Thank you - Good discussion on the topic. Everything is relational - chroma, value, temperature, edges, etc. requiring a lot of decisions with adjustments when needed. That's hard work using crazy amounts of mental energy.
You made my day. This video sounds like a poet to my ears. Actually, the way of bostonschoolpainting sounds like a poet: find the rhym (light and dark) and keep them dancing (relationally :)). At least that is what i have understood till now. This video enhanced my understanding that everything in a well composed picture is not only a part of the whole but relational as well. Maybe it is this relationship which brings the beauty. I need to watch it again many times to absorb everything of course. Appreciate a lot, please keep doing what you do as long as you can.
You are not over my head (I'm 66 years young now), but yes, I will say that most people will not understand this unless they've struggled with it for years. Hopefully your talk will fast track this a bit. I would like to say that this is intuitive for me, but it has taken years and I still go through the "work" of comparing and adjusting. I don't use a number system or anything like that, and you probably do not think like that when painting. It is all contextual and and is a constant dance with an overall awareness of the use of formal strategies of embedded patterns and the decorative deployment of natural and abstract forms. The Degas you were showing is of course not something that he copied, but was a formal strategy of arranging shapes to move the eye throughout the plane. Without that, the tone is meaningless. My favorite work is that of the Tonalists, so this is critical, especially in low toned works where the values are closer to each other throughout. Thus the overall patterns must still be maintained, but the closer relationship of tones is much harder to judge for the inexperienced. I think my working on low toned landscape subjects taught me more than anything else in the area of value. Of course most American Impressionists were actually Tonalists. That is why the American Impresssionists works (so-called), had a much stronger structure than European Impressionism. The younger generation of which were trained in Europe soon looked to people like Inness and Whistler, rather than people like Monet/Manet. Although Monet's late works are very tonal and poetic. Many beginners today want to be an "Impressionist" and they think this is bright broken color dashed onto the surface, without the poetry or patterns maintaining the whole. If everything screams, nothing is heard-there is no point.
Very interesting, David.. I am 70 years old and have always painted. I loved the Tonalists for years. I have never liked the Impressionists. Well daubed. Check out The French School of Naturalism, The Hague School, The Newland School, The Glasgow Boys, The Russian 18c… All terrific painters and all left out of Janson’s Bible of art history. After a period of tonalism, you will want more depth and feeling and expertise. Inness was fantastic to a point. He could not paint farm animals nor people. Look up Isaac Levitan. Luigi Loir, Jan Mankes, so many more unknown and quiet and not screaming as you correctly said. It’s a pleasure to hear and read knowledge. Thank you all!
Really appreciate the whole approach of this. The brass-tacks of learning how to use the tools and how to discriminate to the highest level of accuracy.
My mind is blown. I have wanted to paint see my 20’s. Dabbled some when children were young and a little through the years. I have read, watched videos over the years. Now in my 60’s I’m trying to start again. This has truly been has been an eye opener for me. This lifts a lot of the stress off. Looking at the canvas remembering it is flat. I just need to get the relationships correct. Focusing on my values allows me to not stress over the saturation or lack there of. Helping to actually arrive closer to the actual hue. Having read and watched without painting gave me a hunger to understand basics I would otherwise struggled with had I been able to jump right in. I appreciate the knowledge you’ve shared!
This was not confusing. Beginning with finding the lightest light and darkest dark serves as an “anchor” to measure and compare all the other values. With this first determination clear, one is ready to ask two other questions simultaneously. 1.) What is the middle value? 2.)Are the darks or lights joined together in some way forming a interesting shape or pattern? Then rank the darks and lights, comparing their relative value to the darkest dark or lightest light until you have become aware of the range and ranking of value in given areas.
Going through a fine art museum today, and this has been immensely helpful to watch beforehand to help open me up to how to properly dissect the works I’m studying. Very informative, thanks!
Thank you. The most important aspect of color is value. It has befuddled many artist that a cadmium red light is a middle value color. The warmth of red brings it forward in the minds eye. An intense /saturated blue also comes forward although it is cool. A color hierarchy of value, intensity and hue makes so much sense. It also brilliant your comment that it's easier to see the world as a two dimensional surface.
I am trying to pick up art very late in life and enjoyed your talk on sight size. I am getting my drawing fundamentals down. I am resisting the urge to buy any paint yet. I want to learn to accurately ! Stay safe, cheers from Toronto.
