I think it's worth clarifying that a steep spiral can be an emergency descent, but not all emergency descents are steep spirals. I don't recall there being a specific emergency descent procedure in the POH for a C-172 K model, but in some aircraft there is a prescribed procedure. If the examiner asks for an emergency descent in an airplane that has one described in the POH, it would be appropriate to fly that procedure.
Good video, Jason, but I disagree that a steep spiral is the same as an emergency descent for a number of reasons: 1) The Commercial Pilot - Airplane PTS lists a Steep Spiral and an Emergency Descent as two different maneuvers, with different standards. 2) The Private Pilot - Airplane PTS Emergency Descent description is essentially the same as the Commercial PTS emergency descent description (except to less stringent standards), and is quite different from the Commercial Steep Spiral standards. 3) The Airplane Flying Handbook describes each maneuver in detail (p.8-25 for steep spiral; p.16-6 for emergency descent), and the descriptions do not match. Though in a "real world" emergency situation you will need to use elements from both of these maneuvers, for the purpose of the checkride they are separate maneuvers, entirely independent of one another.
What the C-17 can do is a "tactical descent". Spoilers extended, flaps extended, reverse thrust set and a rate of descent *easily* into the 10,000-20,000fpm range. Tactical descents are entirely different than steep spirals and emergency descents.
Thanks Jason - I was taught to do a steep spiral/emergency decent with full flaps and holding the airspeed just below Vfe..... that way you're already configured for landing and I think the descent rates are comparable. Thanks.
davet11 I think it's best to perform the 172 steep spiral to a landing without flaps. You may get fast so it's good to keep the flaps retracted to avoid exceed Vfe. The maneuver is intended to lead to an approach and landing. It's good to do things the same way every time. If the spiral leads to a pattern and landing, you can add the flaps in the same place you would normally, if not a little later on a tighter pattern than usual.
Huh? If the flaps are retracted why should you care about exceeding Vfe? The idea is to get down fast which I believe happens with full flaps and an airspeed close to Vfe. Only time I'd do a steep spiral without flaps would be if I'd an electrical problem (and couldn't extend flaps) or on fire and hoping that additional airspeed would be of help. Last thing I'd want to be doing at the end of a steep spiral is messing around with flaps/airspeed - I'll be in the landing configuration as soon as possible thank you very much.
Clarification: If the flaps are retracted you don't have to worry about exceeding Vfe because that restriction isn't present. I like the idea of adding flaps once you're in the pattern to keep procedures consistent.
Great skill demonstrated here. I do enjoy the books and video library, especially the personal stories you share. The tips have helped me a great deal. Cheers
Excellent video, and a great skill for every pilot. Tracy Reed is right, we can come down a lot faster, but this is geared towards Private. The commercial standard I was taught was to get the speed down to best glide for that amount of bank- around 75 and coordinated- then bring it down about 1500-1700 fpm. But, one must have an eagle eye on attitude and airspeed, and Jason, you are doing this for private standards, right? But the main things are attitude, position at 1000 agl (abeam the field for landing, ready to turn downwind), and close enough to do the power off 180 from that spot. All of which you covered beautifully. In Texas, every field is a landing field, but you still have to set it up properly. Very clear demonstration! (Hey Jason, I am almost to my CFIA! Thanks for all the support!)
This manoeuvre was developed by military to safely land planes in the war zone. Also commonly used by tow planes to quickly land to safe fuel. If it is part of an official training, it means USA is preparing pilots for more than just a civilian flights... In such small airplane you can get even faster using spin on the enge of the runway, recover straight into spiral and land (breaking 2000fpm at low speed).
Dennis Kitainik It is not as dangerous as you think it is. Try to climb up to 10000' on c152 and engage a 6 turns spin. Recover and check your altitude. To land you do not have to do 6 turns, 1 or 2 should be enough! It is just an exercise, try it, analyse it, practice it.
+Michael Ksiezopolski The only way I would consider the above in a true emergency is if my hair were on fire, but it might be fun to practice in a C150, or something else which is safe to spin. DPA
+daffidavit It is good to practice such manoeuvres and never be involved in such occurrence... And yes it is fun to practice circuits and emergencies. I do like it personally and I do it as often as I can.
I agree. Too many pilots are comfortable just flying straight and level, after they get their certificates. Repetition and practice at the fringes of the flight envelope at safe altitudes is what makes good pilots better.
I must say I am impressed by your videos and knowledge. I stumbled across them and have watched several of them. You are a great instructor. As an old flyer myself I wish I had guys like you around when I was learning. By the way would you use the spiral in an engine out situation? Not testing your knowledge just curious. Thanks for the great videos.
Brilliant flying, fantastic landing, great skills, couldn't wish to see more.Great idea to pull some Carby heat once or twice in the descent and a warm-up blast or two to clear the plugs. Anyone who has read: " Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K Gann, will remember that he too, had to do an identical Emergency Spiral approach, (and them some) due to a hydraulic malfunction in a C54/DC4 ,no less. He did not mention "pulling on some Carby heat" but it sure makes sense to do so.However, he did mention that the 4 mighty radials were "crackling and tinkling and cooling:' far below their prescribed limits, or cooling far too quickly.However, they opened up ok as he straightened her out and he did a text book landing, as did you..Well done
+RedDevilSquadron I thought that was funny as well as this guy looks like he just might be pushing his very early 30's. I'm betting he's still in his 20's though.
