BMW & Toyota's plan to Save Hydrogen Cars and beat EVs in 15 years
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- Опубліковано 7 лис 2024
- BMW & Toyota's plan to Save Hydrogen Cars and beat EVs in 15 years
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#toyota #bmw #hydrogencars #evs #evnews
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I saw an interview with one of the top experts in hydrogen, he had no agenda. But he said it’s a non starter. You just can’t transport and store the stuff at scale.
Correction: It can't be stored for long.
The ideal car of future could be a PHEV with H2 engine....where about 40 miles range come from EV and H2 can fuel longer drives
China will lead the race. Surplus energy from renewables will be used to produce green H2
You can actually absorb it onto disks of a type of metal. Hydrogen stores 5 times as much energy as gasoline which stores several times as much energy as the very best batteries. bottom line, hydrogen cars or any other machines have the capacity to run for 10-20 times the distance of a battery powered car. Once upon a time, nobody thought solar panels had a future. Now they cost hundreds of times less. You are as bad as the people who laughed at electric cars. keep an open mind. Neither BMW or Toyota are run by idiots.
@@lordofsevenrealms - Like the Honda e-FCEV CRV, the problem is hydrogen storage is bulky and takes up significant space in a vehicle as can be seen with the Honda where half the cargo space is taken up by the hydrogen vessel. It's anyones guess how automakers can shrink the combined battery and hydrogen vessel bulk into the smaller cars used in most part of the world.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen
@@hoffinger - Geologic Hydrogen is yet untested, as it's only been assessed at a few locations. There are questions about output quality, fracking requirements and exploration risks such as hydrogen pocket concentration and distribution (will the hydrogen pockets build up in single locations or will they be distributed across a wider area in many pockets requring multiple wells to be drilled). There are also questions how local geology might gum up extraction due to hydrogen being highly reactive with the surrounding minerals, and what additional technology innovations will be required to be implemented to capture non-hydrogen gas releases. For example the powerful greenhouse gas methane is often co-located with hydrogen deposits and the current flare burning method is not a suitable solution as it makes geologic hydrogen a non-green product.
Sam, rooting for you and your family.
Beautiful family. I pray she gets well soon.
God Bless your family!
You're right about these cars. Best wishes to your wife and family.
Hydrogen is a ICE auto boondoggle period. Quality for a price will win every time. You are exactly right Sam Evens.
Until we make cheap and plentiful GREEN HYDROGEN, at scale, why are we even having the conversation!?! The convenience and practicality of hydrogen storage is also far into the future so let's concentrate on the much more developed and reliable EV production and battery technology.
@@markapplejohn4376 Yes. Spot on. Even if it's the best tech, it needs a lot of hard work, money, time and efforts to bring it to the mass in the real world and EVs are simply way ahead in almost all if not all areas including affordability and convenience.
Toyota and BMW have made an unholy alliance with Big Oil Co. in order to resist electrification....
Whatever Toyota is smoking, now BMW is too. It's amazing. Who knew insanity was contagious. Hydrogen is the future!
The whole hydrogen circus is too complex, too expensive, too cumbersome. And batteries just keep getting better. I own an EV and charge at home. I absolutely love never having to drive to a gas station anymore.
BMW does the strategy there doing in Australia they will do extremely well, power and to performance same car are priced the same and in some models the EV version is actually cheaper than the ICE version. This garbage and waste of time with hydrogen bombs will kill the company.
Unless BMW & Toyota can solve the infrastructure problem of not enough refueling stations, hydrogen cars are not going to sell.
The economics just don’t work. California subsidized H2 stations 10-15 years ago and Toyota built Mirai FCEVs which have been a total flop. The h2 is made from reformed methane at refineries and sold at a cost of $36/kg (55-60 miles/kg economy). For $36 USD you can buy 10 gallons (38L) of gasoline/petrol. Shell closed 8 hydrogen stations in California this year, leaving about 45 left.
@@sweejinyap315 Yes. Spot on. Also they need to make sure it must be very affordable for the mass market. As it is currently, it is almost certain that EVs will still win by a very big wide margin.
As EVs are becoming much more cheaper and more affordable with better batteries, etc hydrogen is no more on the cards.
They also have to make it cost competitive with electricity and just as green. Impossible.
@@rogerphelps9939 Yes. Exactly. Wishful thinking that is bound to fail.
It's also the intrinsic cost - in monetary and energy terms. And the difficulties in use (like you have to keep your car outdoors because it needs to vent hydrogen).
Can't believe BMW is going insane too.
Hi I'm in the same position as you re your partner. It's hard on all of you. Be strong for her and the kids.
UK has 14 public hydrogen fuel stations, Germany has 65 stations. California is the only mainland state to have hydrogen stations maybe 50 or so in the US. Shell shut down their stations in California.
