Not only color, but I like the aero shape of the frame - wide downtube, wide forks, nice transition from downtube to top tube, black seat tube (I'm ignoring a bit this iso hole), black top of downtube, smooth lines... It is something special I think. To me at least :) But we have different taste...
Really interesting video Dave, and it’s very useful to show the difference between bikes and your TCR - congrats. What I’d be really interested to see is a comparison between your Enve wheels, and some shallow profile ones. I’ve got bikes with both, and whilst the deep section wheels feel, and sound fast, it’d be really valuable to see what the actual differences are in the tunnel, especially as deep section wheels can be tricky to handle in windy conditions - making me question just how beneficial they are. Thanks
Impressive to see a wind tunnel test included in the review against your ride impressions. Feel counts for a lot though, and bombing down the hill on that must be amazing. That black and white paint job (with invisible Trek logo?) looks suitably stunning too! Love your channel!!!
i did expect the difference between the madone and TCR to be a bit more; but then when i thought about the details, the wind tunnel results seem more reasonable. if the rider is about 80% of the resistance (and David was sat quite upright on the hoods for these tests so more of a rider contribution to the total than if on the drops or in the aero hoods position) then out of 300 watts, the bike itself (not counting the impact on position from a narrower bar) can only influence the 20% left - 60 watts out of 300. Same wheels - so that reduces the 60 watts the bike can influence by a significant amount......maybe only 30-40 watts left that can be influenced directly by the frame. i can easily see that differences between a full aero frame and a frame that has some beneficial aero features would be 25% or less of the watts left for the frame to influence - so about 10, and even low enough to get lost in the test variability.
Exactly, and if you add also the sizes of bikes into this equation (M/L... or 56/58... sizes are not completely aligned between manufacturers), it is quickly obvious that comparing "bikes" (without wheels? handlebars?...) or just frames is almost impossible task... I guess at the end, all tested bikes will fall into this +-5/10 W range... What was more interesting to me was the wider tires test which showed less drag - is this logical/true? What about the wheels with wider tires, were those deeper?
Great review Dave I have noticed the improvement in your reviews now doing wind tunnel testing 👍🏾that’s very radical, but much more informative. Keep up the good work 👏🏾. I like the Madone but the price is OMG how much!😮
@@MicroageHDNot really. If two identical strong athletes compete, one with top end modern bike and other with '80s bike, the one with new bike will definitely win the race
I picked up my Madone SLR9 Gen 7 a few days ago. Here are some real world numbers from my own experience: Old bike (Time Skylon with Shimano DuraAce Di2 11sp) 30.7 mile loop, 18.8 MPH average speed at 182 W weighted avg. power 1:38:22 ----- New Madone (Shimano DuraAce Di2 12sp) 30.7 mile loop, 19.3 MPH average speed at 176 W weighted avg. power 1:35:24. It actually FEELS much faster as well, crazy the amount of difference it makes. Granted, the Time is about 6 years old, but still, a HUGE difference.
I have a 32mile loop and I found my Madone Gen 6 to be about 3 min faster in total compared to my Colnago C64. Thats even though the loop is hilly and the C64 climbs better...and this is the Madone Gen 6, the Gen 7 is supposed to be faster than the Gen 6.
Not to disagree with you. is it faster then gen 6 yes. Is it faster then older madones? No. My experience with the new gen 7 from a friend loaning his for these tests, my fastest bike I own is a 98 trek 5200 weighs 1.7 lbs lighter then the gen 7 I have ultegra 6700 groupset and fsa slk carbon crank on the 5200. the 5200 accelerates out of the gate faster and hold it's speed better then the gen 7 Also tested out my 2012 ssl madone around the same loop that I also much lighter at 15 lbs even with Scram red double tap groupset rim brake and the results were the same the 2012 accelerates faster and maintains speed better then the gen 7 As I have said time and time again 2012 was the last of the great trek racing bikes. 2013 to present trek has nothing but fallen on there faces. Trek has focus putting tech into thre bikes and to me is in the wrong direction. Trek needs to get back to basics with there bikes and lose some weight off there frames
Directly comparing a racing aero bike to a "just a good bike" in a wind tunnel turned out to be a great idea. I think I'm not the only one who was very surprised at how small the difference is for an amateur cyclist. Now, when choosing my next bike, I will think less about the advertised aero-optimization and more about what I really need. Thank you!
Tx David for These recent videos. Wind tunnel testings are amazing. Combined with weight info and price, makes choosing the bicycle to buy much easier. Curious to see performance of Canyon Aero CF SLX and specialized Tramac SL7 in wind tunnel.
Another brilliant review, David! I love that your wind test protocol includes real world speeds that are relevant to average cyclists ❤ I hope other jounralists are watching your videos and scrambling to up their game - you're kicking butt!
It’s great you are adding the wind tunnel. You’re subjective description of the ride was about how fast it felt, but the wind tunnel didn’t show too much difference from your Giant. That kind of real data is really valuable in a review because some bikes just feel faster, whether or not they actually are.