Jason... Sup buddy. Love your vids.. I fly out of KTTD.. Oregon Hey how important is it to stay coordinated in this steep spiral and also what airspeed should I aim for ? Chris Duvall
+Christopher Duvall I was wondering the same thing!! For such bank angle, the airspeed should be around 70+ kts, and you MUST keep it coordinate in order to avoid entering a spin! But I'd like to read Jason's thoughts on this!!
Led Santos actually stall speed is only higher in a bank if you want to hold altitude at the same time. If you descend in a steep spiral you are simply trimmed for best glide and you do not add back pressure. Therefore you still have 1 G and Stall Speed is not increased.
Jason: good tip I like most of your videos. What airspeed are you using in the steep spiral or are you just using 1000 feet per min. on the VSI as your reference? Of course you don't want to exceed a safe speed though. Thanks
I was taught to have a steeper angle of descent which would normally result in a high airspeed but also to pull some G's causing lots of drag from induced lift to get a greater rate of descent than 1000fpm with the idea being that you are on fire and need to get down ASAP. This gets you down faster which would be useful in a fire situation but you do have to be sure to arrest the rate of descent at the appropriate time.
+Tracy Reed I'm no instructor, but my understanding is: The steep spiral descent is for when you want to get down quickly and are over the target area you want to get down to. If you're on fire and just need to get to the ground quickly, I'd go for a standard emergency descent (basically an exaggerated slip) where you go carb heat on, throttle to idle, cram the rudder to the right, roll the plane to the left, and nose down, then nose up/down as appropriate to keep a sane airspeed. Those kind of emergency descents will net you 1500 to 2000 fpm easy, and should keep you from getting disoriented. You can even steer the plane during the descent, or add a bit of a spiral or S-turns to bleed off even more altitude.
+queuerayzy I agree with you on this to some degree. We all know there is a glide speed for each airplane, but Barry Schiff teaches that there is a slower speed, called the "minimum descent" speed which keeps you up in the air longer. He had an article on this in AOPA mag some years ago. The glide speed gives you maximum distance while "minimum descent" speed "keeps it up longer" so to speak. If there is no fire or other urgent need to get the plane down, why not try to "keep it up longer"? Just maybe, you can get the damn thing restarted. Carb ice, or contamination in the fuel lines can sometimes resolve so you don't have to put her down on a rough chunk of farm land that looked so smooth when you were much higher. JMHO DPA
I enjoyed the video, an especially the relaxed mood you presented. I was disappointed however that you made no mention of airspeeds throughout the maneuver. Important to me, as I have been given conflicting information on speeds to use.
Now you are glider flying Jason. I think most people, (let's say who are unfamiliar with flying) would be amazed and perhaps even shocked at how long it takes to descend when you need to get down fast. (That is, short of pointing the nose at the ground of course) Many people believe without power (just like in the movies) a plane comes screaming out of the sky like a rocket and crashes like so much scrap iron. Glider pilots have to learn how to manage energy and always hit the mark where they plan to land. Of course you could go around, maybe if you still have enough energy left but most of the time to land you have already bled off your speed and you will need to be on the mark or else be in the weeds or the dreaded off field landing which entails a lot of work to retrieve your bird. I am glad they are including emergency descents in the check ride now. Many never practice it and when the need arises they may panic which can be fatal. Thanks for another great example of things pilots should know and practice. This one could be a life saver.
That is so cool! Wish I`d have known and practiced that in my 10yr. 1600hr. tenure. Did 600 hrs in my RV-4. to end it (gas prices and income) I always landed from a high approach. Arnold Palmer (an experienced twin driver besides golfer) said "I never saw a short put go in". That`s what I`d tell the idiots, at the local strip, when they `d say I came in too high. (had to rant)
Years ago, Rick Geiger in Montana taught me to descend like this in my Maule at full flaps. IIRC, it dropped at close to 2,000 FPM. Does that sound about right? I will test this in my Aerotrek A220 (Kitfox clone) with and without Flaperons and report back.
Hey Jason, Mike from up north in Alberta, Canada. Just got my PPL this year and Im stoked to have it! My question: Do all flight instructors know about this maneuver? I'd like to take one up and learn it! Looks like a useful trick, and it'd be fun to learn at the same time! :) Thanks! (I'm always learning, does that make me a good pilot? LOL :) )
You banked it 60 degrees to start and then made comment that you were in a 30 degree bank. When did you make the reduction and why? What changed would you make in your steep spiral if there was a cross wind during the descent?
I had this thrown at me during my checkride. Unfortunately, I didn't do it to the examiner's expectation. The PTS doesn't actually say how to do it. Which is what my instructor and the FAA argued when I failed that part of the ride. So, how do you handle that? And what about different aircraft. The POH for the Cherokee does not have that in it.
