Great video once again, thanks ! Well this makes me think about two other scenarios. 1) young CrossFit Athlete sees he has high talent, decides to go for 2-3 years of heavy steroid abuse to built massive strength but stays out of competition, then goes clean and focuses mainly on building his conditioning engine while maintaining strength gains forever, THEN goes to competition. I guess many have done it this way, that would be unfair to those banned athletes. But they were smarter, maybe that deserves credit ;) 2) Transgender athletes obviously have an objective huge advantage when competing against women, but that’s an old topic…
Great to start a conversation about this. I've been saying for years the long lasting effects of PEDs keeps an unfair advantage. I think the only "fair" way to do this would be to have a separate category for athletes caught using PEDs, so not a "ban" but a separate category.
It is an option, but you think anyone would watch the category of banned athletes. Maybe better to got full-blown 'enhanced games', given that athletes would be tested for health related parameters (hematocrit, etc...). Honestly, I do not know the answer. I only know that if I were an athlete I'd be super pissed to see a doped athlete coming back after a 2 to 4 year doping ban given the potential of muscle memory.
The forgiveness around steroids is sickening. Athletes often get caught years later, meanwhile they have grown their brands, got sponsorships, more money, more fame, etc. Their competitors missed out on all of that, and the thung they've been working on their entire lives is gone. This is why it pays off to be a psychopathic liar, you can apologise 1000 times and do harm 1001 times. Humanity at its finest. Even someone as cartoonish as Liver King was able to make his money and then apologise.
@@wod-science starting with a lifetime ban would be a great deterrent already, and even more importantly, there should be less corruption. As far as I'm aware, at least in my pro days the number 1 one day to cheat on tests was to never get the real sample to the lab.
Not to mention that whomever your favorite is was never caught. Is it cheatingvto be the best at cheating? Maybe you dont understand dialysis as well as trasfusions, as well as undetectable methods. Steroids were legal so noone is cheating, their records stand. Now everyone trying to compare to past juicers based on some paperwork. Somehow your anus got connected to your esophagus.
Yep, no second chance - I've long thought that athletes have a long term advantage as a result of this. You cheat, you're done - if they want to compete, create a game for all the cheaters and keep them away from the people that don't. I've often thought about taking steroids to improve performance, it would take me from a high level to the top level, but it's cheating!!
I hope I did not miss it but was there a measure of current free testosterone in the former AAS users? There can be potential in the muscle but without the body naturally producing there is not a way to fulfill that potential (in theory). This would also be dependent on the PED used but you did reference exogenous testosterone almost exclusively
Excellent points. S-calculated free testosterone (pmol/L) was 520 for the controls, 1236 for the current and 445 for the former. With no statistical differences between controls and former. So free T likely does not explain the differences between former and controls.
Logetime ban. Hell no. All our favorite stars are juiced. It is so much better for sports. No one wants to watch girls high school basketball. P.e.d.s. are the best thingvto ever happen to sports. We need to just allow it and monitor for health. Problems arise trying to duck and dodge tests. Plus, money easily buys off bad tests. So bans only hurt lower finaced athletes. Also the entire tour de france behind lance was on something. U don't want a natty tour. Be like watching a traffic jam. Are they even moving?
Actually, studies in cyclists (including the doped ones) have shown that they live longer than the average human. Long-term effects of exercise counteract the negative effects of doping? Might be.
@@wod-science that’s amazing. I read Peter attia book and he talks about the benefits of exercise as well. Epo I know thickens the blood but I guess it probably not as permanent as other drugs. Have a great day!
If you experienced “memory” with a high dose of testosterone, you might not see the same results in the future without that dose. Is it? Not enough stimulus for that extra nucleus without extra test. Bro scientist's talking about it a lot 😁
Hm, could be true. What is known (in mice) that previous T administration sentisizes the muscle to FUTURE training (without T) after a period of not taking any drugs. So no matter how much you take the second time around, there are potential benefits once the atheltes starts training again, eventhough it is clean.
@@wod-sciencewhy not just change the rules and allow the athletes to use whatever they have at there disposal within reason on course. After documentaries like Icarus were well aware that most athletes are doping on some level.
If you have a permanent advantage then isn't a sporting death sentence appropriate? If I have AI implanted in my brain permanently, should I be banned from chess for 4 years or forever?
