Understanding Railroads: Embargoes - Discontinuances - Abandonments
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- Опубліковано 24 гру 2024
- A five-minute primer on just what makes a railroad track abandoned. The term is often misused. Quickly listen and learn about the different classifications that inactive railroad tracks are put in. And see how to search the STB website for filings and decisions, opening up a new rabbit hole to get lost in. And please Subscribe to know when more "five minute" primers on understanding railroads are posted.
KillerBee, please keep making your informative and interesting videos. I know there are others just like myself who really get such a better understanding of the somewhat hidden aspects of Railroad operations and operating practices. You are doing a good thing for many folks who will listen and watch your videos and Learn about the Railroad. Then there’s no boundaries on where they may take what you taught them and go on to actually become an important person in the big picture of modern day railroading, Certainly there’s not many who have your inside knowledge of various topics. Thank you KillerBee,
I am humbled. Thank you. I actually have a cycle of three videos I rotate making. One is the "Understanding Railroads". One is the "Inactive Lines." And one is posting the digitized movies of the late Clint Jones. Eventually I come around full cycle. All I need is time. My goal is Entertain and Educate. Thanks again.
Excellent info
Always wonder when I see old trackage
Good - I hope this helps to demystify things. I plan more little tutorial clips.
Thank you for the STB link! Looks like an interesting site to do railroad research. I know sometimes the State gov't. will purchase the track and right-of-way and "railbank" it for possible future rail use. Sometimes traffic returns to the line and sometimes it never returns with the state eventually finding another use (usually rail trail) for the property.
Ya, you can get lost for hours reading the STB filings and decisions. I plan to do another little short video on "Rails to Trails" - another often misunderstood subject.
Cool info..
These tracks have always been kind of fascinating to me. There is one in Thornton, IL near the quarry that I’ve seen CSX store well cars on…it intersects 294
I wish they would use that line more often. Would like to see Margaret St gates in action!
Great Job!! Keep them coming!!
Just posted another one on Rails to Trails
To what extent, mon cheri, do communities/companies have a say in whether a RR abandons a length of track. I right-well understand that they are private entities...BUT, are they also considered Public Ultilities, like they are here in France ?
You are correct most here are private entities with stock holders to appease. People try to treat them like public utilities but they are not. Communities/companies have no say on a track abandonment if it has been idle for over two years - the railroads can file and the abandonment permission takes effect in 60 days. If there is still traffic on the line, then the public can weigh in and their comments are taken into consideration. And thanks for subscribing !!
Yes these are very informative. Keep it going Brian
thanks - on a roll
I came up with the term Rail-Trail to mean a bicycle path that precisely preserves the well maintained alignment of a freight railroad. It likely needs some rebuilding to achieve that. Before the term Rail-Trail rails-to-trails frequency just made use of the real estate of a railroad corridor with no relevance for the railroad alignment. The Rails-to-Trails Conservancy took my term Rail-Trail and pushed it out all over the world. They liked the term, but have not used it as I intended. I designed the term to be greatly self explanatory to guard against that which has greatly accomplished.
Rail banking a railroad corridor maintains its federal eminent domain keeping it out of the eminent domain of the local state. The state delegates eminent domain down to the local level government. Federal eminent domain is very important to ensure control and continuity of the railroad corridor and trail where there are public road crossings. There are people trying to get control of the rail corridor real estate that are powerful and without federal eminent domain realistically it can become impossible to defend against the loss of the railroad real estate. Railroad corridors are almost all ownership in fee with very little use of railroad easements.
There are many easements over railroad corridors such as public road crossing. A "railroad" listed just as such in many states means a federal eminent domain real estate corridor for use by an interstate commerce freight railroad. If it is called an "electric railroad" that is not the same thing and is unlikely to be in a federal eminent area. Such electric railroads as interurbans were much less concerned with real estate ownership and were frequently on use-easements where when the use stopped so did the easement. They were subject to state eminent domain that is delegated down to the local level so they could have their land taken by the local government through its eminent domain if it they did own it fee. Many people get "railroad" confused with the real estate situation occurring with electric railroads. Many interurbans had very established fee ownership real estate corridors.
