Why MIDDLE finger fulcrum is better than INDEX
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- Опубліковано 16 лис 2023
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If you’ve been gripping your sticks with thumb & index, and you’ve hesitated to try middle finger instead because of how weird it feels to you, today’s lesson is for you!
If you only use index finger fulcrum, you’ll never quite be able to achieve the loose, relaxed speed that you can get by switching to middle finger.
But don’t worry, because I’ll show you exactly how to make the switch right now and reap the tremendous speed & fluidity benefits of this game-changing grip. YOU CAN DO THIS!
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I stumbled into this grip by “accident”. Because I am very susceptible to carpal tunnel problems I was forced to go ultra loose with my grip. I went looser and looser, marvelling at how little you actually have to “hold” the stick. And one day I noticed I was using this middle finger fulcrum. I will never go back now because first finger fulcrum just feels so “strangled”now.
So bit of a long story… I’d stopped playing guitar (after more than 20 years as a player) because of carpal tunnel/RSI, which was more from working on the tools than playing instruments, but guitar playing certainly wasn’t helping.
I’d already been a part time drummer for a couple of years, maybe more, at that point. So from there I focused more on drums for a lot of years, even after the (very minor) surgery to correct my wrists (by then my chops on guitar were shot from inability to practise).
I was very lucky to have multiple mates who are all very talented drummers (with appropriate reputations) in my city and all of them went so far out of their way to teach me I was blown away by how supportive the drumming community is. From then, I progressed quicker than I could have expected. One of the first things I was taught was middle finger fulcrum with German grip, to protect my wrists through using movements that followed the natural motion of the wrists as my go to technique. I never once had an issue with playing drums thanks to this.
That was back in 2004 or so. I’m still a drummer, but I picked up my guitars again properly about 2015. I’d never really stopped completely, but I’d been despondent over how bad my technique had suffered from the carpal tunnel and still loved drums so it wasn’t as big a blow to my enjoyment of music, and am still drumming now so it was a trade off that I could live with.
It took me til last year to get to a stage where I feel I’m able to play guitar as good as or better than before the carpal tunnel… but I never stopped drumming. I’ve been drumming for over 20 years and playing guitar for over 30. I’m not the best drummer but I’m not the worst. But I am so grateful to have had those mentors who taught me middle finger fulcrum so early that it did no damage to my wrists.
My advice to anyone with RSI or carpal tunnel; follow the info in the video, learn the stretches properly. Go see an OT, physical therapist or physiotherapist to learn how to do the stretches properly and be vigilant about them. While seeing a specialist about it, have them check your playing ergonomics, to make sure you’re not making “cheat movements” as my physiotherapist calls them that are bad for the body long term.
And get the carpal tunnel or RSI assessed by a specialist in that field, and have the surgery. It’s so minor it can be done under local in a chair if you can stomach it (my surgeon was willing to do this if I’d been game).
Thanks for sharing the info Stephen, keep up the good work.
@@NJB183great story and some excellent advice! Glad you could keep playing... 👍💪🎵🎼
I have big problems with pain in my thumbs! Saw Leprous drummer doing this and thought it might help! Happy to see someone else that it seem to have helped!
After a decade of playing drums, I started taking lessons and the instructor started me on middle finger fulcrum and it changed my game. I feel like I progressed more in one year than I did the previous decade. Beautiful change in my playing. I still pivot to index occasionally as I am playing live gigs, due to the shift of the stick, but when I practice I am always on middle fulcrum.
I was starting to have major thumb pain and then eventually wrist pain, then I started noticing some other drummers were not using Index finger as fulcrum so I tried middle finger and immediately started playing more freely without tension and thus able to play without generating the above mentioned pains. So, I started searching index or middle finger fulcrum and found articles describing all the pains I had been experiencing with index finger fulcrum and then found this video too. I will never look back to using index finger as fulcrum again, except of course for the exception where it may be needed. Thanks for the confirmation!!!!
I've been playing drums for almost 50 years using the index finger fulcrum. I'm going to try this. I had a teacher when I was first learning tell me to grip the sticks tight and don't rely on the bounce which caused my arms to absorb all the impact vibrations. 2 carpel tunnel surgeries and crippling tendonitis caused me to rethink how I was playing. This switch might be the final nail in the coffin for my issues.