This whole series in the wind tunnel is fascinating. I can’t be the only one that would gladly give up 6 watts to build a lighter, easier to work on and live with, TCR versus the aero bikes
Great video David! not one to leave comments, but I feel this video deserves it. Isolating the frame in the wind tunnel and running tests at 30 and 40 kph makes it relevant to consumers rather than pros. It also helps cut through marketing bs! I hope you do the same with wheels and also start providing a top 10 table of the most aero bikes and wheels (watt savings). This information is so relevant for the people actually buying these expensive products
an addition: independent testing of marketing claims in the car industry is almost a standard. As yet we lack this for bikes, so this work is appreciated. An extension of this and hopefully an inspiration for a future video would also be both the reliability, part availability as well as the level of customer service of different bike brands. When you are paying a high price, you are buying into a brand so it is also important to know if that brand is "a complete package" rather than just a bike, can they also deliver when consumers experience problems (or are you forgotten after they have got your money)? From personal experience the answer is not always yes, with some top-end brands making you wonder why you have paid the premium for a bike with a spec you could have bought for a lot less from a competitor.
@@russellorr6400 Tour is a subscription german magazine that tests bikes and wheels on their aerodynamics, comfort, etc. I haven’t bought it myself since you can find some bits of the testing results in the weightweenies forums if you dig hard enough, but i would like to
V. interesting video David. Glad to see you are using Zefal Pulse L2 bottlecage (nice looking, super-light but a little bottle-rattling cage on paved roads). Can't wait the TREK vs Giant comparison.
Looking forward to the Propel comparison, a SL7 comparison would be great as well but it seems like manufacturers only make media bikes available when they release a new bike, so probably aren't lending out SL7s
Been waiting for this review, I love the madone and no doubt its a great race bike but difference to a TCR or similar bike ( I am looking at Supersix evo ) is much much smaller than I thought. Although if you race regularly and have experience you can feel 5 to 10W difference as clearly you can David. I think I'll go for the Supersix evo, still relatively qquick but has rave reviews about handling and comfort for crappy roads and all day rides.
What a great review! I originally had my heart set on this bike in the ultegra model, but I've come to realise that I actually like a less aggressive and more comfy bike than this FULL AERO RACE bike. In the end I went with a Cervelo R5 which is lighter and very noticeably more compliant than my 2021 Trek Emonda SL7. I've come to realise that a max speed aero machine isn't actually the kind of bike I like the most for my kind of riding. I just want something that can climb hills easier and descend confidently, and whether I'm going 55kph at a max sprint vs 60kph on a more aero machine doesnt really mean that much to me anymore. Not even looking to get deep wheels for the R5 any more either
Thanks great review I brought a new madone last year about 8 months in like others had problems with Isospeed like many riders. There warranty was great and replaced the whole frame but I lost my ideal color. I did order the new one due in dec. I have not seen many reviews , doesn’t look like they have out so many demo bikes to press. Wish someone would test wind tunnel vs old one. U said it’s not as comfortable. We will see
Thanks for the wind tunnel test against the TCR. I have a TCR and it seems that an aero bike would be faster if I were riding solo but not really in the group, and I only happen to care how fast I’m going when with others.
Hi Dave, really awesome video. Just a question though. I notice that aero road bikes are now considering the unaerodynamic shape of water bottles in their frame design (I believe this was also considered when developing the TCR). Would you be able to conduct future wind tunnel tests with bottles included? I wonder if the TCR might have actually been faster than the Madone with bottles included as the Madone doesn't appear to account for bottles whereas the TCR does. Just thought.
David your reviews are great. Balanced, to the point and very insightful. I’m keen to see your ride review of the new Propel as I’m seriously considering getting one, how far away is it. Thanks
Thanks David, for the wind tunnel comparisons. I think most bike riders know that the big companies are just trying to get everyone to believe that they are "faster, stiffer, lighter" just to sell us something that is simply only a micro- or nano-step better, ie 2 watts faster. These are basically meaningless to the 99 percentile of riders who just love riding, and are not time trialing. Thanks for helping keep the companies accountable, and for your honest reviews! (I feel prices will be dropping soon as the industry is now heading into "correction" mode. Staring to see plenty of sale prices not seen since before pandemic)
there may be a few sale prices, but MSRP has only continued to rise. for example, i bought an ibis hakka in february for 3600 USD. i checked the price again in march out of curiosity and the same bike was now 4700 USD. nothing changed, all components are the same, but the price is now 33% higher. i dont see bikes getting cheaper anytime soon.
I also think a lot of bike riders are absolute suckers for new bike bling like this... I agree with you, but there is clearly enough market for these things (and not necessarily from amateur competition riders)... They surely look great and must be fun to ride, but even if I had the money, I can't stomach having to bleed the brakes to service the headset... And for what, 1-2 watts and nice looks? Yes, a mechanic can be paid to do these, but it will come at a cost (including the bike for longer at the shop, whilst they do the quick jobs first). And so many more watts can be saved on training certain riding positions and snug fitting clothing.
@@glennoc8585 Every 6 months or so, in my case. I ride most days of the week, even in bad weather, so rust can take root if I'm not careful. I service everything on my bike except for changing BB bearings and bleeding brakes. The less I have to faff with when changing parts, the better.
It will be interesting to see how the new Propel fairs against the likes of this Madone, the New Foil & updated S5. It seems to sit a bit between the standard road race/climbing bikes and the full on Aero bikes in design do if it delivers in aero terms will be a winner.
Thanks for the in-depth testing (not that I was ever going to consider a bike at that price point). What cycling socks were you wearing when filming the outdoors riding parts? Thanks and best wishes
It's a great looking shape with the down tube and rear stays at the same angle. I wonder how those change in a smaller frame? The seat tube is a worry though; they should have stopped fettling or made a 'Pro Team' version and left us mere mortals with the ISOFIX.
