jessica was NOT a good mom to neither paul nor alia. she set both of her kids up for a doomed destiny and set them both on a path that took away almost all their own personhood and personal choice. both were thrust into a position they were not meant to be in by her choice, paul being born when he wasn’t supposed to, he was supposed to be a daughter yet she basically created him as her own project and then alia wasn’t meant to be pre born but for her plans so put her child at risk. lady jessica, they could never make me like you!!!!🧌🍅
jessica has no choice even from the very beginning, she was raised bene gesserit from a very young age, brain washed. The best she could do is to prepare Paul and trained him to be strong. Alia's circumstance is not even her fault, she was forced the voice was used on her to drink the worm liquid in which she is hesitant to even drink.
The Bene Gesserit conditioning was too strong, she partially overcame it for Leto and Paul, whit Leto dead and Paul Emperor she returned to the sisterhood, no much of a mother then.
I feel the exact same way, she doesn't get a lot of love. I wish she could live and get the love she deserved. Leto and Ghanima are also preborns but they had each other so they didnt fall into abomination but Alia had no one.
Worse, leto and ghanima could have called their mom for help much earlier, but they chose to let alia fall further under the baron's influence (only other way out of that loneliness), probably to justify seizing the throne from her. The movie version however, comes off as a much darker person to start with
@@TheMarkmcrLeto and Ghanima could have called their mom for help sooner? Are you talking about Chani? Who dead and at one point tried to possess Ghanima? Or are you talking about Lady Jessica? Who only came to Arrakis to spy on Leto II and Ghanima for the Bene Gesserit? Leto II and Ghanima knew of Alia spice addiction. Her constantly going through the spice agony or spice trance. Leto II and Ghanima knew there was nothing they could do to stop it. Ghanima tells The Lady Jessica when they are speaking alone. That Leto II has not become the abomination yet. That she did worry about her brother and crossing over the line.
There was no Alia. She was born with all her anscestors memories before having any of her own. She was an empty shell for a dominant personality to take.
If her own sense of self didn't exist, she'd logically still be alive. I personally believe it's more that she was intentionally letting the baron take control as a substitute for jessica's abandonment of her.
Jessica felt bad at the end of the book because she realized after seeing Leto II and Ghanima who also were abominations were able to overcome them. She felt she could have saved Alia if she didn’t isolate her.
There is a MAX series in the cards this fall, but it's a prequel inspired by something written by the son of Frank Herbert, rather than by "Children of Dune".
I disagree about under development, it's just development that most people can't understand even on their 5th reading. She gets a boat load of development in the books, and we even see her inner mind's workings a lot. Unless you're talking about in the most recent film, which obviously has her not born yet.
Imagine that your child is born with all the memories of their forebearers. Every plan, scheme, Gom Jabbar et al just present in their little mind from birth. All the memories of all previous Reverend Mothers before. It’s a wonder that Alia is coherent at all
Alia and her predicament, makes me consider myself in a new light, what if somewhere in the future one of my descendants developed the ability to connect with their ancestors, including me? I fear the idea that I could be plague upon those I love who are not yet born, with all of my own insecurities, ambitions and old hates. The mere possibility makes me want to be a better person inside, not just what I present to the world, that perhaps finding balance in myself affects more than just me. It puts a new spin on your legacy.
What was done to Alia puts Jessica on the Big Botch list. If Abomination is such a bad thing no doubt Jessica having been educated by the BG should have already known what could happen to her and her child before she took the water of life. She was willing to sacrifice Alia to assure Paul and her own place among the Fremen. Alia was more likely to die than survive as abomination. Remember, Alia was the pregnancy ordered by the BG rather than Paul.
Per the books, Jessica had not been taught what would happen to her fetus until it was too late. She had not progressed that far in her training by the Bene Gesserit. Even the Fremen Reverend Mother only stated that it would have killed a male fetus outright. While Jessica can be rightly blamed for abandoning Alia after the events of Dune Messiah, she was ignorant of the results of the Water of Life on her daughter. Guilty of making a poor choice when presented with limited options. At the least she should have made the Fremen aware that she was pregnant so thus could be advised of the likely result.
She was a victim. The whole reason the Bene Gesserit hated abominations is because of what happened to her. Jessica was cruel for what she did and I've never really seen a satisfactory answer for it.
Also, one of the reasons that they say she took the water was because the Fremen were all "Ramallo won't make the journey home so take her memories before we lose them all when she dies on the way." which a lot of people don't seem to remember.
Jessica was really to blame here. She should have never left Alia on Arrakis with Paul. Instead, she should have taken her to Caladan and helped her to control her Other Memory. Paul's imperial court just had too much intrigue and Alia felt too pressured to be able to handle it, especially after Paul walked into the desert. Her heavy use of the Spice to try to attain Kwisatz Haderach level prescience didn't help either. This wouldn't have been a problem if she had been given peace and training.
