It's brutal to be a gamedev right now...
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- Опубліковано 14 тра 2024
- The gamedev scene hasn't been doing too hot lately, including us. And I am not referring to how it's generally already tough to release an indie game, but what's going on in the world currently makes it even harder.
Layoff overview: publish.obsidian.md/vg-layoff...
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Timestamps:
00:00 The fulltime gamedev dream
02:01 Layoffs
05:20 Publishers
07:32 More competition
10:31 The economy
11:27 What should you do?
13:48 Closing
---
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2024 plans
- [ ] -quit day job-
- [ ] release a game
Hell yes, this is a great comment
- [] profit?
@@mandolorian9893Maybe, but then Step 0 needs to be "Make a Plan"
100% lol. im doing engineering "on the side" (primarily) now to survive.
This should have been the plan from the beginning! ;)
Don´t bet all your horses in living making games if it is your first game.
Try to make games like a side project, having fun and learning, while having a regular day job to pay your bills.
That´s what I do.
So you either have no life, or you'll finish your game in 10 years.
Can't work on the game every single day, only when there´s a free time, but if you are committed to working on the game whenever you have free time (or learning something related to game design) eventually things will work out...
@@neoware9030 You can either waste 40% of your life making this one game as a side project while you work a shitty job to pay your bills and it makes you tired. But really, you should be trying to find a team and funding from the same kinds of sources many other game studios go to. You need someone to fund you so you can get your game out in a reasonable time and see if you can make a return on it. When it comes down to it, it's a big risk and it's one many devs make. However, you could always just apply to a game studio and get hired instead.
Don´t worry, I´ll be okay making games as a side project, not as a priority (I´m more like a artist, but I have some knowledge about programming because I´m a webdesigner at my regular job, but more designer than programmer, but I understand enough about programming to make my games, while I really excel at making art and design, like making characters, animations, promo art logos and hud ux/ui).
I´ll have a prototype until June because I want to show it at a event (Gamescom Latam + BIG Festival... yeah, it´s just one event) in my country, and I´m participating in a few gamejams from times to times to get more experience and meet other developers (sometimes from overseas, since some gamejams are online or local/online mixed up).
I´m not betting about getting a publisher (I alredy talked to a a few ones in the last 2 years, they reached me by social media, but no contract signed, just a few NDAs, but some publishers are keeping contact from time to time to check the progress of my game, since my art is quite okay and I had animation classes way back in 2001), but things can happen, right?
Anyway I´m keeping things as cheap as I can (buying new online courses each month that I use just parts of it to improve the game and using the same software and hardware that I own for some years - 2 computers and a old wacom bamboo from 2013) since I´m self funding my game for now and taking my time to learn and make the games I want to make.
@@user-df5ym9dv5g yup, thats life
My Eyebags evolved to Handbags from making my game at the same time making devlogs for it. 😅
If it's about time, there will NEVER be a good time to make your game 'cause there will be 10,000 reasons to why you shouldn't do it and for most people it's probably true.
There is only one reason to do it anyway, i.e. a game developer is who you truly are.
That is enough. Maybe you will suffer and maybe you will starve and die, So what? Maybe its the same thing you get even if you played safe and never acted on your passion. Have a short life doing what you love than have a long one doing what you don't.
It doesn't mean you have to quit your job, maybe you can only give it an hour a day, or on sundays, maybe your game will take years to complete. Nothing should stop you from starting today, no matter what the market conditions are, you simply don't have enough knowledge to know what is waiting for you.
Reminds me of an old Wayne Dyer saying "No one knows enough to be a pessimist."
Sometimes I tell myself: “No, now it’s definitely not worth starting something, it’s better to wait for a better time.” But then I think again, if I start now, then when the “better times” come I will have more experience and skills, than anyone else who started right now.
Not sure which point of view is correct if anything, but nevertheless
That’s the hard thing about life in general. There is rarely a right time or a perfect moment to follow your dreams. It’s all a risk and you just gotta take the gamble and hope luck is on your side.
completely agree
The point he's making is that it's getting more and more difficult to be a game developer...but also make money from it.
If you've got a day job that you hate...don't assume that you can jack it in, and make the equivalent money from games instead.
The odds are against you.
Of course there's nothing to stop you from making games in your spare time, and hopefully getting a hit, when you've finished your masterpiece.
But that's very different from quitting your day job, and expecting to make games for the rest of your life.
@@Subird Your game that may or may not be in development won't do better or worse just based on 'better times' though. People forget how you really do need to make a good game first. Everything else is really not so relevant. Except marketing of course. But good games tend to stand out more easily. Bad games are dead on arrival.
Quitting a job to be a game dev has to be one of the worst ideas yet, and has been for decades. Unless you've got a windfall saved of 2+ years your monthly needs or is living at home/somewhere they dont have bills, its a rediculous prospect. It seems recently all these people are quitting their jobs/selling their homes/trying to live on savings just to be a game dev. Instead, maybe a take a job that lets you put more time into your dream without sacrificing much income. For instance, I work in a factory. Im working on a game. I took a shift(weekends/overnight) that gives me 4 days a week to work on my stuff. I view a job as funding for the dream.
Don't forget the marketing issue. Even if you've made an excellent game you need to sell it.
You my friend, have earned my subscription.
This channel is a rare combination of technical resources, but also authencity.
Your other video that touched me personally was "Why I don't like other gamedev UA-camrs."
And you make it clear that your channel differs from other gamedev content creators who's soul purpose is to sell you the dream, so that they can get the money to launch their own game.
I respect the fact that you're taking the harder road, and I that others like me will follow suit in supporting creators that are willing to tell us the hard truths of indie game dev, and not just what whatever we want to hear.