Thank you, very informative. Funny thing is what drew me to your video is your lighting and skin tones. I see clear color changes in your skin tones from (L) blueish peach to (R)redish peach. The darker reds right before it turns to a shadow. Then your fingers the whites (highlights) so clearly hit on top sides before the peach colors. Remarkable lighting. Thank you Obviously I am studying/ capturing skin tones currently.
Thank you...I think you helped us to see the values in relation. In portraiture it is really important to the highlights in the different protrusions of a face. I like to number them from the brightest bright...usually on the nose to lesser light values. I am in a Zoom portraiture group and our instructor from Peru explains this really well too. Thank you for your video.
Great video, i started doing paintings using printed photos to match colors, but by doing that i realized some time later i had become dependant on printed photos, now i want to train my eye to be able to match colors straigth from eye to subject, this video helps a lot to know whats up,
You were afraid of saying things that were over our heads, but then you proceeded to get more complex and vague in your explanations, with respect Sir you sound very knowledgeable and maybe when you hear yourself say it, it makes perfect sense, now I can’t speak for anyone else but it is not translating to anything useful to me, again maybe it’s just me and I need to move on to a better fit for my limited intellect and experience, but suffice to say I’m not absorbing what you are saying.
@@PaulIngbretson Hello Paul, I also teach painting to adults. I can say what to do, but that means nothing unless I show them and they try, hence empiricism. Chardin talked about the angels coming during his absence. Art historians drive me crazy with their authority when they have never painted and have absolutely no idea about the process. True and humble art is a spiritual truth that is a gift to all. Beauty is fact which exceeds opinion. One dare not look at Leonardo and be critical. I recommend Beauty by John O’Donahue. So glad that you read responses!
Can you discuss the effect of chroma on being able to see value? I sometimes confuse high chroma for a lighter value. High Chroma drawing attention to itself, because of its visual strength, can create the effect of contrasting values, thus effecting the perceived composition.
Wonderful stuff again, do you varnish your paintings as an impressionist? Particularly your landscapes. I think Monet preferred not to as he wanted to keep the matte finish of his works. Cheers.
I have never found that the darks don't dry in, and some other colors, too, causing the original relationships of the notes to go sideways - some in color and chroma, others in value. Varnishing is the only way I know to protect a painting from that once it is in the hands of a buyer. I use a polymer varnish that tends not to darken and turn yellow. These can have the effect of forming a kind of glaze but more with the satin or matte versions. I prefer that to the Damar yellowing plus it is removable without picking up the oil beneath.
Line, values, colour...aren't shapes a pillar, too or is that included in lines. I fail because i try to draw objects such as faces rather than shapes? Sorry, not savvy on terminology. I have been trying to watercolour since 2015 and i have made some nice pictures but have yet to achieve what i see in my mind's eye. I don't know how many books i have purchased or online lessons i have attended but i have found a few pearls in the dreck.
13:08 Blurring your eyes and squinting your eyes are not equivalent in terms of the effect on value relationships. This is something I’ve heard a few times from teachers of painting, and it is not good advice. If you think about what is happening in terms of vision, you will understand why. Squinting reduces the amount of light entering the eye, blurring does not - the light reception of the eye remains the same. Squinting simplifies value relationships because of the reduction of light reception, so high contrast shapes remain more discernibly different than low contrast ones. By extension the same applies to edges because a hard edge is apparent between high contrast value shapes. Blurring one’s vision does not simplify value relationships unless it is taken to extremes of blurring but then the simplification affects ALL values shapes equally, so no advantage is gained in discerning value relationships than when not blurring. Blurring does affect edges as well but again for the same reason as its global effect on value shapes it is not a helpful method to discern relationships in terms of value or edges.
Many great painters concocted their pictures in the studio after making many studies from life. How do you pull it all together value wise when you're working in a large degree from imagination? It seems easy enough to see the values when painting directly from nature but when working on imaginary scenes I suspect the problem becomes more complicated. By the way, your use of the word "relationships" doesn't bother me a bit lol!
Valuable video Paul, thank you. I am still learning and at one point you made a comment about warm and cool temperatures helping yo push things back or being forward. I’m lost with temps. And I realize temps are also relational- warm or cool depends on what they are placed next to. Do you have a discussion of this topic?
