Machine the seal retainer to match the line bore, also a trick I learned from Hemi Hanes is use high temp silicone (orange) on retainer. (seal cap/retainer) before putting seal in place..
Hi Nick and crew.. My wife and I are going on a vacation next month the week of Thanksgiving.. Yes Nick I'm putting my beautiful wife back on the beach 🏖️🏖️... I'm driving to Gulf Shores Alabama right on the Beach .. It's so nice to get away from the HUSLE of everyday.. Nick have a great rest of the week and keep putting the POWER back on the road and making your customers HAPPY ... Hi George Manny Niko Dr Robert keep smiling 😊 all... FROM YOUR FRIEND THE BANDIT AKA BOB from Illinois!!!!!!
How about comparing these measurements. 383 oil pan to rear main split. 383 rear main split to bearing surface. 383 rear main split to seal groove. Then, the same measurements from the 400. Thinking out loud, the seal is crushed into the block and crushed into the cap as well. It's only thousandths or even tenths, but is it enough to make a difference? Lightening bolt. Lots of work, but. Get the motor back together. Set it up so you can circulate hot water through it. Pump oil through it at 60 PSI or so watch the transmission end for leaks. May take hours to appear. Obviously, the motor is on the floor. Bill Jenkins would heat his blocks for the final hone finish. I'll bet there is a crack, and the heat is the instigator.
Thanks goodness my Challenger’s 383 doesn’t have this leak. Upside for me is I get a phenomenal tutorial and a great reference video I can use anytime. Thanks Nick 😊
Fleet truck I maintained years back , one rear wheel seal would leak if it had a neoprene seal . Rawhide seal was good , never leak , but the part number for it would never show up in any search . Even factory reps said it didn't exist, but if you ordered it by number it would come in
In an effort to think out of the box, two cycle engines are often tested by using a pressure test. I wonder if a similar test could be adapted to an engine with a problem oil leak by pressurizing the crankcase slightly and using soapy water to look for bubbles which would show where a leak exists. Of course such a test would have to be done before disassembly and block off plates would have to be made for the exhaust and intake manifolds. Crankcase pressure for testing wouldn't need to be very high, perhaps up to 6 PSI for testing.
Deepest respect to Nick, as the level of difficulty and complexity ramp up, his level of passion and expertise always runs one step ahead as he works through a series of solutions . When an errant motor finally "throws its toys out the pram" , he remains patient and determined to get back on top. This level of passion and attention to detail is difficult to find, in any topic nowadays. Gen X, gen Y and gen z, pay attention, there are great lessons to be learned here, not just automotive.
If you measure the crank off the front timing chain cover in relation to the seal for the harmonic balancer you should see if the crank is not in it’s correct position.
No master reduces valve lash on a solid lifter cam until it sounds the way he thinks it should sound they follow the manufactures specs, I called Nick out on this in another video, and he told me he did it all the time and it was just fine, no it is not, and one of the 440's he rebuilt had a noisy rocker arm and he replaced it with an old used one he had in a drawer, I use new ones when I rebuild an engine for myself as does anyone else I know that rebuilds an engine and calls it new and if he is replacing the crankshaft in this engine why would you turn it down .020 if it's good instead of just replacing the bearings with standard size bearings. Yes, Nick knows a lot and builds nice cars, but some of the things he does defy logic. @@Steeledawg
@@SteeledawgJim's automotive machine shop could figure this out . He and his son run a engine machine shop that does all kinds of machining services to all kids of different engines including full on engine builds be it stock to full race engines so look for them on UA-cam here because they have a boat load of videos showing the machining process and set up required to do the machining . They just built a Chevrolet small block 383 stroker and the crank shaft that had been ordered was all out of spec and they had to do some machining on it to get it back in spec to move forward with the engine build and finish the job . They do everything from fixing cracked cylinders and cylinder sleeves to cracked head repair and valve guide and cracked valve seat repaires as well as bolt extraction and broken off bolts and stripped thread repairs all kinds of things from all kinds of different engines from diesel tractor engines and antique engines of all kinds so take a look at some of the videos because it's very interesting to watch what they do to fix engines that most would say it's junk and should be scrapped to fixing them to factory specs again to be used again in most cases unless the previous machine shop screwed up on machining big time.
If you line bore you need to up the outer diameter of the bearing to compensate. Simple way to confirm/reject this is if you are using different bearings or not. If they are stock or standard bearings then yeah you will move the crank closer to the journal... if its not standard then the crank is still exactly where it was before and the seal doesn't change and so on...
Hats off to all of those who work hard at their jobs every day to make other people's lives better! Nick and George (and his supporting mechanic friends) all set great examples. ...that includes you too Melissa as I am sure you wear many hats and always show your hard work as well. Best UA-cam channel for Peace, Love, & Muscle Cars (and inspiration too!)
That’s the worst part of working on old motors, not knowing who’s touched it before you and why, and did they have any business touching it in the first place. Thank god there’s still guys like Nick who still have the knowledge and patience to fix motors like this 👍
Nick said he had it rebuilt so it had to have been done before he did it and like he said what they did is they put new main caps on it or they welded them in and then recut them to "spec size" but whoever did it didn't measure how high they were cutting so instead of cutting it at the height it should have been cut they cut it higher so that makes the crank sit higher in the motor and 5,000 of an inch I don't know if you would detect that with your eye that's pretty small measurement but it's enough that on a stock rear oil seal it causes all the pressure to be put on one side of the seal allowing the other side to wick oil through it
@@nickpanaritis4122 I'm assuming you guys also checked depth on the sides of the seal groove? It's possible the align hone was offset sideways, or even at a slight angle.
Vintage jag specialists have great idea,with rope seals 😂they use a cone shaped mandrel which is pushed in by hand and rotated . As the cone goes in it has a part which is almost rhe size if the crank journal. This shapes rhe rope to right size . It takes a while to seat the rope this way,but they never leak. And old jags,that really is something.
