For everyone commenting about my comment of Ellie being more upbeat… ya’ll are right. First off, wrong choice of words. And I also remembered it wrong as I mentioned in the video. It’s been a while since I played. I recalled the doubt that Ellie had and how the game ended but for some reason my fallible memory wrote her expression as slightly more positive than it actually was. I attribute this to the more soft expression of Ellie in the game especially in contrast with Bella Ramsey’s portrayals which feels harder. And more is able to be conveyed with an actual actors face than the graphics of ps3 could offer at the time which is the experience that was more impressionable for me. Either way, I stand corrected.
The Bill and Frank episode reflects this one, especially the letter Bill left to Joel about people worth protecting, their purpose to protect those people, and "God help the mfers that stand in their way."
Yeah, the Kathleen part of the Kathleen episode is definitely more Part 2 but the Henry and Sam story is very much reflected here. Henry doing "the unforgivable" to save Sam, the same way Joel does here. You're right though also. It is both. Part of what make this series and the game so great is the foreshadowing and the way that the story beats sorta "rhymes" or is structured like verse. Episode 3 "rhymes" with episode 7 and 9 like you said. What Marlene says to Ellie to convince her that she is trustworthy and also What Kathleen says about fate and Sam in episode 4 and 5 "rhymes" with a lot of David's dialogue in episode 8. This series is pretty good... :)
@@EnragedDancer I was going to say the same thing. Henry gave up the revolution and that one great man to save Sam and tells Joel that he’s a bad guy because he did a bad thing. when Joel saves Elle over the potential cure a lot of folks look at Joel like he’s a bad guy because he did a bad thing.
Watching the hospital massacre in a room full of people who know nothing about the game and seeing their jaws collectively hit the floor in utter disbelief is one of my favorite tv watching moments of all time. The lack of Joel violence all season leading up this moment was unquestionably worth the payoff in my humble opinion.
@@deathswitch2404 It was done in a more realistic fashion. I liked it, honestly. The music choice was solid too, not heroic sounding or anything like that.
@@deathswitch2404 I have to agree with you, especially the scene where he left into the elevator, should have been people chasing him and him just barely making it out.
Ashley Johnson in live action honestly looks like she could actually be tv Ellies mom. What a poetic moment for fans, seeing game Ellie give birth to TV Ellie and sort of pass the torch (at least until part 3 comes which I believe it will)
@@system0fadowner251 Oh I think its 100% at this point, just look at the sales of Part 1 and Part 2, sky rocketing.. Sonys also pushing for more of their IP's to become series.. I'd say we'll get Part 3 in 2025, with the leaks last time I bet you it will be tight sealed till release day.
@@traviscue2099 yeah true. I hope they can turn horizon into a great show. The story wasn't tlou level but the world and lore would make for a great story setting that they could do so much with.
Achara's opinion on Joel's lying is so on point. I googled her and found that she studied drama. That's probably why she's so good at meticulously analyzing characters.
Achara's nuance knowledge of characterizations translates really good in her explanations and that's why I like to listen to her after watch discussions.
Sounds like Jaby needs to replay the game. He makes some slight misreads on the characters at the end. Ellie was in no way upbeat at the end. She was just as emotionally distant as in the show. She suspects that Joel is lying, and she is trying to come to terms with the person that she loves the most possibly being the one who took away the one thing that she felt would give her life purpose. She’s conflicted, so she just begrudgingly agrees to “accept” his lie. But their relationship has been hit due to this.
@@davidnguyen3275 yeah, I watch this Chanel multiple times, and the woman got better insight than that guy so I believed most comment that's people wrote, I came to conclusion, that He react to the show, he played the game before but he didn't get it, I would watch someone who's read the char, subtlety n their arc better.
I initially had a similar feeling about why Ellie was acting odd and being quiet, but then I remembered that she went thru all the horrible things in the last episode. She's still getting over that still.
That's how she was in the game as well. It wasn't only what she went through. The uncertainty of what will happen was also eating at her. She was finally near the end.
@@wizarddragon Normally she would think that they would just take blood ("My blood is medicine" to Sam), not do surgery on her brain. I think they also know that they would remain together afterwards. This makes the moodiness (due to the end of the journey) less likely.
In the end, I think Joel was disassociated, he was killing all those people, who weren't bad people really, and not really thinking about it, he just had to save Ellie, because fuck the world, she IS his world, and he couldn't lose his daughter again.
@@アキコ2003 They bombed and killed innocent people just because they were associated with Fedra. How can you forget that Tess almost died in the first episode because the Fireflies bombed a damn car.
I LOVE that they literally had "Ellie" give birth to Bella as Ellie! The final word of the season, Ellie's "okay"' feels so completely like she is intentionally trying to internalize Joe's lies as truth even though she recognized the lie for what it was.
what I would liken it to is when a spouse cheats on the other but they've been married for decades.... and one asks the other swear to me u didn't? they say they didn't... but they both know they did. but everyone just kind of wilfully accepts the lie to move forward
Anna holding her switchblade to her own neck will haunt me. She was prepared to plunge it into her own neck the moment she thought she’d lost control. I can’t. I seriously can’t with this show. The things parents do for their children. God this show is amazing.
I think she was probably experiencing doubts if the world was even worth saving (Edit: After her ordeal with David.). And finding the giraffes restored a bit of hope.
Yeah and it was fantastic acting by Bella, depicting a kid dealing with the trauma and horror Ellie experienced with David. These last 3 eps have earned them that Emmy, and it'll be a crime if they aren't nominated.
Can't believe multiple reactors now have said they're not sure why Ellie is down. It's fairly obvious why but maybe it's easier to comprehend in the game as there is no weeks wait between episodes, you go straight from Ellie killing David to on the highway in Salt Lake City
as someone who already knew what was coming, i LOVED how they did the hospital scene. the way they made it look like joel was in this, like, haze to get to ellie, seeing everyone not as human beings but just obstacles in his way, and how he just kinda barely starts to realize what he did when he's in the elevator and then when marlene finds him... god it was just so good and pedro did it perfectly
Exactly, at first I thought it was a bit robotic and stiff but then I realized that yea he’s in protecter mode he’s gonna save her and do whatever he has to do. And honestly I liked how he killed the doctor quick cause this isn’t the game and Joel isn’t fuckin around
@Rick King 22 The game, the series as whole, have you not paid any attention, or even played the game before making this retarded comment?. 20 years of fighting and they have achieved nothing, heck, Marlene even admitted that much herself in the first episode. This is not to mention that Jackson is proof there is no reason to fight in the first place, that you can settle down and live your lives.
@Rick King 22 Come on, it is SO unlikely that a cure could be developed at this point. There's no proof that Ellie was "immune," no tests were ever done on her. She may have had a mutated strain for all we know. The point is, even if a cure could be made, how would it be able to be produced on a mass scale? There's too many infected left, the world is unable to ve recovered at this point. Ellie was dying for a lost cause. That's the most likely scenario.
20:00 The way I saw the Joel Massacre part was he had tunnel vision that whole time. That's why you couldn't really hear the gun shots and only the music.
I love that Anna was singing A-ha to Ellie, “The Sun Always Shines On TV.” It’s a nice tie-in to the second game. Different song, but same group and album.
Jaby, I think you're remembering the game differently. This episode was almost a total 1 for 1 from the game. They just added a few more lines of dialog and skipped a major action scene. But Ellie is distrusting of Joel right when she wakes up in the game. The Giraffe scene happens the same way in the game at the same place.
Ellie was NOT upbeat in the car lmao. Nor was she spunky at the end. play the game again. She is full of uncertainty and doubt. And she feels the loss of her purpose. In the show, Joel's massacre is essentially shot from his perspective. The sound is all muffled & weird a la his other PTSD and/or panic episodes.. He is of a one-track mind & has no connection to what he's doing here. But when the voices do break through the music & muffled sound... like it did with that one guy he stabbed with Ellie/Anna's switchblade... it was EFFECTIVE. Once again, I think that holding back on that audio was a great choice :)
anna cut the umbilical cord with the same knife she killed the infected with, and she couldn't remove the umbilical cord from ellie so the blood could have absorbed that way.
To respond to your recollections of the game, she was very moody in the chapter of the game. I think she was still dealing with the trauma of what David did to her. She didn’t seem moody to me, it was more like she turned inward a bit. Joel tried to keep her distracted, which basically made them switch positions within the relationship. Joel is now the chatty one and Ellie has become more quiet and reserved.
Laura Bailey, who voiced Abby in the sequel game and is also one of the founding members of Critical Role along with Ashley Johnson, played one of the nurses! She's also the creator/voice of Vex'ahlia in "The Legend of Vox Machina" animated series that I know Achara likes!
Ashley Johnson is just a friggin joy in everything. Well, technically not a joy in this lol. More like appropriately heartbreaking and super awesome. That was her first birth scene too!
Fantastic and emotional episode. I like the add when Joel confessed that he tried to kill himself and that he directly says to Ellie that she saved him, had me all teary eyed
@@The_Beard_Man1. It’s a novel adaptation. 2. The first seasons was pasable-good and the second seasons is below average, third seasons will deviate even more from the source material and will be bad and season four will deviate even more and change the actor, it’s going to be horrible and an insult. TLOU is the only live action adaptation that you can safely say it’s an amazing adaptation. Sonic is passable, it has bad acting and the writing is noting groundbreaking it’s just passable so TLOU is the only one and hopefully GOW is the second one.
