"The child refused to follow the father's self-less example" gets me every-time, there's quite a gap between not being selfless and not wanting wanting to die pointlessly. Bethedsa just really wanted you to die then got all bitter about you not dying.
And it wasn't even a selfless sacrifice in the first place: by that point in the game your character was probably tearing through Enclave troops like they were tissue paper. If your dad had just opened the door you could have easily wiped out the forces in that water purifier room and saved him.
Lol, exactly. It's way more realistic and logical for the heroes to have determined who was the best candidate to perform the task. We're basically chastised for being practical and reasonable 😅
It's Emil Papagliano and I swear he holds some black mail material over Todd Howard and that's how he still gets to keep his job even though he failed as a scenario writer time and time again.
@@Senorcyborg I mean, to be extremely fair, the Bethesda Fallout games are wildly successful. Plot-holes and wonky scenario logic aside. So, I can't blame Todd for wanting to stick to what works.
Fallout 3 was even more nuts than you've noted: -The super mutantant follower -The brainwashed and subservient ghoul follower -The Robot follower Are all immune to radiation and would all refuse to go in the chamber
I think the issue was the devin in charge of the main story REALLY wanted you to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. It was the big Finale to the story. But you probably also have other parts of the team writing the companion scenarios and helping to fill out the world. Presumably either the companion writers weren't told how the game would end or they just simply failed to notice and when it came to put the pieces together the lead writer refused to allow an easy option where the main character doesn't sacrifice themselves or anyone else. It was fine if you made soemone else die in your place because this is a choice driven game so doing that's the "bad choice". But giving you a choice where no one dies wasn't allowed since that makes the "true ending" where you sacrifice yourself ... kind of stupid Honestly though ... if they were that insistent on the main character sacrificing themselves then they should have made it so ONLY the main character could do it and the choice would be "sacrifice yourself or everyone dies".
I feel like the best fix was for it to allow for the player to send any comrade instead of themselves, even those who would die by doing so. It would give bad karma if those sent were to die, but not for those immune; still, those sent would always become the fabled hero in their place if done so
That damn Fallout one. It's like seeing someone drowning while you're at the beach with Aquaman and being told you're the bad guy for saying he should save them.
@@Ylyrra In the case of Superman, it was a matter of Clark still being a kid (comparatively) and not revealing his superhuman abilities to endanger himself and the rest of the town.
@@azuredragoon2054 as many other have pointed out with all the chaos going on litterly no one would have said "hey that fark boy must have used super speed to rescue his dad, he must be this 'superman.' Hell it weakens the message every other pa kent death has (hell justice leage doesnt even kill pa kent) that despite all his powers you cant save everyone when pa kent dies of natural causes. It's a core element of clark being hunbled by death and resolving to save everyone he cant but not letting those he cant save crush his spirit.
@@azuredragoon2054 He didn't need to reveal his abilities. If rescuing the dog was plausibly possible for his dad, it was plausibly possible for superman especially given anyone else around was going to be distracted by their own survival. He didn't need to use any of his visible superpowers.
The Fawkes thing is even more stupid when you remember that earlier in the game and the place you met him in the first place he had to go into a super irradiated place to retrieve the G.E.C.K. because you couldn’t possibly survive in there. And yet he balks at going into a room now and just pushing some buttons and if he does the game mocks you for it.
Seems the developers backed themselves into a corner (story wise) with that one! I have a feeling they "forgot" about Fawkes when it came to the ending so when they wanted the "noble sacrifice" choice/ending they forced it to happen that way which is just bad writing! LOL You can't have a series of good/bad decisions throughout the game that then ends with a "dumb" decision! LOL
thats emil pagliarulo's quality lever of writing for fallout franchise. he's slightly better now, but still far from the level of writing for fallout new vegas.
I don't even understand why Fawkes, and apparently the Fallout narrator as well, would consider dying to activate the device to be my destiny in the first place. Nowhere in the game is the act prophesized. There's no actual benefit to doing it myself instead of sending Fawkes, not even in a symbolic or moral sense. If the update simply let you choose Fawkes without being dicks about it, I'd say maybe Fawkes wasn't intended to be there at that point in the game, and they simply didn't have time to record new lines. But because they *did* act like dicks with the insulting narration and the bad karma, I instead have to conclude that the writers have a very messed up idea of what constitutes "heroism".
Fallout 3 story makes no sense at all at times. Like when you finally find dad and he gets on your case for leaving the vault he left you in to keep you safe like you're an ingrate or something - the same vault that you almost got killed in because of your dad and his hijinks. I think the writers were too engrossed in Big Philosophical Concepts and just ignored everything else lol.
@@abadenoughdude300 ah, writing by consignment... NOT committee, IE a head writer lays out a basic framework, and sub-writers do all the detail work. Those sub-writers... aren't necessarily on the same page as each other OR the head writer.
@abadenoughdude300 That is, when they weren't just ripping off the plot of Fallout 2 wholesale, which is what the bit with the GECK and the Enclave is.
Besides Fawkes players have potentially two other companions who are immune to radiation, Charon the ghoul, and Sergeant RL-3, a Mr. Gutsy robot. So it's especially absurd that the Lone Wanderer MUST sacrifice themselves to get the "good" ending. The first time I played Fallout 3 I thought having Fawkes around to enter the chamber instead of my character was my good karma reward for my earlier willingness to befriend a Super-Mutant. I was quite taken aback to discover that the game was calling me a coward for not pointlessly committing suicide.
@@zachtwilightwindwaker596 True, but then they add "And the protagonist didn't kill himself pointlessly like he should have." Crisis averted, and I'm the dick for making a good decision?
I think radiation does actually fuck with electronics. People cleaning up the Chernobyl site had cameras with fresh batteries, and those things died fast, and they used robots to gather debris and even those started going haywire. Still doesn't excuse Charon not going in.
As someone who had to go to therapy for their anger, Kratos is spot on. You do lose sight of what made you so angry in the first place and indulge in rage
I really disliked those classes and sessions. The mediator and therapist kept asking the same questions and making the same assumptions. It was VERY upsetting. That's why I don't engage with people unless absolutely necessary.
@@Logan7281Xso anger management made you angry? Generally that's the idea, so you can learn to manage and realize it's only upsetting because you let it be upsetting, or actually enjoy "indulging in anger" as the OP said, or tracing your anger back to its root fear, etc.
I haven't played god of War myself so I could be way off, but just listening to the description of the events, that sounds much less like a plot hole and much more like an intentional part of the narrative, showing you how Kratos' priorities have changed and how he's let his anger warp his perspective - or maybe revealing he already had rage in his heart and was subconsciously using their deaths as justification for acting on it. Like I said! I don't have the full story lol. But it sounds like it could be more intentional than a fluke
@@drawingdragon Don't think you are far off, it is clear throught his story, that he might have used every excuse. If I remember correctly, he became the subordinate of Ares because he wanted to gain power in order to win battles with his army. Also, due to his upbringing, he was destined to be filled with anger, being trained to be a soldier in every aspect of life
My favorite part avour the Fallout 3 plot hole is that its not just Fawks that risks nothing by entering the chamber. Both Charon and RL-3 risk nothing by doing it as well
And Charon doesn't care about morality so there shouldn't be the morality problem brought up by fawkes (telling you it's your destiny and he wouldn't rob you of that) Charon would do it without question
Sharon won't do it be cause he follows his contract to a T. It's why he doesn't kill his previous contract holder until the contract exchanges to your hand.
That LA Noir entry is so much better if you just imagine one guy sprinting on one side of the table to the next just to make a new shot hes really committed even though half the conversation is out of context now 😂😂🥴
I like to imagine it was a guy doing it secretly with giant hidden cameras... But he's also narcissistic so he needs his whistle to be the best thing you've ever watched.
I think a lot of people miss the point for that specific moment in GOW 2. It's the reason why Kratos is so focused on teaching Atreus to control his anger because he lost control of himself to anger in the original trilogy. His rage is what led him to prioritize his vengeance over his family once he had the golden opportunity to save them. When the dev were asked why he didn't save his family instead, their response were "He was too angry." He was blinded by rage. It's also safe to say that he have already accepted their death at the beginning of GOW 2. That's why he simply continued his conquest for Sparta as the God of War.
I also imagine that manipulating the Loom of Fate was rather difficult, it seems like he has to put a lot of strength into going back in time, so it might not have been much of an option for him to go THAT far back anyways (especially since he kind of just enters into that moment rather than actually being able to prevent his own death.)
I remember some making-of content back in the day, not sure if it was about GOW 1 or 2, but there was a quote where people were apparently supposed to "come to work pissed off", because rage was basically Kratos' entire personality at that point. So yeah, it makes total sense that he was too consumed by it to make any rational decision. I mean, in the third game he all but brought about the apocalypse in his quest for revenge (only in Greece, as we learn in the newer games, but still). He wasn't one for level-headed action.
Another aspect people seem to forget is Gaia appearing before Kratos after Zeus has killed him and telling him that she and the other Titans would help Kratos defeat Zeus. From that first meeting she was manipulating Kratos throughout God of War II to get what she wanted. As she then says in God of War III: _”I saved you to serve the titans.”_ _”Listen carefully, Kratos. _*_You were a simple pawn, nothing more._*_ Zeus is no longer your concern. This is our war. Not yours.”_
"He was too angry" yeah lmao. It's obvious the writers didn't think of this plot hole and made up BS excuses. They wanted to milk this franchise dry. That's why they moved on with other pantheons.
@insertname9736 yea, like people don't get so angry that they lose themselves to their anger and do things that they later regret. That's so unrealistic and terrible writing
Let's not forget RL-3 which not only REQUIRES neutral karma to get (making the stupid sacrifice break all role-playing tied into being a neutral character) is also immune to radiation and programmed to FOLLOW ORDERS
Shooting at a metal target and not realizing that ricochet is a thing. Personally speaking, this is why I don’t mess with steel targets at the range. Steel targets make me very nervous because of the ricochet risk.
The plothole that still bugs me after all these years is that the first Resident Evil never gives you the canon ending. Chris, Rebecca, Jill, Barry all survive, and are all in subsequent media (Rebecca less so in games, but the CGI movies are canon). So how come no ending exists where they all survive? The remake didn’t even fix it.
Heavy Rain has a *lot* of unexplained plot holes, but this one is definitely a good example of David Cage's philosophy of "Think of stuff that sounds cool first, then just jam it all together and pray that it makes sense."
No they had some significant cut plot points in the game. For example Ethan having a psychic link to the Oragami Killer which explains his blackouts and the flashbacksZ
@@emberfist8347True, but even the more grounded storylines suffered from a lack of a solid framework. It was cool moments but in the overall story narrative, it doesn't make sense.
Honestly they could have just made it an odd stress disorder. Replace we're he walks to or make him coincidentally from the same place it all started. And boom... Kinda fixed while keeping the "is he a skitzo killer?" Aspect.
The god of war II entry isn’t really a plot hole but a case of Tragic Irony. Vengeance has come to define him so much that he can’t think to undo the cause but instead continue. It makes perfect EMOTIONAL sense which is why it doesn’t make “logical” because never forget we emote we feel before we think.
I agree I believe he was so blinded by vengeance and anger at the very thought of just fixing it never crossed his mind or that he was so pinpoint focused that everything outside of vengeance didn't matter initially and by the time he even realized that this was a possibility something in the new God of wars kind of hinted on is that magic or whatever it's tied to the land. by the time he killed Zeus and all that the land was dying so he probably did not even have the option to change it at that point it's too late@@Joyful_Traitor
Fair. It does mean that a very strategic enemy who wanted to hurt Angry Kratos could arrange for someone _else_ to attack/betray/kill Angry Kratos immediately afterwards so his vengeance would be too focused on that _second_ offense to get back to dealing with the first. (Alternate universe time!)
You could also say that all the timelines in which he does go back in time to save his family result in alternate timelines that aren't part of the games' canon. If he goes back to save his family none of the events happen that result in him being able to go back in time to save his family, which means his family gets murdered again, which sets in motion the events that lead to him being able to go back in time to save his family, etc.
It's also why in horror movies characters make dumb decisions. Whenever an emotion becomes powerful enough to overcome you it causes your prefrontal cortex to shut off. The prefrontal cortex is where you do all of your critical thinking.
The example of Fallout 3 is what I like to call being pragmatic. Why pointlessly sacrifice yourself when you can just get Fawkes to do it instead. Unfortunately the game calls you a coward if you take this option.
The writers definitely got fixated on this stupid "grand sacrifice" angle of the ending not taking into account whether or not it actually makes sense it should go this way the sacrifice is the overly heroic one the neutral ending is you sending a radiation immune companion in (the ending slide should reflect that you avoided needless sacrifice and chose your own destiny) and the bad ending is sending in Sarah Lyons or any non radiation immune follower and the game rightly chastises you for going that route
Unsurprisingly in both Fallout and New Vegas you were able to be pragmatic and reason your way out of major plot points without any sacrifice. Edit: unsurprisingly because those were under obsidian.
It is the developers that do that, let's be real. They are dumbasses who could not figure out a better reason for it, like toxins come out that are deadly to anyone who goes in there... They made a bad choice and they will defend it to their grave.
I love Grand sacrifices, specially in moments to let others escape. But like... It's kind of stupid to put on a bomb vest to open a door when you have a key...
The FF8 thing. Irvine's relationship with Edea is why he has problems pulling the trigger on her during the assassination mission back in Disk 1. People like to point at the failed assassination attempt as an example of Irvine being terrible but they forget its relevance when the discussions of the orphanage are brought up. Rather convenient, that. All of his orphan friends were still together but NONE of them mentioned or remembered him. He thought he was unimportant to them, not worth remembering. It's not that he was being rude to them, he was returning the energy he thought they were giving him. Once the issue is resolved things change within the group to some degree. The thing about GFs causing amnesia is actually brought up in various places throughout the game, but the majority of it in codex-style logs in the menu. Can't really blame people for missing that one tbh.
This still does not really explain the plot hole. First off you start the game already a student of seed but have to clear the first dugeon to contract your first GF, so even if the gf's coincedenly chose to erase all the same memories, the main characters still went to school with out recognising each other before they lost their memories. So either the issue with memory loss is irelevant becuse the part would recognise each other anyways or its still a plot hole.