She should never have taken the water of life while pregnant, she knew the exact consequences of it and yet she chose to sacrifice her own daughter. And i personaly think she was also wrong for chosing to have a son (paul) instead of a girl as she was supposed to. Overall jessica was a selfish person
@@ikram-258 - It parallels the bad decisions that Paul also made. Jessica underwent the Spice Agony to ensure her and Paul's place among the Fremen by becoming their Reverend Mother. Just as Paul would repeat the act in order to become their Mahdi. All of this was to get revenge on the Emperor and the Landsraad. Alia was sacrificed on the altar of politics.
@@ikram-258 Jessica had Paul out of love for Leto (giving him what he desired) not out of selfishness. I think she, too, desired revenge for what happened to the man she loved, though she wouldn't let herself say it out loud. When Paul showed his desire for revenge, Jessica did everything she could to help him attain it, so she could enjoy it vicariously through him, but after taking the Water of Life, both Paul and Jessica were no longer the people they were before.
The twins actually tried to to help her in the end Leto and ghanima both managed to attain control of their other lives in them and when they tried to help her the baron would not allow it it was only after she looked at her mom for help and her mom just being cold did she realize no one could help her even if she wanted to attain control it was to late she was to weak to gain any form of control and is why she threw herself out the window to die by her own hands ,she did not even scream imagine that . Leto looked as his grandmother lady Jessica and even told her “ we told you to take pity on her” as he looked at her with disappointment, lady Jessica just hid her face behind the price faradan in shame
@@rikk319 it's more complicated than that. Jessica also wanted to be the mother of the kwisatz haderach her ego was a part of it as much as her love for leto, not to mention that the duc could have had a son with someone else but yet she wanted to be the one the mother of the kwizat and of leto's son despite the consequences, for me that's selfishness(you are free to think otherwise).
To many evil minds in this series... The emperor, the bene gesserit, the harkonnen and sadly... too many victims.... the difference is that Alia never really had a choice. She was doomed since her mother took that water of life. Abandoned, feared and resented.
I know Villeneuve's said he doesn't plan to do an adaptation of "Children of Dune" (where Alia's full tragic arc plays out) after he's completed "Dune Messiah", but if he changes his mind, I have NO doubt - based on his filmography - that he could get an Oscar-winning performance out of Anya Taylor-Joy here. There are elements of Alia's "Greek tragedy" arc in his "Incendies", of duelling psyches in "Enemy", of "lost souls" in "Sicario" as well as nuanced, thought-provoking but also gut-wrenching treatments of key characters throughout his films... We'll see after we collectively gauge the reaction to "Messiah"...
Thank you for this. I have read the entire Dune series and could never shake the feeling that a lot of the main characters were tragic ones - a side effect/product of other's machinations. Alia is such a sad story/character as well as Paul (despite him spiraling into full revenge mode), Paul's twin children, Paul's love of his life and so on. I truly do appreciate Herbert's solution to those who would use fate so cruelly - remove fate's power entirely. In that light, Jessica began that possibility - without her disobeying the BG, the BG would have possibly continued on with their bonker plans. It is just truly unfortunate that Jessica abandoned the daughter she basically abused and sentenced to death (as soon as she drank the water of life). But, can you imagine a world like that - one where the power of "fate" is kicked to the curb? "Fate" can represent any thing that is used to coerce, manipulate and control others with. I suppose we, as the regular folks on this planet, need to find this within ourselves.
Another great video. Alia story is tragic partly because it’s preventable! She is literally left alone at the helm of one of the greatest empires in history, while she’s sick with a disease (abomination), and expected to be a mother to two children who are also sick. It’s insane pressure she’s under and it’s sad because this is often a reality for real women. Forced to grow up way to soon and crumbling under the pressure. When she takes the spice she doesn’t do it for enjoyment, she does it so she can access prescience. She wants to properly lead the empire and protect her family from very real enemies but without Pauls power she doesn’t know how to lead. This leads to her effectively poisoning herself to death in a slow horrible way that again mirrors real life drug addiction and psychosis.
Alia was both victim and villian. Poor girl. It was nothing that she wanted but she couldn't escape. She, her mother the Lady Jessica, Chani and Ghanima were all victims of other people's greed. They were so strong and intelligent, but Frank Herbert doesn't fully develop them. They were all pivotal to Maud Dib's becoming the emperor.
Yo también la amo, como soy capaz de amar a mujeres de la historia enfermas de soledad y abandonadas a sus propios demonios: La condesa húngara Erzsebet Bathory o la Sultana Regente Otomana Kosem.
This was a fascinating character study, well done. I’d totally forgotten how creepy Alia was in the 80s version, and how tragic she was in the miniseries
I’m gonna say it. Jessica was the real villain in Dune. If she had JUST had the daughter she was supposed to have, all the stuff in the Dune series would have been avoided. Even in the new movies, she is a manipulative narcissist.
