Why 96% of Indie Games Fail
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2024
- Only about 4% of games turn a profit. So how do you succeed as an indie game developer?
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Only 4% of games turn a profit, According to the Electronic Entertainment Design and Research institute
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What's the hardest part of game development?
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Promotion
Making the war planes/star fighters fun to fly
Jk it actually is marketing and perseverance
Making the textures
Fitting the game to suit player's likes. That is excluding obvious issues such as personal finance and marketing.
1. Developing the games.
2. Understanding the market climate.
3. Being Solo-Dev.
4. Doesn't have a strong computer.
5. Fighting against laziness.
Something I always keep in mind is that Scott Cawthon made 72 games before FNAF, and FNAF was his first big success.
It wasn't even the biggest thing he made or was most excited about. But the guy kept going, kept making games, he'd been making games for 18 years at that point and was working at a dollar store when he made it. It was made in response to feedback calling his stuff creepy and animatronic like.
in fact, fnaf was originally going to be his last game
@@lisatroiani6119 just the same with Final Fantasy
It's also important to remember that FNAF (as it was released) could have easily failed, a completely forgotten game, if it didn't win the UA-camr lottery. More evidence that success is a numbers game. Keep making games until one gets noticed.
@@lisatroiani6119 jesus
that christian white work ethic though
TLDR: game dev is more like opening a startup than simply making a game
Depends a lot on your goal I believe.
@@sheikhsadabduuuuh
You’re building the factory to make the thing rather than the thing itself.
And that's after you've simply made the game, which is a very complex task in itself.
yep.
11:43 a recent indie dev that made great marketing was VA Proxy ''you can parry a nuke''
I SAW THAT GAME ON IRON PINEAPPLES CHANNEL. that game looks awesome.
Nice, I just Googled it. It looks a lot like NieR Automato, which is good.
I've heard similar advice coming from several areas of software development.
1 - Find intrinsic motivation in what you do. Don't think you can wear yourself out until you find success, because you're more likely to collapse before that. Development doesn't get easier, there's always new problems. You better like the process of solving them.
2 - Get feedback. It doesn't matter how long or hard you worked on something, it will break on sometime else's hand. The sooner you can get others to test your product the better.
3 - You always get something out of every project you deliver in the form of growth and experience that can't be measured. Don't get attached to your creations and ideas. Many people don't even start because they fear their idea will be stolen and they won't get credit. Think that the real value is in you and not what you create, and always give your best because it's the kind of stuff that the more you give, the more you have.
just really good life advice too
"The riches are in the niches"
-Alex Hormozi.
Any "richie rich" gonna buy a $5000 new release game? That's just weird...
@@SimGunther that is why companies like gaccha games
@@SimGunther No but niche games usually dont have much competion and can afford to not go on sale because... who is going to replace them?
Was it pronounced, "The reeshes are in the niches"?
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120 Factorio has never gone on sale
We are 2 devs, we made $150k on our first game (Bonding Ambivalence on Steam) by filling a niche. Indeed it's very important to analyze your sub-market! In our case, we started with an idea that our friends liked, then broadened the execution by mixing game styles that we liked (Dead Space, We Were Here, Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes etc.).
We're trying to develop a second one, but we don't know if we'll be able to go through with it, we feel like we're starting from scratch against giants who occupy people's full attention. This is the most difficult and psychologically exhausting experience of our lives. On the other hand, the feeling of being in steam's top 400 for a few hours is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Let's see where it goes!
You mean... that french swat, blade runner game?
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120
Yes that game, cyberpunk coop but with some horror and technical puzzles 😅
How long did it take you to make it? Were you making it full time?
@@azerim2039 I was alone on the project for a year and a half (it was full time and it was very, very intense, 9 to 11 hours of work every day including week ends/holidays), then there were two of us for testing and playtest feedback. A total of two years of development.
Note that it wasn't exactly my first game, I'd been practicing with my friends under the radar to create very simplified mini escape games before Bonding Ambivalence. I was able to develop 3D and programming skills. So I'm not starting from scratch in terms of skills.
Hey! I know your game! I like that you were successful!
Really great video! The commercial stats are indeed a bit depressing but being able to build and play something you built yourself is a magical feeling!
I've recently been able to test my coop game with some people and just watching other people discover the map you already know by heart, see them trying to solve the puzzles you've done and tested for amillion times and having some laughs with it is priceless.
I read this with CodeMonkey's voice in my head.
I feel like this is good advice on paper, but pretty bad advice in practice. You basically pinpoint a roadmap to create a relatively successful average game that will make, in the best realistic outcome, significantly less than an average job in any other fields. In other words, you're saying "just create another gatcha/coc clone". As another person in the comment section put it "if you want to make money, do something else". You're greatly underestimating the sheer importance of creative vision, what you said about the market doesn't actually resonate with the player-base or with the recent history of game titles. "Why do AAA games succeed while indie games fail?" well because they can rely on a much stronger infrastructure both economically and practically, but while that is true in terms of sole numbers, in the last 20 years triple AAA titles ALWAYS LOST in terms of relative cost of production (compared to financial success) against the most liked indie games of the year, most of which come from anonymous, single developers hungry for innovation. From the Binding of Isaac, to Terraria, to Minecraft, to Lethal Company or Among Us, indie titles made by small studios have completely eclipsed huge game developers that, precisely by following marketing trends like you suggest, create corporate slob gaming experiences that people only like so much. If you genuinely believe titles like modern Pokemon games are better than the average fad indie game of the month because they make more money (and they only do because once again they can rely on unsinkable corporate ships, not because they actually create good products) than you're not really in the position to give advice. While yes, I agree that you should research your market and be more pragmatical on your developing process, at the same time you should remember that if you don't have a personal vision that allows for the creation of something new and worthwhile, then you're just better off getting another job.
