THE BALANCE REVIEW of StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty - Was it that bad?
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
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Timecodes:
00:00 What's the topic of this story
00:45 The balance landscape in 2010/2011
01:33 4 Warpgate rush
02:28 8 Pool
03:03 Bunker build time meme
03:50 Voidrays
04:35 Mass mutas
05:15 The balance state before 2012
05:57 Mothership & Vortex
09:50 How zerg transitioned from the weakest to the strongest race
11:00 Brood Lord - Infestors
14:06 The Soul Train
15:22 The end of WoL & Overview
#sc2
#starcraft
#starcraft2
#esports - Ігри
💥Check out my second channel with carefully picked highlights and other topics - www.youtube.com/@SC2HoF
🔹 Brood Lord Infestor balance period - ua-cam.com/video/KbtDFgEO7pM/v-deo.htmlsi=uBv8Nt7tg7rgmcGA
Timecodes:
00:00 What's the topic of this story
00:45 The balance landscape in 2010/2011
01:33 4 Warpgate rush
02:28 8 Pool
03:03 Bunker build time meme
03:50 Voidrays
04:35 Mass mutas
05:15 The balance state before 2012
05:57 Mothership & Vortex
09:50 How zerg transitioned from the weakest to the strongest race
11:00 Brood Lord - Infestors
14:06 The Soul Train
15:22 The end of WoL & Overview
Is there a mod which makes every unit the strongest it's ever been in SC2 patch history? I think that could be fun.
Hahaha I'm not even sure who would come out on top of that. You could even add units that were added in beta versions but were removed for being too broken like the warhound
@@noaccount4 holy hell I forgot about the warhound hahaha. That thing was completely busted.
Really looking forward to the rest of this series. I quit after WoL, so everything after this video will be mostly new information or refreshed memories .Something else I think you should mention in these videos is the way the pro scene expanded in terms Quality of Viewership, growth of popularity and prize support, big success and failure stories for casting dups, players, and metas within each country+world finals.
no such thing as good ideax or brutex or etc, morex doesnt matter
I stopped playing competitively after WoL. I still watch, but the lack of an early game after HotS came out bored the game to tears for me.
@@frogfinance4605 stopped playing in early HotS as well. That's the time it became very apparent to me that Blizzard was only interested in designing and balancing units for competitive play while ignoring the rest of the ladder, so I didn't see the point anymore.
The most heinous examples were the winfestors in WoL and widow mine in HotS, but especially the latter. The winfestor was straight busted, but the widow mine seemed okay in pro play while it completely demolished the rest of the ladder because it was easy to execute but hard to defend against. Took them half a year to nerf it.
very much looking forward to the future of this series
Great one again !
Man, I can't wait for part2 and your video about Parting one day :D
Can you do a story about "Polt"
Yes I'll cover him one day
Please do hes my biggest hero after byun
BILLY THE FUCKING MARINE
Awesome video, I started watching competitive SC2 about 2 years ago and there's so much stuff I don't know about.
great content!
Hello there, I'd like to express my sincere appreciation for your videos, particularly the one that delves into the history of Mech. These videos offer a comprehensive overview of the highs and lows in Terran gameplay, as well as the broader developments within the game itself.
Despite the consistent nerfs to Terran across various seasons and the inherent challenges they face in expanding and producing at the same pace as Zerg or Protoss, there's an ongoing influx of complaints regarding the effectiveness of Terran units, especially in the realm of mech strategies. Notably, the Cyclone fell out of favor in recent seasons, remaining overlooked for quite some time until the current patch. The latest patch has brought only a noticeable buff for Terran and, interestingly, most adjustments benefit Protoss.
Curiously, Protoss players are now finding themselves compelled to adopt a more 'turtle' playstyle, a strategy traditionally associated solely with Terran gameplay. This shift has sparked discussions and concerns among Protoss players about the balance of Cyclones in the game, especially given their recent buffs. The StarCraft landscape remains dynamic and ever-evolving, and your videos offer valuable insights into these intricate dynamics.