She's a definite villain, but not a narcissist. She didn't start as a villain, and her journey into villainy is interesting. She loved Leto, and a narcissist can't truly love someone more than themselves. She was a lot more timid before the Atreides were wiped out, and I think she was driven by revenge just as much as Paul, and after drinking the Water of Life she knew how to gain revenge--raise Paul up to Emperor. Everyone else suffered for it, including Paul and Alia.
@@rikk319 Also, one of the reasons that they say she took the water was because the Fremen were all "Ramallo won't make the journey home so take her memories before we lose them all when she dies on the way." which a lot of people don't seem to remember.
What I don't get is Alia's exclusion in the films. I mean, she's a HUGE part of the first book! Starting from Part Two of Dune she's alive (4 years old, if I'm not mistaken, given that she's sixteen in Messiah).
I thought only a male has access to the memories of every ancestor (quizats haderach). And females only the female acenstors. Technically Alia should not be having the memories of Baron Harkonnen, no?
@@haihuynh8772 hmm, not so sure. I understand, that she had endured difficult circumstances at birth and before birth, but if that would have been explicitly mentioned in the book, it would have been convincing :)
I honestly would say victim over villian, in the case of Alia. She didn't ask for the hand she got dealt in life. She didnt ask to become fully aware before even being born. I think Jessica made some major mistakes. Honestly, though, i think the shit started hitting the fan and began spiraling out of control when Paul and Alia's father Leto Atrades was killed. Something inside Paul snapped and he wasnt the same after that. Leto was the better influence for Paul than Jessica was, not that Jessica didn't love Paul, but her bene jeserit roots ran too deep. In Jessica's case, Leto's death messed her up to, so she, like Paul, was bent on revenge, and it never stopped. Between Paul's and Jessica's vengeful desires, i think Alia was always something of an afterthought to them both, and Jessica wasn't the mother she should have been. Then, to have the responsibility thrust on her at such a young age to rule as regent until her nephew and niece came of age and Leto II could take his place as emperor. She botched things, because Jessica, and Paul too, were playing power games and Alia was too young to really get it at first, and actually believed it when she was older. She got her head really messed with, and it is so sad.
Please, could you do a resume about Lady Jessica next? I always tried to understand her. Never read the books, and in the movies she has a big role, but I always felt that they don't really convey her motifs or thoughts.
I'm new to the book and just recently finished the first 3 of the whole series. My biggest question to Alia's demise was: why the hell she went mad all of a sudden in book 3? I saw no sign of her losing control to her inner selves or going insane in the first 2 books at all. I didn't even understand why Benes call her an abomination and fear it so much, at least I didn't see a clear and strong reason in the first 2 books.
Because she has lost hope that her family would be there for her and was willingly surrendering to the voices as they were the only source of comfort possible
Idk how Lady Jessica can live with herself after all she's done. I guess she was another poor soul that needed to be sacrificed to achieve The Golden Path, but goddayum man lol. Imagine seeing your son turn from Paul into whatever the hell he was at the end, depressed as f***. Then everything that happened to Alia and Jessica watching her final moments - which I can only imagine being one of the most disturbing things someone can see - and then jumping out. Sheesh.
She's such a tragic character. People only remember her up until and during her possession, but Alia was fiercely loyal to her family, she loved Paul and Jessica. Other than Leto II and Duncan, she is the most tragic character in Dune.
Everything frank herbert does in his books has many layers of meaning, alia I think is supposed to represent generations doomed by the actions of those who came before them. being preborn she never truly had a thought that belonged only to her but inherited a cause that was lost before it ever began. There is a recurring motif throughout the dune books of people thinking they know best and not realizing what they are asking for until its too late.
I honestly honestly don't understand why Jessica just couldn't have waited a couple of months to undercover transformation so she didn't screw up her kid
Looking forward to learning why Jessica took Water of Life when she knew she was pregnant. Was there no possibility of waiting until Alia was born? I am aware of the general outlines of the plot but haven't read the books yet. They are on the list, though! Also I happen to rather like Daniela Amavia's performance in the miniseries.
I wonder if Jessica could have said something. In the books, there isn't much time for Jessica to get her sea legs before she is forced into becoming a Reverand Mother.
@@angellover02171 It doesn't really matter what Jessica wanted, as she is just a written character. What matters is Frank Herbert chose her character do take those actions in furtherance of his novel's plot. She couldn't act any other way than how he wrote her. Lots of people in the novels are forced into action by other events; it's kind of what drives plots in good books.
Honestly I think you're more sympathetic to her than the author, and he framed it more as just a natural and inevitable end in a way that just didn't ring true to me at all. One of my biggest problems with the book tbh, which I think is the worst written of the first four that I've read. Maybe Herbert just has problems not overly focalising the narrative and judgments that derive from it on one or two characters though.
Alia's story broke my heart when I read the books and after seeing Part 2.. it made me hate Jessica twice as much! Also, Denis *BETTER* put Alia's legacy in the spotlight because he butchered it in Part 2!
She WAS a victim. Now that her entire personality has ben overwritten by centuries of memories from Reverend Mothers she is a villian.She perpetrated the holy war just as much as her mother did in this movie.