In the video you see engine oil sitting in the rear main seal groove in the block after the crank was removed . .005 thousands doesnt sound like alot , but the rear main has to be in the exact position as Nick has clearly shown in this video . I would suggest to measure the rear main seal block groove to main saddle machined surface , note the difference , then check the 400 block and compare the two . In any case , the rope seal should resolve the issue once and for all . Note the 400 rope seal In the block and how its a nice wide flat seal surface .
I've never played with a Mopar engine, but I have done industrial machinery R&R. To check the line bore/rear seal issue, I'd obtain a STRAIGHT piece of turned, ground & polished (TGP) round stock the same diameter as the main journals, and about 6in longer than the block. Clamp it in the mains and slide that rear seal block on and see if there's any alignment issues.
Here is one for Nick. I bought a 1971 Dodge pickup from a local farmer. The Cam gear had gone bad. After putting a new timing chain and gears in the 318 LA motor, I noticed that the thrust bearing was shot. This allowed the crankshaft to move back and forth while the engine was running. I towed a race car with the truck for a year not to mention many loads of firewood. Never did the rear main seal or the front timing cover seal leak. Freeze plugs were another story though. LOL I kept a good alternator/water pump belt on that engine, and I believe it kept the crankshaft from moving too much. It never threw a belt.
I once saw a leak coming from a pinhole size void at the back of the engine as a flaw in sand casting the block. The leak was above the crank somewhere around the cam and it would leak and look like it was coming from the rear main which was rope back in that day. It wasn't in a Mopar as I recall.
Over the years with rope seals building engines i always used to work silicone into the rope seal with rubber gloves on . Slowly rub it in before putting the crank in and yes offset the seal to the crank journal then torque down the crank and rotate..Hope this info helps cheers
Don't know if you will see this, but you can buy synthetic one way seals in rope form. The seal has a surface on it you install one direction and it wipes oil constantly back into the engine. I personally bought a box of it, its very expensive, but I put it in a oldsmobile rocket 371 that had to be line bored. Same situation, it leaked and leaked and leaked despite everything. When we pulled out the two piece seal and put in the synthetic wiper seal, it stopped leaking and 20 years later, still dry.
Always great thought provoking challenges that Nick seems to show his mastery at solving. My thoughts are the retainer is the problem. If there is no clearance with seal retainer and the rear bearing to allow oil drainage drainage, the oil pressure could force oil past the seal. It looked like the seal retainer was tilted out with the initial tear down a while back. In the end the rope seal ought to fix the leak?
How do you not bend a valve turning the motor over without the cam moving? Cant you just use a different bearing when u put a standard crank in the block instead of cutting material off the mains and rods on the crank bearing
Old school, Get a rope. worked on a 1955 Buick Nail Head. back in the 70dys they had this kit for the rope seal, it was called a sneaky Pet it worked. was able to get the old one out and put the new one in with that tool. I don't even know if they still make them or not. Thanks Nick ,you Rock
That 1970 Roadrunner convertible would be my dream car. Doesn't have to be convertible but a 1970 Roadrunner is the best of the best in my opinion. 1970 was the Pinnacle of muscle car production
There was a story in my household that my father told me that when he was a boy my grandfather was moving our family from Missouri to Michigan this would have been in the early 1930s the four-cylinder Model A Ford that they were driving spun a rod bearing my grandfather being the genius man that he was cut a piece of leather belt soaked in oil and used it for the bearing that they spun.. it got them the last hundred and fifty miles with no issues so your rope seal idea might be the key it will swell up probably seal everything up
My cosworth vega came with a rope seal. The crank however was not knurled. I have in the past installed rope seals. Normally i install and fit the seal to the cap. Then transfer the seal to the block. Then fit the other half of the seal to the cap. Rope seals work ok. But do rob power.
We used to use only the rope style rear seals on these but used some kind of tar/glue on the seal to fix those leaks. Plus crankcase breathers on both valve covers so it didn't over pressure the seal.
Things happen when you're line bore an engine, one you're going to lose some deck clearance between the piston and head to timing chain if it's brand-new will still be on the sloppy side if that much metal has been removed does you get a timing chain that's made for an engine has been line board.
Main bearing size long rod as a mandrel, lay it in the block and you can see how the relation ship to that versus the seal machining is, drop a ball bearing down the side and it should roll to the bottom. Fit the seal carrier on the mandrel, I think you can see the whole circle from the rear, might give you some insight? What about if the line bore is off to one side?
.005" won't cause a seal to leak. Good to put seal assembly lubricant on seals. Really helps them break in and also aids assembly. Rope seal will work. Good call.
Goodday Nikola, You gota be happy Theo's RR is finally gone, hope to see it some where down the track. You are a man of your word, it is not about the cost, it is about doing the job right no matter the cost. It is just one of those engines you will never forget. Fingers crossed 🤞 the rope seal works. Cheers Louis Kats your number 1 Fan in Melbourne, Australia. 🇦🇺 🇬🇷 🇨🇦
Nick!!! Now I know your normal after seeing that drawer of associated tools. There's one there somewhere!! Thankx for the info. 383 takes a rope. Did one on a 70 wagon, yup rope.
Excellent work Nick. I wonder why the block needed align-boring to begin with? I have rarely seen this operation being required, possibly a hone job occasionally, which doesn't remove much material. Even when adding aftermarket caps, the block-half bores remain basically untouched, with the material coming off the caps. I have seen a 440 where the block was machined through the mains (by a Chevy shop) and the #3 thrust cap wasn't cut properly and the cap had a "lean" to it, causing the thrust bearing to "pinch" the crank when torqued. My friend who owned the block couldn't return it to the shop for correction, so I carefully turned the crank with the cap barely tight and made a shiny spot on the bearing where it needed clearance. I flat-sanded the thrust surface until I got .002" end play and let it go. The motor has been together now for 25yrs. running strong!!