You forgot to mention that EVERY single game you mentioned either came out before the golden age of indie games, became successful through flash or some other method, or followed his steps.
Or just complete blind luck, among us became popular years after it came out, simply because of covid.
Let’s take among us though, and run with it. It’s not that original of an idea, it’s just Mafia and then some steps. It took the genra and put its own twist, and ran with it.
It was advertised among kids and party game people during covid, when that was much needed.
Aaaand it wasn’t made for years and years and years, it’s a relatively simple game pushed out in a reasonable amount of time.
Not all AAA games are soulless, not all indie games are full of creativity. You use all of these tricks to your advantage to find the best of everything.
You mentioned 4 that made it, but for those 4 that made it, 96 games crashed and burned.
The numbers don’t lie.
The odds are not in your favor. You have to rig the odds through business acumen if you want a meaningful chance to win.
@@curts7801 The number is likely even smaller, that's the truth for every business, and it's even worse for creative endevoirs. Still, winning big and losing hard is always much better than breeding mediocrity. As for the first comment, your idea of "Golden Age of Indie gaming" expands pretty far, since Lethal Company came out a year ago (so no, not EVERY one of them). Let me give you some other names so maybe you might get it: Celeste, Hades, Disco Elysium, Hollow Knight, Vampire Survivor, To The Moon, Dead Cells, Hotline Miami, Doki Doki Lc, Spelunky, Enter the Gungeon, Limbo, Soma, Omori, Eastward. A good percentage of these came out in the last 5 years. Dredge, Cocoon, Venba, Pizza Tower and Viewfinder were the top 5 best debut indie titles for the Gaming Awards just last year, and every one of them met great financial success. The Golden Age of Indie never stopped, that's the truth. Pursue passion, pursue creative vision, revolutionize the market, or else just give up, it's not worth it.
@@inaridefucc8904Okay good, you mentioned 10 more games out of tens of thousands that came out and utterly failed to even break even. Your argument is that indies make more money than triple A companies, which isn't true when you consider that indies take much, much longer to develop than the average triple A game nowadays. Actual creativity and effort doesn't matter compared to marketing; you can make the next Deus Ex game and it won't blow up unless you either got very lucky or had a lot of contacts.
I don't understand how research of the market can be against personal vision, I think you got too offended by the "market" word and forget that he never said you should create a new gacha game.
It's easy to see why most indie devs stop after 1 game. I mean, many spend several years on a game and they probably think it's hard to justify another commitment like that with the risk of another failure.
and you can't lose twice your saved up money, just once
Yeah, we only have a limited time on earth after all... you will ask yourself if making another game that might just as well flop is the best use of that time
@@sinkingdutchman7227 That is the mistake. The goal being just a reward rather enjoying the process itself first, like a hobby. If you enjoy it, it is not a waste. You usually then do better work, do it more, and eventually make a hit that takes off thanks to that accumulation of passion enjoying the process of creation and growing talent.
@@merccc1 if you want to get far, you cannot treat it like an ordinary hobby though. It's at least as demanding as a second job. And it will consume a large part of your life.
It can still be rewarding. But think very hard what kind of investment you are making, and what other things in life will necessarily take their toll.
@@sinkingdutchman7227 Of course it is also demanding, but that makes it all the more important that you enjoy the process foremost before anything else. It helps keep you motivated and to push through difficult road blocks and long stretches of work. Not to mention, it is far more likely that your more inspired and optimistic about the game; Thus come up with better, more enjoyable systems than if you were dully just trying to get through the process like it is a chore. This also results in higher potential to make a hit that sales well and makes it worthwhile not just as enjoyment, but as a job. Never underestimate passion, it usually more often than not, gives better results.
ego is a big part of everyone's problems.. and we ALL do that mistake. We've worked SO hard on a project, spent days researching, working etc just to get a random schmuk telling us we're doing something wrong.. and we can't take the critic and just dismiss it.
we're all guilty of that at one point, overcoming this will change your life
I’m convinced you can’t go wrong if you live by the valve philosophy. playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest playtest. Playtest when you only have like two things in your game. Playtest with everyone all the time. And then you take the feedback into consideration and you end up with Portal
Felt like this video didn't really distinguish between continuous and discontinuous innovation. The Henry Ford quote refers to discontinuous change, like how Apple launched the iPod and iPhone. Along those lines, genre innovation or mashups can see outsized success for a small gamedev team.
Continuous change means a much more competitive and incremental market.
Agreed
Something that comes up again and again on YT is indie devs making their "dream game". I'm so glad that this video is tapping into that "Dream game" mentality. Your dream is not everyone else's dream. It's either a hobby or a job and if you want to do this as a job, you gotta make your player base's dream game. ...said a studio that goes by the name of DREAMteck xD
I disagree. You should absolutely make the game you yourself would want to play. Because there would be heart and passion behind it as opposed to a game that's just made to chase popular trends. Afterall if the developer doesn't like the game they're making why would anyone else.