@@Prinygod Technically, you start with two school supplied GFs before going after Ifrit: Quetzelcotl and Shiva. Also each of the Gardens has a specialty with Balamb's being use of GFs and junctioning magic to stats via the GF. Trabia's was focused on researching and casting magic meaning they also probably used GFs to a degree, and Galbadia's was weapons combat and military strategy. Of the three, Galbadia is the only one that doesn't use GFs as part of the curriculum. The implication is that the reason that Squall and the others would have used GFs regularly during training prior to the SeeD exam qualifier which would lead to their memories being more heavily eroded simply as a result of which Garden they happened to be enrolled in. None of this, however, is explicitly stated in game unless you go hunting for blurbs and then make the logical deduction that leads to the imlication from those blurbs. So its a plot hole if you don't go on a lore hunt, but it's a fairly minor one if you do. Frankly, FFVII has bigger plot holes and plot cul-de-sacs than FFVIII. I would argue a bigger plot hole revolves around how Rinoa is kind of unneccessary even as far as the whole Sorceress inheritance thing is concerned on top of the whole 'oh our parents had a doomed romance that was never fulfilled so isn't it ironic that we, their children, end up together' plot thread. Allow me to elaborate. So, as mentioned above, Trabia Garden specialized in magic and Selphie attended there right up until she transferred over to take the SeeD qualification. This is reflected by her base magic stats which are even higher than Rinoa's base magic stats. Selphie is set up, stat wise, to be the best candidate to inherit the powers of the Sorceress and the only reason she isn't is mainly because someone at Square thought the Squall-Rinoa love story was more important than the story about the amnesiac childhood friends being reunited and needed to justify keeping her around. The main problem with the love story is that Squall barely tolerates Rinoa up until disc 3 when the plot needs him to run off with her comatose body to advance the story and he suddenly contracts feelings out of nowhere. There is no build up to their relationship. He doesn't come across in the dialogue as hating her, mind you, but he doesn't come across as liking her much either. He seems neutral at best and mildly annoyed by her at worst. This is a translation issue above all else. Japanese has suffixes that, when attached to a person's name, indicates the degree of formality or casualness one regards that person with as well as the degree of emotional distance or comfort on feels towards that person. English does not and there is no real way to communicate that linguistic subtext while keeping conversations natural. I've never played the Japanese version nor have I read a translated script that leaves those suffixes in. I don't know if it works better in Japanese than it does in English or other languages. I just know it doesn't work well in English which makes Rinoa's presence past Timber a plot hole and a pretty bad one at that. The sad fact is that, in English, the game plot works fine without Rinoa past Timber and with Selphie taking over as Sorceress Successor. Instead of the love story, it could be old friendships rekindled that pull Squall out of his shell. Heck, he could even be as gay for Seifer as certain elements of the fanbase remain convinced he is and it would be less awkward if a romance was absolutely necessary for the plot to work. But the romantic element isn't necessary at all. When your story works just as well without a romantic plot line as it does with one, that implies the romance isn't needed for the story to work. It's just there because the writer(s) want a romance. When the romance hurts the story with it's inclusion then it's a directing/editing failure because somebody needed to give the writer(s) who wanted the romance a firm 'no' and stuck to it. ....No, I'm not studying to be a writer or anything! Why do you ask!?
Irvine was good in the assassination, just nervous due to the high stakes. The shot was perfect and would have gone through Edea's skull if she hadn't magically formed a shield for it to ping off.
@Prinygod As it is also explained in the codexy area of the menu, Balamb Garden specifically trains its students in the use of GFs while the other two (Trabia and Galbadia Gardens) do not. Squall is able to grab two right out of his computer. The mission to obtain Ifrit is different in that he has to earn this one, it is not given to him as a part of his studies. During the scene in Trabia Garden ruins, Selphie explains that prior to joining Balamb Garden, she had encountered and Junctioned an un-named GF, giving this as the reason she could not remember Irvine when they met up at Galbadian Garden. In fact, Balamb Garden exclusively training with the GFs is why they have the line about Selphie and the unknown GF in that scene to begin with. The GFs do not choose what memories are erased. It's just general long-term memories that are lost. Again, it's all there in the game if you choose to look for it. Most just don't.
Honestly, anything involving time travel is going to create plot holes if the writers don't stick to the rules about how it works in their fiction. Look at all of the plotholes in Sonic 06's story, for example
I've rarely seen time travel done well and consistently. You either duplicate yourself in an another timeline or if there's only one timeline then you create a paradox.
@@101Lunga I think the series D A R K did it pretty well: 2 orchestrated timelines in a kind of figure 8 loop, that kept repeating over and over and over again. But, as with all things that repeat over and over, the smallest, tiniest thing might change and suddenly derail into a 3rd loop, which is a one-time chance that can then be used to unravel everything and return to one timeline, before the events of the 2 loops happen. And then the future plays out as intended.
To be fair, Sonic 06 was a rushjob by the devs being forced to have it released by the holiday season... they had no time to iron anything out, including the story and its script
I always took the Life is Strange one to be that because it was Max's first time using it, she unintentionally took herself (and everything) back in time. Subsequent uses were like her body had adjusted to it (even if a subconscious thing) so allowed her to stay there. Probably bollocks but works for me...
Nah that works in my book. Plus, she actually gets in other places after using it one too many times, albeit in places were the fabric of time and space is quite janky
Yeah, it was done in panic, unexpectedly, and suddenly. We see later when she's panicking that time starts to unravel. Her fear makes her lose control. Future games in the series literally establish that fear and anger interfere with people's powers, and that only taking control of your own emotions will guide you. Also saving Chloe is the only acceptable ending. Giving in to guilt and condemning yourself to a lifetime of PTSD and guilt and sorrow knowing you could save someone you love in order to prevent... damage to a town that results in no deaths and only a lot of confusion? Save Chloe. They can rebuild. The "heroic" sacrifice ending is guilt laden bullshit.
@@chrismanuel9768I always thought the assumption was that most of the characters die since we don’t see anyone anymore in the ending that Chloe survives. Unless there is more stuff in the sequels that I haven’t played, it’s implied that a lot of the NPCs you knew died
@@mattyt1961 Only for a third iteration to come up and fail to save the pair, leading to Sean Bean dying three times in a single movie. He has to one up Goldeneye where he died twice.
The LA Noire one is especially funny when you realize how inefficient and complex any set of film equipment had to be in those days. Now you can do it on anyone's phone but in the 1940s you'd need at least three massive cameras, a whole tree of huge microphones, a good hundred technicians and tons of stage lights. Not to mention the coordination would probably take at least a day. Quite the effort, just to risk exposing their own nefarious scheme.
"Guys....what if we film ourselves talking abut this plan?" "...why?" "it would help as a reminder and a momento, and it'd be fucking cool." "okay I trust you."
I'm guessing it was originally supposed to be a cutscene, which then got hastily turned into a piece of evidence due to the game's production challenges. Still very stupid!
The really clever thing about the Song of Storms originating in a bootstrap paradox is that the song itself is an infinite loop, with no actual beginning or end.
I was thinking it's a paradox on purpose. A better question is, why didn't the Song of Storms stop the Windmill from turning? Once the well was drained why didn't Link just play it again to stop it?
I would propose that maybe it was invented/found in the defeated timeline, but far too late to be of use, and that started the 2 victorious Child and Adult timelines. We never actually experience the defeated timeline in Ocarina after all, we only see the Adult and Child Victory timelines because we win in the adult timeline and then are sent back to the Child to prevent it from ever happening. The defeated link presumably discovered it in some obscure place we never actually go to, but it took so much time that he could no longer beat Ganon for some reason. However, by traveling back in time with the future knowledge, he now is creating a whole new timeline in the future where he had future knowledge back in the past. However, the Defeated link is connected to the original timeline where there is no future knowledge applied in the past, and thus ends up being unable to beat Ganon because he doesn't have access to all the tools he needs. But of course, by obtaining future knowledge and bringing it to the past, he creates the first new branched timeline, the altered future, which is the one we end up in, where we can now do things like learn the song of storms from the windmill keeper. This allows us to actually win creating the victorious adult timeline, which in turn allows us to finally go to the past for good, thus finally creating the third branch , the child victory branch were Ganondorf's plans are foiled before they even begin.
@@anialator1000000 I believe link wrote the magical version by listening to the windmill song and trying to accompany him in the original loop, then went back in time after finding out it drained the well as an adult when the cave is sealed.
Axually 🤓 the song of storms was created by a pair of brothers you meet (their ghosts at least) in Majora's Mask. So it's possible for link to come back to Hyrule after the events on Termina, and teach the song to the windmill guy
I do like that the Irvine thing explains some of his earlier behaviour though, because his ONE job was to snipe the sorceress early on but he couldnt do it and at the time it just seemed like he was a terrible sniper but with the context of his memories suddenly it makes sense that he couldnt bring himself to assassinate his beloved matron
This is brought up in the original Japanese as well as the written story of the game, but isn't explicitly mentioned in the English translation. They left it as subtext for second playthroughs. Unfortunately nobody played through a second time apparently 😂
@@chrismanuel9768People probably would have a better time with a remake of this game... But a Dead Space type for remake, not an FF7 remake 😅 IIRC there was also some material meant for FF8 that didn't make it in because of time restraints, so maybe they could add that as well.
@@chrismanuel9768 translation inaccuracies plague a lot of Japanese games but in this case it's tons of mischaracterization too, English Squall acts all edgy but original version had him as really insecure and constantly apologizing instead of answering everything with ...Whatever.
Except he gets too nervous to pull the trigger. Could that be due to conflicted feelings? He says it happens all the time, but that could be a lie; after all, if it were the truth, there would be no reason for him to be selected.
Not to mention the memory loss thing is never really mentioned again and seems to only exist to provide an explanation for such a dumb plot twist. Sacrificing power for memories sounds like an interesting plot point and yet nothing is really done with it
The thing about Irvine (FF8) actually kind of makes sense. The man struggles with anxiety, hard, and it's not made *super* clear in the scene where he's been hired to assassinate the Sorceress, but when he sees who she is, he has a complete nervous breakdown and can't pull the trigger, at first. No one else understands why, and they never explicitly stated it, but it's hinted, strongly, that it's because he recognizes the woman who raised him, even if the others did not, and just couldn't do the deed. That anxiety probably also translates to social situations and conversational confrontations, meaning he wasn't annoyed with the others, just afraid to bring to their attention their apparently forgotten shared backstory.
also, right after he is introduced, the first thing he does after Martine leaves is make a joke and then walk over as if they're old friends, at which point everyone walks right past him to discuss the plan, and then act like they've never met him. he tried to talk to Selfie on the train and starts talking about fate bringing them together, but everyone thinks he's being a perv. so he stops trying
@@arielcervantes5378 True! I was specifically discussing important context that was missed by the video, but yeah, this is absolutely why his friends don't remember anything about him, Edea, or the orphanage
I remember a few more plot holes in Heavy Rain. One of them is Madison's reaction to finding out the killer's identity. The player knows who it is but Madison doesn't, the name would mean nothing to her. Another one is when she remarks that Norman Jayden is the only one they can trust, even though she has never interacted with him throughout the story.
And the Tiny details with the identity of the Killer, that makes no sence when you Think for just one second. Yasus I laughed so Hard when I Saw where they went.
Yep. Those always bothered me. Plus: - Based on how it's shot, how did Jason die? Ethan took the hit from both the car and the ground. - The entire typewriter arc with Lauren and Scott is one big miss when you think about it. From why Scott even introduced the typewriter evidence to begin with, how did Scott kill Manfred when the player was controlling him, to how Lauren got the listing from the office when she never had access to that office. That was just a poorly written and edited scene that should have been reworked.
@@GAshoneybear This is a game that could benefit from a remake. Tightening up the story, maybe replacing the voice actors and introducing the graphics engine and mechanics from Detroit as well.
@liveac3694 100% agree. The premise was solid, and people liked the game. They could do supernatural and realistic versions to maximize fanbases. Someone who is a more supernatural fan could their game version focus more on Ethan and Scott and have all the blackout/telepathic arc added back into the game. Whereas someone who is more of a detective/mystery game fan would their version focus more on Madison and Jaden without the supernatural elements, but flesh out their story arcs more.
@@GAshoneybearYou actually don't control Scott at the moment he kills Manfred. It happens during a cutscene where all the clocks go off and start chiming. The real question would be why did Scott think to himself about going to look what's taking Manfred so long after he had killed him?
The plot hole that bothered me the most was in the Borderlands 3 when you actually play as a siren. The story literally revolves around the destiny of sirens and there you are, right in front of one of the other SIX sirens in the universe and they treat you just the same as some former soldier or roguish Vault Hunter.
Lol yeah but let's be real here, Borderlands 3's writing was just terrible in general. I mean: -Literally everything about Ava -But especially Ava being promoted to captain at the end despite the fact that she got Maya killed by being immature, impulsive and reckless, never owns up to her mistake, blames everyone else and never experiences even the slightest character growth AND there being any number of adult characters that are overwhelmingly more qualified -The game treats you, some newbie who just recently showed up, as if you're the Crimson Raider's #1 soldier and even designates Brick, Mordecai and Tiny Tina as "the B team" even though they're all longtime veterans of the group and in the second game you were literally treated as a recruit who was eventually introduced to the legacy characters as these major members of the team who were all had significant roles to play and that you were only introduced to as you actually earned your place in the group. Why were they suddenly sidelined and demoted? -The Calypsos motives are stupid. Like... they literally could have had the sister (don't even remember their names honestly) end up having her mind corrupted by an entity within the vault when she first came in contact with it... but instead, no, they're actually just some kids having a hissy fit because their dad was too overprotective because he didn't want his daughter being hunted down for being a siren... and because of that they just decide to turn into remorseless psychotic murderers. Like.... I guess it could happen but it doesn't make them very compelling characters, it just makes them more irritating than they already were. Like idk if we can call anything in that game a plot hole because that implies there's parts of the plot that actually make any kind of sense.
you also get that chastising in fallout 3 if you send sergeant rl-3 (the neutral radiation immune companion) or charon (the evil radiation immune companion) which means you get to be chastised by sending not 1 but 3 different companions
To me the most annoying and preachy part was when in a few murder cases you have to pick the guys that evidence points against just because game claims they're worse off for society. You're ONLY allowed to get perfect score for framing innocents because you don't like them.... Realistic police work, hey!
I love the idea that conspirators having a secret meeting to discuss the most devious things, are completely nonchalant about multiple cameramen in their faces walking around their table with what would have been very large and noisy old film cameras.
Bonus points for that Fallout 3 plothole: just *before* you're given the "choice", you have to fight Colonel Autumn... who just a few hours earlier in the game *survived* this exact scenario. If he survived before because of some unknown chem he injected - why doesn't he have more of it now (since he's planning to activate it himself) for you to loot off his corpse? Or for him to give you if you convince him to stand down? Whole ending was just a complete trainwreck that makes no sense.
Because the radiation wasn’t as bad yet. Dr. Li explain the purifier’s purge vents were damaged in the final battle for the Jefferson Memorial which is why it will explode if it isn’t activated. The lab thus became significantly more radioactive than Autumn had intended.
@@emberfist8347 except it says nothing of the sort as far as how much radiation is present - you can check the game transcripts. The vents *are* damaged in the fighting, so the *pressure* is building, which is why you need to activate it now, but nothing is said about how much radiation is in there compared to before - merely that it's a lethal dose. To quote Doctor Li: "There's pressure building up in the holding tanks. It needs to be released now, or else the whole facility could explode. To release the pressure, you're going to have to turn the purifier on. Do you understand me? It has to be turned on NOW. If I'm reading this right, I'm afraid there are lethal levels of radiation inside the chamber. I'm sorry. I wish there were some other way, but there's just no time. It has to be done now, or the damage will be catastrophic." Nothing about more radiation than Autumn intended.