Man, you can EXPLAIN! Bravo!
(Pro-Drummer for +30 years, definitely using this technique in loooong/loud gigs)
👍🏽👍🏻👍🏿
What a positive move since changing to middle finger fulcrum. I use it 99% when playing now! The most fundamental change in my 50+ years playing drums… Thank you Stephen!
There is not one method better than the other. Use the technique that fits your morphology and allow you to play accurately, effortless, and rapidly.
We are all different, and what works for someone, does not necessarily work for other people...at least that was I ve seen and experienced over the years!
I switched to middle fulcrum a few years ago, and while it was odd at first, it ultimately feels so much better now. I think it is great to pick a baseline fulcrum to focus on, rather than constantly switching around trying to be perfect, but once you have a preferred fulcrum it can be healthy to experiment with deliberately changing to a different grip to expand your comfort zones. I know as I'm playing live my grip changes from fatigue, sweat, stick shift, etc, so being comfortable playing a variety of methods helps me bridge those moments where I'm not in my comfort zone.
Exactly. Watch Bill Stewart or Ari Hoenig and then talk to me about the “right” technique. Much love to Stephen though, he is an absolute plus to the online teaching community.
This is new for me, but certainly we should use whatever technique fits the purpose - arm, wrist, push/pull, fingers, French, American, matched, traditional - learn and apply them accordingly.
Some mechanics are the same though, so there are def certain techniques that are better than others. But at some point it’s just splitting hairs.
I want to propose something that's even weirder but has worked wonders for me: Gripping the stick from the back fingers. The further up the stick you go, the lighter the grip. You can still use fingers by squeezing them, it's just primarily a wrist technique designed for hard playing. Jim Chapin was a big proponent of this. It feels REALLY good playing music that's not necessarily fast but requires hitting hard consistently.
I think Tony Williams liked that method, as well. I've tried it and can see the value in control. I love middle finger fulcrum, but being able to migrate from one grip to another is helpful during gigs.
@jmfs3497 this. Get familiar with a comfortable grip when you first start, but then learn multiple grips over time for different purposes. I would never use that grip in an orchestra, but French grip with index finger can be wonderful for that.
Hey Stephen and everyone here,
I was a more German grip index guy, when I started out. Worked well for starting. Went into American grip later but still index was the ruling finger.
Now I'm mostly on middle finger. There are still things that work out a bit better with indexes, as they are more used to it.
I started about three months ago to using a middle finger fulcrum. It starts to feel natural now and my mind can think about different things as melody, coordination and orchestration, body position and the names of the cute girls in front row....
I played professionally for a bunch of decades. I’ve suffered from index grip in my playing and physically the entire time. I didn’t make a living because I had great chops, but I made up for it in groove and dynamics. People have always complimented me on my playing, but I new how limited I was and did my best to work around those shortcomings. It’s not fun to feel like a fraud. I’ve delivered thousands of great shows and a whole lot of recording work, but I still feel like an imposter.
So far, with middle finger grip, I drop my sticks over and over. After watching this video, I’m going to work in earnest on it. Thanks for the lesson!
Good gracious, are you me?
I don’t know, I haven’t checked lately!
@@timbranniganmusic3458 Haha you might be! I have never heard anyone else express my impostor syndrome for drumming so acutely as you did. I'm getting better, but I still have it.
Apparently it’s pretty common for musicians, and even a lot of famous people
@@timbranniganmusic3458 I don't doubt it. Mine was same as yours, though. I fudged (or thought I did) by pretending I played what I played bc I chose to, not bc I couldn't play fancier. I can play a *little* fancier now, but mostly accept that I have killer time, and work with that. It's nice that I can say that about myself and know it's true ❤
Yes, ive still have been deveoping this even with French grip but just for developing balance, coordination, and speed. But then take that into the American Grip for practicality - even with lots of finger action. It's just about practice! This grip is great for all aspects of the hand.
really enjoying middle finger fulcrum - still getting used to it but i can tell it will improve my overall feel/fluidity - wish i would've learned this many years ago!!!
thank you
I just had my first drum lesson with a teacher this week after learning independently for about 7 months, and this is the first thing he told me to work on, this video came right in time!