I appreciate the study on the centerline study between crank and seal retainer. I can't imagine 0.005" being significant either. It will be fun to see if the rope seal works (more adapative?), with whatever is unhappy in there....
The center line of the crank shaft shall never be moved. The extra room that line boring creates is taken up by thicker bearings and an oversized seal. The rope seal should work but a car that is driven will eventually leak regardless.
...front seal is in a stamped steel cover...that cover is a 'sloppy' fit compared to the machine fit of the rear main...as you install the from timing cover it more or less 'centers' itself...
I love 383s! My 69 Charger has its numbers matching 383HP with 84k original miles. I had a Mopar guru rebuild it for me. Makes an honest 400-425hp depending how salty the tune up is on race gas! It’s the same color as leaky. I love them 383s! Great workhorses 💪💪💪
Nick, check/measure concentricity between rear main bearing saddle and rear main seal saddle . May be the rear main bearing saddle is off center (because of the line boring machining) to the rear main seal saddle. Sloppy machine shops do not re-machine the seal saddle to be concentric to the main bearing saddle when doing a line bore job.
Wont tne second crank being knurled damage the new rope seal?? I had an old Buick nail head engine in a 63 Lesabre that came from the factory with a rope seal but the crank was not knurled....and it never leaked, I just changed it because I was changing the oil pan gasket at the time.
Just started watching I'm gonna assume Nick conquered this leaky 383!!! No doubts whatsoever!!! I jumped the gun Damn! Looking forward to the conclusion of the leaky 383
I disagree about the lock tight on a harmonic balancer bolt. The 231 Buick V6 engine in my Pontiac Grand Prix had lock tight on it. It took me a 3/4 drive impact wrench to get it off. Needless to say, i did NOT put lock tight back on it when i finished my repairs. I drove it another 100K before getting rid of the car. No issues.
@danielslocum7169 It can also damage the balancer. The only time I have ever seen a pressed on balancer come off was when the bolt broke on my own car. A factory defective bolt with 16K on the clock. Bolt broke, balancer walked out, and shears the crankshaft key. GM had to replace the crankshaft under warranty.
I always thought that when an engine was line bored that equal amounts are removed from the block and the main caps and the diameter of the entire main journals are enlarged and is compensated for with oversized bearing shells. If that is in fact the case, the centerline of the crankshaft should still be in the same location and not moved up in the block. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
Im in the Netherlands. Here i can get Kroon oil classic line for my classics. This is an oil based on the specifications and rougher tolerances in the time. It has zddp to, when taking the valve cover off you can really see it " stick " to the valves/metal. Not like modern oils.. this helps a big part in the leaking to. Ive used it for 15 years, my classics have not leaked a drup of oil. You should try that oil Nick, you will really like it. Maybe they export to Canada i don't know. They have single 30, 15w40, 15w50 classic racing ( which i use in my Cleveland) etc
Never had a line bore done that moved the crank higher in the block. Mine were always centered in original bore to maintain original deck height. If you move the main bearing bore up you are shortening the deck height and moving the crankshaft off center with the cylinder bores. No good machine shop would do that.
i suspect that the seal is not getting compressed enough to squeeze the sealing lip tight enough against the crankshaft due to the line bore offset and/or the crankshafts seal journal being slightly undersize. usually milling the seal retainer about .010 on its block mating surface will solve that problem.apparently that has already been tried, but i think only .005 was milled off? getting a rope seal cut properly so that the ends of the two halves will seal against each other is a less than easy procedure for the un initiated i think. i would like to see how to do that correctly myself as i have done 2 rope seals [not mopars] in the past, both of which leaked. have done many successful mopar neoprene lip seals [dozens].
Well you want exactly the same distance above the crank in the seal channel as in the main cap in the seal channel. I thought they trimmed the main caps when line boring so the bore job would re-center the crank between the block and main caps. It does raise the crank center line a bit more toward the cam center line but the crank should sit exactly between the block and main caps. If you have less space on the block side for the seal as you do on the main cap side then the bore wasn't done right. I would be concerned about all the main bearings in that case. Since the wire springs in the main seal are compressed pushing the seal up into the seal channel, when you bolt the main cap down then if the seal channel is offset even by a small amount like a few thousandths it will leak at the rear main seal. f the align bore is done right the seal compresses the same on both the block side and main cap side so it will be tighter to the crank by a very small amount. I haven't seen that cause a rear main seal problem before. I would think that the seal surface on the crank is not right like either oblong or worn down so the seal doesn't fit tight enough to the crank. I thought I heard you say that you had that built back up and re-ground?
see at 3:12 the part of the crank that fits in the grove before the rear main seems a little cavernous and narrow, letting oil blow past to right into the rear main
i like your theory. Maybe add bearing grease to the rope seal. The one you took out of the other block looked packed with something around it. Another thought I have is the same factory viscosity of oil being used as well. My driveway mechanic tool senses says. Gob some silicone around it.. hahaha. Thanks for taking us through this 383 troubles.
Nick, "IF" the block had the main bearings center-line bored "correctly", the center of the crank will still be in the same orientation as stock. Center/center Oversize bearings to compensate for the bored material, but crank size is same.