@@Guy-cb1oh unfortunately the business side of things is not concerned with heart and passion. Balance is key. You should enjoy what you're doing but taylor the product to your target audience.
@@Guy-cb1oh Define heart and passion, does it mean the game has, extra details and looks a bit better?
That it is magically better?
The situation is that A: people usually dont recognize "passion" and B relying on word of mouth is a recipe for disaster, think of word of mouth as a bonus not your mainstay in marketing and yes, sometimes it does cost money.
Games are more like movies than painted art, its a business.
@@dreamteckstudio People who buy indie games (and games in general) definitely are concerned with heart and passion. Of course, the game also has to be good. Looking outside the indie sphere, Daikatana and Balan Wonderworld had heart and passion, but they were commercial failures because they were not good.
@@xei2694right. And the opposite can be true too. Games that are technically good but have no soul to them.
This is my favorite video of yours yet! (And not just because you highlighted my game 😅)
I’ve fallen in love with the development process of game creation - I hadn’t thought of it in those terms before, but it’s such a good point that the process is more valuable than the singular game I may be working on at the time.
Thanks for the awesome video!
been thinking of making a indie game m a web dev and didnt study game dev but its a hobby of mine to learn how game dev works nice having videos like this
best of luck! would love to play
Yeah good luck, you'll need it. It's not an easy task xD
Always start out small when you first start making games. And always keep an eye on just how big the game is getting through development to keep it in scope or it will become unmanageable. A lot of devs that start out making their first games end up making games that are way too big at first and suffer and fail because of that because it ends up never getting finished
Start Small, and release quickly. You will be surprised by the amount of work required to deploy even a simple game on Steam or Play Stores. The Logos, Marketing Materials, Promotional Content, Videos, etc...Making a game is one thing, deploying a game to the world is something else all together.
Solo Indie devs don't make games because of money. I mean yeah the money is a bonus to look forward to. But they do it mainly for passion. They want their art out there.
Lots of good advice in this video. I was very surprised to be quoted right at the start.
this was one of the most eye opening videos on game dev I've ever seen. Also loved the amount of shout outs to other gaming channels, felt like a cross over. And props on pulling off that awesome Ted lasso 'stache!
Super well made video, thanks for taking the time to deliver points in a super clean way. It's surprising the amount of indie devs that question why their game didn't sell well and completely ignore the business side of the whole thing.
My best friend made a cute little flash game in college where he created all the art in MS paint, and made the characters Pixels that he also created in MS Paint, and it was a small platformer with witty commentary (he wasnt a witty dude, hes so chill and down to earth so it was pretty interesting) and he wasnt selling it, but it was pretty popular on campus. I was playing it during lunch and someone asked me what it was and when i told him, he asked for a copy and next thing i knew quite a few people were playing it and coming up to him and telling him how fun it is. He did 0 research, and doesnt create games today (he grew out of that phase sadly...), but i truly believe if he stuck to that and created games that he likes to play, he wouldve created a hit or 2 by now.
Thanks for the awesome video as always!
Currently working on a 2D indie game myself/ solo (in addition to a full-time job), really found this insightful -- especially the idea of where to put the passion. Reminds me a lot of what they teach us about startups -- fail early, fail fast.
With that being said, I can only hope I am in the right direction haha XD
Nice Video Man!, I was sad by the end but that twist to a happy ending was excellent.
I was just doing something else with this in the background when I heard “to quote The Way of Kings” I froze and second guessed whose video I was watching. Stormlight is one of my favorites too, I love that you chose that quote.
What is the most important step a man kan take? Is also fitting for this, but that's from a later book!
Solid video through and through. Saving (and subscribing) so I can come back and watch in a few months!
Cheers!
I fall more into the mindset of I can't fail long as I created what I truly wanted. I don't really care much about the money or how many folk play it, I create to see my dreams come true, which can never be a waste of time. Also yes it is good to research who your main viewership will be ahead of time, but I will argue to be careful with boxing yourself into certain genres & cliches to much, as that can lead to just copying what other people do instead of making something that feels creative & natural... I hate media that feels overly checklisty in how it was made.
Your point about marketing adding value to the viewer is something that hits me with a lot of UA-cam videos. I see a thumbnail, a title, and the channel name, and my first questions are ALWAYS "Why should I care?" and "Why should I trust you?". It's a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately, and if you have more content on that, it would be a must-watch for me.
First of your videos I've seen, and you've earned my sub! Awesome stuff here.
Because the market is now over-saturated? For example after seeing how successful Vampire Survivors (auto-shooter, waves of enemies, upgrades that make you way OP) was the number of copycats of it are now in the hundreds. It basically became so successful it became a genre. How can you make money when your game is up against 200 others that are almost identical?
That game is like Flappy bird, not really a game to consume like an experience, sort of like a good movie, but something more like something to do on your phone instead of talking to people or burning some time until something you have to do. And these small simple games may be a lot of them are also incomplete and of poor quality. So you can compete by standing out with a minimum effort really, finish the game and put in the time to polish it.
exactly not all indie games are good
The funniest thing here is that vampire survivor is basically all those terrible mobile game ads. That genre already existed.
2:49 The Stormlight Archive is my favorite series too. "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination" is my all time favorite passage in literature.
One should definitely create the game they're excited about. It doesn't make sense to focus on pleasing others because otherwise, you'll lose motivation in the process. Anyone who doesn't understand this has absolutely no clue about game development. There is no long-term motivation if one does not do what they themselves are enthusiastic about. I made this mistake and completely lost my motivation over several years because instead of being innovative, I simply conformed to the market
Honestly its the same thing for most creative mediums.