Additionally, I'd like to request a video where you share your thoughts on the current state of the game, its trajectory, and how it may impact StarCraft II going forward.
One notable trend we observe is a decline in new and active players in the community. This decline can be attributed, in part, to the game's perceived stagnation in terms of updates and changes from the developers. In most cases, games lose popularity over time when they lack new content. This trend is not unique to StarCraft II but is observed in many other games as well.
However, I personally believe that part of the issue lies in the perception that balance updates primarily cater to professional players, often neglecting the broader StarCraft II community. Engaging the broader player base in balance discussions and updates could help invigorate the game and foster a more inclusive and vibrant community."
Please note that the request for a video is an addition to your original comment, and it's aimed at encouraging discussion and analysis of the game's current status and future prospects.
The broodlord/infestor combo was terrible but, 'till this day, I think that the number #2 reason behind initial SC2's sickness, was all those professional balance-whiners with a large following. Suddenly, instead of improving - people were ditching the game because their "idol" said the game was hopeless. THAT would be a fantastic topic to cover in your awesome videos.
Exactly this. The level of pissy teenagers and twenty somethings angry they had to get good at micro, learn a build, get good at at least 1 strategy per race. Fucking annoying. I spent months perfecting my 4-gate, my soul train, my proxy robo, my FFE into colossus push, just to then see the game completely change because of butthurt TL stans made me stop playing.
I remember 1-1-1 being unstoppable in TvP. PvZ was skewed in P’s favour though.
0:02 Reddit can be pretty funny sometimes
Oh no, the next video is where the MotherCore was created, worst time of my life, I think I left HotS because of it and I was Protoss, it was so so so so stupid... people could argue Widow Mines or Disruptors were bad but the MotherCore basically made me hate playing early game vs Protoss and where I started to abuse the Tri Stalker open from 2 Gates on every single mirror.
Ahh, I miss the original Void Rays
At the moment us server is imba, one full iteration ahead! ;-)
6 lings vs workers was gg back then... Today you'd be lucky to get 3 worker kills vs somebody with good micro.
WoL was peak SC2, all things must end unfortunately
makes me wonder, whatever happened to Squirtle?
2012 was indeed not a good year for sc2, but the sad thing is that every year since LotV has been another 2012, with Zerg winning almost every major tournament and consistently being 15% ahead of the next best race in performance. This consistent imbalance essentially killed sc2.
Really enjoyed this little trip diwn memory lane.
That void ray song really took me back. Good times!
But obligatory fuck the queen patch and subsequent BL infestor era. That was some of the most disgusting shit I had ever seen in a video game and of course the zerg players back then routinely downplayed it saying we just had to "learn to counter it instead of whining".
Both Brood Lords and Infestors spawn free units that are too powerful for it's own good. Of course, they fit the Zerg thematically, but this is too much that they have to be redesigned completely. WarCraft: Orcs and Humans also have the same problem, where you can spam Scorpions, Spiders, Water Elementals and Daemons to win any game without heavy investment.
I think the issue was more Zerg early game sucked so much nobody noticed how broken BL/Infestors were until Zerg could suddenly survive to late game.
Broodlord-Infestor I think was the worst SC2 balance has ever been. Not in terms of broken-ness, but more in the sense that it was a huge step in the wrong direction, with multiple issues that broke core RTS principles.
-Broodlord and infestor both spawned loads of free units, but were very slow. This encouraged players to drag the game out for as long as possible to win by attrition instead of trying to win by strategy/decisive engagements/positioning.
-Infestor broke the principles of what a support unit should be. It was a unit that could do large AOE, spawn armies that merked air and ground, control enemies... Just too many things.
-Fungal growth rooting units in place & being chainable is a departure from spells having counterplays. E.g. if you get hit by a storm, you can micro out of it for damage control. You can break force fields with massive units. Run away/isolate seeker missiled units. With fungal it was a case of "oh I got hit. There is nothing I can do now. Guess I just watch as I lose the game." Archon toilets were pretty bad but at least there was only one mothership, compared to there being no limit to the amount of infestors :P
I don't like ghost snipers countering ultralisks or viper yoinks just nabbing capital ships for free for this reason. Feels bad to have instant-kill options with very little counter-play options. But infestor was like psi-storm that held units in place.