@The Beard Man The Witcher series is butchered by the showrunner & writers. The lead actor Henry Cavill literally left the show bcoz of the deviation from the books. 🤦♂️
Last week was my favourite episode, I was looking forward to it the whole season, but this was one hell of a send off for the season. Loved the performances and music. What a great show!
Playing the game and seeing the ep knowing whats gonna happen and still making me awe struck the whole episode is really something. I never thought that its possible to replicate the feeling of the ending but boy this hits deeper and real. Never felt this from any other ep of any show
Ellie was acting like that not from anxiety about reaching her destination. It was because of what she just went thru with David and almost getting chipped to pieces. How could you forget that
I really loved the music choice for the hospital scene. I thought it reflected Joel’s internal feelings well the way the show has portrayed him. This isn’t a triumphant moment for him, it’s tense and sad. The music helped me feel the same way. Probably helps that I didn’t play the game but I think it fit this Joel perfect in this scenario.
Loved the discussion. Great catch with the sad music its the same music they used when he was taking her to the lift in the game. They literally mention this in the podcast. they also explain the whole point of ep3 in the ep9 podcast.
I really appreciated yall's conversation after the episode! I share the same opinion as Jaby on the hospital scene along with my feelings on the things the show didn't include, but in its overall form I've had an awesome time with this show. So happy it turned out this way 🙌
In the game, while exploring in the hunter hotel in Pittsburgh, there is an optional dialogue sequence wherein Joel and Ellie come across a couple (who are now corpses) sitting in a bathtub. Ellie comments, "guess they took the easy way out," and Joel responds, "it ain't easy."
It was almost beat for beat, even shot for shot like the game. Joels action always feels selfish yet justified as a parent. Ellie didn't wake up "joyful" in the car, there was this uncertainty permeating throughout right before Joel lies to her.
I didn't play the game but really like the way they delivered the finale. They clearly had the intent of making it tragic and sad.. kind of like Joel ending" humanity's last hope." Pedro Pascal's performance during the hospital scene.. omg, give this guy an Emmy. His facial expressions and body movements... feels like he is in some sort of trance, like he is not in control of his body, and is just going with the flow.. but with a vibe of "regret" while doing it.. Love your reactions! can't wait for season 2 so I'm playing part 2 😎😎
Ellie by this point in the game hadn't killed only 2 people. She had killed dozens. She was a different person from the relatively innocent girl we started with.
@Babylauncher3000 the way you structured the reply I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with what I said....... but yes. In the gm she gets traumatized. She's killed dozens and dozens but it was never this intense and they were clickers. The reason why she stats being quite is because they're trying to make it known that this exact moment is where she crossed the line from an innocent girl to a killer. When she comes across the giraffe it's to deliver a message that's being delivered throughout the entire story. "Look for the light" . Meaning no matter how dark things get look for the positive. After she was traumatized she gets to be a kid again when running to see the giraffe. Even in a dark world such as this there is still beauty to be found of you look for it. Message carries across all of their stories. Joel for example. He lost his daughter and almost killed himself.... was able to find something to live for.
Also about the car reaction from Ellie, it was basically 1 for 1 from how I remember it. Even her turning around to face the opposite direction is the same as in the game. I think in both she was visibly disappointed that there whole journeys purpose really amounted to nothing as well as her being skeptics
The switch between Joel and Ellie's moods between the first couple of episodes and now is amazing. At first Joel was full of despair and cynicism and Ellie was child-like and more upbeat and mouthy, now with everything they've been through Joel has hope and Ellie has lost her innocence and more positive outlook.
Before surgery, you are expected to sit down with the doctor, they would tell you what the plan is, all the risks and then sign as a form of consent. If it is a minor, of course it would be the parents decision (or the kid if they understood). So, the thing they did with Ellie? You can sue the hospital for it, or in this case it is veeeeery understandable that Joel wouldn't want Ellie to go through with it (or at least Joel would want Ellie to know what the doctor is trying to do). Joel is still selfish though :) On the other hand, vaccines are not easy to make. Just look at the example we had to do to produce a covid vaccine. To us, it seems it was a pretty quick thing to research and produce, but then again we basically have all the resource to make one. In their universe? I bet it's more likely to fail in the first attempt (even if it is possible, they would need to experiment a lot and need to have more subjects like Ellie). So, if Ellie in the end doesn't want to do it, I guess it's okay. Maybe she could wait for a while, and there's likely other people like Ellie. It's like organ donation, it's not enforced, but you are more likely to donate because of morals and principles.
What I think it's so fascinating when it comes to the big choice, and what makes it even harder for me personally is that the show keeps showing us that Ellie looks forward to life with Joel after she's done engineering a vaccine. They kept making a point of showing us that Ellie always wanted and hoped for the best of both worlds. For her immunity and her survival to mean something for the greater good AND to continue being a family with Joel. And she never gets to make that choice. The Fireflies never tell her the truth and rush her to surgery and Joel kills all the Fireflies in the hospital trying to get her away from certain death. No one wanted to let her choose just in case she chose the 'wrong' thing (which was different depending who you asked)
After it’s all said and done, I still don’t see the Episode 3 concerns. I think Bill and Frank’s story basically served as the thesis statement for the show. I don’t see why putting in Game Bill would really improve the show other than just being like the game. I don’t see a qualitative improvement from that choice. Just a difference choice.
i'm really glad the both of you addressed and understood both sides of the dilemma presented by the game's ending - and more specifically joel's decision it's so infuriating listening to reactors (to both the show and the game) go to hell and back to defend one side of the coin and come up with any and all justifications to minimize the effects that decision has to the other side
I think you’re misremembering the game, Ellie was the same in both here. She was down in the beginning after the previous events, and she didn’t trust Joel fully at the end either
(NON PLAYER POV) Gosh, I just finished watching this ep. Damn, it's so hard. I mean, I really hate moral dilemmas. If it comes to a point when something can't be agreed upon, I'd do what I think is right, you do what you think is right. Marlene did what she thought was right, but Joel did what he felt was right. Even though Ellie felt that the Fireflies are good people because of Riley, Someone needs to knock to her head that what happened was a tragedy and her life is much more precious than a sacrifice. People lived without a cure, Ellie doesn't need to die for a cure. it's not worth it.
If it's her decision that's one thing, but they didn't give her the chance to make the decision. And they didn't give Joel any other choice but to fight or leave her to die without having the chance to make the decision for herself.
keep in mind, the doctors and people there aside from Marlene don't know Ellie, even Marlene doesn't know Ellie like Joel does. To Joel its probably obvious that Ellie would have chosen to die for a chance at a cure. But to the Fireflies even Marlene, Ellie is a kid, and you are trusting potentially the future of humanity to the whims of a teenage girl. Everyone here was making a choice that was right and logical to them, a choice born out of love. But actions always have consequences, Marlene got to see before she died the consequences of hers, as did the rest of the Fireflies. What will the consequences be for Joel I wonder?
Marlene spent zero time with Ellie growing up. She dropped her off as an orphan infant at FEDRA's boston school. It's why Ellie didn't recognize her. Ellie never saw outside of that school until Riley snuck her out, which was what, 6 months ago? She had no life experience outside of that. She was also utterly traumatized, suffering from abandonement issues and PTSD from the last 6 months, and in no way in a stable mental capacity to choose to give up her life for "humanity". Humanity to that point had made her feel like she was worthless outside of being a possible cure. She wasn't thinking about losing Joel at the beginning of the episode. She was literally depressed and traumatized from nearly being raped and eaten by a cannibal she then had to kill up close and personally.
As I was listening to you talk about what you wanted in the show I was thinking about much more all those things would have cost. When a show is sold they are given a price of how much they thing the show will make verus what it will do. So, HBO gave them money on the hopes that it would be a hit. How much that was and how much it cost to make the series are different that video game budgets. I'm hoping with the views of this season they will be given a bigger budget for seasson 2. So, what more of the things you were talking about could be fleshed out.
Something cool about this episode... ellies mom is Pike from Vox Machina and one of the nurses in the room with Ellie was Vex from Vox Machina. Vex is also Abby from TLOU2 the game.
I like that Joel gave them 3 chances to let Ellie go, they only let her go the 3rd time time after he popped someone first. In the game you can just come in kill everyone.
Joel isn’t lying to protect Ellie. He’s lying to protect himself. He can’t bear to lose another daughter. And as much as I loved Ellie and Joel’s developing relationship, it feels like it’s now strayed into desperate need on Joel’s part. He’s going to hurt people-not just to protect Ellie, but to protect himself from being retraumatized. That’s eventually got a very good chance of turning into resentment.
Yes in all the podcasts they say their message for the show in every episode was to show the bad side or more complicated side of love. That there is actually a bad/complicated side. They said it was always meant to have a subversive message about love and how it can pit us against everyone else and what and who they love.
It's definitely not moodiness on behalf of Bella. She's emoting trauma after her experience with David. At least that's how I read it. As a parent i can honestly say i would probably make the same choice as Joel. They hit all of the important points from the game in this episode. It was beautifully done. Anna lied to Marlene to save her daughter just like Joel lied. Sometimes-as the showrunners said -that's the light and dark of what love is and what you're capable of doing for someone you love.