Hi Nick Mike from australia had a 302 Windsor leak thought it was the main seal turned out to be the pan gasket sump to block it was leaking there but for all appearances was rear main
This is what I like about Nick's Garage; digging deep to solve a problem and not giving up until it is resolved. Try a common solution -> doesn't work Think about a problem and try a second solution -> doesn't work Think about the problem further and apply another solution ->
Appreciate Nick's amazing attitude & demeanor that he shows when facing the adversity in the shop. (In all the vlogs of Nicks not one time dose he blow up swearing tossing stuff ect. Now that's a Classy fella!) Especially of this leaking Seal! It tookMultiple times and attempts. lol Old Drippy was a real headache Sure appreciate that Nick never gave up, absolutely the best auto content on UA-cam and that's a fact! Cheers to Continued heath & success in all friend!✌💫
That Roadrunner sure looked and sounded sweet Nick, Theo will be pleased to finally get it home. Sure hope you can solve this issue with the oil leak with the crank that has a nearl as it may help throw the oil away from the seal. Great video just the same Nick.
That’s what I wondered. I would check the crank sealing surface for runout. I can’t imagine that the original tolerance on the seal location in the block was controlled to less than 0.005”.
Also line boring makes the timing chain run loose,especially on an engine with out chain tensioner. On the engines u work on,that also changes timing for rhe cam reducing power.
If you remove the rear seal but fit the seal housing, could you measure the clearance between the housing and the crank at several point around the circumference? This might tell you if the crank is not central relative to the housing.
I was watching another channel on here with a father and son rebuilding a Ford 460. They somehow mixed up the oil gally plugs and had an oil leak above the rear main seal but the dripping down from above made it look like a rear main seal leak. Anyway, by installing the correct tapered oil plug; problem solved. For them.
I know I'm getting flak on this. My original forged crank/block leaks about a drop or two a day if driven that day. I use a small shop towel with four powerful magnets stuck underneath to catch. I can park anywhere, now. Chuck the towel every oil change. Going on ten years. AT-205 sometimes helps. It's a lot cheaper (towels and magnets) than pulling an engine that already does fine...
Wow: sometimes your knowledge can really get put to the test!!!! But, PERSEVERANCE, coupled with experience and knowledge, together gets it done. And Nick keeps it 💯, he shows the good, bad, and ugly, cuz it’s all part of the story. He’ll get it done: and great vid work as always, George. Great week, all!!!!
Wow! I was always told the rope seal was inferior and the rubber seals would last longer without leaking. I’ve never had a leaking problem with the rope seals.I do have an old Buick that will leak a few drops if it hasn’t been driven for a couple of months.
If I had had an engine with that type of problem I would seal up the crankcase otherwise pressurizer crankcase with about 2 or 3 lb the smoke maker would be good. But then definitely you can look is it just the cap not made him with the block or the side shields leaking or the crankshaft and the seal not sealing not the camshaft plug oil galley plugs some mysterious crack in the block.
with the knurl and the knurl hole being offset from the bore job, maybe the offset and alignment difference causes the knurl rotation to pump oil pressure into the seal cavity. can the rope seal hold it...
If the problem is the line bore where the main bearing bore has been moved up 30-60 thou in relation to the rear main seal location, the rope seal won't work. Rope seal lacks the springyness of the newer rubber seals with the spring insert. Will probably get worse.
I Love when we get into some trouble shooting problems....i know Nick could do without it ....but thats where you learn things for sure ...hope the old rope seal works. Great show and George your intro skills are just Excellent...You keep it sharpand always improving. Big Wave and Smile to yall ...
A rope seal can be a weak point because you are installing 2 haves to seal the diameter of what takes the load of the power generated within the engine. If there is a hairline gap between the two halves, it can leak.
Machine the seal retainer to match the line bore, also a trick I learned from Hemi Hanes is use high temp silicone (orange) on retainer. (seal cap/retainer) before putting seal in place..
Hi Nick and crew.. My wife and I are going on a vacation next month the week of Thanksgiving.. Yes Nick I'm putting my beautiful wife back on the beach 🏖️🏖️... I'm driving to Gulf Shores Alabama right on the Beach .. It's so nice to get away from the HUSLE of everyday.. Nick have a great rest of the week and keep putting the POWER back on the road and making your customers HAPPY ... Hi George Manny Niko Dr Robert keep smiling 😊 all... FROM YOUR FRIEND THE BANDIT AKA BOB from Illinois!!!!!!
Check the runout of the crank rear mane seal with a dial indicator.
How about comparing these measurements. 383 oil pan to rear main split. 383 rear main split to bearing surface. 383 rear main split to seal groove. Then, the same measurements from the 400. Thinking out loud, the seal is crushed into the block and crushed into the cap as well. It's only thousandths or even tenths, but is it enough to make a difference? Lightening bolt. Lots of work, but. Get the motor back together. Set it up so you can circulate hot water through it. Pump oil through it at 60 PSI or so watch the transmission end for leaks. May take hours to appear. Obviously, the motor is on the floor. Bill Jenkins would heat his blocks for the final hone finish. I'll bet there is a crack, and the heat is the instigator.
Thanks goodness my Challenger’s 383 doesn’t have this leak. Upside for me is I get a phenomenal tutorial and a great reference video I can use anytime. Thanks Nick 😊
You're welcome!
The rope seal should work, it conforms to irregularities which is one reason the factories used them for so long.
It would be great to see old school get the win on this one.
maybe some old school seal conditioner during break in
It would be great to see the rope seal work. That'll shut up the people that bag em!!
It seem you could use a thicker upper main bearing to re-center the crank...
Fleet truck I maintained years back , one rear wheel seal would leak if it had a neoprene seal . Rawhide seal was good , never leak , but the part number for it would never show up in any search . Even factory reps said it didn't exist, but if you ordered it by number it would come in
In an effort to think out of the box, two cycle engines are often tested by using a pressure test. I wonder if a similar test could be adapted to an engine with a problem oil leak by pressurizing the crankcase slightly and using soapy water to look for bubbles which would show where a leak exists. Of course such a test would have to be done before disassembly and block off plates would have to be made for the exhaust and intake manifolds. Crankcase pressure for testing wouldn't need to be very high, perhaps up to 6 PSI for testing.
I sure appreciate the “Stick to It” attitude Nick…Truly a lesson in perseverance.
