This show is much more than just a show about pedals for me. My dad was just diagnosed with cancer and I'm struggling to find the joy in my guitar playing and gear. You guys give me that entertainment I need to take myself out of my own head. You guys do great work- thank you.
+Dennis Yacono Wow. If we're just a tiny part of making things easier or better for you, we are deeply humbled. All the best to you and your Dad, Dennis!
That Pedal Show always cheers me up too... I can always watch previous shows for a laugh or to try to learn a bit more... Tough times for me too and the show is a pick me up, always
I agree! I have serious health issues that have stopped me from playing with my band the last few years. I've always been a gear junkie, and really enjoy your videos. I really like listening to you guys digging in and really putting these pedals through their paces. But I also like the fact that you seem to really like each other, and have a genuine passion for tone like I do. I'm 51 and been doing this a long time, I've built and modded my own pedals, do all the wiring in my guitars etc. But I still learn new stuff watching your videos. It really makes my day watching you guys, and I trust your opinions on the gear as well. Too many other channels are just shills, and the pedal they're testing is the best one ever, until the next demo. Please keep doing what you do, feels like I'm watching friends even though we've never met. Thanks
I understand where you guys are coming from. The Jan Ray debacle was different, though. There's plenty of pedal makers out there that acknowledge where a circuit comes from and they sell you their take on it. EQD sells the Palisades as the ultimate TS pedal. There is no hiding its origin. The marketing (and price difference) comes from the additional options and the upgraded components they offer. What the Vermuram people did was super shady. They took a Timmy circuit, changed the chip and other values, then charged people almost 4 times the amount of a new Timmy. And they sold it proudly as an original design with years of research and development. And they added goop to cover the circuit. As far as I am concerned, no Vermuram pedals for me. Ever.
This exactly. People are not taking issue with imitations or clones. Vemuram had claimed they put 3 years of original development into the Jan Ray. They lied, they were dishonest. And when it was revealed and the forums blew up, they continued to be dishonest. The issue wasn't around cloning, it was around dishonest practices. And you see this a lot from small pedal companies. No guitar company makes a strat-type guitar and says it's an all new model. Amp companies, it's usually clear what classic amp they're based on. Small pedal companies though, they often lie in marketing to get ahead. From Vemuram, Vertex, Blackeye Effects, etc... When companies lie, consumers lose the ability to make good decisions. Dishonest companies, companies that want to make a profit by lying to its customers, should be avoided.
Yeah, fuck Vemuram. They totally screwed over Paul Cochrane. I won't even address Lovepedal's clone. I have always thought his pedals were overrated though.
Dude, before you keep on bashing the Vemuran Jan Ray, may I ask you a question: have you ever tried one? Clone? Maybe. Pricey? Oh yes. But before we go further, please do yourself a favour and plug a les paul into a Jan Ray and let's continue the discussion from there. It's a very good pedal IMHO.
No one's disputing it's a great pedal. It's a freakin great pedal. But so is the Timmy. Jan Ray is a very slightly modded clone. And no one's saying you can't clone pedals either. Vemuram could have said, "based on a certain pedal" and no one would have an issue with it. Or they could have opted to not say anything at all! But they said it took 3 years of original development. That's a deliberate lie. We shouldn't let companies just lie to us. That's bad for all of us who are into pedal and gear. We should let the market know that we want honest business. Clone? Not maybe, a definite yes. Pricey? 4 times the original, yes. Dishonest, shady company? Yes. Again, a very good pedal. But a very dishonest shady company.
OK, I understand. I did not care so much for the builder's reputation. We all know the Klon Centaur story and the horrible hype. Even if it is a Timmy clone, it does sound better (or different) than the Timmy IMHO. Some people said horrible things about Josh from JHS too. Well, nobody knows the truth but he is a great builder too, that's a fact.
Suggestion: Love every episode, but I think it'd be interesting to have a "Better Rhythm Tones For Everyone" much like last week's episode. Something for all of us rhythm players!
The Cochrane Timmy is absolutely amazing! It's an essential pedal in my rig and have one on every board. I run it always on and love it's tonality and versatility.
Since I first watched this (the day it aired), I've acquired a Tim pedal and am now awaiting delivery of a Big Box Amp Eleven. I'm so excited. I don't care if they are similar or not..... I'll set them differently and have plenty of gain range to enjoy! I'm glad you guys are still around my weekly UA-cam feed. Keep it up!
Hats off to you guys for tackling the moral/ethical issues surrounding these pedals. You handled that with class, intelligence and sensitivity to your community. You could have easily avoided this but that would be taking a deaf ear to your audience. I realize I'm five years late to this conversation but bear this in mind, each one of your shows send me (and probably all of us) on extensive journey's learning more about the pedals you feature. This is me just working my way back in history. Well done.
Love your vids guys! You've rescued my tone beyond all belief by making me think about my pedals and how they work with the amp and guitar I use. Keep passing on the knowledge, as I believe every guitar player should watch these videos before they start gigging: you're doing the whole world a service!
I think the issue people had with Jan Ray, including myself to a point but not really, because I have the power of the purse and I can choose to support and buy it or not support and buy it, but the issue is Jan Ray claimed that it took 3 years of R& D and now here is the pedal at an astronomical price as opposed to just saying, here is our take what the Timmy pedal should have been. We liked the pedal and we thought we could improve it and here it is at twice the price. The latter there would be acceptable because it's honest and although people can cry ethics there, this is the case of how life works and how things get improved. However to say we did 3 years of R&D and now pay over 3 times the price of the Timmy adds a new layer of being disingenuous and therefor turned people off. Personally, I own 3 Timmy pedals that I have on my 3 boards and I love it and could no way see a value trading them in for one Jan Ray when personally I don't think they even differ that much. I think it was Blankenship who said there hasn't been an original amplifier idea since 1965 and he is probably right, but you don't see Victoria Amps saying they spent 3 years designing their 4x10 amp only to find its a Bassman Clone. Everyone rips off everyone, its the spin after that I think gets Jan Ray into hot water, not the actual act. Anyway, love your channel guys, always entertaining. Cheers.
Mick's playing is always so damn good. I'd love a straight up Tubescreamer/Klon/Timmy/Zendrive/JTM-45-style-pedal (Rockett .45 Calibur?) comparison video. Just one of each pedal and then watch you two compare all the different flavors.
Great show again guys. I've been using a Timmy for years, and it's one of the few pedals that was always on my board. It works great with either a Mesa Rectifier of a small Fender Champ. A classic pedal IMO, and still, a LOT of people are not aware that this great pedal exist.
So glad you guys spent a bit more time showcasing the Timmy. I felt you kinda glossed over it last time. It is such a great pedal in front of a Marshall and deserves all the praise that it gets
An interesting point, I think, that many people do not bring up when talking about these "stolen circuits" is that with even the SLIGHTEST variation in circuit design, the pedals can, and will react differently when paired with other pedals, amps, guitars, etc. You can't tell from a schematic what the slightest variation will create when combined with what is essentially an infinite amount of gear combinations. That is not to say, (as you guys mentioned) that there aren't moral implications of even starting your design process with another designers circuit...but, how many tube screamer variations do we love SPECIFICALLY because of the way that individual pedal sounds in OUR rig. Anyway...thanks so much for all the great videos. Your combination of information and humor is much appreciated. Keep up the great work, and thank you.
Hey Dan and Mick! Interesting to see how Mick felt like the more compressed setting on the Timmy somehow had a Tubescreamer feel. Regarding the clipping features, I just had a look at some guts and schematics and in fact the compressed setting has the exact same diode configuration as the TS (2X silicon diodes), the Asymetric has the exact same as the Boss SD1 or Lovepedal Eternity (3X)and the middle stock setting the exact same diode configuration as the Marshall BB (4X) or the Analgoman KOT(similiar). I think it is a very interesting, flexible and innovative design. Great job from Paul. Hopefully there will be some nice smart designs as this one coming from new pedal companies. Regarding the Timmy VS Jay Ray, the difference really lies on the Treble knob (same goes for the Amp11). With the Treble all the way on the Timmy you get all the guitar frequencies trough which is great for a clean boost use, but with the Jay Ray you still get some top end cut out. In other words, you could match their high end by having the Jay Ray Treble knob all the way up and the Timmy slightly down. The Timmy is more flexible in Compression, Gain and EQ, I don't see any improvements from Vemuram to the circuit personally. s76.photobucket.com/user/IvIark_2006/media/Layouts/Schematics/Timmy%20Jan%20Ray.gif.html
I’ve used the Timmy for years and haven’t found anything that’s beat it. I’ve also spoken with Paul C. briefly and he was a gentleman. I’ve bought 3 and will buy more in the future if needed. Long live Paul and the Timmy!
Timmy does it best. With more options. Paul Cochrane is a top notch fella. He’s repaired my footswitch on my Timmy twice for free because I use it so much! I kind of hate that he contracted out to MXR. Don’t get me wrong, MXR is great but the Paul C. Timmy is just too legendary to have the MXR badge on it.