There are common easements railroads use that most people wouldn't think as easements such as over large rivers. There can be easements over installed installations before the railroad came into existence. The Georgetown Branch Railroad in Dalecarlia MD is on an easement over the Great Falls Conduit that goes to the Dalecarlia water works. The whole length of the easement is a concrete structure with nothing appearing, but ground around it. The railroad really nailed down the area it was having to only have easement rights on.
Railroad easements greatly complicate railroad land management and are historically avoided. The local area is considered to possibly have no benefit from the railroad and that is why the land is in federal imminent domain for interstate commerce. People have incorrect ideas about railroad land and frequency believe it somehow owes them something.
If losing ownership of the corridor where road crossing take place the trail can be treated any way the road agencies desires and typically as perpendicular driveways with the road, both less safe for cyclists and losses the infinity vista view that pulls the eye forward. Its best for the trail to keep the public road crossing as guests on an easement. Parks departments use bicycle facilities to get other things they want and will find other people that have better uses for the railroad corridor real estate than cyclists. If you are going to devote yourself to a serious Rail-Trail it should be one in a rail banked corridor to keep its real estate largely safe from other very powerful interests.
Very interesting, thank you. Am glad to have more information available for all to see. I realized in trying to keep the video to five minutes that additional relevant information would have to be skipped. (Same as in the Embargo-Discontinuance-Abandonment video). I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
There are so Manny abandoned and out of service lines around here in West Virginia and alot has become rail trails and the sugar creek spur was out of servos Manny years then put back in servos after new coal mine open up at the end of the line
Like upper Michigan, areas of once intense mining have lots of abandoned rail lines.
So what happens if a track that hasn't been used for say 30 years and is overgrown suddenly gets an order for train service? How do they go about opening it up for rail service again?
Well first that is the whole point of a Discontinuance - so that will not happen. So if a railroad has inactive track sitting around and does not put it in Discontinuance status and gets a request for service they now cannot provide - or can only accomplish at great expense - shame on them. They would have to rehab the track to make it passable.
@@killerbee6310 It was my understanding that unless they ripped up the track, one never knows if a train will start using it again. With that in mind, I wondered if they had special equipment that plowed through the trees and debris blocking the track of if they simply used the locomotive to smash through it all? That's why I questioned it.
@@MisterPersuasion Nothing 'suddenly' would happen. Whether it was an existing customer or new customer there would be no rates in place or no customer agreements. By dragging their feet the railroad could take weeks/months to negotiate a new agreement with the new customer. They could also surcharge it to the point the traffic would never be feasible. But let's say, or arguments sake, that it was a move that could justify the railroad putting the line back in service they would probably contract out an upgrade to one of the many companies in the US performing track maintenance. By the time rates were in place the line could be in place.
I see South Coast rail channel always doing a segment on reopening unused/ static rail . Wish Chicago area would do the same
Then once a line is abandoned, there’s the controversy of does the property revert to the original owners. This old law has prevented some right of ways to being converted to rails to trails.
I am next going to a segment on Rails -to-Trails
There are agreements in place where the railroad specifically agreed when they purchased the line that if that line ceased to be a railroad that it would return to the original owner. Often the land in question was government owned so that means the line goes back to the government. Otherwise to the family or enterprise the line was purchased from. Rails to Trails has been successful in locations in preventing this from happening, often only after lengthy legal proceedings. Many land owners do not want individuals walking and biking through their back yard.
Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. The question I have thought about recently and in the past is, if you suddenly got money from your recently deceased uncle Fred, or hit it big with Bitcoin and wanted to start a short line railroad in your rural town, how would you go about creating a short line railroad and finding out if the tracks through town that look abandoned, and haven't seen a train in years, actually are or might be for sale from a railroad that isn't using it? Any idea how that process works? Say the tracks are part of a small 15 mile branch or so.