I would colour the crank surface and reinstall the end cap with a seal dry then rotate the crank to see where the leak may be
Interesting idea.
Clay strips ?
Dykem would work! I agree with this.
Deepest respect to Nick, as the level of difficulty and complexity ramp up, his level of passion and expertise always runs one step ahead as he works through a series of solutions . When an errant motor finally "throws its toys out the pram" , he remains patient and determined to get back on top. This level of passion and attention to detail is difficult to find, in any topic nowadays. Gen X, gen Y and gen z, pay attention, there are great lessons to be learned here, not just automotive.
If you measure the crank off the front timing chain cover in relation to the seal for the harmonic balancer you should see if the crank is not in it’s correct position.
There’s only one person alive that may know more than Nick and that’s Glenn Woods. Nick is a master.
No master reduces valve lash on a solid lifter cam until it sounds the way he thinks it should sound they follow the manufactures specs, I called Nick out on this in another video, and he told me he did it all the time and it was just fine, no it is not, and one of the 440's he rebuilt had a noisy rocker arm and he replaced it with an old used one he had in a drawer, I use new ones when I rebuild an engine for myself as does anyone else I know that rebuilds an engine and calls it new and if he is replacing the crankshaft in this engine why would you turn it down .020 if it's good instead of just replacing the bearings with standard size bearings. Yes, Nick knows a lot and builds nice cars, but some of the things he does defy logic. @@Steeledawg
@@SteeledawgJim's automotive machine shop could figure this out . He and his son run a engine machine shop that does all kinds of machining services to all kids of different engines including full on engine builds be it stock to full race engines so look for them on UA-cam here because they have a boat load of videos showing the machining process and set up required to do the machining . They just built a Chevrolet small block 383 stroker and the crank shaft that had been ordered was all out of spec and they had to do some machining on it to get it back in spec to move forward with the engine build and finish the job . They do everything from fixing cracked cylinders and cylinder sleeves to cracked head repair and valve guide and cracked valve seat repaires as well as bolt extraction and broken off bolts and stripped thread repairs all kinds of things from all kinds of different engines from diesel tractor engines and antique engines of all kinds so take a look at some of the videos because it's very interesting to watch what they do to fix engines that most would say it's junk and should be scrapped to fixing them to factory specs again to be used again in most cases unless the previous machine shop screwed up on machining big time.
If you line bore you need to up the outer diameter of the bearing to compensate. Simple way to confirm/reject this is if you are using different bearings or not. If they are stock or standard bearings then yeah you will move the crank closer to the journal... if its not standard then the crank is still exactly where it was before and the seal doesn't change and so on...
I remember using a tool called Chinese finger handcuffs to install rope seals when engine is still in the car.
Or a "sneaky pete"
I used a sneaky Pete to repair a main seal on my 4.0 jeep ,it worked
Dr. Nick, I think that the rope seal will do the trick, glad to see the 1970 RoadRunner going home to Oz, just in time for Summer down under, cheers.
Thanks Eric!
that car looks like it should be down under ..about 6 ft in a graveyard ...lol..lol..
Hats off to all of those who work hard at their jobs every day to make other people's lives better! Nick and George (and his supporting mechanic friends) all set great examples. ...that includes you too Melissa as I am sure you wear many hats and always show your hard work as well. Best UA-cam channel for Peace, Love, & Muscle Cars (and inspiration too!)
That’s the worst part of working on old motors, not knowing who’s touched it before you and why, and did they have any business touching it in the first place. Thank god there’s still guys like Nick who still have the knowledge and patience to fix motors like this 👍
yeah ,wonder what happened to it before it was rebuilt
Nick said he had it rebuilt so it had to have been done before he did it and like he said what they did is they put new main caps on it or they welded them in and then recut them to "spec size" but whoever did it didn't measure how high they were cutting so instead of cutting it at the height it should have been cut they cut it higher so that makes the crank sit higher in the motor and 5,000 of an inch I don't know if you would detect that with your eye that's pretty small measurement but it's enough that on a stock rear oil seal it causes all the pressure to be put on one side of the seal allowing the other side to wick oil through it
I would have tried resizing the rear retainer and mill the legs down 2.5 tho to equalize the circrumfrencial pressure on the seal.
We milled it down on an earlier job on the seal.
@@nickpanaritis4122 I'm assuming you guys also checked depth on the sides of the seal groove? It's possible the align hone was offset sideways, or even at a slight angle.
Vintage jag specialists have great idea,with rope seals 😂they use a cone shaped mandrel which is pushed in by hand and rotated . As the cone goes in it has a part which is almost rhe size if the crank journal. This shapes rhe rope to right size . It takes a while to seat the rope this way,but they never leak. And old jags,that really is something.
In the video you see engine oil sitting in the rear main seal groove in the block after the crank was removed . .005 thousands doesnt sound like alot , but the rear main has to be in the exact position as Nick has clearly shown in this video . I would suggest to measure the rear main seal block groove to main saddle machined surface , note the difference , then check the 400 block and compare the two . In any case , the rope seal should resolve the issue once and for all . Note the 400 rope seal
In the block and how its a nice wide flat seal surface .
I've never played with a Mopar engine, but I have done industrial machinery R&R. To check the line bore/rear seal issue, I'd obtain a STRAIGHT piece of turned, ground & polished (TGP) round stock the same diameter as the main journals, and about 6in longer than the block. Clamp it in the mains and slide that rear seal block on and see if there's any alignment issues.
Here is one for Nick. I bought a 1971 Dodge pickup from a local farmer. The Cam gear had gone bad. After putting a new timing chain and gears in the 318 LA motor, I noticed that the thrust bearing was shot. This allowed the crankshaft to move back and forth while the engine was running. I towed a race car with the truck for a year not to mention many loads of firewood. Never did the rear main seal or the front timing cover seal leak. Freeze plugs were another story though. LOL I kept a good alternator/water pump belt on that engine, and I believe it kept the crankshaft from moving too much. It never threw a belt.