So cool to see Ashley play Anna aka Ellie’s mom, having game Ellie birth her show counterpart is so poetically beautiful to me but in terms of Joel’s decision and actions at the end to me they are completely justified, as a father myself I would’ve done the same to get to either of my daughters especially after what the Fireflies have done in the name of ‘revolution’
Ellie was traumatized and lost in her head. The innocence was losing and the giraffe was a sign that it aint easy but it will get easier. She is still her but now seeing the cool and awful sides of life. And actually Joel was having a dissociation stress wich is how people who suffered huge traumatic events before usually works. He is capable of doing impulsive acts and even not realize at the time exactly. The thing about he's done in the past when Sarah died and the things Marlene knew about Joel through Tommy and Tess. And the things were really bad enough to make those people fear Joel or see even as someone to keep away for knowing that he can dissociate like that sometimes. Poor Robert of episode 1 scared to death haha The approach of this scene in the hospital was to show in the eyes of Joel how he was about to burn his soul for not having his daughter die again and it was so sad to see how he was so precisely at everything like he was possessed but the old Joel that he was trying to let go. You could see in his face while fear and love could give you wings. Almost like a dream or something. He's not this baddass hero and superhuman skilled, he is simply a man with luck, and it is gonna run out. The fireflies were just following orders and didn't need to be shown like a spectacle action sequence, just the bodies had more emphasis. This is how a stereotyped action scene was actually viewd as a sad and heartbreaking moment. A broken guy trying to make things right when he couldn't. To people who keep saying that wanted more action and infected in the show are so annoying and don't get how Joel and Ellie are so much the whole important thing and how even when they try to say "I love you" is totally different for not just simply saying as a normal thing to expect in our day to day. Every episode had their purpose til the very end for a reason.This is not a game, is a complicated love story about how scary, beautiful and ambiguous can be by two broken individuals, in both medias. I loved how Joel was concerned about Ellie and tries to light the mood and keep her busy with the things she liked and making sarcasm about blowing shit up haha and teared me up so many times. And man Ellie and Bill was not that important AT ALL for the soul of the Last of Us. Its just like a chemical reaction of the two different people haha Bill is paranoid and an asshole and Ellie is angry all the time for not getting serious and by the grief of Riley. Bill never got to grow up as a character in the game, but he did in the show so would never make it out. And just because in the game Bill was a message for Joel and how Joel would be if he stayed alone for so long time. Bill with Frank mattered, Bill with Ellie don't.
Ellie mentions her survivors guilt over everyone that has died up until this point. He didn't want to add the fireflies that he killed to her guilt. That's why he lied.
He lied because he knows Ellie would have chosen to give her life. Joel knows, Marlene knows, and that's why Joel lies. Ellie knows that she could have made it so there were no more Riley's, Tess's, or Sam's. Joel lies to keep Ellie's favor, because he knows if he tells the truth, Ellie would never forgive him.
@@thefearmakerlive Ellie wouldnt have chosen to give her life if she wasnt filled with trauma after the David episode. She was nowhere near a right mind state to make an honest decision, and they have never told her the possible "cure" will cost her life considering she was making plans what she will do with Joel after the "cure" is made.
@@flowr7068 I don’t really agree. I think the fireflies are in the wrong definitely for not also giving her that decision but I don’t think she would’ve said yes because of David. I think David traumatised her yes. But even if that didn’t happen I think she would’ve said yes because of different trauma. It’s her survivors guilt that started with Riley that would’ve made her said yes, maybe even if she would’ve have said yes with what happened to Riley I think after Sam it just confirms it. She badly wants herself the he the cure and I think she would be willing to do it. But the issue is she is still a kid and she should’ve have this decision in the first place. The least Marlene could’ve done is actually give Ellie the choice if she’s so sure that Ellie would’ve said yes, that way if Ellie agrees so probably would choose to say goodbye to Joel which might’ve made it a bit easier for Joel to process. I think it still would’ve destroyed him and he would do everything to convince her but if he saw Ellie and said goodbye and actually saw that she truly wanted that then I think he would’ve have been in that shock of going on a killing spree to get to her. I don’t think Joel or Marlene are bad people it’s just Marlene and the fireflies decisions lead to a domino affect that got Joel to kill everyone and Joel’s actions now lead to the stuff that happens in the next game/season. They are all just humans who think they’ve made the right choice and none of them are really wrong or right it’s just perspective.
Emotional ending and can feel a disconnect with them at the end. Such a hard choice to make and still wish they could have looked at alternatives for a cure without resorting to killing Ellie even though I get it’s how they play it in the game. Love the beginning intro of the episode. Joel is such in a emotional mess still not dealing with his own trauma. Heard game 2 is divisive so can only imagine how they execute season 2. Great performances from Pedro and Belle! One more thing I wonder if there were other mothers infected who were pregnant or about to give birth
The morality of the ending has been debated ever since the game came out, and if I'm honest, I think it's an irrelevant debate. From the standpoint of a simple moral philosophy, it's pretty easy to determine if Joel's choice was morally sound or reprehensible. Regardless of whether HIS decision to make it personally was selfish, regardless of the fact that he forced the world to continue existing how it is, he did indeed make the morally righteous choice, and it all comes down to something only very subtly acknowledged. Joel says to Marlene it ain't for her to decide Ellie's fate. Marlene then says to Joel it's what she would want and he knows it. There is just one problem with this. Neither of them ACTUALLY know it, because you can't actually truly know someone. Joel says to her it ain't for her to decide and she ripostes that sentiment back to him - only, she DID decide for Ellie. She called the kettle black. She's a hypocrite. She self-righteously tells Joel it ain't for him to decide when she herself made the choice for Ellie, and she did so for one simple reason. That reason has to do with the fact that neither of them actually know what Ellie would choose. In the game Ellie is unconscious when you meet the fireflies. Here, I'm guessing when they stun naded them, the fireflies probably immediately injected Ellie with something to sedate her. So in both cases, they had an opportunity to wake Ellie from an unconscious state, and ask her directly, if she would be willing to end her life to POSSIBLY make a cure. No matter how much Marlene thinks it's what Ellie wants, no matter how much Joel thinks it's what Ellie wants, neither can be sure. There is ALWAYS the possibility - that they wake Ellie up and ask her to sacrifice herself, since she didn't know before that it would cost her her life - and she says no. That chance, was too much for Marlene. She could not risk Ellie actually saying no, so she decided for her. And this is where the morality comes in. In deciding for her, she forced sacrifice on someone who did not openly relinquish their life. Such an action is morally reprehensible. You cannot, under any circumstance, force sacrifice onto someone who doesn't willingly give it, not even if it saves the world. If there was one person who we could cure cancer by taking their life, and they refused, it would be morally unjust to take their life anyways, even to develop a cure. If there person chooses not to sacrifice, than we have to deal with the repercussions of it. Period. If someone doesn't want to sacrifice themselves to save the world, welp, then it looks like the world's ending. A world that would force sacrifice onto a little girl - and went out of its way to deny that little girl the opportunity to openly accept that sacrifice herself - well that world doesn't deserve such a sacrifice. A world that takes sacrifice as it sees fit, is not a world that deserves it. Joel's choice was morally sound, and it was Marlene's choice that was morally reprehensible.
I take Ellie’s silence more as she understands what just happened, and what’s to come and what finding a “cure” could mean for her. A lot to Handle for a 13 year old.
The rescue scene, Joel going amok feels like Venom Snake going devil mode in base. Feels like they were stacking how bad Joel is to payoff with the golf scene.
No hate, but it's actually funny how little Jaby remembers the game. Most of the things he said was different was in fact the same as the game lol 😂 but some was different too obviously, that he was right about
I don't think its wrong for Jaby to feel the way he feels about the show, but I do feel that he almost in a way has missed the entire point of the game and the show. Everything in this finale was funneling us into the core point of the series as a whole. The show is about love. In all the ways that entails. And the show did a great job of showing us the beauty of that and also the horrible ugliness of it. I think due to the video game nature of the games some of the significance of what Joel does is lost to the player. Significance that is vitally important come the second game. The show I think does a much better job of showing us how terrifying Joel is without as Jaby put it "going all John Wick". And its going to pay dividends in Season 2 I think. Also as an addendum. I don't think they have pulled back on the violence at all, in some ways its been worse. They have pulled back on the GORE. Two very different things.
I like the point she makes: He allowed himself to enjoy Arcane because he doesn't play league of Legends, hence his removal of having to compare it to something else. TLOU was always cursed to be compared to the videogame because he has preconceived notions and memories. A lot of it is nitpicking really. The irony being lost of him is hilarious though. If he never played the Last of us he would be like the girl in the video.
Isn't it funny, our perception of 1) how much game was left after the David section and 2) where the giraffe sequence is. Once you pass Winter, the end of the game goes boom, boom, boom, done: Giraffe, tunnel, hospital, "Okay." There's a lot of time you can spend between those moments with looking around, including staying as long as you could ever want with the giraffes, which I'm sure many, many of us did. That's my one fault with this episode. It zips along like they were in a competition to check all the boxes, and I think some editorial breathing room would have helped that. Also, in the game there is a definite moment of transition to the finale when you're walking with Joel as Ellie and the final cut scene triggers. Without that feeling of "I'm off the stick now..." there was no sense that this was the final scene. I think the music cue that builds before her "Okay" in the game helps with that anticipation of finality, too. I always took Ellie's distance at the beginning of the chapter as still recovering from David, but they've already traveled from Colorado to Utah. The creators have acknowledged that she's introspective about the journey ending and what her role will be in "finding a cure." What will her future be? That's what has her seeming so inward.
