Two little corrections: The default installed memory on board is actually 512K, expandable with additional 256K if you add the RAM expansion cartridge. Also, the price is not Canadian dollars as I assumed but plain old USD. Sorry for my mistakes!
@@Colin_Ames Adjusting for inflation it's still a fraction of the price of an 8 bit micro when they were new. I remember when 16k x 8 bit DRAM cost $279 US. Not 16 megs, 16k. The 512k in this machine would have cost almost $9000 in 1978 when I upgraded from 16k to 32k. This isn't about making the lowest cost item, it's about making an authentic 8 bit item. If you want the cheapest thing possible, buy a PC.
@@Peter_S_ I understand this, and I was not critical of its price, as my original comment shows. However, my statement about it being even less affordable is true.
@@Colin_Ames The fact is that it's FAR more affordable (by 2x-3x) than an 8 bit micro was when 8 bit micros were new. It's already less than half the price of when this tech was new and you are complaining about affordability which is the same as complaining about the price.
She could have vastly improved the design by not making it. You know what the world doesn't need? Another new overpriced retro computer with no software available.
@@tarstarkusz it's your choice to buy one or not and honestly it does not effect you in any way so I guess it's up to you if you want to be upset about it. However, I got to ask this comment was from a month ago why even say anything at all, when the rest of the world is clearly moving on?
@@lindoran Is there something wrong with you? Yeah, as a retro-computer enthusiast, this affects me. I have a right to comment just as you do. You want to be a suck-up, go right ahead. For me, I call it like I see it. The world does not need any new retrocomputers.
@@tarstarkusz I could ask the same question? Yes I'm autistic 100% there is something wrong with me, But thats not the point. Why pick my comment? I don't understand it. It was made a month ago, I can do nothing to solve your you dislike. Clearly I liked the video and the design language of the system. The only thing I can think is you wanted an argument. I hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere because it's late and quite honestly you won't find that from me. Take care.
@@lindoran It's called "social" media for a reason. Do you think there is a time limit for how long your comment has been there and when anyone can reply to it? A month is not a long time. I get replies from 10 year old comments. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, I was adding a different perspective.
ah.. not really there's some very fancy ones around these days, but no support. The best cheap one that's going to go places imho is the Picocomputer 6502
@@mercster A lot of the custom 8 bit machines just get bought, sit on shelves and are never powered on or ever have software written for them. You need something very cheap and with good potential if you ever want to get anywhere. Needs to be 240p with a lot of sprite pushing potential imho.
@@Jasonsadventures yes, lack of eco system, and like this it pertending to be c64, but it not, so not c64 stuff is goingt to work, and your still not in any eco system pond, and if you every learn anything it only going to be of use we this machine, this now one else uses or has even heard of thing, evnen if it the best machine, out there?
@@dh2032 You got me thinking about all the 80s games companies who targeted multiple computers. All of those computers were as different as the current retro computers. I'm thinking there's nothing wrong with learning several different machines, especially as there were and are only a very few different CPU architectures in common use. There are also relatively few different BASIC dialects.
Not really sure why all the hate is being directed at Jan for this. YES it is really expensive, but then maybe it's got a small audience which will mean a high price. All these computers are going to cost a pretty penny, Jan is just showing us the pros and cons. He's done similar for other devices. I like the repair videos, but I also like to see videos looking at this, so I don't think of shelling out more than a PS5 for something like this.
As unfair as it is, the "hate" is because these systems are by design, very limited, yet often cost as much as very capable, modern computers. At the same time, whilst they are reminiscent of computers we had in the '80s, not being based on any particular brand or model, they have no specific nostalgic draw. There are no existing software libraries or books exploring the intricacies of the hardware etc, nor large communities of users and forums. Compare this to old Atari, CBM, BBC, Tandy, MSX and Sinclair 8 bit computers etc. They're all available as emulators for free, they run on any PC, Mac or SBC, the software and books are usually downloadable for free, and large, vibrant communities exist for each. The Commander X16 has an emulator that's free... why buy really expensive hardware when you can experiencecit for free?At least the Agon II Light is only around 60 Euros.
@@another3997 there is a free emulator that emulates the F256 Jr now, and while I understand it's fun to explore paths that were well beaten ages ago, this lets you the opportunity to forge your way and make contributions that are significant
@@another3997 There's an emulator for this too, as well as an SBC-only version that costs much less because it strips out the cost of the case and keyboard. Yes, it's expensive, and for my money I'd rather have a MiSTer, but there is definitely something here. In particular, the custom video chip is very capable and provides something that simple recreations of vintage micros can not. It's essentially an answer to "what would 80s hobby computing enhanced with modern technology look like". For people who would enjoy tinkering with a simple enough single-user machine they can completely understand and control while getting more modern conveniences and expanded video output and quality capabilities, this looks like an excellent choice. A ton of work went into this, so I understand the price given it has to be amortised over a small run.
There wasn't a lot of "promotion" for the system yet, basically all mouth propaganda up til now. I hope the video gets it some well deserved attention. :)
I'm not a coder at all (and definitely not a 6502 assembler guy), but if I was then I'd seriously consider an F256K. Or maybe an F256 Junior if I couldn't stretch the funds... though the F256K is a _very_ good looking machine. Keen to see how the F256 ecosystem evolves as more of them get into the hands of more enthusiasts.
its so cool that there is a market for this kind of new-retro-pcs, but as i - obiviously - havent used one of this in my childhood my nostalogia-nerve isnt tickled at all.
This isn't really aimed at people such as yourself, any more than an industrial welding robot is aimed at someone joining a couple of steel bars. I find it strange when people go around saying their not interested in something that they have no interest in. I'm not interested I fishing... but I don't go around commenting on fishing rod reviews. 😂
Funny, that even this have basic name "Super Basic" I made early 90's c-64 basic extension, and I named at same. Then I realise later that Sinclair QL Basic is also Super Basic :D
X16 is in process of shipping first 100 units and just landed a donation from a wealthy CEO of an Austin-based company that sells AI products to enterprise customers - he's a fan of the 8-bit Guy and the X16 and is funding the next round of 1000 units. Guess he doesn't see it as a stupid project.
@@TheSulross It's considered a stupid project because it didn't end up being what it was supposed to be. It's all nice and well to change the specs over time, but it's dumb to pitch a $50 machine made out of off-the-shelf parts, and end up with a $500 machine that still relies on rare old chips (and that's after they stripped away the feature creep). Eh... I'll stick to actual retro computers rather than brand new machines that use the same old CPUs anyway.
@@Waccoon 50 Dollars was something he maybe mentioned all the way in the beginning? I never saw that amount. There's a lot of stuff being said about it that he actually had to correct, but it seems to stick. What I do agree with is that he use of old chips is a mistake, I get that he wants to keep it authentic, but I believe he added a FPGA anyway for a few things, better to then simply go all the way and make it fancy in another way.
Curious to see just how many of these retro style devices the market can handle as there are a good many which are all equally capable of doing exactly the same thing.
They will all be niche products produced in small batches based on orders. None of them will be mass produced. So in a way not really part of "the market" as we'd normally think about it.
@@andrewdunbar828 True, which is why I think it's great that there are so many choices out there now, along with more coming down the pike. It reminds me of how interesting and exciting the 8-bit era was 40 years ago, only on a smaller scale where the people producing these machines have realistic expectations of their sales potential.
Yes, beautifully designed as they may be, I'll stick to a Raspberry Pi that allows me to write just about any programming language I like and has a great choice of supported peripherals. That said, I would be very proud to be able to create a system like the F256K. It's a great accomplishment.
A good overview. I like the looks of the system, but the price is a little outside of my budget for such a device. I understand why it’s expensive and am not criticizing it for that, I just can’t afford one.
Very cool project, but couldn't that Cyclon replicate all of the functionalities of the chips present on the PCB? The IV go up to like 150K LEs which would be plenty. Would likely make parts sourcing easier as well. I guess I'm a bit confused by the design.
They probably wanted to go with 0 custom ASICS / FPGAs, but then gave up when they realized there isn't any off the shelf 8-bit video chips like there used to be back in the MSX days. Still though, the sound design confuses me, if they have an OPL chip then they don't need a second fantasy sound chip (emulated by the second fpga)... Also... Two FPGAs should definitely not be necessary... So yeah... definitely questionable.
@@BrainSlugs83 You definitely don't speak like somebody who has a history of hardware design. There's definitely plenty of reason to use multiple FPGAs in a design. Exactly why would you contend otherwise?
It is because, it is not my philosophy to integrate everything in 1 FPGA like the Mister or Mega65 or any new retro computer. The philosophy is to try to bring the whole retro experience, the feel, the look, the interaction. There would be no point into doing that, it would be the most boring thing to do and if it was the case I would have never got involved in this because anybody can get themselves an eval board and make a Misterboard or get a Raspi. Some people find those interesting, good for them, that's not what my goal was and still to this day. And... I totally understand people that don't get it either, in the end, either you love it or you don't! ;) Cheers
@@stefanyallaire That makes a lot of sense. And you're absolutely right, I'm more in the "make everything as tightly integrated as possible" fraction. I always have to smile when I see projects that use an ESP32 via serial to give their Arduino UNO network connectivity, thinking "you could have implemented your entire project on that ESP" 😅. I guess that also explains why there are two FPGAs. Basically, assume they serve one function each. Again very very cool project!
The case and pcb design is great. Pcb components are placed not only functional but also asceticly. The red power switch looks similar to what I've ordered from Mouser. ;)
This system is for sale already! The Commander 16 still not. The screen specs of this machine aren’t as highres as the X16 and has “only” 64 sprites. Although it has 3 layers compared to 2. But other than that it is a very nice machine! Well done Foenix!
Interesting system. I would be interested in the FNX 6809 option for it as I really like the 6809. I'm currently working on a personal project that uses a 6809 system that will in to an Altoids mint tin.
I don't get why it ships with a 6502 variant instead of a 65816 variant. The 65816 can run in 6502 mode if desired, while having the opportunity to run in the much, much better native 65816 mode. Given that you CAN use a 65816 variant, it just strikes me as odd not to include that CPU by default.