I too didn't quite understand what he was trying to say when he mentioned temps and how they push something further away or closer. If anyone can clarify what he was saying please let me know.
@@jonyoder2356 I do know that in a landscape the warmer colors (more yellow) are in the foreground and the yellow drops out as the distance increases, so more blue/blue grey in the distance. I would really like to understand a warm next to a cool in figurative or urban paintings.
Sorry not to reply earlier. I don't think I have ever addressed warm and cool in their own video, just incorporated as I have here. Will consider doing that sometime.
An art student has no business touching color until they understand working in black and white. Anything before the mastery of that, is nothing less than damaging to their development.
When Degas heard from some viewers of his work that it looked like it was done by someone in doubt about his proportions he replied: "Madam, that was exactly the state of my mind." The search for the words on the spot is like that, not that I am looking for excuses.
Thank you - Good discussion on the topic. Everything is relational - chroma, value, temperature, edges, etc. requiring a lot of decisions with adjustments when needed. That's hard work using crazy amounts of mental energy.
You don't notice it much once you've created the effective habits. It is actually 'therapeudic' as Bob Hunter would say.
You made my day. This video sounds like a poet to my ears. Actually, the way of bostonschoolpainting sounds like a poet: find the rhym (light and dark) and keep them dancing (relationally :)). At least that is what i have understood till now. This video enhanced my understanding that everything in a well composed picture is not only a part of the whole but relational as well. Maybe it is this relationship which brings the beauty. I need to watch it again many times to absorb everything of course. Appreciate a lot, please keep doing what you do as long as you can.
You are not over my head (I'm 66 years young now), but yes, I will say that most people will not understand this unless they've struggled with it for years. Hopefully your talk will fast track this a bit. I would like to say that this is intuitive for me, but it has taken years and I still go through the "work" of comparing and adjusting. I don't use a number system or anything like that, and you probably do not think like that when painting. It is all contextual and and is a constant dance with an overall awareness of the use of formal strategies of embedded patterns and the decorative deployment of natural and abstract forms. The Degas you were showing is of course not something that he copied, but was a formal strategy of arranging shapes to move the eye throughout the plane. Without that, the tone is meaningless.
My favorite work is that of the Tonalists, so this is critical, especially in low toned works where the values are closer to each other throughout. Thus the overall patterns must still be maintained, but the closer relationship of tones is much harder to judge for the inexperienced. I think my working on low toned landscape subjects taught me more than anything else in the area of value. Of course most American Impressionists were actually Tonalists. That is why the American Impresssionists works (so-called), had a much stronger structure than European Impressionism. The younger generation of which were trained in Europe soon looked to people like Inness and Whistler, rather than people like Monet/Manet. Although Monet's late works are very tonal and poetic. Many beginners today want to be an "Impressionist" and they think this is bright broken color dashed onto the surface, without the poetry or patterns maintaining the whole. If everything screams, nothing is heard-there is no point.
Beautifully expressed and helpful information, David.
Very interesting, David.. I am 70 years old and have always painted. I loved the Tonalists for years. I have never liked the Impressionists. Well daubed. Check out The French School of Naturalism, The Hague School, The Newland School, The Glasgow Boys, The Russian 18c… All terrific painters and all left out of Janson’s Bible of art history. After a period of tonalism, you will want more depth and feeling and expertise. Inness was fantastic to a point. He could not paint farm animals nor people. Look up Isaac Levitan. Luigi Loir, Jan Mankes, so many more unknown and quiet and not screaming as you correctly said. It’s a pleasure to hear and read knowledge. Thank you all!
Really appreciate the whole approach of this. The brass-tacks of learning how to use the tools and how to discriminate to the highest level of accuracy.
several of you are looking at, responding to, this video today...are you a group?
@@PaulIngbretson
No. Thumbnail popped up and I clicked.
My mind is blown. I have wanted to paint see my 20’s. Dabbled some when children were young and a little through the years. I have read, watched videos over the years. Now in my 60’s I’m trying to start again. This has truly been has been an eye opener for me. This lifts a lot of the stress off. Looking at the canvas remembering it is flat. I just need to get the relationships correct. Focusing on my values allows me to not stress over the saturation or lack there of. Helping to actually arrive closer to the actual hue. Having read and watched without painting gave me a hunger to understand basics I would otherwise struggled with had I been able to jump right in. I appreciate the knowledge you’ve shared!