There are 16 UK hydrogen fueling stations, but only 7 are open to the public for charging cars the rest are commercial vehicle operations. Shell shut down three of their stations in the UK in 2023 as well.
and the rest of the world has even less hydrogen stations than those countries while EVs are getting better and better and more convenient day by day. EVs will dominate.
@@GruffSillyGoat Won't work. Dead end strategy.
@@JCSY1 ? was responding to a point about public hydrogren access in the UK, indicating there is less than believed.
@@GruffSillyGoat Yes. EVs are still the best alternative and most affordable replacement for ICE cars.
These legacy car makers are wasting precious time promoting a technology that while has potential is way behind the curve of BEV car adoption. This will leave at least a few of them having to either shutter their factories , form partnerships with competitors , or merge with each other to survive the coming carpocalypse. Tic tok , tic tok.
I think the only way hydrogen would be more efficient is if they latch on the production of hydrogen to some other process. Basically said other process uses renewable energy and has hydrogen as a by-product and that would only solve efficiency as far as production goes.
@@nfzeta128 the thing is, the biggest investors of hydrogen technology is china, which would just lead to their most important market be china, which would just lead in the long term to chinese hydrogen cars appear as competitors and just would happen the same as is happening with the EV
@@starman275 Don't think hydrogen will make a comeback in China for vehicles. They do invest more in research in general but I think they're just trying to advance in any and all ways and that hydrogen research will be put to other uses, like flight.
@@nfzeta128 - There are no commercialised renewable processes by which hydrogen is a by-product, rather excessive amount of renewable energy has to be spent in generating green hydrogen. Most identified hydrogen by-product processes are fossil-fuel orientated (coal coke creation or propane processing), so are not green through are seen as alternatives to the methane steam reforming grey hydrogen production stream. There is a consideration that seawater extraction of Lithium may result in hydrogen generation as well but this method is still at the research stage and there are questions over the economics of the process.
@@GruffSillyGoat yea figured that may ne the case. Something as reactive and 'sticky' as hydrogen doesn't seem to be something which easily becomes a byproduct.
Hydrogen is not the answer, too expensive to produce, BEV are the future.
Big factor? You can't make hydrogen at home!
You could using electrolysis but it would be very hard to compress and store the stuff
@@rogerphelps9939 ... and BLOODY dangerous! It is not for nothing that there are very strict safety measures that the chemical industry must take when handling hydrogen!
Some complain of the fire danger of lithium-ion batteries... while advocating hydrogen! They should study the topic a bit deeper before reaching such nonsensical conclusions!
I wish your wife a speedy recovery! Anyhow, the Chinese are developing its hydrogen car technology ahead of the supposed competitors for any event, quietly and without making a big fuss like Toyota.
No they aren't. They realise that the isea is stupid.
BMW and Toyota do not want to manufacture and sell hydrogen cars; they want to sell internal combustion engine cars.
The purpose of the hydrogen car hype is to provide an excuse not to switch to electric cars and to buy more ICE cars instead.
Many are skeptical about electric cars and fear that an electric car might turn out to be a mistake. Therefore, they want to continue with the familiar ICE cars. BMW’s and Toyota’s message is intended for them.
They are deluded.
A hydrogen car is also a weapon. If you rupture it's tank.....
Let's say it would be possible to bring hydrogen infrastructure into affordability as well as the other development problems. The focus seems to be on fuel cell hydrogen cars because they're more efficient than burning hydrogen as fuel in generating power to drive the wheels. The only way to get the hydrogen is to use power to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen or to strip hydrogen from hydrocarbons which would leave carbon that you'd have to pay to safely dispose of. So you take electricity to generate hydrogen which is then used to generate electricity in a car to electrically drive it. In what way isn't it cheaper to just take the original electricity and put it into batteries in the car and drive it directly with that?
No way.
@@rogerphelps9939 Way.
Its now a race between BMW and Toyota to see who will go bankrupt first.
This is the sunk cost fallacy in all its glory.
The next video will be on hydrogen bankruptcy.😂
In a free market economy, people and companies are free to invest in what they want. It is the market, i.e. the tens of millions, hundreds of millions of consumers who decide the winner and loser .
Go ahead, invest all you can. Bet the company. No argument would make a difference. Make a product, see how many people buy it. That is the only thing that matters.
Hope the best for your MRS I wish her well. It's painful and please give her and the kids the best support you can. Viking going through that you're a good man. Can you do a video of BYD entering Pakistan, PakWheels is a good a reliable source.
7:30 hydrogen doesn’t make sense?
How about diesel, gasoline, or LPG? Even less!
Interesting. But even if the hydrogen is actually ‘green’ and made by surplus wind and solar surely the difficulties of transporting and storing such a dangerously explosive gas will be a problem. The other question is ‘what are the actual exhaust emissions because I doubt it is just water’.