@@EnderPryde Why would there be so much pressure? Probably because damaging the vents caused an uncontrolled nuclear reaction like what caused the Chernobyl explosion.
No mention of Max in Life Is Strange being able to stop the magical equivalent of Sharknado (but with less wildlife and more "nuke life") that was CREATED by her abusing her power.... by further abusing her power? And we don't even get an explanation of WHY she's allowed to break the time limit that she's had since the start of the game.
I can understand that the universe stops trying to fix itself once Max goes back and lets Chloe die, but I have no idea why it decides the storm is the last thing it's gonna try to fix things. If I were Max or Chloe I'd be worried that the actual apocalypse is the next thing I'd have to worry about. There's no reason to think that this is it for the universe's self correcting.
@@weneedaladder8384 I've only read a few issues, but doesn't the comic set in the "save Chloe" timeline establish that time does in fact keep going wonky? I don't remember if it's still attributed to the same reasoning as the storm, though.
@@deadersurvival4716 that would make sense if Max dies, but she doesn't in the Bae over Bay ending. The sacred timeline just... gives up, i guess. And somehow Max knew that would happen after only 5000 or so deaths.
Fun thing with Fallout 3: People always bring up Fawkes, but there are also two other companion options that could also freely activate the Water Purifier with zero harm to themselves, who also refuse to do so for various BS reasons without Broken Steel installed: Charon, the ghoul mercenary from the Ninth Circle bar, and Sergeant RL-3, a Mister Gutsy robot.
The robot I could understand he is not as maneuverable as a human But Charon not only does he have fingers but he is contracted to do whatever you want no matter what
OMG I just recently finished LA NOIRE and I had the same problem! I kept asking “who the hell recorded these idiots chatting about their crimes?” THANK YOU! Because I played it so many years after the fact i was wondering if I was alone in this! Thankfully I am not. Lol
before we start this meeting, who is that over there? "oh thats just bob, he's setting up the six movie cameras, each larger than a human being. that will record this meeting for posterity" 'uh...is that wise? what if-" "RIGHT ROLL 'EM BOB!" * clackackackACKACKACKACKAKCKAKCKACKKCKKACKACKACKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKC*
@@daviddaugherty2816 I imagine the same scene playing out but everyone is speaking as loud as they can to make up for the loud ass whirr of the camera! “OKAY LETS GET BACK TO WORK…” “WAIT WHAT DID HE SAY?” “I THINK HE CALLED YOU A JERK?!” “DO I KNOW HOW TO TWERK?!” 🤣
The biggest Plothole I recently discovered was in Prince of Persia - the Lost Crown : the Protagonist goes back in time at a certain point, to save another character who died earlier and succeeds. But even though he time travelled, nothing else was rewritten so other characters aka bosses killed on the way to time travelling stay dead and changes he did in the Environment, also stay. This really bugs me somehow.
With Kratos, the point is that he chooses not to save them. The whole narrative is about him getting more and more blinded by vengeance and hatred to the extent that he loses sight of what set him down that path to begin with. In that moment he falls further than he ever had up to that point by forgetting his family in favor of his hatred of Zeus.
like the entire series ends with the greek gods dead, and the crustian god on the horizon and kratons basicaly saying "hes next." Hell the devels durring ragnorork even said Kratos great tragedy is he just goes from relion to religion kills gods. Hes Gor the God Butcher but as protagonist. He destroys goes, leavel the word in ruins then moves onto the next god and world
Hm, time travel is tough to write. The BttF trilogy is lauded for all the things they take into account, but it's never explained how the changes you make in the past _usually_ change the future, but removing Marty and Jennifer from the timeline between 1985 and 2015 didn't change anything in the "now new" 2015. For consistent logic, the 2015 they arrive to in BttF 2 should've had Marty and Jennifer having disappeared 30 years prior in 1985, prompted by Doc's alteration of history.
One I didn't think about as a child, but once I noticed it when I got older, I can't stop thinking about. In Sonic Adventure 2 how the hell did Amy get to Prison Island? When she breaks Sonic out of prison, she says that she caught a ride with Tails, but she was already on the harbor when Tails got there. HOW THE FUCK DID SHE GET THERE!?
@@JoshTigerheart Also, when exactly did Shadow find out that Rouge was a government agent? The fact that he even addresses her as "That government spy Rouge the Bat" (or something like that) implies that her identity and job are public knowledge. If that's the case, it feels like both Shadow and Eggman should've known who she was ahead of time.
@@KeeperOfUntoldDreamsShadow does know. It's established later he has secret information stolen from the government. As for Amy... she was probably already stalking Sonic like always and lied to cover up that she was following him
@@chrismanuel9768 Ugh, I know what's established, my question was why he didn't bring it up sooner and goddammit. Also, yeah, I'm sure Amy WAS stalking Sonic, that still doesn't explain HOW THE FUCK SHE GOT TO PRISON ISLAND!!!
The best/worst zelda paradox that isn't talked enough is the goron vase paradox. When you received that vase you are told that this belonged to that goron's family for 400 years. Then you go back in time for 400 years and give it to his great-something grandfather. So the questions are: where did that vase come from? Where did it dissapear to? And how old was it when you received it? edit: I fixed the number 200 to 400 after someone pointed it out. I didn't remember the exact ammount, not like it changes anything.
Yeah, that one is a weird paradox, the Song of Storms can at least be pinned down to something like Link playing along to the Music Box and accidentally discovering the Song of Storms, but the Goron Vase just kind of exists because of the paradox, it's like the Peach from the show Milo Murphy's Law, they tried to debate its existence and ultimately gave up 😅
They're paradoxes, but not plot holes. The idea of a circle of causality is a common theme in time travel; it even has a name, the "bootstrap paradox". It's a theme of countless stories, and we can't say it's wrong until and unless we start time travelling or prove time travel impossible.
@@MijinLaw Yeah I don't think that one really belongs on the list. It's really not in the same league as "but why not simply send in someone who's immune to radiation?" because it would be mind-breaking to the characters in the game as well. You're not supposed to be able to explain it.
@@MijinLaw All paradoxes would be plot holes. If you can't explain something, it is a plot hole. Paradoxes can not be explained. Not all plot holes are paradoxes. Also there is the obvious proof that time travel doesn't exist. If people could time travel, it would already be happening. Since there is no evidence of time travel in the past or present, obviously nobody can do that. Especially if you consider that the future is effectively infinite, which means effectively infinite time travelers means somebody in the infinite time travelers would try to brag about inventing time travel.
@@Chris_Sizemore You're assuming time travel can go back an infinite duration. If you look at spacetime, that's not the case. With infinite energy you can time travel... to the exact same point in time, but anywhere in the universe. It's less traveling through time and more moving without time. It's impossible to reverse entropy outside of theoretical Einstein-Rosen bridges through the theorized singularity in a black hole. So like... probably not.
Related: logical gaps in games. My sister just showed me a bit of Palia, a free-to-play cozy game. It requires 10 apples to grow 1 tree. That's... not how apples work, lol
I think the important thing to remember about the party in Final Fantasy 8 is that the only one of them who’s an adult is Quistis at 18 years old. Irvine’s not an asshole, he’s just a kid.
The important thing to remember is that the plot of the game was completely thrown aside in favor of developing the characters themselves. They literally give no information about the primary enemy of the game, who they are, why they're doing the thing... There's barely an explanation as to why sorceresses are even a thing.
@@thembill8246 That's not even remotely true, they also really didn't need to give any elaborate explanation about what a sorceress is, it's not exactly a new concept in storytelling that came out of nowhere, you're just overthinking things
@@thembill8246Ultimecia's motivation was in the game. The American localization just cut it out entirely. Twice, even, if you count it getting cut from Dissidia. The only hint of it left in-game is a monologue she breaks into in her boss battle.
Irvine IS telling them about their lost memories in that very scene. He knows they lost their memories and set up a scenario where he can help them all remember.
yeah ff8 is a fail on this list, it is perfectly fine considering they all children and irvine was a recluse, he is introduced as introverted recluse, so yeah he didnt speak up and only started to talk when he got them all into their former orphanage.
@@davidfisher4809 and risk that they change the plan and kill her? for him he was in perfect position not to shoot, and he didnt shoot. and plan B was a failure from the beginning.
@@davidfisher4809He hadn't seen her before then and nobody knew her name. She was the Matron of the orphanage. It's the reason he fails to assassinate her. He sees her face she realizes who she is. That's also when he realizes nobody else remembers her and starts his plan to get everyone to the orphanage to jog their memory. He doesn't know Guardian Forces steal memories.
Final Fantasy 8 amnesia isn't a hole in the plot, it's a Checkov's Gun. It's right there on Squall's classroom study panel that you have access to at the start of the game. "Memory loss is a possible side effect, but this has not been proven as of yet." Obviously, that was going to come up again at some point.
You are TOLD to check the info, that's kind of your homework as the game starts with you preparing for exam lol. There's a lot of extra lore on computer with the whole school festival stuff and Zell vs disciplinary committee things.
I don’t thing the issue was the gf sided affect causing amnesia but more so that the one character who still has his memories doesn’t speak up sooner. Also Cid who created the mercenary school along with his wife who before she became the sorcerer still had his memories. But it seems like the world has amnesia not just the cast. Then there is the whole Laguna flash back and time travel being thrown into it all that.
How about Uncharted 3? One of the main bad guys is teased to be some sort of supernatural being, as he can disappear at will and shrug off gunshot wounds. And then he just dies at the end like some normal dude. The more you look at it, the more clear it is that they rushed the game out and the story suffered.
I won't disagree about the rush, even though I actually enjoyed the story and antagonists, as it's kinda obvious but tbh nothing Talbot does is really impossible for a human being in the Uncharted franchise. The time he does get shot and shrugs it off, you could technically logic out of by assuming he's wearing protective gear under his clothes coupled with game logic or whatever you can think of. Don't get me wrong, he does absolutely give off a weird vibe, but the finished story never leaves concrete proof enough to make this a plot hole. Regardless, it definitely could've been written better, so there's that...
What about all the plot-relevant holes Elizabeth makes in the fabric of reality in Bioshock Infinite ? ...Oh. You meant figuratively. Well I'm sure there are some of those too, no way to avoid them with time travel and/or multiverses.
Can understand why there's an ever growing camp that only deems BioShock 1 and 2 as the prime canon, this nonsense. I'd rather rewatch the Spider-Verse films and Fionna and Cake than replay that sorry overhyped mess of a game lately.
@@firehedgehog1446 Not really. Am just referring to the fact that they did their Multiversal travel tales in a more fascinating and rewatchable manner than whatever bloat BioShock: Infinite did.
9:20 - I haven't seen another comment mention this so just have to say it: Irvine's basketball shot actually has 3 different outcomes depending on how many battles you have won up to that point! Less than 200 wins and he misses the basket, 200-249 and the ball goes straight in like in the video and 250+ the ball runs around the edge of the hoop before going in.
FF8 also had a bootstrap paradox involving the powers of the sorceress originating in the future where you defeat her and going back into the past to cause all of the story events. Alan Wake also had one that the developers went out of their way to call out in a conversation between Alan and Tom the poet. Where they discuss the fact that they both have the ability to write changes into reality and both write changes about the other character, so who wrote whom into existence?
@@chocolatefudgebrowni3225 I was under the impression that was the case. The bit with the old light switch in the first game was found with one of Tom's manuscripts describing it.
Another example of a Bootstrap paradox is with Pokémon Scarlet/Violet, the professor of the game somewhat started their obsession with the paradox Pokémon because after the Indigo Disk dlc, a book said a kid gave him a white book with information about it, said kid being you after you get it helping around getting said information
That's not the case at all. In the DLC we give them Briar's book which has all the information they would want and in return they give us the original copy of the Scarlet/Violet book that inspired them. Now that they have this information they can stop obsessing over Paradox Pokemon and instead go home to take care of Arven.. It just doesn't effect our current timeline but now a new one exists where Arven has a happy upbringing with likely both parents since the other one likely left because the Professor was too obsessive in their research.
On Life Is Strange: I'd say the first rewind wasn't actually a rewind at all but more of a vision in which she gained the power of time reversal. That's why she "wakes up" back in the classroom.
3:49 i appreciate the offhand mental health check. I think as gamers we don't check on each other personally enough. To prevent violent episodes enough. Its okay to talk things out and find respect between each other
The needing money thing at the end gave me an idea: Games we would pretend don't exist for 100 quid. Easy for rest of us, difficult for the oxbox crew because even bad, cliche and boring games can be mined for jokes and trends. So it would be "Here are some games that are somehow so unremarkably bizarre we never talk about them." And, I guess, the corollary video: Games you literally couldn't pay us to shut up about. Again, not necessarily the best games, but ones are the mine from which oxbox extracts UA-cam gold.
Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Invisible War, Star Wars: Rebel Assault I+II, that game about bikers riding to hell and retribution... Kingdoms of Amalur. 'Nuff said.
The way i thought of the Song of Storms is the windmill guy always knew the song. He's just bent out of shape when the Ocarina of Time causes magic shenanigans.
Oh my gosh I'd literally just typed a big answer about the hiding Chloe's dad's keys quest assuming he always finds them and dies but I never realised there was a way to keep him alive! Sorry Chloe...I guess her losing him is maybe the main timeline judging by the prequel though? This is like when I played Dream Daddy and thought every ending with your daughter being a bit awkward was the same but turns out there was a better ending that I missed getting like seven times 😅
On one hand its great for Luke to be pursuing what he is passionate about. On the other hand, if for whatever reason he fails at it, we will probably get Luke back. It’s a win win for everybody. We can be happy for Luke moving forward, and also we are all still here for him to fall back on if things go awry.
The Song of Storms one is a paradox, but not a plot hole. Link learned it from the windmill guy. Then he goes back in time to teach it to the windmill guy so that he'll know it to teach Link's younger self later.
4:45 For the LA Noir one, like you said, the more you think about it, the worse it gets. Particularly when you consider that film cameras in the 1940's were clunky contraptions with film reels set on tripods. The fact that there are multiple filming angles edited together in the recording means that either a) the folks recorded did their speech several times with the the location of the camera changing in between run-throughs, or b) several of those cameras were set up while they spoke. Either way, the implication is that they were well aware they were being filmed, and didn't mind a bit.
This is why I try not to overthink it too much when gaming, or why I like it when games just leave it vague for the players to argue about for ages. That said, we have no real idea how much time has passed between Portal and Portal 2, but it's indicated to be a hell of a long time. Why are all the potatoes in that one section not rotted away to nothing? I can put aside disbelief enough to get how Chell managed to stay alive in suspended animation or whatever, but those potatoes had nothing keeping them from rotting. I'm not even talking about the one that Chell made that grew into a massive plant/tree through the ceiling. Also, I need my routines too, Andy.
