What is the Beatific Vision?
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- The beatific vision is the ultimate creaturely experience, when we see God in heaven. Few doctrines are as universal throughout church history and yet as misunderstood and neglected today as the beatific vision. Here I offer four clarifications for what this doctrine means. This video draws broadly from my article “Will We See God’s Essence? A Defense of a Thomistic Account of the Beatific Vision,” Scottish Journal of Theology, forthcoming.
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:05 - The Beatific Vision is Biblical
05:07 - The Beatific Vision is Not Bodily Vision
07:01 - The Beatific Vision is of the Divine Essence
13:48 - The Beatific Vision is Ultimate Happiness
16:25 - Conclusion
I am shook that I’m wrapping up a masters in theology in a few weeks and have NEVER been taught about this.
it is definitely one of those often forgotten aspects of theology!
Thank you for this video. I lost both parents this year and it’s obviously been tough. They were both believers and the thought that they are now experiencing this makes their loss more bearable, along with the hope that I, too, can share in it someday.
So sorry to hear of that loss and so glad the video could be of some comfort.
Pamela I lost my mother and my son who was 46 when he passed and mom was 92. I also lost two dear friends that I have known for years. The Lord has given me grace. Whenever I feel my heart being torn by the memory of my son and mom, or the others it is hard, but when I hand it over to the Lord He gives me strength to go on. I have to turn it over to Him whenever it tugs on the strings of my hearts and throws me into pain. Thank God I have Him to turn to because It would eat me up with pain if I didn't have such a Friend in Jesus my Lord.
I'm 73 and was converted in 1968. This was such a life changing experience Plus some of the other experiences I had. The three scriptures in the Psalms that you mentioned have been treasured and meditated upon. They have been with me for years and I have thought of them much. David said that he would be satisfied when he awakes with His likeness and sees Him in a manner of speaking.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard of this doctrine. It warms my heart, but also terrifies me to a degree. I can’t fathom perceiving YHWH’s essence in person. I’m terrified, but I can’t wait.
Thanks Dr Ortlund, God bless.
Totally know what you mean by saying it's both terrifying and heart-warming. Reminds of the passage in That Hideous Strength where CS Lewis describes obedience as “something that would have been terror but for the joy, and joy but for the terror.”
I get the feeling you’re talking about. It’s like waiting in line for an intense roller coaster, knowing how exhilarating it will be yet at the same time how stomach churning
I've never heard of this before. Thank you so much for sharing! Beautiful. Poetry
❤️!
Psalm 42 “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.
My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?”
😌
I like the updates to the channel! I'm grateful that you put citations from resources you quote into the video now. That was the one thing I was missing from your older videos. Looking forward to the future content and your book coming out later this month!
Thank you! Now I understand passages about seeing God face to face and seeing the glory of God way better. Thanks for the most underrated baptist channel
Marvelous video. Its absolute perfection.
I'm really loving that intro! Also saw you changed the name of the channel a bit, love the changes.
Thanks Gavin, that was top quality content, your videos should have SO many more likes!
Keep doing what you do!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed!
I am positive I had this. With my eyes open . The best way I can explain what I saw in the limited vocabulary for heavenly things is i saw 12 , 6 pointed flying flower, snowflake, stars ? I drew what i saw then did a image search and they look like (6 pointed rosettes and the seed of life or flower of life or star of David) .. they were all connected at the wings - moving together in unity. Each had two wings that flew (that's why I say flying ) , they were alive , they resembled water in the essence of a snowflake - in the center it was brigher , and spiraling and pulsing. They were an electric translucent blue- I can't explain the color. It's not of this world. I can't put into words what I experienced. They were at my brow line , like a floral crown, so i was looking up . I've heard many words in spirit too- they are in ancient hebrew and arabic . I've been told things I've never know before. I can't describe the immense love I've experienced.
I know God is personal and gives divine revelation to his children. You're the first person I've found that had validated that visions and a personal relationship with God is real. I've reached out to churches but they act like what I'm saying is unbiblical and pagan. I know I'm here for a purpose and I know this is from our father in heaven .
