Canyoning Guided Rappel - How much force does it create?
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Is it safe to have 2 people on a guided rappel? How much force does it create? Brent Roth ( / whitewaterpirate ) and Joe Cruikshank demonstrate a guided rappel and I read off the force from the LineScale 2. We now have the LineScale 3 and it records the data internally and is water proof. Check that out at www.hownot2.store/linescale
At the top anchor, the peak force was 4.8kn when they were both on it and when repeated, the bottom anchor saw a peak force of 5.07kn. For reference, an 8mm static rope we just tested broke at 14kn in a figure 8.
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This episode right here is quintessentially what this channel is striving to be for me. We see gear used in different systems, try to quantify forces that are involved, demonstrate a few ways to do niche activities for odd scenarios, in a half educational half entertainment way. I am kinda jealous of the next generation of outdoor enthusiasts having access to this resource.
Discovered this channel about a week ago and I'm loving it. Such a relaxed approach to all the content delivered with humour whilst simultaneously demonstrating the importance of proper methods and safety practices.
I really hope this channel takes off in a big way, its soo different to the egotistical selfcentric content that seams to have amassed on UA-cam on the topics you discuss. At no point through all the videos I've watched so far have you given off the typical "I know everything and my way is best because I'm the greatest ever" feel😂
Even the way the videos are edited with all the laughs thrown in and the "ok I'm walking into frame moments" are brilliant! Really great stuff, entertaining and informative, nothing feels scripted or forced and when you try to script a scene and it doesn't quite go perfect you roll with it anyway haha makes the whole video so much easier and fun to watch. For the first time I'm actually inclined to support a channel financially as to lose future content like this would be a dam shame, really great stuff keep up the great work!
Fascinating how the loading was pretty much identical at 5kg on either side of the repel line! Thank you for creating this episode.
I love what you are doing so much dude, you took this tiny niche channel and it is blossoming into this amazing thing with so many possibilities I just cant wait to see where you are taking it.
This canyoning series is great.
Thanks
My brand new Linescale 3 arrived yesterday. It's awesome! Thank you for spreading the word, Ryan!
have a blast with it. it does a lot!
Are they on there way? Awesome. Can’t wait for mine
This is similar to a technique used sometimes in caving called a Tyrolean. It is very much a last resort type of technique, as far as I understand, in rigging as it puts so much tension on anchors. Though in the caving world they're often tensioned much more pre use (not sure how it was done in this case so could be wrong) via some type of hauling system and then locked off.
The way I like to ascend them is somewhat similar, using a combination of a top ascender and chest jammer (analogous to his micro and basic) with the addition of a pantin/another ascender on my foot to help keep it efficient.
Tyroleans underground are used generally for the same purpose of avoiding a waterfall or rift where an alternative method can't be used such as a rebelay or deviation (a way of rerouting the rope).
Those kinds of forces are super scary in a place where, potentially, rescue is days away!!
!!!!!!THIS was a great video!!!! Really good walk-through the techniques and the stress on the system.
Love this canyoning series
Small safety detail (that some will consider too small to be a problem): The figure 8 block really should have a carabiner connecting the small hole on the figure 8 to the non rappel rope. Without that carabiner it is an “open system” meaning the rope could technically pop off the figure 8 and drop the person rappelling. This is at most risk when the block is being transferred to a lower or belay. In testing I have seen this happen on stiffer ropes although the rappel rope was not under a lot of tension, I always use the carabiner to close the system and then when I need to lower I open the carabiner to convert to a lower and immediately clip it back in when the lower is set up. They are technically fine in this video because they are going off that clove hitch on a carabiner they created to test the force.
Progress adjust to hitch climber pulley with and arborist VT on “skate line”. You’ll be able to clip in comfortably and cinch up to pulley. Use a foot ascender, it will be more efficient and leaves hands free to work VT hitch (add hand ascender if needed for grip on line) Slacking skate line will lower the line angle lowering peak forces a bit. Rotate around to and use hand/foot ascender to come back the slight uphill on return. There’s some swift water techniques very similar to check out too. Cheers! Love the channel 🤙🏽
5kn it is something to have in mind... so much tension with that rescue technique... and normally the lower anchor point for a guided rappel is not strongest as you want, normally would be just 1 parabolt with luck...