Your advice about grip has really changed my game. You are advocating preferences, without excluding exceptions due to personal physical differences, or particular musical circumstances. I have found limitations of index, and am progressing towards a middle ground of somewhere between index and middle. But honestly, some of my favorite drummers are clearly on the middle finger. The best approach is be aware, and that's what I feel your videos do so well. Kudos.
Again I say Wow! You are becoming my new hero. I am self taught (without any kind of a mentor). After watching your video on tom placement I raised my throne and it was amazing. Now after watching this video I had to go upstairs and sit behind my kit to find out what grip I actually used. Well it was index finger. So I tried middle finger and played a little bit, what a difference. Doubles just flowed out of my hands whereas before it has always been a struggle, and mostly reverted to bouncing to achieve anything close to a double. Thank you. This could be what I needed to break through and become better.
im trying it...ill let you know in a couple weeks..thank you for teaching so clearly
Yes! Something amazing is happening!! Thank you!
I have made it a point to get as comfortable I can with index and middle fulcrum in french american and german grip. They're all good tools to have, but if you've really got your stick control right they're almost a comfort/preference thing, because you absolutely can play hard with french or soft with german. It is just harder to do at first. I can't really use the last two fingers on my left hand, so that one doesn't much like doing middle finger fulcrum so that one often uses index. It looks weird at times, my "matched" grip almost never matches, but hey it works. Stupid nerve damage.
Definitely gonna work it for a while. Thx
You are a blessing to us all Stephen!
This is easily a game changer. I came up with the Ludwig book on how to hold the sticks. Then YT came along and I saw great drummers playing with their index finger disengaged and flopping to the side. There are many ways to hold the sticks under many circumstances but middle finger fulcrum is the go to grip.
Damn, I was just thinking about it. I've been watching your grip technique videos, and couldn't find any more information about it and this just fell on my lap as I started to include more middle finger but didn't know exactly how to do it correctly. Thank you so much.
Oh, me too.
Yes, making the switch, thanks!🥁
Thanks so much. I was using the index finger pinch grip and I just couldn’t control my basic rudiments especially with accents. This middle finger grip gave me so much more control almost right away. Great instruction….
when i learned most drummers cross stick because most have a weaker left hand, i was determined to strengthen my left hand, since i was starting from scratch. Thank you for all the great tips. ill work on correcting this too now.
I started watching your videos about 2 weeks ago and started playing 5 days ago. I'm glad I am starting out with this grip, my right hand feels totally natural and relaxed. The left is still a bit clumsy, it feels good at times but kind of rolls out of position a lot.
Congrats on going over 200k subs!!! Stay at it!!
An excellent post. Thank you for mentioning the people that do four hour a night gigs. I did four hours a night six a nights a week gigs for years and in my youth did four and then went and did another four sometime at an after hours club and never had an injury of any kind. Soft jazz country ear bleed rock. Great technique and keeping in good shape is everything. The hardest part was fatigue or coming down with the latest crud that was going around. You can't call in sick if there is no one to take your place and you need to stay employed. Honestly, put a bucket behind the stage if you have to. Anyway, I started with the thumb pointer finger but over time without giving it much thought went thumb middle because it was just a little bit less effort when I was trying to conserve energy and pace myself for the next five night. I switch back and forth subconsciously and probably if you have to think about it your probably not a very seasoned player yet. One of the worst things possibility because I had the sticks in my hand for so many hours that my skin would have a reaction the finish on the sticks and I would get sores. That's great intensive to be able to switch to a different finger. Good luck to all you young ones. Play relaxed. Have fun!!!
Excellent! Thank you!
i just started this Wednesday, purchased a 8 inch Remo Practice pad and stand. Vater hickory 5A, and pro-mark Neil Pert oak wood sticks. and started watching your videos. i naturally stared with the Middle finger fulcrum.
im going to watch most your videos this weekend!