@@SimuLord Fair point, lol. I said that as a FromSoftware fan and I know they'll argue about any little detail that they can think of, particularly the Souls fans. I stick to Vaati for my lore needs when it comes to those games.
@@SimuLord Yeah, vague moments can be quite troublesome when fans get ahold of them, especially if they have anything to do with character relationships (though fans will debate stuff like that regardless.)
A theory I have for where the Storm of Time could have come from originally is the music box itself, like if Link was just playing along and stumbled onto the song since it's already what the music box guy is playing 🤔
So to clarify: it's what the music-box-guy was already playing _when Link was young,_ but it didn't become significant until young Link later played the melody _using the Ocarina of Time._ THAT's when it caused the storm, sent the windmill into overdrive and gave music-box-guy a bad memory about it, from which adult Link learned the power of the song.
@@Stratelier Basically, especially since the Song of Storms only has power when played with an instrument with special properties like the Ocarina of Time, and possibly the Fairy Ocarina (depending on how you view it.)
@@homerman76 So basically the paradox started with Young Link playing along to the music box for fun and accidentally causing shenanigans during what is now a broken part of the timeline, because when Adult Link learns the song and travels back in time to INTENTIONALLY drain the well it creates the loop?
What I love about the FF8 one is that people came up with actually great fan theories to explain why it's nonsensical and dumb and the makers of FF8 had to come out and say no it's meant to be taken seriously and is in fact that contrived.
Reminds me of a plot hole from an old PS2 game called Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land. Later in the game, you find out that the queen that you've been taking orders from is a fake, as the real queen has been dead the whole time. However, you find out even later in the game that literally _everyone_ in the game, protagonists included, have been dead the whole time, meaning the queen still has no excuse for being MIA.
Majora's mask fixed the song of storms issue. Link after/during OoT as a child left. Learned the song in Termina, came back and taught it to the windmill guy. Who then taught it to the parallel -ly active link. It's pretty simple as time manipulation stories go.
I liked the idea that it's not necessarily that he actually learned it from link and that's WHY he didn't recognize Link. That plot isn't a time paradox when you put in the idea that Link teaching him is a change in the timeline. It does raise a question of HWO??? but... that's easier to answer.
No. He never returned from Termina. Did you forget that to get to Termina (literally "The End") he was first lost in the Lost Woods (something that is 100% fatal in all cases for Hylians like Link), fell through a magic rift, and ended up in a place between worlds with the Happy Mask Salesman (a man hinted to be a greater deity), and that canonically that iteration of Link is the one that became the Hero's Shade, the ghost of a dead hero of time that got lost in the Lost Woods and never returned to Hylia? Link didn't leave Termina and teach anyone anything. That Link died in the Lost Woods.
@@chrismanuel9768 The devs have straight out debunked that theory, Link returned and became the Hero's shade of Twilight Princess after growing up, since lost children become skull kids. Termina was as in Terminal, since it is the center area of the map. It can also be a reference to it being connected to at least two other worlds as seen when you fight the boss in the Ikana region, the tower was a portal to the world of the ninja like enemies. Also of note is the plane of existence map in the Historia. Termina is a world on the same level as Hyrule not above or below like other worlds Link has travelled to.
@@marhawkman303 I love the theory but there is the issue that as far as we know the only other being who knows the song is the ghost of a musician cursed and bound to a dead land people shy away from in another dimension.
For the life is strange one, I imagine that her intentionally using the power is what enables her to stay in place. The first time she used it was by accident, resulting in everything being reset. Herself included. But every future use of it, she would find that she can remain where she is while everything else rewinds.
I don't think she stays in one place every time though, does she? Like, when she goes back to save Chloe's dad, did that put little baby Max inside some rando's dorm room all of a sudden? It's been forever since I played.
I remember hearing that the reason why the FO 3 ending is like that is that when the game was conceived it was experimental. People tend to forget that before this turn based RPGs and such were far more popular for serious gamers. Bethesda did some focus testing and found out they had a hit on their hands and started making plans for DLC, so where they intended the game to stand alone and end in a nice little package where the hero goes, the DLC plans required them to alter that idea, thus these options were added. Allegedly somehow bringing Fawkes was not even going to be an option. Allegedly both the writer, and some of the voice actors, including Ron Perlman, were not pleased about having contract pulled on them and being made to come back in, and that's why it turned out this way. True or not, it does make sense, and explain the tonal disconnected like with other work done under duress. There are also some stories about how the "Sydney" character was originally planned to be a full on companion (one of the reasons why it's apparently so easy to mod this) but there were legal issues with it. Basically the character is based on Tia Carerre's late night TV character "Sydney Fox" from the show "Relic Hunter". Something that was more obvious at the time as it was closer to the show. The bottom line was that they had a sort of handshake deal with the actress/singer to both voice the character and sing a bit for the game, and that she wanted to do it. That said there were reasons why it never happened, and every version of this rumor is incredibly lurid so I won't go into the whole mess of the different versions I've heard over the years and which seem most likely as it's stuff no one would logically talk about. I've heard it from so many different places that it seems likely at it there is a core of truth. All I can say is that it does seem possible as apparently her career sort of vanished due to bad contracts and legal reasons, beyond getting into all of the sex rumors that follow any pretty girl in that business. People forget she was originally on like "General Hospital" and then was introduced in a bit part for "The A Team" with the intent of her being a regular, but it turned into a one off episode, because "General Hospital" wouldn't let her out of the contract and then didn't use her like they said so she got nothing. She wasn't "discovered for real" until years later with the "Wayne's World" movies but otherwise just did big parts and "also ran" movies some of which were not bad, and many which were terrible, in part because of how her contracts were held. Her voice work on I believe "Lilo and Stich", and TV show (much later) were things she managed to do based on cracks in the contracts or expiration of details. Allegedly the people holding these contracts had something sex related going on with her that made the situation problematic and didn't want to get rid of it, but I have no idea how that would work. Last time I saw her I believe was in "Hawaii 5-0" where she appeared as herself hiring out as singer for a wedding or something. At any rate I mention that whole mess mostly to remind people that there were plenty of stories about FO-3 and issues with the talent. I believe Bethesda was being made out as the bad guy in a lot of it. I'm pretty sure there were other rumors/allegations but those two stick out and the first one is of course the video relevant one. Apparently they were afraid this might turn out like the Fallout Action RPG for consoles at first, so there were no DLC plans, and it was going to be a one off, but that changed after focus testing and the reception from it so as I said... they started cracking the whip over bits they had finished to make sure that could happen and not everyone was happy about it.
No one mentioning the Orphanage in FF8 isn't a plot hole. Spoilers: Squall and party have amnesia due to the summons taking up part of their brains. Squall's missing sister is literally in Garden at the beginning of the game! The one party member who didn't use a summon until the events of FF8 Irvine was embarrassed to ask why none of them had recognised him.
I'm a few Fast & Furii behind, but as I recall Mr. Diesel usually makes a point of driving "American muscle". You'll either need an obscene amount of money to change his mind, or an even more obscene amount to make enough Fast & Furios that everyone forgets he said that.
In FFVIII if any of you had been paying attention a large portion of the plot revolves around the junctioning and over-reliance on GFs that, within the games lore, occupy a physical space in your brain like a tumor and eat away at random parts of your psyche. The main cast struggle to recollect their memories of the orphanage and have to literally piece the memories together by collectively sharing the few bits and pieces they have because those memories, being some of the oldest they have, are what was taken by using the GFs A plothole this is not
Idk, the FF8 entry isn't really much of a plot hole, not only is it easy to forget childhood memories (explaining why that was the first thing to go through high use of the Guardian Forces,) but Irvine also probably didn't want to burden his childhood chums with the reality that they needed to kill their caretaker. It also explains why his role as the sniper was so hard on him since he knew what needed to be done, but didn't know if he had the strength to do it, something he didn't want the others to suffer through. It was fine for the one off mission, since he knew the others had moved on, but by the point of visiting Trabia Garden it was time to come clean since they had grown close again.
@@gregmilne4378 It's my favorite Final Fantasy game, so I've played it a lot and it was cool to recognize this fact when I first put 2 and 2 together myself, glad to have shared 😁
My memory is hazy, but in LiS doesn't she transport back via polaroid? That's a separate power she uses several times later on in the game which results in her teleporting back in time to take over her body, like when she saves Chloe's dad. The point she travels back to is the selfie she took in class like 5 minutes ago. I might be wrong, but I thought that was what was happening
I think the Life Is Strange one is fine. We see her dip into greater abilities later in the game like using photos to transport herself way back in her life, so this is kinda in the same vein of power.
My favourite handwave people use for the L.A. Noire one is the idea that they have the film for "insurance" so that no one can backstab anyone else. Given the relative restraints & hardships involved for the time period, combined with extremely lopsided risk over reward, in conjunction with how Kelso was able to dsicover the reel and very easily play it, this is handwave only makes sense if you don't think about it even a tiny bit. The actual meta reason is clearly that the devs were running short on either time, creative ideas, or both and just shoe-horned in a convenient way for Kelso & the player to learn everything in a 3 minute cutscene.
"The child refused to follow the father's self-less example" gets me every-time, there's quite a gap between not being selfless and not wanting wanting to die pointlessly. Bethedsa just really wanted you to die then got all bitter about you not dying.
"fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine we'll make it so you can actually keep playing the game after the end of the main storyline"
Reading this comment I just keep thinking of Freeza in Dragonball Z Abridged: “Stop that! Stop…not dying!”
And it wasn't even a selfless sacrifice in the first place: by that point in the game your character was probably tearing through Enclave troops like they were tissue paper. If your dad had just opened the door you could have easily wiped out the forces in that water purifier room and saved him.
Classic new DM error.
@@SlothWithShades the railroading DM might as well write a book instead.
The fallout update feels so passive agressive, like the devs got butthurt that you pointed out such an obvious plot hole.
Lol, exactly. It's way more realistic and logical for the heroes to have determined who was the best candidate to perform the task. We're basically chastised for being practical and reasonable 😅
It's Emil Papagliano and I swear he holds some black mail material over Todd Howard and that's how he still gets to keep his job even though he failed as a scenario writer time and time again.
It feels so weird. That plothole could've easily been fixed if they made it so you couldn't bring any companions to the final mission, too.
@@FeCyrineu Yeah, only allowing Lyons and you at the end would've fixed it. Then it's just your typical Bad/Good Karma decision: you or Lyons.
@@Senorcyborg I mean, to be extremely fair, the Bethesda Fallout games are wildly successful. Plot-holes and wonky scenario logic aside. So, I can't blame Todd for wanting to stick to what works.
Fallout 3 was even more nuts than you've noted:
-The super mutantant follower
-The brainwashed and subservient ghoul follower
-The Robot follower
Are all immune to radiation and would all refuse to go in the chamber
I think the issue was the devin in charge of the main story REALLY wanted you to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. It was the big Finale to the story.
But you probably also have other parts of the team writing the companion scenarios and helping to fill out the world.
Presumably either the companion writers weren't told how the game would end or they just simply failed to notice and when it came to put the pieces together the lead writer refused to allow an easy option where the main character doesn't sacrifice themselves or anyone else.
It was fine if you made soemone else die in your place because this is a choice driven game so doing that's the "bad choice". But giving you a choice where no one dies wasn't allowed since that makes the "true ending" where you sacrifice yourself ... kind of stupid
Honestly though ... if they were that insistent on the main character sacrificing themselves then they should have made it so ONLY the main character could do it and the choice would be "sacrifice yourself or everyone dies".
Charon is subservient?
@@w415800 he's been brainwashed to serve if I remember correctly
I feel like the best fix was for it to allow for the player to send any comrade instead of themselves, even those who would die by doing so. It would give bad karma if those sent were to die, but not for those immune; still, those sent would always become the fabled hero in their place if done so
And if i recall you can get Sarah to go into the chamber and the game essentially ends as if you went it.
That damn Fallout one. It's like seeing someone drowning while you're at the beach with Aquaman and being told you're the bad guy for saying he should save them.
Or letting your father die in a tornado trying to save a dog when you can fly faster than a speeding train and are the man of steel.
@@Ylyrra In the case of Superman, it was a matter of Clark still being a kid (comparatively) and not revealing his superhuman abilities to endanger himself and the rest of the town.
@@azuredragoon2054 as many other have pointed out with all the chaos going on litterly no one would have said "hey that fark boy must have used super speed to rescue his dad, he must be this 'superman.' Hell it weakens the message every other pa kent death has (hell justice leage doesnt even kill pa kent) that despite all his powers you cant save everyone when pa kent dies of natural causes. It's a core element of clark being hunbled by death and resolving to save everyone he cant but not letting those he cant save crush his spirit.
@@azuredragoon2054 He didn't need to reveal his abilities. If rescuing the dog was plausibly possible for his dad, it was plausibly possible for superman especially given anyone else around was going to be distracted by their own survival. He didn't need to use any of his visible superpowers.
@@Ylyrra There was literally a crowd watching in that scene.
The Fawkes thing is even more stupid when you remember that earlier in the game and the place you met him in the first place he had to go into a super irradiated place to retrieve the G.E.C.K. because you couldn’t possibly survive in there. And yet he balks at going into a room now and just pushing some buttons and if he does the game mocks you for it.
The game even hurts your feelings during the ending screen as if you let the Lyon's Pride lady get irradiated lol
Seems the developers backed themselves into a corner (story wise) with that one! I have a feeling they "forgot" about Fawkes when it came to the ending so when they wanted the "noble sacrifice" choice/ending they forced it to happen that way which is just bad writing! LOL You can't have a series of good/bad decisions throughout the game that then ends with a "dumb" decision! LOL
How do you get the ending if you don't die that hero's death? I once played through the game with all DLCs and eventually just stopped playing.
@@SailorMyaThat’s some weak writing in a world where radiation and those who are immune to it are central and well-worn parts of the lore.
thats emil pagliarulo's quality lever of writing for fallout franchise. he's slightly better now, but still far from the level of writing for fallout new vegas.
I don't even understand why Fawkes, and apparently the Fallout narrator as well, would consider dying to activate the device to be my destiny in the first place. Nowhere in the game is the act prophesized. There's no actual benefit to doing it myself instead of sending Fawkes, not even in a symbolic or moral sense. If the update simply let you choose Fawkes without being dicks about it, I'd say maybe Fawkes wasn't intended to be there at that point in the game, and they simply didn't have time to record new lines. But because they *did* act like dicks with the insulting narration and the bad karma, I instead have to conclude that the writers have a very messed up idea of what constitutes "heroism".
Fallout 3 story makes no sense at all at times. Like when you finally find dad and he gets on your case for leaving the vault he left you in to keep you safe like you're an ingrate or something - the same vault that you almost got killed in because of your dad and his hijinks.
I think the writers were too engrossed in Big Philosophical Concepts and just ignored everything else lol.