I think things are nowhere near as bad as they are now as they were with WoL infestor-broodlord. But it is still a problem that zerg late game is so viper-dependent, and the viper is so overtooled to support ground with blinding cloud, steal capital ships/big value units, and the things that should counter on the ground like ghosts/high templars are zoned out by broodlords, whilst the things that should counter it in the sky like vikings are countered by parasitic bomb. And I really wish ultras were not countered by ghosts. It just feels so silly for the apex of zerg evolution to be owned by a little snipey boy whose job it is to deal with small, high value targets, not a giant tank ;P
Good video! I hope blink stalker and MMM, destiny cloud fist build makes it to pt ii. I think strategies like mass muta, marine marauder medic, muta ling bane, stalker + archon prism were the coolest because of the way your dudes just flowed across the map like water
- Free units shouldn't belong in a competitive RTS even though they fit the thematic fantasy of the Zerg, but SC2 wasn't the only game that fell victim to this issue. WarCraft: Orcs and Humans have a similar issue with Scorpion, Spider, Water Elemental and Daemon spamming.
- Support units shouldn't hold on their own, but assist the player's army with buffs that increases the strength of player's units, debuffs that weakens the enemy's units and/or environmental modifiers. Infestors are the exception, and they can win battles without the need of core army units like Zerglings, Roaches and Hydralisks.
- A similar ability, Plague had no counterplays for both Protoss and Zerg, the former being the most painful due to the lack of repair and regeneration abilities. Like Fungals, there is no way to dodge it. Only Terrans can mitigate this with Medic's Restoration ability.
- Ghosts sniping Ultras and Viper yoinking capital ships ruins believability. No, believability is not realism, it means that everything within a fictional world has to make sense. What type of bullets do Ghosts have that can kill Ultralisks so easily? How much force can a Viper's tentacle pull an entire Mothership in 1 second? If so, then it would have serious lore implications, like making capital ships pointless and obsolete thanks to a flock of Vipers, and, imagine Marines having that same type of caliber as Ghost's snipe. They'll win the war so easily!
RTS game developers should take note of these design issues and learn from them, so that they'll never make the same mistakes Blizzard did back then.
@@razorback9999able Definitely agree with everything. Thematically I think broodlord, infestor's terrans and swarmhosts are really cool and fit the zerg. I do sometimes wonder if it would've been better to design them like the protoss carrier, where they cost a modest sum of minerals to spawn their units, so that way they fit in better with the design principles of other units. And support units should support... Not do everything ;D
The funny thing is that they still made the exact same mistake in HotS when they introduced swarm hosts, producing the most boring games of sc2 history. Even now I wish they just removed them from the game.
Honestly I'm just annoyed at how many spells were made to do massive chunks of damage in an instant, instead of DOT. DOT basically blocks the incentive to mass up spellcasters because the "DPS" is maxed up pretty quickly, and just the casters become units waiting around not doing anything. As ludicrously powerful Plague was, it doesn't actually kill, and it doesn't inhibit mobility. So many of the more annoying spells in SC2 were chunk spells. Snipe, EMP, Disrupter ball, Neural basically takes away all HP and gives more DPS it to the Zerg, Queen heal, old Seeker Missile, Abduct was basically a OHKO onto a nest of Lurkers or Corrupters. And only exacerbated when people started implementing Rapidfire.
Guess what, Snipe was constantly changed over the years, EMP radius changed, Disruptor is annoying and unreliable, Queen heal was nerfed to be half instant, half over time, then blocked off creep, Seeker missile damage was removed completely to stop mass Ravens, Abduct got slightly nerfed to limit how quickly they could be cast.
If more spells were instead converted to DOT, you can rapidfire all you want but Ultras won't suddenly explode. You'd have to spread out your targets, and use more combat units who actually have high DPS because otherwise you have to wait for the DOT to wear off. Neural really should be a lot more expensive for being basically discount Mind Control on a caster that can burrow move. The Dark Archon rather fairly became a 10HP unit after using MC because free unit!