God certainly does give real supernatural experiences, and the church certainly does neglect them in its lukewarmness. But I would encourage immense caution in this realm, as the occult is far more easy to access and readily available, and gives us the immediate feedback and sparkles we want with less effort. To seek God continuously in simple and sincere prayer is hard on the flesh, which wants results right away. I would really encourage prayer for discernment, not to discourage a desire for an experience, but to be cautionary about the origin of the experience and the means you sought it. Many spiritually hungry people fall into the occult.
Outstanding!
Thanks Adam!
Excellent video. I've always taken the Beatific Vision to be seeing the essence of the Pre-Incarnate God The Son. Thank you.
St. Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her.
Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen.
St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter.
She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth.
”My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation.
I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.”
I highlight different passages of Scripture with different colors, depending on theme. It's good to know theres actually a name for the passages that compel me to highlight them in the color that I reserve for pure holiness. Thanks.
Really liking the intro and the new camera, Gavin. Can you make a video on how ministers can apply theology to ministry?
Thanks! Great idea, will consider.
SAME
Really thought-provoking. Just a thought, in this "reaching of fullness", is the pure fact of quantifying it not diminishing and limiting the beatific vision. This glimps that you speak off into this encounter does feel just out of reach of any meaningful understanding.
God the Eternal Son, is the same God who Moses encountered in the Burning Bush, along with the Eternal Father and Spirit! This same One Triune God shall be beheld in all Glory! Indeed, all eyes shall gaze upon Him who we have pierced!
Very true amen.
Matthew I'm liking your comment because I am so thrilled we agree on something! I feel like my UA-cam career is now complete. God bless you!
@@TruthUnites Lol, I know we disagree greatly on many, many things, but like Saint Peter in the garden drawing the sword, we are both quick to defend Who and what means the most to both of us! May we continue to pray for each other! God's peace to you always Dr. Ortlund!! See you on your next video!😁
Your videos have helped me so much! Could you make a video about how you study and research topics and doctrine. What books are you reading to get all side in things like Catholicism, Protestantism, & E. Ortho. just for an example!!
So glad to hear that! Good idea -- will consider that for future videos.
Thank you so much for this, I have actually had a lot of trouble finding information on this that I could digest with my tired dad brain. I had been confused on why God would have created such an amazing world only for the end goal to be to just sit there and stare at Him for all eternity. No doubt if that was the case then I trust God that this would be best, but from my narrow perspective I can’t really comprehend God the Father in a non-abstract way, so it becomes very easy to fall into worship of His created things which seem to directly and more clearly promise the satisfaction im looking for.
But a world where I can live as a human who is in direct and close contact to God? Sign me up!
Hi Dr. Ortlund, I'm a long time viewer of the channel, and I love the new logo and style of the channel intros. I do have one thought though; I don't think you need the "with Dr. Gavin Ortlund" in the name of the channel. It makes it kinda clunky and less memorable, while "Truth Unites" is really great and concise. A great place for that is in the thumbnail and on the channel banner. (I'm 17, and I moderately keep up with UA-cam algorithm things, so that's where this is coming from. If you don't care about the channel being recommended more or any of that, just keep it as is!) Love the channel, you've really helped me understand and express some of my protestant views in a deep and eloquent way.
Thanks David, so glad you've been watching! I've been really wrestling with this. I got counsel to include my name in the title to avoid confusion; but I admit its clunky. Do you really think the algorithms recommend longer titles less?
@@TruthUnites Indirectly, probably yes. Directly, no one really knows. I say indirectly because there's going to be some element of "how many people search directly for this channel" that goes into the calculations, and I suspect that having a longer channel name reduces that number. It isn't to say that this can't work; two examples that I am personally subscribed to are "The Ten Minute Bible Hour" (y'all should totally do a collab), and "Tasting History with Max Miller", both channels have 6 figures in subscribers. The effect is most likely between negligible and minor. One last note - both a UA-cam search and a quick Google search for "Truth Unites" returns all your pages, and not much else near the top. I don't think you need to have your name in the channel name to have clarity. Putting your name in places like that intro slide is great, and I think it serves the purpose just as well. I'm sure it will be fine either way though!