Just to add to your point - currently there is no surplus wind or solar; curtailment is often projected as surplus for this purpose but actually the renewable electrical energy is required just at different time to generation. The solution to this is grid batteries not the expensive inefficient generation of hydrogen. Perhaps once the renewable energy generation build-out is complete that further renewables can be deployed focussed to generate hydrogen. Until that time hydrogen generation should focus on industrial processes where the waste heat by-product of hydrogen generation can be utilised to raise the process efficiency.
There will, in the case of those hydrogen cars which burn hydrogen in an ICE, be local toxic emissions in the form of NOx (and possibly nano-particulates).
What a total waste of money. BMW and Toyota would be far better off spending the money on improving and developing their EVs.
And they said Russia was using shovels and toasters to fight....Ukraine is far ahead using Toyotas as bombs!!
LOL, legacy auto is dead man walking.
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all those execs are drinking the red cordial.
BMW will follow Toyota down the gurgler.......total waste of money. The old adage that just because you can doesn't mean you should.
It would be interesting if Asia is dominated by EVs and the West hydrogen cars.
If you raise tarrifs on ev's and subsidize hydrogen enough, consumers will have little choice. Just because you live in Australia does not mean you are isolated from US global imperialist policy. I expect an announcement from the Australian government any day.
FCEVs require a Lithium battery still to function, having integrated the battery electronics and components into their cars there will always be commercial pressures on hydrogen automakers to go further and produce battery EVs, if just to reduce supply chain and production line costs to remain competive with battery EV makers.
I dont really see hydrogen cars in the west, especially consider that china seems to be more ahead in hydrogren technology
@@GruffSillyGoat Legacy Auto has demonstrated their inability / willingness so far to manufacture profitable EVs at scale.. so not sure they could do any better with HFCVs - this is probably why they are pushing for hybrids as the "green" solution to ICE - much easier to build in existing plants, better profit margins and keeps the dealers happy by keeping the dealership model alive and their repair centers profitable.
@@erktrek - In Europe, hybrids already have a sell-by date; in the UK for example sales of new hybrids are banned from 2035. The UK is already seeing the effects of the Petrol/Diesel ban in 2030, with sales of new fossil-fuel vehicles decreasing year on year.
Thanks!
So who is paying the executives to bankrupt their companies?
So will BMW & Toyota be collectorable cars in 25years? (After they folded and got bought out by chinese EV manufacturers)
Sunk cost buyers… $tsla ?
There's one nice thing about hydrogen BMW's, they are showcasing my home town of Antwerp Belgium!
In 15 years time there will be so many people with home chargers and the public networks will be huge with most office/shop car parks having chargers for those who can't charge at home. Why would anyone at that point want to go back to fill stations when electric is available everywhere 🤷♂
Also in the market, volvo, hyundai, ford, susuki, kawasaki and many others... trucks, scooter, train, even cars....
china is already selling hydrogen driven bicycle for 60km range.
it doesnt need charging, just replaceing small bottle of hydrogen (=300watt).
you can buy domestic hydrogen generator(w/ water + electricity)
@@America_bombsTSMC Really? Evidence?
@@rogerphelps9939 google is your friend..... info on H2 electric scooter easy to find
@@rogerphelps9939
you are asking evidence? it is not secret rocket science. you can google"china hydrogen bikes" easily.
@@rogerphelps9939 google chinese hydrogen bike
The key problem with hydrogen-powered cars isn't exactly the cars themselves, but the missing infrastructure to provide fuel to them. How any car company can work that out simply puzzles me.
This has got me thinking but would Hydrogen just be a delaying technique so they can sell more ICE which is more profitable? The more I think about it the more that it make sense
Making fuel cell vehicle is just one thing, developing network station is another. Tesla has done this with their ev and supercharging. Toyota and bmw should build more refuelling station to make it work
Why thuis fixation on Tesla? Here in the UK the Electric Highway was established well before Tesla poked its nose in and Tesla is still nowhwere near dominant with a large number of suppliers. That goes for Europe too. the US is well behind with its outdated NACS anticompetitive tech.
HD DVD vs Blu-ray all over again. One things for sure, ICE vehicles are on borrowed time! Old tech!
The current technology for hydrogen refuelling stations is complex, cumbersome, slow and frankly scary.... It takes about the same time to fill a hydrogen car with fuel as it takes to charge an EV.
What do you think of using hydrogen to make aviation carbon neutral? If that happens wouldn't it be a step in developing a hydrogen infrastructure?
Over the last 12 months the sum total of zero HFC road vehicles was registered in the UK, that's none, not even a bus or a van. And JCB's latest grift? Using taxpayer money developing hydrogen combustion engines, you could not make this **** up.