I think one key thing is to not get the mindset that you can make a million selling game and live the rest of your life off that. Basically you're adding another income source that may or may not be your primary. Cranking out games can potentially snowball into a decent income but a single game is like buying a lottery ticket.....
It's a brain virus. I have an idea for something that is somewhat of an unknown, could be somewhat popular in its niche (it's a niche but I know that it's a big niche), but could be just another 10-reviews-on-Steam game. I keep the costs and development time down, and I will start checking the interest soon enough. I calculated how many copies I'll have to sell for it to pay for the development (a few hundred, so pretty small), but I still have the "but what if it brings me millions?" thought at the back of my head. Dear brain, last time we talked it was supposed to be a short passion project of yours, can you please stop?!!! Not helping here!
Exactly, too many devs seem to think their first few games will cover whatever income has been lost from the stable career. It's a lottery, only you'll spend way more than the cost of a ticket.
Jokes on you. I’m not even charging anything for my fans because I know it’s too shitty to pay for.
Mobile in a good month sees 10k+ new games in a single *month*, so I LOL at these "too many games on Steam" takes. I think some sober reality is welcome in the indie game scene tho, as the myth of the garage-dev millionaire got way too popular during the pandemic.
If you hate your job, you should find a new one, or consider a new career. But starting a business is not something folks should jump into with "a dollar and a dream".
Nights-and-weekend indie dev is a great way to chase your dreams while keeping a roof over your head. I didn't know it was looked-down upon until I started socializing with indie devs online & locally.
@@mandisaw I definitely do not look down on nights-and-weekend indie devs, it's a shame you've run into that attitude. I admire people who do that!
With over 13,000 titles released on Steam in 2023 alone (35+ new games EVERY DAY), breaking even is harder than ever.
yeah but what you need is to keep updating your game , having a decent MVP and then adding to it as it keeps selling is much better than releasing 5 1 year projects
It honestly isn't that much harder than before, because the barrier to entry is much lower and the market is way huger. 10-20 years ago the market was much smaller, and it was much harder to break into game dev on your own without a team and a publisher to back that team.
Becoming a game dev is easier than ever, but succeeding as a game dev is as hard as it's ever been. Success came easier back when it was harder to get started, and it comes less easy now that it's easier to get started. Overall, in the end, succeeding as a game dev is still something only a few people get to do. This isn't likely to change any time soon, because our very society is designed in such a way that becoming a standout success is always going to be a privilege for a limited few. It will never be easy to succeed as an independent creator.
That number is irrelevant, 95%-99% of those games are low quality, overdone genres and shovelware. The number of quality games, games with over 100 reviews has remained more or less the same over the past few years.
@@sephtv2759 and who do you think is making all of those "overdone genres" and "shovelware"? xD
look at it this way .How many Websites are there?
Some Websites have more Traffic than others.
How many Songs are there?
Any Tangible object will attract more than another.
But Also, I remember reading about the 80s Video Game Crash due to a Overly Saturated Market. Some people emphasize Beginning Devs to just Release a game just for the Hell of it, and there isn't a Focus on Quality.
I would never quit a job and go "full-time developer" till I had a game that was out and making an income and another on the way. This is of course from the perspective of a husband and father of 4 kids so your situation may differ. Instead I would search for a job that supported my goal of being a game developer on the side.
I agree age/exp is a factor here. Lot of folks fell for the dream of making a million in their PJs, but are starting to realize no, it's a real business, in need of actual marketing & serious planning.
No shame in dreaming! A lot of folks jumped into entrepreneurship during the pandemic, not just in games. But day-job-holders outnumber self-employed small business owners for good reason.
Im that person. I chip away at Lorne while working my stable high paying job. I have more important responsibilities to take care of.
Lately i have had a few Lucky streaks though, and progressed a lot wishlist and ks follower-wise
I have no kids or wife but same applies. I wouldn't leave my job without having another source of income to jump to.
Look, in my case: I've been hearing this since 16 (I am 38 now) - on top of the market being difficult, I am from Brazil - we have no gamedev culture here
I've been hearing that the market is full since the beginning and it kept growing, new games, new ideas and it will always be like this - there will be always more competitors.... waiting will not get you at a better scenario. I've waited and now I am 38 yo and trying to learn something I could've learnt more than 20 years ago because i've been listening to this advice.
I will learn it and start making my games, no matter how the market is going right now haha
but thanks btw
Acho que estou nessa situação que tu descreveu.
Tenho 18, acabei de terminar o ensino médio, estudando pra faculdade/concurso, mas sempre gostei e pensei em fazer algo relacionado a desenvolvimento de games. Tenho uma experienciazinha com programação e tal, já me aventurei um pouco pelo GameMaker, mas nunca fiz nada realmente significativo.
Não acho que vale a pena eu me dedicar completamente a isso agora, até porque eu não tenho muitos recursos, mas fazer uns projetinhos no tempo livre e aprender um pouco mais sobre o mercado é um bom começo.
Eu vim pra dizer a mesma coisa meu chapa. Bom saber que não sou o único aqui das quebrada tentando fazer jogos
Challenge accepted! This video just fired me up to prove the "brutal" wrong. Time to focus on the joy of creating and share the journey on UA-cam. Who's with me?
Working since 2013 on my dream and first project (basically all possible errors an inde can make) and going strong!
Your vids are fire bro 🔥 Let's follow this path together! -your new sub
I'm also making my dream game. ohh nooo... 🥲I'm making videos of my progress as well.