+David Dyck The answer is maintain Va, you cannot afford to get too slow as the load factor raises the stalling speed. This makes Va the safest option. Remember Va change with weight.
Surprised you don't teach the "engine burst" as mandatory when practicing any forced scenarios. Here in Canada, you're graded by the examiner on doing so, and will lose marks if you don't. Temps get cold that you need to warm that engine.. We call it an "engine warm." Just doesn't get cold enough down there?
***** I see that he did it, but he did "to make sure the engine was still running," we do it to take care of the engine as it will cool at idle.. Mandatory for any engine idle practice scenario here in Canada. He looked like he was doing it 'just because.'
Which maneuver is more dangerous: Slip or spiral? It feels like spiral is more likely to result in a spin than a slip. Not criticizing you but I wonder why The FAA went this direction since spins on final are so common.
Hello! Thanks for watching! Both have a possibility of leading to a stalling situation if not done correctly. That is why it is important to practice both with a qualified instructor! A spiral is useful if you are over the point you want to land, so you are too high to perform a slip to come down. Thanks for your question! Please reach out to us at support@mzeroa.com if you need any further clarification!
Awesome video! You mentioned that a good idea would be to have the area you're circling underneath you're left main wheel. My question is, how would I determine that if im seating in the right seat as a CFI? From that angle I find it pretty hard to see anything under or near the left side.
Hi Luis! Depending on the airplane (if it is a high-wing or low-wing) you can use another reference point! Maybe a bolt on the strut or wing, for example. I hope this helps! Thanks for watching and fly safe!
What was your airspeed? Also, did you lean the mixture to avoid spark plug fouling idling that long? An occasional cockpit snapshot would make sense to see the instruments. Lastly, my CFI mentioned emergency descent and steep spiral as separate maneuvers - the former is to get down as fast as possible at high airspeed but turns don't have to be that steep (30-45 deg), while the latter is more about high bank angle of 50-60 degrees, but airspeed should be more like best glide speed. Can you comment on these points please..?
Not saying this is universal or what he uses, but I know a lot of 172 pilots use around 90. Also, as long as your airspeed is good and you’re staying coordinated you shouldn’t have to worry about spinning. Now granted, under increased load factor (pulling excessive G’s) you can cause the airplane to stall at a higher airspeed (accelerated stall). But in my opinion you have to be putting some over excessive back pressure and load factor on the wings for that to happen. All a spin is, is a stall aggravated with yaw. So basically an uncoordinated stall. That’s why when practicing them, you bring the airplane to a stall, then kick in full rudder in one direction (causing incoordination). So as long as airspeed is good and you’re coordinated you should not spin👍🏻
FoxHotel Lima The point of the spiral is that you're already above your landing spot and have committed to it. Say you lose an engine and there's a perfect area of flat land / low grass in close vicinity. A spiral will let you keep that area in sight while analyzing the best way to perform your emergency landing on it. Of course side slips are effective to descend quickly, you can easily get 1000+ fpm with a side slip. In an emergency you might even deploy a side slip after doing the spirals if you have the intended touchdown point in front of you but you're still a bit too high (in that case you must put the airplane down), so you'd slip it to make the landing.
Hey Jason, it was a pleasure meeting you and your team at Oshkosh! One thing I am not totally clear on is at such a steep angle (60 degrees!), what is preventing a spin? Being coordinated with the rudder does the trick? With my CFI we did 45 degree steep turns, but not spiraling in like this... Thanks!
hchattaway A spin can never happen if the wing (one wing specifically) is never stalled. Bank angle is irrelevant with regards to a stall. You can stall at 0 degrees bank or 90 degrees bank, conversely you can keep the wing from stalling at any bank angle. Remember, angle of attack (AoA) is the critical angle, not bank angle. Keep the AoA at less than the stall A0A and you're fine no matter what your airspeed or bank angle is.
DJ Vegh Thanks for the reply! I understand what you are saying.... would it be true that if they used inside rudder which would spin the tail around and stall the inside wing, that would then create a stall condition that would initiate a spin? Thanks!
I wouldn't go along with that. Steep spiral decants block your visibility. A 172 will descend at a very high vertical decent anyway. Why not hang some flap flaps out.
Hey Robin! Thanks for watching! You bring up a good point, It may not be helpful in every situation, but it can be helpful to lose altitude in a controlled manner from high altitude. The big benefit of Steep spirals is that you are staying over the point you want to land on, so if you need to lose a lot of altitude but you want to stay over the point you're aiming at, this is a great tool to have in your tool box. Which is why commercial pilot's are expected to perform this to ACS standards.
When you were spiraling down did you have a tendency to pull back on the stick and give FULL right rudder? CFIs on UA-cam say that everyone has a natural tendency to do that. The end result is a stall/spin at low altitude. I don't understand their reasoning.
Hi Michael! It is a natural tendency because the ground is coming closer and you instinctively want to pull up. This is why it is important to remember your training. I hope this helps! Thanks for watching!