If you want to learn to draw my best advice is draw the thing most on your mind, you're going to need all the motivation you can.
Don't save it for when you're good or you will never start, if you really want to do it later then just draw it again after a year or so.
That's a tough thing to balance. On one hand I make games because I want to have fun and do things I like, regardless of being successful (which is pretty subjective if you ask me). However, if you want to make money, there's not much of a choice: need to do market research, see if this idea will sell, be realistic with what "success" you will get (if you will ever get any). Oh well
Very inspirational, I've been trying to figure out ways to spruce up my own devlogs and find that right audience!
It's something i notice in some indie games i buy is that they either try to do too much or too little and you can see what they were trying to do but could never really tell when they got off track. I'll sometimes buy something to pass the time and dont get very far in before i want to play anything else, i sometimes buy something that looks substantial but tries to throw in something unique and it just doesn't make the game that fun.
This is coming from someone who hasn't really made a game, but i have played a wide range of both good and bad.
I'd also would say that not saturating the market with mediocre pixel art, rogue-like, souls-like, metroidvanias, etc, is something to take into consideration.
The key is basically to have a combination of good visuals that catch the eye and inspire, have fun and engaging gameplay that has enough complexity and feels polished enough that it doesn't feel like some school project, and of course good marketing. There is a shitload of indie devs that upload small projects with boring visuals and zero marketing, which is why the stats look so daunting. This is probably what you should be doing if you're starting off. Just spam a ton of small projects, and learn form each one. You will, eventually, reach a point where you become skilled enough to create something with quality visuals and gameplay, and back it up with some good marketing. Obviously easier said than done.
Oh, and don't neglect the audio and animations.
"don't take everything to heart" accompanied by a shot of Phil Fish 🤣
My steam game just barely made all the money back. But the vicious comments I got was brutal and stomped my passion to want to make another
What's your game? I'll give it a chance.
I got a small group and we are making a niche game, I'm hoping it will pop off
@@elbarriotrucker aww thanks, well it’s called Bayou Island (it’s a point and click game). I dare not look at the reviews anymore
@@elbarriotrucker but don’t pay for it please, I’ll get you a steam key
@@Cjoudan I wish you lots of success. Only thing I can advise it try to have a thick skin when it comes to comments and reviews. Especially difficult when you’ve put your soul into a game
Wow, you nailed it right in the head!
I literally was asking Tim Cain on his channel for advice, because we haven't been able to, not only not return a profit for any game we worked on till now, but we can't even finish them for the high cost and devtime of making a game that "might" sell. We have been focusing solely on landing a deal with a publisher and failed each time.
Someone read my comment and was like "bro, here are some GDC videos, look at what Super Meat Boy did and good luck!" and I was like, man, if it was only that easy.
Gamedev is hard, but doing it in a thirld world country must be a challenge from the gods.
I've been doing this for 11 years and not published a single game. 30 unreleased prorotypes (with huge preproduction times) and 3-4 of them almost on production phase with a nice vertical slice.
Finishing a game is the first threshold and its already a high mountain to cross. Cause, its not only the idea, or the process, but the team and the tools you develop along it.
Everytime we failed, we scope down. Currently we are working on something that we know we can finish and publish on our own.
But like you said, I don't know if we'll be able to surivve for 3 more games or something in the numbers of John Romero.
But hey, at least we must try! Hopefully if you enjoy the process and making the game, then it's not so hard when it flops and fails miserably.
Great video, man! Really needed it.
Thanks for making this, Cam! This was a great look into the business side of gaming, a facet that not nearly enough people give love to.
I for one am extremely interested in a video going into marketing for games. I’m one of those oddballs who’s more interested in marketing games than making them. The happy tanks party game failing to gain traction from a Counterstrike video was an eye opener, and told me that there’s a LOT to learn about marketing.
Thanks again.
Thank you!
This is all helpful information! I've been working on an indie game for a while myself and recently started to learn about the business side of development. Hopefully I'm doing more right than wrong! Finding passion on the journey is good advice across a lot of endeavors, especially anything creative.
A good trick to avoid being sucked into a passion idea is to make a large list of game ideas before choosing one. Aim for 50.
40 of them will be crap or unoriginal; Dump them. (The 80-20 rule)
Of the remaining 10, 8 will be good but too big for a first project; Save them for later. (The 80-20 rule again)
Then you're left with 2. Pick one of those 2 and stick to it. You'll often wonder if you should have chosen the other one, but then you'll realize you'd be asking the same question about this idea if you had chosen otherwise.
See, I am making a game I WANT. not to sell, not to make money, not to succeed to others. I am making the game I have always wanted and never found. it might take years or even centuries. its my hobby and I enjoy it. I will iterate over it millions of times to get it the way I WANT it. I have no reason to give up, nothing to stop me or slow me.
If you want to live as a hermit, it is totally fine!
If ur making a passion project then why even watch a video like this 😂
That’s fine but games are meant to be played. If you don’t do any playtests and after twenty years you finally finish your baby to show the world, throwing it into the wind, people end up finding more particular issues with it than you could ever ever ever find yourself. You need feedback to make a good game. Period. All of your favorite games had tons and tons of player feedback and your game will not be an exception.