@@blackcitadelstudios same here, not for the views, just for myself 😅
@@nerdmassa9086 Bro is lifting weights and creating his dream game for 10 years. MAD RESPECT
I didn't watch the video, but I still felt the need to put this here because of the title.
The world we live in is a competitive one, any argument against game development is valid against any other field out there.
Every entrepreneur making his own content is competing with other entrepreneurs whether it's music, games, or even food selling to the public, there are no guarantees in life. The real tip is, choose your battle, if you chose game dev, be the best at it, make as many excellent quality games that you can, and with each one you make learn and improve for the next one but bear in mind that the world is competitive so you have to be good, or at least better than the other devs out there.
Good luck to everyone getting depressed with yet another depressed gamedev saying it's not worth.
Samurai doesn’t have a destination, only path
I think the focus should be on making a Good Game. Not about money. Make a Good game and live well. We are 6 months in Dev and another year away from finishing. Our followers are growing and so are our orders. Just make something decent and stop listening to the noise.
I find this kind of sincere videos extremely valuable. While mentioned reasoning is not enough to sway my motivation, it keeps me objective and realistic about what to expect.
I wish you luck with your latest project and hope you will succeed.
As someone in an Applied Arts program (film, audio, game) i really hate seeing these things for alot of my fellow classmates. Im an "Adult Learner" and already have 2 career fallbacks. I couldn't imagine graduating last semester and witnessing this economy crumbling.
It's just that the big studios with hundreds of employees don't fire them because fewer games are sold, but because earlier in the industry there was too much money for investment and they started creating too many new projects and hiring too many people, now the investors have left and they can't burn money as before with the hope of a better future. For small developers the times are even better because if a game is successful the numbers can be bigger than ever, example with Pokemon
Honestly, is this the first real video game industry recession? All industries go through it and it will bump back eventually.
It would be like the 5th or 6th since the 80s, but honestly, it's not even a games recession. The industry hit a peak during the pandemic, and has just barely started coming down from that. PC actually got a huge *boost* , in both number of users & money-made.
Mobile and publishers are both challenged by the tighter lending/debt market, and mobile esp is hurt by the drop in ad spending & privacy changes.
So if anything, it's hard if you relied on loans or publishers, but that has never really applied to most indies.
It's the first one since UA-cam has become big I think, and there's a very different view towards indie dev than 20 years ago, when you had some dude named Gary who wrote an entire RPG in Basic and then managed to convince a local brick & mortar game store to sell the CDs he burned himself.
This is definitely not the first recession, but it's the one where the indie scene is one of the biggest it has ever been (in terms of people, idk about $$$). -M
@@bitemegames Indie games never entered retail stores 😅 Those shareware games on disk or CD were either bundled with magazines like PC Gamer, or they were traded/bought at fan conventions & swap meets among enthusiasts.
And it was Assembler & C - BASIC wasn't performant enough for games 😆
@@bitemegames It's not the first since UA-cam either. Indies got big in each wave: "feature phones", then Flash games, then the early smartphone markets, then Steam pre- & post-Greenlight. Each time you got a massive surge of folks entering as commercial or hobby devs, and then when each market dropped, some few stayed, and most fell out entirely.
You could include the rise [and fall] of indies on console too, with Wii Virtual Console, DS homebrew, Switch, and now GamePass, but only a small % of indies even enter the console space, and they usually already have success on other platforms first.
@@mandisaw BASIC was performant enough for simple games even 40 years ago, my dad used to write and sell little BASIC games to Commodore 64 magazines. Back in those days there wasn't really any C for home computers, that didn't come along until the 3D era really. 20 years ago BASIC would have easily been fast enough, that's 2004, we had things like DarkBASIC then.
I really appreciate the reality check a lot of your videos have, this just happens to be a rougher topic to cover. We are running into a lot of the same issues you discuss and while we're in a fortunate situation right now with our team, I know it may not always be the case and want to do the best for our team as I can. I will say it is not too new a thing, but the scale is definitely larger than ever, indie now is just the bedroom coder from the 80s or the shareware boom from the 90s. In my almost 20 year career now I've had game industry jobs and 'regular' jobs, I've worked on a game millions play every day and games no one will ever hear of, and I still want to be indie making games!
I disagree that people would spend less on games on a bad economy.
In the worst place of Africa where people can barely afford to eat, they would buy a TV as soon as they have enough, because they need an entertainment to escape from reality. Same goes for games, people need to escape from real life problem in a worse economy.
You are not wrong, I think the claim is that people will not buy 2 full-price games a month anymore, but will still buy 6 of them a year. Chances that your game is one of them is statistically lower.
This is so bad on so many levels.
Respect for making this video. I have been continuously thinking about this fact when watching gamedev videos. The fact that you are the only one to come out and actually make a video like this shows how strong of a person you are.
I like to think that once we get past this the industry as a whole will be a lot healthier and more mature. Right now it's scary but you have already shown how strong you are.
I appreciate your continued honesty. You are providing some really important perspectives on game development that you can't find anywhere else.
This video seems more like news to me, thanx for sharing.
Even the quality bar for game jams has risen significantly over the past year.
Good to see you'll never give up! You can still make it to next year!😎
30+ games released on Steam per day means that by default any game being released is going into the trash heap.
There is a lot to unpack here.
1. the games market is not in bad shape. Look at the revenue per year. Games are selling and are always selling. Gaming is a relatively cheap hobby and a good escape, it's stable in crisis.
2. If you think your game flopped despite doing everything right, you will never succeed. That is because you are not taking enough opportunity to learn. No one does everything right, and games don't flop just like that. Either you made a game that no one wants or that is just not good.