@abadenoughdude300 I just pretend it's the directors cut of Taken filmed in Detroit since ive never seen Taken 😂🥴
@@abadenoughdude300 ah, writing by consignment... NOT committee, IE a head writer lays out a basic framework, and sub-writers do all the detail work.
Those sub-writers... aren't necessarily on the same page as each other OR the head writer.
@abadenoughdude300 That is, when they weren't just ripping off the plot of Fallout 2 wholesale, which is what the bit with the GECK and the Enclave is.
btw Am I the only one who never liked "Dad" and thought his self sacrifice was stupid?
Besides Fawkes players have potentially two other companions who are immune to radiation, Charon the ghoul, and Sergeant RL-3, a Mr. Gutsy robot. So it's especially absurd that the Lone Wanderer MUST sacrifice themselves to get the "good" ending.
The first time I played Fallout 3 I thought having Fawkes around to enter the chamber instead of my character was my good karma reward for my earlier willingness to befriend a Super-Mutant. I was quite taken aback to discover that the game was calling me a coward for not pointlessly committing suicide.
I remember someone mentioning that the game dunks on you for making the smart choice.
And the supermutant who is immune to radiation somehow is a hero. Why? Because you chose to not pointlessly die?
@@CelticVictory Well the mutant did save the day, I guess, so he would be considered a hero.
@@zachtwilightwindwaker596 True, but then they add "And the protagonist didn't kill himself pointlessly like he should have." Crisis averted, and I'm the dick for making a good decision?
I think radiation does actually fuck with electronics. People cleaning up the Chernobyl site had cameras with fresh batteries, and those things died fast, and they used robots to gather debris and even those started going haywire.
Still doesn't excuse Charon not going in.
As someone who had to go to therapy for their anger, Kratos is spot on. You do lose sight of what made you so angry in the first place and indulge in rage
I really disliked those classes and sessions. The mediator and therapist kept asking the same questions and making the same assumptions.
It was VERY upsetting.
That's why I don't engage with people unless absolutely necessary.
Fear will do that to you
@@Logan7281Xso anger management made you angry? Generally that's the idea, so you can learn to manage and realize it's only upsetting because you let it be upsetting, or actually enjoy "indulging in anger" as the OP said, or tracing your anger back to its root fear, etc.
I haven't played god of War myself so I could be way off, but just listening to the description of the events, that sounds much less like a plot hole and much more like an intentional part of the narrative, showing you how Kratos' priorities have changed and how he's let his anger warp his perspective - or maybe revealing he already had rage in his heart and was subconsciously using their deaths as justification for acting on it.
Like I said! I don't have the full story lol. But it sounds like it could be more intentional than a fluke
@@drawingdragon Don't think you are far off, it is clear throught his story, that he might have used every excuse. If I remember correctly, he became the subordinate of Ares because he wanted to gain power in order to win battles with his army. Also, due to his upbringing, he was destined to be filled with anger, being trained to be a soldier in every aspect of life
My favorite part avour the Fallout 3 plot hole is that its not just Fawks that risks nothing by entering the chamber. Both Charon and RL-3 risk nothing by doing it as well
I was literally just about to comment the same thing lol
And Charon doesn't care about morality so there shouldn't be the morality problem brought up by fawkes (telling you it's your destiny and he wouldn't rob you of that) Charon would do it without question
@@KingAwesome-lx5te as would RL-3 being a... you know military robot programmed to follow orders
Sharon won't do it be cause he follows his contract to a T. It's why he doesn't kill his previous contract holder until the contract exchanges to your hand.
@@nthetiteGHOST You just explained why Charon should do it instantly without question, not why he ''won't do it''.
That LA Noir entry is so much better if you just imagine one guy sprinting on one side of the table to the next just to make a new shot hes really committed even though half the conversation is out of context now 😂😂🥴
I like to imagine it was a guy doing it secretly with giant hidden cameras... But he's also narcissistic so he needs his whistle to be the best thing you've ever watched.
I think a lot of people miss the point for that specific moment in GOW 2. It's the reason why Kratos is so focused on teaching Atreus to control his anger because he lost control of himself to anger in the original trilogy. His rage is what led him to prioritize his vengeance over his family once he had the golden opportunity to save them.
When the dev were asked why he didn't save his family instead, their response were "He was too angry." He was blinded by rage.
It's also safe to say that he have already accepted their death at the beginning of GOW 2. That's why he simply continued his conquest for Sparta as the God of War.
I also imagine that manipulating the Loom of Fate was rather difficult, it seems like he has to put a lot of strength into going back in time, so it might not have been much of an option for him to go THAT far back anyways (especially since he kind of just enters into that moment rather than actually being able to prevent his own death.)
I remember some making-of content back in the day, not sure if it was about GOW 1 or 2, but there was a quote where people were apparently supposed to "come to work pissed off", because rage was basically Kratos' entire personality at that point. So yeah, it makes total sense that he was too consumed by it to make any rational decision. I mean, in the third game he all but brought about the apocalypse in his quest for revenge (only in Greece, as we learn in the newer games, but still). He wasn't one for level-headed action.
Another aspect people seem to forget is Gaia appearing before Kratos after Zeus has killed him and telling him that she and the other Titans would help Kratos defeat Zeus. From that first meeting she was manipulating Kratos throughout God of War II to get what she wanted. As she then says in God of War III:
_”I saved you to serve the titans.”_
_”Listen carefully, Kratos. _*_You were a simple pawn, nothing more._*_ Zeus is no longer your concern. This is our war. Not yours.”_
"He was too angry" yeah lmao. It's obvious the writers didn't think of this plot hole and made up BS excuses. They wanted to milk this franchise dry. That's why they moved on with other pantheons.
@insertname9736 yea, like people don't get so angry that they lose themselves to their anger and do things that they later regret. That's so unrealistic and terrible writing
Charon is literally brainwashed to follow the owner of the contract and he STILL doesn't activate the purifier without the DLC.
Let's not forget RL-3 which not only REQUIRES neutral karma to get (making the stupid sacrifice break all role-playing tied into being a neutral character) is also immune to radiation and programmed to FOLLOW ORDERS
@@Dovah_Slayer shit i forgot him as well, but never used him anyway, my go to companion was always Charon
@@leonidas6296 Same, that ghoul was always my favorite.
@@leonidas6296 Same, that ghoul was always my favorite.
Love how his excuse is "I'm not your errand boy." Like sorry my guy but you literally are.
"more suspicious than a completely empty browser history"
I will use that one
And no one will know where you got the line from because you’ll clear this video from your browser history
@@toratio8547 the perfect crime
we'll know. i have screenshot. paper trail. lawyered...
"I shot myself" "Stupid gun" Yep, that's about the level of personal responsibility you'd expect.
I love Chloe but she does repeatedly make really stupid decisions that she just expects Max to rewind time for! Still Bae over Bay though
Chloe is the worst, I easily chose to save the town.
Shooting at a metal target and not realizing that ricochet is a thing. Personally speaking, this is why I don’t mess with steel targets at the range. Steel targets make me very nervous because of the ricochet risk.
Well, that explains why they gave her blue hair xD
The plothole that still bugs me after all these years is that the first Resident Evil never gives you the canon ending. Chris, Rebecca, Jill, Barry all survive, and are all in subsequent media (Rebecca less so in games, but the CGI movies are canon). So how come no ending exists where they all survive? The remake didn’t even fix it.
Really?? I could have SWORN I remembered them all making it in the remake.... damn must be one of those Mendala thingies
Describing Heavy Rain as "Sad Dad Misery Simulator 2010" made me laugh so much I had to pause the video for a moment. Exceptional work as always. 👏
That's not what he said
Heavy Rain has a *lot* of unexplained plot holes, but this one is definitely a good example of David Cage's philosophy of "Think of stuff that sounds cool first, then just jam it all together and pray that it makes sense."
Nah. I don't think he even prayed it would make sense lol
No they had some significant cut plot points in the game. For example Ethan having a psychic link to the Oragami Killer which explains his blackouts and the flashbacksZ
@@emberfist8347True, but even the more grounded storylines suffered from a lack of a solid framework. It was cool moments but in the overall story narrative, it doesn't make sense.
Honestly they could have just made it an odd stress disorder. Replace we're he walks to or make him coincidentally from the same place it all started. And boom... Kinda fixed while keeping the "is he a skitzo killer?" Aspect.
The god of war II entry isn’t really a plot hole but a case of Tragic Irony. Vengeance has come to define him so much that he can’t think to undo the cause but instead continue. It makes perfect EMOTIONAL sense which is why it doesn’t make “logical” because never forget we emote we feel before we think.
That was my thoughts he was so blinded by his vengeance that he never thought about the possibilities
I agree I believe he was so blinded by vengeance and anger at the very thought of just fixing it never crossed his mind or that he was so pinpoint focused that everything outside of vengeance didn't matter initially and by the time he even realized that this was a possibility something in the new God of wars kind of hinted on is that magic or whatever it's tied to the land. by the time he killed Zeus and all that the land was dying so he probably did not even have the option to change it at that point it's too late@@Joyful_Traitor
Fair. It does mean that a very strategic enemy who wanted to hurt Angry Kratos could arrange for someone _else_ to attack/betray/kill Angry Kratos immediately afterwards so his vengeance would be too focused on that _second_ offense to get back to dealing with the first. (Alternate universe time!)
You could also say that all the timelines in which he does go back in time to save his family result in alternate timelines that aren't part of the games' canon. If he goes back to save his family none of the events happen that result in him being able to go back in time to save his family, which means his family gets murdered again, which sets in motion the events that lead to him being able to go back in time to save his family, etc.
It's also why in horror movies characters make dumb decisions. Whenever an emotion becomes powerful enough to overcome you it causes your prefrontal cortex to shut off. The prefrontal cortex is where you do all of your critical thinking.
The example of Fallout 3 is what I like to call being pragmatic. Why pointlessly sacrifice yourself when you can just get Fawkes to do it instead. Unfortunately the game calls you a coward if you take this option.
The writers definitely got fixated on this stupid "grand sacrifice" angle of the ending not taking into account whether or not it actually makes sense it should go this way the sacrifice is the overly heroic one the neutral ending is you sending a radiation immune companion in (the ending slide should reflect that you avoided needless sacrifice and chose your own destiny) and the bad ending is sending in Sarah Lyons or any non radiation immune follower and the game rightly chastises you for going that route
Unsurprisingly in both Fallout and New Vegas you were able to be pragmatic and reason your way out of major plot points without any sacrifice.
Edit: unsurprisingly because those were under obsidian.
It is the developers that do that, let's be real. They are dumbasses who could not figure out a better reason for it, like toxins come out that are deadly to anyone who goes in there...
They made a bad choice and they will defend it to their grave.
I love Grand sacrifices, specially in moments to let others escape.
But like... It's kind of stupid to put on a bomb vest to open a door when you have a key...
The FF8 thing. Irvine's relationship with Edea is why he has problems pulling the trigger on her during the assassination mission back in Disk 1. People like to point at the failed assassination attempt as an example of Irvine being terrible but they forget its relevance when the discussions of the orphanage are brought up. Rather convenient, that.
All of his orphan friends were still together but NONE of them mentioned or remembered him. He thought he was unimportant to them, not worth remembering. It's not that he was being rude to them, he was returning the energy he thought they were giving him. Once the issue is resolved things change within the group to some degree.
The thing about GFs causing amnesia is actually brought up in various places throughout the game, but the majority of it in codex-style logs in the menu. Can't really blame people for missing that one tbh.
Yeah, you can disagree on whether it was a good plot, but it was explained.
This still does not really explain the plot hole. First off you start the game already a student of seed but have to clear the first dugeon to contract your first GF, so even if the gf's coincedenly chose to erase all the same memories, the main characters still went to school with out recognising each other before they lost their memories. So either the issue with memory loss is irelevant becuse the part would recognise each other anyways or its still a plot hole.
@@Prinygod Technically, you start with two school supplied GFs before going after Ifrit: Quetzelcotl and Shiva. Also each of the Gardens has a specialty with Balamb's being use of GFs and junctioning magic to stats via the GF. Trabia's was focused on researching and casting magic meaning they also probably used GFs to a degree, and Galbadia's was weapons combat and military strategy. Of the three, Galbadia is the only one that doesn't use GFs as part of the curriculum.
The implication is that the reason that Squall and the others would have used GFs regularly during training prior to the SeeD exam qualifier which would lead to their memories being more heavily eroded simply as a result of which Garden they happened to be enrolled in. None of this, however, is explicitly stated in game unless you go hunting for blurbs and then make the logical deduction that leads to the imlication from those blurbs. So its a plot hole if you don't go on a lore hunt, but it's a fairly minor one if you do. Frankly, FFVII has bigger plot holes and plot cul-de-sacs than FFVIII.
I would argue a bigger plot hole revolves around how Rinoa is kind of unneccessary even as far as the whole Sorceress inheritance thing is concerned on top of the whole 'oh our parents had a doomed romance that was never fulfilled so isn't it ironic that we, their children, end up together' plot thread. Allow me to elaborate. So, as mentioned above, Trabia Garden specialized in magic and Selphie attended there right up until she transferred over to take the SeeD qualification. This is reflected by her base magic stats which are even higher than Rinoa's base magic stats.
Selphie is set up, stat wise, to be the best candidate to inherit the powers of the Sorceress and the only reason she isn't is mainly because someone at Square thought the Squall-Rinoa love story was more important than the story about the amnesiac childhood friends being reunited and needed to justify keeping her around. The main problem with the love story is that Squall barely tolerates Rinoa up until disc 3 when the plot needs him to run off with her comatose body to advance the story and he suddenly contracts feelings out of nowhere. There is no build up to their relationship. He doesn't come across in the dialogue as hating her, mind you, but he doesn't come across as liking her much either. He seems neutral at best and mildly annoyed by her at worst.
This is a translation issue above all else. Japanese has suffixes that, when attached to a person's name, indicates the degree of formality or casualness one regards that person with as well as the degree of emotional distance or comfort on feels towards that person. English does not and there is no real way to communicate that linguistic subtext while keeping conversations natural. I've never played the Japanese version nor have I read a translated script that leaves those suffixes in. I don't know if it works better in Japanese than it does in English or other languages. I just know it doesn't work well in English which makes Rinoa's presence past Timber a plot hole and a pretty bad one at that.
The sad fact is that, in English, the game plot works fine without Rinoa past Timber and with Selphie taking over as Sorceress Successor. Instead of the love story, it could be old friendships rekindled that pull Squall out of his shell. Heck, he could even be as gay for Seifer as certain elements of the fanbase remain convinced he is and it would be less awkward if a romance was absolutely necessary for the plot to work. But the romantic element isn't necessary at all. When your story works just as well without a romantic plot line as it does with one, that implies the romance isn't needed for the story to work. It's just there because the writer(s) want a romance. When the romance hurts the story with it's inclusion then it's a directing/editing failure because somebody needed to give the writer(s) who wanted the romance a firm 'no' and stuck to it. ....No, I'm not studying to be a writer or anything! Why do you ask!?