When you talk about listening to the right people, I am right away reminded of Salt and Sanctuary. They brought in all these playtesters and almost all of them complained that the game was too hard. But only one of them was a fan of Dark Souls. That one tester was the only one they listened to, because all the others weren't interested in their game to begin with.
Let's be honest. There are usually 2 reasons for games failing:
- No marketing
- The game is trash/boring
Tis the truth
Amazing video! #1 Changing your passion, really resonated with me. It's such a good way to look at it.
imagine stanley kubrick failing at making a movie. do you want to know why it never happened? because he was a film maker. the reason indie games "fail" is because they are not made by game developers.
Never heard of Kubrick failing to make the Napoleon film, huh?
Thank you for the content, I alway enjoy taking a break from indie game dev to enjoy your videos!
Something really cool about this video is the fact that the advice you are giving to game developers is also the exact same method you are using on this video: hitting the right demographic, providing value, and encouraging engagement. You made me want to watch the video, so if there was any evidence of this method working, we can literally use your video as that evidence. Well done!
I get what you're saying and agree with most of your takes.
But I think this business & market-oriented games will always lack creativity and originality or at least the devs will have to sacrifice a small part of it's creativity and originality.
And I personally feel that this is exactly what we need right now, as the AAA studios give us mostly games that feel like a hollow copy of a copy and that's the reason I prefer to look for Indie Games in the first place, because they actually bring something new.
I just wrote a whole comment saying pretty much the same thing. Thinking about money is the problem not the solution. The current videogame "crash" and multiple layoffs is surely instigated by greed and a lack of creative spirit.
You can still have creativity and properly market a product. A lot of people in the comments section just sound like they only want to focus on one aspect of game dev. Production isn't the only thing you can focus on if you want your game to be successful. Also, you can 'want' money and also 'want' a creative game; they're not mutually exclusive. Cutting corners will just make your spirit weaken as a developer if you can't seem to get the results you're expecting.
@@farmerfreakeasy9577 the layoffs are routine, they are done to impress investors and show that they are "responsible" with their spending by trimming down on cost and people, most companies are not exactly at risk of falling out unless they do something stupid, they know what their audiences are, and the audiences will eat it up.
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120Still, i think the current layoffs are definitely a result of greed in the industry. On a multi-faceted level. Who wants to buy an incomplete, bugged game, that was released early due to greed. Who wants to buy a download you can no longer share with anyone else. Who wants to buy a PS5 when they're still happy with their PS3or PS4. Who wants to buy a game which prods you for micro-transactions continuously. It's greed on a multi-faceted level. Players won't tolerate this financial mentality.
@@farmerfreakeasy9577 Mobile tells us otherwise.
Just started sharing my journey on here. Thank you for sharing videos like this. They, truly help.
This is definitely one of the better videos on this topic I've seen. I have been in the AAA business for nearly 20 years, and am slowly dipping my toes into indie development on the side. A lot of good information here. Would love to talk with you more at some point in the future. What's the best way to contact you?
How to draw an owl
1) sketch basic shapes
2) draw the rest of the owl
Step 4) Market your game to the right audience encapsulates this pretty well. lmao.
I already made 6 personal projects before the game I am currently working on. None of them were fun. But I have lots of confidence for my current project because I have gotten some pretty good comments from people that are really interested in my game
Nice, what kind of game is it? I'd like to try it. Because i like trying games from new developer. Even i know some that made it to steam.
Sorry I can't reply to you my replies keep getting deleted, I don't know why
Really interesting discussion, and I already knew what the fourth was going to be before you said it.
Seems to be a recurrent issue, isn't it?
On a different note, I was thinking about another "staple" of game culture, have you considered talking about pre-ordering and the difference from kickstarting, if there is a difference. Yet seen in completely opposite light.
Great video, I'll keep all of this in mind going forward
Question, what is the background music???
Gonna be honest, I thought this video was just going to be another run of the mill "Heres THREE things you NEED to KNOW before making a game!!!!!!", but what a breath of fresh air. Completely grounded and sound advice to give. I'm just a hobby game dev, but this really showed me how much deeper the rabbit hole can go!
Great video as always. No wonder you blew off, keep that good content coming 😀👍.
" like I'm doing right now "
>looks in description
he fucking got me.
This is a gold mine of ideas, for game devs, but also just pursuits (business, sports, etc) in general.
Great work
counterpoint:
If you make something thats actually new and fresh you can ignore half of the vid
you still need to market yourself and talk about your game tho, its strong points and what distinguishes you from all the other peasants
if you make a game for sole purpose of selling as many copies as possible by making a copy of a game thats already a copy of different game, you need to do all that extra crap as well, because people already played the original so why should they play your watered down version?
So dont make Match 3 Puzzle, dont make another Vampire Survivor, dont make next Jump King because theres so many copies of those games floating around your "spin" will just get lost in all the garbage, make something original, something new and different and market those differences
Exactly! There is nothing wrong with being inspired by other media one likes, but many noob indies have a problem where they are just making worse copies of other popular media with almost no unique spin on it to help itself. Many videos like this one give to much credit to merely getting as much profitable content made as possible.
but the vampire survivor copies are popping off.
and before you make "your version", it will be everywhere
Unless you combine it with some other game/genre in a meaningfull way, you would just be a part of the Vampire Survivor Blob
if you must make vampire survivor, combine it with Diablo2 for example, just make sure you are not cutting corners. Because 50% Diablo2 and 70% VampSurv wont make 120% game, it will make halfbake game thats missing half its features
I noticed, if you want your game to succeed more often just make a 3d, multiplayer game.
look at lethal company, phasmophobia, content warning...
if these games were singleplayer and 2d with same concept it would be bad and boring...
well tbh even 2d is good, but multiplayer boosts success rates a ton... barotrauma is one example that game is amazing
I feel that first tip hard. I have dipped my hands in so many artistic practices. Drawing, editing, 2d model rigging. I'm always proud of what I made, but I never found a passion for the process of making it.