Oh boy, not a quick answer. I retired from CN in 2021 and I spun a few lines in the U.S. off to shortlines to operate. I dealt with parties ranging from the wannabees, to the Watcos and G&Ws. My experience is the wannabees unfortunately many times do not have the financial cushion or experience needed. They don't know what they don't know. But to answer your question, you just have to ask the railroad. Asking anybody else risks getting an incorrect answer from someone guessing - or who doesn't know what abandoned track really is. So, who do you ask? Usually a railroad of any size will have a Network Strategies or Corporate Development Department. Those are the dudes you need to reach. At CN, many people reached me by e-mailing thru the general "Contact Us" box on the web site. Although my success rate using this method when trying to contact other companies (non-railroad) in my daily private life is zero %, I can assure you I always promptly responded to inquiries that came to me. Probably because they didn't come directly to me, but were relayed by the PublicAffairs person that monitored the in box. Another way to to monitor the STB Filings, watching for when a railroad files to put a line into Discontinuance or Abandonment status. Then pounce.
@@killerbee6310 Thanks. So assuming the wannabee short line had the money cushion, would they start up a special kind of transportation company with their state and the Feds to get added to the rail system for routing purposes, after they buy the tracks from the owner? Are their any states that buy abandoned rail right of ways to preserve them in a "rail bank" so to speak to sell to other entities later to keep rail service alive in their locals? Or is this all just private property trading hands like any other physical corporate asset?
@@littlewingpsc27 you file with the STB to become a railroad. Until then, no one will take you seriously. Which means you need to engage a STB regulatory attorney in Washington DC that knows how to do such things. Yes, many states will purchase right of ways. Wisconsin by law has first right of refusal to acquire lines that are abandoned and consummated. There is also a process called OFE - Offer of Financial Assistance - where you can bid to operate line being put up for Discontinuance or Abandonment - yet another rabbit hole to go down....
@@killerbee6310 Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.
@@killerbee6310 Thanks for answering his questions. I appreciate this info.
Very interesting!
Thank you - that was my hope and desire.
where can I get a map showing active and not active rail lines in all states?
Speaking for Wisconsin, the state DOT rail map shows what lines are under Discontinuance or out of service. wisconsindot.gov/documents/travel/rail/railmap.pdf
For the rest of the states, I assume the various state DOT rail maps will be your best bet. I do not know of a single source that has all the states.
More great info!
Nice!
Some states have laws that state if the track is in place the railroad maintains ownership of the right of way
Railroads in the US are under Federal law so the laws the state has may or may not be taken into account if there is a dispute.
New sub. here ....
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. A lot more to come.
P.S.- I just subscribed.
Embargos can be abused as well. A carrier doesnt want to be bothered with interchange from another carrier or a shipper/receiever so, they throw an embargo on the line. 🛤️
Not to mention how, although they are not to be a means to permanently control traffic, they sometimes become just that.
Sometimes I wonder if that is why Watco on the FOXY Spencer to Medford Line embargoed the line. It has been about 2 years since they did just that. There has been an occasional work truck on the line, but in Spencer one stick of rail was removed and just lays there next to the line making it impassible. Personally, I think they don't want to do anything with the line seeing it was an "island line, "and there were still customers, so they put an embargo on it. Yeah, the line does need some work seeing how CN ran it to the ground and didn't do any tie replacements ever unlike Wisconsin Central did back in the late 90s, but I don't see any enthusiasm from Watco do anything with the line like they are showing up north from Park Falls to Ashland and over to White Pine, and even Rhinelander to Goodman which were all out of service for many years. They are pricing out to see what it would take to reopen these lines which is a lot of trackage miles. Check this out. northwoodrail.x10.mx/wp/wp-content/uploads/Watco-NRTC-Update-June-9-2023.pdf
@@LoriTobin-z8d
Please submit these comments to the Surface Transportation Board, Finance Docket 36744. The CN is attempting to purchase the Iowa Northern Railway. I see dreadful things happening. 🦹🏴☠️🚂
@@LoriTobin-z8dI’m sure the Medford Sub was part of the huge take-it-all or none purchase by FOXY. After the box factory moved to Marshfield, I’m sure that doomed the line.