@@davidcates2639 thanks for the feedback! I’ve gotten different advice about this but I incline toward your view. Going to keep asking people about it.
Christ is the DOOR 😍 to the FATHER ❤️🥰 I cant wait to hug our Father???
I recommend that you should read "The fire within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay.
It touches upon this subject one way or another.
Super helpful and concise video on the topic, thank you Gavin! I’m just starting to learn about this topic and the video was a great starting point.
One question I still have is how can we affirm both that our vision of God will be immediate (without mediation) at 6:40 and that Christ will still have a mediatory role at 11:30. It seems like a contradiction to say that our experience of God will have no mediation and that Christ will mediate. Your explanation towards the end was helpful, but I still feel that tension and I don’t know if the two reasons you give totally resolve that tension.
I'd love to read that journal article you wrote if it's published and available!
Hey Taylor! It should be out soon -- will update the publication details once it is.
Thank you very much for this, on which I have heard so little, despite entering my 70th year tomorrow. How does your concept of heaven relate to the new creation? Do you agree with Michael Allen that Christians want to make the new creation too much like life as we know it now?
Best Video on Beatific Vision (so far on UA-cam in my watch list)
Garvin, I only have one question
God will remove all his clothes (it means physical beatific vision),
Why not simply say that God will be physical thing in the sky with an infinite light? Analogous to moon (Hans Boersma gives the similar analogy)
Why deny the true physical beatific vision?
1. Did Paul have the beatific vision?
2. If no, what did he experience?
3. Can others have such an experience?
I really liked the intro and the new visual identity in general. But the color seems off, too much contrast. Just my two cents! Really appreciate your work :)
I agree, thanks for the feedback!
If I understand it correctly according to my own tradition (that 's always a big "if"), some may catch a very brief glimpse of the Beatific Vision on this side of mortality. In the Eastern Church we call that the Uncreated Light or the Tabor Light. I 've never actually heard a proper comparison of the two concepts. Maybe a topic for a future video? (In the meantime, I shall endeavor to learn a little bit more on the Beatific Vision from my Western brothers and sisters.) Thank you for the enlightening video, Dr Ortlund!
Although I’m not Eastern Orthodox, I do like their concept of “the Uncreated Light or the Tabor Light.” I think that’s what the Beatific Vision in heaven will be like. Furthermore, even though I don’t believe everything Eastern Orthodoxy says about the essence-energy distinction of God, I do agree with them that we’ll never see God’s essence because of His transcendence. What we’ll see in the Beatific Vision is God, shining through the Son, in the glorified Christ. It seems like the New Testament points to this over and over again: “The Son is the image of the invisible God ...” (Col. 1:15); “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being ...” (Heb. 1:3); “... we wait for the blessed hope-the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ ...” (Tit. 2:13); “But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” (1Jo. 3:2); ”For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.” (1Co. 13:12); etc, etc.
Is the beatific vision available for those in heaven, before the new heavens & earth? Thanks!
Basil the Great's Letter VIII, An Apology to the Caesareans for his Withdrawal, and a Treatise on Faith says that the ultimate end is God the Father himself, "For when we no longer know God in a mirror or through any alien medium, but approach him as "Alone" and "One," then we shall know also the ultimate end. For they say that Christ's kingdom is all our material knowledge, but God's and Father's immaterial...the contemplation of divinity itself." (Basil is here contrasting hypostatic incarnation with the common ousia and the Father's non-incarnate-ness, not at all saying that Christ isn't God.) Later he says that Han intellect while on earth strives to "comprehend the activities (Energia) of the Maker, judging by these in the meantime by their effects, to the end that in this way...it may one day aquire the power to approach the divinity itself." This one day is the Hour according to Basil here.
Note that this isn't how Eastern Orthodox who are in the Palamas tradition present the end of man. They present it as being able to participate in the uncreated energies but the essence is not knowable or seeable. Basil isn't saying this at all here.
Also, a nose-tweak for my Reformed brothers: the chief end of man isn't to glorify God but to see God in his glory unveiled. :) Athanasius would agree. Love is not self-serving, after all, and so would God's own purpose for his creation be self-serving, or one of communion, of which our glorification of him is a mere necessary component?