Incredible video! So much value in these advice.
Thanks a lot for sharing!
I’ve had this game idea in my mind for years. Boxman, the explanation is long, but it is a surface level cute but underline cosmic horror game. I’ve been in the planning stage for 5 years and just started my dev journey.
It may be 10 years before I get to make the game as big as I see it. Maybe it won’t blow up, but I plan to make a game no one has seen before and I’m taking it one step at a time
Ohh, that sounds really interestingg! Il be looking forward to seeing how it will turn up!
I hate the general idea that people who make things shouldn't ask others what they want or don't want.
Unfortunately, a lot of big tech game developers like Riot Games do this all the time and it has massively hurt the trust between the players and the developers because the devs DO NOT know what the players want and refuse to listen to them because they don't like the way the criticism is directed towards them. It's extremely petty stuff, especially for big tech that claims to care about players.
as a professional game developer for over 4 years in the mobile game industry I can say that you are %100 true. you can make the best game, have the best effects, increadible visual effects animations sounds and so on. However, if no one knows your game thats your game is a failure. And not just that. Like u said in the video, players do now always want the most polished or visually stunning or unique mechanics. the target audience is really important. What you enjoy does not mean others will enjoy it too. We spend lots of money on prototypes, AB tests, ads, and other test to understand our target market. I really recommend for everyone who is a mobile, indie, web game developer or even has a indie team to watch this video a couple of times and really think about it. marketing does not start when you finish the game, it starts once you think about the idea
Thanks for the great video. I am about to launch my game page soon. I will be thinking about your video. Might rewatch it later.
I started paying way more attention to how other games handle mechanics or situations I want to use. As a more casual RPG fan I want to make a fun open world first person RPG. So I absolutely played some Skyrim, hated the combat hated the magic. I wanted something with a punch but without going to the more chivalry side bam vermintide 2’a combat I remember always being fun & engaging. As for magic idk but I do know I want a charge spell system.
What are the song you use in the video? would be nice to know
I might be wrong since I am not dev or anything but have been interested in it for sometime.
A question: Speaking just about Match-3 games, wouldn't it be just another game among many similar games? where's the uniqueness, then?
Wouldn't narrowing down the niche so much make your idea lose its uniqueness?
I work at a tabletop games company and the lessons here are just as relevant in that industry - Know your audience, know your market, be passionate about refining your work process, market like a champ, don't forget about the business.
Always good to hear the same strong lessons from another point of view.
A lot of this advice can apply to me as an animator, so thank you for this!
This is the perfect video for where I'm at on my first game. Sorry I did already write some code but I'm gonna go dig around more. Luckily my day job is content marketing so I have a decent head start on some elements of all this
"Good game will sell itself" is the biggest lie indie developers tell themselves
you sure? can you show me an example where the game is seriously good but has no sales?
@@TeppuTeppu Secrets of Grindea, Superfighters Deluxe - just off the top of my head
@@TeppuTeppuIs it really that hard to believe in a market where 10000 games are released a year one might get missed?
@@qunas101 the first one got more than 4k reviews on steam, even though it is still early access, I think you can't say it got no sales
@@qunas101 those games seem to be above 2k reviews. hard to really call it 'no sales'.
i think something like phoentopia would be a better example since i remembered it having only like 400 reviews in the first year on steam
Thanks for making this video! It will surely help me forming a game development/distribution company.
I know a guy who published a php game at the age of 16. The game was played by hundreds of thousands but he never accepted to share the responsibility of game maintainance with other people and now the game is dying. Until he stops paying for host servers.
I wasn't expecting a Way of Kings screamer, it's the 4th random video on UA-cam I see where the book is mentioned HAAHAH (love your videos + stormlight too!!)
This is a really well narrated video and you make some very valid points along the way. But can i just say the video leaves a rather bitter after taste. The reason ? The main point of the video seems to be that you should research your markets better, and let the market dictate your final product. Or in other words i feel that the message of this video is that you've only succeeded if your final product is a commercial success.
Many creative projects are finished and released(especially in the world of music) and never amass a suitable financial reward despite being of huge value to those who've discovered and appreciated the product. In the world of music "commercial success" is often equated to: "creative failure". Just because an album is platinum it doesn't necessarily mean the finished product is of creative worth. Some of the biggest contemporary albums/videogames/movies will ultimately be forgotten about in the history vaults 100 years down the line whilst creative niche classics are eventually pulled out and hailed as being before their time.
My advice would be to make a videogame that you respect yourself. If you're worried about paying the bills then allocate your time for dual purpose creativity: make the commercial game(that you still respect) whilst allocating an amount of by-time to the more risky, experimental project, that you don't just respect but deeply love.
We should never forget that videogames are an artform. An artist which focuses more on money than creativity will always be distracted from their upmost creative potential. Money tends to corrupt and curtail art, not unleash a pure imaginarium built for a spiritual purpose.