You and I know that the 65816 is awesome, but Stefany has said she feels there's an (undeserved!) stigma about the 65816 that it's harder to program for, and that it might scare away some of the 6502 fans (who apparently don't know that the 6502 is in every way in improvement). Also, even with a 65816, you still don't get 24-bit addressing in the F256 line. Making the 65816 the standard might make people think at a glance that this is a full 65816-based system. Including it as an optional replacement for the 6502 sends the message about this system's limits. (Incidentally, for a full 65816 machine, see her C256 line, although I'm not sure she's taking any orders for that line at the moment.)
They sell it with a 65816 for about $10 more, I think the rational in offering the 6502 as standard is to appeal to all the retro crowd to know that processor well.
@@frixyg2050 et al - I'd think you could just market it as having a "6502-compatible 65816", which it is. I can't remember for sure, but I think it boots in 6502 mode. It's a shame you don't get full full 24-bit addressing on the one line though. I can imagine it might cut the cost on the mobo, but still. That's one of the big selling points of a 65816. Oh well, I'm not really the target audience anyway. These days I prefer writing for a fantasy console with easier code work but strict display/sound/memory restrictions, like PICO-8, because it prevents scope creep and challenges me. I just know from SNES programming that I way prefer 65816 and would never want to go back. It's still very retro imho, but the 16-bit registers make it so much less painful to do boilerplate stuff where it's not technically a challenge, it's just grunt work.
I noticed some criticism of the price. A Sinclair Spectrum cost around £149 in 1983 which equates to around £647.61 today. A Commodore 64 was around £200 which is £863.47 today. Both needed an external cassette player and a television. For the Spectrum you could get cassette players for around £25, or less, £107 today, and televisions would obviously vary depending on screen size and whether it was colour or monochrome. I couldn't find a price but ours was a rental and a few pounds a month. In those days ordinary people couldn't afford to buy. I believe that puts it into perspective although I would go for a Pi400 and some emulators to play old games. I love my A500 mini for playing old Amiga games.
The CPU runs @ 1/4 of the Video lock 25.175MHz which allows the system to implement a shared memory system like the C64. If the CPU was running full speed we could not do it then we would need two different buffers shared with FIFOs and it becomes lot less efficient.
who cares of price, its a nice video about a retro style machine.. watch it and enjoy... i will not get it but still enjoy the video. i would not pay 50€ for it, i prefer the old stuff... for when a new keyboard for atari st or amiga?? 😂
the FNX1591 can run as a standalone for your C64. You just have to flash it your own JiffyDOS or equivalent. Many have gone that route without buying the F256K or the other computers
Yes it can work as an 1581 drive connected to a c64 I ordered one and works great on my ultimate 64 , flashed it with JiffyDos 1581 version and it's lightning fast!
More computer languages should have an "explode" command. What I find impressive is someone designing modern hardware on their own. Yes, there's a 6502-ish and those are easy to understand, just like 8-bit computers are easy to understand, hardware-wise. It's a different kettle of fish as soon as you start designing your own custom chips. Yes, the principles are all there and in essence not that difficult, but to design a system from scratch? "Daunting" is the word that comes to mind.
I kind of heard about it. The production model is still not available though. I’d definitely be interested in reviewing the X16 when the time comes (although I doubt they’d send me a review device, they have the UA-cam exposure pretty much covered I guess).
Yeah, this one looks like much smaller production scale. So much manual work included, with the 3D printed parts etc. Still immensely impressive machine. I don't like the design or colors, but that's personal taste. Also all these full fledged machines are quite expensive once imported to Germany. Be it the Foenix256, Commander X16 or Mega65. All will cost you upward of 500€, which makes sense as they are all low volume and not super highly integrated as they could be, but that's part of the hobby: to have machines made of discrete components so you can tinker with them. I guess the Agon is the cheapest in the bunch but also the most barebone. Probably caters to a different audience.
Oh! That is perfectly styled to appeal to me! :D Diagonal slots like the _best_ 80s designs (XD) and the key colors are fun too. Oh there's a matching disk drive! Now I have to get one! hehehe 512K flash storage! My old Ataris supported 180K _disks!_ lol I'm not complaining. :) I didn't have a disk drive back in the day, but I recently learned just how small 180KB is when using an emulator. I think I could get used to 512KB internal storage. :D
now you can navigate using your favorite BBS station and play the moder games such Pac Man,space invaders,and dev commercial software with the powerfull BASIC Language...wow....
Would love one but $600 is too steep for a toy like this, i understand why it is that price but even if i hadnt not long lost my job, its about 3x as much as id pay. Shame it looks great.
It has digital DVI out which can be used as an HDMI signal (no sound though) with a simple adapter. I found it difficult to have my HDMI monitor cooperate with the Foenix screen modes though, VGA was just plug and play.
HDMI has licensing fees. DVI is compatible and doesn't have those fees and as Jan stated is also compatible with VGA. I use DVI to HDMI or VGA cables at home and they work fine.
@@andrewdunbar828 It's just a different plug, the signals are the same, completely passive. You may run into issues with HDMI devices not supporting the output resolutions from the Foenix though.
Can anyone name a reason for the floppy disk drive? Is it to copy your old C64 disks? Or to make new games and put them on a disk that will work on your C64? But if you already have a C64 with a disk drive, you can plug that disk drive into the Foenix. So it seems like a disk drive that you'd only need for your C64, if you don't have a disk drive for your C64, and it still serves no purpose for the Foenix.
@@VincentGroenewoldI agree, the X16 is a prime example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. It really is the complete antithesis of what the 8 bit guy first envisioned. The C65 is interesting, but at the same time, it is hugely expensive, but has the same problems as most "new retro machines... there's no existing software libraries, no books detailing every facet of the hardware and OS, and no huge communities like for real '80s machines.
Nice somehow, but seems to be a bit too complicated for a former C64 USER.. not programmer. Programm here, kernal there - I'm not sure, if I could even get it running :-(
The basic setup is just plug & play. Software is mostly still in development so it's a bit tricky to get it to run. I'm going to talk about that in the next video.
Let's face it, yhe Foenix has more chance of winning a general election than UKIP ever had! The Foenix is a damn sight more useful than all the UKIP members put together, because whilst it might be slow... at least it will actually get something done. 😂
There’s the Foenix Jr version that is the bare circuit board without keyboard/case but same functionality otherwise. Way less expensive and more customizable. ;)
@@JanBeta new device model, for which, due to the lack of software, almost nothing can be done for price that enough for buy 1-2 very old rare devices?
An informative video. Thanks Jan! But it is sponsored advertising, which should also be marked with a permanent insertion in the video. Unfortunately, this permanent notice is missing. I don't find that cool at all. In addition, I find the price for the computer and the accessories to be comically exaggerated.
The sponsor for the video is PCBWay, I didn't receive any money from Foenix Retro Systems nor any directions on how to make the video. Stephany just provided the review unit(s) which I happen to like a lot. I clearly stated that both in the video itself and in the video description. The video is also clearly marked as sponsored through the UA-cam functionality.
Even if it were the case, refusing to buy a product you're interested in, just because you don't like Discord as a platform, is rather silly. I don't like the layout of my local Tesco Supermarket... but they usually sell what I want at reasonable prices, so I shop there. I don't like Facebook per se, but I joined several groups on there because that's where the people and knowledge I wanted access to gather together. Nose, Spite and Face?
@@another3997 I would agree, but in your analogy the second I walked into Tesco for the very first time I was instantly banned for zero reason. It is not a choice, the very first time I created an account to join Discord on first log in I didn't even get to finish loading the landing screen. I was able to get in with an "oops our bad" only to be banned again 2 weeks later without a reason or explanation. Their systems are broken, their support is broken, it is a garbage platform and I refuse to even try to get back onto it. If people choose to put their projects solely into Discord they will find that there is a significant portion of the public who cannot access them. These are not people who have broken the terms of service, these are people who Discord's broken systems are alienating. That is the price these projects pay for putting all their eggs in a flawed basket, a significantly reduced user base. So no, I am not cutting off my nose to spite my face, I am protecting my sanity from Discord's garbage platform.
I did. In this day and age, having access to games is no longer a problem. Games of any type: modern, retro, any system. This machine is for hacking away and wrapping your mind around its architecture and learning to program for these old cpus and sound chips in an environment that's both limited compared to modern standards, yet very freeing compared to the 80's.
This Nintendo controller rubbish is something I already disliked on 8bit-guys computer. The best joypad is the first gen PlayStation pad. You can buy plenty for cheap and with a cheap adaptor you can use them @ your pc or retropie. All you need is USB. Yes, it is newer and so is DVI. But hey we should be happy with all these enthusiasts.
I think you'll find what you have there is called "an opinion". It is not necessarily one that is shared by everyone else. As the saying goes, you can't please all of the people, all of the time. I'm more concerned that the Foenix is too expensive for many retro hobbyists, especially as it is incompatible with any "real" retro computer that we may have had back in the day.
It's a boutique product and consider the Apple I sold for $666.66 in 1977 dollars which is $3,345.70 in 2023 dollars, and it was considerably less capable. The Apple ][ was quite a bit more expensive still.
The F256 Jr is far cheaper with practically the same functionality so that'd make sense for someone with many components laying around, but bring your own lots-of-things: Sid chips, keyboard, power supply - may as well cut the hunt, import fees and get a really nicely put together, guaranteed to work F256K instead!
@@VincentGroenewold Sorry I didn't realise it was $595 Canadian dollars. It converts to £355 UK sterling. That is a very reasonable price for a well designed niche computer. It certainly will give the Commander X16 a run for its money. I've got to admit it is one hell of a good looking machine. Looking forward to seeing what it can do in the hands of a skilled programmer.
Ein weiterer sinnloser Emulator. Ein bisschen was vom Commander vom 8bit Guy hat die Maschine aber ansonsten ist es der gefühlt 159. Neu- oder Nachbau von irgendwelchen nicht kompatiblen 8-Bit Geräten die eigentlich nur der Erbauer irgendwie gebrauchen kann. Alles was man damit machen könnte ginge mit einem Raspberry Pi ja auch. Sorry, ich musste das mal sagen, aber optisch ist das Gerät sehr gut gelungen und heißt nicht schon wieder C64 oder Amiga-New irgendwas 😉
Ofcourse, the other way to see these things is... them not existing at all, no revivals, no new takes on old stuff. I think it's great we even have these.