Last week I make a guided rappel to a big Tree, maybe if the floor is wet or something with 5kn it can be out of the floor and bye byeeeee....
Thanks for sharing all that info!
A lot of the same equipment, the ascenders, ropes, pulleys etc are used in by arborists. They also have many techniques and products for anchoring to trees.
So are we seeing a combine force of up to ~10kn on the guide rope?
Some high forces but all within the the limits of the gear used .. super good enough
Yup!
Wow, there was a week of no upload.
I was wondering why a video hadn't shown up.
Can you test weather friction hitches like a trucker hitch will slipp before the rope breaks
I would love to see you do some head to head canyon rope test, that is not just pull test but wear test and flexibility test as they wear out. I would also like to see wet rope weight as some rope take up more water than others. I do canyons that require me to take in 3 ropes, 80m, 60m and 40m so wet rope weight is important to me. Are the expensive ropes that much better and last that much longer than the budget friendly options. PS love your vids and the different content options.
Any idea on the height of the drop and distance from the top anchor? Kinda surprised by the higher forces being on the ground anchor. I rig these fairly regularly on a 130ft waterfall, with closer (I think) to equal rise and run. I imagine ground anchor forces drop as the line gets steeper… if you ever need a tropical spot with tons of setup options for these and easy access let me know. Would be cool to see how the forces change with bigger drops and longer distances
9:12 any idea what that beautiful blue belayer is called?
Don't get me wrong. I love the system of Ryan shouting out numbers as the video rolls, but with the Line Scale 3, would it be possible to overlay graphs of force data on the video in realtime using something like DashWare?
Yes, i can't wait to overlay graphs in real time. Actually working on it next week on a big project
Considering the massive amounts of Di-hydrogenated monoxide in those parts I do not blame Ryan for not bringing his brand new custom engraved Linescale 3.
Brent, could you have used your footloop to help get up to and/or stabilize yourself while connecting to the microtrax?
Thought so myself. But he would just have pulled the microtrax further up
Pretty interesting. Thats more than i expected tbh.
Stretching a rope horizontally and loading it in the middle can generate some crazy forces. That's why slacklining is a tricky business.
Basically the same as diagonal tension lines in rope access, right?
Pretty much. we will be doing more tests like this to compare things
@@HowNOT2 A small safety point from the industrial side @ 8.30 ish. I know that in this scenario it wasn't being used as a primary point of attachment but a Basic ascender (or any of the Petzl range that use the same cam mechanism) is specifically not meant to be used in that orientation. It's in the technical notice guidance for them (diagram 6B) if anyone wants to read further into it but basically if you fall on it, or even load it significantly it will pop the cam open and fail. You really should put the carabiner you are attaching to it with over the rope as well as the ascender.
Hello, I'm curious as to how this guide line has been tensioned and prepared for release. I can see how the tension in the line is held via the locking hitch in the figure eight descender at the lower anchor, but that isn't a releasable component (depending on how tight the line actually is). I wonder if anyone knows what might be happening at this lower anchor outside of the camera view - something like a z-rig anchored to a radium release hitch or MMO? I know the upper anchor point has a releasable figure eight block, but I imagine this has been set up with a releasable component down by where the tensioning of the line took place at the lower anchor. Thanks
I use the F8 with the Italian hitch as progress capture because it is releasable. When there is as much tension as we saw, the F8 can be difficult to rotate, but not impossible. We practice this technique often with a single person on the guiding line. Caution must be taken when releasing the Italian 8! Adding friction to the non-tension side of the F8 will mitigate the risk of an uncontrolled release.
Another option is to use a Munter as the progress capture and secure it with an MMO. It is difficult to achieve high tension in with this method, but that not always a bad thing. 😉
After seeing this, i think whats happening is like the american death triangle, that would explain such high forces on the anchors because the angle is way past 120°. Anyway this was a really cool video, eager to see more of this soon!