Dont overload yourself with to much at once. Take it more like a once a week drum teacher lesson
Keep it up. I was sitting where you are a couple months ago. I still don't own any drums, but I've got my fundamentals (grip styles, fulcrums, timekeeping, dynamics, subdivisions, singles, doubles, paradiddles, flams) on lock at any reasonable speed, and my rudiments are getting there too. Give it all you can but don't overdo it. Master the basics before you even try messing with anything else. You'll appreciate that later.
The easy way to prove this to yourself is the on the pad play doubles and swab between index finger and second finger and you will instantly feel/see/hear which gets two easier, even,better sounding strokes.
15:50 I'm of the same mindset. I've played since I was a kid, and I could have saved myself so many blisters and bruises, pain and blood from playing intense shows and rehearsal if I'd played like this. My original teacher played Jazz, so he'd never play with the kind of full arm motions I was doing in metal bands. I guess I was told it was bad technique to play any other way than with index fulcrum. Great video, thanks
Switched about a dozen years ago, i highly recommend it too. I sometimes use index finger as well but probably 10% of the time. I played with index for 20 years before the switch.
Thanks a lot @StephenClark - did try it today and it's going on quite well, however I am struggling a bit with the index finger placement ... I see it should be slightly below the stick but for me it's currently rather parallel. Also, the stick in still moving "up knuckles" automatically ... practice practice practice ...
Actually most people find the forefinger fulcum better for all forms of soft playing. But im finding more fluid transitioning from singles into louder doubles & buzzes to be better with the middle finger fulcrum. It's all about training your hands!
Watched your video. Made sense. Went to my practice pad. Picked up sticks and found I naturally grip with middle finger fulcrum without even realising. Cheers. 😂
Played index when I started, forced myself to practice pad work with middle finger until i felt comfortable with the kit. Now i can't go back. It really is a game changer.
I tried and it feels interesting. Glide a bit forward on the stick and press rolls feels strange but I will give it time.
Learned this from a teacher couple years ago, complete game changer, but im struggling with doubles
Weird thing is when I was 12 I had an accident where my R hand index tip was cut off (sorta like Tony Iommi's incident) my main instrument is Guitar but I've play drums starting around 12... 50 years later... it was mostly guitar, but when I got a E-kit (V6) to do some recording with years back, and now got a Premier 8pc kit setup in my studio, ANYWAY I'm picking up the sticks in this video lesson and finding I already grip this way for me it came more natural. NOT a pro Drummer but I do okay to get my music down and even play the easy ones.
So I'm trying to do this. I am getting that thumb pain where I've never had that before. I will try this for a while. Hopefully, the pain will go away and I'll get it.
Well, I have no idea if I'll switch to the middle finger... but I'm definitely about to walk downstairs and try it immediately!
I did something weird once and I wondered if ppl use this for drumkit. My N. Texas schooled-drummer friend said what I had showed him was a sort of a marimba/vibraphone mallet grip where I would put the stick between my first and second fingers.... holding the stick like normal but instead of it extending out from the hand from between thumb and first finger, i would have it come out between 1st and 2nd finger... with my hands in a German-favored American-sorta position. I called it the Wolverine grip lol. I did it because after hours of practice, my first finger was getting sore at the fulcrum point, but i wanted to keep playing so i put the stick between the next set of fingers. I was amazed at the control and power I had... i wondered if anyone did this... or am I some kind of freak? haha. Essentially what i ended up with is the 2nd finger fulcrum you talk about, but instead of having my first finger remain on the bottom of the stick with all the other fingers, i brought it to the top along with my thumb. Love the channel btw!
What practice pad are you using? Thanks so much for this tip... I have pain in my thumbs. I'll definitely give this a try.
You just convinced me to stick with index finger tecnique, lol. Im a metal drummer though, and i try to use finger tecnique (what you said isnt that practical) as much as possible to save my wrist. I dont understand how elimimating a finger and all the extra muscle i get with it would make my wrist hurt less; unless i was using too much wrist to begin with.
How did i miss this?
Ok im in.
Index fulcrum makes my hand cramp
Best teacher for drums on UA-cam thanks Stephen clark
Hey Stephen, I am curious when you made the change over and what convinced you to change. I looked at a video from 4 years ago and it looks like you're describing index finger fulcrum grip. Also what to do with that index finger while using the middle finger grip? I tried this at my last rehearsal and you're right I can sure play faster! It still feels a little awkward though. Respectfully.