@@VincentGroenewold Yes, sorry, if you don't know all this yet, it's new and fascinating for you. I forgot to mention that I experienced the 8 bit technology from the C64 and KC85 on myself. My first homemade computer was with a U8830 CPU.
@@harihegen Me too, I still have my original C16 and Amiga, I just meant to say I like this a lot as well as the form factor makes it not, just a Raspberry Pi. It isn't, it 's a mix.
@@harihegenYou're not the only one who experienced the heyday of 8 bit computing. I got my first computer in November 1981. And yes, in many ways I agree with your sentiments, but I also like the idea of an instant on, boot in to BASIC, easily understandable, all in one computer... but not at that price. The Agon II Light is far more affordable, even if it's not inside a fancy keyboard.
I don't get the point on this things. They are no retro, they are new hardware cheaply buit, with no software or the expectative of even having any, and an inflated price tag... Electronic trash sooner rather than later.
6502 cores are still shipping hundreds of millions of units every year. Your microwave oven might have one. This is a machine suitable to doing the same learning that I used to start a career as a hardware design engineer and programmer. Perhaps an encyclopedia looks like a toy if you only look at the pictures?
Annoying video doesnt mention price (well not in first 10 mins) so I went to link. $595. DREAM ON!!!! Not interested in slightest. Its not gonna get traction at that price so expect precious little software for it. Keyboard keys wobble and its custom so no chance to fix or replace with better. How much was Jan paid for this glorified advert!??
but why not make this video? no matter what kind of retro device you will make, it will ALWAYS be expensive because of the low volume of these systems. it is simply NOT possible to make an open system cheap. however, it could be a discussion point what kind of improvements could be done to make it more attractive and maybe cheaper or maybe to split investments into multiple batches. a bit more constructive criticism would be appreciated. here for example some REAL points that could help: * making the keyboard external by adding a raspberry pi pico inside. it could handle a ps/2 keyboard, usb or bluetooth and has wifi for online communication/gaming/cartridge updates. that costs about 5€. much cheaper than making a c64 style keyboard. * making a new case that is similar AND compatible to a classic atari 2600 case. with two added holes in the front for joysticks. and extra holes on the back for all the other stuff. AND compatible to old 2600 (junior) motherboards. this could be made as a separate kickstarter project to get investors for making a mold for mass production. there are many atari 2600 juniors around that look like shit and would benefit from that classic case look. i could imagine that there are many people out there who could invest 1000$ for making an injection mold and get paid back up to 2000$ if enough cases have been sold with profit. * empty game cartridges: a kickstarter project could invest into making batches of 1000 or 5000 pieces of empty cartridges for game makers. a microcontroller with decryption software connected to a cheap nor-flash. game-makers could buy batches of 10, 100, 500 etc. with a bit of a markup but giving game makers a cheap way to distribute games. again, if a cartridge standard should be established, the question could be, if there could be a compatibility of the cartridge case with a c64 cartridge, or an atari 2600 or 7800 cartridge. it would make sense to invest in molds that could have a higher volume and multiple purpose.
@@jameswellburne You're wrong. There are gay muslims and gay christians and there are also straight muslims and straight christians who have no problem with and fully accept their gay and bi brethren.
@@Peter_S_ There are also women with two heads. They are the exception, not the rule. This is why no company dares to display the broken rainbow (without pink) in their Saudi Arabian subsidiary.
At $600+ it definitely will be a bestseller. It's just that I don't understand why the same $40 256KB RAM upgrade (sold separately) costs $45 when you add it to the F256K computer (where you choose the extra options).
It's already EOL today. I think if the machine ran on a single RP2350 instead of an FPGA, it would cost 200 bucks perhaps, and be more powerful at the same time.
Another SuperBASIC? Looks interesting. The BASIC on the QL was called SuperBASIC and included many of the powerful features found in BBC BASIC with a few of its own allowing new commands to be created by the user. Unfortunately due to hardware limitations and the ROM being optimised for compactness and not speed, it didn't run that quickly. It was still a very nice language. I'll be interested to see how the new SuperBASIC compares with regards to features and specifications.
It's a little odd that the joystick ports don't support mice. Quadrature mice like the ones used on the Amiga and ST are purely digital devices, supporting them only requires a couple of hardware counters hooked up to the L/R/U/D lines on the joystick port.
I also got one recently and I'm loving it as a tinkerer first with some limited 6502 assembly experience under my belt, thanks to the Ben Eater series of videos on the 6502 breadboard computer. This seems like a logical step (leap!) from that point.
It does seem like a very logical, and luxury step from a breadboard 6502. Hopefully a decent assembler/linker will be developed or is already available. As long as you have peek, poke, and call, a decent starter assembler can always be written in BASIC.
@@Peter_S_ I'm already set up with Visual Studio 2019, compiling and linking using 64tass, producing a .bin file that can be sent anywhere using the USB debug cable. the emulator has recently been improved to include a workable debugger with breakpoints
@@anybitfeverdreams Excellent! Being able to use something like Visual Studio to code on something like this is an amazing luxury! At Atari they used a VAX for a lot of the writing in a similar vein. As somebody who goes back to 1978 on 6502, this looks like a fun and well done system.
Looks a great little machine. Always love small wedge form factors (must be due to having a Plus/4 oh so many years ago) and this one has good looks without being garish but definitely being it’s own style.Stephanie and her software collaborators have made an interesting little retro box - can’t wait to find out more, so I hope Jan provides 😊 Great video, Jan, giving an overview of this little beastie - many thanks!
As an old C64, C128 and Amiga lover and owner, I was really confused at least until the middle of the video what the F256K actually IS given all the similarities that it has with the Commodore 8bitters. An Emulator? Something standalone? ...then in the middle of the video I felt like I have to investigate, since Jan prolly wouldn't tell, as carried away as he got. And then I didn't bother continuing to watch at THAT price. Agreed, the hardware is very well built. But it's nuts if you've got your old machines readily available and working, like me.... So, next time: An Introduction PLEASE! @Janbeta
Sorry if it wasn't clear from the video what the Foenix actually is. I thought "new retro computer" would pretty much give it away but obviously "retro" can mean lots of things these days. ;)
Thanks for showcasing this system as I had no idea about it at all. But just based on the specs alone it comes across so far to me like a more powerful PC Engine/Turbo Grafx 16. You get the rich FM sound and versatility of the OPL3, 16 million colors, multi-layered graphics, tile and bitmap mode with large sprites plus native hardware scrolling, and ample system/video memory to play with. I kinda winced at the price but it's definitely not unreasonable and understandable given it's grassroots production. I am interested to see any game examples if they are out there as I think this is a great system so far. 😃
The charm of the PC Engine being the restricted colour palette (512 colours) and the wavetable sound chip with full stereo panning, FM sucks unless it is from a Korg DS-8 or DX7 with good delay/reverb....
Apart from the in-line assembly, what made BBC Basic more useful than most was the FUNC() and PROC() commands which allowed using Functions (with return value) and Procedure (with no return value). Very powerful.
Unfortunately it's not possible for BBC BASIC to be legally ported over to any 6502-based machines at the moment. Seems like nobody is 100% sure who owns the rights to it, because they've changed hands so many times and the original paperwork is missing (or at least that's what I've read around various forums and groups).
Func() and Proc() were from COMAL (another structured basic dialect with PASCAL elements), Bbc Basic had DefFn() and DefProc() and was based on Comal in turn. "American" Basic dialects like Quick Basic, True Basic, Ansi Basics ecc. were more in the FORTRAN style and used SUB rather then PROC
@@giuseppe74921 Didn't know that. Will look up COMAL at some point for a crack. I was of course, comparing to the BASICs of the time/place e.g. UK home computers, specifically Sinclairs, Commodores and Tandy/Dragon - none of which had definable procedures/functions (just gosub, which, let's be honest, is terrible).
@@simmo1024 The Comal interpreter had several versions, there was a version for almost every computer from the c64 to the PC (i tried the Amiga version it is quite good). The problem was that it was not in the rom of 8bits computers (c64 ecc. so u had to have the cartdrige inserted if u had one, like Simons Basic, if u made a program, people using your program had to have the cartridge too, so it was not very useful). Also Comal made it too far from basic and too much toward Pascal (for example variabile assignements were done like in pascal/c with := so in some way it felt more like a new kind of interpreted language and not very much like Basic, i think it had some success only in its motherland, Sweden i think, as a teaching language in schools), bbc basic took lots of things from Comal but stil felt 100% like basic, it was very powerful and was in the rom of the computer, in Italy the Bbc master 128 was rebranded as Olivetti Prodest 128s, since Olivetti acquired Acorn in that period, and it was much advertised on TV, but it was not a great success since the C=64 had a massive base of users i think, and it was already Amiga time if I well remember, but i remember some "List" type-in computer magazines had some Archimedes and Olivetti Prodest 128s lbasic listings, and I thought wow, how elegant is this basic! In the magazines they often said it was the best basic and it was also very fast (Sorry for my bad english and long post)
I guess the idea is to have original dedicated chips (like the CPU and the OPL3 chip) and only use the FPGA as a replacement for what would have been custom chips in a vintage system.
After reading your comment I did a top level reverse engineering and I see things very differently as a hardware designer. 27 chips with 8 or more pins; most of the chips are for special purpose memories (devices: 5), specialized I/O (devices: 14) or level shifting (devices: 5) to/from the FPGAs. The remainder are 2 FPGSs and the CPU. Most of those are special purpose where you're not going to just place the function in an FPGA. FPGAs make lousy real time clock chips for example. You want a Cyclone to act like a Wolfson CODEC or Max232? Nope. It's also beyond pointless to use an FPGA for FLASH storage here. Cyclone IV is a family of devices with members ranging from cheap to almost $1000 per chip. Look up the EP4CGX150DF31I7. Here it obviously made sense to implement part of the design in the Efinix FPGA or it would have simply gone into the Cyclone used. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Honestly I don't see any other chip besides the CPU itself which could be placed in the FPGA if you want to buffer the signals. If you want to split hairs then the keyboard interface 6522 could have been emulated at the cost of the I/O pads on an FPGA. The I/O cost likely makes it cheaper externally with a 6522 and you get 6522 drive/robustness which the delicate Cyclone lacks. Please cite specifics if you disagree.
not replace every chip (surely not RAM) but the Cyclone IV would be powerful enough to implement CPU, video and audio of the F256K system. Consider the MiST device (Cyclone IV based, dating several years ago): it does emulate a whole Commodore Amiga with 68000, and its custom chips.