These troubleshooting episodes are some of my favorites..
I once saw a leak coming from a pinhole size void at the back of the engine as a flaw in sand casting the block. The leak was above the crank somewhere around the cam and it would leak and look like it was coming from the rear main which was rope back in that day. It wasn't in a Mopar as I recall.
I hope Nick see this comment
Almost sad to see Theo’s Roadrunner leave… it’s been part of the family for a while. Very Happy for Theo. A beautiful build!! Enjoy Theo! 😃👍
He is unbelievable. A master at work. I can’t imagine how he memorized all of this information!
Over the years with rope seals building engines i always used to work silicone into the rope seal with rubber gloves on . Slowly rub it in before putting the crank in and yes offset the seal to the crank journal then torque down the crank and rotate..Hope this info helps cheers
I installed a rope seal in a 403 Olds and it didn't leak. hopefully works for your 383.
Don't know if you will see this, but you can buy synthetic one way seals in rope form. The seal has a surface on it you install one direction and it wipes oil constantly back into the engine. I personally bought a box of it, its very expensive, but I put it in a oldsmobile rocket 371 that had to be line bored. Same situation, it leaked and leaked and leaked despite everything. When we pulled out the two piece seal and put in the synthetic wiper seal, it stopped leaking and 20 years later, still dry.
Always great thought provoking challenges that Nick seems to show his mastery at solving. My thoughts are the retainer is the problem. If there is no clearance with seal retainer and the rear bearing to allow oil drainage drainage, the oil pressure could force oil past the seal. It looked like the seal retainer was tilted out with the initial tear down a while back. In the end the rope seal ought to fix the leak?
How do you not bend a valve turning the motor over without the cam moving? Cant you just use a different bearing when u put a standard crank in the block instead of cutting material off the mains and rods on the crank bearing
Old school, Get a rope. worked on a 1955 Buick Nail Head. back in the 70dys they had this kit for the rope seal, it was called a sneaky Pet it worked. was able to get the old one out and put the new one in with that tool. I don't even know if they still make them or not. Thanks Nick ,you Rock
That 1970 Roadrunner convertible would be my dream car. Doesn't have to be convertible but a 1970 Roadrunner is the best of the best in my opinion. 1970 was the Pinnacle of muscle car production
There was a story in my household that my father told me that when he was a boy my grandfather was moving our family from Missouri to Michigan this would have been in the early 1930s the four-cylinder Model A Ford that they were driving spun a rod bearing my grandfather being the genius man that he was cut a piece of leather belt soaked in oil and used it for the bearing that they spun.. it got them the last hundred and fifty miles with no issues so your rope seal idea might be the key it will swell up probably seal everything up
If the crank is out of alignment pushed upward wouldn’t the balancer seal leak too??
Not really. The front seal has a larger lip.
My cosworth vega came with a rope seal. The crank however was not knurled.
I have in the past installed rope seals. Normally i install and fit the seal to the cap. Then transfer the seal to the block. Then fit the other half of the seal to the cap. Rope seals work ok. But do rob power.
Could the seal be shimmed up in the retainer?
We used to use only the rope style rear seals on these but used some kind of tar/glue on the seal to fix those leaks. Plus crankcase breathers on both valve covers so it didn't over pressure the seal.
Things happen when you're line bore an engine, one you're going to lose some deck clearance between the piston and head to timing chain if it's brand-new will still be on the sloppy side if that much metal has been removed does you get a timing chain that's made for an engine has been line board.
Main bearing size long rod as a mandrel, lay it in the block and you can see how the relation ship to that versus the seal machining is, drop a ball bearing down the side and it should roll to the bottom.
Fit the seal carrier on the mandrel, I think you can see the whole circle from the rear, might give you some insight?
What about if the line bore is off to one side?
We love you Nick - this is advanced reasoning, mechanical brilliance and we're learning a lot and enjoying the ride.
Glad you enjoy it!
@NicksGarage You've got this my friend!
I would put a dial Guage on the seal surface of the crank. Rope seal and neoprene both work . Takes a lil extra work on the rope seal installation
.005" won't cause a seal to leak. Good to put seal assembly lubricant on seals. Really helps them break in and also aids assembly.
Rope seal will work. Good call.
Goodday Nikola,
You gota be happy Theo's RR is finally gone, hope to see it some where down the track.
You are a man of your word, it is not about the cost, it is about doing the job right no matter the cost.
It is just one of those engines you will never forget.
Fingers crossed 🤞 the rope seal works.
Cheers
Louis Kats your number 1 Fan in Melbourne, Australia.
🇦🇺 🇬🇷 🇨🇦
Nick "old leaky" is a drip off the old block !
haha!
Nick answered my question immediately after I posted it.. need to PAY ATTENTION.. you’re the man, Nick!
Nick!!! Now I know your normal after seeing that drawer of associated tools. There's one there somewhere!!
Thankx for the info.
383 takes a rope.
Did one on a 70 wagon, yup rope.
Excellent work Nick. I wonder why the block needed align-boring to begin with? I have rarely seen this operation being required, possibly a hone job occasionally, which doesn't remove much material. Even when adding aftermarket caps, the block-half bores remain basically untouched, with the material coming off the caps. I have seen a 440 where the block was machined through the mains (by a Chevy shop) and the #3 thrust cap wasn't cut properly and the cap had a "lean" to it, causing the thrust bearing to "pinch" the crank when torqued. My friend who owned the block couldn't return it to the shop for correction, so I carefully turned the crank with the cap barely tight and made a shiny spot on the bearing where it needed clearance. I flat-sanded the thrust surface until I got .002" end play and let it go. The motor has been together now for 25yrs. running strong!!