Important question:
Does the middle finger fulcrum work well with Push-pull technique?
Just to enforce the pedigree of this approach: This grip approach is the basis of the Murray Spivack Method -- whose students included Louie Bellson, Remo Belli, David Garibaldi, William Kraft, Alan Maitland, Jim Banks, Chad Wackerman and Joe Morello.
Hey Steven! Thanks for the video. I would like to ask whether index finger is kind of touching the stick (even very lightly) or is fully separated when playing middle finger approach? Many thanks for clarifying
I just started drumming at the age of 50, and I didn't notice what finger I was using until this video but it was the middle because a callus is starting to form there..
Double stoke roll: Middle finger fulcrum for Moeller technique. What about Open Close, Release and Catch or Push Pull? Better with index or middle?
I see G.L. Stone on top of the book stack . What other stick wisdom is in the library? Thank you for the lesson.
There's nothing wrong with the middle finger fulcrum, but it's sort of a half-measure. I'm not sure there's anything it is "best" at. If there's a context where it beats the first finger fulcrum, then the rear fulcrum (last two fingers, Tony Williams style) should be an even better choice. And the corollary is if there's a context where the middle finger fulcrum beats the rear fulcrum, then the first finger fulcrum should be an even better choice there. I'd just recommend learning first finger and rear fulcrums. Middle finger fulcrum is pretty easy anyway when you get those two down.
NY Phil percussionist Chris Lamb does this. By extension, on of my teachers taught this to me.
Using middle finger grip. It felt weird at first, but feels more natural now.
Ok. How about for double strokes? Do you do those with index since it involves a lot of fingers?
I've played index for 60 + years. I've been trying to switch to the middle finger for about 3 months. Is your rest in line with your arm? Where does the stick cross your palm?
How about when doing push/pull? Is that better with index finger fulcrum?
I will be switching at least trying . I’m older but fairly new drummer
"If you can hit air, you can hit anything." -> Be air, my friend! Joke aside, this sums it up very concisely.
Did you used to work at Sam Ash KOP?
It was odd to discover that naturally, my left hand will prefer middle-finger and my right hand prefers index
I'm the same way. It's a really weird feeling. Naturally my hands kind of prefer an in between, like a three finger fulcrum.
I might experiment with using my middle finger but then what do I do with my index finger?
Muscle in the forearm tightens up when you use your middle finger
What are you supposed to do with your index finger while you're using your middle finger as the fulcrum?
Hey, well, Dave Weckl made the shift.
oh. a lot of my experimenting is done on my leg. so we know that means here- :)
This middle finger is not good for me.Firts i hold sticks very far from the balance point for more power and reaching.Second my right hand play all the time french maybe little american grip.
Aka: Giving that tempo the Bird 🐦
Hard disagree. The middle finger should be supporting the stick behind the fulcrum. If there is no supporting finger then yes, middle finger fulcrum would be better. But supporting the index finger fulcrum with the middle finger MORE than makes up for any advantage when not supporting the grip with either finger.
While there is certainly "different strokes for different folks" in play here, there is not a group of drummers on the planet that exhibit greater speed & control with a more relaxed feel than the drummers involved in the drum and bugle corps activity at the DCI World Class level. The other thing to remember is that this group is fluid, members age out and new members audition in every year. Yet, the speed, control, and dexterity of what is being performed stays the same or bumps up.
Every single one of the players in those lines uses the index-finger fulcrum. Not a single player uses the middle-finger fulcrum. That kind of flies in the face of the middle finger fulcrum being "better".
That's true, but to be fair, they also use traditional grip, which is just worse than matched grip mechanically speaking.
Well, again, you can have your opinion, however:
1- As far as TG being "Inferior mechanically", I would, once again point out that the DCI/WGI lines that use it play faster and with more control than any other group of drummers on the planet. (One of the reasons is that it involves 2-3 times the number of small "fast-twitch" muscles than matched grip does)
2- The right hand in TG is identical to matched grip, and the fastest drummers around use it exclusively with the first finger fulcrum.
3- Most of the SD lines play matched grip during the shows as well.