@@Peter_S_But the point is still valid. Once you start using FPGAs, the use of separate chips for various tasks becomes more difficult to justify. Why not just use ONE suitable FPGA for CPU, sound and graphics etc, rather than several chips? The cost and complexity is massively reduced, resulting in a cheaper product, easier to produce and easier to maintain.
@@another3997 LOL, no it's not valid. How many FPGA based products have you designed? I'm going to guess zero. Tell me if that's incorrect. I already pointed out cost vs FPGA size. I also pointed out it's not economical to emulate big memories. I also pointed out that 14 of the chips are special purpose including analog and involve I/O the FPGA simply cannot do. 5 more are level shifters which are always necessary, and the rest are memories, CPU, and FPGA. FPGAs have their place, and here you can see what that place is if you wish to learn.
This machine seems wayyyy better thought out and designed than the Commander X16 project. Love seeing the custom integrated keyboard wedge case design rather than dumb unimaginative modern PC form factor stuff.
This machine is really fascinating to me. I hope you do more videos on this computer. I want to get one of the higher end ones they have, but I just don't have that kind of money right now.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K is a new retro 8-bit computer with a classic form factor reminiscent of systems from the 80s and early 90s.* 01:23 ⌨️ *The keyboard design of the Phoenix F256K is similar to the Commodore 64 keyboard, featuring modern switches and custom keycaps.* 03:02 🏗️ *The computer comes in a high-quality resin-printed case and has an expansion slot for RAM upgrades and cartridges.* 04:23 🕹️ *It has standard Atari-style joystick ports compatible with common Atari joysticks and supports three separate fire buttons.* 05:45 🔄 *The Phoenix F256K offers various connectivity options, including USB, Wi-Fi, a headphone jack, and RCA audio output.* 08:53 💽 *It supports a 3.5-inch floppy disk drive compatible with the Commodore 1581, providing additional storage options.* 12:51 🧠 *The computer features a W65C02S processor, expandable RAM, and integrated graphics and sound chips.* 18:21 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K boots instantly into Super BASIC and supports modern features like syntax highlighting and indentation.* 23:49 🎮 *The system can display 64 sprites simultaneously, has smooth scrolling, and includes an inline assembler for programming.* 26:47 💰 *The Phoenix F256K is available for purchase at $595 and is made to order due to its low volume production.* 27:12 📦 *The computer features a 3D printed resin case and can be ordered from the website, with the order period extended to mid-July.* 27:54 🖥️ *There's an emulator available for the Phoenix Junior, a similar system, which allows you to experiment with the system's capabilities on your modern computer.* 28:20 🌟 *The Phoenix F256K is part of a growing trend of new retro systems inspired by the computers of the 80s and 90s.* retrotechlab.com
I love this idea, however at that price, I would need more incentive to buy it, than just the prospect of easily writing BASIC programs. I've said it before: A system lives or dies on the strength of its software library. If people were to start writing some incredible games that I wanted to play, that would be likely to entice me to want one.
The problem is the software, is anyone going to write for it. Personally I would have based it on an existing 6502 platform with software, and made it compatible. A BBC+++ comes to mind.
Nice new 8 bit retro computer, $600 is a lot of money for just the basic model, but I understand it's expensive and takes a lot of work to get something like this into production. My concern is mostly that the community will shrink very fast and 12 months from now almost everyone lost interest. Just like the big retro releases like Spectrum Next and the MEGA65. Whereas with something like the original C64, there will always be a community.
@@frixyg2050 I don't really have a problem with the cost, I think the one you refer to is the board only version with no case and no keyboard. I was more comparing to the maxed out version that goes for $1,349 in their shop. My concern is how much time will you spend with this before it ends up on a shelf never to be powered on again compared to an original C64/C128/Amiga etc. It really depends on the size of the community. Cheers, Jake
i dont think the spectrum next community has shrunk there will be about 5000 new user going to that community ion just a few months and they are also producing a lot of games for that machine. Is probably the most successful retro computer remake.
This looks like what the Commander X16 should have been, entry level $200 for a motherboard only version you can slap into a mini-itx case. F256K is kind of pricey at almost $600 though but it looks incredibly well put together. Main thing is these are available to purchase and have lots of upgrades and tinkering you can do because all the glue logic is FPGA based.
yes it's real hard where, but, but for the price, you would get a lot of hardware, to run a emulator/simulator of your classic 70's, 80's,, 90's machine on, it on going to be a real machine, but at least going to be almost 100% compatible, to the really thing, and changing you mind, going with different model is just software download away? and some of the emulator even run as the system OS, and and with a bit extra work could just boot from USB memory/drive think, and could even be just plugged any machine that will just power up, monitor and keyboard, (and mouse if your chosen emulator needs one)?
At least the X16 has a community, tons of software will be (and are already) written for it and. The price will fall the 2nd/3rd gen. I don't see nohing coming for projects like Foenix or Picocomputer 6502. Still very impressive work, though.
Two little corrections: The default installed memory on board is actually 512K, expandable with additional 256K if you add the RAM expansion cartridge. Also, the price is not Canadian dollars as I assumed but plain old USD. Sorry for my mistakes!
That makes it even less affordable 🙁
@@Colin_Ames Adjusting for inflation it's still a fraction of the price of an 8 bit micro when they were new. I remember when 16k x 8 bit DRAM cost $279 US. Not 16 megs, 16k. The 512k in this machine would have cost almost $9000 in 1978 when I upgraded from 16k to 32k. This isn't about making the lowest cost item, it's about making an authentic 8 bit item. If you want the cheapest thing possible, buy a PC.
@@Peter_S_ I understand this, and I was not critical of its price, as my original comment shows. However, my statement about it being even less affordable is true.
@@Colin_Ames The fact is that it's FAR more affordable (by 2x-3x) than an 8 bit micro was when 8 bit micros were new. It's already less than half the price of when this tech was new and you are complaining about affordability which is the same as complaining about the price.
Real dollars not Canadian.
A single person did this project? That's incredible.
It is very impressive indeed!
Stephanie is an AMAZING hardware designer/engineer.
I really love the design language on this. She did an excellent job on everything right down to the debug port! USB mini B is by far my favorite!
She could have vastly improved the design by not making it.
You know what the world doesn't need? Another new overpriced retro computer with no software available.
@@tarstarkusz it's your choice to buy one or not and honestly it does not effect you in any way so I guess it's up to you if you want to be upset about it. However, I got to ask this comment was from a month ago why even say anything at all, when the rest of the world is clearly moving on?
@@lindoran Is there something wrong with you?
Yeah, as a retro-computer enthusiast, this affects me. I have a right to comment just as you do. You want to be a suck-up, go right ahead. For me, I call it like I see it. The world does not need any new retrocomputers.
@@tarstarkusz I could ask the same question? Yes I'm autistic 100% there is something wrong with me, But thats not the point. Why pick my comment? I don't understand it. It was made a month ago, I can do nothing to solve your you dislike. Clearly I liked the video and the design language of the system. The only thing I can think is you wanted an argument. I hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere because it's late and quite honestly you won't find that from me. Take care.
@@lindoran It's called "social" media for a reason. Do you think there is a time limit for how long your comment has been there and when anyone can reply to it? A month is not a long time. I get replies from 10 year old comments.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, I was adding a different perspective.
Cool design. I’d love to see it pushed to the limit.
Will it play Crysis?
Please do a series on this if you can. I think it's by far the most exciting of the current crop of retro computers.
ah.. not really there's some very fancy ones around these days, but no support. The best cheap one that's going to go places imho is the Picocomputer 6502
@@Jasonsadventures What do you mean by "support"?
@@mercster A lot of the custom 8 bit machines just get bought, sit on shelves and are never powered on or ever have software written for them. You need something very cheap and with good potential if you ever want to get anywhere. Needs to be 240p with a lot of sprite pushing potential imho.
@@Jasonsadventures yes, lack of eco system, and like this it pertending to be c64, but it not, so not c64 stuff is goingt to work, and your still not in any eco system pond, and if you every learn anything it only going to be of use we this machine, this now one else uses or has even heard of thing, evnen if it the best machine, out there?
@@dh2032 You got me thinking about all the 80s games companies who targeted multiple computers. All of those computers were as different as the current retro computers. I'm thinking there's nothing wrong with learning several different machines, especially as there were and are only a very few different CPU architectures in common use. There are also relatively few different BASIC dialects.
Not really sure why all the hate is being directed at Jan for this. YES it is really expensive, but then maybe it's got a small audience which will mean a high price. All these computers are going to cost a pretty penny, Jan is just showing us the pros and cons. He's done similar for other devices. I like the repair videos, but I also like to see videos looking at this, so I don't think of shelling out more than a PS5 for something like this.
As unfair as it is, the "hate" is because these systems are by design, very limited, yet often cost as much as very capable, modern computers. At the same time, whilst they are reminiscent of computers we had in the '80s, not being based on any particular brand or model, they have no specific nostalgic draw. There are no existing software libraries or books exploring the intricacies of the hardware etc, nor large communities of users and forums. Compare this to old Atari, CBM, BBC, Tandy, MSX and Sinclair 8 bit computers etc. They're all available as emulators for free, they run on any PC, Mac or SBC, the software and books are usually downloadable for free, and large, vibrant communities exist for each. The Commander X16 has an emulator that's free... why buy really expensive hardware when you can experiencecit for free?At least the Agon II Light is only around 60 Euros.