@@corbindallas3220multiple reasons. If we allow all PED’s it will become more so about your chemist and less so about your training, athletic ability, and willpower. Also, it’s incredibly damaging to health. And naturally, it would promote this unhealthy approach to non competent people. Most people use PED’s in competition anyway but because of the rules it’s limited and not promoted
10g per kg per week in the first study you showed, do you know HOW MUCH GEAR THAT IS BRO. top pro bodybuilder take ~0.02g per kg of bodyweight per week 😭😭😭 and you cannot use synthetic anabolics in pro sports bc a simple random pee test will flag you for up to a year after you stop for example 19nor's. Additionally, you cant go beyond ~1100ng/dl (which is withing physiological range and will not increase performance with statistical significance) with bio-identical testosterone as biological passports and longitudinal doping test data collection will flag you 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
Yes I know its a mouse study duh, but its also not = to their claimed 600mg per week for a typical bodybuilder at all. They claimed this model is comparable to 600mg total per week for a bodybuilder, WHICH IS NOT TRUE
Great video once again, thanks ! Well this makes me think about two other scenarios. 1) young CrossFit Athlete sees he has high talent, decides to go for 2-3 years of heavy steroid abuse to built massive strength but stays out of competition, then goes clean and focuses mainly on building his conditioning engine while maintaining strength gains forever, THEN goes to competition. I guess many have done it this way, that would be unfair to those banned athletes. But they were smarter, maybe that deserves credit ;) 2) Transgender athletes obviously have an objective huge advantage when competing against women, but that’s an old topic…
Based on what I present in this video… lifetime ban or not? 👇
Great video once again, thanks ! Well this makes me think about two other scenarios.
1) young CrossFit Athlete sees he has high talent, decides to go for 2-3 years of heavy steroid abuse to built massive strength but stays out of competition, then goes clean and focuses mainly on building his conditioning engine while maintaining strength gains forever, THEN goes to competition. I guess many have done it this way, that would be unfair to those banned athletes. But they were smarter, maybe that deserves credit ;)
2) Transgender athletes obviously have an objective huge advantage when competing against women, but that’s an old topic…
Pretty sad to push a young promising athlete in that direction, but I agree, probably has been done before.
This is an incredibly cool video. Seriously, thank you!
Thank YOU ser!
Great to start a conversation about this. I've been saying for years the long lasting effects of PEDs keeps an unfair advantage. I think the only "fair" way to do this would be to have a separate category for athletes caught using PEDs, so not a "ban" but a separate category.
It is an option, but you think anyone would watch the category of banned athletes. Maybe better to got full-blown 'enhanced games', given that athletes would be tested for health related parameters (hematocrit, etc...).
Honestly, I do not know the answer. I only know that if I were an athlete I'd be super pissed to see a doped athlete coming back after a 2 to 4 year doping ban given the potential of muscle memory.
But we already have all ped athletes competing against each other lol ...😂
Great presentation. Well done.
🙏 thanks.
Good video, thanks! Who bit your left arm??
Got into an accident. A car decided to turn right on me. Not too serious :).
The forgiveness around steroids is sickening. Athletes often get caught years later, meanwhile they have grown their brands, got sponsorships, more money, more fame, etc.
Their competitors missed out on all of that, and the thung they've been working on their entire lives is gone.
This is why it pays off to be a psychopathic liar, you can apologise 1000 times and do harm 1001 times. Humanity at its finest.
Even someone as cartoonish as Liver King was able to make his money and then apologise.
I can’t disagree with all what you said here. It’s sad. Better doping tests is a solution, but that is super expensive and cumbersome.
@@wod-science starting with a lifetime ban would be a great deterrent already, and even more importantly, there should be less corruption. As far as I'm aware, at least in my pro days the number 1 one day to cheat on tests was to never get the real sample to the lab.
Not to mention that whomever your favorite is was never caught. Is it cheatingvto be the best at cheating? Maybe you dont understand dialysis as well as trasfusions, as well as undetectable methods. Steroids were legal so noone is cheating, their records stand. Now everyone trying to compare to past juicers based on some paperwork. Somehow your anus got connected to your esophagus.
lifetime ban!
I understand this position, just not sure that human data is sufficiently robust to implement this in real life.
Yep, no second chance - I've long thought that athletes have a long term advantage as a result of this. You cheat, you're done - if they want to compete, create a game for all the cheaters and keep them away from the people that don't. I've often thought about taking steroids to improve performance, it would take me from a high level to the top level, but it's cheating!!