I just saw a classified ad for a local pedal maker, TL Pedals. He's building a dual overdrive where one side is a Klone and the other side is KOT copy.... He calls it the King Klon. For $250. I'm intrigued. Neither of those pedals was within my grasp financially; now I can get both in a single housing for $125 each and support a local builder in the process. Now I just have to find a way to hide $250 from my wife.
The Amp 11 is by far one of the best sounding ODs ever made. I never take it off my board, and I rotate out a ton of pedals. It's just that damn good. Between the Plimsoul and the Amp 11, I have two spots that are nearly always the same. But I still want a Timmy :)
That was very well done. I've been interested in the Timmy for Vox AC15C1X and the switch demonstrations were outstanding. The sound and feel differences did translate into the audio of the video. Outstanding job getting those subtleties across in regards to compression. Thank you.
Just got the MXR Timmy a week ago and I’ve barely turned it off. Stacking it with my other drive pedals makes so many great sounds. Being able to clip the highs and lows makes it so great to tweak.
That Pedal Show is helping me so much. I ended up with a bunch of randomly bought, mismatched pedals, purchased in my teens and early 20s. I've sold all of them on and I'm starting again. More educated and taking my time in selecting things that work together. First stop for my Strat setup- a good compressor.
+Chris Turner Great stuff Chris. We are proud to be your companions on this journey. It never ends - so it may as well be fun, right?! Thanks for watching!
That Pedal Show Absolutely. I'm giving myself limits though. Only allowed what can fit on a Pedaltrain Nano. I think that will make me really think it through and not impulse buy. Luckily my Blackstar amp has decent reverb and delay, so I won't have to worry about that.
Once AGAIN fellow noodlers/pedal lovers and teachers of sonic truth and deliverers from wasted $$$ in the search for rig righteousness ... you entertain, enlighten and enthuse our hearts....... you're greatly appreciated and valued by this yank.. When seeing what new UA-cam content is available on any given day.. and your video is there... I pick YOU !!!
I look forward to Fridays now because I learn so much from you guys! I'm also glad that you guys use the boutique/high quality equipment. There are plenty of folks showcasing the "affordable" stuff. I'd definitely be interested in another run of Carpe Diem pedals if it's not too much of a hassle getting it to America! Thanks again guys, keep the videos coming!
The Timmy is my favorite Pedal. Gain full on with Timmy over my Fender Blues Junior III, zero humming noise! The Timmy beats Wampler's Dual Fusion by far in terms of hum noise! The Timmy is really fantastic!
Me too, Mick - had to have the Timmy. Long ago, maybe as far back as the 1990's, Joe Ely and David Grissom performed on Austin City Limits. Grissom's sound was GIGANTIC - overdriven yet clear. I have looked since then to find a pedal that would get that vibe. Timmy!!!
Well considering the Jam Ray is £339 and I got the New 15th anniversary V3 timmy shipped from the states for £154, I'd say the Timmy is the easy winner here!
I discovered your channel this year and have been massively enjoying alot of your videos. Just came to watch this and realized how young yall look 5 yrs ago haha
Great show guys. One thing worth mentioning about the Timmy is that the Bass rolloff is pre-gain and the Treble is post-gain. I love my Timmy, like Mick I use a Strat (American Deluxe) into a 65 Deluxe reissue. Divine. On my board I have TS808HW into a Timmy into an EP Booster. I like to think of it as the Trinity of ODs. ;) It was initially a little difficult to find the best sound from the Timmy but once you find it it's great. That Amp 11 also sounds super!
I like this trend of low gain pedals that we're seeing now. The Timmy is a very useful pedal with the different clipping options and cut EQ controls. I thought all three pedals sounded great. The main reason I like them is that I can get that cranked amp sound at any volume.
I'm a happy owner of a Tim mk1 and I absolutely love this pedal. I found it a a pawn shop and I tried it on a solid state line6 and I immediately knew I needed it. it's replaced my Xotic RC boost. none other like it.
Another fantastic Friday. I do look foreward to the insights that are given as well as the manner they are delivered. I will never be a professionally compensated player; however, playing is an intergral part of my life and my primary hobby. I appreciate the fact that you two trade professionals put time and effort into providing (for what appears to be no tangible compensation) a hack like me thoughtful presentations that inspire me to play more. Spot on delivery and judiciously honest commentary as always. Thanks again guys.
+Scb Lds Thank you for that Scb. You've summed up why we do this and we're totally stoked that you feel inspired! That is the whole point. We won't shy away from TPS being a commercial entity in time (via merch, donations, events etc), but it will NEVER involve taking money from manufacturers to feature stuff. Thanks for watching!
Being a pedal junkie, I usually don't like a lot of talking during a demo, but you guys are really entertaining. You both are killer players too. I'm so glad that I subscribed.
I think the reason people take so much offence at the Jan-Ray is the bullshit he sold it under, talking about all the years of research he had put into it when it was a very obvious Timmy clone. I put that to the side and tried one out. Didn't do it for me. Really want to try a Timmy out.
Don't forget the goop. They gooped it like Finnegan did with the Klon Centaur. Except that this was a blatant Timmy clone, selling for almost 4x the price.
LoL!!! You are right Aron Otega!! Klon is a blatant Timmy/Tim clone. Perhaps, that is why the internal Klon circuit board is all covered with "goop" to conceal the Tim/Timmy forgery.
Love fridays thanks Mick & Dan, as always really interesting video. Bought a Timmy sometime ago haven't been disappointed. Jan Ray if you can find one is almost twice the price of the fabulous Timmy.
I use the original Amp 11, bluish color, almost always on for a bit of grit. Use the boost or a Wampler Euphoria for solos stacked with it. Had a Tim but sold it. Had KoT but sold it. Had OCD but sold. Still have a Fulldrive but is on my backup board. Tele into a silver face 1975 Princeton Reverb. Occasionally mix in a Pigtronix micro germanium compressor.
It is very difficult to earn a U.S. patent in electronics because most of electronics is derivative. It is difficult to design a circuit that does not owe a debt of gratitude to other designs. If you think of an original design, it is probably not as original as you imagine. This issue has also come up in the software industry. For this reason, the legal system is the final arbiter because it is well experienced with the nuances of the arguments. In light of that, those snoopers who reverse engineer circuits by tracing them and modifying them are not really unethical though they may be an annoyance to the producer who is being copied. A friend of mine designed an innovative mic preamp, and he hired a patent lawyer in order to patent the design. The lawyer suggested, "Just produce your preamp and put it on the market, and forget about a patent." because he was aware of this complexity and its cost.
Small correction (from a nerdy electronics and signals engineer): when you have asymmetrical clipping, it's not that you have either the positive or negative side clipped. Some pedal producer use different diods for the positive half of the signal then for the negative (very common is to use a Ge diod on one side and a Si one on the other). OR you could have two diods on either one of the sides and just one on the other.
How cool to hear the riff from “My Heavy Friend” by that awesome Aussie band, The Truth!! Nice one Dan. And another great video helping me on my quest for choosing an overdrive.
The issue with the ethics bit is there is a gap between what boutique, innovative pedal makers need to charge in order to be sustainable, and what the average person can afford to pay if they want a half decent board. I would LOVE to own a Gigrig G2, but the amount that you need to charge Dan to make a living is more than I can afford, so I ended up with the Boss es-8. Its an unfortunately reality of the differences between the innovators and the mass producers.
I am saving for a Gigrig G2, as my need is not immediate (in fact, I only have one of the pedals on my list). I think the price difference between Dan's product and the ES-8 is quite reasonable, as the Gigrig G2 is much more capable and versatile than the ES-8. My only concern regarding Dan's pricing is that there is no product listing for a Gigrig G2 without a Generator, for those of us who would like to build a board with Dan's modular power supply and add a Gigrig G2 when funds allow.
+Robstafarian cheers Rob, the Generator is included for free, it's so important to power G2 with a supply that's up for the job. But if you already have our power system just email and we'll sort something out for you. :)
But Paul Cochrane makes it for very cheap compared to similar overdrives, and is his main source of income for a single man operation. Vemuram just copied his circuit and charges way, way more.
After watching this video and hearing the Amp11 Lovepedal, I decided to try one. Up to that point, I had been through Fulltone Fulldrive 2, OCD, Bondi Sick As and J Rockett Archer and I just couldn't be content. Something was missing. However, the search is over: the Lovepedal is amazing! Thanks for introducing me to it.
Are the Fulldrive and OCD quite different? I own an OCD, but have never tried a Fulldrive. I always wondered if I should buy one because I thought they were similar.
Bravo gents! I know it's That "Pedal" show, but this episode really made me think about all the different flavors of pickups that were demo'd. Maybe in an upcoming episode you can talk about the technical and tonal differences between all the different types you use (single, lipstick, humbucker, P90, filtertron, foil).
awesome video as always.. i think the difficulty with the copy thing is that, some times the copy is either better, or has more flexibility or has been improved in some way. Take the Big Muff video from a while back, after that i really want a Thorpy muffroom cloud and not a real big muff; its got more options and a smaller footprint... absolutely if id have come up with it, then i'd be really upset if someone was copying my idea, but that's life and progress unfortunately... We defiantly need a video comparing amp's at some point (Marshall, VOX, Boogie, Fender etc) as that's the foundation talking about amp characteristics that a lot of your video's cover; just for us who haven't had the luxury of playing amps side by side and hear / understand the differences. thanks
And what's a "real" Big Muff becomes a question with old popular circuits like that. A modern EHX Big Muff has less in common with a real Ram's Head era Muff than a Chicago Stompworks Moose Pie Ram's Head clone, for example.