Irvine was good in the assassination, just nervous due to the high stakes. The shot was perfect and would have gone through Edea's skull if she hadn't magically formed a shield for it to ping off.
@Prinygod As it is also explained in the codexy area of the menu, Balamb Garden specifically trains its students in the use of GFs while the other two (Trabia and Galbadia Gardens) do not. Squall is able to grab two right out of his computer. The mission to obtain Ifrit is different in that he has to earn this one, it is not given to him as a part of his studies.
During the scene in Trabia Garden ruins, Selphie explains that prior to joining Balamb Garden, she had encountered and Junctioned an un-named GF, giving this as the reason she could not remember Irvine when they met up at Galbadian Garden. In fact, Balamb Garden exclusively training with the GFs is why they have the line about Selphie and the unknown GF in that scene to begin with.
The GFs do not choose what memories are erased. It's just general long-term memories that are lost. Again, it's all there in the game if you choose to look for it. Most just don't.
Honestly, anything involving time travel is going to create plot holes if the writers don't stick to the rules about how it works in their fiction. Look at all of the plotholes in Sonic 06's story, for example
I can't be the only one who would prefer not to look at sonic 06 at all
Better yet, don't. Trying to make sense out of any Sonic game is a lost cause.
I've rarely seen time travel done well and consistently. You either duplicate yourself in an another timeline or if there's only one timeline then you create a paradox.
@@101Lunga I think the series D A R K did it pretty well: 2 orchestrated timelines in a kind of figure 8 loop, that kept repeating over and over and over again. But, as with all things that repeat over and over, the smallest, tiniest thing might change and suddenly derail into a 3rd loop, which is a one-time chance that can then be used to unravel everything and return to one timeline, before the events of the 2 loops happen. And then the future plays out as intended.
To be fair, Sonic 06 was a rushjob by the devs being forced to have it released by the holiday season... they had no time to iron anything out, including the story and its script
I always took the Life is Strange one to be that because it was Max's first time using it, she unintentionally took herself (and everything) back in time. Subsequent uses were like her body had adjusted to it (even if a subconscious thing) so allowed her to stay there.
Probably bollocks but works for me...
Nah that works in my book. Plus, she actually gets in other places after using it one too many times, albeit in places were the fabric of time and space is quite janky
Yeah, it was done in panic, unexpectedly, and suddenly.
We see later when she's panicking that time starts to unravel. Her fear makes her lose control. Future games in the series literally establish that fear and anger interfere with people's powers, and that only taking control of your own emotions will guide you.
Also saving Chloe is the only acceptable ending. Giving in to guilt and condemning yourself to a lifetime of PTSD and guilt and sorrow knowing you could save someone you love in order to prevent... damage to a town that results in no deaths and only a lot of confusion?
Save Chloe. They can rebuild. The "heroic" sacrifice ending is guilt laden bullshit.
@@chrismanuel9768 Rebuild? Most people in town are dead if you go for the save Chloe ending. You can let one person die, or let everyone in town die.
@@chrismanuel9768I always thought the assumption was that most of the characters die since we don’t see anyone anymore in the ending that Chloe survives. Unless there is more stuff in the sequels that I haven’t played, it’s implied that a lot of the NPCs you knew died
Or she's way more powerful than she thinks she is and doesn't know how to use her powers entirely.
Or it could just be a hole, lol, who knows.
Vin Diesel isn't dying because Sean Bean is in the cast.
Plot twist, he's the only one who makes it.
@@DemstarAus after he goes back in time to save himself and avenge his death
@@mattyt1961 Only for a third iteration to come up and fail to save the pair, leading to Sean Bean dying three times in a single movie.
He has to one up Goldeneye where he died twice.
@@azuredragoon2054 Then shocking twist is the the bad guy who they kill at the end is Sean Bean's evil twin... (cue dramatic music)
Also, the word "family" has superpowers.
The LA Noire one is especially funny when you realize how inefficient and complex any set of film equipment had to be in those days. Now you can do it on anyone's phone but in the 1940s you'd need at least three massive cameras, a whole tree of huge microphones, a good hundred technicians and tons of stage lights. Not to mention the coordination would probably take at least a day. Quite the effort, just to risk exposing their own nefarious scheme.
"Guys....what if we film ourselves talking abut this plan?"
"...why?"
"it would help as a reminder and a momento, and it'd be fucking cool."
"okay I trust you."
I'm guessing it was originally supposed to be a cutscene, which then got hastily turned into a piece of evidence due to the game's production challenges. Still very stupid!
The really clever thing about the Song of Storms originating in a bootstrap paradox is that the song itself is an infinite loop, with no actual beginning or end.
I was thinking it's a paradox on purpose. A better question is, why didn't the Song of Storms stop the Windmill from turning? Once the well was drained why didn't Link just play it again to stop it?
I would propose that maybe it was invented/found in the defeated timeline, but far too late to be of use, and that started the 2 victorious Child and Adult timelines. We never actually experience the defeated timeline in Ocarina after all, we only see the Adult and Child Victory timelines because we win in the adult timeline and then are sent back to the Child to prevent it from ever happening.
The defeated link presumably discovered it in some obscure place we never actually go to, but it took so much time that he could no longer beat Ganon for some reason. However, by traveling back in time with the future knowledge, he now is creating a whole new timeline in the future where he had future knowledge back in the past. However, the Defeated link is connected to the original timeline where there is no future knowledge applied in the past, and thus ends up being unable to beat Ganon because he doesn't have access to all the tools he needs. But of course, by obtaining future knowledge and bringing it to the past, he creates the first new branched timeline, the altered future, which is the one we end up in, where we can now do things like learn the song of storms from the windmill keeper. This allows us to actually win creating the victorious adult timeline, which in turn allows us to finally go to the past for good, thus finally creating the third branch , the child victory branch were Ganondorf's plans are foiled before they even begin.
@@anialator1000000 I believe link wrote the magical version by listening to the windmill song and trying to accompany him in the original loop, then went back in time after finding out it drained the well as an adult when the cave is sealed.
Axually 🤓 the song of storms was created by a pair of brothers you meet (their ghosts at least) in Majora's Mask. So it's possible for link to come back to Hyrule after the events on Termina, and teach the song to the windmill guy
The biggest plot hole in this example is: How the heck does, literally, making it rain cause a well to DRAIN!
I do like that the Irvine thing explains some of his earlier behaviour though, because his ONE job was to snipe the sorceress early on but he couldnt do it and at the time it just seemed like he was a terrible sniper but with the context of his memories suddenly it makes sense that he couldnt bring himself to assassinate his beloved matron
That's an amazing observation I'd never considered!
This is brought up in the original Japanese as well as the written story of the game, but isn't explicitly mentioned in the English translation. They left it as subtext for second playthroughs. Unfortunately nobody played through a second time apparently 😂
@@chrismanuel9768People probably would have a better time with a remake of this game... But a Dead Space type for remake, not an FF7 remake 😅
IIRC there was also some material meant for FF8 that didn't make it in because of time restraints, so maybe they could add that as well.
@@chrismanuel9768 translation inaccuracies plague a lot of Japanese games but in this case it's tons of mischaracterization too, English Squall acts all edgy but original version had him as really insecure and constantly apologizing instead of answering everything with ...Whatever.
Irvine being hired to kill the woman who raised him is probably the best plot point in the the entire game; naturally nothing is done with it.
don't forget the headmaster of Balamb is Edea's husband. He would have been involved in the contract to kill his wife.
@@calvinbarnes1721 yeah, my wife, a known sorceress, decided to train people to kill sorceresses one day, i always though it was a bit weird...
Except he gets too nervous to pull the trigger. Could that be due to conflicted feelings? He says it happens all the time, but that could be a lie; after all, if it were the truth, there would be no reason for him to be selected.
@@sean437 but thats not a big character moment, thats just reason to stretch the plot out.
Not to mention the memory loss thing is never really mentioned again and seems to only exist to provide an explanation for such a dumb plot twist. Sacrificing power for memories sounds like an interesting plot point and yet nothing is really done with it
The thing about Irvine (FF8) actually kind of makes sense. The man struggles with anxiety, hard, and it's not made *super* clear in the scene where he's been hired to assassinate the Sorceress, but when he sees who she is, he has a complete nervous breakdown and can't pull the trigger, at first. No one else understands why, and they never explicitly stated it, but it's hinted, strongly, that it's because he recognizes the woman who raised him, even if the others did not, and just couldn't do the deed. That anxiety probably also translates to social situations and conversational confrontations, meaning he wasn't annoyed with the others, just afraid to bring to their attention their apparently forgotten shared backstory.
also, right after he is introduced, the first thing he does after Martine leaves is make a joke and then walk over as if they're old friends, at which point everyone walks right past him to discuss the plan, and then act like they've never met him. he tried to talk to Selfie on the train and starts talking about fate bringing them together, but everyone thinks he's being a perv. so he stops trying
@@christopherbowers7236 Yeah, that's also an obviously intentional portrayal of how he's *tried* to bring up their shared backstory. Good catch!
Also the use of GF blanks their past memories
@@arielcervantes5378 True! I was specifically discussing important context that was missed by the video, but yeah, this is absolutely why his friends don't remember anything about him, Edea, or the orphanage
I remember a few more plot holes in Heavy Rain. One of them is Madison's reaction to finding out the killer's identity. The player knows who it is but Madison doesn't, the name would mean nothing to her. Another one is when she remarks that Norman Jayden is the only one they can trust, even though she has never interacted with him throughout the story.
And the Tiny details with the identity of the Killer, that makes no sence when you Think for just one second. Yasus I laughed so Hard when I Saw where they went.
Yep. Those always bothered me. Plus:
- Based on how it's shot, how did Jason die? Ethan took the hit from both the car and the ground.
- The entire typewriter arc with Lauren and Scott is one big miss when you think about it. From why Scott even introduced the typewriter evidence to begin with, how did Scott kill Manfred when the player was controlling him, to how Lauren got the listing from the office when she never had access to that office. That was just a poorly written and edited scene that should have been reworked.
@@GAshoneybear This is a game that could benefit from a remake. Tightening up the story, maybe replacing the voice actors and introducing the graphics engine and mechanics from Detroit as well.
@liveac3694 100% agree. The premise was solid, and people liked the game. They could do supernatural and realistic versions to maximize fanbases. Someone who is a more supernatural fan could their game version focus more on Ethan and Scott and have all the blackout/telepathic arc added back into the game. Whereas someone who is more of a detective/mystery game fan would their version focus more on Madison and Jaden without the supernatural elements, but flesh out their story arcs more.
@@GAshoneybearYou actually don't control Scott at the moment he kills Manfred. It happens during a cutscene where all the clocks go off and start chiming.
The real question would be why did Scott think to himself about going to look what's taking Manfred so long after he had killed him?
"I'm going to do it anyway, because I need my routines otherwise I get all anxious" was too damn real 😂
The plot hole that bothered me the most was in the Borderlands 3 when you actually play as a siren. The story literally revolves around the destiny of sirens and there you are, right in front of one of the other SIX sirens in the universe and they treat you just the same as some former soldier or roguish Vault Hunter.
Lol yeah but let's be real here, Borderlands 3's writing was just terrible in general. I mean:
-Literally everything about Ava
-But especially Ava being promoted to captain at the end despite the fact that she got Maya killed by being immature, impulsive and reckless, never owns up to her mistake, blames everyone else and never experiences even the slightest character growth AND there being any number of adult characters that are overwhelmingly more qualified
-The game treats you, some newbie who just recently showed up, as if you're the Crimson Raider's #1 soldier and even designates Brick, Mordecai and Tiny Tina as "the B team" even though they're all longtime veterans of the group and in the second game you were literally treated as a recruit who was eventually introduced to the legacy characters as these major members of the team who were all had significant roles to play and that you were only introduced to as you actually earned your place in the group. Why were they suddenly sidelined and demoted?
-The Calypsos motives are stupid. Like... they literally could have had the sister (don't even remember their names honestly) end up having her mind corrupted by an entity within the vault when she first came in contact with it... but instead, no, they're actually just some kids having a hissy fit because their dad was too overprotective because he didn't want his daughter being hunted down for being a siren... and because of that they just decide to turn into remorseless psychotic murderers. Like.... I guess it could happen but it doesn't make them very compelling characters, it just makes them more irritating than they already were.
Like idk if we can call anything in that game a plot hole because that implies there's parts of the plot that actually make any kind of sense.
you also get that chastising in fallout 3 if you send sergeant rl-3 (the neutral radiation immune companion) or charon (the evil radiation immune companion) which means you get to be chastised by sending not 1 but 3 different companions
And I thought the most illogical thing in L.A. Noir was the lack of air pollution for the time period the game is set in.
The smog didn't get super bad until the 60s-80s. LA Noire is set in the 40s.
To me the most annoying and preachy part was when in a few murder cases you have to pick the guys that evidence points against just because game claims they're worse off for society. You're ONLY allowed to get perfect score for framing innocents because you don't like them.... Realistic police work, hey!
I love the idea that conspirators having a secret meeting to discuss the most devious things, are completely nonchalant about multiple cameramen in their faces walking around their table with what would have been very large and noisy old film cameras.
“More suspicious than a completely empty browser history” is great lol
Bonus points for that Fallout 3 plothole: just *before* you're given the "choice", you have to fight Colonel Autumn... who just a few hours earlier in the game *survived* this exact scenario.
If he survived before because of some unknown chem he injected - why doesn't he have more of it now (since he's planning to activate it himself) for you to loot off his corpse? Or for him to give you if you convince him to stand down?
Whole ending was just a complete trainwreck that makes no sense.
Because the radiation wasn’t as bad yet. Dr. Li explain the purifier’s purge vents were damaged in the final battle for the Jefferson Memorial which is why it will explode if it isn’t activated. The lab thus became significantly more radioactive than Autumn had intended.
@@emberfist8347 except it says nothing of the sort as far as how much radiation is present - you can check the game transcripts.
The vents *are* damaged in the fighting, so the *pressure* is building, which is why you need to activate it now, but nothing is said about how much radiation is in there compared to before - merely that it's a lethal dose.
To quote Doctor Li:
"There's pressure building up in the holding tanks. It needs to be released now, or else the whole facility could explode. To release the pressure, you're going to have to turn the purifier on. Do you understand me? It has to be turned on NOW. If I'm reading this right, I'm afraid there are lethal levels of radiation inside the chamber. I'm sorry. I wish there were some other way, but there's just no time. It has to be done now, or the damage will be catastrophic."
Nothing about more radiation than Autumn intended.
@@EnderPryde Why would there be so much pressure? Probably because damaging the vents caused an uncontrolled nuclear reaction like what caused the Chernobyl explosion.
@@emberfist8347 you are trying to backfill a plothole with fanon - again, there is no text in game that says such a thing.
@@EnderPryde You mean that the *purge vents* designed to purge radiation were damaged as mentioned in the game?