@@MzeroAFlightTraining I realize that, but when you're in the pattern coming in for a landing you WANT the ground to come closer. You've TRAINED to make it come closer. So when the ground gets closer during landing, why does this surprise pilots? Are they not trying to make the ground come closer? Do they just draw a blank and forget what they are doing?
Can one perform this maneuver with a dead engine and no instruments. So your private plane was hit by a really strong lightning strike and you're at 3,000'?
What's your recommendation on airspeed for a 172RG? I've searched for flap setting recommendations for emergency decent (w/o structural damage) and most say extend gear but leave out flaps and let the Vfe be your speed limit. Since the 172RG has a Vfe of 162, Vlo of 138, and Vno 142, I'm thinking 60 degree bank with Vlo would be wise choice if gear is extended while entering the descent. Please advise.
Hey Stephen, there is actually some guidance in the POH for an emergency descent in the Cutlass. It's listed under "Emergency Descent through Clouds". Personally I would follow that maneuver. In general in calls for extending the gear and setting the power to maintain 500-800 ft per min descent, trimmed out at 80 knots. For me, if space was an issue I would consider extending some flap but that would depend on the situation you are in. I most certainly would not be putting the aircraft into a steep bank at a high speed. That is a recipe for disaster. There is way to much that can get out of hand very quickly. Hope this helps.
no flap,no trim,no constant power to keep pots warm, too fast. should be zero pole pressure. fold your arms and enjoy the ride. did one a couple weeks ago in c180.
Love how the plastic cover plate over the instruments is flopping loosely like it is about to fall off just like every Cessna ever.
Tower is probably happier if you call it a "steep spiral," instead of an "emergency descent." They'd probably have more questions for you.
I think it's worth clarifying that a steep spiral can be an emergency descent, but not all emergency descents are steep spirals. I don't recall there being a specific emergency descent procedure in the POH for a C-172 K model, but in some aircraft there is a prescribed procedure. If the examiner asks for an emergency descent in an airplane that has one described in the POH, it would be appropriate to fly that procedure.
Can't wait to do some of these in the next few days, on the last leg of my commercial, your videos have helped me through the whole journey.
this video was so awesome. Im a student pilot in john wayne airport, California and I was even a little nervous just watching this....
that was a thing of beauty....smooth
Good video, Jason, but I disagree that a steep spiral is the same as an emergency descent for a number of reasons:
1) The Commercial Pilot - Airplane PTS lists a Steep Spiral and an Emergency Descent as two different maneuvers, with different standards.
2) The Private Pilot - Airplane PTS Emergency Descent description is essentially the same as the Commercial PTS emergency descent description (except to less stringent standards), and is quite different from the Commercial Steep Spiral standards.
3) The Airplane Flying Handbook describes each maneuver in detail (p.8-25 for steep spiral; p.16-6 for emergency descent), and the descriptions do not match.
Though in a "real world" emergency situation you will need to use elements from both of these maneuvers, for the purpose of the checkride they are separate maneuvers, entirely independent of one another.
Conor Dancy And what then is a "tactical descent"?
What the C-17 can do is a "tactical descent". Spoilers extended, flaps extended, reverse thrust set and a rate of descent *easily* into the 10,000-20,000fpm range. Tactical descents are entirely different than steep spirals and emergency descents.
ACS says
CA. V.B.S3 "not to exceed 60 degree angle of bank"
CA. V.B.S4 "bank not to exceed 60 degrees at steepest point in turn"
@@ThatWasLoud So they are basically the same but with different overarching terms?
Loved the video...wish there was a ground based camera as well...had to be a interesting sight from the ground.
Ditto. Would have been a nice observation
Be cool if he would've set up a time lapse for it before they went up😁
Thanks Jason - I was taught to do a steep spiral/emergency decent with full flaps and holding the airspeed just below Vfe..... that way you're already configured for landing and I think the descent rates are comparable. Thanks.
davet11 I think it's best to perform the 172 steep spiral to a landing without flaps. You may get fast so it's good to keep the flaps retracted to avoid exceed Vfe. The maneuver is intended to lead to an approach and landing. It's good to do things the same way every time. If the spiral leads to a pattern and landing, you can add the flaps in the same place you would normally, if not a little later on a tighter pattern than usual.
Huh? If the flaps are retracted why should you care about exceeding Vfe? The idea is to get down fast which I believe happens with full flaps and an airspeed close to Vfe. Only time I'd do a steep spiral without flaps would be if I'd an electrical problem (and couldn't extend flaps) or on fire and hoping that additional airspeed would be of help. Last thing I'd want to be doing at the end of a steep spiral is messing around with flaps/airspeed - I'll be in the landing configuration as soon as possible thank you very much.
Clarification: If the flaps are retracted you don't have to worry about exceeding Vfe because that restriction isn't present. I like the idea of adding flaps once you're in the pattern to keep procedures consistent.
Man your awesome, i'm a beginner Pilot and I appreciate your work.
Great skill demonstrated here. I do enjoy the books and video library, especially the personal stories you share. The tips have helped me a great deal. Cheers
Awesome, thank you!