I'm not quote mining as I go through. I'm actually reading Basil to settle in my mind whether what I've heard Roman Catholics say about him or what I've heard Eastern Orthodox say is more true. I'm just pulling out all relevant quotes to any of the doctrinal big issues as I go, without prejudice.
Another part: "..consider not the kingdom of heaven as aught other than the true contemplation of of the realities, which the Holy Scripture calls 'blessedness'.... For the things of which we now see only the shadows, as in a mirror, later, when we have been freed from this earthly body and put on an indestructible and immortal body, we shall behold their archetypes."
This is near the end of that letter. There's more to the quote, but I'm slow on a phone. 🤣🤣🤣
Hebrews says, after the last enemy is under Christs feet, then Christ will be subject under The Father's Feet.
Do we have the beatific vision in heaven before the resurection?
9:30 i believe we will see the deity of Christ, in union with, together with the resurrected human nature. we will see both!
I Love thinking about the beatific vision...!!!!
Do you share Aquinas' view of a hierarchy of saints in heaven? On the one hand, we should all be equally unified to Christ in heaven, which should mean that all saints are equally holy. But scripture also teaches that "the last shall be first, the first shall be last", which suggests a hierarchy of saints.
I don't know all the nuances of Aquinas' view, but I affirm the broad idea that there is hierarchy and differentiation among saints and angels in heaven. Hope that helps.
Thanks for this video I’m gonna do some research into this now.
Edit: Off topic but are you a Calvinist Gavin?
I'm broadly Reformed but I wear it gently.
@@TruthUnites Oh I see, but isn’t reformed itself kinda broad? Like including Lutheranism among systems?
9:30 we will also see, i believe, also three persons of the Godhead. like The Father is seen in Rev 4-5, like Christ The Son is seen in Rev 1 and other places and like The Holy Spirit is seen in Rev 4:5
wow...i pray we all make it to heaven!!!
What do you do with Jesus’s claim, “if you’ve seen me, then you’ve seen the father“?
What comes to mind immediately for me is Peter’s answer when Jesus asks, “who do you say that I am?“ Would you call Peter’s vision of Christ in Jesus beatific?
You mentioned that we are brought up, as it were, to God in the beatific vision. But the whole thrust of the gospel narrative is of God coming down, as it were, to reveal God’s self in creation. Does God then retreat to heaven, requiring an assent of sorts in order to see God? Is God’s dissent a one time thing in Jesus or an always already thing in all of creation (the universal Christ) or both? I wonder if you could speak to these questions.
Job.19 Verses 25 to 27 [“25] For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: [26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: [27] Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” So we have a redeemer and we will see God - and it’s a bodily seeing not some sort of NeoPlatonic out of the body spiritual seeing that the Gnostics might desire. We can make things too complex, and can any seeing of God not involve Christ the Logos?
Would you say that the beatific vision is the means/experience by which man enjoys God forever (WLC Q1)?
I would say it is the pinnacle expression of that reality, but not its only expression.
so is the beatific vision and theosis the same thing, or is there a difference?
No, they’re not even close
No, it's actually diametrically opposed. The Beatific vision holds no place for the resurrection of the body. We will not see God's essence but continue to know and love God through his energies. There will be multiple goods in the afterlife and free will to chose those goods. The Beatific vision does not allow for any of that, since the only thing allowed is willing the essence of God.
@@jasonmurray1771 How is seeing God men’s we can’t choose or do other things?! What you described isn’t the beatific vision but rather a horrible view of heaven before the resurrection.
@@jasonmurray1771 What do you mean by your last sentence? How does the beatific vision only allow willing the essence of God? That seems incoherent to me.
The Beatific Vision is traditionally understood as something one experiences in heaven.
Dr. Ortlund, would you please tell me your understanding of this: John 3:13 says (I am translating from the Greek) - "And no one (no man) has ever gone up into heaven except the one who out of heaven came down, the Son of man." When Jesus said this obviously Abraham, Moses, Elijah, the prophets were all dead and so according to this statement by Christ they had not gone to heaven. There is nothing I can see in the context of the statement indicating any reason to not take Jesus' words literally. I do take it literally. So I am left with the question: When did people start going to heaven when they die? Most Christians (not all) in most churches believe they will go to heaven when they die. I can't see this belief as rooted in anything other than non-Christian sources, such as Platonic philosophy. If you share this belief in going to heaven at death, my question is, Why?