No mention of Max in Life Is Strange being able to stop the magical equivalent of Sharknado (but with less wildlife and more "nuke life") that was CREATED by her abusing her power.... by further abusing her power? And we don't even get an explanation of WHY she's allowed to break the time limit that she's had since the start of the game.
I can understand that the universe stops trying to fix itself once Max goes back and lets Chloe die, but I have no idea why it decides the storm is the last thing it's gonna try to fix things. If I were Max or Chloe I'd be worried that the actual apocalypse is the next thing I'd have to worry about. There's no reason to think that this is it for the universe's self correcting.
@@weneedaladder8384 Max can't abuse her power if she (and the rest of the state) don't exist anymore.
That's the only part of that that makes sense.
Its why Bae is THE ONLY ENDING. ONLY ENDING.
NO MY EMOTIONAL WOUNDS ARE NOT REOPENING, BAE LIVES! CHLOE LIVES!
@@weneedaladder8384 I've only read a few issues, but doesn't the comic set in the "save Chloe" timeline establish that time does in fact keep going wonky? I don't remember if it's still attributed to the same reasoning as the storm, though.
@@deadersurvival4716 that would make sense if Max dies, but she doesn't in the Bae over Bay ending. The sacred timeline just... gives up, i guess. And somehow Max knew that would happen after only 5000 or so deaths.
Fun thing with Fallout 3: People always bring up Fawkes, but there are also two other companion options that could also freely activate the Water Purifier with zero harm to themselves, who also refuse to do so for various BS reasons without Broken Steel installed: Charon, the ghoul mercenary from the Ninth Circle bar, and Sergeant RL-3, a Mister Gutsy robot.
yeah I was thinking about that. "Fallout has Robots. Why not use a robot?"
@@marhawkman303 Radiation can fry robots.
@@roguishpaladin maybe... maybe not.. lead shielding and stuff.
The robot I could understand he is not as maneuverable as a human
But Charon not only does he have fingers but he is contracted to do whatever you want no matter what
OMG I just recently finished LA NOIRE and I had the same problem! I kept asking “who the hell recorded these idiots chatting about their crimes?” THANK YOU! Because I played it so many years after the fact i was wondering if I was alone in this! Thankfully I am not. Lol
This was also well before the days of small, quiet hidden cameras, too. You'd think they'd notice.
I 100%ed the game and i never even noticed this but its so damn obvious now that i know its there! I have so many questions now lol
before we start this meeting, who is that over there? "oh thats just bob, he's setting up the six movie cameras, each larger than a human being. that will record this meeting for posterity" 'uh...is that wise? what if-" "RIGHT ROLL 'EM BOB!" * clackackackACKACKACKACKAKCKAKCKACKKCKKACKACKACKCKCKCKCKCKCKCKC*
@@daviddaugherty2816 I imagine the same scene playing out but everyone is speaking as loud as they can to make up for the loud ass whirr of the camera! “OKAY LETS GET BACK TO WORK…” “WAIT WHAT DID HE SAY?” “I THINK HE CALLED YOU A JERK?!” “DO I KNOW HOW TO TWERK?!” 🤣
When Mike broke not recognizing Andy 😂
The biggest Plothole I recently discovered was in Prince of Persia - the Lost Crown : the Protagonist goes back in time at a certain point, to save another character who died earlier and succeeds. But even though he time travelled, nothing else was rewritten so other characters aka bosses killed on the way to time travelling stay dead and changes he did in the Environment, also stay. This really bugs me somehow.
That's so disappointing for a franchise that's famous for a time travel narrative. Yet another reason not to play that game, lol.
I forgot that my sister voiced Sarah Lyons in Fallout 3. I was listening to this while working and got really confused for a second.
That's incredibly funny actually
Last name checks out
Lmao
That's pretty cool! Wish I personally knew a va.
Over 100 comments on this channel alone? Sure you did bud. At least you finally got that attention you wanted
With Kratos, the point is that he chooses not to save them. The whole narrative is about him getting more and more blinded by vengeance and hatred to the extent that he loses sight of what set him down that path to begin with. In that moment he falls further than he ever had up to that point by forgetting his family in favor of his hatred of Zeus.
like the entire series ends with the greek gods dead, and the crustian god on the horizon and kratons basicaly saying "hes next." Hell the devels durring ragnorork even said Kratos great tragedy is he just goes from relion to religion kills gods. Hes Gor the God Butcher but as protagonist. He destroys goes, leavel the word in ruins then moves onto the next god and world
GoW2 isn’t a plot hole, Kratos is so driven by vengeance nothing else enters his mind
Or he's just an a-hole using his family as an excuse to do what he loves best: killing gods
It is a plot hole with a BS explanation that he was just angry.
I love how so many of these involve some sort of time travel
Hm, time travel is tough to write.
The BttF trilogy is lauded for all the things they take into account, but it's never explained how the changes you make in the past _usually_ change the future, but removing Marty and Jennifer from the timeline between 1985 and 2015 didn't change anything in the "now new" 2015.
For consistent logic, the 2015 they arrive to in BttF 2 should've had Marty and Jennifer having disappeared 30 years prior in 1985, prompted by Doc's alteration of history.
One I didn't think about as a child, but once I noticed it when I got older, I can't stop thinking about. In Sonic Adventure 2 how the hell did Amy get to Prison Island? When she breaks Sonic out of prison, she says that she caught a ride with Tails, but she was already on the harbor when Tails got there. HOW THE FUCK DID SHE GET THERE!?
Or another one, the Master Emerald was shattered in a desert. How did shards wind up in a sewer underneath the city or in the mountains?
@@JoshTigerheart Also, when exactly did Shadow find out that Rouge was a government agent? The fact that he even addresses her as "That government spy Rouge the Bat" (or something like that) implies that her identity and job are public knowledge. If that's the case, it feels like both Shadow and Eggman should've known who she was ahead of time.
@@KeeperOfUntoldDreamsShadow does know. It's established later he has secret information stolen from the government.
As for Amy... she was probably already stalking Sonic like always and lied to cover up that she was following him
@@chrismanuel9768 Ugh, I know what's established, my question was why he didn't bring it up sooner and goddammit.
Also, yeah, I'm sure Amy WAS stalking Sonic, that still doesn't explain HOW THE FUCK SHE GOT TO PRISON ISLAND!!!
plot twist: amy's an udnrcover gun agent
The best/worst zelda paradox that isn't talked enough is the goron vase paradox.
When you received that vase you are told that this belonged to that goron's family for 400 years.
Then you go back in time for 400 years and give it to his great-something grandfather.
So the questions are: where did that vase come from? Where did it dissapear to? And how old was it when you received it?
edit: I fixed the number 200 to 400 after someone pointed it out. I didn't remember the exact ammount, not like it changes anything.
Yeah, that one is a weird paradox, the Song of Storms can at least be pinned down to something like Link playing along to the Music Box and accidentally discovering the Song of Storms, but the Goron Vase just kind of exists because of the paradox, it's like the Peach from the show Milo Murphy's Law, they tried to debate its existence and ultimately gave up 😅
They're paradoxes, but not plot holes. The idea of a circle of causality is a common theme in time travel; it even has a name, the "bootstrap paradox". It's a theme of countless stories, and we can't say it's wrong until and unless we start time travelling or prove time travel impossible.
@@MijinLaw Yeah I don't think that one really belongs on the list. It's really not in the same league as "but why not simply send in someone who's immune to radiation?" because it would be mind-breaking to the characters in the game as well. You're not supposed to be able to explain it.
@@MijinLaw All paradoxes would be plot holes. If you can't explain something, it is a plot hole. Paradoxes can not be explained. Not all plot holes are paradoxes.
Also there is the obvious proof that time travel doesn't exist. If people could time travel, it would already be happening. Since there is no evidence of time travel in the past or present, obviously nobody can do that. Especially if you consider that the future is effectively infinite, which means effectively infinite time travelers means somebody in the infinite time travelers would try to brag about inventing time travel.
@@Chris_Sizemore You're assuming time travel can go back an infinite duration. If you look at spacetime, that's not the case. With infinite energy you can time travel... to the exact same point in time, but anywhere in the universe. It's less traveling through time and more moving without time. It's impossible to reverse entropy outside of theoretical Einstein-Rosen bridges through the theorized singularity in a black hole. So like... probably not.
Kratos: It's the grand father paradox, if his wife and daughter would not be dead, he would not have had a reason to go back in time to safe them.
Cratos.
Edit: This is how they [hans^] spelled it originally.
If he goes back in time to fight Zeus again though, unless he appears AFTER he was originally killed, it would produce the same paradox.
@@DontcallmeLink No, it's Kratos, lol. At least in the English versions.
It's not, it's simpler. He can't see past his rage. If he did go back there's a chance the paradox doesn't happen anyway, if both Kratos' can coexist.
I would think the strings of fate operate outside of time and aren’t subject to normal paradoxes. But that’s just head cannon
Related: logical gaps in games. My sister just showed me a bit of Palia, a free-to-play cozy game. It requires 10 apples to grow 1 tree. That's... not how apples work, lol
Maybe they wanted extra in case the first few tries fail? Lol.
I think the important thing to remember about the party in Final Fantasy 8 is that the only one of them who’s an adult is Quistis at 18 years old.
Irvine’s not an asshole, he’s just a kid.
The other thing to remember is that this entire conversation is part of squall's dying fever dream, as per an earlier vid 😉
He's an asshole, but not for this. He's an asshole for not shooting Osama bin Mama Edea when he had the chance.
The important thing to remember is that the plot of the game was completely thrown aside in favor of developing the characters themselves. They literally give no information about the primary enemy of the game, who they are, why they're doing the thing... There's barely an explanation as to why sorceresses are even a thing.
@@thembill8246 That's not even remotely true, they also really didn't need to give any elaborate explanation about what a sorceress is, it's not exactly a new concept in storytelling that came out of nowhere, you're just overthinking things
@@thembill8246Ultimecia's motivation was in the game. The American localization just cut it out entirely. Twice, even, if you count it getting cut from Dissidia. The only hint of it left in-game is a monologue she breaks into in her boss battle.
11:26 "Sad Dad Misery Simulator" ha ha ha sorry thats brilliant
I thought I was watching a video from like 5 years ago, it's crazy how consistent the outsidexbox format has been, I love it.
Andy out here trying to convince us he doesn’t already own a full complement of 16th-century fashion, please
You know Fast and Furious, get ready for Quick and Quirky
Or just change the original title and plot.
Now they're bad racers.
"The Last and the Furious"
And now their anger makes more sense.
Mike not remembering Jane or Andy's faces amused me way more than it really should have. 😂
Irvine IS telling them about their lost memories in that very scene. He knows they lost their memories and set up a scenario where he can help them all remember.
yeah ff8 is a fail on this list, it is perfectly fine considering they all children and irvine was a recluse, he is introduced as introverted recluse, so yeah he didnt speak up and only started to talk when he got them all into their former orphanage.
@@aka-47k I mean, he could have mentioned at the end of Disc 1 that they were planning on assassinating the woman that raised them.
@@davidfisher4809 and risk that they change the plan and kill her? for him he was in perfect position not to shoot, and he didnt shoot. and plan B was a failure from the beginning.
@@davidfisher4809He hadn't seen her before then and nobody knew her name. She was the Matron of the orphanage. It's the reason he fails to assassinate her. He sees her face she realizes who she is. That's also when he realizes nobody else remembers her and starts his plan to get everyone to the orphanage to jog their memory. He doesn't know Guardian Forces steal memories.
If only other people appreciated David Cage’s genius as much as he appreciates it.
Final Fantasy 8 amnesia isn't a hole in the plot, it's a Checkov's Gun. It's right there on Squall's classroom study panel that you have access to at the start of the game. "Memory loss is a possible side effect, but this has not been proven as of yet." Obviously, that was going to come up again at some point.
You are TOLD to check the info, that's kind of your homework as the game starts with you preparing for exam lol. There's a lot of extra lore on computer with the whole school festival stuff and Zell vs disciplinary committee things.
I don’t thing the issue was the gf sided affect causing amnesia but more so that the one character who still has his memories doesn’t speak up sooner. Also Cid who created the mercenary school along with his wife who before she became the sorcerer still had his memories. But it seems like the world has amnesia not just the cast. Then there is the whole Laguna flash back and time travel being thrown into it all that.
How about Uncharted 3? One of the main bad guys is teased to be some sort of supernatural being, as he can disappear at will and shrug off gunshot wounds. And then he just dies at the end like some normal dude.
The more you look at it, the more clear it is that they rushed the game out and the story suffered.
I won't disagree about the rush, even though I actually enjoyed the story and antagonists, as it's kinda obvious but tbh nothing Talbot does is really impossible for a human being in the Uncharted franchise. The time he does get shot and shrugs it off, you could technically logic out of by assuming he's wearing protective gear under his clothes coupled with game logic or whatever you can think of. Don't get me wrong, he does absolutely give off a weird vibe, but the finished story never leaves concrete proof enough to make this a plot hole. Regardless, it definitely could've been written better, so there's that...
Kratos died like a normal dude too…
Video game characters shrugging off gunshot wounds just feels like business as usual, frankly.
@@maryannclementiii-uw5pk how about the bit where the game makes a serious point of him literally vanishing into thin air?
I never get over how many jokes they manage to pack into every video. So good. Amazing.
What about all the plot-relevant holes Elizabeth makes in the fabric of reality in Bioshock Infinite ?
...Oh. You meant figuratively. Well I'm sure there are some of those too, no way to avoid them with time travel and/or multiverses.
Can understand why there's an ever growing camp that only deems BioShock 1 and 2 as the prime canon, this nonsense. I'd rather rewatch the Spider-Verse films and Fionna and Cake than replay that sorry overhyped mess of a game lately.
@@michaelandreipalon359 "I'd rather rewatch the Spider-Verse films" You say that like it's a bad thing
@@firehedgehog1446 Not really. Am just referring to the fact that they did their Multiversal travel tales in a more fascinating and rewatchable manner than whatever bloat BioShock: Infinite did.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Oh, ok, yes that is very true
9:20 - I haven't seen another comment mention this so just have to say it: Irvine's basketball shot actually has 3 different outcomes depending on how many battles you have won up to that point! Less than 200 wins and he misses the basket, 200-249 and the ball goes straight in like in the video and 250+ the ball runs around the edge of the hoop before going in.
FF8 also had a bootstrap paradox involving the powers of the sorceress originating in the future where you defeat her and going back into the past to cause all of the story events.
Alan Wake also had one that the developers went out of their way to call out in a conversation between Alan and Tom the poet. Where they discuss the fact that they both have the ability to write changes into reality and both write changes about the other character, so who wrote whom into existence?
I like to think that Tom wrote Alan into existence so that Alan can save/help him or something like that
To be fair, messy paradoxical time travel is what the first Final Fantasy game is ultimately about.
@@chocolatefudgebrowni3225 I was under the impression that was the case. The bit with the old light switch in the first game was found with one of Tom's manuscripts describing it.