Reading it (or listening to the audiobook) might be better, though the TV miniseries by that name from about 20 years ago is a pretty faithful adaptation of both "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune" (albeit with inevitably much lower production values than Villeneuve's two films, thus far...)
Not knowing who she is IS who she is. Did she commit suicide, or did she kill the ancestor who was taking her over? THAT is NOT suicide. None of us know who we are truly, but we can always know who we are not.
All villains are victims anyway. There's no such thing as evil. The causes of evil are the same as your car dying on the road. It's always because individuals are damaged, or innately defective...or both. Evil is absolutely always the result of systems having failed for some reason, or having developed incorrectly. And emotion is always one of those flaws. More importantly, all the depictions of "cold logic" in all media are always anything BUT logical in any way. "Cold-blooded" doesn't even mean "unemotional" to begin with. Everything everyone believes is completely wrong.
Victim. She was just born due to the Bene Gesserit. Even Paul was just going through the motions. You can see the mother reverent knew exactly how the chess pieces go regardless who takes the throne. This is a bit like the us presidency but many are blinded and thinking they have a choice. I laugh as it reflects this movie so much.
Yes but in my opinion the author doesnt do a great job portraying hin the way he intended to be . Maybe its because of the german translation i read idk.
this is no longer her fate in the movies as timeline has changed. the fat harkonen guy is dead and the emperor is no longer the emperor so by the time alia is born in the movies, paul will be the emperor. duncan is dead before she is born so she cannot marry him.
Reverend Mother Mohiam called him that in the movie, but in the book it was Alia who was called that, as a child changed by the Water of Life in utero. In the movie she called Paul that out of spite because he was the Kwisatz Haderach but she couldn't control him.
![Asterix & Obelix: Slap Them All! - Mission 2-5 3-1 (PC) [4K60FPS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CzD4ckQaw0g/mqdefault.jpg)
jessica was NOT a good mom to neither paul nor alia. she set both of her kids up for a doomed destiny and set them both on a path that took away almost all their own personhood and personal choice. both were thrust into a position they were not meant to be in by her choice, paul being born when he wasn’t supposed to, he was supposed to be a daughter yet she basically created him as her own project and then alia wasn’t meant to be pre born but for her plans so put her child at risk. lady jessica, they could never make me like you!!!!🧌🍅
jessica has no choice even from the very beginning, she was raised bene gesserit from a very young age, brain washed. The best she could do is to prepare Paul and trained him to be strong. Alia's circumstance is not even her fault, she was forced the voice was used on her to drink the worm liquid in which she is hesitant to even drink.
I hate Jessica for what she'd done to Alia. Afterwards, she didn't even care for her.
The Bene Gesserit conditioning was too strong, she partially overcame it for Leto and Paul, whit Leto dead and Paul Emperor she returned to the sisterhood, no much of a mother then.
Didn't she admit she feared her and that's why she ran. Because she knew what she'd done to her and couldn't face it.
I dislike Jessicas character completely
I just hate Jessica in general
Why not?
I feel the exact same way, she doesn't get a lot of love. I wish she could live and get the love she deserved. Leto and Ghanima are also preborns but they had each other so they didnt fall into abomination but Alia had no one.
Worse, leto and ghanima could have called their mom for help much earlier, but they chose to let alia fall further under the baron's influence (only other way out of that loneliness), probably to justify seizing the throne from her.
The movie version however, comes off as a much darker person to start with
Her mother deserts her.
@@TheMarkmcrLeto and Ghanima could have called their mom for help sooner?
Are you talking about Chani? Who dead and at one point tried to possess Ghanima? Or are you talking about Lady Jessica? Who only came to Arrakis to spy on Leto II and Ghanima for the Bene Gesserit? Leto II and Ghanima knew of Alia spice addiction. Her constantly going through the spice agony or spice trance. Leto II and Ghanima knew there was nothing they could do to stop it. Ghanima tells The Lady Jessica when they are speaking alone. That Leto II has not become the abomination yet. That she did worry about her brother and crossing over the line.
There was no Alia. She was born with all her anscestors memories before having any of her own. She was an empty shell for a dominant personality to take.
If her own sense of self didn't exist, she'd logically still be alive. I personally believe it's more that she was intentionally letting the baron take control as a substitute for jessica's abandonment of her.
7:24 "They revered her, feared her even prayed to her, but no one really knew her... " I really love this. Good piece of writing!
Alia was done so dirty. She needed love and support, and she had none.
Jessica felt bad at the end of the book because she realized after seeing Leto II and Ghanima who also were abominations were able to overcome them. She felt she could have saved Alia if she didn’t isolate her.
I think Alia is one of the under appreciated and under developed characters in Dune.
There is a MAX series in the cards this fall, but it's a prequel inspired by something written by the son of Frank Herbert, rather than by "Children of Dune".