Turn your eyes upon Jesus has a different meaning to me now when I see Jesus I see the Godhead.
Early in the video you describe the beatific vision as implicitly described in the Bible vs. explicitly stated. Interpreting the bible both explicitly & implicitly is good. My question is, how do you (Gavin) know when to accept an implicit interpretation and when to reject it? I believe there is richly textured implicit information to support the beatific vision, and I believe there is also richly textured implicit information to support Marian doctrine in the Catholic Church. Ultimately, I believe this comes down to human opinion or authority. If only human opinion, we as brothers in Christ, end up like Democrats & Republicans who have no objective leg to stand on so all they can do is fight. Bishop Robert Barron often uses the analogy of a baseball game without an umpire - Can you imagine the bickering...
I didn't actually distinguish between explicit and implicit -- I said it's explicit, but not fleshed out. The broader question of how to affirm something implicit is a hermeneutical bee's nest I probably cannot resolve in a UA-cam comment!
@@TruthUnites Don't you think the way you expressed the beatific vision (and I believe you expressed it accurately) in your opening dialog is the very definition of implicit? To me, explicit would mean perfectly or clearly fleshed out and as you stated above "I said it's explicit, but not fleshed out". which does not seem coherent. I am not trying to be a pest I am really hoping to engage the most important question and that is the question of authority vs. opinion in the Church. I see the broader society crumbling because of a lack of objective truth and I don't want to see the same continue to happen to the Church. Someone must hold the keys to a living authority, don't you think?
8:31 Ah, reminds me of Eastern-Orthodox going all crazy :)) "This is why Greogry Palamas made a distinction between God's essence and energies". As if just because one makes a distinction, that distinction is necessarily good and correct 😂
Did Jesus have faith?
Jesus is the same and the one God, there is only one God.
:)
I know this sounds completely crazy, but I 100% had it on shrooms. You dont see it. You Spirituality "see" it. But its more like a feeling or state of being. And i dont think i was exactly face to face with God. That probably would be too much for us. I think He revealed as much as i could handle. But I spiritually felt Either Mary(I am not RC) or some other Feminine angel, in addition to The saints, and the divine council. Only way to describe it is pure unfiltered love of God, which you them feel for Humanity and to a lesser extent his creation. Not worship of creation just appreciation. We do go somewhere wonderful after our body dies. 100%.
God created everything including psychedelic molecules. I personally think these are Spiritual defibrillators. Because my spiritual state before and after were worlds apart.
Christ saves us from evil.
I don't want to say this harshly, I just don't think there's a nicer way to say it, but God does not reward drug usage in this way, it is a gateway to the occult and it's counterfeit experiences. It is seeking an experience of the spiritual realm without submitting to the humility of simple and sincere prayers, it is an effort of self-will and the flesh, without purity of heart, and a form of witchcraft. This experience is not right, and there are very powerful and good feeling occultic experiences, you need to pray for discernment and repent.
@@Dizerner im gonna have to disagree with ya bud.
@@micahwatz1148 Big surprise there... shrooms don't exactly promote good judgment, heh.
@@micahwatz1148Theres never before been a biblical figure, church father or saint who has used drugs or mind altering substances and had visions of anything but demons in disguise. There is a very famous story of a hermit living in a cave in deep prayer and fasting. One day he looked up from deep prayer and saw Jesus Christ. He immediately fell to his face without making the sign of the cross and worshipped. However, the vision turned into a demon, who began to attack the monk. Only after making the sign of the cross and calling upon Christ was the demon expounded.
Again, there are many stories of monks who practice what is called hesychasm, a deep spiritual prayer. We say that it is actually dangerous to pray this way if you are unprepared because it is at these times when you are so close to the spiritual world that the demons attack all the more.
Strongly advise against any religiosity while on drugs. If these monks who spent their entire lives praying can be fooled by demons while they pray, certainly you can as well.