I had the same conclusion. Between all the backstory in the first episode and the two flashback episodes, there's essentially six episodes to cover 20 hours of gameplay, and some of those episodes are shorter than an hour. In a perfect world, I think the season should be 11 or 12 episodes, where each is a full hour. That way, you can do the interesting flashback narratives while also having more of the harrowing actions sequences and elements of the main story that were omitted. But the reality is that shows have limited budgets and production time. If I had to pick between sticking 100% to the original story, or keeping 85% to make room for flashbacks, I'd probably go with the 100% option. Although the flashbacks provided a lot for world building and backstory, I don't think they contributed a lot to the main plot, which is still the best part in my opinion. However, even with the 85% + flashbacks route, it was still a very good adaptation. I can't complain. I still thoroughly enjoyed the show. And frankly, the story in the second game has some pretty significant and unsatisfying plot holes. So if I'm being optimistic, I suppose the showrunners' willingness to make changes could be a good thing for the upcoming seasons.
in the 3rd Act. The Director wanted to convey a feeling of sorrow and conflict weather what is Joel doing is right or wrong and also conflict between Ellie's and Joel's choices that is more complex than showing an action packed 3rd act from the Game.
I think Jaby remembers the game wrong as Ellie was not spunky at all in the car and in the approach to Jackson. Game Ellie was pretty much the same as TV Show Ellie in her demeanor in that you could tell she knew something was off.
I think the Bill and Frank's thing, in my opinion, is that they flipped the narrative role of Bill in that in the game he is more a cautionary tale for Joel. Like, Bill is who Joel is on his way of becoming, someone who by the virtue of refusing to open himself for the people he does care about (Tess and Tommy at the beginning, for example, and Frank in Bill's case) risks alienating himself from them to the degree that all he provides is physical security, which helps them survive but not live. In the show, Bill does open up to Frank, allows himself to do more than survive, and that turns his story into the ideal to which Joel should strive for, where he is not there only to make sure Ellie wakes up and eats and breaths, but also helps her laugh and make connections and be happy. Bill and Frank dying of old age, in peace, lets us know hoping for a good life in their world is not naivete and not everything has to be grey and sad.
When I watched the game play for the first time, the game made a huge impression on me. Additionally, by a Polish UA-camr, who added spice to the game with his balanced comments. The Polish dubbing in the game is also at a fantastic level. I fell in love with this game and this story from the first time I played it. My daughter, who was 13-14 years old at the time, also fell in love with this story. So she also bonded very deeply with Ellie, just as I bonded with Joel, being the father of a child of a similar age. When I heard that the series was being created, I was full of hope, but also fear, because Naughty Dog made a real masterpiece. I was afraid that such a perfect work as the game and its story would not be possible to translate into a TV series. Fortunately, I was wrong. And the beginnings were difficult for me. While Pedro is very much like the game's Joel, I was skeptical about Ellie at the very beginning... However, what Bella did in the series exceeded my wildest expectations. To be honest, for me the series (and the game) are the two best works in the history of cinematography that deserve Oscars... TLoU is definitely a breakthrough game for me. A game that set the bar so high that I will probably never experience such impressions, such emotions again in my lifetime. It was also a great pleasure to watch what you experienced while watching this series. I can only applaud such a reaction... Since I already know this title inside and out, the sight of the "guy" wiping away tears was unexpected for me, but then I remembered what happened to me when I also experienced this story for the first time. .. PS. Sorry for my English :) and good luck with your further reactions. I hope to find in your video library a few other gems of films that are of great importance to me. Kind regards.
There is no doubt that Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself but the choice she needs to make is if she's willing to sacrifice Joel too because if she dies Joel will not be able to handle losing another daughter and will not be able to go on living.
The part where Joel says he was ready and unafraid to end himself is how he so readily dismissed Ellie's likely desire to sacrifice herself. At the time, he was so sure it's what he wanted to do. Ellie too is going through a really rough patch with all this trauma and guilt. I won't say what was the right decision, but if the Fireflies had asked what she wanted to do, Ellie probably wasn't in the right mindset to make that kind of decision. The way Joel saw it, he was just buying her time to find another purpose like he found.
I think there is doubt at that moment over Ellie's wishes. Really, without her explicit consent, they're just guessing. That's why Marlene was as wrong as Joel, because they both took her choice away from her.
Just as a point of interest...Laura Bailey (Voice of Abby from "The Last of Us: Part 2" Game) was one of the nurses assisting with Ellie in the operation scene.
I think it was a calculated decision for the final gunfight to not be harrowing. I think it was cold-blooded and ruthless because--as we'll see going forward--there is another perspective where Joel is the bad guy in this story.
A tough decision for Joel to make, and a philosophical question that has been asked for as long as man can remember. The good of the few or the good of the many? The arguments to let Ellie die are obvious and simple for everyone to see. Her death secures life for everyone else. Ensures no more suffering, ensures nobody else has to die, ensures no more pain and allows the world to return to normal. Now, how can one death compare with all of that? On paper, this is the obvious choice. But the real world isn't written in paper. For one moment, stop and put yourself there. What if potentially saving the world came down to sacrificing an innocent teenager? What if that sacrifice was not even guaranteed to work? Having lost his daughter at the outbreak of the apocalypse, when we meet Joel he is hardened and bitter. By his own admition, he has contemplated suicide at least once. Now pretend you are Joel. You meet this young girl. Over a long, tough time together, you begin to bond with her. You are the one thing to her that she has been missing all her life and she is the same to you. In each other you both finally become whole again after 20 long years of suffering. She makes you smile again, laugh again, she makes your world warmer and brighter. For the first time in two decades, you have a purpose. For the first time in two decades, you don't wake up and go to sleep wishing to die. For the first time in two decades you don't have nightmares about your daughters death, you now dream only of how happy you are gonna make this girl, of how you are going to make her the happiest girl in the world. You finally wake up looking forward to the day, looking forward to making this girl who makes you so happy, happy herself. To protect this girl. That has become your life goal. That is why you were put on this planet. So, you swear to protect her. You swear to succeed Ellie where you failed your own daughter all those years ago. Now here you are. Being asked to sit back whilst she is forced to die for a pipe dream of a cure that may well not even work. In that moment, you have, on one hand, your entire world. The one girl who has become your entire purpose. A sweet girl who has done so much for you and to whom you owe a debt you can never repay, and on the other hand you have shadows. Nameless, faceless people you don't know and never will. People who may, or may not, be better off for the death of that girl who is your world. Now when you put it like that, it's really no choice at all. I can safely say that, in that same position, I would have done exactly what Joel did without a moments hesitation. Its not a rational decision, but it is a decision made with nothing but a deep heart full of love.
For everyone commenting about my comment of Ellie being more upbeat… ya’ll are right. First off, wrong choice of words. And I also remembered it wrong as I mentioned in the video. It’s been a while since I played. I recalled the doubt that Ellie had and how the game ended but for some reason my fallible memory wrote her expression as slightly more positive than it actually was. I attribute this to the more soft expression of Ellie in the game especially in contrast with Bella Ramsey’s portrayals which feels harder. And more is able to be conveyed with an actual actors face than the graphics of ps3 could offer at the time which is the experience that was more impressionable for me. Either way, I stand corrected.
Don’t use remember Ellie didn’t rlly talk much at this part of the game either 6:50
Uh? You wasn't wrong you were right.
i kinda saw the same! game ellie was a touch softer. i loved both
Heil jaby. Jaby always stand corrected
No need to apologize. It was your honest take of the moment. Thanks for the great. Love watching both of your reactions
The Bill and Frank episode reflects this one, especially the letter Bill left to Joel about people worth protecting, their purpose to protect those people, and "God help the mfers that stand in their way."
great coonection
The Kathleen episodes are probably a closer comparison.
@@auggiedoggie4968 I feel like those episodes echo part 2 more. There was lots of foreshadowing for season 2 the whole season though.
Yeah, the Kathleen part of the Kathleen episode is definitely more Part 2 but the Henry and Sam story is very much reflected here. Henry doing "the unforgivable" to save Sam, the same way Joel does here. You're right though also. It is both.
Part of what make this series and the game so great is the foreshadowing and the way that the story beats sorta "rhymes" or is structured like verse. Episode 3 "rhymes" with episode 7 and 9 like you said. What Marlene says to Ellie to convince her that she is trustworthy and also What Kathleen says about fate and Sam in episode 4 and 5 "rhymes" with a lot of David's dialogue in episode 8.
This series is pretty good... :)
@@EnragedDancer I was going to say the same thing. Henry gave up the revolution and that one great man to save Sam and tells Joel that he’s a bad guy because he did a bad thing. when Joel saves Elle over the potential cure a lot of folks look at Joel like he’s a bad guy because he did a bad thing.
Watching the hospital massacre in a room full of people who know nothing about the game and seeing their jaws collectively hit the floor in utter disbelief is one of my favorite tv watching moments of all time.
The lack of Joel violence all season leading up this moment was unquestionably worth the payoff in my humble opinion.
Joel literally tortured people in the previous episode what do you mean lack of violence lol
Honestly, I feel like the way they filmed it was kinda underwhelming.
@@deathswitch2404 It was done in a more realistic fashion. I liked it, honestly. The music choice was solid too, not heroic sounding or anything like that.
@@deathswitch2404 How? Explain yourself.
@@deathswitch2404 I have to agree with you, especially the scene where he left into the elevator, should have been people chasing him and him just barely making it out.
Ellie's voice is so iconic to me, after playing the games several times you can tell its her just by her grunts and panting.