I disagree about under development, it's just development that most people can't understand even on their 5th reading. She gets a boat load of development in the books, and we even see her inner mind's workings a lot. Unless you're talking about in the most recent film, which obviously has her not born yet.
I think this is kinda the point- she doesn’t have a personality. She is a through-point
Totally agree 😢she is so tragic
Don’t talk rubbish! That’s like saying that Shakespeare didn’t develop Falstaff’s character further! Shut up!
Imagine that your child is born with all the memories of their forebearers. Every plan, scheme, Gom Jabbar et al just present in their little mind from birth. All the memories of all previous Reverend Mothers before. It’s a wonder that Alia is coherent at all
It was burdensome even for an adult mind. A child's mind was more delicate and susceptible to bad things
Alia and her predicament, makes me consider myself in a new light, what if somewhere in the future one of my descendants developed the ability to connect with their ancestors, including me? I fear the idea that I could be plague upon those I love who are not yet born, with all of my own insecurities, ambitions and old hates. The mere possibility makes me want to be a better person inside, not just what I present to the world, that perhaps finding balance in myself affects more than just me. It puts a new spin on your legacy.
what a beautiful thought
@@nadanah183 Thanks, always cool to hear from a kindred thinker. Beauty makes thoughts worthwhile I think.
This is so introspective, I'm deeply amazed that you could come to that conclusion after this video. Makes me look at myself differently even.
What was done to Alia puts Jessica on the Big Botch list.
If Abomination is such a bad thing no doubt Jessica having been educated by the BG should have already known what could happen to her and her child before she took the water of life.
She was willing to sacrifice Alia to assure Paul and her own place among the Fremen. Alia was more likely to die than survive as abomination. Remember, Alia was the pregnancy ordered by the BG rather than Paul.
Per the books, Jessica had not been taught what would happen to her fetus until it was too late. She had not progressed that far in her training by the Bene Gesserit. Even the Fremen Reverend Mother only stated that it would have killed a male fetus outright. While Jessica can be rightly blamed for abandoning Alia after the events of Dune Messiah, she was ignorant of the results of the Water of Life on her daughter. Guilty of making a poor choice when presented with limited options. At the least she should have made the Fremen aware that she was pregnant so thus could be advised of the likely result.
@@Angel9932 It was poison, so drinking it while pregnant was a big risk
Wow I’ve never heard her told with so much empathy and thought. She truly is a tragic character.
She was a victim. The whole reason the Bene Gesserit hated abominations is because of what happened to her. Jessica was cruel for what she did and I've never really seen a satisfactory answer for it.
Also, one of the reasons that they say she took the water was because the Fremen were all "Ramallo won't make the journey home so take her memories before we lose them all when she dies on the way." which a lot of people don't seem to remember.
Jessica was really to blame here. She should have never left Alia on Arrakis with Paul. Instead, she should have taken her to Caladan and helped her to control her Other Memory. Paul's imperial court just had too much intrigue and Alia felt too pressured to be able to handle it, especially after Paul walked into the desert. Her heavy use of the Spice to try to attain Kwisatz Haderach level prescience didn't help either. This wouldn't have been a problem if she had been given peace and training.
She should never have taken the water of life while pregnant, she knew the exact consequences of it and yet she chose to sacrifice her own daughter. And i personaly think she was also wrong for chosing to have a son (paul) instead of a girl as she was supposed to. Overall jessica was a selfish person
@@ikram-258 - It parallels the bad decisions that Paul also made. Jessica underwent the Spice Agony to ensure her and Paul's place among the Fremen by becoming their Reverend Mother. Just as Paul would repeat the act in order to become their Mahdi. All of this was to get revenge on the Emperor and the Landsraad. Alia was sacrificed on the altar of politics.
@@ikram-258 Jessica had Paul out of love for Leto (giving him what he desired) not out of selfishness. I think she, too, desired revenge for what happened to the man she loved, though she wouldn't let herself say it out loud. When Paul showed his desire for revenge, Jessica did everything she could to help him attain it, so she could enjoy it vicariously through him, but after taking the Water of Life, both Paul and Jessica were no longer the people they were before.
The twins actually tried to to help her in the end Leto and ghanima both managed to attain control of their other lives in them and when they tried to help her the baron would not allow it it was only after she looked at her mom for help and her mom just being cold did she realize no one could help her even if she wanted to attain control it was to late she was to weak to gain any form of control and is why she threw herself out the window to die by her own hands ,she did not even scream imagine that . Leto looked as his grandmother lady Jessica and even told her “ we told you to take pity on her” as he looked at her with disappointment, lady Jessica just hid her face behind the price faradan in shame
@@rikk319 it's more complicated than that. Jessica also wanted to be the mother of the kwisatz haderach her ego was a part of it as much as her love for leto, not to mention that the duc could have had a son with someone else but yet she wanted to be the one the mother of the kwizat and of leto's son despite the consequences, for me that's selfishness(you are free to think otherwise).