Cette vidéo est très intéressante, cela va dans le sens de ce que je pense depuis le début sur les fameux tests aéro de TOUR qui réalise des essais aéro de vélos avec un demi mannequin, ce qui ne rend pas compte de la réalité, en effet les résultats aéro ne sont pas pareil quand on effectue le test en soufflerie avec un cycliste complet sur le vélo, car la masse du cycliste entier génère des perturbations aéro qui vont au delà du cadre du vélo, donc cela annule les bénéfices aéro des guidons profilés et cadres aéro. C est la position du cycliste qui fait que l'ensemble cycliste + vélo est aéro, les gains sur le cadre et le cintre sont marginaux, du même ordre que les roulements céramiques. Les gains aéro des roues sont par contre moins marginaux car les rayons se déplacent très vite dans l'air et en plus à contre sens du flux d'air, donc plus les rayons sont courts et moins de trainée il en résulte, c'est pour ça que les roues lenticulaires sont très aéro car il n'y a pas de rayons. Les nouveaux cadres aéros type Aeroad joue sur l'image qu'on a des cadres de triathlon / chrono, et laissent penser que c'est la forme aéro du cadre qui est responsable des gains de vitesse, alors que c'est uniquement la position du cycliste qui en est la cause. D'ailleurs il suffit de regarder les courses cyclistes professionnelles pour se rendre compte que les cyclistes professionnels peuvent gagner avec un cadre polyvalent et non optimisé niveau aéro, tel les Lapierre Xelius ou Canyon Ultimate. Dans les pelotons amateurs, on peut voir que le vélo a encore moins d'importance sur les résultats de courses, des coureurs gagent avec des vélos d'ancienne génération dont le cadre est non travaillé sur le plan aéro.
Loving the last few vids with the wind tunnel testing. The last comparison proved exposed cables outfront make no difference to drag. This video is super interesting. You have proved that someone spending £13k plus on the Madone only benefits by a few watts at 40kph and only once the wind yaw angle is at 10degrees. Not many people cycle at 24miph or higher. Most people average between 15 - 20mph on their rides and therefore there are no gains to be made with aero bikes. Another proven point, my boss had a 2015 rim brake emonda, in 2018 he upgraded to a Madone and he was no faster , even slower on some segments. Let’s have more of these videos please David,
Great video, what is your size on your regular bike? I’m having issue with the sizing. I have a 54 venge with a 130 stem -12 degree I’m running a 54 new madone 130 stem but still not comfortable. I wonder if we have to go up in sizing on trek bikes or same sizing. Haven’t really bad issue
As it is great to see these high end bikes, would be nice to see similar testing from the other end of the spectrum. Probably more people would be interested in some more budget friendly bike options, and seeing how they compare against your "standard" giant tcr, as reference.
Thank you, David. I'd be interested in a wind tunnel test on a more modest bike. I have an aluminum BMC Team Machine, some exposed cables and not aero optimized. What kind of aero gain would a rider like this realize with an upgrade to a modern aero bike such as the Propel or Madone? Thanks again for the excellent reviews.
Any reason why you didn't use water bottles during test? I know the TCR downtube is thicker to improve drag with a water bottle so would have been curious how it would compared with bottles which is more realistic than no bottles. Super awesome to know my TCR fares well against Madone/Ultimate even with exposed cables.
A guy in my group ride just bought one with ultegra di2, not sure the exact frame grade. Looks better in the black I think in that design. The thing is the young amateur racer that would benefit the most is priced out from these bikes. Personally I'd go the emonda for an all around bike.
Really fascinating putting side-by-side "real road" perception ("blazing fast!") with wind tunnel results (2% faster comparing to your Giant). That makes me thinking: is this whole wind-tunnel testing a big BS? Another thing - 40km/h at 300W. From my experience - sounds _almost_ right. But what are your real life results? How many Watts you have to smash to keep 40 km/h on Trek? Cheers!
Hi David, can you comment about the climbing characteristic of this bike? Is it really that bad? Or this can be considered as an all around bike knowing that its geometry is just the same as the emonda minus the weight difference
The wind tunnel test result is one thing. But like what Dave has said, on the real road you actually feel faster. This means the bike actually gives additional confidence and inspire you to go even faster. This additional benefit is not accounted for in the wind tunnel result.
Nicely done, I would add to your test a subjective test, such as most aero relax position. When you look at you body position on the giant you have little option when holding the top of the handlebar, on the trek like other bike with such handlebar, you can use the top of the handlebar and set your body in a semi tt position. The review should incorporate what the bike allows you to do in a sort of way. Again nice review!
So I’m assuming this trek is prob close to as aero as any other of the new best aero bikes so do you think it’s safe to assume the tcr would do about the same against a canyon aeroad or cervello s5 ?
great question and funny that i had the same EXACT question as i am in the process of upgrading my bike to one of the aforementioned three. Hopefully, someone can give us some additional insight!
good work... I know you ha e mentioned the cost of the wind tunnel is somewhat prohibitive.. but if you go a few more times with different bikes you may just come to the conclusion that there is maybe 20 watts difference between the most aero and the least.. and a Lot of bikes in the middle.. leaving no real need to do more aero testing
Normally when we have relatively "drastic" new designs with bikes, there is initial backlash leading to acceptance and enjoyment of the aesthetics over time. After initially really liking the look of the bike design, I'm not sure if the paint schemes aren't doing as many favors for the bike compares to previous Trek bikes (which were almost saved by very nice paint options), but I'm liking the design less over time. Something about the shape of the stem seems a little clunky compared to other bikes as well as not maintaining the clean elegant lines in the frame design, and I think proportionally the frame shape kind of lends itself to the clunky descriptor (not talking about aero or actual speed, just looks). The two tone paint scheme wasn't really utilized to its full potential in my opinion, as I think they could have made some of the more beefy parts of the frame look slimmer which would have added to the overall look.