Be looking forward to the follow-up video, betcha the rope seal does the trick. Thanks for an interesting tutorial, Nick!
Thanks for watching!
I appreciate the study on the centerline study between crank and seal retainer. I can't imagine 0.005" being significant either. It will be fun to see if the rope seal works (more adapative?), with whatever is unhappy in there....
you are headed for trouble when you line bore a mopar and put the original crank back in it ..Nick should know that .
mopar's engines require tight clearances . GM engines can be a little loose .
it depends on how much interference there is on the lip of the seal = rope has a lot more 'crush'
Rope seal will work. It catches up the little play. That little bit of the line bore wouldnt affect it you would seem to think 😅.
The center line of the crank shaft shall never be moved. The extra room that line boring creates is taken up by thicker bearings and an oversized seal. The rope seal should work but a car that is driven will eventually leak regardless.
no extra room is created.
I currently have a leaky 383 that was align bored, goes back to the mechanic once the fast fish seal comes in!
Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.
If the crankshaft has been lowered because of line bore, why wouldn't the front seal leak too?
...front seal is in a stamped steel cover...that cover is a 'sloppy' fit compared to the machine fit of the rear main...as you install the from timing cover it more or less 'centers' itself...
I love 383s! My 69 Charger has its numbers matching 383HP with 84k original miles. I had a Mopar guru rebuild it for me. Makes an honest 400-425hp depending how salty the tune up is on race gas! It’s the same color as leaky. I love them 383s! Great workhorses 💪💪💪
Nick, check/measure concentricity between rear main bearing saddle and rear main seal saddle . May be the rear main bearing saddle is off center (because of the line boring machining) to the rear main seal saddle. Sloppy machine shops do not re-machine the seal saddle to be concentric to the main bearing saddle when doing a line bore job.
All that rope seal is, is the same packing we use on reciprocating pumps.
Interesting.
We also used that in Steam valve packing glands, it comes in many different sizes and are generally square.
Wont tne second crank being knurled damage the new rope seal?? I had an old Buick nail head engine in a 63 Lesabre that came from the factory with a rope seal but the crank was not knurled....and it never leaked, I just changed it because I was changing the oil pan gasket at the time.
Just started watching
I'm gonna assume Nick conquered this leaky 383!!! No doubts whatsoever!!!
I jumped the gun Damn!
Looking forward to the conclusion of the leaky 383
I disagree about the lock tight on a harmonic balancer bolt. The 231 Buick V6 engine in my Pontiac Grand Prix had lock tight on it. It took me a 3/4 drive impact wrench to get it off.
Needless to say, i did NOT put lock tight back on it when i finished my repairs. I drove it another 100K before getting rid of the car. No issues.
a little heat applied to the bolt head will travel the length of the bolt and soften up the lock tight.
@danielslocum7169 It can also damage the balancer. The only time I have ever seen a pressed on balancer come off was when the bolt broke on my own car.
A factory defective bolt with 16K on the clock. Bolt broke, balancer walked out, and shears the crankshaft key. GM had to replace the crankshaft under warranty.
a Lot of heat could damage the damper or the bolt. it only takes a little heat to soften the lock tight.@@karrpilot7092
I always thought that when an engine was line bored that equal amounts are removed from the block and the main caps and the diameter of the entire main journals are enlarged and is compensated for with oversized bearing shells. If that is in fact the case, the centerline of the crankshaft should still be in the same location and not moved up in the block. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
30 Years ago had the same problem after rebuild . two rubber seals then ended up replacing with oe rope seal
Im in the Netherlands. Here i can get Kroon oil classic line for my classics. This is an oil based on the specifications and rougher tolerances in the time. It has zddp to, when taking the valve cover off you can really see it " stick " to the valves/metal. Not like modern oils.. this helps a big part in the leaking to. Ive used it for 15 years, my classics have not leaked a drup of oil.
You should try that oil Nick, you will really like it. Maybe they export to Canada i don't know. They have single 30, 15w40, 15w50 classic racing ( which i use in my Cleveland) etc
Never had a line bore done that moved the crank higher in the block.
Mine were always centered in original bore to maintain original deck height. If you move the main bearing bore up you are shortening the deck height and moving the crankshaft off center with the cylinder bores. No good machine shop would do that.
Only a master would think of things like Nick does. It makes total sense, and I hope it fixes the issue. Good luck!
i suspect that the seal is not getting compressed enough to squeeze the sealing lip tight enough against the crankshaft due to the line bore offset and/or the crankshafts seal journal being slightly undersize. usually milling the seal retainer about .010 on its block mating surface will solve that problem.apparently that has already been tried, but i think only .005 was milled off? getting a rope seal cut properly so that the ends of the two halves will seal against each other is a less than easy procedure for the un initiated i think. i would like to see how to do that correctly myself as i have done 2 rope seals [not mopars] in the past, both of which leaked. have done many successful mopar neoprene lip seals [dozens].
Well you want exactly the same distance above the crank in the seal channel as in the main cap in the seal channel. I thought they trimmed the main caps when line boring so the bore job would re-center the crank between the block and main caps. It does raise the crank center line a bit more toward the cam center line but the crank should sit exactly between the block and main caps.
If you have less space on the block side for the seal as you do on the main cap side then the bore wasn't done right. I would be concerned about all the main bearings in that case. Since the wire springs in the main seal are compressed pushing the seal up into the seal channel, when you bolt the main cap down then if the seal channel is offset even by a small amount like a few thousandths it will leak at the rear main seal. f the align bore is done right the seal compresses the same on both the block side and main cap side so it will be tighter to the crank by a very small amount. I haven't seen that cause a rear main seal problem before.