To many evil minds in this series... The emperor, the bene gesserit, the harkonnen and sadly... too many victims.... the difference is that Alia never really had a choice. She was doomed since her mother took that water of life. Abandoned, feared and resented.
I’m hoping that Villeneuve can incorporate a lot of this in his Dune Part 3, even though most of this happens in Children and not in Messiah.
I really don't know how he will manage to adapt those books...
I know Villeneuve's said he doesn't plan to do an adaptation of "Children of Dune" (where Alia's full tragic arc plays out) after he's completed "Dune Messiah", but if he changes his mind, I have NO doubt - based on his filmography - that he could get an Oscar-winning performance out of Anya Taylor-Joy here.
There are elements of Alia's "Greek tragedy" arc in his "Incendies", of duelling psyches in "Enemy", of "lost souls" in "Sicario" as well as nuanced, thought-provoking but also gut-wrenching treatments of key characters throughout his films...
We'll see after we collectively gauge the reaction to "Messiah"...
@@PeloquinDavid I think Children of Dune gonna be TV series or smthing.
@@PeloquinDavid Tbh I don't see how he could adapt Leto II arc for a mainstream audience.
@@CarlosGarcia-ze1mkdefinitely not God Emperor of Dune.
She's obviously both, that's literally how she was written on purpose. Leto II as well. Arguably Paul also, and many others in the stories.
Thank you for this. I have read the entire Dune series and could never shake the feeling that a lot of the main characters were tragic ones - a side effect/product of other's machinations. Alia is such a sad story/character as well as Paul (despite him spiraling into full revenge mode), Paul's twin children, Paul's love of his life and so on. I truly do appreciate Herbert's solution to those who would use fate so cruelly - remove fate's power entirely. In that light, Jessica began that possibility - without her disobeying the BG, the BG would have possibly continued on with their bonker plans. It is just truly unfortunate that Jessica abandoned the daughter she basically abused and sentenced to death (as soon as she drank the water of life). But, can you imagine a world like that - one where the power of "fate" is kicked to the curb? "Fate" can represent any thing that is used to coerce, manipulate and control others with. I suppose we, as the regular folks on this planet, need to find this within ourselves.
ALL of the characters are tragic.
Another great video. Alia story is tragic partly because it’s preventable! She is literally left alone at the helm of one of the greatest empires in history, while she’s sick with a disease (abomination), and expected to be a mother to two children who are also sick.
It’s insane pressure she’s under and it’s sad because this is often a reality for real women. Forced to grow up way to soon and crumbling under the pressure.
When she takes the spice she doesn’t do it for enjoyment, she does it so she can access prescience. She wants to properly lead the empire and protect her family from very real enemies but without Pauls power she doesn’t know how to lead.
This leads to her effectively poisoning herself to death in a slow horrible way that again mirrors real life drug addiction and psychosis.
Not to mention, she was only fifteen when Paul walked into the desert and she had to take over the empire.
Hi, please credit the 'St. Alia of the Knife' painting @ 2:10 to Devon Cady-Lee/Gorrem. Thank you! Nice vid
You make me sad as if she was a real person. That was an amazing, poignant video. Well done.
Glad you enjoyed it
Please don't give your fetus mind-bending substances
I felt the sadness throughout her journey while reading. Thank you for explaining it beautifully.
best Alia video on youtube! Thank you for making this. (I never find such a video about Alia on YT)
Alia was both victim and villian. Poor girl. It was nothing that she wanted but she couldn't escape. She, her mother the Lady Jessica, Chani and Ghanima were all victims of other people's greed. They were so strong and intelligent, but Frank Herbert doesn't fully develop them. They were all pivotal to Maud Dib's becoming the emperor.
Alia is my favourite character from the Dune series; such a tragic character arc, can't help but love her even if she is twisted.
Yo también la amo, como soy capaz de amar a mujeres de la historia enfermas de soledad y abandonadas a sus propios demonios: La condesa húngara Erzsebet Bathory o la Sultana Regente Otomana Kosem.
Damn good Dune video. I'm a bit of an amateur scholar of Dune (and other books) myself and I really liked how you put her together.
Your voice is amazing. Excellent work.
She’s a million percent a victim from birth she was dealt a bad hand
This was a fascinating character study, well done. I’d totally forgotten how creepy Alia was in the 80s version, and how tragic she was in the miniseries
Alia is a victim. She loves her family but she is haunted by the legacy of the Benne Gesserit and the spirit of Vladimir Harkonnen
The background song in your videos is tickling the edge of my memory...a haunting tune, but I can't place what game or soundtrack I remember it from.
wake up babe mr valaritas dropped another bangerrrr!!
I’m gonna say it. Jessica was the real villain in Dune. If she had JUST had the daughter she was supposed to have, all the stuff in the Dune series would have been avoided.
Even in the new movies, she is a manipulative narcissist.
She's a definite villain, but not a narcissist. She didn't start as a villain, and her journey into villainy is interesting. She loved Leto, and a narcissist can't truly love someone more than themselves. She was a lot more timid before the Atreides were wiped out, and I think she was driven by revenge just as much as Paul, and after drinking the Water of Life she knew how to gain revenge--raise Paul up to Emperor. Everyone else suffered for it, including Paul and Alia.