@@davidarthur yes I have. Have you seen all the issues with all the custom designed parts the past years 🤔? Kuch kuch, Canyon, Specialized, recall Trek etc 🤔
Do the new Giant Propel vs TCR in Wind Tunnel, that will be really interesting and if you can get a hold of it, a RIM TCR, that will settle alot of discussions
Good review Dave and interesting results but the price is outrageous. You could by a nice used motorbike for that money. Or several top used bikes; road, gravel and mountain.
Change the wheels and tires and you could hit 7kg on the madone. I never change my madone set up so this new one is my next bike. I’m on my third madone. I also run 140 disc on the front. I’ve also crashed my madone and got free wheels and 40% of the frame from trek. You can’t complain about that fir service.
How long do you think before we get a sub-7kg aero road bike at an "accessible" price. I mean a bike that is built light enough to absorb the weight of Ultegra/Force (or lower) level components and still be sub 7kgs.
Great review. Wind tunnel test tells the data story. Real world test tells stiffness story - which is the DNA of the bike, if that's what you want. Very informative review 👍
The amount of money that Trek is demanding for the Madone line was obscene with the previous iteration and outright madness with this one. It's to the point where Cervelo and Pinarello are almost bargain brands in comparison.
Eye wateringly (sp) expensive, but I'm a big supporter of 'buy whatever makes you ride more'. If that takes $23 thousand AUD and you can afford it, then so be it. Still, you could get an equally aero road bike from a different vendor with zipp 454nsw for cheaper. Now THAT would make me ride more :).
❤you got my attention ❤️ for testing at low normal human speeds. This is very useful. Any chance you can borrow Scott Foil from Francis Cade to see the difference between all these bikes?!
For a company that can’t make a handlebar stem combo without having to recall them all I don’t think I would trust that frame not to fail a few thousand miles down the road. Especially when you get heavier riders using them 🤔
That color is sick. Makes the bike look so much more premium.
I think it looks cheap. Like a car from some 20 year old that spray painted his own car and added some cheap modifications.
There's definitely something attractive to this color and pairing of parts.
I never liked the look of Trek bikes, but this one... I agree, currently one of the coolest looking bikes!
It’s just plain silver…
Not only color, but I like the aero shape of the frame - wide downtube, wide forks, nice transition from downtube to top tube, black seat tube (I'm ignoring a bit this iso hole), black top of downtube, smooth lines... It is something special I think. To me at least :) But we have different taste...
please get more bikes on the wind tunnel test. great to see the comparisons :)
Patiently waiting for the new Propel vs your TCR test 😀
Really interesting video Dave, and it’s very useful to show the difference between bikes and your TCR - congrats. What I’d be really interested to see is a comparison between your Enve wheels, and some shallow profile ones. I’ve got bikes with both, and whilst the deep section wheels feel, and sound fast, it’d be really valuable to see what the actual differences are in the tunnel, especially as deep section wheels can be tricky to handle in windy conditions - making me question just how beneficial they are. Thanks
Interesting result. This tells me that my Giant TCR is more than enough and no reason to get another bike. Thanks as I am still happy with my TCR
Impressive to see a wind tunnel test included in the review against your ride impressions. Feel counts for a lot though, and bombing down the hill on that must be amazing. That black and white paint job (with invisible Trek logo?) looks suitably stunning too! Love your channel!!!
i did expect the difference between the madone and TCR to be a bit more; but then when i thought about the details, the wind tunnel results seem more reasonable. if the rider is about 80% of the resistance (and David was sat quite upright on the hoods for these tests so more of a rider contribution to the total than if on the drops or in the aero hoods position) then out of 300 watts, the bike itself (not counting the impact on position from a narrower bar) can only influence the 20% left - 60 watts out of 300. Same wheels - so that reduces the 60 watts the bike can influence by a significant amount......maybe only 30-40 watts left that can be influenced directly by the frame. i can easily see that differences between a full aero frame and a frame that has some beneficial aero features would be 25% or less of the watts left for the frame to influence - so about 10, and even low enough to get lost in the test variability.
Exactly, and if you add also the sizes of bikes into this equation (M/L... or 56/58... sizes are not completely aligned between manufacturers), it is quickly obvious that comparing "bikes" (without wheels? handlebars?...) or just frames is almost impossible task... I guess at the end, all tested bikes will fall into this +-5/10 W range...
What was more interesting to me was the wider tires test which showed less drag - is this logical/true? What about the wheels with wider tires, were those deeper?
Great review Dave I have noticed the improvement in your reviews now doing wind tunnel testing 👍🏾that’s very radical, but much more informative. Keep up the good work 👏🏾. I like the Madone but the price is OMG how much!😮
bottom line is the tcr is a great all round bike, from racing flats, hill climbs and light gravel. what a bike!
Also, probably your old 80s steel frame aint much slower in the flats than a Trek Madone SLR + weight matters.