3. Making games has never been easier. Engines are insanely good, better than ever. The marketing power you get for free via content creators can net you millions and millions of views. That is a relatively novel thing, and has not been an option 20 years ago, probably not even 10 years ago to that extent. If your game does not sell, you made mistakes (like spending years on a game that was dead in the water because it has no interesting concept or no audience).
4. I fully agree that you should not quit your job to make games. Most likely you are not good enough. If you can't make a game in your free time that people want to play, this won't change when you do it full time. There are plenty of excuses, but making a game full time needs a lot of discipline, and if you can't make a small game in your free time, you don't have that.
5. For any gamedevs watching: I know this sounds shitty, but think about who you want to take advice from. I'd probably aim for the people who made and make successful games, because they are doing something right the others don't.
6. Visual quality can be shit if the game is good. Brotato sold millions of units and looks quite bad.
_"Everybody knows you never go full gamedev..."_
I appreciate the honesty. Thanks for sharing! Hopefully GPT-5 can help you turn out quality stuff faster.
what if i already have eyebags in my current job? :/
This is a good note to be aware of, however it’s cyclical, been doing development for 15 years, and it’s just the business. GameDev is part of tech itself and it flows with it. This is a down business cycle yes, but it’ll go back up. While it’s good to be practical, and rationale it’s also important to know that historically there is much reason to be optimistic. If you are working on a game, there will always be buyers if it’s good, and specific to a market that drives interest. I suggest focus on pleasing a core audience, more than widespread appeal to start.
Marketing wins over good games, the day before was the most wishlisted game on steam. Not because it was good lol. People care about the package more than whats inside
@@jaxon_hill the really only true initially. Good games win out, flash only lasts so long. Good games that supported will build out and gain community. Just might take longer but good word of mouth has always been the best for longevity in gaming.
I would be optimistic that thing will get better economically. Look at the standard in the 90s or before. Always a downward spiral of ups and downs. For average people 2020s/2030s will only get worse, no doubt.
I would be optimistic that thing will get better economically. Look at the standard in the 90s or before. Always a downward spiral of ups and downs. For average people 2020s/2030s will only get worse, no doubt.
I would be optimistic that thing will get better economically. Look at the standard in the 90s or before. Always a downward spiral of ups and downs. For average people 2020s/2030s will only get worse, no doubt.
Tell it like it is Bro. It's kinda a crap shoot. I have 12 films written...40 years in traditional sculpture, I can paint, draw, carve , build miniatures ... but it just doesn't matter. There is no guarantee. So you have to do it for you. There are advantages and disadvantages to all this available tech... market is saturated, everywhere. And in everything from film, writing, art, video . There's a gigantic shift happening...but we'll figure it out. It could be the beginning of a 'Golden Age' for indie devs... we'll see what happens. So buckle your seatbelts kids... it gunna be a rough ride. Peace.
I do consider visuals as part of city builders gameplay(well presentation), like just being able to sit there and look at a visually appealing city is sometimes more important than the management aspect. Like looking out over a large garden you grew.
The honesty and transparancy made me subscribe.
Yeah, you are right. Publishers have not answered any of my pitch meeting requests since 2021. They don't even humor me with a meeting.
Do you send them interesting stuff in the mail? I know it sucks but probably they already filter out all the mails that don't contain enough info for a preemptive "yes". I've even seen suggestions for a Steam page with good numbers of wishlists already and a demo, alongside obvious pretty marketing pictures.
@@tymondabrowski12 Yes, I put together full kits, with a copy of the pitch deck, One-pager, design docs with a Q&A section, screenshots, the show page, and video of the gameplay. I've even met some of the publishing reps in-person at conventions too. They feign interest when we are talking but don't answer emails.
I'll try to crowd-source. If that does not succeed, self-funding it is! :)
Have not used a publisher, but they are: 1- specific to genres & regions, so you have to match; and 2- also feeling the crunch of debt being "expensive", so they can't afford risks.
Keep in mind, games/entertainment is a relationship-based industry - ppl really only do business within their existing networks, or at best, with an invite/friend-of-friend. So if you need funding, you're almost better served doing some serious networking than working on your game beyond the v-slice & pitch materials.
@@mandisaw Agreed. I network regularly at GDC, PAX West and other conferences/convention. Of course, the obligatory social media connections as well.
The main video is correct, everyone seems to be in emergency defensive mode. Everything/everyone new is seen as a risk.
They can't stop us from continuing to develop though, so if it is temporary poverty in exchange for getting to keep the entirely of the fruits of our labors, so be it.
Your honesty earned a subscribe from me. Fair play for not being just another huckster.
Whats the back ground theme five minuts in the video also good video mate very educational
Another reason being a flooded market of AI generated crap, a new generation of shovel-ware is on the horizon.
I, as a persom who tries to do everything on my own even if there is a free solution, am kind of crying 😪🙃
AI generated so many sound effects that with a bit of editing are so much better than anything i could make from scratch , as a mainly programmer guy AI has made me do so much more and faster and better quality
As someone that just got into the industry at a small studio last year, im definitely feeling this. Publishers and partners were fighting for lower budgets or extra ownership which ultimately delayed potential projects for months leaving some without work for a while or getting limits on how much they can work on the project.
"Graduating from Game Development School" sounds so unbelievable to realize gamedev hit mainstream to a point of people can casually just study it.