@@rikk319 Also, one of the reasons that they say she took the water was because the Fremen were all "Ramallo won't make the journey home so take her memories before we lose them all when she dies on the way." which a lot of people don't seem to remember.
Really enjoying your videos. Thx ❤🎉
Honestly this is a pretty damn good video. Well done!
What I don't get is Alia's exclusion in the films. I mean, she's a HUGE part of the first book! Starting from Part Two of Dune she's alive (4 years old, if I'm not mistaken, given that she's sixteen in Messiah).
Your videos a really well done and the narration is superb. ❤
Hey, thanks a lot!
I thought only a male has access to the memories of every ancestor (quizats haderach). And females only the female acenstors. Technically Alia should not be having the memories of Baron Harkonnen, no?
I also wonder this
Yeah I think this is because she is an abomination
Alia was preborn, and probably has similar genetics to that of Paul, which should give her powers of a Kwisatz Haderach.
@@haihuynh8772 hmm, not so sure. I understand, that she had endured difficult circumstances at birth and before birth, but if that would have been explicitly mentioned in the book, it would have been convincing :)
She is a preborn which is diffrent from your regular bene gesserit
I love your commentary! The way you commentate is so engaging!
The changes in the new Dune movie(s) I feel give more agency to Chani and Irulan I look forward to part 3
She's one of my favorite characters
I honestly would say victim over villian, in the case of Alia. She didn't ask for the hand she got dealt in life. She didnt ask to become fully aware before even being born. I think Jessica made some major mistakes. Honestly, though, i think the shit started hitting the fan and began spiraling out of control when Paul and Alia's father Leto Atrades was killed. Something inside Paul snapped and he wasnt the same after that. Leto was the better influence for Paul than Jessica was, not that Jessica didn't love Paul, but her bene jeserit roots ran too deep. In Jessica's case, Leto's death messed her up to, so she, like Paul, was bent on revenge, and it never stopped. Between Paul's and Jessica's vengeful desires, i think Alia was always something of an afterthought to them both, and Jessica wasn't the mother she should have been. Then, to have the responsibility thrust on her at such a young age to rule as regent until her nephew and niece came of age and Leto II could take his place as emperor. She botched things, because Jessica, and Paul too, were playing power games and Alia was too young to really get it at first, and actually believed it when she was older. She got her head really messed with, and it is so sad.
Great job I was really disappointed Alia was missing from the films.
A sad tragedy poor Alia she just wanted love before she lost her mind and control.
Please, could you do a resume about Lady Jessica next? I always tried to understand her. Never read the books, and in the movies she has a big role, but I always felt that they don't really convey her motifs or thoughts.
I'm new to the book and just recently finished the first 3 of the whole series. My biggest question to Alia's demise was: why the hell she went mad all of a sudden in book 3? I saw no sign of her losing control to her inner selves or going insane in the first 2 books at all. I didn't even understand why Benes call her an abomination and fear it so much, at least I didn't see a clear and strong reason in the first 2 books.
Because she has lost hope that her family would be there for her and was willingly surrendering to the voices as they were the only source of comfort possible
Idk how Lady Jessica can live with herself after all she's done. I guess she was another poor soul that needed to be sacrificed to achieve The Golden Path, but goddayum man lol. Imagine seeing your son turn from Paul into whatever the hell he was at the end, depressed as f***. Then everything that happened to Alia and Jessica watching her final moments - which I can only imagine being one of the most disturbing things someone can see - and then jumping out. Sheesh.
She's such a tragic character. People only remember her up until and during her possession, but Alia was fiercely loyal to her family, she loved Paul and Jessica. Other than Leto II and Duncan, she is the most tragic character in Dune.
Everything frank herbert does in his books has many layers of meaning, alia I think is supposed to represent generations doomed by the actions of those who came before them. being preborn she never truly had a thought that belonged only to her but inherited a cause that was lost before it ever began. There is a recurring motif throughout the dune books of people thinking they know best and not realizing what they are asking for until its too late.
I honestly honestly don't understand why Jessica just couldn't have waited a couple of months to undercover transformation so she didn't screw up her kid
She is my favorite character
i love your videos about DUNE.
Looking forward to learning why Jessica took Water of Life when she knew she was pregnant. Was there no possibility of waiting until Alia was born? I am aware of the general outlines of the plot but haven't read the books yet. They are on the list, though!
Also I happen to rather like Daniela Amavia's performance in the miniseries.
I wonder if Jessica could have said something. In the books, there isn't much time for Jessica to get her sea legs before she is forced into becoming a Reverand Mother.
@@angellover02171 It doesn't really matter what Jessica wanted, as she is just a written character. What matters is Frank Herbert chose her character do take those actions in furtherance of his novel's plot. She couldn't act any other way than how he wrote her. Lots of people in the novels are forced into action by other events; it's kind of what drives plots in good books.
great work!!!!