@@MicroageHD it isent. It's the legs, son, not the bike
@@MicroageHDNot really. If two identical strong athletes compete, one with top end modern bike and other with '80s bike, the one with new bike will definitely win the race
I picked up my Madone SLR9 Gen 7 a few days ago. Here are some real world numbers from my own experience: Old bike (Time Skylon with Shimano DuraAce Di2 11sp) 30.7 mile loop, 18.8 MPH average speed at 182 W weighted avg. power 1:38:22 ----- New Madone (Shimano DuraAce Di2 12sp) 30.7 mile loop, 19.3 MPH average speed at 176 W weighted avg. power 1:35:24. It actually FEELS much faster as well, crazy the amount of difference it makes. Granted, the Time is about 6 years old, but still, a HUGE difference.
I have a 32mile loop and I found my Madone Gen 6 to be about 3 min faster in total compared to my Colnago C64. Thats even though the loop is hilly and the C64 climbs better...and this is the Madone Gen 6, the Gen 7 is supposed to be faster than the Gen 6.
Not to disagree with you. is it faster then gen 6 yes. Is it faster then older madones? No. My experience with the new gen 7 from a friend loaning his for these tests, my fastest bike I own is a 98 trek 5200 weighs 1.7 lbs lighter then the gen 7 I have ultegra 6700 groupset and fsa slk carbon crank on the 5200. the 5200 accelerates out of the gate faster and hold it's speed better then the gen 7 Also tested out my 2012 ssl madone around the same loop that I also much lighter at 15 lbs even with Scram red double tap groupset rim brake and the results were the same the 2012 accelerates faster and maintains speed better then the gen 7 As I have said time and time again 2012 was the last of the great trek racing bikes. 2013 to present trek has nothing but fallen on there faces. Trek has focus putting tech into thre bikes and to me is in the wrong direction. Trek needs to get back to basics with there bikes and lose some weight off there frames
Are you still impressed ?
Directly comparing a racing aero bike to a "just a good bike" in a wind tunnel turned out to be a great idea. I think I'm not the only one who was very surprised at how small the difference is for an amateur cyclist. Now, when choosing my next bike, I will think less about the advertised aero-optimization and more about what I really need. Thank you!
Tx David for These recent videos. Wind tunnel testings are amazing. Combined with weight info and price, makes choosing the bicycle to buy much easier. Curious to see performance of Canyon Aero CF SLX and specialized Tramac SL7 in wind tunnel.
The wind tunnel data is fantastic! I love that you compare it to the TCR so there is a point of reference.
Thanks David. Very detailed review as always....I just keep thinking how bikes are outrageously priced.
Another brilliant review, David! I love that your wind test protocol includes real world speeds that are relevant to average cyclists ❤
I hope other jounralists are watching your videos and scrambling to up their game - you're kicking butt!
Thanks James!! :)
@@davidarthur Thank you so much for the wind tunnel tests. It actually gives us an idea of how aero bikes are.
It’s great you are adding the wind tunnel. You’re subjective description of the ride was about how fast it felt, but the wind tunnel didn’t show too much difference from your Giant. That kind of real data is really valuable in a review because some bikes just feel faster, whether or not they actually are.
This whole series in the wind tunnel is fascinating. I can’t be the only one that would gladly give up 6 watts to build a lighter, easier to work on and live with, TCR versus the aero bikes
True, those tests make me more and more happy about my decision to buy the 2021 TCR - has been a great and fast bike during the 15.000 km so far!
(I say this as a Tarmac SL7 owner who recently struggled with the internal cable routing on that bike)
Thanks for the in depth review David. Bike looks great.
Thanks for the video. Would be really interesting if you swapped to aero handlebar on the tcr comparison as well.
Great review, and thank you for saying what we are all thinking - £13000 to acquire a top bike is ridiculous.
Great video David! not one to leave comments, but I feel this video deserves it. Isolating the frame in the wind tunnel and running tests at 30 and 40 kph makes it relevant to consumers rather than pros. It also helps cut through marketing bs! I hope you do the same with wheels and also start providing a top 10 table of the most aero bikes and wheels (watt savings). This information is so relevant for the people actually buying these expensive products
an addition: independent testing of marketing claims in the car industry is almost a standard. As yet we lack this for bikes, so this work is appreciated. An extension of this and hopefully an inspiration for a future video would also be both the reliability, part availability as well as the level of customer service of different bike brands. When you are paying a high price, you are buying into a brand so it is also important to know if that brand is "a complete package" rather than just a bike, can they also deliver when consumers experience problems (or are you forgotten after they have got your money)? From personal experience the answer is not always yes, with some top-end brands making you wonder why you have paid the premium for a bike with a spec you could have bought for a lot less from a competitor.
@@russellorr6400 we don't lack this in the bike industry. It's called Tour
@@Shadowboost ??? elaborate please!
@@russellorr6400 Tour is a subscription german magazine that tests bikes and wheels on their aerodynamics, comfort, etc. I haven’t bought it myself since you can find some bits of the testing results in the weightweenies forums if you dig hard enough, but i would like to
V. interesting video David. Glad to see you are using Zefal Pulse L2 bottlecage (nice looking, super-light but a little bottle-rattling cage on paved roads).
Can't wait the TREK vs Giant comparison.
Looking forward to the Propel comparison, a SL7 comparison would be great as well but it seems like manufacturers only make media bikes available when they release a new bike, so probably aren't lending out SL7s
Hi David
Great job with the video as always.