I respectfully disagree with your perspective! Why? It's because the tools available today are unparalleled and incredibly easy to use, mostly even drag and drop! While I hold great respect for you, I must emphasize that you might be unaware of how gamedev tools looked like just five years ago. And also there is my personal example - I embarked on my indie game development journey at the beginning of 2023. By the summer of the same year, I had already released my first game, and guess what? Tomorrow marks the release of my second game! My first game hit 600 wishlists, and despite being featured by numerous multimillion UA-camrs, it didn't quite generate enough revenue to sustain me. However, my upcoming release already boasts 6k wishlists, indicating that I'm improving! I think you are overworking yourself with the youtube, while you have a great momentum it feels like you are less and less happy by every video! Please take some time to rest. Cheers!
His logic assumes that because there are veterans who can make a successful game, suddenly no one else can?
Companies also do not just exclusively hire veterans in the industry. That would bankrupt basically any business. There will always be a need for people fresh out of school or people with no professional experience that have a clear ability to be self driven. They can be trained and do the work for a fraction of the cost.
Also many of the jobs lost are incredibly niche areas that won't affect the average indie dev or student.
@@theebulll I think he is just very tired from THE GRIND. 3 videos a week is something I would never try myself. Honestly its 3rd month Im trying to make my first video... Marnix is a great guy and he knows his stuff well so i think its not bad logic behind this video but bad exhaustion.
@Sweepy_Games I've seen lots of their content and I generally think it is great but exhaustion or not, the game dev community is very much about supporting and pushing each other. Indie dev is already daunting enough and it's easy to feel discouraged and things like this don't help. It's just doom-saying and apocalyptic thinking. Indies have always been competing out of their league, yet they constantly put out great games. I just think this is a bad take and does more harm than good. I also think he's just feeling burned out and frustrated, but I also don't want to see new devs turn away because someone with experience is saying there is no hope right. now.
I think you both kind of missed the point. Having easier to use tools is both good and bad. Bad: because more games get released and competition increases, which is what he said. Same with most creative industries now, actually.
Also, the veteran developers point... I'm not sure where you got your talking point from, but the fact that there are less jobs at studios means it's harder to get a job if you want it. Secondly, you have to compete with jobseekers with more experience than you, both in seeking a job, or in making an indie game. This is also what he said.
Everything has an upside and a downside, and things are only getting more competitive and difficult financially speaking. Most people making games don't earn enough to live off. If it's a hobby and dream, great, but don't let the survivorship bias skew the reality😅 anyway, good luck with your own games and hopefully you make it
@@trueoutlaw13 The number of games released on steam went through a boom about 5-10 years ago and has essentially plateaued since. You aren't any worse off now than 4 years ago.
Really like the look of this. 3D map looks cool too. Just an idea, I would enjoy seeing some random bright cloured particle FX and really decent 8 bit retro music, where possible smooth edges bright colours just to add even more charm to it.
I think two things are coming simultaneously - the barrier for entry is lowering dramatically which is good, but the availability of working in a studio is even more competitive and risky
haha. just had a uni lecture on the layoffs and finding job will be hard for 6/9 months
The GDC Talk from Jake Birkett "How to survive in Gamedev for Eleven Years without a Hit" sound more true than ever. We all love to see the stories from gamedevs that quit their jobs to launch groundbreaking titles such as Hollow Knight and Celeste, but we often forget that for each of those there are hundreds of others that just sink without a single review in Steam.
The most reliable way still is to build an audience, release games (even for free, if that is what it takes), and keep in mind that the grind is still real.
The Spiderweb Software one is great too. Same way that QA is not "Cool, you get to play games all day?!", commercial indie-dev is starting & running a business. It can fun aspects, but if you're betting your / your family's livelihood, you really need to think hard on that first.
@@mandisawI saw the Spiderweb one! That guy was amazing! And an inspiration, and candid and exceptional. He should have been a comedian.
But yes, you can make money in any market. People act like when an economy is bad people stop spending all their money and disappear in a bunker, the the truth is, the market never stops moving. That man demonstrated that, it's all about giving people what they want, knowing how to find them, and being persistent enough to make consistent money.
People act like it's a hits market, only hits win, all else is failure. But guys like him know people still buy instant coffee even when there's a Starbucks. If you sell instant coffee, you can make a livable wage without being the next craze.
To be fair economy in general sucks and 2024 will be a very difficult year, especially in Europe. I work in IT in Germany and the economy is horrible right now, I’ve seen many companies fire complete teams/departments and the trend seems to be continuing
layoffs.fyi shows it all pretty clear. its been a wave of firings since 2021
The economic pain is uneven, and y'all got a hard dose. But Germany was already in a pretty good position to begin with - a lot of places were already in a bad way, and then things got worse 😢
Stateside, we're doing okay on the whole / by comparison. But some regions are doing ok treading-water, while others are sinking below the waves. So the state of indie-dev & the game-consumer is strictly YMMV.
@@nidungr3496 Sure thing Ivan.
Honestly first game dev I've heard mentioning this, so... cheers
The way I see it, you need to be extremely unique. With all due respect to Chris Zukowski getting all the wishlists in the right genre does not help much.
You need to make something so good that it outshines all the other trash.
Marketing wins over good games, the day before was the most wishlisted game on steam. Not because it was good lol. People care about the package more than whats inside
@@jaxon_hill BUT if you make the next minecraft or lethal company. Something fresh and great it will do great even if you dont put effort in marketing
"I don't know if you've been watching these videos but I didn't use to have eyebags like this" 🤣. Haha. He's not wrong.