Ashley Johnson in live action honestly looks like she could actually be tv Ellies mom. What a poetic moment for fans, seeing game Ellie give birth to TV Ellie and sort of pass the torch (at least until part 3 comes which I believe it will)
EXACTLY
To be fair there are a LOT of grunts and panting in part 2 lol
@@system0fadowner251 Oh I think its 100% at this point, just look at the sales of Part 1 and Part 2, sky rocketing.. Sonys also pushing for more of their IP's to become series.. I'd say we'll get Part 3 in 2025, with the leaks last time I bet you it will be tight sealed till release day.
@@traviscue2099 yeah true. I hope they can turn horizon into a great show. The story wasn't tlou level but the world and lore would make for a great story setting that they could do so much with.
Achara's opinion on Joel's lying is so on point. I googled her and found that she studied drama. That's probably why she's so good at meticulously analyzing characters.
Achara's nuance knowledge of characterizations translates really good in her explanations and that's why I like to listen to her after watch discussions.
Me too
googled her a "school project" did ya? 🤣 jk
@@sixpathscod2776 Agree in general, even though she missed the traumatized versus moody Ellie
@@bbwng54 she was moody because she new what was coming up ahead
Sounds like Jaby needs to replay the game. He makes some slight misreads on the characters at the end. Ellie was in no way upbeat at the end. She was just as emotionally distant as in the show. She suspects that Joel is lying, and she is trying to come to terms with the person that she loves the most possibly being the one who took away the one thing that she felt would give her life purpose. She’s conflicted, so she just begrudgingly agrees to “accept” his lie. But their relationship has been hit due to this.
After I read your comments n some others I quit watching lol gonna watch other video.
2.30 minutes in
@@yohanespaskal9352 you stopped watching based on people's comments speak volumes about you. Enjoy other shows. Well, until you read the comments.
@@davidnguyen3275 yeah, I watch this Chanel multiple times, and the woman got better insight than that guy so I believed most comment that's people wrote, I came to conclusion, that He react to the show, he played the game before but he didn't get it, I would watch someone who's read the char, subtlety n their arc better.
@@slowodanx nah, I can see it from miles away, since I watch their reaction since eps 1
I initially had a similar feeling about why Ellie was acting odd and being quiet, but then I remembered that she went thru all the horrible things in the last episode. She's still getting over that still.
That's how she was in the game as well. It wasn't only what she went through. The uncertainty of what will happen was also eating at her. She was finally near the end.
@@wizarddragon Normally she would think that they would just take blood ("My blood is medicine" to Sam), not do surgery on her brain. I think they also know that they would remain together afterwards. This makes the moodiness (due to the end of the journey) less likely.
In the end, I think Joel was disassociated, he was killing all those people, who weren't bad people really, and not really thinking about it, he just had to save Ellie, because fuck the world, she IS his world, and he couldn't lose his daughter again.
They kinda are also bad people
@@flowr7068 How so?
@@flowr7068 if they are bad people what then what is Joel? Who was a ruthless raider who killed innocents
@@アキコ2003 They bombed and killed innocent people just because they were associated with Fedra. How can you forget that Tess almost died in the first episode because the Fireflies bombed a damn car.
@@flowr7068 goodjob, you didn't answer my question.
I LOVE that they literally had "Ellie" give birth to Bella as Ellie!
The final word of the season, Ellie's "okay"' feels so completely like she is intentionally trying to internalize Joe's lies as truth even though she recognized the lie for what it was.
what I would liken it to is when a spouse cheats on the other but they've been married for decades.... and one asks the other swear to me u didn't? they say they didn't... but they both know they did. but everyone just kind of wilfully accepts the lie to move forward
Can you Explain me the lie Part in Short ....🙏
@@dukhiinsaan9039 she knows that joel lied about the fireflies, she just goes with it
Anna holding her switchblade to her own neck will haunt me. She was prepared to plunge it into her own neck the moment she thought she’d lost control. I can’t. I seriously can’t with this show. The things parents do for their children. God this show is amazing.
Ellie was feeling down this episode also because of the trauma she experienced in the previous episode with David.
Yea I was surprised they didn’t realize this
I think she was probably experiencing doubts if the world was even worth saving (Edit: After her ordeal with David.). And finding the giraffes restored a bit of hope.
Yeah and it was fantastic acting by Bella, depicting a kid dealing with the trauma and horror Ellie experienced with David. These last 3 eps have earned them that Emmy, and it'll be a crime if they aren't nominated.
Agree
Ummmm yeah, and also cause the journey was ending and she wasn't thinking straight as she was getting closer to the hospital.
Can't believe multiple reactors now have said they're not sure why Ellie is down.
It's fairly obvious why but maybe it's easier to comprehend in the game as there is no weeks wait between episodes, you go straight from Ellie killing David to on the highway in Salt Lake City
as someone who already knew what was coming, i LOVED how they did the hospital scene. the way they made it look like joel was in this, like, haze to get to ellie, seeing everyone not as human beings but just obstacles in his way, and how he just kinda barely starts to realize what he did when he's in the elevator and then when marlene finds him... god it was just so good and pedro did it perfectly
Exactly, at first I thought it was a bit robotic and stiff but then I realized that yea he’s in protecter mode he’s gonna save her and do whatever he has to do. And honestly I liked how he killed the doctor quick cause this isn’t the game and Joel isn’t fuckin around
Joel was like a Savior and a God of Death at the same time
They were going to willingly sacrifice a child for a failed cause, so in a way they weren't ''human'' anymore...blindly ambitious fanatics.
@Rick King 22 The game, the series as whole, have you not paid any attention, or even played the game before making this retarded comment?. 20 years of fighting and they have achieved nothing, heck, Marlene even admitted that much herself in the first episode. This is not to mention that Jackson is proof there is no reason to fight in the first place, that you can settle down and live your lives.
@Rick King 22 Come on, it is SO unlikely that a cure could be developed at this point. There's no proof that Ellie was "immune," no tests were ever done on her. She may have had a mutated strain for all we know. The point is, even if a cure could be made, how would it be able to be produced on a mass scale? There's too many infected left, the world is unable to ve recovered at this point. Ellie was dying for a lost cause. That's the most likely scenario.
You're wondering why ellie acting a bit 'off at the beginning? Hello...did you SEE last weeks episode?
Literally like 😭😭
20:00 The way I saw the Joel Massacre part was he had tunnel vision that whole time. That's why you couldn't really hear the gun shots and only the music.
Ashley Johnson passing the mantle ❤ It's so beautiful and poetic.
It really is ❤
I love that Anna was singing A-ha to Ellie, “The Sun Always Shines On TV.” It’s a nice tie-in to the second game. Different song, but same group and album.
Jaby, I think you're remembering the game differently. This episode was almost a total 1 for 1 from the game. They just added a few more lines of dialog and skipped a major action scene. But Ellie is distrusting of Joel right when she wakes up in the game. The Giraffe scene happens the same way in the game at the same place.
Ellie was NOT upbeat in the car lmao. Nor was she spunky at the end. play the game again. She is full of uncertainty and doubt. And she feels the loss of her purpose.
In the show, Joel's massacre is essentially shot from his perspective. The sound is all muffled & weird a la his other PTSD and/or panic episodes.. He is of a one-track mind & has no connection to what he's doing here.
But when the voices do break through the music & muffled sound... like it did with that one guy he stabbed with Ellie/Anna's switchblade... it was EFFECTIVE.
Once again, I think that holding back on that audio was a great choice :)
No, Ellie was just as depressed in the back of the car in the game as she was in the show.
Even down to the roll over where she’s facing away from Joel 💯
anna cut the umbilical cord with the same knife she killed the infected with, and she couldn't remove the umbilical cord from ellie so the blood could have absorbed that way.
To respond to your recollections of the game, she was very moody in the chapter of the game. I think she was still dealing with the trauma of what David did to her. She didn’t seem moody to me, it was more like she turned inward a bit. Joel tried to keep her distracted, which basically made them switch positions within the relationship. Joel is now the chatty one and Ellie has become more quiet and reserved.
Laura Bailey, who voiced Abby in the sequel game and is also one of the founding members of Critical Role along with Ashley Johnson, played one of the nurses! She's also the creator/voice of Vex'ahlia in "The Legend of Vox Machina" animated series that I know Achara likes!
That dialogue bruhhhh get me , "It wasnt Time that healed that"
Ashley could totally be Bella's mom. Damn good episode, the last two episodes were really good using all the build up from the entire season.
They made really good choices with what roles to put Troy and Ashley in
Ashley Johnson is just a friggin joy in everything. Well, technically not a joy in this lol. More like appropriately heartbreaking and super awesome. That was her first birth scene too!
Fantastic and emotional episode. I like the add when Joel confessed that he tried to kill himself and that he directly says to Ellie that she saved him, had me all teary eyed
A masterpiece of a show amazing the best video game adaption I have ever seen can’t wait for season 2
Witcher series was also a good video game adaptation.
@@The_Beard_Man1. It’s a novel adaptation.
2. The first seasons was pasable-good and the second seasons is below average, third seasons will deviate even more from the source material and will be bad and season four will deviate even more and change the actor, it’s going to be horrible and an insult.
TLOU is the only live action adaptation that you can safely say it’s an amazing adaptation. Sonic is passable, it has bad acting and the writing is noting groundbreaking it’s just passable so TLOU is the only one and hopefully GOW is the second one.
@The Beard Man The Witcher series is butchered by the showrunner & writers. The lead actor Henry Cavill literally left the show bcoz of the deviation from the books. 🤦♂️
Last week was my favourite episode, I was looking forward to it the whole season, but this was one hell of a send off for the season.