Big fan of the new Trek 👍🙂 Mega price tag for a Awesome super bike. 🚴♂️👍
Thanks! 👍
Been waiting for this review, I love the madone and no doubt its a great race bike but difference to a TCR or similar bike ( I am looking at Supersix evo ) is much much smaller than I thought. Although if you race regularly and have experience you can feel 5 to 10W difference as clearly you can David. I think I'll go for the Supersix evo, still relatively qquick but has rave reviews about handling and comfort for crappy roads and all day rides.
What a great review! I originally had my heart set on this bike in the ultegra model, but I've come to realise that I actually like a less aggressive and more comfy bike than this FULL AERO RACE bike.
In the end I went with a Cervelo R5 which is lighter and very noticeably more compliant than my 2021 Trek Emonda SL7. I've come to realise that a max speed aero machine isn't actually the kind of bike I like the most for my kind of riding. I just want something that can climb hills easier and descend confidently, and whether I'm going 55kph at a max sprint vs 60kph on a more aero machine doesnt really mean that much to me anymore. Not even looking to get deep wheels for the R5 any more either
Thanks great review I brought a new madone last year about 8 months in like others had problems with Isospeed like many riders. There warranty was great and replaced the whole frame but I lost my ideal color. I did order the new one due in dec. I have not seen many reviews , doesn’t look like they have out so many demo bikes to press. Wish someone would test wind tunnel vs old one. U said it’s not as comfortable. We will see
Super interesting aero data! Can’t wait for the review of the Propel.
Thanks for the wind tunnel test against the TCR. I have a TCR and it seems that an aero bike would be faster if I were riding solo but not really in the group, and I only happen to care how fast I’m going when with others.
Hi Dave, really awesome video. Just a question though. I notice that aero road bikes are now considering the unaerodynamic shape of water bottles in their frame design (I believe this was also considered when developing the TCR). Would you be able to conduct future wind tunnel tests with bottles included?
I wonder if the TCR might have actually been faster than the Madone with bottles included as the Madone doesn't appear to account for bottles whereas the TCR does. Just thought.
David your reviews are great. Balanced, to the point and very insightful. I’m keen to see your ride review of the new Propel as I’m seriously considering getting one, how far away is it. Thanks
Thanks David, for the wind tunnel comparisons. I think most bike riders know that the big companies are just trying to get everyone to believe that they are "faster, stiffer, lighter" just to sell us something that is simply only a micro- or nano-step better, ie 2 watts faster. These are basically meaningless to the 99 percentile of riders who just love riding, and are not time trialing. Thanks for helping keep the companies accountable, and for your honest reviews! (I feel prices will be dropping soon as the industry is now heading into "correction" mode. Staring to see plenty of sale prices not seen since before pandemic)
there may be a few sale prices, but MSRP has only continued to rise. for example, i bought an ibis hakka in february for 3600 USD. i checked the price again in march out of curiosity and the same bike was now 4700 USD. nothing changed, all components are the same, but the price is now 33% higher. i dont see bikes getting cheaper anytime soon.
Bikes are only likely to go up in price due to the increased cost of manufacturing and shipping.
I also think a lot of bike riders are absolute suckers for new bike bling like this... I agree with you, but there is clearly enough market for these things (and not necessarily from amateur competition riders)...
They surely look great and must be fun to ride, but even if I had the money, I can't stomach having to bleed the brakes to service the headset... And for what, 1-2 watts and nice looks? Yes, a mechanic can be paid to do these, but it will come at a cost (including the bike for longer at the shop, whilst they do the quick jobs first). And so many more watts can be saved on training certain riding positions and snug fitting clothing.
@@nluisa How often do we service out headsets though in reality?
@@glennoc8585 Every 6 months or so, in my case. I ride most days of the week, even in bad weather, so rust can take root if I'm not careful. I service everything on my bike except for changing BB bearings and bleeding brakes. The less I have to faff with when changing parts, the better.
The bike is as fast as the rider can push efforts on it. Geometry plays a factor but it is all up to the rider. Wow effect +10.
Great honest review 👏
Excellent looking bike, and great review, I wonder how it compares to the canyon aeroad
Great video Dave. I’d love to see you review and your thoughts on a new Factor OSTRO VAM. Keep up the great videos. Always enjoy watching your videos
It will be interesting to see how the new Propel fairs against the likes of this Madone, the New Foil & updated S5. It seems to sit a bit between the standard road race/climbing bikes and the full on Aero bikes in design do if it delivers in aero terms will be a winner.
Great video and great review. Love the comparisons. One question, which glasses and what's your opinion? New Sutros?
Great content, keep it up 👍
Appreciate it!
Dave if it was your money - would you go for the 2023 Madone or the Pinarello Dogma F ?
Thanks for the in-depth testing (not that I was ever going to consider a bike at that price point). What cycling socks were you wearing when filming the outdoors riding parts? Thanks and best wishes
It's a great looking shape with the down tube and rear stays at the same angle. I wonder how those change in a smaller frame?
The seat tube is a worry though; they should have stopped fettling or made a 'Pro Team' version and left us mere mortals with the ISOFIX.
Thanks for the review! I am curious as to what computer mount you are using on this bike and how you liked it?
Nice review and I agree the cost of this one is joust for sponsored ridders. Love the comparison gives you a good reference point.