Time Travel, it's almost never a clean business, especially since there are so many different theories on how it would work
@@daviddaugherty2816 If I remember correctly when the two discuss it Tom assured Alan that Alan is the original writer.
4:20 - "Fellow hat wearer". I love this channel's writing.
"I need my routines otherwise I get all anxious" okay Andy, no need to call me out like that
"I shot myself!" "Stupid gun." 😂don't ever change.
Well if you chose the only true correct ending, she'll never have the opportunity to change again.
Another example of a Bootstrap paradox is with Pokémon Scarlet/Violet, the professor of the game somewhat started their obsession with the paradox Pokémon because after the Indigo Disk dlc, a book said a kid gave him a white book with information about it, said kid being you after you get it helping around getting said information
That's not the case at all. In the DLC we give them Briar's book which has all the information they would want and in return they give us the original copy of the Scarlet/Violet book that inspired them. Now that they have this information they can stop obsessing over Paradox Pokemon and instead go home to take care of Arven.. It just doesn't effect our current timeline but now a new one exists where Arven has a happy upbringing with likely both parents since the other one likely left because the Professor was too obsessive in their research.
On Life Is Strange:
I'd say the first rewind wasn't actually a rewind at all but more of a vision in which she gained the power of time reversal. That's why she "wakes up" back in the classroom.
a major plot hole in borderlands 3 is "why isn't Athena and Janey Springs part of the crew?" and it's never addressed.
Isn't Athena dead? And Janey left to go live a life of peace?
@@chrismanuel9768 no, Athena was spared at the end of pre-sequel and tales from the borderlands, she goes off to marry Janey.
Is it a plot hole? Pretty sure it is explained in The Pre-Sequel.
3:49 i appreciate the offhand mental health check. I think as gamers we don't check on each other personally enough. To prevent violent episodes enough. Its okay to talk things out and find respect between each other
The needing money thing at the end gave me an idea: Games we would pretend don't exist for 100 quid. Easy for rest of us, difficult for the oxbox crew because even bad, cliche and boring games can be mined for jokes and trends. So it would be "Here are some games that are somehow so unremarkably bizarre we never talk about them." And, I guess, the corollary video: Games you literally couldn't pay us to shut up about. Again, not necessarily the best games, but ones are the mine from which oxbox extracts UA-cam gold.
Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Invisible War, Star Wars: Rebel Assault I+II, that game about bikers riding to hell and retribution...
Kingdoms of Amalur. 'Nuff said.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Don't forget Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines!
@@marneus90 That's in the latter, right, not the former?
The "sorry, who are you?" bit killed me 😂😂😂
"Have you tried rotating it back and forward a bit?" Yes.
3:27 Yes, he was just blinded by vengeance
The way i thought of the Song of Storms is the windmill guy always knew the song. He's just bent out of shape when the Ocarina of Time causes magic shenanigans.
he is basically playing it already
Another plot hole would be that saving Chloe's dad keeps him alive but Chloe keeps dying over and over until you finally accept it or don't.
Oh my gosh I'd literally just typed a big answer about the hiding Chloe's dad's keys quest assuming he always finds them and dies but I never realised there was a way to keep him alive! Sorry Chloe...I guess her losing him is maybe the main timeline judging by the prequel though? This is like when I played Dream Daddy and thought every ending with your daughter being a bit awkward was the same but turns out there was a better ending that I missed getting like seven times 😅
The only salve for Luke leaving is Mike and Andy.
On one hand its great for Luke to be pursuing what he is passionate about.
On the other hand, if for whatever reason he fails at it, we will probably get Luke back.
It’s a win win for everybody. We can be happy for Luke moving forward, and also we are all still here for him to fall back on if things go awry.
The Song of Storms one is a paradox, but not a plot hole. Link learned it from the windmill guy. Then he goes back in time to teach it to the windmill guy so that he'll know it to teach Link's younger self later.
4:45 For the LA Noir one, like you said, the more you think about it, the worse it gets. Particularly when you consider that film cameras in the 1940's were clunky contraptions with film reels set on tripods. The fact that there are multiple filming angles edited together in the recording means that either a) the folks recorded did their speech several times with the the location of the camera changing in between run-throughs, or b) several of those cameras were set up while they spoke. Either way, the implication is that they were well aware they were being filmed, and didn't mind a bit.
"I need my routines or else I get all anxious". Andy, I feel that so much
FF8 isn't a plot hole. They explain the amnesia. It's stupid, but they explain it.
This is why I try not to overthink it too much when gaming, or why I like it when games just leave it vague for the players to argue about for ages.
That said, we have no real idea how much time has passed between Portal and Portal 2, but it's indicated to be a hell of a long time. Why are all the potatoes in that one section not rotted away to nothing? I can put aside disbelief enough to get how Chell managed to stay alive in suspended animation or whatever, but those potatoes had nothing keeping them from rotting. I'm not even talking about the one that Chell made that grew into a massive plant/tree through the ceiling.
Also, I need my routines too, Andy.
The game was rigged from the start.
@@SimuLord Fair point, lol. I said that as a FromSoftware fan and I know they'll argue about any little detail that they can think of, particularly the Souls fans. I stick to Vaati for my lore needs when it comes to those games.
@@SimuLord Yeah, vague moments can be quite troublesome when fans get ahold of them, especially if they have anything to do with character relationships (though fans will debate stuff like that regardless.)
It's the future. They're probably irradiated pest resistant rot resistant GMO super potatoes. The game takes place like a thousand years from now
My bets on Portal 2's are between 50,000 to 500,000 years after the events of Half-Life 2: Episode Two and Epistle 3.
A theory I have for where the Storm of Time could have come from originally is the music box itself, like if Link was just playing along and stumbled onto the song since it's already what the music box guy is playing 🤔
So to clarify: it's what the music-box-guy was already playing _when Link was young,_ but it didn't become significant until young Link later played the melody _using the Ocarina of Time._ THAT's when it caused the storm, sent the windmill into overdrive and gave music-box-guy a bad memory about it, from which adult Link learned the power of the song.
@@Stratelier Basically, especially since the Song of Storms only has power when played with an instrument with special properties like the Ocarina of Time, and possibly the Fairy Ocarina (depending on how you view it.)
@@homerman76 So basically the paradox started with Young Link playing along to the music box for fun and accidentally causing shenanigans during what is now a broken part of the timeline, because when Adult Link learns the song and travels back in time to INTENTIONALLY drain the well it creates the loop?
What I love about the FF8 one is that people came up with actually great fan theories to explain why it's nonsensical and dumb and the makers of FF8 had to come out and say no it's meant to be taken seriously and is in fact that contrived.
"Forget all this. Not the videos, obviously" 😂
Reminds me of a plot hole from an old PS2 game called Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land. Later in the game, you find out that the queen that you've been taking orders from is a fake, as the real queen has been dead the whole time. However, you find out even later in the game that literally _everyone_ in the game, protagonists included, have been dead the whole time, meaning the queen still has no excuse for being MIA.
Majora's mask fixed the song of storms issue. Link after/during OoT as a child left. Learned the song in Termina, came back and taught it to the windmill guy. Who then taught it to the parallel -ly active link. It's pretty simple as time manipulation stories go.
Oh that's very cool!
I liked the idea that it's not necessarily that he actually learned it from link and that's WHY he didn't recognize Link.
That plot isn't a time paradox when you put in the idea that Link teaching him is a change in the timeline. It does raise a question of HWO??? but... that's easier to answer.
No. He never returned from Termina. Did you forget that to get to Termina (literally "The End") he was first lost in the Lost Woods (something that is 100% fatal in all cases for Hylians like Link), fell through a magic rift, and ended up in a place between worlds with the Happy Mask Salesman (a man hinted to be a greater deity), and that canonically that iteration of Link is the one that became the Hero's Shade, the ghost of a dead hero of time that got lost in the Lost Woods and never returned to Hylia?
Link didn't leave Termina and teach anyone anything. That Link died in the Lost Woods.
@@chrismanuel9768 The devs have straight out debunked that theory, Link returned and became the Hero's shade of Twilight Princess after growing up, since lost children become skull kids.
Termina was as in Terminal, since it is the center area of the map. It can also be a reference to it being connected to at least two other worlds as seen when you fight the boss in the Ikana region, the tower was a portal to the world of the ninja like enemies.
Also of note is the plane of existence map in the Historia. Termina is a world on the same level as Hyrule not above or below like other worlds Link has travelled to.
@@marhawkman303 I love the theory but there is the issue that as far as we know the only other being who knows the song is the ghost of a musician cursed and bound to a dead land people shy away from in another dimension.
For the life is strange one, I imagine that her intentionally using the power is what enables her to stay in place. The first time she used it was by accident, resulting in everything being reset. Herself included. But every future use of it, she would find that she can remain where she is while everything else rewinds.
I don't think she stays in one place every time though, does she? Like, when she goes back to save Chloe's dad, did that put little baby Max inside some rando's dorm room all of a sudden? It's been forever since I played.
Thank you for making such (Plot) Holesome content!
I remember hearing that the reason why the FO 3 ending is like that is that when the game was conceived it was experimental. People tend to forget that before this turn based RPGs and such were far more popular for serious gamers. Bethesda did some focus testing and found out they had a hit on their hands and started making plans for DLC, so where they intended the game to stand alone and end in a nice little package where the hero goes, the DLC plans required them to alter that idea, thus these options were added. Allegedly somehow bringing Fawkes was not even going to be an option.
Allegedly both the writer, and some of the voice actors, including Ron Perlman, were not pleased about having contract pulled on them and being made to come back in, and that's why it turned out this way. True or not, it does make sense, and explain the tonal disconnected like with other work done under duress.
There are also some stories about how the "Sydney" character was originally planned to be a full on companion (one of the reasons why it's apparently so easy to mod this) but there were legal issues with it. Basically the character is based on Tia Carerre's late night TV character "Sydney Fox" from the show "Relic Hunter". Something that was more obvious at the time as it was closer to the show. The bottom line was that they had a sort of handshake deal with the actress/singer to both voice the character and sing a bit for the game, and that she wanted to do it. That said there were reasons why it never happened, and every version of this rumor is incredibly lurid so I won't go into the whole mess of the different versions I've heard over the years and which seem most likely as it's stuff no one would logically talk about. I've heard it from so many different places that it seems likely at it there is a core of truth. All I can say is that it does seem possible as apparently her career sort of vanished due to bad contracts and legal reasons, beyond getting into all of the sex rumors that follow any pretty girl in that business. People forget she was originally on like "General Hospital" and then was introduced in a bit part for "The A Team" with the intent of her being a regular, but it turned into a one off episode, because "General Hospital" wouldn't let her out of the contract and then didn't use her like they said so she got nothing. She wasn't "discovered for real" until years later with the "Wayne's World" movies but otherwise just did big parts and "also ran" movies some of which were not bad, and many which were terrible, in part because of how her contracts were held. Her voice work on I believe "Lilo and Stich", and TV show (much later) were things she managed to do based on cracks in the contracts or expiration of details. Allegedly the people holding these contracts had something sex related going on with her that made the situation problematic and didn't want to get rid of it, but I have no idea how that would work. Last time I saw her I believe was in "Hawaii 5-0" where she appeared as herself hiring out as singer for a wedding or something.
At any rate I mention that whole mess mostly to remind people that there were plenty of stories about FO-3 and issues with the talent. I believe Bethesda was being made out as the bad guy in a lot of it. I'm pretty sure there were other rumors/allegations but those two stick out and the first one is of course the video relevant one. Apparently they were afraid this might turn out like the Fallout Action RPG for consoles at first, so there were no DLC plans, and it was going to be a one off, but that changed after focus testing and the reception from it so as I said... they started cracking the whip over bits they had finished to make sure that could happen and not everyone was happy about it.
No one mentioning the Orphanage in FF8 isn't a plot hole. Spoilers: Squall and party have amnesia due to the summons taking up part of their brains. Squall's missing sister is literally in Garden at the beginning of the game! The one party member who didn't use a summon until the events of FF8 Irvine was embarrassed to ask why none of them had recognised him.
Yeah, I was surprised that that popped up in the video as well since it's pretty well noted in the game why the orphanage never came up
I'm a few Fast & Furii behind, but as I recall Mr. Diesel usually makes a point of driving "American muscle". You'll either need an obscene amount of money to change his mind, or an even more obscene amount to make enough Fast & Furios that everyone forgets he said that.
In FFVIII if any of you had been paying attention a large portion of the plot revolves around the junctioning and over-reliance on GFs that, within the games lore, occupy a physical space in your brain like a tumor and eat away at random parts of your psyche.
The main cast struggle to recollect their memories of the orphanage and have to literally piece the memories together by collectively sharing the few bits and pieces they have because those memories, being some of the oldest they have, are what was taken by using the GFs
A plothole this is not
What about the time that Max goes so far back she becomes younger and tries to save Chloe's dad
Idk, the FF8 entry isn't really much of a plot hole, not only is it easy to forget childhood memories (explaining why that was the first thing to go through high use of the Guardian Forces,) but Irvine also probably didn't want to burden his childhood chums with the reality that they needed to kill their caretaker. It also explains why his role as the sniper was so hard on him since he knew what needed to be done, but didn't know if he had the strength to do it, something he didn't want the others to suffer through. It was fine for the one off mission, since he knew the others had moved on, but by the point of visiting Trabia Garden it was time to come clean since they had grown close again.
Youre right.
Damn, I never actually put 2 and 2 together when it came to his sniping reluctance and his recognizing Edea. Well done.
@@gregmilne4378 It's my favorite Final Fantasy game, so I've played it a lot and it was cool to recognize this fact when I first put 2 and 2 together myself, glad to have shared 😁
My memory is hazy, but in LiS doesn't she transport back via polaroid? That's a separate power she uses several times later on in the game which results in her teleporting back in time to take over her body, like when she saves Chloe's dad. The point she travels back to is the selfie she took in class like 5 minutes ago.
I might be wrong, but I thought that was what was happening
I think the Life Is Strange one is fine.
We see her dip into greater abilities later in the game like using photos to transport herself way back in her life, so this is kinda in the same vein of power.
yeah, one explanation is that it's part of how she chooses to use the power. She has options in other words.
#7, the Bootstap Paradox isn't a plot hole since the problem is the whole point of the concept. But always good to see it pop up.
My favourite handwave people use for the L.A. Noire one is the idea that they have the film for "insurance" so that no one can backstab anyone else. Given the relative restraints & hardships involved for the time period, combined with extremely lopsided risk over reward, in conjunction with how Kelso was able to dsicover the reel and very easily play it, this is handwave only makes sense if you don't think about it even a tiny bit.
The actual meta reason is clearly that the devs were running short on either time, creative ideas, or both and just shoe-horned in a convenient way for Kelso & the player to learn everything in a 3 minute cutscene.
Irvine really was a tragic character. The whole reason why he choked on the sniper mission was because he had his memories