Good that you did not do it 👍. Thanks for the input.
I hope I did not miss it but was there a measure of current free testosterone in the former AAS users? There can be potential in the muscle but without the body naturally producing there is not a way to fulfill that potential (in theory). This would also be dependent on the PED used but you did reference exogenous testosterone almost exclusively
Excellent points.
S-calculated free testosterone (pmol/L) was 520 for the controls, 1236 for the current and 445 for the former. With no statistical differences between controls and former. So free T likely does not explain the differences between former and controls.
Man my muscles don't remember Testesterone lol😂 I can tell you thet much
hahaha
This case is valid even for Sarms?
Likely, but I cannot say for sure as specifically SRAMs were not tested in these studies.
Logetime ban. Hell no. All our favorite stars are juiced. It is so much better for sports. No one wants to watch girls high school basketball. P.e.d.s. are the best thingvto ever happen to sports. We need to just allow it and monitor for health. Problems arise trying to duck and dodge tests. Plus, money easily buys off bad tests. So bans only hurt lower finaced athletes. Also the entire tour de france behind lance was on something. U don't want a natty tour. Be like watching a traffic jam. Are they even moving?
You are descibing the 'enhanced games' - heard about that?
Apart from sports performance. I wonder how much shorter their lives are? So many cyclists died so young.
Actually, studies in cyclists (including the doped ones) have shown that they live longer than the average human. Long-term effects of exercise counteract the negative effects of doping? Might be.
@@wod-science that’s amazing. I read Peter attia book and he talks about the benefits of exercise as well. Epo I know thickens the blood but I guess it probably not as permanent as other drugs. Have a great day!
@@RobertNaik that’s correct. There is no data on the long term benefits of EPO. Would be super interesting. Attia’s book is great
If you experienced “memory” with a high dose of testosterone, you might not see the same results in the future without that dose. Is it?
Not enough stimulus for that extra nucleus without extra test.
Bro scientist's talking about it a lot 😁
Hm, could be true. What is known (in mice) that previous T administration sentisizes the muscle to FUTURE training (without T) after a period of not taking any drugs.
So no matter how much you take the second time around, there are potential benefits once the atheltes starts training again, eventhough it is clean.
A lifetime ban feels like a death sentence; I don't think it should be
I understand your position tbh. Nevertheless, if athletes know the consequences of taking AAS (lifetime ban), they might reconsider it? I don't know.
@@wod-sciencewhy not just change the rules and allow the athletes to use whatever they have at there disposal within reason on course. After documentaries like Icarus were well aware that most athletes are doping on some level.
If you have a permanent advantage then isn't a sporting death sentence appropriate? If I have AI implanted in my brain permanently, should I be banned from chess for 4 years or forever?
Don't take steroids and you'll be fine
@@corbindallas3220multiple reasons. If we allow all PED’s it will become more so about your chemist and less so about your training, athletic ability, and willpower. Also, it’s incredibly damaging to health. And naturally, it would promote this unhealthy approach to non competent people. Most people use PED’s in competition anyway but because of the rules it’s limited and not promoted
10g per kg per week in the first study you showed, do you know HOW MUCH GEAR THAT IS BRO. top pro bodybuilder take ~0.02g per kg of bodyweight per week 😭😭😭 and you cannot use synthetic anabolics in pro sports bc a simple random pee test will flag you for up to a year after you stop for example 19nor's. Additionally, you cant go beyond ~1100ng/dl (which is withing physiological range and will not increase performance with statistical significance) with bio-identical testosterone as biological passports and longitudinal doping test data collection will flag you 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
The first study is a mouse study. High dose indeed but not directly comparable to humans.
Yes I know its a mouse study duh, but its also not = to their claimed 600mg per week for a typical bodybuilder at all. They claimed this model is comparable to 600mg total per week for a bodybuilder, WHICH IS NOT TRUE
Great video once again, thanks ! Well this makes me think about two other scenarios.
1) young CrossFit Athlete sees he has high talent, decides to go for 2-3 years of heavy steroid abuse to built massive strength but stays out of competition, then goes clean and focuses mainly on building his conditioning engine while maintaining strength gains forever, THEN goes to competition. I guess many have done it this way, that would be unfair to those banned athletes. But they were smarter, maybe that deserves credit ;)
2) Transgender athletes obviously have an objective huge advantage when competing against women, but that’s an old topic…