Cette vidéo est très intéressante, cela va dans le sens de ce que je pense depuis le début sur les fameux tests aéro de TOUR qui réalise des essais aéro de vélos avec un demi mannequin, ce qui ne rend pas compte de la réalité, en effet les résultats aéro ne sont pas pareil quand on effectue le test en soufflerie avec un cycliste complet sur le vélo, car la masse du cycliste entier génère des perturbations aéro qui vont au delà du cadre du vélo, donc cela annule les bénéfices aéro des guidons profilés et cadres aéro. C est la position du cycliste qui fait que l'ensemble cycliste + vélo est aéro, les gains sur le cadre et le cintre sont marginaux, du même ordre que les roulements céramiques. Les gains aéro des roues sont par contre moins marginaux car les rayons se déplacent très vite dans l'air et en plus à contre sens du flux d'air, donc plus les rayons sont courts et moins de trainée il en résulte, c'est pour ça que les roues lenticulaires sont très aéro car il n'y a pas de rayons. Les nouveaux cadres aéros type Aeroad joue sur l'image qu'on a des cadres de triathlon / chrono, et laissent penser que c'est la forme aéro du cadre qui est responsable des gains de vitesse, alors que c'est uniquement la position du cycliste qui en est la cause. D'ailleurs il suffit de regarder les courses cyclistes professionnelles pour se rendre compte que les cyclistes professionnels peuvent gagner avec un cadre polyvalent et non optimisé niveau aéro, tel les Lapierre Xelius ou Canyon Ultimate. Dans les pelotons amateurs, on peut voir que le vélo a encore moins d'importance sur les résultats de courses, des coureurs gagent avec des vélos d'ancienne génération dont le cadre est non travaillé sur le plan aéro.
Loving the last few vids with the wind tunnel testing. The last comparison proved exposed cables outfront make no difference to drag.
This video is super interesting. You have proved that someone spending £13k plus on the Madone only benefits by a few watts at 40kph and only once the wind yaw angle is at 10degrees. Not many people cycle at 24miph or higher. Most people average between 15 - 20mph on their rides and therefore there are no gains to be made with aero bikes.
Another proven point, my boss had a 2015 rim brake emonda, in 2018 he upgraded to a Madone and he was no faster , even slower on some segments.
Let’s have more of these videos please David,
Great video, what is your size on your regular bike? I’m having issue with the sizing.
I have a 54 venge with a 130 stem -12 degree
I’m running a 54 new madone 130 stem but still not comfortable. I wonder if we have to go up in sizing on trek bikes or same sizing. Haven’t really bad issue
As it is great to see these high end bikes, would be nice to see similar testing from the other end of the spectrum. Probably more people would be interested in some more budget friendly bike options, and seeing how they compare against your "standard" giant tcr, as reference.
Thank you, David. I'd be interested in a wind tunnel test on a more modest bike. I have an aluminum BMC Team Machine, some exposed cables and not aero optimized. What kind of aero gain would a rider like this realize with an upgrade to a modern aero bike such as the Propel or Madone? Thanks again for the excellent reviews.
15-20 Watts
Under 45kmh probably less that wearing a skin suit.
Please do stat comparison with 2023 Giant Propel Advanced SL both wind tunnel test & ride feel. Thanks
Might need to check your comparison prices: the S Works SL7 is13250 with same SRAM group. So basically the same price not "much cheaper".
Any reason why you didn't use water bottles during test? I know the TCR downtube is thicker to improve drag with a water bottle so would have been curious how it would compared with bottles which is more realistic than no bottles. Super awesome to know my TCR fares well against Madone/Ultimate even with exposed cables.
A guy in my group ride just bought one with ultegra di2, not sure the exact frame grade. Looks better in the black I think in that design. The thing is the young amateur racer that would benefit the most is priced out from these bikes. Personally I'd go the emonda for an all around bike.
Really fascinating putting side-by-side "real road" perception ("blazing fast!") with wind tunnel results (2% faster comparing to your Giant). That makes me thinking: is this whole wind-tunnel testing a big BS? Another thing - 40km/h at 300W. From my experience - sounds _almost_ right. But what are your real life results? How many Watts you have to smash to keep 40 km/h on Trek? Cheers!
Hi David, can you comment about the climbing characteristic of this bike? Is it really that bad? Or this can be considered as an all around bike knowing that its geometry is just the same as the emonda minus the weight difference
The wind tunnel test result is one thing. But like what Dave has said, on the real road you actually feel faster. This means the bike actually gives additional confidence and inspire you to go even faster. This additional benefit is not accounted for in the wind tunnel result.
Nicely done, I would add to your test a subjective test, such as most aero relax position. When you look at you body position on the giant you have little option when holding the top of the handlebar, on the trek like other bike with such handlebar, you can use the top of the handlebar and set your body in a semi tt position. The review should incorporate what the bike allows you to do in a sort of way. Again nice review!
It’s about time Trek gave their bike to a genuine reviewer. 👍
Thanks for honest review david. Uncomfortable and only marginally quicker than a climbing big...like most aero offerings tbh
So I’m assuming this trek is prob close to as aero as any other of the new best aero bikes so do you think it’s safe to assume the tcr would do about the same against a canyon aeroad or cervello s5 ?
great question and funny that i had the same EXACT question as i am in the process of upgrading my bike to one of the aforementioned three. Hopefully, someone can give us some additional insight!
This and the Cervelo S5 are the most appealing bikes to the eye
Thinking of this or the sl8 tarmac- guessing the sl8 will have more comfort but equally as fast ?