Loved the performances and music.
What a great show!
How last ep ended for Ellie is why she’s acting the way she is at the start of this ep, it’s the same way in the game also.
Playing the game and seeing the ep knowing whats gonna happen and still making me awe struck the whole episode is really something.
I never thought that its possible to replicate the feeling of the ending but boy this hits deeper and real.
Never felt this from any other ep of any show
Ellie was acting like that not from anxiety about reaching her destination. It was because of what she just went thru with David and almost getting chipped to pieces. How could you forget that
I really loved the music choice for the hospital scene. I thought it reflected Joel’s internal feelings well the way the show has portrayed him. This isn’t a triumphant moment for him, it’s tense and sad. The music helped me feel the same way. Probably helps that I didn’t play the game but I think it fit this Joel perfect in this scenario.
Loved the discussion. Great catch with the sad music its the same music they used when he was taking her to the lift in the game. They literally mention this in the podcast. they also explain the whole point of ep3 in the ep9 podcast.
I really appreciated yall's conversation after the episode! I share the same opinion as Jaby on the hospital scene along with my feelings on the things the show didn't include, but in its overall form I've had an awesome time with this show. So happy it turned out this way 🙌
Ellie was portrayed just like in the game. She was completely disconnected and zoned out.
In the game, while exploring in the hunter hotel in Pittsburgh, there is an optional dialogue sequence wherein Joel and Ellie come across a couple (who are now corpses) sitting in a bathtub. Ellie comments, "guess they took the easy way out," and Joel responds, "it ain't easy."
"it wasn't time that did it..."
Fuck that got me.
It was almost beat for beat, even shot for shot like the game. Joels action always feels selfish yet justified as a parent. Ellie didn't wake up "joyful" in the car, there was this uncertainty permeating throughout right before Joel lies to her.
I completely agree with Jaby about how this show has set the example of "how to" for all future video game adaptations.
I didn't play the game but really like the way they delivered the finale. They clearly had the intent of making it tragic and sad.. kind of like Joel ending" humanity's last hope." Pedro Pascal's performance during the hospital scene.. omg, give this guy an Emmy. His facial expressions and body movements... feels like he is in some sort of trance, like he is not in control of his body, and is just going with the flow.. but with a vibe of "regret" while doing it.. Love your reactions! can't wait for season 2 so I'm playing part 2 😎😎
Ellie was traumatized because of what she went through with David. The way she was acting was also in the gm
Ellie by this point in the game hadn't killed only 2 people. She had killed dozens. She was a different person from the relatively innocent girl we started with.
@Babylauncher3000 the way you structured the reply I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with what I said....... but yes. In the gm she gets traumatized. She's killed dozens and dozens but it was never this intense and they were clickers. The reason why she stats being quite is because they're trying to make it known that this exact moment is where she crossed the line from an innocent girl to a killer. When she comes across the giraffe it's to deliver a message that's being delivered throughout the entire story. "Look for the light" . Meaning no matter how dark things get look for the positive. After she was traumatized she gets to be a kid again when running to see the giraffe. Even in a dark world such as this there is still beauty to be found of you look for it. Message carries across all of their stories. Joel for example. He lost his daughter and almost killed himself.... was able to find something to live for.
Also about the car reaction from Ellie, it was basically 1 for 1 from how I remember it. Even her turning around to face the opposite direction is the same as in the game. I think in both she was visibly disappointed that there whole journeys purpose really amounted to nothing as well as her being skeptics
The switch between Joel and Ellie's moods between the first couple of episodes and now is amazing. At first Joel was full of despair and cynicism and Ellie was child-like and more upbeat and mouthy, now with everything they've been through Joel has hope and Ellie has lost her innocence and more positive outlook.
Before surgery, you are expected to sit down with the doctor, they would tell you what the plan is, all the risks and then sign as a form of consent. If it is a minor, of course it would be the parents decision (or the kid if they understood). So, the thing they did with Ellie? You can sue the hospital for it, or in this case it is veeeeery understandable that Joel wouldn't want Ellie to go through with it (or at least Joel would want Ellie to know what the doctor is trying to do). Joel is still selfish though :)
On the other hand, vaccines are not easy to make. Just look at the example we had to do to produce a covid vaccine. To us, it seems it was a pretty quick thing to research and produce, but then again we basically have all the resource to make one. In their universe? I bet it's more likely to fail in the first attempt (even if it is possible, they would need to experiment a lot and need to have more subjects like Ellie). So, if Ellie in the end doesn't want to do it, I guess it's okay. Maybe she could wait for a while, and there's likely other people like Ellie. It's like organ donation, it's not enforced, but you are more likely to donate because of morals and principles.
They didn't want her to have a choice. To them she was just a means to the cure. So they didn't care to ask. No wonder Bill loved the world ending ☺️.
What I think it's so fascinating when it comes to the big choice, and what makes it even harder for me personally is that the show keeps showing us that Ellie looks forward to life with Joel after she's done engineering a vaccine. They kept making a point of showing us that Ellie always wanted and hoped for the best of both worlds. For her immunity and her survival to mean something for the greater good AND to continue being a family with Joel. And she never gets to make that choice. The Fireflies never tell her the truth and rush her to surgery and Joel kills all the Fireflies in the hospital trying to get her away from certain death. No one wanted to let her choose just in case she chose the 'wrong' thing (which was different depending who you asked)
that baby's cry after the gunshot to Anna reminds me of the opening track to The Wall by Pink Floyd... immediate tears.
Ashley Johnson’s voice took me back to the gaming moments. Even before revealing her face I could tell who that is.
After it’s all said and done, I still don’t see the Episode 3 concerns. I think Bill and Frank’s story basically served as the thesis statement for the show. I don’t see why putting in Game Bill would really improve the show other than just being like the game. I don’t see a qualitative improvement from that choice. Just a difference choice.
I love the song they played during the giraffe scene is the exact same song as in the game. Such an iconic scene.
i'm really glad the both of you addressed and understood both sides of the dilemma presented by the game's ending - and more specifically joel's decision
it's so infuriating listening to reactors (to both the show and the game) go to hell and back to defend one side of the coin and come up with any and all justifications to minimize the effects that decision has to the other side
I think you’re misremembering the game, Ellie was the same in both here. She was down in the beginning after the previous events, and she didn’t trust Joel fully at the end either
She's quiet because she's just been through a horrific trauma.
To me, Joel is aware that her encounter with David in the last episode affected her greatly and was just trying to draw her out as best as he could.
(NON PLAYER POV) Gosh, I just finished watching this ep. Damn, it's so hard. I mean, I really hate moral dilemmas. If it comes to a point when something can't be agreed upon, I'd do what I think is right, you do what you think is right. Marlene did what she thought was right, but Joel did what he felt was right.
Even though Ellie felt that the Fireflies are good people because of Riley, Someone needs to knock to her head that what happened was a tragedy and her life is much more precious than a sacrifice. People lived without a cure, Ellie doesn't need to die for a cure. it's not worth it.
If it's her decision that's one thing, but they didn't give her the chance to make the decision. And they didn't give Joel any other choice but to fight or leave her to die without having the chance to make the decision for herself.
keep in mind, the doctors and people there aside from Marlene don't know Ellie, even Marlene doesn't know Ellie like Joel does. To Joel its probably obvious that Ellie would have chosen to die for a chance at a cure. But to the Fireflies even Marlene, Ellie is a kid, and you are trusting potentially the future of humanity to the whims of a teenage girl. Everyone here was making a choice that was right and logical to them, a choice born out of love. But actions always have consequences, Marlene got to see before she died the consequences of hers, as did the rest of the Fireflies. What will the consequences be for Joel I wonder?
@@darkguardian50 I just learned, thanks to effin yt, joel will be killed, so yeah
Really enjoyed this discussion!
Marlene underestimated the connection Joel had made with Ellie, that's why she only sent Joel away with two Fireflies.
I literally just finished it, and your video notification popped up.
Marlene spent zero time with Ellie growing up. She dropped her off as an orphan infant at FEDRA's boston school. It's why Ellie didn't recognize her. Ellie never saw outside of that school until Riley snuck her out, which was what, 6 months ago? She had no life experience outside of that. She was also utterly traumatized, suffering from abandonement issues and PTSD from the last 6 months, and in no way in a stable mental capacity to choose to give up her life for "humanity". Humanity to that point had made her feel like she was worthless outside of being a possible cure. She wasn't thinking about losing Joel at the beginning of the episode. She was literally depressed and traumatized from nearly being raped and eaten by a cannibal she then had to kill up close and personally.
As I was listening to you talk about what you wanted in the show I was thinking about much more all those things would have cost. When a show is sold they are given a price of how much they thing the show will make verus what it will do. So, HBO gave them money on the hopes that it would be a hit. How much that was and how much it cost to make the series are different that video game budgets. I'm hoping with the views of this season they will be given a bigger budget for seasson 2. So, what more of the things you were talking about could be fleshed out.
Something cool about this episode... ellies mom is Pike from Vox Machina and one of the nurses in the room with Ellie was Vex from Vox Machina.
Vex is also Abby from TLOU2 the game.
I like that Joel gave them 3 chances to let Ellie go, they only let her go the 3rd time time after he popped someone first. In the game you can just come in kill everyone.
Joel prevented a cure from materializing. I wouldn't speak highly of him.