Way to go Jason! You keep pulling some good stuff out of the bag. Always interested in your next video. Chuck🛫🛬
Thanks so much!
Outstanding presentation. Just like "High key" and "Low key" in Naval Flight Training at PNS.
Thanks for watching, Ed! Fly safe!
Excellent video, and a great skill for every pilot. Tracy Reed is right, we can come down a lot faster, but this is geared towards Private. The commercial standard I was taught was to get the speed down to best glide for that amount of bank- around 75 and coordinated- then bring it down about 1500-1700 fpm. But, one must have an eagle eye on attitude and airspeed, and Jason, you are doing this for private standards, right? But the main things are attitude, position at 1000 agl (abeam the field for landing, ready to turn downwind), and close enough to do the power off 180 from that spot. All of which you covered beautifully. In Texas, every field is a landing field, but you still have to set it up properly. Very clear demonstration! (Hey Jason, I am almost to my CFIA! Thanks for all the support!)
This manoeuvre was developed by military to safely land planes in the war zone. Also commonly used by tow planes to quickly land to safe fuel. If it is part of an official training, it means USA is preparing pilots for more than just a civilian flights...
In such small airplane you can get even faster using spin on the enge of the runway, recover straight into spiral and land (breaking 2000fpm at low speed).
Michael Ksiezopolski A spin at low altitude would be too dangerous.
Dennis Kitainik It is not as dangerous as you think it is. Try to climb up to 10000' on c152 and engage a 6 turns spin. Recover and check your altitude. To land you do not have to do 6 turns, 1 or 2 should be enough! It is just an exercise, try it, analyse it, practice it.
+Michael Ksiezopolski The only way I would consider the above in a true emergency is if my hair were on fire, but it might be fun to practice in a C150, or something else which is safe to spin. DPA
+daffidavit It is good to practice such manoeuvres and never be involved in such occurrence...
And yes it is fun to practice circuits and emergencies. I do like it personally and I do it as often as I can.
I agree. Too many pilots are comfortable just flying straight and level, after they get their certificates. Repetition and practice at the fringes of the flight envelope at safe altitudes is what makes good pilots better.
I remember that from my commercial check ride and training.
Got the first view again hah! On a roll here!
Was great to meet you at #OSH15 buddy!
Well you just made a three pointer landing. I was stopped from doing that by my instructor yet thats when I get the smoothest landing.
could you do more commercial maneuvers?
Ocala is a great airport to fly into tower is always friendly and the restaurant has some good food.
Jason, what was your airspeed during the steep spiral (60 deg bank angle)
It's usually done between 95 and 100 Kts
Awesome video just started my commercial maneuvers thank you
Awesome video Jason! I am wondering if you trimmed the aircraft once you cut the power or were you just fighting the yoke? Thanks.
I must say I am impressed by your videos and knowledge. I stumbled across them and have watched several of them. You are a great instructor. As an old flyer myself I wish I had guys like you around when I was learning. By the way would you use the spiral in an engine out situation? Not testing your knowledge just curious. Thanks for the great videos.
Brilliant, done with confidence, nice one.
Brilliant flying, fantastic landing, great skills, couldn't wish to see more.Great idea to pull some Carby heat once or twice in the descent and a warm-up blast or two to clear the plugs. Anyone who has read: " Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K Gann, will remember that he too, had to do an identical Emergency Spiral approach, (and them some) due to a hydraulic malfunction in a C54/DC4 ,no less. He did not mention "pulling on some Carby heat" but it sure makes sense to do so.However, he did mention that the 4 mighty radials were "crackling and tinkling and cooling:' far below their prescribed limits, or cooling far too quickly.However, they opened up ok as he straightened her out and he did a text book landing, as did you..Well done
Thanks for sharing, Mark! Fly safe!
LOL. "Many years ago"...
+RedDevilSquadron I thought that was funny as well as this guy looks like he just might be pushing his very early 30's. I'm betting he's still in his 20's though.
Just practiced this yesterday with my CFI . Great video
Nice work! Thanks for watching!
Jason... Sup buddy. Love your vids.. I fly out of KTTD.. Oregon
Hey how important is it to stay coordinated in this steep spiral and also what airspeed should I aim for ?
Chris Duvall
+Christopher Duvall I was wondering the same thing!! For such bank angle, the airspeed should be around 70+ kts, and you MUST keep it coordinate in order to avoid entering a spin! But I'd like to read Jason's thoughts on this!!
Led Santos actually stall speed is only higher in a bank if you want to hold altitude at the same time. If you descend in a steep spiral you are simply trimmed for best glide and you do not add back pressure. Therefore you still have 1 G and Stall Speed is not increased.
Florian Rhyn That’s correct. Bank angle alone doesn’t determine stall speed.
Awsome lesson. However, how about the forward slip at an extended leg for final?
Jason: good tip I like most of your videos. What airspeed are you using in the steep spiral or are you just using 1000 feet per min. on the VSI as your reference? Of course you don't want to exceed a safe speed though. Thanks
After learning in mastering spins you can get down a lot faster. If you practice them enough you could actually recover your spin in the downwind.