Thanks David, how does it compare to the Orbea Orca Aero ?
good work... I know you ha e mentioned the cost of the wind tunnel is somewhat prohibitive.. but if you go a few more times with different bikes you may just come to the conclusion that there is maybe 20 watts difference between the most aero and the least.. and a Lot of bikes in the middle.. leaving no real need to do more aero testing
P.S. I’ve owned the new Enve 4.5s and rate them really highly all around.
They are an amazing wheelset, and very stable too.
Hello, great review, may I ask how tall you are,? not sure what size to go for ( I'm 180 cm and between a size 56 and 58) ...
I'm 181cm and on a 56cm which fit me perfectly, I know the 58 would be too long for me
@@davidarthur thanks !
Normally when we have relatively "drastic" new designs with bikes, there is initial backlash leading to acceptance and enjoyment of the aesthetics over time. After initially really liking the look of the bike design, I'm not sure if the paint schemes aren't doing as many favors for the bike compares to previous Trek bikes (which were almost saved by very nice paint options), but I'm liking the design less over time. Something about the shape of the stem seems a little clunky compared to other bikes as well as not maintaining the clean elegant lines in the frame design, and I think proportionally the frame shape kind of lends itself to the clunky descriptor (not talking about aero or actual speed, just looks). The two tone paint scheme wasn't really utilized to its full potential in my opinion, as I think they could have made some of the more beefy parts of the frame look slimmer which would have added to the overall look.
Nice looking bike, but I’m really scared about that seatpost “iso speed”. That thing looks like it’s going to fail within a couple of thousand KMs
Have you seen how much aeroplane wings flex?
@@davidarthur yes I have.
Have you seen all the issues with all the custom designed parts the past years 🤔?
Kuch kuch, Canyon, Specialized, recall Trek etc 🤔
@@davidarthur How's is this even relevant?
@@davidarthur plane wings are not designed to be sat on....no step
a five year old could have written a more logical comment, your remark is based on nothing!
Do the new Giant Propel vs TCR in Wind Tunnel, that will be really interesting and if you can get a hold of it, a RIM TCR, that will settle alot of discussions
Should be able to get hold of a rim TCR. Ive just got a Advanced pro 1 rim 2022. Killer bike
Good review Dave and interesting results but the price is outrageous. You could by a nice used motorbike for that money. Or several top used bikes; road, gravel and mountain.
Change the wheels and tires and you could hit 7kg on the madone. I never change my madone set up so this new one is my next bike. I’m on my third madone. I also run 140 disc on the front.
I’ve also crashed my madone and got free wheels and 40% of the frame from trek. You can’t complain about that fir service.
wow , makes me wonder if the "aero bike" is a bit of marketing hype . I love your video, thanks for sharing
How long do you think before we get a sub-7kg aero road bike at an "accessible" price.
I mean a bike that is built light enough to absorb the weight of Ultegra/Force (or lower) level components and still be sub 7kgs.
What bottle cage is that on the Madone? Do tell
Can you do a video like this for the venge?
Great review. Wind tunnel test tells the data story. Real world test tells stiffness story - which is the DNA of the bike, if that's what you want. Very informative review 👍
Should have said, plus the price, until these new bikes are offering some radical change or improvement, I won't be buying 🙂
They should make a proprietary 'saddle' bag for that weird cavity.
The amount of money that Trek is demanding for the Madone line was obscene with the previous iteration and outright madness with this one. It's to the point where Cervelo and Pinarello are almost bargain brands in comparison.
what color is this? silver matte or some custom white?
Eye wateringly (sp) expensive, but I'm a big supporter of 'buy whatever makes you ride more'. If that takes $23 thousand AUD and you can afford it, then so be it.
Still, you could get an equally aero road bike from a different vendor with zipp 454nsw for cheaper. Now THAT would make me ride more :).
I can't decide if I like this or not. But I'm pretty sure I'd like it if I had one.
I do like the stem area, beefy but refined.
Does it include a HANDLEBAR recall?
So if you are riding the whole day in the peloton, how important is aero than if you compare the Madonna with the TCR?
Depends on how long you're going to be on the front of the peloton or tucked away inside it
Narrow handlebars probably fit most people better (and can be added to other bikes to make them aerodynamically cleaner).
Does the weight of the bike included pedals ? BikeRadar weight the bike same size is 7.29kg
Aero test between a top end rim brake bike and this one please.
Can you review Java Fuoco 5 disc j-air 2022 bike ?
❤you got my attention ❤️ for testing at low normal human speeds. This is very useful.
Any chance you can borrow Scott Foil from Francis Cade to see the difference between all these bikes?!
For a company that can’t make a handlebar stem combo without having to recall them all I don’t think I would trust that frame not to fail a few thousand miles down the road. Especially when you get heavier riders using them 🤔
@@donjohnson487 I did say something useful. Grow up 🤦🏻♂️
Frame has lifetime warranty, so don't worry
Bro, how about BMC TeamMachine SLR01 TeamPro?
so good there is no need for bike computer anymore :)
Whats th3 différence btw SLR 7 2024 and SLR 9 2024 please ?
It's beautiful
David what do you think of Trek abandoning short people?
agreed there reach are too long now
please do the same test to new giant propel
if you go back in the wind tunnel, you should consider testing at 50 and 70kph, since those are more realistic speeds where aero really matters.
Why did you say the Sworks tarmsc is cheaper that’s 14.5k compared to 13.2k
Hi.. What size is your giant?
Thanks
Dave rides an ML TCR
@@Lemond75 thanks...sir...
Im Giant guy, but this trek looks way better.