The Thorpy was an amazing standout in that video, and there was obviously also some magical intangible that Dan and Mick were responding to. That said, the modern EHX Deluxe Big Muff Pi is a fantastic pedal; the mids channel alone lets you create almost any muff tone you can imagine. The attack and gate controls, bass boost, and expression pedal interface features stand out as well. Plus, despite all logic and reason, it's made in New York and can be had online for $120.
What Vemuram did is different. They specifically said they spent 3 years of original development in making Jan Ray. False, it's a clone. Pedal nuts like us don't care about clones, things get improved, etc. you're right. But we should care when companies blatantly lie to us for profit.
Previously someone was commenting on how great is JHS quality and i'm sure it is and how amazing is their customer service, i also believe that, i don’t have any experience with it. Here goes my own experience on TIM (big blue one with boost) vs JHS quality, mostly to defend the TIM because i really like it and i do have a lot of good overdrives and TIM is the one on my pedalboard. My TIM that i bought second hand in August 2012 for 202.5USD + shipping + taxes (i checked the invoice) after a million gigs without a proper pedalboard, just a wood board with pedals on top. Well it still works like a charm, not even a single problem, not a noise or a bad temper. Works every single time even being now a ball of dust and dirt and it sounds *great* by any standards, 4 years now without any problem, i think we can call this a stompbox. Now my own experience with JHS is unfortunately not good, might be bad luck, bad karma whatever, but i’m done with JHS, at least for now, i did liked their april fool video they did. Bun Runner around 270USD + shipping and taxes, mint but also second hand, not even passed the try out period, it started with volume going up and down and cutting the sound, is all messed up, too depressing to even bother, is now on a box living with a 40 years old mutron that died last year, the difference is that it hasn’t 40 years. Then i bought a colorbox, new, right when it came out. Waiting to come out, big expectations! 400USD + shipping and taxes. Good news is that it works. Bad news, it arrived with a messed up input jack! A loose jack! A crappy plastic jack that screws with what i guess is a metal nut, not even beheringer style, the jack was striped, metal over plastic is just not a good idea. So what a good fella does in Europe? Right, you replace the jack, you void the warranty and keep playing. Alternative? Well you can spend another 50USD on shipping and deal with customs again, not my thing, is not JHS fault but just too complicated. The customer service i’m sure is good but it is kinda useless when you are not in US. What i expect is: you buy a stompbox and you stomp it for years before it breaks. So, to me, Paul Cochrane is winning here, winning really big and sounding even better. JHS website is much nicer is a fact and their business is much smarter. I also considered to buy a superbolt a couple years ago, glad i didn’t now that i look back, i had build myself a Supreaux Deux way before that and i liked the sound, so when i heard “supro” it catched my attention, i know now that i would be buying the same pedal. A clone of my own clone, would be too weird. JHS is not my only bad experience with pedals. Unfortunately pedals breaking with me just happened with very cheap pedals or really old pedals. Crappy jacks on a 399USD pedal? C’mon make it 400USD and put some decent jacks on it.
+Dillon Govender Hi Dillon, thank you for that. If you check the video description text, there's a link to our Patreon page where you can do exactly that. Thanks for watching!
I gave a quick look at your patreon page. Yeah, patreon is a great tool, I think you should give it a little more fuel: perks and rewards are a core mechanic of the site and implementing a few should be a great boost! also, adding a small trailer on that site and here on youtube would be a good move :) now that my unwanted advices have been given I shall return to my pedalboard :P have a nice day!
I love my Timmy. I still can't believed I found it in a pawn shop for $80CAN. I typically use it if I want a crunch somewhere between my clean tone and the dirty channel of my amp or to get a lead tone on my dirty channel that is louder with slightly more gain but without pushing the mids. I do keep a TubeScreamer style pedal around for when I really want a drastically different tone. As far as cheaply priced clones go, if that's all you can afford, go for it; but when you can afford the pedal it's based on, you owe it to yourself to check that pedal out and see if you might possibly like it better than the clone. There will be some differences... The clones, in my experience, get you close ; but seldom are they identical sounding.
I think this was my favorite episode yet! Loved all the pedals, but I have to say while I like my Jan Ray "clone of a clone of a clone" that I built myself, I really love the Timmy here also, and think I need to get one. Lovepedal did not suit me. But my favorite part of the episode was Mick's surprisingly sophisticated and nuanced address of the "issue." I think you guys just nailed it. Not that it's ever going to get put to bed, but that was a very zen moment in the discussion.
I'm really glad you brought up the ethics discussion. From my take on it, the art is in the layout; the design of the printed circuit board can be considered protected legally. Concerning the circuits themselves, if you are just swiping a schematic online and laying it out and making pedals, you just are not offering anything and are in the unethical realm. Taking ideas from other circuits and coming up with your own is completely different from that. Let's face it, a common emitter transistor circuit is just like any other with a few values tweaked, you can't lay legal or ethical claim to that. An IC based buffer is just input to the + and feedback the output to the -, that's just electronic theory, not copying someone else that did it before. That being said, I've copied from online schematics and made original PCB layouts for many pedals because I'm learning how to make them. I use some of them on my pedalboard and I see no ethical issue with that. I, personally, would not be able to sleep at night if I were to produce and sell them though as they are direct copies. I've not cloned a Timmy and I understand Paul Cochran's gripe completely. Interesting topic. Thanks.
Much better job on the Timmy guys :-) I'd also add that the Timmy's opamp is socketed. The stock 4559 chip is pretty glassy but someone wanting sweeter tones can also swap that out for a few cents. I've always run an LM1458 in mine but a TS style 4558 would sound girthier and more AMP-11 ish should that be what someone wants..
Awesome. Which pedal choice? All.:) Current amp11 happy owner. It excels at mid range fat tones. I use way less gain on the amp11 than what you guys showed, because the boost adds great dynamics and in conjunction with a dirty Marshall amp = happiness. Lots of variety in each players set up and settings. Nice you guys went nuts on these boutique pedals. We boutique nerds are a happy bunch.
My OCD died on my pedalboard last week and & couldn't find a Timmy to try in a local store so I bought one via a world-dominating online behemoth. I'm usually don't buy pedals without trying them first, but based on your demonstration I'm willing to take the leap and give it a try. I wish I had the budget to sample the number of pedals that appear on your show!
Returning to this subject it gets more interesting the more you learn. I really like originals, they've got some mojo. But then there's stuff like Klon that's really not made for customer to just get your hands on it, either really unavailable and expensive (I understand the original designer now makes it in small and very expensive batches under a different brand) or sold used and costs a fortune because of the rarity and demand. At that point you think "I want the sound and that money doesn't even benefit the designer" and look for clones. For example analogman king of tone, you wait YEARS to get one. It's still cheaper than buying a used one even if it's not discontinued. He asks for ~$250 + extra features which is very reasonable (of course you pay almost 100 for taxes when you ship it to europe though) and I just saw one sell for almost 400 euros in a flash when it was listed. Just because it was available right away, not having to way 2,5 years for example. At that point you start thinking "could I sacrifice some of the tone and my integrity for a copy that costs $200" for example, just because you could actually get to play it before you forget the whole thing and your tastes change. Then there's cases of completely discontinued products where you basically have to copy it to get the sound and the designer gets nothing no matter what way you acquire the sound (original or copy). And lastly stuff that does the thing, but does more, like Tumnus Deluxe being the next step from Klon, a lot more up to date to today's standards in features and adaptability. Something that doesn't really belong to this topic, but what might influence people on making copies or looking for options is when the costs don't get higher in making a product, but since its demand is higher, the manufacturer can ask bigger prices. Just recently read about Power Boost in gilmourish.com, about how once it was £85 on the counter and the guy behind the counter thought it was priced a bit high, adding that they make it in the very shop themselves. Some years later when it caught interest it's £299. Obviously price is also a way to balance interest with production capabilities when the demand gets too high, and the price allows you to keep the business relatively small when you don't have to hire a group of people (that have expenses) who have to go when the interest dies out.
Companies have been copying each other for years and evolving their products slightly which is how you get change and growth. Some do this overtly to leverage the marketing of the original. Others copy and modify slightly to use it as a description. Hoover used to be the generic name for vacuum cleaner. Tube screamer is a type of overdrive. Some may be closer, some further from the generic. Personally, I have a Chinese variant of the Timmy which I got without knowing what it was based on and which actually made me look at buying a real Timmy in the future (Mine doesn't have the little switch). I tried 5 different overdrives for $100 to find what works for me - then found out that my favorite is based on the timmy Now I'm looking at a King of Tone style pedal which I'm likely to modify - nothing huge -just a treble cut switch and pot at the end of the chain and a bass cut at the beginning. - that's like a Timmy EQ KOT. Ethically, who should I give credit to? Marshall, Cochrane, Analogman?