My eye bags are now Handbags making my game at the same time making youtube videos for my progress. haha 🥲
@@blackcitadelstudios Lol. Tell me about it. Been doing 12hr shifts this last month 7 days a week because during beta tests players wanted a harder mode and I don't like traditional difficulty settings so went and made an entire mode for the hard mode players. Still soldering through it now. I haven't even taken UA-cam seriously at all (I used to do youtube years ago and know how much hard work that is by itself)
@@RewdanSprites It's tough bro... UA-cam + Gamedev is the hardest thing i did in my life... hahaha 😅
I'm working on a cyberpunk walking sim inspired by Bernband, and just making it in my free time.I don't expect it to make any money but i've learnt that it's way more fun working on it as a hobby, than a job. Me and a friend released a co op sci fi game but that didn't make as much money as we'd hope to.
Huh, guess I'll have to stay put in a Helpdesk job which I am overqualified because I hold a CompSci Degree. However, that will not stop me from making and pumping out games. To hell with the whole downer shtick.
Thank you for your honest words and as i saw some Videos from you you often warn people which i appreciate. I think you are really deep in this dame dev Bubble of course so let me tell you my Opinion. People know this is tough. Perhaps its like winning in the Lotto or like you said to get a golden ticket. But for its just i have a Vision and make it into Reality. Most of the People you meet just look that they can make good money from it but you forget about something. The People who want to make a game are people which mostly tryhard many games. The Rest will quit soon anyway. But there are people out there which just want to make a game to make the people feel better espacially in times like this. Its Really great from you to tell us that Santa Claus is not Real and we kinda know it but sometimes its great to wish Santa Claus could be Real.
Me and my friend are 17 years old and we still still have 2 years of high school, so by the time we go to university, i hope world will chill out a little. Thanks for the video!
its always been fucked. Its the best now as it ever been. Think of all econimic crashes, 2008, 1920, all the famines, the world wars. Kid, life isnt gonna get better. Just enjoy your life and dont stress too much
@@bas_ee Thanks, man
More likely to get worse and economically abysmal. Always have a plan B and C for the short/medium term. Have a panoramic view of things and invest where the herd is overlooking.
More likely to get worse and economically abysmal. Always have a plan B and C for the short/medium term. Have a panoramic view of things and invest where the herd is overlooking.
More likely to get worse and economically abysmal. Always have a plan B and C for the short/medium term. Have a panoramic view of things and invest where the herd is overlooking.
Thanks for keeping it real.
It probably isn't a great time for new devs.
Gamers are spoiled for choice in this era, which means every dev is going to be compared to tens of other games with a similar premise.
If you can't convince someone that your game is better, they aren't going to buy it. I certainly wouldn't get into the field for any sort of financial payoff at this point.
Becoming a full-time dev was always a gamble. But nowadays, it's effectively financial suicide to even consider it.
Yes, but what about part time (or even hobby) as a game dev, until you finally release something. A good exemple of a game would be something with reusable content (like death daggers for example or icy tower), if done well, you might be able to get some sales and potentially have a realistic time frame for a release since it's not focused on assets (considering my case being a programmer)
I think much of the problem is streamers. The way to stand out from the competition is typically to offer an original premise so there is no competition, but streamers will only play games that are very similar to what they already know, so you have to make streamer bait in addition to everything else.
@@truthiz2805Part time seems like a more reasonable approach, since you'll still have another stream of income coming through. If the game in development is your only means of making ends meet, your game dev experience will likely be significantly worse.
@@nidungr3496True, if content creators or streamers aren't interested then marketing is going to be incredibly difficult. It's why I've always liked the idea of "build something in your spare time, for your own fulfillment" as opposed to making it a full-time job.
Where is that thumbnail art from? Its awesome!
Don't kill me, but it's AI art. All our thumbnails are midjourney generated. -M
Thanks man, i was on a verge to divert my UA-cam content towards game dev but i guess i will stick with educational content on innovation and find some ways to create an app sort of thing in it than switching to game completely 👍
Marnix went to the barber!!!😮😮😮😮
also thanks for this because people need to hear it!!! working in games feels ass and it won't give u shit back. it eats you alive.
It's brutal to be in other industries too. Gaming industry has much brighter future than other "creative" industries such as music, movie, or art.
People spend more time and money on games than ever before and they will continue to do that.
Thank you very much for your info bro,you are not being a downer, you are just best honest and I really appreciate it. I was actually wondering, as an animator, how difficult would be to become a game dev or to create a small indie studio... but as you said, I'm not sure it is the right moment. I FOLLOW YOU
Marketing wins over good games, the day before was the most wishlisted game on steam. Not because it was good lol. People care about the package more than whats inside. I love making games, but it'll be awhile before there's money in it again. If you wanna make games, go ahead and learn now so that when an opportunity to make money comes you're prepared
thanks bro. I will! for now I just need to make money to live right now. I'm in a C# course right now@@jaxon_hill
Just find a partner who's good at the stuff you're not. If you figure it takes at least a year+ to learn each other's habits/workflow, build something tiny together in that time.
The current economic climate is mostly due to wars & inflation - lengthy, but not interminable.
Entertainment is surprisingly resilient - when ppl have money, they buy b/c they're happy. But even when they're broke, they still kinda buy b/c they're sad. So long as you've got a steady job to keep you fed, just get your ducks in order and be ready to hit the ground running when things improve.
Thank you for always being real! I would recommend getting some rest lol. GoodLuck in your continued journey.
One of the few that got laid off! Working 3 years in the Game industry now (from AAA to Indie) and it's pretty tough, seeing all these studios closing :(
And graduated from DAE even, time to go into the solo development grind? -M
I tried Forge Industries, it looked right at my alley. I play an unhealthy amount of Paragon Pioneers on my phone.
It's great you added a demo. But sorry, the UX is making it very hard to love the game. For simple things, like pausing a route, adding or removing workers, you have to open the edit menu. It could have been -/+ and pause buttons in the list (you already have the play/pause icon, it just doesn't work as a button, at least in the demo tutorial). Editing it resets the remaining runs.