Great video, I really like it!
The student looks like Tim Conway. This clip has the quality of a nice comedy skit. But it is a good training material. Thanks!!
Thanks for watching!
I was taught to have a steeper angle of descent which would normally result in a high airspeed but also to pull some G's causing lots of drag from induced lift to get a greater rate of descent than 1000fpm with the idea being that you are on fire and need to get down ASAP. This gets you down faster which would be useful in a fire situation but you do have to be sure to arrest the rate of descent at the appropriate time.
+Tracy Reed I'm no instructor, but my understanding is: The steep spiral descent is for when you want to get down quickly and are over the target area you want to get down to. If you're on fire and just need to get to the ground quickly, I'd go for a standard emergency descent (basically an exaggerated slip) where you go carb heat on, throttle to idle, cram the rudder to the right, roll the plane to the left, and nose down, then nose up/down as appropriate to keep a sane airspeed. Those kind of emergency descents will net you 1500 to 2000 fpm easy, and should keep you from getting disoriented. You can even steer the plane during the descent, or add a bit of a spiral or S-turns to bleed off even more altitude.
+queuerayzy I agree with you on this to some degree. We all know there is a glide speed for each airplane, but Barry Schiff teaches that there is a slower speed, called the "minimum descent" speed which keeps you up in the air longer. He had an article on this in AOPA mag some years ago. The glide speed gives you maximum distance while "minimum descent" speed "keeps it up longer" so to speak. If there is no fire or other urgent need to get the plane down, why not try to "keep it up longer"? Just maybe, you can get the damn thing restarted. Carb ice, or contamination in the fuel lines can sometimes resolve so you don't have to put her down on a rough chunk of farm land that looked so smooth when you were much higher. JMHO DPA
I enjoyed the video, an especially the relaxed mood you presented. I was disappointed however that you made no mention of airspeeds throughout the maneuver. Important to me, as I have been given conflicting information on speeds to use.
I am starting my journey and apriaciate your videos thank you.👍
The ACS says you have to keep a constant radius from your point and not to exceed a 60 degree bank and have to do 3 turns and recover 1500ft AGL.
Cool. Never did this before. Spin's, spirals, side slips, engine failures, step turns. Interesting
Now you are glider flying Jason. I think most people, (let's say who are unfamiliar with flying) would be amazed and perhaps even shocked at how long it takes to descend when you need to get down fast. (That is, short of pointing the nose at the ground of course) Many people believe without power (just like in the movies) a plane comes screaming out of the sky like a rocket and crashes like so much scrap iron. Glider pilots have to learn how to manage energy and always hit the mark where they plan to land. Of course you could go around, maybe if you still have enough energy left but most of the time to land you have already bled off your speed and you will need to be on the mark or else be in the weeds or the dreaded off field landing which entails a lot of work to retrieve your bird. I am glad they are including emergency descents in the check ride now. Many never practice it and when the need arises they may panic which can be fatal. Thanks for another great example of things pilots should know and practice. This one could be a life saver.
Gonna go out and try the steep spiral this weekend. just got my grades back up and I am un-grounded for the weekend and the wx looks good.. ha...
Mr. Jason!
How are you my good friend!
Love Your Detail explanation!!! Love watching these and I know Im struggling with my Commerial Maneuvers :(
real vague...
Excellent! Yet again
Thanks!
Awesome video!! Love it!
Radio stations are looking for people that can gas on non stop like this dude. I'm off to make myself a Panadol sandwich.
I like the slip for loosing altitude, but the spiral is cool to, done that many times. All depends on altitude.
That is so cool! Wish I`d have known and practiced that in my 10yr. 1600hr. tenure. Did 600 hrs in my RV-4. to end it (gas prices and income) I always landed from a high approach. Arnold Palmer (an experienced twin driver besides golfer) said "I never saw a short put go in". That`s what I`d tell the idiots, at the local strip, when they `d say I came in too high. (had to rant)
Chapter 9 Performance Maneuvers recommends full throttle for a few seconds during the spiral to prevent excessive engine cooling.
Yes - typically the throttle is recycled idle to full and back to idle once every 360 when facing into the headwind. Hope that helps!
Awesome video.
Thanks!
Awesome. I’m practicing this tomorrow!
Hey Jason. Would you recommend this technique for a spot landing competition?
Years ago, Rick Geiger in Montana taught me to descend like this in my Maule at full flaps. IIRC, it dropped at close to 2,000 FPM. Does that sound about right?
I will test this in my Aerotrek A220 (Kitfox clone) with and without Flaperons and report back.
Hey Jason, Mike from up north in Alberta, Canada. Just got my PPL this year and Im stoked to have it!
My question: Do all flight instructors know about this maneuver? I'd like to take one up and learn it! Looks like a useful trick, and it'd be fun to learn at the same time! :)
Thanks!