Even though I'm not really into pedals I find this show compelling and fascinating because its like a microscope on guitar\amp tone. Here's my question on this obsession with clean/uncoloured boost tones. Doesn't a good quality amp combined with a modern guitar with coil splittable/tappable pickups and improved tone electronics mean we can easily get all the clean boosted/overdrive tones we need with nothing in between guitar and amp. Haven't guitarists shot them selves in the foot over the last decade or two in lusting after guitars that have been dragged at the back of a truck round a car park for a couple of hours and then getting 2K added to the price tag (I'm completely guilty myself). An electric guitar is nothing without an amp and vice versa unless you view guitars as an investment rather than a musical instrument. Can't amp makers and guitar makers combine their skills and move guitarists from the 1950's into god forbid 2016 and beyond. YES!!! I know the elephant in the room is very old valve technology with amps which i why I'm asking this question. Why do guitarists seem to look backwards instead of forwards?????
the copying stuff is a red herring I've worked in software since 82 everyone builds on ideas, mine are added to someone else's which are then in turn improved / changed by another developer whose additional work has then sparked new ideas. it's cyclical trying to lock down every thought/idea with ownership doesn't work because that idea doesn't exist in a vacuum. love the show keep innovating and being the best :)
Great show as always, absolutely agree with what you guys said about the copy side of things! Am blown away by how reasonably priced the Timmy is. Could be a future pedal after everything else I want/need
I’ve never heard of the Timmy before when you guys started playing it I was impressed but I really wanted to see the Jan-ray I had never heard one and I’ve heard all about how it’s the best pedal ever but that Amp-11blew them both out of the water in my opinion that pedal is jaw-dropping tone when you used it in the “waiting for the king of tone” video and in this one both times I just sat there and was like that’s rock God level of tone in a box. That’s the kind of pedal when you buy it you don’t want to play it because you want to get better at guitar to use it because of how amazing it sounds. It’s addicting to listen to I can only imagine what it sounds like in person
+GinoMarks It’s a great pedal Gino. They all are in fact, and finding that one that works for you is where the good playing lies. Cheers and thanks for watching!
Thanks for the always awesome demos and the honest conversation. You guys are great! How about trying some really high end boutique pedals and giving your opinion. Something along the lines of Paul Trombetta and such. I know you are big KOT fans, but it would be nice to see some other real high end stuff. Thanks!
Good stuff, guys. I myself avoid blatant copies of currently made stuff, but if a pedal is either out of production or has evolved into something audibly or materially different to its original form then IMO it's fair game. This goes for guitars & amps too.
Great video again guys. I stacked a Jan Ray with a Lovepedal Eternity the other day and it blew my mind literally. (I don't own the Jan Ray unfortunately)
Late comment, but I just received a new Timmy today and played with the Tele for a a while. Man, totally awesome pedal and is now officially on the board. Also, sold to me new for $129.99. Great pedal for a great value. I had no idea about the circuit copy stuff, but geez $400 vs $130? No brainer for the tone the Timmy provides. The Nobles ODR-1 is also a great buy if so check that out too.
great way to bring logic and fact to what is usually an argument based on emotion. I work in IT. IT is focussed on patents and law suits. If Keeley made iphones Apple would sue or change their phones to stop his mods. Rock on.
Wonderful show and I appreciate you addressing the ethics of the pedal world with class and honesty. I loved watching you guys rock the Timmy! I've got a Tim and LOVE it for all the same reasons you love the Timmy.
Great show as usual guys.Can we please hear a bit more from Dan's Gretsch: You always take the time to demo the response difference between single coils and humbuckers (though I suspect that Maurice has a point in that you don't always dial in a good humbucker setting after switching from singles coils). However, there are more and more people playing out on filtertrons, especially with the rise in popularity of La Cabronitas, though Reverend, Yamaha and others are putting out filtertron based designs along side Gretsch. When it comes to it, filtertrons are a different thing; there are three main points in the pickup spectrum, not just the two end points. It would be good to hear your masterful licks on some of this gear through all three. Cheers.
HI GUYS the TC SPARK has a toggle switch that does some of the same things the timmys toggle does i.e clean boost mid boost [compressed] and fat boost.
I'm trying to build a Timmy from a kit. It'll work out at about £28 instead of £400 for a v2. I don't like the MXR version. I just love the sound you're getting out of your version of it!
Thanks for your swift reply guys, ace! Yeah I get that used to have a board full, I liked the Boss stomps and had a rack mount Roland for a awhile that was fun?! I have a strat copy with Seymore duncan's in, A Les Paul jnr with humbuckers that are fat, and a dreadnought Sakura acoustic - my main axe. and my own recording set up at home, putting my stuff on Soundcloud. Great work, carry on!
Wow, very diplomatic of you Mick, you managed to say all that without mentioning a company that may or may not share initials with John Hornby Skewes. Great show as always fellas.
Yes the pedals are high quality and sound good. Some of them are original circuits some are just expensive component clones (like the AC vs MI Audio Crunch Box). Unfortunately JHS also directly funnels money into a very publicly anti-LGBT church. It's not a hidden conspiracy either; it's all very out in the open. If you feel comfortable supporting that cause, more power to you, but personally I am not. If it helps you sleep at night you can brush it off as me lying with doing your due diligence like your comment suggests you will but you might also just take a cursory look into it and make your own decision.
+Jason T. Wasn't really a rant. I wasn't mad, just stating the extremely high quality. Calm down, buster. Just because it's UA-cam doesn't mean you HAVE TO be angry in the comments. And the people of Africa? I'm not sure I follow.
Caleb Neff I guess their extremely well documented support of anti-homosexuality legislation abroad doesn't count for you then? rather than continue down a laundry list they've accumulated for themselves, I'll just wish you the best rationalizing your JHS purchases are you rabidly deny their church's stance AND the fact that they've been caught stealing other people's circuits red-handed. sorry but if you want me to change my mind it would help if you had any evidence because I don't even have to go past a documentary you can find in about 10 minutes.
+Caleb Neff You entered this thread with a "Anybody who disagrees with my opinion is ignorant or a liar" comment. You deserve all the heat you are getting.
![Why We Love Low-Gain Overdrive [And So Do You!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MtBb2oCu8dE/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why We Love Low-Gain Overdrive [And So Do You!]](/img/tr.png)
This show is much more than just a show about pedals for me. My dad was just diagnosed with cancer and I'm struggling to find the joy in my guitar playing and gear. You guys give me that entertainment I need to take myself out of my own head. You guys do great work- thank you.
+Dennis Yacono Wow. If we're just a tiny part of making things easier or better for you, we are deeply humbled. All the best to you and your Dad, Dennis!
That Pedal Show always cheers me up too... I can always watch previous shows for a laugh or to try to learn a bit more... Tough times for me too and the show is a pick me up, always
I agree! I have serious health issues that have stopped me from playing with my band the last few years. I've always been a gear junkie, and really enjoy your videos. I really like listening to you guys digging in and really putting these pedals through their paces. But I also like the fact that you seem to really like each other, and have a genuine passion for tone like I do. I'm 51 and been doing this a long time, I've built and modded my own pedals, do all the wiring in my guitars etc. But I still learn new stuff watching your videos. It really makes my day watching you guys, and I trust your opinions on the gear as well. Too many other channels are just shills, and the pedal they're testing is the best one ever, until the next demo.
Please keep doing what you do, feels like I'm watching friends even though we've never met.
Thanks
Dude I’m so sorry... I hope u write some songs in the future. I can be your hype man
D-bAll - I hope all is well
I understand where you guys are coming from. The Jan Ray debacle was different, though. There's plenty of pedal makers out there that acknowledge where a circuit comes from and they sell you their take on it. EQD sells the Palisades as the ultimate TS pedal. There is no hiding its origin. The marketing (and price difference) comes from the additional options and the upgraded components they offer. What the Vermuram people did was super shady. They took a Timmy circuit, changed the chip and other values, then charged people almost 4 times the amount of a new Timmy. And they sold it proudly as an original design with years of research and development. And they added goop to cover the circuit. As far as I am concerned, no Vermuram pedals for me. Ever.
This exactly. People are not taking issue with imitations or clones. Vemuram had claimed they put 3 years of original development into the Jan Ray. They lied, they were dishonest. And when it was revealed and the forums blew up, they continued to be dishonest.
The issue wasn't around cloning, it was around dishonest practices. And you see this a lot from small pedal companies. No guitar company makes a strat-type guitar and says it's an all new model. Amp companies, it's usually clear what classic amp they're based on. Small pedal companies though, they often lie in marketing to get ahead. From Vemuram, Vertex, Blackeye Effects, etc...
When companies lie, consumers lose the ability to make good decisions. Dishonest companies, companies that want to make a profit by lying to its customers, should be avoided.
Yeah, fuck Vemuram. They totally screwed over Paul Cochrane. I won't even address Lovepedal's clone. I have always thought his pedals were overrated though.