@@another3997 there is a free emulator that emulates the F256 Jr now, and while I understand it's fun to explore paths that were well beaten ages ago, this lets you the opportunity to forge your way and make contributions that are significant
@@another3997 don't buy it then eh
@@stefanimal5257 I doubt many will.
@@another3997 There's an emulator for this too, as well as an SBC-only version that costs much less because it strips out the cost of the case and keyboard. Yes, it's expensive, and for my money I'd rather have a MiSTer, but there is definitely something here. In particular, the custom video chip is very capable and provides something that simple recreations of vintage micros can not. It's essentially an answer to "what would 80s hobby computing enhanced with modern technology look like". For people who would enjoy tinkering with a simple enough single-user machine they can completely understand and control while getting more modern conveniences and expanded video output and quality capabilities, this looks like an excellent choice. A ton of work went into this, so I understand the price given it has to be amortised over a small run.
I am inpressed with what I see here. Very nice introduction. Hope to see some more advanced videos in the near future. Excellent video as always ...
Love the colours
Definitely!
They are so screaming ugly.
great video, great shirt, great computer! Jan your a great man! Would be nice to see more videos on this great computer
I'm working on a follow up at the moment.
How is it I've never heard a single peep about this system till today? This is amazing!
There wasn't a lot of "promotion" for the system yet, basically all mouth propaganda up til now. I hope the video gets it some well deserved attention. :)
Wow ! This is the first new computer I have ever seen that has basic built into it ! Very nice !!!
The Agon light also has BBC basic built in.
Spectrum next also has basic built in
I'm not a coder at all (and definitely not a 6502 assembler guy), but if I was then I'd seriously consider an F256K. Or maybe an F256 Junior if I couldn't stretch the funds... though the F256K is a _very_ good looking machine. Keen to see how the F256 ecosystem evolves as more of them get into the hands of more enthusiasts.
Thanks for presenting this super interesting computer to us! I don‘t understand why no body else is talking about it!
its so cool that there is a market for this kind of new-retro-pcs, but as i - obiviously - havent used one of this in my childhood my nostalogia-nerve isnt tickled at all.
This isn't really aimed at people such as yourself, any more than an industrial welding robot is aimed at someone joining a couple of steel bars. I find it strange when people go around saying their not interested in something that they have no interest in. I'm not interested I fishing... but I don't go around commenting on fishing rod reviews. 😂
@@another3997 😂😂😂
@@another3997 Fishing does not damage ecology as much as wasting irrecuperable resources and energy on useless toys.
It looks like a funky machine; interesting to see further videos on it.
Funny, that even this have basic name "Super Basic" I made early 90's c-64 basic extension, and I named at same. Then I realise later that Sinclair QL Basic is also Super Basic :D
looks so much better than other monstrosities out there.
other monstrosities? like what? ... sorry I'm new to the scene but I'm interested in retro stuff
@@joel230182 I think they meant another stupid toy named "Commander X16"
X16 is in process of shipping first 100 units and just landed a donation from a wealthy CEO of an Austin-based company that sells AI products to enterprise customers - he's a fan of the 8-bit Guy and the X16 and is funding the next round of 1000 units. Guess he doesn't see it as a stupid project.
@@TheSulross It's considered a stupid project because it didn't end up being what it was supposed to be. It's all nice and well to change the specs over time, but it's dumb to pitch a $50 machine made out of off-the-shelf parts, and end up with a $500 machine that still relies on rare old chips (and that's after they stripped away the feature creep).
Eh... I'll stick to actual retro computers rather than brand new machines that use the same old CPUs anyway.
@@Waccoon 50 Dollars was something he maybe mentioned all the way in the beginning? I never saw that amount. There's a lot of stuff being said about it that he actually had to correct, but it seems to stick. What I do agree with is that he use of old chips is a mistake, I get that he wants to keep it authentic, but I believe he added a FPGA anyway for a few things, better to then simply go all the way and make it fancy in another way.
Curious to see just how many of these retro style devices the market can handle as there are a good many which are all equally capable of doing exactly the same thing.
They will all be niche products produced in small batches based on orders. None of them will be mass produced. So in a way not really part of "the market" as we'd normally think about it.
@@andrewdunbar828 True, which is why I think it's great that there are so many choices out there now, along with more coming down the pike. It reminds me of how interesting and exciting the 8-bit era was 40 years ago, only on a smaller scale where the people producing these machines have realistic expectations of their sales potential.
Yes, beautifully designed as they may be, I'll stick to a Raspberry Pi that allows me to write just about any programming language I like and has a great choice of supported peripherals.
That said, I would be very proud to be able to create a system like the F256K. It's a great accomplishment.
would like to see more about this retro-themed computer
I envy you, able to playing around with this precious. ;o)
I would love a keyboard case like this for my Agon Light. I currently have a homemade Frankenstein's monster setup.
A good overview. I like the looks of the system, but the price is a little outside of my budget for such a device. I understand why it’s expensive and am not criticizing it for that, I just can’t afford one.
Great overview of the Foenix!
Looks Fantastic and little like a 600 keyboard 🎹 layout😊
The angled vents immediately gave me an Atari XE/ST vibe. And I kinda don’t like SuperBASIC not having a prompt…or is that an option?
this computer looks very fun, and i would love to try it out.
It is very fun to play with!
Very nice alternative for Commander X16
Very cool project, but couldn't that Cyclon replicate all of the functionalities of the chips present on the PCB? The IV go up to like 150K LEs which would be plenty. Would likely make parts sourcing easier as well. I guess I'm a bit confused by the design.
They probably wanted to go with 0 custom ASICS / FPGAs, but then gave up when they realized there isn't any off the shelf 8-bit video chips like there used to be back in the MSX days. Still though, the sound design confuses me, if they have an OPL chip then they don't need a second fantasy sound chip (emulated by the second fpga)... Also... Two FPGAs should definitely not be necessary... So yeah... definitely questionable.
@@BrainSlugs83 You definitely don't speak like somebody who has a history of hardware design. There's definitely plenty of reason to use multiple FPGAs in a design. Exactly why would you contend otherwise?
It is because, it is not my philosophy to integrate everything in 1 FPGA like the Mister or Mega65 or any new retro computer. The philosophy is to try to bring the whole retro experience, the feel, the look, the interaction. There would be no point into doing that, it would be the most boring thing to do and if it was the case I would have never got involved in this because anybody can get themselves an eval board and make a Misterboard or get a Raspi. Some people find those interesting, good for them, that's not what my goal was and still to this day.
And... I totally understand people that don't get it either, in the end, either you love it or you don't! ;) Cheers
@@stefanyallaire That makes a lot of sense. And you're absolutely right, I'm more in the "make everything as tightly integrated as possible" fraction. I always have to smile when I see projects that use an ESP32 via serial to give their Arduino UNO network connectivity, thinking "you could have implemented your entire project on that ESP" 😅. I guess that also explains why there are two FPGAs. Basically, assume they serve one function each. Again very very cool project!
The case and pcb design is great. Pcb components are placed not only functional but also asceticly. The red power switch looks similar to what I've ordered from Mouser. ;)
This system is for sale already! The Commander 16 still not. The screen specs of this machine aren’t as highres as the X16 and has “only” 64 sprites. Although it has 3 layers compared to 2. But other than that it is a very nice machine! Well done Foenix!
Interesting system. I would be interested in the FNX 6809 option for it as I really like the 6809. I'm currently working on a personal project that uses a 6809 system that will in to an Altoids mint tin.
You got the toy!!!! Enjoy!
I don't get why it ships with a 6502 variant instead of a 65816 variant. The 65816 can run in 6502 mode if desired, while having the opportunity to run in the much, much better native 65816 mode. Given that you CAN use a 65816 variant, it just strikes me as odd not to include that CPU by default.
Price, probably.
You and I know that the 65816 is awesome, but Stefany has said she feels there's an (undeserved!) stigma about the 65816 that it's harder to program for, and that it might scare away some of the 6502 fans (who apparently don't know that the 6502 is in every way in improvement).
Also, even with a 65816, you still don't get 24-bit addressing in the F256 line. Making the 65816 the standard might make people think at a glance that this is a full 65816-based system. Including it as an optional replacement for the 6502 sends the message about this system's limits. (Incidentally, for a full 65816 machine, see her C256 line, although I'm not sure she's taking any orders for that line at the moment.)
They sell it with a 65816 for about $10 more, I think the rational in offering the 6502 as standard is to appeal to all the retro crowd to know that processor well.
@@frixyg2050 et al - I'd think you could just market it as having a "6502-compatible 65816", which it is. I can't remember for sure, but I think it boots in 6502 mode.
It's a shame you don't get full full 24-bit addressing on the one line though. I can imagine it might cut the cost on the mobo, but still. That's one of the big selling points of a 65816.
Oh well, I'm not really the target audience anyway. These days I prefer writing for a fantasy console with easier code work but strict display/sound/memory restrictions, like PICO-8, because it prevents scope creep and challenges me.
I just know from SNES programming that I way prefer 65816 and would never want to go back. It's still very retro imho, but the 16-bit registers make it so much less painful to do boilerplate stuff where it's not technically a challenge, it's just grunt work.
I noticed some criticism of the price. A Sinclair Spectrum cost around £149 in 1983 which equates to around £647.61 today. A Commodore 64 was around £200 which is £863.47 today. Both needed an external cassette player and a television. For the Spectrum you could get cassette players for around £25, or less, £107 today, and televisions would obviously vary depending on screen size and whether it was colour or monochrome. I couldn't find a price but ours was a rental and a few pounds a month. In those days ordinary people couldn't afford to buy. I believe that puts it into perspective although I would go for a Pi400 and some emulators to play old games. I love my A500 mini for playing old Amiga games.
Great video. Why does the WDC65C02 CPU run at 6.29Mhz? This chip is speced to run at up to 14MHz and freely overclocks.
The CPU runs @ 1/4 of the Video lock 25.175MHz which allows the system to implement a shared memory system like the C64. If the CPU was running full speed we could not do it then we would need two different buffers shared with FIFOs and it becomes lot less efficient.
who cares of price, its a nice video about a retro style machine.. watch it and enjoy... i will not get it but still enjoy the video. i would not pay 50€ for it, i prefer the old stuff... for when a new keyboard for atari st or amiga?? 😂
It looks a lot like an Oric Atmos!