The dropdown for selecting the products for the route is too small, or maybe the product icons there are too big - what matters is that too few items can be seen, and it takes more effort to pick what you need.
I could not see a place for all the routes Paragon Pioneers have it, coloring the routes to/from the selected destination differently so they stand out.
Many games have the stashed items appear as physical items in the game, Surviving Mars is a good example.
I know with a small dev team it's hard to do everything, but a few simple changes could significantly change the feel of the game.
Forge Industry doesn’t look and feel like a $15 game. The bar is high for that price range. It also needs to communicate a hook but the screenshot are just generic strategy images with low art.
I'd love to be a full-time game developer. But right now I've decided to hold on with this idea and return to my previous profession. Now that I've seen regression in the industry, on one hand, and enormous number of indie projects from many talanted people, on the other hand, some stable work as a back-up plan doesn't sound bad to me at the moment. Still wanna be a part of gamedev world, just need to take a breath and look around.
It is Picard!
Being an indie game dev makes me think of the line "You can fit a couples of knives,kitchen supplies and a house in the bags under your eyes"
Appreciate the brutal honesty Marnix. I’ll keep my day job
it isn't that games _are becoming_ a luxury product. they've always been that. they've been a relatively affordable luxury, and still every day there are hundreds of them coming out for free, but all art is a luxury
Do your boring day job (can be software related) && then do your passion (game-dev) in your free time until you 'make it' like every other career person has had to.
I am in the exact situation right now
What if the boring day job seeps up all your energy and there is none left to spend on the passion?
@@ytmiva2 Find a different job. I know it's not easy, but if you're unhappy there, maybe it's worth thinking about. If you want to get into gamedev but need money, maybe even becoming a Starbucks barista will gibe you enough to live off of. I don't know your situation or yoir projekt, so I can't tell.
@@tymondabrowski12 it's not my own situation but thank you for the reply! I agree with your point.
the most honest video i ever saw in youtube , wow
For me game development is a hobby and if nobody bought my game I'd still be fine with it.
im in a games dev uni course in the uk, and my god even my lectures are telling me to learn as much c++ and other languages as possible since that's the only way to get a job, it's making me lose hope in all game dev
If you learn c++ you could find a job that pays 3x as much as game dev
Why?
Just make games in C/C++. Its...not as hard as people say.
@@davidagiel8130 it's not about the money
Well that is the way to do it, and it's really not that bad of a way. You get to learn to develop games without compromise, and if gamedev doesn't work out at all, then you can make the switch very easily to a regular programming job
It’s brutal in every industry right now
yep quitting my day job was never an option for my first game. my second or third game? that'll depend on the first lol. But in the end as many have said, if you are making games just to strike it rich, its alot easier with the same probability to just do the lottery. its better if you want to make a game because games are your life and you want to put that passion to the page.
Related to compete in the market with the people who were laid off.
The big difference is the hourly rate, hiring someone with a lot of experience is much more expensive.
Of course, the quality of the delivery will be much different as well.
As always the honesty is a real breath of fresh air and really appreciated! My dream is definitely still to do this full time one day, but I think being content with just doing it on the side is vital for long term success. Being able to go through the development and release of a steam game WITHOUT relying on it for income lets off a lot of pressure and will (hopefully) help a lot with future releases. Basically just treating it as a bit of a practice run!
Good luck to everyone else out there!
See your title sceen, why cant that be a real game world, would love to travel around in that.
.collaboration projects are the way forward each team member owning the same percentage of the project created no matter the roles
5 to 6 people who share a common goal of making a great game with the spare time they have instead of the money focused outlook of a business model which often leads to the devs and company losing its soul battle bit is a prime example
low price big bang for your buck with great mechanics that over shadow the graphics
I think Thomas Brush had one video of the top 10 tools for game devs and the number 1 most important tool he cited (I forget what it was exactly) was a marketing/demo/advertising tool because he said that no matter how good your game is, or how much you did right, if you can't get it out there and on wish lists, it is going to fail.
I am kinda sad to see this video, but the reality of it is good to hear. I am a senior dev with 15 years experience thinking about changing careers and getting into game dev, and it looks like I choose the exact wrong time to do this. I have been doing game dev as a side thing and I still like my current job, but it seems just absolutely brutal out there in the game dev industry and videos like this are definitely making me reevaluate things.
I coudn't agree more, unfortunately.
Re: Demos: I will say that having a free or super cheap demo available will increase my likelyhood of moving forward with the game. Even if it's a 20 dollar indie game. 20 bucks isn't much but still not worth the dice roll on a game that may look solid enough but once you play for a bit you realize that you're not into it, so I default to simply not purchasing it. A free demo and I say "eh, why not give it a go?" If it's cool then I know at least that much more about the game.
yeh i just had the most embarassing launch you can imagine, for switch/pc. 2 weeks later less than 15 sales globally on both platforms.
You've been doing it for 12 years...MAD RESPECT
I agree with him about barrier to market being low,and games being at the end of people’s list. Eg. I been sitting on xplane11 and don’t see reason to upgrade to x12 simply because don’t wanna pay that cost again. People will think same with games. They will play and replay same game they have instead of paying again.
I'm one of those AAA developers. The landscape is rough and the competition is super fierce. Simply knowing that is enough. whether you decide to try to compete or not is up to you! The industry will settle again like every industry.i now have plenty of time to upskill and get after it, make sure you do the same! Let's go!
Very well said. I made over $200k from the games in 2023 but it's dropped significantly in the last few months and the thoughts of doing it full time aren't that realistic at the moment. Lots of work to do though!