Dude, before you keep on bashing the Vemuran Jan Ray, may I ask you a question: have you ever tried one? Clone? Maybe. Pricey? Oh yes. But before we go further, please do yourself a favour and plug a les paul into a Jan Ray and let's continue the discussion from there. It's a very good pedal IMHO.
No one's disputing it's a great pedal. It's a freakin great pedal. But so is the Timmy. Jan Ray is a very slightly modded clone.
And no one's saying you can't clone pedals either. Vemuram could have said, "based on a certain pedal" and no one would have an issue with it. Or they could have opted to not say anything at all! But they said it took 3 years of original development. That's a deliberate lie.
We shouldn't let companies just lie to us. That's bad for all of us who are into pedal and gear. We should let the market know that we want honest business.
Clone? Not maybe, a definite yes. Pricey? 4 times the original, yes. Dishonest, shady company? Yes.
Again, a very good pedal. But a very dishonest shady company.
OK, I understand. I did not care so much for the builder's reputation. We all know the Klon Centaur story and the horrible hype. Even if it is a Timmy clone, it does sound better (or different) than the Timmy IMHO. Some people said horrible things about Josh from JHS too. Well, nobody knows the truth but he is a great builder too, that's a fact.
Suggestion: Love every episode, but I think it'd be interesting to have a "Better Rhythm Tones For Everyone" much like last week's episode. Something for all of us rhythm players!
Bad Captain great idea
The Cochrane Timmy is absolutely amazing! It's an essential pedal in my rig and have one on every board. I run it always on and love it's tonality and versatility.
Since I first watched this (the day it aired), I've acquired a Tim pedal and am now awaiting delivery of a Big Box Amp Eleven. I'm so excited. I don't care if they are similar or not..... I'll set them differently and have plenty of gain range to enjoy! I'm glad you guys are still around my weekly UA-cam feed. Keep it up!
Hats off to you guys for tackling the moral/ethical issues surrounding these pedals. You handled that with class, intelligence and sensitivity to your community. You could have easily avoided this but that would be taking a deaf ear to your audience. I realize I'm five years late to this conversation but bear this in mind, each one of your shows send me (and probably all of us) on extensive journey's learning more about the pedals you feature. This is me just working my way back in history. Well done.
Ah, thanks so much Marc 🤓🙏
Love your vids guys! You've rescued my tone beyond all belief by making me think about my pedals and how they work with the amp and guitar I use. Keep passing on the knowledge, as I believe every guitar player should watch these videos before they start gigging: you're doing the whole world a service!
You ole blokes are great,
really have been helping me nail the sounds im after!
Thanks fellas
I think the issue people had with Jan Ray, including myself to a point but not really, because I have the power of the purse and I can choose to support and buy it or not support and buy it, but the issue is Jan Ray claimed that it took 3 years of R& D and now here is the pedal at an astronomical price as opposed to just saying, here is our take what the Timmy pedal should have been. We liked the pedal and we thought we could improve it and here it is at twice the price. The latter there would be acceptable because it's honest and although people can cry ethics there, this is the case of how life works and how things get improved. However to say we did 3 years of R&D and now pay over 3 times the price of the Timmy adds a new layer of being disingenuous and therefor turned people off. Personally, I own 3 Timmy pedals that I have on my 3 boards and I love it and could no way see a value trading them in for one Jan Ray when personally I don't think they even differ that much. I think it was Blankenship who said there hasn't been an original amplifier idea since 1965 and he is probably right, but you don't see Victoria Amps saying they spent 3 years designing their 4x10 amp only to find its a Bassman Clone. Everyone rips off everyone, its the spin after that I think gets Jan Ray into hot water, not the actual act. Anyway, love your channel guys, always entertaining. Cheers.
Mick's playing is always so damn good. I'd love a straight up Tubescreamer/Klon/Timmy/Zendrive/JTM-45-style-pedal (Rockett .45 Calibur?) comparison video. Just one of each pedal and then watch you two compare all the different flavors.
Great show again guys. I've been using a Timmy for years, and it's one of the few pedals that was always on my board. It works great with either a Mesa Rectifier of a small Fender Champ. A classic pedal IMO, and still, a LOT of people are not aware that this great pedal exist.
+Jonathan Veillette cheers J, hopefully we've made a few more aware ;)
So glad you guys spent a bit more time showcasing the Timmy. I felt you kinda glossed over it last time. It is such a great pedal in front of a Marshall and deserves all the praise that it gets
+Nigel Woodward It was long overdue Nigel! We got there in the end. :0)
An interesting point, I think, that many people do not bring up when talking about these "stolen circuits" is that with even the SLIGHTEST variation in circuit design, the pedals can, and will react differently when paired with other pedals, amps, guitars, etc. You can't tell from a schematic what the slightest variation will create when combined with what is essentially an infinite amount of gear combinations. That is not to say, (as you guys mentioned) that there aren't moral implications of even starting your design process with another designers circuit...but, how many tube screamer variations do we love SPECIFICALLY because of the way that individual pedal sounds in OUR rig. Anyway...thanks so much for all the great videos. Your combination of information and humor is much appreciated. Keep up the great work, and thank you.
p.s. I've got a TIMMY on my board, and wouldn't dream of parting with it.
Hey Dan and Mick!
Interesting to see how Mick felt like the more compressed setting on the Timmy somehow had a Tubescreamer feel.
Regarding the clipping features, I just had a look at some guts and schematics and in fact the compressed setting has the exact same diode configuration as the TS (2X silicon diodes), the Asymetric has the exact same as the Boss SD1 or Lovepedal Eternity (3X)and the middle stock setting the exact same diode configuration as the Marshall BB (4X) or the Analgoman KOT(similiar).
I think it is a very interesting, flexible and innovative design. Great job from Paul. Hopefully there will be some nice smart designs as this one coming from new pedal companies.
Regarding the Timmy VS Jay Ray, the difference really lies on the Treble knob (same goes for the Amp11).
With the Treble all the way on the Timmy you get all the guitar frequencies trough which is great for a clean boost use, but with the Jay Ray you still get some top end cut out. In other words, you could match their high end by having the Jay Ray Treble knob all the way up and the Timmy slightly down. The Timmy is more flexible in Compression, Gain and EQ, I don't see any improvements from Vemuram to the circuit personally.
s76.photobucket.com/user/IvIark_2006/media/Layouts/Schematics/Timmy%20Jan%20Ray.gif.html
I’ve used the Timmy for years and haven’t found anything that’s beat it. I’ve also spoken with Paul C. briefly and he was a gentleman. I’ve bought 3 and will buy more in the future if needed. Long live Paul and the Timmy!
Timmy does it best. With more options. Paul Cochrane is a top notch fella. He’s repaired my footswitch on my Timmy twice for free because I use it so much! I kind of hate that he contracted out to MXR. Don’t get me wrong, MXR is great but the Paul C. Timmy is just too legendary to have the MXR badge on it.
I just saw a classified ad for a local pedal maker, TL Pedals. He's building a dual overdrive where one side is a Klone and the other side is KOT copy.... He calls it the King Klon. For $250. I'm intrigued. Neither of those pedals was within my grasp financially; now I can get both in a single housing for $125 each and support a local builder in the process. Now I just have to find a way to hide $250 from my wife.
That Super Reverb. Straight in. What a sound!!
The Amp 11 is by far one of the best sounding ODs ever made. I never take it off my board, and I rotate out a ton of pedals. It's just that damn good. Between the Plimsoul and the Amp 11, I have two spots that are nearly always the same. But I still want a Timmy :)
This show is another reason to look forward to Fridays.
I just picked up a Timmy on Reverb... really excited to get it!
I've had the Amp 11 Platinum on my board for 1.5 years... Love this thing..! Brings out the best in my amps..! 👍🍻😊🇺🇸
That was very well done. I've been interested in the Timmy for Vox AC15C1X and the switch demonstrations were outstanding. The sound and feel differences did translate into the audio of the video. Outstanding job getting those subtleties across in regards to compression. Thank you.
+Chris Alan Hicks cheers C :))
These videos are such easy viewing. Perfect.
Need to do a new video with the MXR Timmy. Also demo the Timmy running into another OD.
Like a TubeScreamer. Killer sound!
Just got the MXR Timmy a week ago and I’ve barely turned it off. Stacking it with my other drive pedals makes so many great sounds. Being able to clip the highs and lows makes it so great to tweak.
That Pedal Show is helping me so much. I ended up with a bunch of randomly bought, mismatched pedals, purchased in my teens and early 20s. I've sold all of them on and I'm starting again. More educated and taking my time in selecting things that work together. First stop for my Strat setup- a good compressor.
+Chris Turner Great stuff Chris. We are proud to be your companions on this journey. It never ends - so it may as well be fun, right?! Thanks for watching!
That Pedal Show Absolutely. I'm giving myself limits though. Only allowed what can fit on a Pedaltrain Nano. I think that will make me really think it through and not impulse buy. Luckily my Blackstar amp has decent reverb and delay, so I won't have to worry about that.
the like:dislike ratio on these videos is always insane - great work!
