname is derived from Owain’s name; I have always been fascinated by him and puzzled by the fact he and Mabon have the same Mother. I have often wondered if there was a possibility that Owain was an epithet of Mabon. I believe Owain means “Noble Born” which could be a different way of describing “The Divine Son of The Divine Mother” 🤔
I've never heard that meaning ascribed to Owain. "High born" is generally understood to be the meaning of Urien. The linguists are still arguing about the meaning and origin of Owain. Does it start as a Celtic name or come from the Latin Eugenius? Does it mean - born of sheep? born of desire? good birth? None of which answers your idea, I know, except to say that if it's an epithet of Mabon, the evidence isn't very clear.
Most, or all, of the sons of Llywarch are probably legendary rather than historical. I don't know enough about the Arthurian Pelles to make a useful comparison, although I do know the name.
ONLINE CLASSES:
The Mysteries of Mabon, 28th August PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1354459
Celtic Poetry Workshop starts 31st August www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1318071
Women and Goddesses in the Mabinogi starts 8th September PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN www.tickettailor.com/events/krishughes/1327165
Permanent link for all class information: tinyurl.com/GDclasses
Very nice explanation love the stories💗💚💙
I would contend that Mabon and Modron were later euhemerized as mortals. I believe Mabon also appears in Lanzelet, so they were actually turned into Arthurian characters. Of course we can’t know who was a god originally vs a historical figure (Yvain) vs somebody’s original character (Lancelot) unless we can do a bit of historical linguistics and match the character’s name to an actual theonym, so no claiming Galahad is really a Celtic god.
Yes, as Mabuz, if I remember right. But Lanzalet is literature, not history. I wouldn't really call that euhemerization, exactly. More of a literary borrowing. Kind of like modern fantasy authors writing novels with deities as characters. Maybe I'm splitting hairs...
I'm very entinced by the idea that tales of the gods were encoded into legendary heroes. Inversely, I've often wondered if certain 'sacred roles' are embodied through the ages as cultural touchstones. Necessary to keep hope alive and not unlike the messianic traditions.
Yeah, Gwil has mentioned the "Mab Darogan" thing to me in reference to Owain a couple of times, but I think this is something slightly different. What Frank Olding and (to me, surprisingly) Jenny Rowland seem to be hinting at is a belief in some kind of special role for the Cynfarching (and maybe Coeling) tanist during their lifetime. I wonder if this could have had expressions in ritual - either public or in secret.
Sounds to me like the magical descriptions of springs (which we still revere and worship today) were observed on the native liberty caps.
Before pubs, all manner of drugs and "education" the drug of choice would have been the caps. It's easy to see how vivid their imaginations would have been. I'm not in any way belittling their views or thoughts, I've had many trips on them myself and feel how much they shaped the world and where modern "science" came from.
The cattle raid poem could be that the author saw the story where Modron gives birth to Owain and Morvydd, and also the word “ap Mordron” next to Mabon’s name and figured they were related.
I would expect a poet of the quality of this poem to be a bit more savvy than that. I really love the idea that parts of the poem could be even oblique references to Mabon ap Modron, but I had always thought that it was just John Koch being overenthusiastically weird. I was surprised to see that Rowland had suggested this back in 1990. As a Brythonic polytheist, I would love for this to be true, but my scholar's head says, "there is no evidence that these references don't just refer to Mabon ap Idno."
Which is why I was quite excited to discover this reference to Owain's imprisonment in the Llywarch material, which is probably of the same period. It adds a little more support to the argument.
@@KrisHughes I’m looking at this from the lens of a hobbyist author looking for ways to sort of combine the Welsh mythological stuff with Continental Arthurian tradition, and Owein offers a perfect lens. I also did the thing where I saw ap Modron and assumed they were related.
@@KrisHughes wait, is idno his mother or Father. Iirc, there’s also Mabon ap Mellt. Modron is Mabon ap Modron’s mother.
I'm not entirely sure the evidence for equating Theodoric and Fflamddwyn, but I'm sceptical of it.
yeah, the narrative doesn’t line up.
Yeah - it's the general consensus. The Angles don't much interest me and it makes no real difference to the story.
Who do you think was Fflamddwyn? Or is it hard to equate him with any anglian warlord?
@@mercianthane2503 no idea. What makes you think he was an Angle? Yes, Urien and Owen were involved in battles against the Bernicians, but they were also apparently involved in battles with neighbouring Britons.
I wonder if Fflamddwyn is an alternative of Arthur's warrior Fflewdder Fflam...
@@jamescarruthers1967 I don't know, haha. It very could be just a briton warlord attacking Urien, since, as you said, they were also apparently involved in battles with neighbouring britons.
Where or what are the 'chalklands'...?? Could they be Kelso area??
That's definitely one theory! However, the poem reference places which are much further south, and not very specifically where, so it's really anybody's guess.
As someone whose surname is derived from Owain’s name; I have always been fascinated by him and puzzled by the fact he and Mabon have the same Mother. I have often wondered if there was a possibility that Owain was an epithet of Mabon. I believe Owain means “Noble Born” which could be a different way of describing “The Divine Son of The Divine Mother” 🤔
I've never heard that meaning ascribed to Owain. "High born" is generally understood to be the meaning of Urien. The linguists are still arguing about the meaning and origin of Owain. Does it start as a Celtic name or come from the Latin Eugenius? Does it mean - born of sheep? born of desire? good birth? None of which answers your idea, I know, except to say that if it's an epithet of Mabon, the evidence isn't very clear.
@@KrisHughes my understanding was that it comes from the same root as Greek Eugene, meaning Highborn.
Could Pelis be Pelles from Arthurian Legend,
Most, or all, of the sons of Llywarch are probably legendary rather than historical. I don't know enough about the Arthurian Pelles to make a useful comparison, although I do know the name.