It does indeed now that you mention it! Would love to get my hands on one of those but they are very difficult to find over here. :D
The Oric had the same sound commands too!
Hopefully there will be games made/ported very soon! I could see some C64 titles on that thing!
WOW love this Machine. The FNX1591 can this run a stand alone disk drive I would buy this alone for my C64?
the FNX1591 can run as a standalone for your C64. You just have to flash it your own JiffyDOS or equivalent. Many have gone that route without buying the F256K or the other computers
Yes it can work as an 1581 drive connected to a c64 I ordered one and works great on my ultimate 64 , flashed it with JiffyDos 1581 version and it's lightning fast!
Can’t imagine why anyone is hating on Jan for this. Don’t let the bastards get you down, Jan!
Ah, I'm getting used to the negativity in the comments. No worries! :D
@@JanBetacan i buy this t shirt somewhere ?
I got it from @MindFlareRetro 's online store a while ago!
Doesn't look scary: PCB, form factor. BASIC screen colors: scary as hell!! my eyes :-)) Anyway, PCB looks like a candy, I like the design.
15:23 this computer has 640x480 resolution? According to the website it’s 320x240.
Is there an emulator for it?
Yes, available from the project website linked in the description
More computer languages should have an "explode" command.
What I find impressive is someone designing modern hardware on their own. Yes, there's a 6502-ish and those are easy to understand, just like 8-bit computers are easy to understand, hardware-wise. It's a different kettle of fish as soon as you start designing your own custom chips. Yes, the principles are all there and in essence not that difficult, but to design a system from scratch? "Daunting" is the word that comes to mind.
the 8 bit guy also has a new retro style computer which you probably know about.
I kind of heard about it. The production model is still not available though. I’d definitely be interested in reviewing the X16 when the time comes (although I doubt they’d send me a review device, they have the UA-cam exposure pretty much covered I guess).
Yeah, this one looks like much smaller production scale. So much manual work included, with the 3D printed parts etc. Still immensely impressive machine. I don't like the design or colors, but that's personal taste. Also all these full fledged machines are quite expensive once imported to Germany. Be it the Foenix256, Commander X16 or Mega65. All will cost you upward of 500€, which makes sense as they are all low volume and not super highly integrated as they could be, but that's part of the hobby: to have machines made of discrete components so you can tinker with them. I guess the Agon is the cheapest in the bunch but also the most barebone. Probably caters to a different audience.
I like the drive its seems to me very flexible with other systems if you can change the kernel any time...
Oh! That is perfectly styled to appeal to me! :D Diagonal slots like the _best_ 80s designs (XD) and the key colors are fun too. Oh there's a matching disk drive! Now I have to get one! hehehe
512K flash storage! My old Ataris supported 180K _disks!_ lol I'm not complaining. :) I didn't have a disk drive back in the day, but I recently learned just how small 180KB is when using an emulator. I think I could get used to 512KB internal storage. :D
can these systems of there's play dos games like doom?
now you can navigate using your favorite BBS station and play the moder games such Pac Man,space invaders,and dev commercial software with the powerfull BASIC Language...wow....
Might not be for you then. 🙃
an someone tell me what the use case would be for this?
Tinkering with a brand new boot to basic machine. Writing software for it. Some people would say “for fun”.
Does it run River Raid yet ?
Not that I'm aware of. There are a couple of games in development but no River Raid so far. :)
Ok. Its a Commodore Amiga, right?
👍🏻
Would love one but $600 is too steep for a toy like this, i understand why it is that price but even if i hadnt not long lost my job, its about 3x as much as id pay. Shame it looks great.
No HDMI?
It has digital DVI out which can be used as an HDMI signal (no sound though) with a simple adapter. I found it difficult to have my HDMI monitor cooperate with the Foenix screen modes though, VGA was just plug and play.
HDMI has licensing fees. DVI is compatible and doesn't have those fees and as Jan stated is also compatible with VGA. I use DVI to HDMI or VGA cables at home and they work fine.
@@JanBeta Passive adapter I'm guessing? Wouldn't add any lag?
@@andrewdunbar828 It's just a different plug, the signals are the same, completely passive. You may run into issues with HDMI devices not supporting the output resolutions from the Foenix though.
Can anyone name a reason for the floppy disk drive? Is it to copy your old C64 disks? Or to make new games and put them on a disk that will work on your C64? But if you already have a C64 with a disk drive, you can plug that disk drive into the Foenix. So it seems like a disk drive that you'd only need for your C64, if you don't have a disk drive for your C64, and it still serves no purpose for the Foenix.
What are we going to do with all of those new micros? The MEGA65, Commander X-16, ZX Spectrum Next, Agon Light... Probably others in the works.
I'm not as interested in the Commander due to the design choices, the others are great and happy this is all happening right now!
Yeah, I know. I've been working on a modernized Tandy Color Computer system myself.
@@VincentGroenewoldI agree, the X16 is a prime example of too many cooks spoiling the broth. It really is the complete antithesis of what the 8 bit guy first envisioned. The C65 is interesting, but at the same time, it is hugely expensive, but has the same problems as most "new retro machines... there's no existing software libraries, no books detailing every facet of the hardware and OS, and no huge communities like for real '80s machines.
Back in the 1970s and 1980s we had quite a variety as well. Some will do better than others in time. This appears to be an excellent contender.
Put them out the attic and then into garbage can when the corrosion gets to them?
Nice somehow, but seems to be a bit too complicated for a former C64 USER.. not programmer.
Programm here, kernal there - I'm not sure, if I could even get it running :-(
The basic setup is just plug & play. Software is mostly still in development so it's a bit tricky to get it to run. I'm going to talk about that in the next video.
keyboard, ukeyboard, eukeyboard, ukipkeyboard!
Not sure about the UKIP colours 😂
Ha! I didn’t realize that. Hope it’s not intentional (I guess not). 😅
Let's face it, yhe Foenix has more chance of winning a general election than UKIP ever had! The Foenix is a damn sight more useful than all the UKIP members put together, because whilst it might be slow... at least it will actually get something done. 😂
@@another3997 gotta say though, it's a cute looking machine. Kinda interested.
No backspace key? oh I see it, it's not where it belongs.
crazy price. and looks strange - too many parts
There’s the Foenix Jr version that is the bare circuit board without keyboard/case but same functionality otherwise. Way less expensive and more customizable. ;)
@@JanBeta new device model, for which, due to the lack of software, almost nothing can be done for price that enough for buy 1-2 very old rare devices?
You do you. I am pretty excited about these new retro systems although I of course get your point.
Nice until I saw these listed for $600 minimum bones. No thanks. Rather put money into a GPU and do modern day AI work.
The Foenix junior is much less expensive and offers nearly the same functionality. It’s the version without the case and keyboard.
another fpga devboard, will die soon because nobody need it, as v6z80p many years before
An informative video. Thanks Jan! But it is sponsored advertising, which should also be marked with a permanent insertion in the video. Unfortunately, this permanent notice is missing. I don't find that cool at all. In addition, I find the price for the computer and the accessories to be comically exaggerated.
The sponsor for the video is PCBWay, I didn't receive any money from Foenix Retro Systems nor any directions on how to make the video. Stephany just provided the review unit(s) which I happen to like a lot. I clearly stated that both in the video itself and in the video description. The video is also clearly marked as sponsored through the UA-cam functionality.
Software only available by Discord? Well that's me out, Discord is a garbage platform.
I won't use Discord after watching russian trolls completely bypass all the security there. Garbage platform.
Even if it were the case, refusing to buy a product you're interested in, just because you don't like Discord as a platform, is rather silly. I don't like the layout of my local Tesco Supermarket... but they usually sell what I want at reasonable prices, so I shop there. I don't like Facebook per se, but I joined several groups on there because that's where the people and knowledge I wanted access to gather together. Nose, Spite and Face?
@@another3997 I would agree, but in your analogy the second I walked into Tesco for the very first time I was instantly banned for zero reason.
It is not a choice, the very first time I created an account to join Discord on first log in I didn't even get to finish loading the landing screen. I was able to get in with an "oops our bad" only to be banned again 2 weeks later without a reason or explanation. Their systems are broken, their support is broken, it is a garbage platform and I refuse to even try to get back onto it.
If people choose to put their projects solely into Discord they will find that there is a significant portion of the public who cannot access them. These are not people who have broken the terms of service, these are people who Discord's broken systems are alienating. That is the price these projects pay for putting all their eggs in a flawed basket, a significantly reduced user base.
So no, I am not cutting off my nose to spite my face, I am protecting my sanity from Discord's garbage platform.
I wonder who will buy this as the price for basic setup is almost 600$ which is really high and there are no games for it.🤔
I did. In this day and age, having access to games is no longer a problem. Games of any type: modern, retro, any system. This machine is for hacking away and wrapping your mind around its architecture and learning to program for these old cpus and sound chips in an environment that's both limited compared to modern standards, yet very freeing compared to the 80's.
This Nintendo controller rubbish is something I already disliked on 8bit-guys computer. The best joypad is the first gen PlayStation pad. You can buy plenty for cheap and with a cheap adaptor you can use them @ your pc or retropie. All you need is USB. Yes, it is newer and so is DVI. But hey we should be happy with all these enthusiasts.
I think you'll find what you have there is called "an opinion". It is not necessarily one that is shared by everyone else. As the saying goes, you can't please all of the people, all of the time. I'm more concerned that the Foenix is too expensive for many retro hobbyists, especially as it is incompatible with any "real" retro computer that we may have had back in the day.
1st gen PS1 controllers didn't have analog sticks
It looks like a great machine but it's far too expensive at $595.
It's "home made" and not a lot can be made likely, not everything is made in China and can be so cheap.
It's a boutique product and consider the Apple I sold for $666.66 in 1977 dollars which is $3,345.70 in 2023 dollars, and it was considerably less capable. The Apple ][ was quite a bit more expensive still.