Let go if the bill stuff jeez. Jaby definitely one of those who the themes of the game went over his head lol
At the end of episode 3 there was a message to Joel in the letter to keep pushing forward and to get to where Ellie needed to go
Yea and a very important line in there too "God help any motherfucker who stands in our way". Joel really took that to heart.
Joel isn’t lying to protect Ellie. He’s lying to protect himself. He can’t bear to lose another daughter. And as much as I loved Ellie and Joel’s developing relationship, it feels like it’s now strayed into desperate need on Joel’s part. He’s going to hurt people-not just to protect Ellie, but to protect himself from being retraumatized. That’s eventually got a very good chance of turning into resentment.
Yes in all the podcasts they say their message for the show in every episode was to show the bad side or more complicated side of love. That there is actually a bad/complicated side. They said it was always meant to have a subversive message about love and how it can pit us against everyone else and what and who they love.
6:30 I could be the trauma of almost being raped by a cannable and then having to make him into cube steak for the rest of the village.
It's definitely not moodiness on behalf of Bella. She's emoting trauma after her experience with David. At least that's how I read it.
As a parent i can honestly say i would probably make the same choice as Joel.
They hit all of the important points from the game in this episode. It was beautifully done.
Anna lied to Marlene to save her daughter just like Joel lied. Sometimes-as the showrunners said -that's the light and dark of what love is and what you're capable of doing for someone you love.
Laura Bailey had a cameo too. She was one of the nurses.
I like how brutal Joel is, Mal Reynoldsy! She’s his new purpose he won’t let her go.
So cool to see Ashley play Anna aka Ellie’s mom, having game Ellie birth her show counterpart is so poetically beautiful to me but in terms of Joel’s decision and actions at the end to me they are completely justified, as a father myself I would’ve done the same to get to either of my daughters especially after what the Fireflies have done in the name of ‘revolution’
Ellie was traumatized and lost in her head. The innocence was losing and the giraffe was a sign that it aint easy but it will get easier. She is still her but now seeing the cool and awful sides of life.
And actually Joel was having a dissociation stress wich is how people who suffered huge traumatic events before usually works.
He is capable of doing impulsive acts and even not realize at the time exactly. The thing about he's done in the past when Sarah died and the things Marlene knew about Joel through Tommy and Tess.
And the things were really bad enough to make those people fear Joel or see even as someone to keep away for knowing that he can dissociate like that sometimes. Poor Robert of episode 1 scared to death haha
The approach of this scene in the hospital was to show in the eyes of Joel how he was about to burn his soul for not having his daughter die again and it was so sad to see how he was so precisely at everything like he was possessed but the old Joel that he was trying to let go.
You could see in his face while fear and love could give you wings. Almost like a dream or something.
He's not this baddass hero and superhuman skilled, he is simply a man with luck, and it is gonna run out.
The fireflies were just following orders and didn't need to be shown like a spectacle action sequence, just the bodies had more emphasis.
This is how a stereotyped action scene was actually viewd as a sad and heartbreaking moment. A broken guy trying to make things right when he couldn't.
To people who keep saying that wanted more action and infected in the show are so annoying and don't get how Joel and Ellie are so much the whole important thing and how even when they try to say "I love you" is totally different for not just simply saying as a normal thing to expect in our day to day. Every episode had their purpose til the very end for a reason.This is not a game, is a complicated love story about how scary, beautiful and ambiguous can be by two broken individuals, in both medias.
I loved how Joel was concerned about Ellie and tries to light the mood and keep her busy with the things she liked and making sarcasm about blowing shit up haha and teared me up so many times.
And man Ellie and Bill was not that important AT ALL for the soul of the Last of Us. Its just like a chemical reaction of the two different people haha Bill is paranoid and an asshole and Ellie is angry all the time for not getting serious and by the grief of Riley. Bill never got to grow up as a character in the game, but he did in the show so would never make it out. And just because in the game Bill was a message for Joel and how Joel would be if he stayed alone for so long time.
Bill with Frank mattered, Bill with Ellie don't.
Dude...+1
@@Emveedee89 what do you mean?
Great comment!
@@Emveedee89 oh yeah, The Last of Us is sooo fascinating right? So much to uncover.
Marlene didn’t watch Ellie grownup. She dropped her off at fedra and Ellie was an orphan. Joel knows Ellie more than Marlene knows Ellie
Ellie mentions her survivors guilt over everyone that has died up until this point. He didn't want to add the fireflies that he killed to her guilt. That's why he lied.
He lied because he knows Ellie would have chosen to give her life. Joel knows, Marlene knows, and that's why Joel lies. Ellie knows that she could have made it so there were no more Riley's, Tess's, or Sam's. Joel lies to keep Ellie's favor, because he knows if he tells the truth, Ellie would never forgive him.
@@thefearmakerlive Ellie wouldnt have chosen to give her life if she wasnt filled with trauma after the David episode. She was nowhere near a right mind state to make an honest decision, and they have never told her the possible "cure" will cost her life considering she was making plans what she will do with Joel after the "cure" is made.
@@flowr7068 I don’t really agree. I think the fireflies are in the wrong definitely for not also giving her that decision but I don’t think she would’ve said yes because of David. I think David traumatised her yes. But even if that didn’t happen I think she would’ve said yes because of different trauma.
It’s her survivors guilt that started with Riley that would’ve made her said yes, maybe even if she would’ve have said yes with what happened to Riley I think after Sam it just confirms it. She badly wants herself the he the cure and I think she would be willing to do it. But the issue is she is still a kid and she should’ve have this decision in the first place.
The least Marlene could’ve done is actually give Ellie the choice if she’s so sure that Ellie would’ve said yes, that way if Ellie agrees so probably would choose to say goodbye to Joel which might’ve made it a bit easier for Joel to process. I think it still would’ve destroyed him and he would do everything to convince her but if he saw Ellie and said goodbye and actually saw that she truly wanted that then I think he would’ve have been in that shock of going on a killing spree to get to her.
I don’t think Joel or Marlene are bad people it’s just Marlene and the fireflies decisions lead to a domino affect that got Joel to kill everyone and Joel’s actions now lead to the stuff that happens in the next game/season. They are all just humans who think they’ve made the right choice and none of them are really wrong or right it’s just perspective.
Emotional ending and can feel a disconnect with them at the end. Such a hard choice to make and still wish they could have looked at alternatives for a cure without resorting to killing Ellie even though I get it’s how they play it in the game. Love the beginning intro of the episode. Joel is such in a emotional mess still not dealing with his own trauma. Heard game 2 is divisive so can only imagine how they execute season 2. Great performances from Pedro and Belle! One more thing I wonder if there were other mothers infected who were pregnant or about to give birth
The morality of the ending has been debated ever since the game came out, and if I'm honest, I think it's an irrelevant debate. From the standpoint of a simple moral philosophy, it's pretty easy to determine if Joel's choice was morally sound or reprehensible. Regardless of whether HIS decision to make it personally was selfish, regardless of the fact that he forced the world to continue existing how it is, he did indeed make the morally righteous choice, and it all comes down to something only very subtly acknowledged.
Joel says to Marlene it ain't for her to decide Ellie's fate. Marlene then says to Joel it's what she would want and he knows it. There is just one problem with this. Neither of them ACTUALLY know it, because you can't actually truly know someone. Joel says to her it ain't for her to decide and she ripostes that sentiment back to him - only, she DID decide for Ellie. She called the kettle black. She's a hypocrite. She self-righteously tells Joel it ain't for him to decide when she herself made the choice for Ellie, and she did so for one simple reason. That reason has to do with the fact that neither of them actually know what Ellie would choose.
In the game Ellie is unconscious when you meet the fireflies. Here, I'm guessing when they stun naded them, the fireflies probably immediately injected Ellie with something to sedate her. So in both cases, they had an opportunity to wake Ellie from an unconscious state, and ask her directly, if she would be willing to end her life to POSSIBLY make a cure. No matter how much Marlene thinks it's what Ellie wants, no matter how much Joel thinks it's what Ellie wants, neither can be sure. There is ALWAYS the possibility - that they wake Ellie up and ask her to sacrifice herself, since she didn't know before that it would cost her her life - and she says no. That chance, was too much for Marlene. She could not risk Ellie actually saying no, so she decided for her. And this is where the morality comes in.
In deciding for her, she forced sacrifice on someone who did not openly relinquish their life. Such an action is morally reprehensible. You cannot, under any circumstance, force sacrifice onto someone who doesn't willingly give it, not even if it saves the world. If there was one person who we could cure cancer by taking their life, and they refused, it would be morally unjust to take their life anyways, even to develop a cure. If there person chooses not to sacrifice, than we have to deal with the repercussions of it. Period. If someone doesn't want to sacrifice themselves to save the world, welp, then it looks like the world's ending. A world that would force sacrifice onto a little girl - and went out of its way to deny that little girl the opportunity to openly accept that sacrifice herself - well that world doesn't deserve such a sacrifice. A world that takes sacrifice as it sees fit, is not a world that deserves it.
Joel's choice was morally sound, and it was Marlene's choice that was morally reprehensible.
Jaby needs a replay of the game 😅 giraffe scene was actually at the end of the game. Chapter “Bus Depot”
It's an interesting (and fortunate) coincidence that the actress who voiced Ellie actually has a physical resemblance to Bella Ramsey.
I take Ellie’s silence more as she understands what just happened, and what’s to come and what finding a “cure” could mean for her. A lot to Handle for a 13 year old.
The giraffes come after David at the beginning of Spring just like game. The giraffes are a late game part in SLC.