+scaynes cheers matey
Once AGAIN fellow noodlers/pedal lovers and teachers of sonic truth and deliverers from wasted $$$ in the search for rig righteousness ... you entertain, enlighten and enthuse our hearts....... you're greatly appreciated and valued by this yank..
When seeing what new UA-cam content is available on any given day.. and your video is there... I pick YOU !!!
+Letzrockitrite cheers L, epic comment :)
I've just bought a Timmy. Thanx guys!
Hi. Where do you buy it? I don’t find one!?
Thanks in advance!
@@diejacks7645 Just go on Reverb. There are quite a few not too expensive.
I loved the Amp 11 with the LP. BIG SMILE.
I look forward to Fridays now because I learn so much from you guys! I'm also glad that you guys use the boutique/high quality equipment. There are plenty of folks showcasing the "affordable" stuff. I'd definitely be interested in another run of Carpe Diem pedals if it's not too much of a hassle getting it to America!
Thanks again guys, keep the videos coming!
The Timmy is my favorite Pedal. Gain full on with Timmy over my Fender Blues Junior III, zero humming noise! The Timmy beats Wampler's Dual Fusion by far in terms of hum noise! The Timmy is really fantastic!
Revisiting. I'm happy to see Paul is about to release a V3 Timmy with some exciting enhancements. I'm sure he'll knock it out of the park.
It's available tonight
Me too, Mick - had to have the Timmy. Long ago, maybe as far back as the 1990's, Joe Ely and David Grissom performed on Austin City Limits. Grissom's sound was GIGANTIC - overdriven yet clear. I have looked since then to find a pedal that would get that vibe. Timmy!!!
Well considering the Jam Ray is £339 and I got the New 15th anniversary V3 timmy shipped from the states for £154, I'd say the Timmy is the easy winner here!
I discovered your channel this year and have been massively enjoying alot of your videos. Just came to watch this and realized how young yall look 5 yrs ago haha
I like to think the people who create and produce are rewarded for their contributions. Not always in this world.
Great show guys. One thing worth mentioning about the Timmy is that the Bass rolloff is pre-gain and the Treble is post-gain.
I love my Timmy, like Mick I use a Strat (American Deluxe) into a 65 Deluxe reissue. Divine. On my board I have TS808HW into a Timmy into an EP Booster. I like to think of it as the Trinity of ODs. ;) It was initially a little difficult to find the best sound from the Timmy but once you find it it's great. That Amp 11 also sounds super!
Mark Peskett how have you set the timmeh?
I like this trend of low gain pedals that we're seeing now. The Timmy is a very useful pedal with the different clipping options and cut EQ controls. I thought all three pedals sounded great. The main reason I like them is that I can get that cranked amp sound at any volume.
I'm a happy owner of a Tim mk1 and I absolutely love this pedal. I found it a a pawn shop and I tried it on a solid state line6 and I immediately knew I needed it. it's replaced my Xotic RC boost. none other like it.
Myself I liked the Amp 11
Another fantastic Friday. I do look foreward to the insights that are given as well as the manner they are delivered. I will never be a professionally compensated player; however, playing is an intergral part of my life and my primary hobby. I appreciate the fact that you two trade professionals put time and effort into providing (for what appears to be no tangible compensation) a hack like me thoughtful presentations that inspire me to play more. Spot on delivery and judiciously honest commentary as always. Thanks again guys.
+Scb Lds Thank you for that Scb. You've summed up why we do this and we're totally stoked that you feel inspired! That is the whole point.
We won't shy away from TPS being a commercial entity in time (via merch, donations, events etc), but it will NEVER involve taking money from manufacturers to feature stuff. Thanks for watching!
Sweet demo guys. You've helped me iron out quite a few kinks in my rig👍🏻
Being a pedal junkie, I usually don't like a lot of talking during a demo, but you guys are really entertaining. You both are killer players too. I'm so glad that I subscribed.
I think Mick pauses longer than William Shatner at times. ;)
could have been a 10 min video
Very timely as my Timmy shipped today. Worth to mention the price - Timmy is not a big bux pedal - retails for about $120US.
Once again. Pedals that sound identical. Thanks for the sounds, and episodes.
I think the reason people take so much offence at the Jan-Ray is the bullshit he sold it under, talking about all the years of research he had put into it when it was a very obvious Timmy clone. I put that to the side and tried one out. Didn't do it for me. Really want to try a Timmy out.
Great video though. Cheers guys.
Don't forget the goop. They gooped it like Finnegan did with the Klon Centaur. Except that this was a blatant Timmy clone, selling for almost 4x the price.
LoL!!! You are right Aron Otega!! Klon is a blatant Timmy/Tim clone. Perhaps, that is why the internal Klon circuit board is all covered with "goop" to conceal the Tim/Timmy forgery.
Timmy has always sounded muddy no matter who plays with one, can't see why it's such a big deal
+racerx3065 Rubbish!
Love fridays thanks Mick & Dan, as always really interesting video. Bought a Timmy sometime ago haven't been disappointed. Jan Ray if you can find one is almost twice the price of the fabulous Timmy.
Love the banter and musings.
You should do the OD11
I use the original Amp 11, bluish color, almost always on for a bit of grit. Use the boost or a Wampler Euphoria for solos stacked with it. Had a Tim but sold it. Had KoT but sold it. Had OCD but sold. Still have a Fulldrive but is on my backup board. Tele into a silver face 1975 Princeton Reverb. Occasionally mix in a Pigtronix micro germanium compressor.
It is very difficult to earn a U.S. patent in electronics because most of electronics is derivative. It is difficult to design a circuit that does not owe a debt of gratitude to other designs. If you think of an original design, it is probably not as original as you imagine. This issue has also come up in the software industry. For this reason, the legal system is the final arbiter because it is well experienced with the nuances of the arguments. In light of that, those snoopers who reverse engineer circuits by tracing them and modifying them are not really unethical though they may be an annoyance to the producer who is being copied.
A friend of mine designed an innovative mic preamp, and he hired a patent lawyer in order to patent the design. The lawyer suggested, "Just produce your preamp and put it on the market, and forget about a patent." because he was aware of this complexity and its cost.
Small correction (from a nerdy electronics and signals engineer):
when you have asymmetrical clipping, it's not that you have either the positive or negative side clipped.
Some pedal producer use different diods for the positive half of the signal then for the negative (very common is to use a Ge diod on one side and a Si one on the other). OR you could have two diods on either one of the sides and just one on the other.
good coffee and "that pedal show" ...my absolute favorite way to start the day
How cool to hear the riff from “My Heavy Friend” by that awesome Aussie band, The Truth!! Nice one Dan. And another great video helping me on my quest for choosing an overdrive.
The issue with the ethics bit is there is a gap between what boutique, innovative pedal makers need to charge in order to be sustainable, and what the average person can afford to pay if they want a half decent board. I would LOVE to own a Gigrig G2, but the amount that you need to charge Dan to make a living is more than I can afford, so I ended up with the Boss es-8. Its an unfortunately reality of the differences between the innovators and the mass producers.
+Dominic Goss yep, well said D :)
I am saving for a Gigrig G2, as my need is not immediate (in fact, I only have one of the pedals on my list). I think the price difference between Dan's product and the ES-8 is quite reasonable, as the Gigrig G2 is much more capable and versatile than the ES-8. My only concern regarding Dan's pricing is that there is no product listing for a Gigrig G2 without a Generator, for those of us who would like to build a board with Dan's modular power supply and add a Gigrig G2 when funds allow.
+Robstafarian cheers Rob, the Generator is included for free, it's so important to power G2 with a supply that's up for the job. But if you already have our power system just email and we'll sort something out for you. :)
That Pedal Show That is very good to know! I look forward to starting my board with your fantastic power system.
But Paul Cochrane makes it for very cheap compared to similar overdrives, and is his main source of income for a single man operation. Vemuram just copied his circuit and charges way, way more.
At 24:52, Mick says "I think that's one of the best sounds we've ever had in this room." He's referring to the Lovepedal Amp Eleven?
After watching this video and hearing the Amp11 Lovepedal, I decided to try one. Up to that point, I had been through Fulltone Fulldrive 2, OCD, Bondi Sick As and J Rockett Archer and I just couldn't be content. Something was missing. However, the search is over: the Lovepedal is amazing! Thanks for introducing me to it.
+Christopher Claxton Excellent, nice one Chris. Thanks for watching!
Are the Fulldrive and OCD quite different? I own an OCD, but have never tried a Fulldrive. I always wondered if I should buy one because I thought they were similar.
Bravo gents!
I know it's That "Pedal" show, but this episode really made me think about all the different flavors of pickups that were demo'd. Maybe in an upcoming episode you can talk about the technical and tonal differences between all the different types you use (single, lipstick, humbucker, P90, filtertron, foil).
awesome video as always.. i think the difficulty with the copy thing is that, some times the copy is either better, or has more flexibility or has been improved in some way. Take the Big Muff video from a while back, after that i really want a Thorpy muffroom cloud and not a real big muff; its got more options and a smaller footprint... absolutely if id have come up with it, then i'd be really upset if someone was copying my idea, but that's life and progress unfortunately... We defiantly need a video comparing amp's at some point (Marshall, VOX, Boogie, Fender etc) as that's the foundation talking about amp characteristics that a lot of your video's cover; just for us who haven't had the luxury of playing amps side by side and hear / understand the differences. thanks
That is a good point. Making an improvement and offering an option does cause the circuit to become, as a whole, a new entity.