Yes, it’s the same thing. A rope can only transmit a force along its length. A completely horizontal rope can’t transmit *any* vertical force. It has to stretch and sag.
A high line seems to be the same thing
@@trollmcclure1884 Slack lines and high lines generate huge forces. Especially when you consider that they are only loaded with body weight.
On minute 11 of the video, I noticed that they're using the figure 8, rapel device. My question is, is the figure 8, rated to e exposed to tension on those contacts points?
Great question! That's why we tested it! Check out the video 👉🏼👉🏼 ua-cam.com/video/l8VvEWdDMus/v-deo.html
Saludos
Don’t get me wrong, i love to see the numbers. But this configuration is made so that you don’t have to accent the guide line. You can just stay at the bottom. Lower somebody with the guideline. And when he is going to hit te water you can block the guideline and tighten the rappelline with an micro-traxion creating an washline-effect. U could use this technique for climbing up the rope in case of an emergency and haul your victim up.
Just for clarification, in the guided rappel the peak forces on the rope could reasonably reach up to ~10kn total, since the forces are occurring on both ends at the same time, right??? Fun stuff, glad you enjoyed the trip. Really looks fun. Did you take two cars and park at both the top and bottom, or hike? What kind of canyons are routed? Is this a newer idea or been around? Thank you, monumental work you have been doing for the sports and for search and rescue industries.
No, the forces don't add. That's not how tension works. If gravity weren't a factor, the forces on each end and the tension at each point along the rope would all be equal.
There are so many things I would love to do. If I only had infinite time to do them.
diddo!
Same. Same
I'd like to know what his standard Canyoneering rack is made up of?
I use a standard herness setup taught in the V7 course.
The first course is free! Check it out here 👉🏼👉🏼learn.v7academy.com/link/ic335M
Answering to :what the viewer whats to see. Can you do videos with more advanced maneuvers.
Stuff like, multi point traverse, multi anchor rappels, releaseble sistem with only the rappel rope, extension of rope, ascending with minimal gear and several gear, ringing ascending... with cordellet only. Show several ways of rigging a guided rappel, how to finish a rappel with a short rope, how to rappel a tense rope.
Thanks for the video I always wanted to know the forces on a loaded guided rappel with and without.
ooft that's well outside what we'd consider the safety factor for single rope rescue. Releasable abseil line at the top so you don't put two people on that tensioned line. I mean, yeah in-extremis you could do something like that rescue technique in the vid but it would be a very bad day at the office.
That rope will probably break at 12 kn maybe 15 kn with the knots in it. So the safety ratio is still likely double the breaking strength. Are you looking for a one to four ratio?
@@buckmanriver if its 6mm technora its around 23kN, then it gets wet and has knots in it so right away we halve it - call it 12kN. Using SF=10 that's a 1.2kN line. It was seeing over 3kN during the rescue. That's outside our safety factor.
What about a rescue when in the stream of water…two guys in the water would be the highest force would it not?
would love to see how strong is the italian block use for tensioning (8:38), I also use the following setup (wich seem to be less stressfull for the rope, but add more friction) ua-cam.com/video/_-rUXYk8C0o/v-deo.html With a guided not too much force is generated, but with a real zipline I wonder if those setup are safe for the rope?
And, as predicted, zero footage of the go pro Haha!
Isn't this whole setup a Death Triangle?
I don't really do this class canyon, but isn't that above the limit of a normal static line? Edit: Nevermind, just learned a quick lesson than a kilonewton is not equal to 1000 lb force.
Yeah a carabiner is usually rated at 22kn and above. Static ropes are about the same.
I didn’t know 2 chains was that strong, thought he was just a rapper😏
gorgeous canyon, wet rescue content And Ryan shouting kilonewtonts, honestly it does not get much sexier than this!
Test ice gear
10:04 man used your left armpit
This video is unfucked.
Have to say this was very over complicated and excessive man. So many better ways to approach this (either in a section skip / rescue) with the gear shown in the video which would have achieved lower forces and safer techniques.
Are you happy to explain more? Truly interested