What was strange,how she was able to talk to her mother in the womb. She was doom to have the Baron ruin her.
Honestly I think you're more sympathetic to her than the author, and he framed it more as just a natural and inevitable end in a way that just didn't ring true to me at all. One of my biggest problems with the book tbh, which I think is the worst written of the first four that I've read. Maybe Herbert just has problems not overly focalising the narrative and judgments that derive from it on one or two characters though.
I'm really liking your videos
Alia's story broke my heart when I read the books and after seeing Part 2.. it made me hate Jessica twice as much! Also, Denis *BETTER* put Alia's legacy in the spotlight because he butchered it in Part 2!
She WAS a victim. Now that her entire personality has ben overwritten by centuries of memories from Reverend Mothers she is a villian.She perpetrated the holy war just as much as her mother did in this movie.
Tragic character. Used by others, including her own family. She didn't ask for or deserve what happened to her.
wow, I definitely should watch Children of Dune...
Reading it (or listening to the audiobook) might be better, though the TV miniseries by that name from about 20 years ago is a pretty faithful adaptation of both "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune" (albeit with inevitably much lower production values than Villeneuve's two films, thus far...)
Awesome vidéos.
And why is your pseudonym Valaritas, like the word written on the door in Kingkiller ?!? :o
huge fan of Kingkiller ;)
@@ValaritasYT it's my favorite series :D
Exquisite video!
Great video!
Dam, Alia Atriedes, sounds like a real Greek tragedy.
Anya's a goddess no matter what role she's in. Alia's a great character too.
Not knowing who she is IS who she is. Did she commit suicide, or did she kill the ancestor who was taking her over? THAT is NOT suicide. None of us know who we are truly, but we can always know who we are not.
Mr Valaritas, you will be huge one day!
All villains are victims anyway. There's no such thing as evil. The causes of evil are the same as your car dying on the road. It's always because individuals are damaged, or innately defective...or both.
Evil is absolutely always the result of systems having failed for some reason, or having developed incorrectly.
And emotion is always one of those flaws. More importantly, all the depictions of "cold logic" in all media are always anything BUT logical in any way. "Cold-blooded" doesn't even mean "unemotional" to begin with. Everything everyone believes is completely wrong.
Victim. She was just born due to the Bene Gesserit. Even Paul was just going through the motions. You can see the mother reverent knew exactly how the chess pieces go regardless who takes the throne.
This is a bit like the us presidency but many are blinded and thinking they have a choice. I laugh as it reflects this movie so much.
Glad we can all agree that those who are most vulnerable, are those in their own mother’s womb.
What a video🎉🎉
Come on
She lost control and dear great granddaddy took over , more or less
Wow, nice one bro.
The real villain's name is Paul.
Yes but in my opinion the author doesnt do a great job portraying hin the way he intended to be . Maybe its because of the german translation i read idk.
Any credits for the Artists you used? I'd like to check out their stuff.
As every photo is rolled out the credit is at the bottom and then it fades
thank you! very cool
Nice video !
Pick pretty much any celebrity that committed suicide and their story will be pretty much the same as Alia's.
this is no longer her fate in the movies as timeline has changed. the fat harkonen guy is dead and the emperor is no longer the emperor so by the time alia is born in the movies, paul will be the emperor. duncan is dead before she is born so she cannot marry him.
I believe the duncan she married was a clone
@@TheMarkmcr ah! OK now that makes sense. Thanks.
Lore of Alia Atreides: Understanding An Abomination | Dune Explained momentum 100
Was it too late for Alia to try the hypno-trance that protected Ghanima from the horde? Perhaps she was too old by then.
Why didn’t her mother tell the old witches no I can’t drink the water of life, I’m pregnant
Than Jessica and Paul would be trown to the dessert without any help from freeman, to die.
If you have read the books….she is both.
In part 2 why she's still in the womb tho?
Not a bad choice I guess...
Cowardice
DV chose to skip the 2-4 years between her birth and the final events on Arakis.
Dennis’s adaptation could set things differently so it is questionable whether She shall fall the same fate as in the books.
Most probably to spare us from a CGI toddler or (technically too old) child actor. It's difficult to do that well. There are a lot of bad examples.
background soundtrack?
Eugenics
What is this music? Thank you!
Jon Sumner - Desert Winds
She got harkonnen curse.
she will be inthe third movie with duncan idaho double
So why did Paul was called abomination if he drank that blue thing as an adult?
Reverend Mother Mohiam called him that in the movie, but in the book it was Alia who was called that, as a child changed by the Water of Life in utero. In the movie she called Paul that out of spite because he was the Kwisatz Haderach but she couldn't control him.
@@rikk319 ohhhhh I see. Thx for the answer!
Alia was a victim
Yes.
💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔💔
I loved her, thought she was a bad ass!
or neither.
She was preborn, not her fault, so victim
Victim
Both