And what's a "real" Big Muff becomes a question with old popular circuits like that. A modern EHX Big Muff has less in common with a real Ram's Head era Muff than a Chicago Stompworks Moose Pie Ram's Head clone, for example.
The Thorpy was an amazing standout in that video, and there was obviously also some magical intangible that Dan and Mick were responding to. That said, the modern EHX Deluxe Big Muff Pi is a fantastic pedal; the mids channel alone lets you create almost any muff tone you can imagine. The attack and gate controls, bass boost, and expression pedal interface features stand out as well. Plus, despite all logic and reason, it's made in New York and can be had online for $120.
What Vemuram did is different. They specifically said they spent 3 years of original development in making Jan Ray. False, it's a clone. Pedal nuts like us don't care about clones, things get improved, etc. you're right. But we should care when companies blatantly lie to us for profit.
Previously someone was commenting on how great is JHS quality and i'm sure it is and how amazing is their customer service, i also believe that, i don’t have any experience with it.
Here goes my own experience on TIM (big blue one with boost) vs JHS quality, mostly to defend the TIM because i really like it and i do have a lot of good overdrives and TIM is the one on my pedalboard.
My TIM that i bought second hand in August 2012 for 202.5USD + shipping + taxes (i checked the invoice) after a million gigs without a proper pedalboard, just a wood board with pedals on top. Well it still works like a charm, not even a single problem, not a noise or a bad temper. Works every single time even being now a ball of dust and dirt and it sounds *great* by any standards, 4 years now without any problem, i think we can call this a stompbox. Now my own experience with JHS is unfortunately not good, might be bad luck, bad karma whatever, but i’m done with JHS, at least for now, i did liked their april fool video they did.
Bun Runner around 270USD + shipping and taxes, mint but also second hand, not even passed the try out period, it started with volume going up and down and cutting the sound, is all messed up, too depressing to even bother, is now on a box living with a 40 years old mutron that died last year, the difference is that it hasn’t 40 years. Then i bought a colorbox, new, right when it came out. Waiting to come out, big expectations! 400USD + shipping and taxes. Good news is that it works. Bad news, it arrived with a messed up input jack! A loose jack! A crappy plastic jack that screws with what i guess is a metal nut, not even beheringer style, the jack was striped, metal over plastic is just not a good idea. So what a good fella does in Europe? Right, you replace the jack, you void the warranty and keep playing. Alternative? Well you can spend another 50USD on shipping and deal with customs again, not my thing, is not JHS fault but just too complicated. The customer service i’m sure is good but it is kinda useless when you are not in US. What i expect is: you buy a stompbox and you stomp it for years before it breaks. So, to me, Paul Cochrane is winning here, winning really big and sounding even better. JHS website is much nicer is a fact and their business is much smarter. I also considered to buy a superbolt a couple years ago, glad i didn’t now that i look back, i had build myself a Supreaux Deux way before that and i liked the sound, so when i heard “supro” it catched my attention, i know now that i would be buying the same pedal. A clone of my own clone, would be too weird. JHS is not my only bad experience with pedals. Unfortunately pedals breaking with me just happened with very cheap pedals or really old pedals. Crappy jacks on a 399USD pedal? C’mon make it 400USD and put some decent jacks on it.
you should have a donate link to paypal or something. I'm sure many of us would donate to keep the show going
+Dillon Govender Hi Dillon, thank you for that. If you check the video description text, there's a link to our Patreon page where you can do exactly that. Thanks for watching!
I'd put up with ads too!
I gave a quick look at your patreon page. Yeah, patreon is a great tool, I think you should give it a little more fuel: perks and rewards are a core mechanic of the site and implementing a few should be a great boost!
also, adding a small trailer on that site and here on youtube would be a good move :)
now that my unwanted advices have been given I shall return to my pedalboard :P have a nice day!
I love my Timmy. I still can't believed I found it in a pawn shop for $80CAN. I typically use it if I want a crunch somewhere between my clean tone and the dirty channel of my amp or to get a lead tone on my dirty channel that is louder with slightly more gain but without pushing the mids. I do keep a TubeScreamer style pedal around for when I really want a drastically different tone.
As far as cheaply priced clones go, if that's all you can afford, go for it; but when you can afford the pedal it's based on, you owe it to yourself to check that pedal out and see if you might possibly like it better than the clone. There will be some differences... The clones, in my experience, get you close ; but seldom are they identical sounding.
Haven't read all comments.... but according to PaulC's Facebook he's bringing the Tim back into production & updated hopefully this year!
Great stuff guys! Loved your little spiel on Matt Schofield haha! Cheers from New Zealand
I really liked the amp eleven. I think that might be my next pedal.
Also I though that Timmy was a reference to southpark.
Definitely South Park a Brit should now better. For shame !! LOL
I've not tried the other ones, but I own the 11amp and it's awesome. I'm in love with it.
+Coy Combs Matt Stone and Trey Parker are massive Python fans... Wouldn't be surprised if they are making a reference :)
Yeah I just bought one because of this video. :)
Nope, Monty Python!
I think this was my favorite episode yet! Loved all the pedals, but I have to say while I like my Jan Ray "clone of a clone of a clone" that I built myself, I really love the Timmy here also, and think I need to get one. Lovepedal did not suit me. But my favorite part of the episode was Mick's surprisingly sophisticated and nuanced address of the "issue." I think you guys just nailed it. Not that it's ever going to get put to bed, but that was a very zen moment in the discussion.
+monkey dangus Thank you! Mick has a history of surprising sophistication. Zen, not so much but hey, we can't have everything. Cheers!
I'm really glad you brought up the ethics discussion. From my take on it, the art is in the layout; the design of the printed circuit board can be considered protected legally. Concerning the circuits themselves, if you are just swiping a schematic online and laying it out and making pedals, you just are not offering anything and are in the unethical realm. Taking ideas from other circuits and coming up with your own is completely different from that.
Let's face it, a common emitter transistor circuit is just like any other with a few values tweaked, you can't lay legal or ethical claim to that. An IC based buffer is just input to the + and feedback the output to the -, that's just electronic theory, not copying someone else that did it before.
That being said, I've copied from online schematics and made original PCB layouts for many pedals because I'm learning how to make them. I use some of them on my pedalboard and I see no ethical issue with that. I, personally, would not be able to sleep at night if I were to produce and sell them though as they are direct copies. I've not cloned a Timmy and I understand Paul Cochran's gripe completely.
Interesting topic. Thanks.
Much better job on the Timmy guys :-)
I'd also add that the Timmy's opamp is socketed. The stock 4559 chip is pretty glassy but someone wanting sweeter tones can also swap that out for a few cents. I've always run an LM1458 in mine but a TS style 4558 would sound girthier and more AMP-11 ish should that be what someone wants..
+Realfi great point Realfi :)
thank you these episodes are super helpful ! id have to buy all of these just to get a taste! you make it easy!
Awesome. Which pedal choice? All.:) Current amp11 happy owner. It excels at mid range fat tones. I use way less gain on the amp11 than what you guys showed, because the boost adds great dynamics and in conjunction with a dirty Marshall amp = happiness. Lots of variety in each players set up and settings. Nice you guys went nuts on these boutique pedals.
We boutique nerds are a happy bunch.
My OCD died on my pedalboard last week and & couldn't find a Timmy to try in a local store so I bought one via a world-dominating online behemoth. I'm usually don't buy pedals without trying them first, but based on your demonstration I'm willing to take the leap and give it a try.
I wish I had the budget to sample the number of pedals that appear on your show!
+Nonaligned Videos There are sounds in the Timmy for you. It’s super versatile. Cheers!
Is it just me or what ? The last section with the mahogany guitars the Lovepedal (to my ears anyway) just sounded the best !
Returning to this subject it gets more interesting the more you learn. I really like originals, they've got some mojo. But then there's stuff like Klon that's really not made for customer to just get your hands on it, either really unavailable and expensive (I understand the original designer now makes it in small and very expensive batches under a different brand) or sold used and costs a fortune because of the rarity and demand. At that point you think "I want the sound and that money doesn't even benefit the designer" and look for clones.
For example analogman king of tone, you wait YEARS to get one. It's still cheaper than buying a used one even if it's not discontinued. He asks for ~$250 + extra features which is very reasonable (of course you pay almost 100 for taxes when you ship it to europe though) and I just saw one sell for almost 400 euros in a flash when it was listed. Just because it was available right away, not having to way 2,5 years for example. At that point you start thinking "could I sacrifice some of the tone and my integrity for a copy that costs $200" for example, just because you could actually get to play it before you forget the whole thing and your tastes change.