> And I really wish ultras were not countered by ghosts. It just feels so silly for the apex of zerg evolution to be owned by a little snipey boy whose job it is to deal with small, high value targets, not a giant tank ;P
Amen to that, it makes no semblance of sense. When I saw tanks gaining so much bonus dmg vs armored I thought that was where we're going, but apparently not.
Tell me that Squirtle vs Mvp moment wasn't unreal levels of hype though
best SC2 moment ever imo.
it is, to this day, regarded as the best match in GSL history
the unfortunate truth is that before the queen and overlord buffs, Zerg was a near unplayable stress-inducing mess because there was just this little box you were completely and utterly disallowed from leaving due to the absurd supremacy P and T could have early-game. for example, a normal pressure of hellions with 8 to 10 hellions today that can do some damage and slow Zerg down and keep their Lings at home, back before the Queen range buff could *straight-up just win the game completely,* and even at the pro level this could and did happen. if you werent an absolutely tip-top player it was completely and totally unfun to play as Zerg, you couldnt be aggressive because any aggression you put out could be instantly shut down, you couldnt eco without dumping every single ounce of your eco back into defending said eco, and you had no harassment options other than Mutalisks which in the early-days of Wings was pretty much your only Lair tech option and thus could easily be scouted and shut down and took a ridiculous amount of investment for that period of SC2, so if you got scouted and shut down you just immediately lose. these changes may have unleashed a terrible beast that made the game overall worse for the final stages of WOL, but they were *absolutely critical* to make Zerg an actually playable and competitive race at all skill levels in the long-term for SC2 as a whole, and, nowadays, if you reverted these changes Zerg would once again become entirely unplayable in the modern setting of post-LOTV. the problem was never the Queen and Overlord change, it was always with BL and Infestor. those units should never have been in the state they were in upon WOL initially releasing, period. Zerg as a whole was clearly the least-finished race out of the 3, having the least amount of attention brought to them during development, with the least amount of known development history, and with the least amount of functional replacements for BW things removed from the race compared to T or P.
Yeah, people forget how bad Zerg was for so long
1
11:56 Nestea Amoves into Ghosts without detection and expects to win. And Vikings with very few corruptors. You can see his 3 overseers fly over at the very end in a whoops moment. Too late after he realised he messed up. As well as not scouting that MVP had a bunch of vikings and he didn't have the infestor there on time. You're basically saying DTs are amazing, and game breaking. Yeh they are, if you Amove into them without detection then smash your fist on the keyboard to type out IMBA. Nestea lost because he made a massive error. Not because Ghosts are that good. If he had detection it would have evened out and most of the ghosts would be eaten by broodlings.
Nestea should have been told "git gud", not you're right Terran is OP.
The problem with Zerg not winning early Wings, and early any expansion, is the Zerg players themselves. Lazy, don't adapt. Didn't explore their own units (how long before Zergs decided to spread creep?). Fell back on Brood War strategies in a completely different game. Muta heavy not bothering to advance to Broodlords. Like you said they had the winning units, but didn't take advantage of them. They didn't want to adapt or micro. Terran started splitting marines, while Zerg continued to Amove banes around expecting to win from it, smashing their banes into tanks. (Same thing happened when widow mines were introduced, and don't mention "speedyvac" whines because Zerg couldn't punish every single drop they let into other base)
They had the best units and didn't play the infestor, the best unit in the game until very very late. People say they didn't until it was buffed, but if you look at the patch history it was nerfed, before Catz discovered it, then it was used widespread,
Temp0s Parody songs way better
How will this video teach RTS developers to learn from it?
bruh how do u talk about WoL balance when not even bringing up reaper rush? Literally the forced change where u must build a supply depot before a barracks....
Zerg is cancer and been op since 2015
lol cry more noob make sure you fill a jar of your salty tears for me and your mom to enjoy!
I wish you good luck with this game. It's over for me. Will never EVER watch or play it. It's over - they killed it. TOO MUCH. Sorry for unsubscribe but this is it. Good luck, thanks for beautiful videos !!!