Exactly my thoughts throughout the whole video. 💯
That's why it's rare now to see AAA companies creating anything creative or new, just a shinier version of an existing game that is according to their research will be a commercial success. Creativity is risky, and there's no way around this.
Most of my favourite and most memorable games in the past 6 years have been indie games, and I'd bet that many of them weren't that much of a commercial success, and I'd also bet that their creators weren't building them for the sake of making tons of money out of them, they just had a vision that they wanted to bring to life.
There are tons of other ways to making a lot of money in a more guaranteed way, and game development is mostly not one of them.
Well, he did say in the video "Success is a matter of perspective." I think this video is pretty valuable for teams who are trying to ensure that their time and money invested isn't put to waste. Individuals and small groups who are happy to just make something probably don't need to worry about profit anyway; but if you have your jobs on the line then it probably would be smart to tip the scales in your team's favor.
The problem is that the market (and society but we won't get into that) is too fragmented for any game to really take off like the old days, people don't just watch a few big youtubers anymore, and word of mouth just isn't what it used to be. You have to compete with a thousand other games, many of which are going to be released on the same day as your game, and there's no guaranteeing that your game which you love and worked on (your baby, more or less) is going to be loved and cared for by other people. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but that just doesn't cut it on the open market.
The Ford quote is actually really smart and used often in User Experience Design. He is not implying that he didn't talk to people and that he didn't ask the question. He is saying that had he asked that question directly and just given people what they said they wanted, he would have given faster horses (if physically possible).
What he did instead is listen to the core of the issue, what people were really struggling with. They were looking for a solution to go faster and they had no idea outside of horses so... They asked for faster horses. A true problem solver like Ford had to break away from the "given solution" the "what people said they needed" and find the actual way to solve their problem.
you are right, you are right, you are right, it is just so difficult, especially when you are not able to even start, but filled with ideas, i know, you should love the process and not just the idea behind it.
Fantastic video, I agree on every point 👏
A few weeks ago I launched my first commercial game on Steam (EVERING) and as I watched the video I was quite satisfied. I knew beforehand the market, the target audience, sales forecast... until I got to the marketing. That's where I'm sure I should have done better. And I will do it in my future games, because my passion project is not just a game, but to work making games.
I worked in several studios that fell into the same mistakes you mention and went bankrupt before they could release a game or even have something to show, so I don't even have a portfolio to show. I decided to use the experience I gained to show the world that it is possible. Now my goal is to make money to be able to continue 💪
i don't even know how to code but i'm still watching this.
i had a cool idea though.
a puzzle platformer like portal, but with a focus on deformation, reshaping, and destruction physics. it sounds like a cool idea but idk anything bout game design.
That sounds really similar to the original idea for portal 2 which was later scrapped because fans wanted another portal game and not this new mechanic. I think it was called F-Stop if you want to look into it.
There's another factor: Some genres can have more successful titles without saturation. For an example, walking simulators and platform games are usually the ones you play for a few to tens of hours before you're ready to move to next one. Meanwhile, it's hard to get audience from MMO genre where the audience is very invested in their games.
You made a video about indie games and tried to promote 'tanks but no tanks' but 4 days later the it has the same amount of reviews. Marketers thinks people are stupid and they'll buy anything if it's well addvertised. But the truth is people are not strupid, and they won't by shitty product no matter how hard you try to advertise it
this is helping me see im in the right direction. having fun with the creative prosses. and been told start small project so sed ok smaller project it is. spent 4 days and after went dang this is alot. took my strugles and went cool now I now how to deal with so not as daunting and proud past hrudle and now i can now use that XP in the future.
Fantastic video! This has got me rethinking my own marketing approach for my game.
Never make your passion project your first game. You need years of experience to hone your craft. Once you become more comfortable then when you go to make your passion project it will come out better and more well executed than it ever would have. And that alone is what can make you successful. For example Cellar Door Games that made Rogue Legacy and Motion Twin that made Dead Cells they actually used to work on mobile/browser games for years before they decided to stop making those and make their passion project on pc/consoles. There's many more examples like that. Just start off creating small projects to get better.
Solid advice. Love your videos, you really give another view to look at.
Choosing the right genre and adding things like multiplayer co-op can really make the difference. I have 3 games on Steam with only 1 selling over 1.5k It's a survivors-like and I keep players coming back with weekly content updates, driving sales via word of mouth (and their friends seeing them play).
Another point I'd like to make, is that when deciding your market, and choosing to design your game - and this probably goes without saying, but it's a good reminder - play to your strengths.
Don't necessarily make the game you think you'd want to play, or the genre you think is coolest. Look at your skills and abilities and then apply them in the way you think will result in the best product possible.
Hopefully others can share their thoughts on the matter; maybe I'm wrong?
Most nostalgic game maybe. I recently tried dozens of game that remind me of good old days but with tuned up graphics.
That's why right now most developers just remake their games and still got nice review and profit.
Just look at skyrim. Bethesda milking that game good but people still buy it, and right now even tomb raider got remaster version and before this resident evil too and some good rts like starcraft remaster originally released back in 2000.
I feel like I am on a solid track. Just started really locking into Game Development within the last month. Made a few 2D small arcade style games but nothing really challenging. Now I am working on some 3D stuff and learning modeling, how to code, how to use the engines and all the stuff that comes with it. Every single time I make a new anything I just feel like I won the lottery. If someone plays the games that's cool but I just want to learn how to do these things for myself! I wonder where I will be in 5 years...