Then there's cases of completely discontinued products where you basically have to copy it to get the sound and the designer gets nothing no matter what way you acquire the sound (original or copy). And lastly stuff that does the thing, but does more, like Tumnus Deluxe being the next step from Klon, a lot more up to date to today's standards in features and adaptability. Something that doesn't really belong to this topic, but what might influence people on making copies or looking for options is when the costs don't get higher in making a product, but since its demand is higher, the manufacturer can ask bigger prices. Just recently read about Power Boost in gilmourish.com, about how once it was £85 on the counter and the guy behind the counter thought it was priced a bit high, adding that they make it in the very shop themselves. Some years later when it caught interest it's £299. Obviously price is also a way to balance interest with production capabilities when the demand gets too high, and the price allows you to keep the business relatively small when you don't have to hire a group of people (that have expenses) who have to go when the interest dies out.
You guys are just AMAZING!!!! Keep the great videos coming. I look forward to these every week!!
+Tom Snyder cheers Tom, will do :)
Companies have been copying each other for years and evolving their products slightly which is how you get change and growth. Some do this overtly to leverage the marketing of the original. Others copy and modify slightly to use it as a description.
Hoover used to be the generic name for vacuum cleaner. Tube screamer is a type of overdrive. Some may be closer, some further from the generic.
Personally, I have a Chinese variant of the Timmy which I got without knowing what it was based on and which actually made me look at buying a real Timmy in the future (Mine doesn't have the little switch). I tried 5 different overdrives for $100 to find what works for me - then found out that my favorite is based on the timmy
Now I'm looking at a King of Tone style pedal which I'm likely to modify - nothing huge -just a treble cut switch and pot at the end of the chain and a bass cut at the beginning. - that's like a Timmy EQ KOT. Ethically, who should I give credit to? Marshall, Cochrane, Analogman?
That jan-ray sounds killer! I’ll be ordering one soon.
Don't support liars and companies with 0 business ethic.
Even though I'm not really into pedals I find this show compelling and fascinating because its like a microscope on guitar\amp tone. Here's my question on this obsession with clean/uncoloured boost tones. Doesn't a good quality amp combined with a modern guitar with coil splittable/tappable pickups and improved tone electronics mean we can easily get all the clean boosted/overdrive tones we need with nothing in between guitar and amp. Haven't guitarists shot them selves in the foot over the last decade or two in lusting after guitars that have been dragged at the back of a truck round a car park for a couple of hours and then getting 2K added to the price tag (I'm completely guilty myself). An electric guitar is nothing without an amp and vice versa unless you view guitars as an investment rather than a musical instrument. Can't amp makers and guitar makers combine their skills and move guitarists from the 1950's into god forbid 2016 and beyond. YES!!! I know the elephant in the room is very old valve technology with amps which i why I'm asking this question. Why do guitarists seem to look backwards instead of forwards?????
The joke is on Jan-Ray. I just bought a clone of his knockoff. :)
Try stacking a Zendrive-style pedal into a Timmy-style pedal. Bliss.
the copying stuff is a red herring I've worked in software since 82 everyone builds on ideas, mine are added to someone else's which are then in turn improved / changed by another developer whose additional work has then sparked new ideas. it's cyclical trying to lock down every thought/idea with ownership doesn't work because that idea doesn't exist in a vacuum.
love the show keep innovating and being the best :)
Awesome vid again from the dynamic duo!
Great show as always, absolutely agree with what you guys said about the copy side of things! Am blown away by how reasonably priced the Timmy is. Could be a future pedal after everything else I want/need
I’ve never heard of the Timmy before when you guys started playing it I was impressed but I really wanted to see the Jan-ray I had never heard one and I’ve heard all about how it’s the best pedal ever but that Amp-11blew them both out of the water in my opinion that pedal is jaw-dropping tone when you used it in the “waiting for the king of tone” video and in this one both times I just sat there and was like that’s rock God level of tone in a box. That’s the kind of pedal when you buy it you don’t want to play it because you want to get better at guitar to use it because of how amazing it sounds. It’s addicting to listen to I can only imagine what it sounds like in person
+GinoMarks It’s a great pedal Gino. They all are in fact, and finding that one that works for you is where the good playing lies. Cheers and thanks for watching!
Thanks for the always awesome demos and the honest conversation. You guys are great! How about trying some really high end boutique pedals and giving your opinion. Something along the lines of Paul Trombetta and such. I know you are big KOT fans, but it would be nice to see some other real high end stuff. Thanks!
your channel is awesome! greetings from Brazil
I was not expecting Dan's spot-on Timmy impression and laughed hysterically for about five minutes.
+The Digital Horizon hahahaha
Good stuff, guys. I myself avoid blatant copies of currently made stuff, but if a pedal is either out of production or has evolved into something audibly or materially different to its original form then IMO it's fair game. This goes for guitars & amps too.
Great video again guys. I stacked a Jan Ray with a Lovepedal Eternity the other day and it blew my mind literally. (I don't own the Jan Ray unfortunately)
+Andris Bigfoot which was first? I've been stacking loads of things into the JR lately and it sounds fantastic
les paul -- Lovepedal Eternity -- Jan Ray -- amp. Peter Green tone!
Love this show. Always makes my Friday that much better. Only issue is that it makes me want to buy a new pedal each week!
Late comment, but I just received a new Timmy today and played with the Tele for a a while. Man, totally awesome pedal and is now officially on the board. Also, sold to me new for $129.99. Great pedal for a great value. I had no idea about the circuit copy stuff, but geez $400 vs $130? No brainer for the tone the Timmy provides. The Nobles ODR-1 is also a great buy if so check that out too.
great way to bring logic and fact to what is usually an argument based on emotion. I work in IT. IT is focussed on patents and law suits. If Keeley made iphones Apple would sue or change their phones to stop his mods. Rock on.
Wonderful show and I appreciate you addressing the ethics of the pedal world with class and honesty.
I loved watching you guys rock the Timmy! I've got a Tim and LOVE it for all the same reasons you love the Timmy.
Great show as usual guys.Can we please hear a bit more from Dan's Gretsch: You always take the time to demo the response difference between single coils and humbuckers (though I suspect that Maurice has a point in that you don't always dial in a good humbucker setting after switching from singles coils). However, there are more and more people playing out on filtertrons, especially with the rise in popularity of La Cabronitas, though Reverend, Yamaha and others are putting out filtertron based designs along side Gretsch. When it comes to it, filtertrons are a different thing; there are three main points in the pickup spectrum, not just the two end points. It would be good to hear your masterful licks on some of this gear through all three. Cheers.
+Daemon Up to Dan seeing as it's become his. :0)
You guys........this show is getting VERY expensive. I watch, I learn, I laugh.......I purchase more pedals. Knock it off.
+bbmade Sorry! If it’s any consolation it’s ruining us as well. :0)
Timmy is love. Timmy is life.
I'm still probably going to end up with the other two at some point though ;)
HI GUYS the TC SPARK has a toggle switch that does some of the same things the timmys toggle does i.e clean boost mid boost [compressed] and fat boost.
I'm trying to build a Timmy from a kit. It'll work out at about £28 instead of £400 for a v2. I don't like the MXR version. I just love the sound you're getting out of your version of it!
Thanks for your swift reply guys, ace! Yeah I get that used to have a board full, I liked the Boss stomps and had a rack mount Roland for a awhile that was fun?! I have a strat copy with Seymore duncan's in, A Les Paul jnr with humbuckers that are fat, and a dreadnought Sakura acoustic - my main axe. and my own recording set up at home, putting my stuff on Soundcloud. Great work, carry on!
Wow, very diplomatic of you Mick, you managed to say all that without mentioning a company that may or may not share initials with John Hornby Skewes. Great show as always fellas.
Yes the pedals are high quality and sound good. Some of them are original circuits some are just expensive component clones (like the AC vs MI Audio Crunch Box).
Unfortunately JHS also directly funnels money into a very publicly anti-LGBT church. It's not a hidden conspiracy either; it's all very out in the open.
If you feel comfortable supporting that cause, more power to you, but personally I am not. If it helps you sleep at night you can brush it off as me lying with doing your due diligence like your comment suggests you will but you might also just take a cursory look into it and make your own decision.
+Jason T. Wasn't really a rant. I wasn't mad, just stating the extremely high quality. Calm down, buster. Just because it's UA-cam doesn't mean you HAVE TO be angry in the comments. And the people of Africa? I'm not sure I follow.
Caleb Neff I guess their extremely well documented support of anti-homosexuality legislation abroad doesn't count for you then? rather than continue down a laundry list they've accumulated for themselves, I'll just wish you the best rationalizing your JHS purchases are you rabidly deny their church's stance AND the fact that they've been caught stealing other people's circuits red-handed.
sorry but if you want me to change my mind it would help if you had any evidence because I don't even have to go past a documentary you can find in about 10 minutes.
+Caleb Neff what have I created arrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! I love music guys, we all do, let's celebrate that.
+Caleb Neff You entered this thread with a "Anybody who disagrees with my opinion is ignorant or a liar" comment. You deserve all the heat you are getting.