And always then, 'work it out'! :)
I’d love to see a video on managing values on the palette itself. This was very helpful of course.
Finally a video that helps me make sense of this topic. Thank you thank you very much!
A pleasure to be of help, Jaswas
This was not confusing. Beginning with finding the lightest light and darkest dark serves as an “anchor” to measure and compare all the other values. With this first determination clear, one is ready to ask two other questions simultaneously. 1.) What is the middle value? 2.)Are the darks or lights joined together in some way forming a interesting shape or pattern? Then rank the darks and lights, comparing their relative value to the darkest dark or lightest light until you have become aware of the range and ranking of value in given areas.
All good
Going through a fine art museum today, and this has been immensely helpful to watch beforehand to help open me up to how to properly dissect the works I’m studying. Very informative, thanks!
Nice, glad!
Thank you. The most important aspect of color is value. It has befuddled many artist that a cadmium red light is a middle value color. The warmth of red brings it forward in the minds eye. An intense /saturated blue also comes forward although it is cool. A color hierarchy of value, intensity and hue makes so much sense. It also brilliant your comment that it's easier to see the world as a two dimensional surface.
Welcome...good comments!
I am trying to pick up art very late in life and enjoyed your talk on sight size. I am getting my drawing fundamentals down. I am resisting the urge to buy any paint yet. I want to learn to accurately !
Stay safe, cheers from Toronto.
Thank you, very informative.
Funny thing is what drew me to your video is your lighting and skin tones.
I see clear color changes in your skin tones from (L) blueish peach to (R)redish peach. The darker reds right before it turns to a shadow. Then your fingers the whites (highlights) so clearly hit on top sides before the peach colors.
Remarkable lighting.
Thank you
Obviously I am studying/ capturing skin tones currently.
I am a beginner, values are challenging. Thank you for your discussion, you were helpful!
Also look at No. 248 Marie. Much the same discussion
Best discussion of values on the net.
Many thanks, Dan. And see #238 as well. Was just reminded of that one. Probably some overlap if not a bunch of overlap.
Thank you...I think you helped us to see the values in relation. In portraiture it is really important to the highlights in the different protrusions of a face. I like to number them from the brightest bright...usually on the nose to lesser light values. I am in a Zoom portraiture group and our instructor from Peru explains this really well too. Thank you for your video.
So welcome, Nikki!
Thank you, lots of aha moments while watching this.
I struggle identifying/mixing grays.
Very interesting speech! I like it very much
Great video, i started doing paintings using printed photos to match colors, but by doing that i realized some time later i had become dependant on printed photos, now i want to train my eye to be able to match colors straigth from eye to subject, this video helps a lot to know whats up,
Glad it was helpful!
This was a great and very helpful discussion thank you so much
Good video on one of the foundational topics in painting. Packed with great information
Much appreciated, Todd!
VALUES, are a PIGMENT OF MY IMAGINATION.!!;-)
Wouldn't want to encourage too much punning although I have never forgotten my friend Hilary referring to the Likeness Monster.
Thank you. I’m learning and this video was helpful.
You are so welcome!
Thank you Mr Chomsky
Welcome
You were afraid of saying things that were over our heads, but then you proceeded to get more complex and vague in your explanations, with respect Sir you sound very knowledgeable and maybe when you hear yourself say it, it makes perfect sense, now I can’t speak for anyone else but it is not translating to anything useful to me, again maybe it’s just me and I need to move on to a better fit for my limited intellect and experience, but suffice to say I’m not absorbing what you are saying.
D// Please quote a passage any time and see if I can do better. Explain what you're taking in.
A treasure!
You learn values from constant work for years and the magic comes. Talking about it is means nothing. Empirical knowledge is truth.
True, Cindy, but it helps to name things.
@@PaulIngbretson Hello Paul, I also teach painting to adults. I can say what to do, but that means nothing unless I show them and they try, hence empiricism.
Chardin talked about the angels coming during his absence. Art historians drive me crazy with their authority when they have never painted and have absolutely no idea about the process. True and humble art is a spiritual truth that is a gift to all. Beauty is fact which exceeds opinion. One dare not look at Leonardo and be critical.
I recommend Beauty by John O’Donahue.
So glad that you read responses!
Thanks👍
Very interesting talk thanks for sharing
Welcome
Really helpful!