Nice, what kind of game is it? I like trying solo or small dev games because imo they are better than big companies.
@kars6026 Well I love horror so it's a first person vhs horror game. Always appreciated that style and I want to give it a shot!
A very business-focused approach here. I think the first few though a very relevant
The difference between success and failure is perseverance.
Fail fast, adapt and grow.
you mentioned about research, but how do you research? what do you type in google to search to get the data you needed? or is there a website that i can go to get the whole graphs of market for each genre tags?
Hard to hear but most solo devs think of them too highly, just cuz they can write some C and slap things together in Unity they think of themselves to be way above anyone who just play a game.
Egos are blown and they can't handle criticism and in their heads everyone is just trolling them.
Reality is tho they don't know half they should to actually make viable game, they just keep reusing formulas that are been done like million times (like every vampire survivor clone out there) and they deny any feedback outside their controlled environment on discord so of course their boring, half finished, unoptimized and overall bad game will fail.
For marketing: You can also ask content creators to help you promote your game to a wider audience. There is a tone of creators like these (me too), and most of them would do it for free/for key to the game. I understand that devs don't wanna give their game for free to anybody, but well… If nobody talks about your title, nobody gonna buy it.
Yes you are right. That's why content creator ask review copy or something like that. Not full game but good enough to know what's in it.
Playable demo of a game is a great option for content creators to show it to more people@@kars6026
I am a startup CEO who mentors hundreds of other founders every year, and this video's got really great advice! Thanks for sharing.
Seems to me according to my current mental math going on, that the best approach for an indie dev starting out looking to make cash to fund future development, is to create small but quality games that can be sold for cheap and make a bunch of them over time. The end result should ideally be that each one continues to gain some level of revenue provided it's liked enough to continue gaining purchases, and the cumulative effect is a large enough monthly income to supplement or replace regular income for future development funding.
I can already think of at least 3 types of games that I could probably put together easily enough in Gamemaker, that would be worth enough to justify spending a dollar or two on as a purchase price. They wouldn't be sub-par games. Just not hugely invested into like more in-depth and complex games might be. I mean, how complex does a puzzle game get when it's literally a puzzle being put together. Get the idea? Tic-tac-toe might not be worth 50$, but 1$? If done right, sure, why not? Add some special modes, while keeping the classic version under classic mode; and you have a good enough game to justify a small expense of 1$. Make it multiplayer as proper for such a game, and enough people might download it as their preferred way to play tic tac toe via mobile for instance. Paid, so no ads; which further justifies a price existing.
Why such low price range though?
I mean really, as a starter dev, how much are my games really going to be worth off the start if I am not just making them free to play without any kind of monetization? 1$ seems like a pretty fair trade in that respect. Make enough 1$ games that people like... and that turns into 2000$ a month, or more; or less. Probably less.
Edit: And before anyone asks me "What about DLC type content?"
Just release equal content to vanilla in each DLC at the same price as the base game, or less if there is less content. So if the base game is 10$, but the DLC only really adds about half the content as the base game came with, then only charge another 5$. Extrapolate to whatever prices are actually in use, etc and so forth.
So if I release a 1$ rpg battler that revolves around finishing levels, I might make new levels into monthly dlc where each new level is 50cents (since steams lowest price allowed is 50cents). Over a year, that 1$ game becomes a 7$ game. Over two years, 13$ game. 3 years, 19$ game. So on and so forth so long as DLC keeps being released. Or to make it fairer content side if lacking in just one level (even if big); release multiple levels per DLC, but perhaps that price grows a bit as well if enough levels are added.
I say these things in terms of maybes and perhaps, etc, because ultimately each game will differ in its reflective value thus price. Likewise, each DLC will too depending on the strategy at play.
One last thing:
Let's say you want to make 3k a month to replace your current equal or lesser income. We'll keep using the 1$ motif for sake of ease. You realistically expect many of your games to flop, unless you get lucky. But how to put that into numbers? How about 1% of all games made actually succeed on some level. And of those games, you only get 1 download each per day of the year. How many games would you need to make and release at 1$ each to come up with roughly 3k a month assuming continued sales ... well... continue? 10k
10k games to result in 100 of them actually being liked (hopefully), enough to get at least 1 download each per day minimum; since 0 enough times in a year would mean it's not liked enough to be counted in the success category. Obviously higher price equals higher profit if all else stays the same. But that's even more unreasonable to expect, than to expect what is essentially a 0.1% return on efforts.
math: 10k games x 1$ = 100 x 1% = 1 download per day = 365.25 downloads per year including leap years x 100 games = 36,525.00$ a year prior taxes and any other deductions. (If I did the math right.)
I agree and disagree. The reason why alot of indie games see success was because of its interisting content, the creativity. Making a game with business in mind limits the creativity and thus likely making the game uninteresting as why would they play game from unknown devs that others had already done. And the fact that some indie games today that are now successful were never created with business in mind.
I never give up when something I make that I put lots of work into gets little to no attention or when its file corrupts. Also, the excitement of getting lots of plays only lasts for a short period of time.
"Great idea, but bad execution." I always remember that. Thank you for this video. This is good for indie game developers who do not know about marketing, and a never-give-up mentality can influence "success" (This definition of success depends on subjects like you said).
Tfw this is just a ploy for me to play "Tanks But No Tanks"!
On a serious note, thanks for the vid. Kinda what I was looking for when trying to decide what sort of game to make.