4- The tom players all play matched grip exclusively and play just as fast and just as controlled as the snare lines, often playing the same parts spread across 5-6 drums. All of them play matched grip with the first finger fulcrum. None of them use the second finger fulcrum.
So, again, while some players may prefer a second-finger fulcrum, just as some may prefer matched grip to traditional grip and vice-versa, to label the second-finger fulcrum "better" than the first-finger fulcrum simply does not pass the eye test. The fastest group of players we can find all use the first finger.
@@brandtjs The left hand in traditional grip is the problem, not the right hand. Drum corp snare drummers play really technically challenging things despite their left hand being at a disadvantage. My point is that you can't say what they do is best just because what they play is so hard. Plenty of players across all instruments play with amazing technical ability with less then ideal technique. I agree that index finger fulcrum is better; I was just poking fun at your logic is all.
@@joeycraighead5595 Your assertion that the left hand in traditional grip is somehow deficient simply doesn't hold water. But, that is another discussion.
What I pointed out was that when playing matched grip (including the right hand in TG) the fastest group of players on the planet use the first finger fulcrum, not the second finger.
And, that being the case, we simply have no evidence to suggest that the second finger fulcrum is "correct" as the video states and the first-finger fulcrum is deficient when we can all witness the playing of hundreds of drummers every year in DCI/WGI playing faster and more controlled passages while using the first-finger fulcrum exclusively than drummers anywhere else using the second-finger fulcrum.
DCI/WGI is a competitive activity with instructors being paid in the $35-$65k per year range. If they felt that the traditional grip or the first-finger fulcrum was a deficient method of playing, they wouldn't ALL be teaching it, they would teach whatever creates faster and more controlled players. Which is exactly what they do.
Traditional, matched, first finger, second finger...they are all appropriate choices for players to decide on. However, to label the second-finger fulcrum as "correct" when we can all watch hundreds of performers play circles around the rest with regard to speed and control using the first-finger fulcrum does not make any sense whatsoever.
@@brandtjs You obviously didn't actually pay attention to what I said in my last reply and I don't care for actually arguing about this so I'm done. Regardless, I wish you a happy Thanksgiving!
This may be an odd question why are you reading your information from a screen at points? Are you taking this information from an article? I am in no way disagreeing with any of this information or wish to make any attack
Guys be careful with this, what He's saying is INCORRECT. Yes you can use the middle finger to play relax but is not necessary at all You can play as much relax and flow around the drums with your index AND if you use middle finger you probably wont be able to use FINGER TECHNIQUE for fast singles and doubles. (Everybody is different what can works for other don't necessary works for you...Many many legends and famous drummer use index finger and not mid) Plus just watch, the guy can't really play drums, he's just preaching stuff that he can't actually do 💁🏽
Родину не выбирают , в ней живут и умирают.
This is terrible advice. You are getting tired because you're trying to play entirely with your wrists. You should be keeping your hands parallel to the ground and using your remaining fingers to swing and control the stick. Its kind of like slapping your palm with your fingers to drive the stick down, and opening your fist to let it rebound. Using your middle finger as a fulcrum kills any actual power you can create and makes good technique harder.
Absolutely worse advice ever. Doing this basically rules out finger technique down the road. Very disappointed that as an educator you are recommending something that sets people up for failure. By all means make people aware that there's an option and something you can add to your toolkit, but don't recommend it to be the mainstay especially to beginners. It's cool that it works for you, but don't set beginners up for failure down the road.
Many people use middle finger. Rob Brown one of the best drum educators on UA-cam uses the middle finger as a fulcrum to his sticking. hating on new ideas that seem foreign to you is the opposite on how u grow
@esahayes4654 "on UA-cam" lol dom famularo he is not... if you re-read what I said, I'm saying by all means teach that there's another option to add to your toolbag but do not advocate for it to be your main tool, especially to beginners.
The language used in this video isn't "hey here's something for you to try" it's very much more "hey this is the way you should be doing things"
I used to play more middle finger fulcrum, and after working on index fulcrum I now have more control of the sticks. I recommend learning both and using them for different applications!
Read the title and thought shots fired. I was fooled, but in the best way possible😅