(I'm always learning, does that make me a good pilot? LOL :) )
You banked it 60 degrees to start and then made comment that you were in a 30 degree bank. When did you make the reduction and why? What changed would you make in your steep spiral if there was a cross wind during the descent?
Nice. About to practice this very thing. Thanks
I had this thrown at me during my checkride. Unfortunately, I didn't do it to the examiner's expectation. The PTS doesn't actually say how to do it. Which is what my instructor and the FAA argued when I failed that part of the ride. So, how do you handle that? And what about different aircraft. The POH for the Cherokee does not have that in it.
woundering i'm up for a review are you able to do it for me with your courses?
That wasn't even 45 degrees.
what was your airspeed during that 60 degree spiral? It was never mentioned in the video.
Oliver Nielsen I'd like to know this also.
+Oliver Nielsen That's what I was going to ask!
+David Dyck The answer is maintain Va, you cannot afford to get too slow as the load factor raises the stalling speed. This makes Va the safest option. Remember Va change with weight.
+Oliver Nielsen Around 80knts
+Dan K Load factor is
On the commercial test, does the examiner usually link the steep spiral to the power off 180? seems like the way you did it makes sense.
What airspeed did you maintain? BTW a good aerobatic pilot could easily spun it in.
What airspeed should i keep through out the maneuver? Thanks
I am having an issue with keeping my point during a steep spiral. What is the best way to correct that?
Surprised you don't teach the "engine burst" as mandatory when practicing any forced scenarios. Here in Canada, you're graded by the examiner on doing so, and will lose marks if you don't. Temps get cold that you need to warm that engine.. We call it an "engine warm." Just doesn't get cold enough down there?
***** I see that he did it, but he did "to make sure the engine was still running," we do it to take care of the engine as it will cool at idle.. Mandatory for any engine idle practice scenario here in Canada. He looked like he was doing it 'just because.'
+Travis McCurdy exactly. We were trained to do them every 500 feet, and you'd fail your forced approach if you missed them.
+Abhay Mahajan Yeah i was trained to do them every thousand feet. And every 500 feet if it's winter or really cold out.
I agree, preventing engine shock cooling during a power off descent should be 2nd nature
+Travis McCurdy Check out 3:28, and 5:02.
Which maneuver is more dangerous: Slip or spiral? It feels like spiral is more likely to result in a spin than a slip. Not criticizing you but I wonder why The FAA went this direction since spins on final are so common.
Hello! Thanks for watching! Both have a possibility of leading to a stalling situation if not done correctly. That is why it is important to practice both with a qualified instructor! A spiral is useful if you are over the point you want to land, so you are too high to perform a slip to come down. Thanks for your question! Please reach out to us at support@mzeroa.com if you need any further clarification!
I wonder if it is possible to perform this kind of maneuver when instrument flight is required given the weather condition?
Awesome video! You mentioned that a good idea would be to have the area you're circling underneath you're left main wheel. My question is, how would I determine that if im seating in the right seat as a CFI? From that angle I find it pretty hard to see anything under or near the left side.
Hi Luis! Depending on the airplane (if it is a high-wing or low-wing) you can use another reference point! Maybe a bolt on the strut or wing, for example. I hope this helps! Thanks for watching and fly safe!
What was your airspeed? Also, did you lean the mixture to avoid spark plug fouling idling that long?
An occasional cockpit snapshot would make sense to see the instruments.
Lastly, my CFI mentioned emergency descent and steep spiral as separate maneuvers - the former is to get down as fast as possible at high airspeed but turns don't have to be that steep (30-45 deg), while the latter is more about high bank angle of 50-60 degrees, but airspeed should be more like best glide speed. Can you comment on these points please..?
What's the difference between the emergency descent/ steep spiral landing and the Sarajevo/ combat landing?
What was your speed while descending? How to avoid spinning?
Not saying this is universal or what he uses, but I know a lot of 172 pilots use around 90. Also, as long as your airspeed is good and you’re staying coordinated you shouldn’t have to worry about spinning. Now granted, under increased load factor (pulling excessive G’s) you can cause the airplane to stall at a higher airspeed (accelerated stall). But in my opinion you have to be putting some over excessive back pressure and load factor on the wings for that to happen. All a spin is, is a stall aggravated with yaw. So basically an uncoordinated stall. That’s why when practicing them, you bring the airplane to a stall, then kick in full rudder in one direction (causing incoordination). So as long as airspeed is good and you’re coordinated you should not spin👍🏻
@@seankitchens1045 Thank you, sir..
Nice video Jason. Just a question, do you think side slip would be as efficient to descent quickly? Thanks
***** Thats another way to do it aswell, what I meant was flying cross controlled, bank with aileron and opposite rudder
FoxHotel Lima The point of the spiral is that you're already above your landing spot and have committed to it. Say you lose an engine and there's a perfect area of flat land / low grass in close vicinity. A spiral will let you keep that area in sight while analyzing the best way to perform your emergency landing on it. Of course side slips are effective to descend quickly, you can easily get 1000+ fpm with a side slip. In an emergency you might even deploy a side slip after doing the spirals if you have the intended touchdown point in front of you but you're still a bit too high (in that case you must put the airplane down), so you'd slip it to make the landing.