Still trying to learn terminology here.... is it: "cinty" assets?
"sinty" assets?
does cinty/sinty mean like cheap? similar to "chincy" or something like "janky"? I'm still trying to understand that word.
It's "Synty studios", one of the biggest asset publishers: assetstore.unity.com/publishers/5217
Since they are so big, a lot of games (some good, a lot of bad ones) have been released using their assets, giving them a worse rep.
-M
Fair wisdom, makes sense.
Some years ago I was involved with making an app. I was too delusional about it and inexperienced. It was too easy to fall into that trap because there is a lot of, I'll say, "toxic positivity" that sells so well for social media content. It can inflate that positive ambition to the point of delusion and then come the poor life choices.
We are developing our game as a family and it makes it a bit easier. You should consider partnering up with others to make life a bit less challenging. For instance, for us, our eldest is the technical dev/programming, middle is the social media handler/project manager and the youngest is the graphical/audio artist.
Hard truths
I understand your point, you are right on many things, but I think you might be missing on something key (that you catually mentioned), u complained Forge Industry didn't sell, honestly, from dev to dev, I am prety sure the game is fun and well coded and YES I can respect the eye bags, but the game does not LOOK GOOD, I can see from the trailer, the visuals doesn't seem to have any flare or is indestiguishable from a game jam game. Again, I respect a lot the work you and you team put into it, but nowadays there are so many styles that you don't even need to spend thousands on multiple LOD models to make a game look good. Maybe I am wrong but if I was in your team, the graphic style would be something I would defo look into first
Aww bro - sorry you are going through a hard time staying motivated. Gamedev is a hard nut to crack for indie/solo/small dev teams. The worst part is not getting a regular paycheck. Best of luck!
I am going to a specialized program to become a profesionnal game dev, I have worked for 5 years in the elite program as a nobody to get into this program. Therefore, with all the efforts I've put into this from when I was 13, to this video and to the world that's awaiting me: Challenge Accepted.
studied game dev, the one entry job i did get hired for got canceled 15 days before starting. been stressing out abt becoming a game artist all my life - but the first time i thought abt quitting this path and get into another field feels freeing. game industry has trated me like shit for years, just wanna leave.
I firmly believe that if you have a dream, you must pursue it no matter what. There will be days when you feel inspired and others when you wonder what you're doing. But it's crucial to keep going. Three years ago, I started a rather ambitious project with Unreal Engine 5. Today, I'm proud of the results, and there's nothing in the world that can surpass that feeling!!
hope you still finish SOE! Quitting to become a full time indie gamedev is never going to be ideal if you don't have a track record to show you can be successful. There is so much room to be successful part time or as a hobbyist with the low barriers for entry that opportunity still exists.
I don’t think it’s a crisis, I think it’s a *transformation* . I think it’s because I personally really long time disagreed with many game design/business choices and I feel like these layoffs were predictable. More and more I feel like the game industry develops in a better industry with more thoughtful, wise choices. And it’s why I think these professionals were not really professionals, because many poor people in these times are actually *bying* games to spend their time. I didn’t play your game, so maybe there is a reason why it’s not profitable. I personally have a very data-driven approach to game design what many don’t have, so maybe you don’t understand something what holds you back?
I agree tho with the competition, because many employers still have these prejudices about education and experience, but I think it’s a situation when you need to develop a new game industry becoming an indie developer and accepting new rules such as quality is the most important, deep fun mechanics are important and many many others. I just partly feel that these problems are created and are affected these companies who made mobile gaming shit or abusive monetisation systems like Ubisoft and others like them, some are dying just because they were making something, not masterpieces. I think it’s really similar to the film industry which earlier transformed from every film gets money to masterpieces get much money.
So I would say improve current industry and you will be awarded. I personally really think how to use data science in game design to improve quality of choices and consequently games. Everyone can improve themselves and move to new Gamedev.
Well I'm making levels as a hobby. I wan't to make them as a job but I feel like this is impossible, which makes me want to make better levels due to the competition.
I like making games and I like the games I've made or I'm working on. So I'll definitely keep going, but I won't give up my day job completely either. I simply reduce the hours at my day job as my games become more successful. Actually, I'm not even setting a date for myself to quit my day job completely...
I think you are mistaken. I'm not here trapped with them, they are trapped with me. I just wanted to say that, I'm done, you're absolutely right btw.
In regards to competition - i think Steam should expand their "New & Trending" tab to be at least 20 or 30 items instead of 10 like it is now where everybody is fighting tooth and nail to show up on that list, otherwise your game is destined to fail and fade into obscurity. All this competition for the spot on that small list (alongside possible AAA releases & free games that eat up space as well)
Steam will not implement features that will lose them money.
Steam made an entire 40min video to say that they are not your marketing team. 😅 We need to kill this idea that if you just do X, Steam will catapult your game from obscurity to profitability.
They only promote games that are already proving themselves through other means - i.e. marketing. Whether the goal is to make money, to get exposure for a job, or to practice for your _real_ game, devs need to learn to treat mktg as a key skill in development, just like using the engine, making/sourcing art, or game design.
@@mandisaw your game will not show up on New & Trending without marketing, so of course everybody needs to market their game, i am not denying that. i am simply proposing to expand the list for those who already marketed their game succesfully.
@@ergohash2517 Steam is actually shrinking the "winner's circle" as far as who gets promoted, to those games that are top 10th, or even 5th percentile. And they made more money last year doing so. Having more slots for ppl to shoot for seems seriously unlikely to happen - if anything, they'll probably have fewer New & Trending in a year or two.