The F256 Jr is far cheaper with practically the same functionality so that'd make sense for someone with many components laying around, but bring your own lots-of-things: Sid chips, keyboard, power supply - may as well cut the hunt, import fees and get a really nicely put together, guaranteed to work F256K instead!
@@VincentGroenewold Sorry I didn't realise it was $595 Canadian dollars. It converts to £355 UK sterling. That is a very reasonable price for a well designed niche computer. It certainly will give the Commander X16 a run for its money. I've got to admit it is one hell of a good looking machine. Looking forward to seeing what it can do in the hands of a skilled programmer.
@@Peter_S_ The apple 1 was the first of its kind and cheaper than the alternatives
Ein weiterer sinnloser Emulator. Ein bisschen was vom Commander vom 8bit Guy hat die Maschine aber ansonsten ist es der gefühlt 159. Neu- oder Nachbau von irgendwelchen nicht kompatiblen 8-Bit Geräten die eigentlich nur der Erbauer irgendwie gebrauchen kann. Alles was man damit machen könnte ginge mit einem Raspberry Pi ja auch. Sorry, ich musste das mal sagen, aber optisch ist das Gerät sehr gut gelungen und heißt nicht schon wieder C64 oder Amiga-New irgendwas 😉
Ofcourse, the other way to see these things is... them not existing at all, no revivals, no new takes on old stuff. I think it's great we even have these.
@@VincentGroenewold Yes, sorry, if you don't know all this yet, it's new and fascinating for you. I forgot to mention that I experienced the 8 bit technology from the C64 and KC85 on myself. My first homemade computer was with a U8830 CPU.
@@harihegen Me too, I still have my original C16 and Amiga, I just meant to say I like this a lot as well as the form factor makes it not, just a Raspberry Pi. It isn't, it 's a mix.
@@VincentGroenewold Yes, that's right, the keyboard in particular is really well done here
@@harihegenYou're not the only one who experienced the heyday of 8 bit computing. I got my first computer in November 1981. And yes, in many ways I agree with your sentiments, but I also like the idea of an instant on, boot in to BASIC, easily understandable, all in one computer... but not at that price. The Agon II Light is far more affordable, even if it's not inside a fancy keyboard.
Shirt👎🏼👎🏼
You definitely need more rainbow power in your sad life. 😘🌈
@@JanBeta Be a real men.
I don't get the point on this things. They are no retro, they are new hardware cheaply buit, with no software or the expectative of even having any, and an inflated price tag... Electronic trash sooner rather than later.
What is an appeal of such toys? Both Basic and 6502 asm are not suitable to make anything useful...
6502 cores are still shipping hundreds of millions of units every year. Your microwave oven might have one.
This is a machine suitable to doing the same learning that I used to start a career as a hardware design engineer and programmer.
Perhaps an encyclopedia looks like a toy if you only look at the pictures?
Annoying video doesnt mention price (well not in first 10 mins) so I went to link. $595. DREAM ON!!!! Not interested in slightest. Its not gonna get traction at that price so expect precious little software for it. Keyboard keys wobble and its custom so no chance to fix or replace with better. How much was Jan paid for this glorified advert!??
I didn’t get paid anything to make the video, the F256K and FNX1591 were provided for free though.
@@JanBeta That would be your payment then, wouldn't it?
I agree with methmethanoid856. Absolute waste of time, energy, money and effort.
@@meh3247 hum, to be fair with Jan, if he didn't like the thing, nothing would have stopped him to tell bad things, even a free computer.
but why not make this video?
no matter what kind of retro device you will make, it will ALWAYS be expensive because of the low volume of these systems. it is simply NOT possible to make an open system cheap. however, it could be a discussion point what kind of improvements could be done to make it more attractive and maybe cheaper or maybe to split investments into multiple batches.
a bit more constructive criticism would be appreciated.
here for example some REAL points that could help:
* making the keyboard external by adding a raspberry pi pico inside. it could handle a ps/2 keyboard, usb or bluetooth and has wifi for online communication/gaming/cartridge updates. that costs about 5€. much cheaper than making a c64 style keyboard.
* making a new case that is similar AND compatible to a classic atari 2600 case.
with two added holes in the front for joysticks. and extra holes on the back for all the other stuff. AND compatible to old 2600 (junior) motherboards.
this could be made as a separate kickstarter project to get investors for making a mold for mass production. there are many atari 2600 juniors around that look like shit and would benefit from that classic case look. i could imagine that there are many people out there who could invest 1000$ for making an injection mold and get paid back up to 2000$ if enough cases have been sold with profit.
* empty game cartridges: a kickstarter project could invest into making batches of 1000 or 5000 pieces of empty cartridges for game makers. a microcontroller with decryption software connected to a cheap nor-flash. game-makers could buy batches of 10, 100, 500 etc. with a bit of a markup but giving game makers a cheap way to distribute games.
again, if a cartridge standard should be established, the question could be, if there could be a compatibility of the cartridge case with a c64 cartridge, or an atari 2600 or 7800 cartridge.
it would make sense to invest in molds that could have a higher volume and multiple purpose.
Negativity is always such a great thing isn't it, I wish we didn't have all these new revivals and enthusiasm around 8 bit computers..... oh wait....
Hope that's not a pride shirt
The only people who get bent about pride shirts are ones who question their own orientation. Everybody else is fine or supportive.
It is indeed a pride shirt. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you go somewhere else.
@@Peter_S_ Literally every Muslim "gets bent" as you call it. Do you suggest that all Muslims question their orientation?
@@jameswellburne You're wrong. There are gay muslims and gay christians and there are also straight muslims and straight christians who have no problem with and fully accept their gay and bi brethren.
@@Peter_S_ There are also women with two heads. They are the exception, not the rule. This is why no company dares to display the broken rainbow (without pink) in their Saudi Arabian subsidiary.
BBC Basic, C64 keyboard and sound commands ripped from the Oric-1 :) This is a Frankenstein 8-bit - love it!
What a lovely machine. I hope it sells well.
Crossing my fingers.
At $600+ it definitely will be a bestseller. It's just that I don't understand why the same $40 256KB RAM upgrade (sold separately) costs $45 when you add it to the F256K computer (where you choose the extra options).
@@AndreiNeacsu it's the tip !
@@AndreiNeacsu I think it comes in a cartridge case, while the cheaper one doesn´t (since it is in the ATX case anyway)
It's already EOL today. I think if the machine ran on a single RP2350 instead of an FPGA, it would cost 200 bucks perhaps, and be more powerful at the same time.
Another SuperBASIC? Looks interesting.
The BASIC on the QL was called SuperBASIC and included many of the powerful features found in BBC BASIC with a few of its own allowing new commands to be created by the user. Unfortunately due to hardware limitations and the ROM being optimised for compactness and not speed, it didn't run that quickly. It was still a very nice language.
I'll be interested to see how the new SuperBASIC compares with regards to features and specifications.
I really like this project, it looks cute, and fun to use.
Shout out for the Star Trek reference on the wall (blue "days without accidents" poster)!!
I think you're the first person to spot the Star Trek reference right away! :D
It's a little odd that the joystick ports don't support mice. Quadrature mice like the ones used on the Amiga and ST are purely digital devices, supporting them only requires a couple of hardware counters hooked up to the L/R/U/D lines on the joystick port.
I also got one recently and I'm loving it as a tinkerer first with some limited 6502 assembly experience under my belt, thanks to the Ben Eater series of videos on the 6502 breadboard computer. This seems like a logical step (leap!) from that point.
Ben Eater is goood!!
It does seem like a very logical, and luxury step from a breadboard 6502. Hopefully a decent assembler/linker will be developed or is already available. As long as you have peek, poke, and call, a decent starter assembler can always be written in BASIC.
@@Peter_S_ I'm already set up with Visual Studio 2019, compiling and linking using 64tass, producing a .bin file that can be sent anywhere using the USB debug cable. the emulator has recently been improved to include a workable debugger with breakpoints
@@anybitfeverdreams Excellent! Being able to use something like Visual Studio to code on something like this is an amazing luxury! At Atari they used a VAX for a lot of the writing in a similar vein. As somebody who goes back to 1978 on 6502, this looks like a fun and well done system.
Looks a great little machine. Always love small wedge form factors (must be due to having a Plus/4 oh so many years ago) and this one has good looks without being garish but definitely being it’s own style.Stephanie and her software collaborators have made an interesting little retro box - can’t wait to find out more, so I hope Jan provides 😊
Great video, Jan, giving an overview of this little beastie - many thanks!
The DVI looks like it's a way to use HDMI without the licensing..... (waiting for you to point that out....)
Yup, I guess so. Plus, it also provides the analog output for VGA.
DVI is a perfectly valid technology to use on a computer, it is separate to HDMI... so what's the problem?
As an old C64, C128 and Amiga lover and owner, I was really confused at least until the middle of the video what the F256K actually IS given all the similarities that it has with the Commodore 8bitters. An Emulator? Something standalone? ...then in the middle of the video I felt like I have to investigate, since Jan prolly wouldn't tell, as carried away as he got. And then I didn't bother continuing to watch at THAT price. Agreed, the hardware is very well built. But it's nuts if you've got your old machines readily available and working, like me....
So, next time: An Introduction PLEASE! @Janbeta
Sorry if it wasn't clear from the video what the Foenix actually is. I thought "new retro computer" would pretty much give it away but obviously "retro" can mean lots of things these days. ;)
Thanks for showcasing this system as I had no idea about it at all. But just based on the specs alone it comes across so far to me like a more powerful PC Engine/Turbo Grafx 16. You get the rich FM sound and versatility of the OPL3, 16 million colors, multi-layered graphics, tile and bitmap mode with large sprites plus native hardware scrolling, and ample system/video memory to play with. I kinda winced at the price but it's definitely not unreasonable and understandable given it's grassroots production. I am interested to see any game examples if they are out there as I think this is a great system so far. 😃
Here is one:
ua-cam.com/video/w_rBnjGTUyI/v-deo.html
The charm of the PC Engine being the restricted colour palette (512 colours) and the wavetable sound chip with full stereo panning, FM sucks unless it is from a Korg DS-8 or DX7 with good delay/reverb....
That case is gorgeous! Would love to have something compact like that for my Omega MSX.