Excellent discussion
Can you discuss the effect of chroma on being able to see value? I sometimes confuse high chroma for a lighter value. High Chroma drawing attention to itself, because of its visual strength, can create the effect of contrasting values, thus effecting the perceived composition.
Let me know if you didn't see my address of this or want to dig deeper, Judith
Wonderful stuff again, do you varnish your paintings as an impressionist? Particularly your landscapes. I think Monet preferred not to as he wanted to keep the matte finish of his works. Cheers.
I have never found that the darks don't dry in, and some other colors, too, causing the original relationships of the notes to go sideways - some in color and chroma, others in value. Varnishing is the only way I know to protect a painting from that once it is in the hands of a buyer. I use a polymer varnish that tends not to darken and turn yellow. These can have the effect of forming a kind of glaze but more with the satin or matte versions. I prefer that to the Damar yellowing plus it is removable without picking up the oil beneath.
@@PaulIngbretson I agree wholeheartedly. Someone cleaning at some time in the future will be able to lift that polymer off without affecting the oil.
Well done!!
thank you
Line, values, colour...aren't shapes a pillar, too or is that included in lines. I fail because i try to draw objects such as faces rather than shapes? Sorry, not savvy on terminology. I have been trying to watercolour since 2015 and i have made some nice pictures but have yet to achieve what i see in my mind's eye. I don't know how many books i have purchased or online lessons i have attended but i have found a few pearls in the dreck.
Yes, shapes, forms, light, too, but not included in the original three historically designated.
13:08 Blurring your eyes and squinting your eyes are not equivalent in terms of the effect on value relationships. This is something I’ve heard a few times from teachers of painting, and it is not good advice. If you think about what is happening in terms of vision, you will understand why. Squinting reduces the amount of light entering the eye, blurring does not - the light reception of the eye remains the same.
Squinting simplifies value relationships because of the reduction of light reception, so high contrast shapes remain more discernibly different than low contrast ones. By extension the same applies to edges because a hard edge is apparent between high contrast value shapes.
Blurring one’s vision does not simplify value relationships unless it is taken to extremes of blurring but then the simplification affects ALL values shapes equally, so no advantage is gained in discerning value relationships than when not blurring. Blurring does affect edges as well but again for the same reason as its global effect on value shapes it is not a helpful method to discern relationships in terms of value or edges.
This may be a good one for another, clarifying, video. Thx
Many great painters concocted their pictures in the studio after making many studies from life. How do you pull it all together value wise when you're working in a large degree from imagination? It seems easy enough to see the values when painting directly from nature but when working on imaginary scenes I suspect the problem becomes more complicated. By the way, your use of the word "relationships" doesn't bother me a bit lol!
Let me make a couple points on this in a video Syl.
@@PaulIngbretson That would be great, thanks!
This is tough to understand . The comparative relationships is helpful.
Also review No. 248
Valuable video Paul, thank you. I am still learning and at one point you made a comment about warm and cool temperatures helping yo push things back or being forward. I’m lost with temps. And I realize temps are also relational- warm or cool depends on what they are placed next to. Do you have a discussion of this topic?
I too didn't quite understand what he was trying to say when he mentioned temps and how they push something further away or closer. If anyone can clarify what he was saying please let me know.
@@jonyoder2356 I do know that in a landscape the warmer colors (more yellow) are in the foreground and the yellow drops out as the distance increases, so more blue/blue grey in the distance.
I would really like to understand a warm next to a cool in figurative or urban paintings.
Sorry not to reply earlier. I don't think I have ever addressed warm and cool in their own video, just incorporated as I have here. Will consider doing that sometime.
Thank you
Most welcome
Can someone tell who this Gammal? I looked online, a bunch of Gammals came up. Thank you!
Glad you found it....Gammell
An art student has no business touching color until they understand working in black and white. Anything before the mastery of that, is nothing less than damaging to their development.
It's been said!
@@PaulIngbretson Yes but a teacher should be more deliberate in letting them step up to color.
Listening to this guy trying to put together a coherent sentence is like pulling teeth. Not sure what's going on here...
When Degas heard from some viewers of his work that it looked like it was done by someone in doubt about his proportions he replied: "Madam, that was exactly the state of my mind." The search for the words on the spot is like that, not that I am looking for excuses.
Koji 0 iPad =h