I would think that the seal surface on the crank is not right like either oblong or worn down so the seal doesn't fit tight enough to the crank. I thought I heard you say that you had that built back up and re-ground?
see at 3:12 the part of the crank that fits in the grove before the rear main seems a little cavernous and narrow, letting oil blow past to right into the rear main
If anyone can stop that pesky leak, it’s Nick…. Here we go!!
Wow, good luck Nick, this one has gotten a life of its own.
Nick.. you are a man of his word.
i like your theory. Maybe add bearing grease to the rope seal. The one you took out of the other block looked packed with something around it. Another thought I have is the same factory viscosity of oil being used as well. My driveway mechanic tool senses says. Gob some silicone around it.. hahaha. Thanks for taking us through this 383 troubles.
I have to give you a lot of credit, I would have quit long ago. You are truly a master mechanic!
Nick, "IF" the block had the main bearings center-line bored "correctly", the center of the crank will still be in the same orientation as stock. Center/center Oversize bearings to compensate for the bored material, but crank size is same.
Hi Nick Mike from australia had a 302 Windsor leak thought it was the main seal turned out to be the pan gasket sump to block it was leaking there but for all appearances was rear main
My Hats off to ya Nick,You go the distance to make it Right.
This is what I like about Nick's Garage; digging deep to solve a problem and not giving up until it is resolved.
Try a common solution -> doesn't work
Think about a problem and try a second solution -> doesn't work
Think about the problem further and apply another solution ->
Appreciate Nick's amazing attitude & demeanor that he shows when facing the adversity in the shop. (In all the vlogs of Nicks not one time dose he blow up swearing tossing stuff ect. Now that's a Classy fella!) Especially of this leaking Seal!
It tookMultiple times and attempts. lol Old Drippy was a real headache Sure appreciate that Nick never gave up, absolutely the best auto content on UA-cam and that's a fact! Cheers to Continued heath & success in all friend!✌💫
That Roadrunner sure looked and sounded sweet Nick, Theo will be pleased to finally get it home. Sure hope you can solve this issue with the oil leak with the crank that has a nearl as it may help throw the oil away from the seal. Great video just the same Nick.
** knurl……
Is it possible that the rear seal surface on the crank is not concentric?
That’s what I wondered. I would check the crank sealing surface for runout. I can’t imagine that the original tolerance on the seal location in the block was controlled to less than 0.005”.
Also line boring makes the timing chain run loose,especially on an engine with out chain tensioner. On the engines u work on,that also changes timing for rhe cam reducing power.
If you remove the rear seal but fit the seal housing, could you measure the clearance between the housing and the crank at several point around the circumference? This might tell you if the crank is not central relative to the housing.
I was watching another channel on here with a father and son rebuilding a Ford 460. They somehow mixed up the oil gally plugs and had an oil leak above the rear main seal but the dripping down from above made it look like a rear main seal leak. Anyway, by installing the correct tapered oil plug; problem solved. For them.
That's a real Head Scratcher Nick! I have my fingers crossed your plan will fix "Ole Leaky". Good luck! Bill from Linglestown Pennsylvania
I know I'm getting flak on this. My original forged crank/block leaks about a drop or two a day if driven that day. I use a small shop towel with four powerful magnets stuck underneath to catch. I can park anywhere, now. Chuck the towel every oil change. Going on ten years. AT-205 sometimes helps. It's a lot cheaper (towels and magnets) than pulling an engine that already does fine...
Nice!
Wow: sometimes your knowledge can really get put to the test!!!! But, PERSEVERANCE, coupled with experience and knowledge, together gets it done. And Nick keeps it 💯, he shows the good, bad, and ugly, cuz it’s all part of the story. He’ll get it done: and great vid work as always, George. Great week, all!!!!
Wow! I was always told the rope seal was inferior and the rubber seals would last longer without leaking. I’ve never had a leaking problem with the rope seals.I do have an old Buick that will leak a few drops if it hasn’t been driven for a couple of months.
Nick is a Mopar surgeon i had a 327 chevy with the same problem .
If I had had an engine with that type of problem I would seal up the crankcase otherwise pressurizer crankcase with about 2 or 3 lb the smoke maker would be good. But then definitely you can look is it just the cap not made him with the block or the side shields leaking or the crankshaft and the seal not sealing not the camshaft plug oil galley plugs some mysterious crack in the block.
I bought the Mancini Racing rear main retainer with the viton seal mine leaks too.
Nick...Any chance the engine is producing too much crankcase pressure and blowing oil past the rear main?....Just thinking out loud here.
He would pick up on that reading vacuum on the dyno.
Use a dial indicator on crank flange to see if you have any runout in the crank. Also do you use any type of alignment tool for the rear seal cover.
Thanks Nick and good luck with the seal. Also thanks for all your help. Cheers
Wouldnt the hight be compesated with the new bearings ?
with the knurl and the knurl hole being offset from the bore job, maybe the offset and alignment difference causes the knurl rotation to pump oil pressure into the seal cavity. can the rope seal hold it...
If the problem is the line bore where the main bearing bore has been moved up 30-60 thou in relation to the rear main seal location, the rope seal won't work. Rope seal lacks the springyness of the newer rubber seals with the spring insert. Will probably get worse.
Awesome shop I have faith in the rope seal that is really old school keep them coming and see you Monday
I Love when we get into some trouble shooting problems....i know Nick could do without it ....but thats where you learn things for sure ...hope the old rope seal works. Great show and George your intro skills are just Excellent...You keep it sharpand always improving. Big Wave and Smile to yall ...
A rope seal can be a weak point because you are installing 2 haves to seal the diameter of what takes the load of the power generated within the engine. If there is a hairline gap between the two halves, it can leak.
Yep. The fit has to be just right.
They’ve worked on a million motors.
Hey Nick, what's with the new hair color? Getting a little light on the top.
Nick you need to do the same measurement but to the crank journal height. To see how far they cut the journal deeper into the block.