The rescue scene, Joel going amok feels like Venom Snake going devil mode in base. Feels like they were stacking how bad Joel is to payoff with the golf scene.
No hate, but it's actually funny how little Jaby remembers the game. Most of the things he said was different was in fact the same as the game lol 😂 but some was different too obviously, that he was right about
I don't think its wrong for Jaby to feel the way he feels about the show, but I do feel that he almost in a way has missed the entire point of the game and the show. Everything in this finale was funneling us into the core point of the series as a whole. The show is about love. In all the ways that entails. And the show did a great job of showing us the beauty of that and also the horrible ugliness of it. I think due to the video game nature of the games some of the significance of what Joel does is lost to the player. Significance that is vitally important come the second game. The show I think does a much better job of showing us how terrifying Joel is without as Jaby put it "going all John Wick". And its going to pay dividends in Season 2 I think.
Also as an addendum. I don't think they have pulled back on the violence at all, in some ways its been worse. They have pulled back on the GORE. Two very different things.
I like the point she makes: He allowed himself to enjoy Arcane because he doesn't play league of Legends, hence his removal of having to compare it to something else. TLOU was always cursed to be compared to the videogame because he has preconceived notions and memories. A lot of it is nitpicking really. The irony being lost of him is hilarious though. If he never played the Last of us he would be like the girl in the video.
Isn't it funny, our perception of 1) how much game was left after the David section and 2) where the giraffe sequence is. Once you pass Winter, the end of the game goes boom, boom, boom, done: Giraffe, tunnel, hospital, "Okay."
There's a lot of time you can spend between those moments with looking around, including staying as long as you could ever want with the giraffes, which I'm sure many, many of us did. That's my one fault with this episode. It zips along like they were in a competition to check all the boxes, and I think some editorial breathing room would have helped that.
Also, in the game there is a definite moment of transition to the finale when you're walking with Joel as Ellie and the final cut scene triggers. Without that feeling of "I'm off the stick now..." there was no sense that this was the final scene.
I think the music cue that builds before her "Okay" in the game helps with that anticipation of finality, too.
I always took Ellie's distance at the beginning of the chapter as still recovering from David, but they've already traveled from Colorado to Utah. The creators have acknowledged that she's introspective about the journey ending and what her role will be in "finding a cure." What will her future be? That's what has her seeming so inward.
One of the most incredible show and video game I’ve ever experienced.
thats the "Ellie" Voice actress.
damn!!!!! thats why i recognize the voice.
then that episode 8 is the one who played the voiced actor of "Joel"
I had the same conclusion. Between all the backstory in the first episode and the two flashback episodes, there's essentially six episodes to cover 20 hours of gameplay, and some of those episodes are shorter than an hour. In a perfect world, I think the season should be 11 or 12 episodes, where each is a full hour. That way, you can do the interesting flashback narratives while also having more of the harrowing actions sequences and elements of the main story that were omitted. But the reality is that shows have limited budgets and production time. If I had to pick between sticking 100% to the original story, or keeping 85% to make room for flashbacks, I'd probably go with the 100% option. Although the flashbacks provided a lot for world building and backstory, I don't think they contributed a lot to the main plot, which is still the best part in my opinion. However, even with the 85% + flashbacks route, it was still a very good adaptation. I can't complain. I still thoroughly enjoyed the show. And frankly, the story in the second game has some pretty significant and unsatisfying plot holes. So if I'm being optimistic, I suppose the showrunners' willingness to make changes could be a good thing for the upcoming seasons.
in the 3rd Act. The Director wanted to convey a feeling of sorrow and conflict weather what is Joel doing is right or wrong and also conflict between Ellie's and Joel's choices that is more complex than showing an action packed 3rd act from the Game.
I think Jaby remembers the game wrong as Ellie was not spunky at all in the car and in the approach to Jackson. Game Ellie was pretty much the same as TV Show Ellie in her demeanor in that you could tell she knew something was off.
8:08 Nabo the giraffe, stole that scene.
I think the Bill and Frank's thing, in my opinion, is that they flipped the narrative role of Bill in that in the game he is more a cautionary tale for Joel. Like, Bill is who Joel is on his way of becoming, someone who by the virtue of refusing to open himself for the people he does care about (Tess and Tommy at the beginning, for example, and Frank in Bill's case) risks alienating himself from them to the degree that all he provides is physical security, which helps them survive but not live. In the show, Bill does open up to Frank, allows himself to do more than survive, and that turns his story into the ideal to which Joel should strive for, where he is not there only to make sure Ellie wakes up and eats and breaths, but also helps her laugh and make connections and be happy. Bill and Frank dying of old age, in peace, lets us know hoping for a good life in their world is not naivete and not everything has to be grey and sad.
Oh fuck! I just thought about it. Joel's hearing is probably bad on his right side from the gun going off right next to his ear
When I watched the game play for the first time, the game made a huge impression on me. Additionally, by a Polish UA-camr, who added spice to the game with his balanced comments. The Polish dubbing in the game is also at a fantastic level. I fell in love with this game and this story from the first time I played it. My daughter, who was 13-14 years old at the time, also fell in love with this story. So she also bonded very deeply with Ellie, just as I bonded with Joel, being the father of a child of a similar age.
When I heard that the series was being created, I was full of hope, but also fear, because Naughty Dog made a real masterpiece. I was afraid that such a perfect work as the game and its story would not be possible to translate into a TV series. Fortunately, I was wrong. And the beginnings were difficult for me. While Pedro is very much like the game's Joel, I was skeptical about Ellie at the very beginning... However, what Bella did in the series exceeded my wildest expectations.
To be honest, for me the series (and the game) are the two best works in the history of cinematography that deserve Oscars...
TLoU is definitely a breakthrough game for me. A game that set the bar so high that I will probably never experience such impressions, such emotions again in my lifetime.
It was also a great pleasure to watch what you experienced while watching this series. I can only applaud such a reaction... Since I already know this title inside and out, the sight of the "guy" wiping away tears was unexpected for me, but then I remembered what happened to me when I also experienced this story for the first time. ..
PS. Sorry for my English :) and good luck with your further reactions. I hope to find in your video library a few other gems of films that are of great importance to me.
Kind regards.
Joel was like a savior and a grim reaper at the same time.
I love that the voice actor and Bella Ramzy looks so much alike. Like a mother and daughter.
There is no doubt that Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself but the choice she needs to make is if she's willing to sacrifice Joel too because if she dies Joel will not be able to handle losing another daughter and will not be able to go on living.
The part where Joel says he was ready and unafraid to end himself is how he so readily dismissed Ellie's likely desire to sacrifice herself. At the time, he was so sure it's what he wanted to do. Ellie too is going through a really rough patch with all this trauma and guilt. I won't say what was the right decision, but if the Fireflies had asked what she wanted to do, Ellie probably wasn't in the right mindset to make that kind of decision. The way Joel saw it, he was just buying her time to find another purpose like he found.
I think there is doubt at that moment over Ellie's wishes. Really, without her explicit consent, they're just guessing. That's why Marlene was as wrong as Joel, because they both took her choice away from her.
Great reaction yall!!
Just as a point of interest...Laura Bailey (Voice of Abby from "The Last of Us: Part 2" Game) was one of the nurses assisting with Ellie in the operation scene.
I think it was a calculated decision for the final gunfight to not be harrowing. I think it was cold-blooded and ruthless because--as we'll see going forward--there is another perspective where Joel is the bad guy in this story.
A tough decision for Joel to make, and a philosophical question that has been asked for as long as man can remember. The good of the few or the good of the many?
The arguments to let Ellie die are obvious and simple for everyone to see. Her death secures life for everyone else. Ensures no more suffering, ensures nobody else has to die, ensures no more pain and allows the world to return to normal. Now, how can one death compare with all of that? On paper, this is the obvious choice. But the real world isn't written in paper.
For one moment, stop and put yourself there. What if potentially saving the world came down to sacrificing an innocent teenager? What if that sacrifice was not even guaranteed to work?
Having lost his daughter at the outbreak of the apocalypse, when we meet Joel he is hardened and bitter. By his own admition, he has contemplated suicide at least once.
Now pretend you are Joel. You meet this young girl. Over a long, tough time together, you begin to bond with her. You are the one thing to her that she has been missing all her life and she is the same to you.
In each other you both finally become whole again after 20 long years of suffering. She makes you smile again, laugh again, she makes your world warmer and brighter. For the first time in two decades, you have a purpose. For the first time in two decades, you don't wake up and go to sleep wishing to die. For the first time in two decades you don't have nightmares about your daughters death, you now dream only of how happy you are gonna make this girl, of how you are going to make her the happiest girl in the world. You finally wake up looking forward to the day, looking forward to making this girl who makes you so happy, happy herself. To protect this girl. That has become your life goal. That is why you were put on this planet.
So, you swear to protect her. You swear to succeed Ellie where you failed your own daughter all those years ago.
Now here you are. Being asked to sit back whilst she is forced to die for a pipe dream of a cure that may well not even work.
In that moment, you have, on one hand, your entire world. The one girl who has become your entire purpose. A sweet girl who has done so much for you and to whom you owe a debt you can never repay, and on the other hand you have shadows. Nameless, faceless people you don't know and never will. People who may, or may not, be better off for the death of that girl who is your world.
Now when you put it like that, it's really no choice at all. I can safely say that, in that same position, I would have done exactly what Joel did without a moments hesitation. Its not a rational decision, but it is a decision made with nothing but a deep heart full of love.