Apart from the in-line assembly, what made BBC Basic more useful than most was the FUNC() and PROC() commands which allowed using Functions (with return value) and Procedure (with no return value). Very powerful.
Unfortunately it's not possible for BBC BASIC to be legally ported over to any 6502-based machines at the moment. Seems like nobody is 100% sure who owns the rights to it, because they've changed hands so many times and the original paperwork is missing (or at least that's what I've read around various forums and groups).
@@OzRetrocomp I've got a copy of BASIC V (the Archimedes version) on a raspberry pi somewhere.
Func() and Proc() were from COMAL (another structured basic dialect with PASCAL elements), Bbc Basic had DefFn() and DefProc() and was based on Comal in turn. "American" Basic dialects like Quick Basic, True Basic, Ansi Basics ecc. were more in the FORTRAN style and used SUB rather then PROC
@@giuseppe74921 Didn't know that. Will look up COMAL at some point for a crack.
I was of course, comparing to the BASICs of the time/place e.g. UK home computers, specifically Sinclairs, Commodores and Tandy/Dragon - none of which had definable procedures/functions (just gosub, which, let's be honest, is terrible).
@@simmo1024 The Comal interpreter had several versions, there was a version for almost every computer from the c64 to the PC (i tried the Amiga version it is quite good). The problem was that it was not in the rom of 8bits computers (c64 ecc. so u had to have the cartdrige inserted if u had one, like Simons Basic, if u made a program, people using your program had to have the cartridge too, so it was not very useful). Also Comal made it too far from basic and too much toward Pascal (for example variabile assignements were done like in pascal/c with := so in some way it felt more like a new kind of interpreted language and not very much like Basic, i think it had some success only in its motherland, Sweden i think, as a teaching language in schools), bbc basic took lots of things from Comal but stil felt 100% like basic, it was very powerful and was in the rom of the computer, in Italy the Bbc master 128 was rebranded as Olivetti Prodest 128s, since Olivetti acquired Acorn in that period, and it was much advertised on TV, but it was not a great success since the C=64 had a massive base of users i think, and it was already Amiga time if I well remember, but i remember some "List" type-in computer magazines had some Archimedes and Olivetti Prodest 128s lbasic listings, and I thought wow, how elegant is this basic! In the magazines they often said it was the best basic and it was also very fast
(Sorry for my bad english and long post)
Thanks, Jan. As always excellent and joib well done. I think I know where this year's entertainment budget is going.
Pretty cool system. I would not mind having one, but my house is overflowing with Retro Systems in need of space to setup.
Same here. :)
oh, great, now I can't decide if I should get the Foenix or the Mega65... My poor wallet 😞
Nice system, but I don't get why there are so many chips inside that could be easily implemented by that Cyclone IV FPGA.
I guess the idea is to have original dedicated chips (like the CPU and the OPL3 chip) and only use the FPGA as a replacement for what would have been custom chips in a vintage system.
After reading your comment I did a top level reverse engineering and I see things very differently as a hardware designer. 27 chips with 8 or more pins; most of the chips are for special purpose memories (devices: 5), specialized I/O (devices: 14) or level shifting (devices: 5) to/from the FPGAs. The remainder are 2 FPGSs and the CPU. Most of those are special purpose where you're not going to just place the function in an FPGA. FPGAs make lousy real time clock chips for example. You want a Cyclone to act like a Wolfson CODEC or Max232? Nope. It's also beyond pointless to use an FPGA for FLASH storage here. Cyclone IV is a family of devices with members ranging from cheap to almost $1000 per chip. Look up the EP4CGX150DF31I7. Here it obviously made sense to implement part of the design in the Efinix FPGA or it would have simply gone into the Cyclone used. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Honestly I don't see any other chip besides the CPU itself which could be placed in the FPGA if you want to buffer the signals. If you want to split hairs then the keyboard interface 6522 could have been emulated at the cost of the I/O pads on an FPGA. The I/O cost likely makes it cheaper externally with a 6522 and you get 6522 drive/robustness which the delicate Cyclone lacks. Please cite specifics if you disagree.
not replace every chip (surely not RAM) but the Cyclone IV would be powerful enough to implement CPU, video and audio of the F256K system. Consider the MiST device (Cyclone IV based, dating several years ago): it does emulate a whole Commodore Amiga with 68000, and its custom chips.
@@Peter_S_But the point is still valid. Once you start using FPGAs, the use of separate chips for various tasks becomes more difficult to justify. Why not just use ONE suitable FPGA for CPU, sound and graphics etc, rather than several chips? The cost and complexity is massively reduced, resulting in a cheaper product, easier to produce and easier to maintain.
@@another3997 LOL, no it's not valid. How many FPGA based products have you designed? I'm going to guess zero. Tell me if that's incorrect. I already pointed out cost vs FPGA size. I also pointed out it's not economical to emulate big memories. I also pointed out that 14 of the chips are special purpose including analog and involve I/O the FPGA simply cannot do. 5 more are level shifters which are always necessary, and the rest are memories, CPU, and FPGA. FPGAs have their place, and here you can see what that place is if you wish to learn.
If you squint into red and black it looks very Oric Atmos
This machine seems wayyyy better thought out and designed than the Commander X16 project. Love seeing the custom integrated keyboard wedge case design rather than dumb unimaginative modern PC form factor stuff.
The current X16 form factor is just the first stage design, the final stage will suit any form factor.
@@Ffinity + the x16 was made for a different set of requirements. Besides, these are 8 bit machines, to me at least, aesthetics are not important.
I agree the X16 is so far away from how it was originally envisaged. This on the other hand is flexible, familiar and attractive looking.
@@prk55 No it isn't, it was always going to be a 3 stage evolution.
The Foenix has both. The JR comes in a mini itx form factor.
I am indifferent to the Foenix system for a few reasons, but Its certainly worth a in depth review.
This machine is really fascinating to me. I hope you do more videos on this computer. I want to get one of the higher end ones they have, but I just don't have that kind of money right now.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K is a new retro 8-bit computer with a classic form factor reminiscent of systems from the 80s and early 90s.*
01:23 ⌨️ *The keyboard design of the Phoenix F256K is similar to the Commodore 64 keyboard, featuring modern switches and custom keycaps.*
03:02 🏗️ *The computer comes in a high-quality resin-printed case and has an expansion slot for RAM upgrades and cartridges.*
04:23 🕹️ *It has standard Atari-style joystick ports compatible with common Atari joysticks and supports three separate fire buttons.*
05:45 🔄 *The Phoenix F256K offers various connectivity options, including USB, Wi-Fi, a headphone jack, and RCA audio output.*
08:53 💽 *It supports a 3.5-inch floppy disk drive compatible with the Commodore 1581, providing additional storage options.*
12:51 🧠 *The computer features a W65C02S processor, expandable RAM, and integrated graphics and sound chips.*
18:21 🖥️ *The Phoenix F256K boots instantly into Super BASIC and supports modern features like syntax highlighting and indentation.*
23:49 🎮 *The system can display 64 sprites simultaneously, has smooth scrolling, and includes an inline assembler for programming.*
26:47 💰 *The Phoenix F256K is available for purchase at $595 and is made to order due to its low volume production.*
27:12 📦 *The computer features a 3D printed resin case and can be ordered from the website, with the order period extended to mid-July.*
27:54 🖥️ *There's an emulator available for the Phoenix Junior, a similar system, which allows you to experiment with the system's capabilities on your modern computer.*
28:20 🌟 *The Phoenix F256K is part of a growing trend of new retro systems inspired by the computers of the 80s and 90s.*
retrotechlab.com
I love this idea, however at that price, I would need more incentive to buy it, than just the prospect of easily writing BASIC programs. I've said it before: A system lives or dies on the strength of its software library. If people were to start writing some incredible games that I wanted to play, that would be likely to entice me to want one.
The problem is the software, is anyone going to write for it. Personally I would have based it on an existing 6502 platform with software, and made it compatible. A BBC+++ comes to mind.
Nice new 8 bit retro computer, $600 is a lot of money for just the basic model, but I understand it's expensive and takes a lot of work to get something like this into production. My concern is mostly that the community will shrink very fast and 12 months from now almost everyone lost interest. Just like the big retro releases like Spectrum Next and the MEGA65. Whereas with something like the original C64, there will always be a community.
Keep in mind, this one with the wedge/keyboard case is the "fancy" one, the "basic model" is only $200.
@@frixyg2050 I don't really have a problem with the cost, I think the one you refer to is the board only version with no case and no keyboard. I was more comparing to the maxed out version that goes for $1,349 in their shop. My concern is how much time will you spend with this before it ends up on a shelf never to be powered on again compared to an original C64/C128/Amiga etc. It really depends on the size of the community.
Cheers,
Jake
$600 CAD. Idk if that makes much of a difference, though.
i dont think the spectrum next community has shrunk there will be about 5000 new user going to that community ion just a few months and they are also producing a lot of games for that machine. Is probably the most successful retro computer remake.
This looks like what the Commander X16 should have been, entry level $200 for a motherboard only version you can slap into a mini-itx case. F256K is kind of pricey at almost $600 though but it looks incredibly well put together. Main thing is these are available to purchase and have lots of upgrades and tinkering you can do because all the glue logic is FPGA based.
yes it's real hard where, but, but for the price, you would get a lot of hardware, to run a emulator/simulator of your classic 70's, 80's,, 90's machine on, it on going to be a real machine, but at least going to be almost 100% compatible, to the really thing, and changing you mind, going with different model is just software download away? and some of the emulator even run as the system OS, and and with a bit extra work could just boot from USB memory/drive think, and could even be just plugged any machine that will just power up, monitor and keyboard, (and mouse if your chosen emulator needs one)?
Fails in the same as the X16, the price. But is a really nice system, no doubt.
At least the X16 has a community, tons of software will be (and are already) written for it and. The price will fall the 2nd/3rd gen. I don't see nohing coming for projects like Foenix or Picocomputer 6502. Still very impressive work, though.
@@rafaelmmartinez9170 Isn't the X18 FPGA-free? I don't want fat, entitled FPGAs in my 8-bit computers.