Fantastic video, thank you!
Glad you liked it! Thank you for watching!
Nice trick Jason. Do you have more of that to share?
I can understand not wanting to give inexperienced private pilots or students the notion of doing true emergency descents. Soooo.......great video :)
Hey Jason, it was a pleasure meeting you and your team at Oshkosh!
One thing I am not totally clear on is at such a steep angle (60 degrees!), what is preventing a spin? Being coordinated with the rudder does the trick? With my CFI we did 45 degree steep turns, but not spiraling in like this...
Thanks!
hchattaway A spin can never happen if the wing (one wing specifically) is never stalled. Bank angle is irrelevant with regards to a stall. You can stall at 0 degrees bank or 90 degrees bank, conversely you can keep the wing from stalling at any bank angle. Remember, angle of attack (AoA) is the critical angle, not bank angle. Keep the AoA at less than the stall A0A and you're fine no matter what your airspeed or bank angle is.
DJ Vegh Thanks for the reply! I understand what you are saying.... would it be true that if they used inside rudder which would spin the tail around and stall the inside wing, that would then create a stall condition that would initiate a spin?
Thanks!
Sorry if I missed it - what's the airspeed during these turns? Thanks!
Great job. I love your video's. Very helpfull.
Wow that’s cool, I will be asking my instructor to do this with me!
Excellent! I'm sure it'll be a great experience!
Jason did u land with flaps 10 only..??
Anderson Danice looks like a 30
Good Show!!
I wouldn't go along with that. Steep spiral decants block your visibility. A 172 will descend at a very high vertical decent anyway. Why not hang some flap flaps out.
Hey Robin! Thanks for watching!
You bring up a good point, It may not be helpful in every situation, but it can be helpful to lose altitude in a controlled manner from high altitude. The big benefit of Steep spirals is that you are staying over the point you want to land on, so if you need to lose a lot of altitude but you want to stay over the point you're aiming at, this is a great tool to have in your tool box. Which is why commercial pilot's are expected to perform this to ACS standards.
If he’s trying to do a maximum descent, why would he not extend his flaps initially?
Good job.
Enjoyed your video and subbed your channel, thanks!
When you were spiraling down did you have a tendency to pull back on the stick and give FULL right rudder? CFIs on UA-cam say that everyone has a natural tendency to do that. The end result is a stall/spin at low altitude. I don't understand their reasoning.
Hi Michael! It is a natural tendency because the ground is coming closer and you instinctively want to pull up. This is why it is important to remember your training. I hope this helps! Thanks for watching!
@@MzeroAFlightTraining I realize that, but when you're in the pattern coming in for a landing you WANT the ground to come closer. You've TRAINED to make it come closer. So when the ground gets closer during landing, why does this surprise pilots? Are they not trying to make the ground come closer? Do they just draw a blank and forget what they are doing?
I just love your videos
Hey Jason! My instructor taught me full flap emergency descent... Staying below vfe ofcourse . What are your thoughts on full flap descents?
They're needed in turbulent air. Even Vno is not the best idea with MOD to SEV turbulence. You will still drop relatively quickly.
do you pull the yoke as soon as you bank 60?
Specific airspeed?? Just at or below Va?
Can one perform this maneuver with a dead engine and no instruments. So your private plane was hit by a really strong lightning strike and you're at 3,000'?
VFR you sure can. IFR you better be good with flying by just the compass knowing precept and not get out of control while doing it.
Excellent
Cool video guys thanks.
My training 40 years ago was full flap for emergency descent. Is that no longer taught?
Full flap at just above stall speed will put you into a stall no shacker,, quarter to a haft and don! stall..
Very nice.
What's your recommendation on airspeed for a 172RG? I've searched for flap setting recommendations for emergency decent (w/o structural damage) and most say extend gear but leave out flaps and let the Vfe be your speed limit. Since the 172RG has a Vfe of 162, Vlo of 138, and Vno 142, I'm thinking 60 degree bank with Vlo would be wise choice if gear is extended while entering the descent.
Please advise.
Hey Stephen, there is actually some guidance in the POH for an emergency descent in the Cutlass. It's listed under "Emergency Descent through Clouds". Personally I would follow that maneuver. In general in calls for extending the gear and setting the power to maintain 500-800 ft per min descent, trimmed out at 80 knots. For me, if space was an issue I would consider extending some flap but that would depend on the situation you are in.
I most certainly would not be putting the aircraft into a steep bank at a high speed. That is a recipe for disaster. There is way to much that can get out of hand very quickly.
Hope this helps.
The main question was the use of flaps. Thanks for the time!
Excellent!
Many thanks!
Killed it!!!
no flap,no trim,no constant power to keep pots warm, too fast. should be zero pole pressure. fold your arms and enjoy the ride.
did one a couple weeks ago in c180.
Can we fly with you if we come to Ocala? Would love to fly and learn something new from you.
This is kinda off topic, I'm just curious? What camera mount do you use on your wings?