Their best bet is to work on e-fuels with Porsche. Or give it up
Why? Where do you get the carbon to make e-fuels from? It has to be renewable so you are looking at biomass. Please bear in mind that the energy content of something like corn ethanol is not much more than the energy required to produce it and may actually be less. Also consider tthe fact that burning an e-fuel in an engine is only 25% efficient. Once you have done that perhaps you will undersand that e-fuels are only going to be useful in niche applications.
@@rogerphelps9939 Hi Roger. Don't get me wrong I was just saying between the choice of Hydrogen or e-fuels I'd prefer that. At least with e-fuels all the infrastructure is there. Between BEV and Hydrogen I think BEV is the clear winner and I've got no idea why they are trying to pursue it. From a legacy ICE manufacturer e-Fuels would be better for them as they can continue making cars they way they know how.
I can understand that there are benefits for someone, Toyota-BMW-others, but what benefits does the consumer get from a hydrogen car? Is it lower car acquisition cost? Is it cost/km? Where's the beef?
I suppose it is the chimera of easy refuelling. If a hydrogen vehicle could be refuelled at something like a presentt day pettrol sttation at the same coat as electricity and in a similar time as filling with petrol then there would be a huge marke fro those who cannot charge an EV at home. Unfortunately this is just fantasy and it would be far beter to ensure that everyone has access to conveniently located and reasonably priced charging facilities.
Hydrogen has a future in industrial use and I think Toyota is a great car company but hydrogen for cars seems like bad choice. All things being equal, EVs are less complex, less costly to build, more reliable, safer, and you don't have to deal with transportation costs of hydrogen. The main benefit of hydrogen is far superior Wh/kg but that's only needed for specific use cases like long distance jumbo jets, some types of factories where immense amounts of heat is needed, and other similar high energy use cases.
Hydrogen is clean and should be a good replacement for jet fuel. Which country is going to fund the R&D?
@@cheekeongchan6605 yea that's the problem, when everyone is just so much in it for profit, actual R&D spending is scarce. This is why they took until now to really push hydrogen research, only because BEVs are CURRENTLY threatening profits.
@@cheekeongchan6605Possibly. Another possibility for at least long haul flights and big jumbo jets is jet fuel might not be replaced. This assumes we can lower co2 emissions in other ways enough to mitigate the atmospheric damage by any exceptions.
@@cheekeongchan6605If you can build cheap 500Wh/kg batteries that can charge to 80 percent in 10 minutes, have a range of over 500 miles, can last the lifetime of the car... Toyota will have no choice but to ditch hydrogen for cars. They would be no domand for a hydrogen car or even truck. Even the short haul and private jet industry would see major overhaul.
And if companies like CATL and Samsung are to be believed those sorts of batteries might become a mass produced reality within the next decade.
@@mydogsbutler Yes, you hv a point there. Cars contribute 40% of CO2 and EVs are needed to really bring this percentage down.
Just remember Sam people or company's in this instant are allowed to DREAM, one day they will wake up and I hope for their sake it's not to late
Will FAIL big time. In 15 years time or even much earlier, EVs will already dominate and replace most ICE cars.
Just dumb! Using an inefficient and expensive fuel to power a lackluster EV. Nope. It will never make sense for passenger cars. Maybe it could work for long haul commercial.
Bmw Evs out sell Tesla in europe. Congrats.
Hydrogen: too little, too late.
And you're not going to fill your hydrogen car at home with electricity from your rooftop. Crazy.
I am totally clueless about how Global South governments will be able to subsidize hydrogen stations.
Or even Global North.
So let them build fueling stations like Tesla had to.
It was not just Tesla. Here in the UK and in Europe other networks were up and running well before Tesla arrived. We would carry on very nicely if every Tesla charging station disappeared. Do not give Tesla creditt where none is due.
The giant Toyota get old and the japanese eldely managers, will run the company to be the next Nokia.
Can BMW and Toyota survive 15 years or not is issue to begin with
I didn't get a notification for this video or the following video o I've unsubscribed and re subscribed to see whether that makes a du=ifference.
Feel like a attempt to take a last breath of those Legacy players? All the Hydrogen myths will end once become common the 5 minutes ultra DC fast charging and could go 500 km of range in BEV. RIP ICE & Hydrogen FC.
You need something like 80kwh to get 500km range. That means the charging power must be almost a megawatt. That makes it rather unlikely.
@@rogerphelps9939 Yes thats already exists in with some EVs like Zeekr, GAC & Xpeng etc and that can achieve with a 600 KW charging.
Just wate for the big manufacturers get involved, they have so much experience in mas producing vehicles, Tesla will go bust. That was ten year old news.
he Chinese might do just that. They were nowhere ten years ago but now thet are at the front.
So we can fuel H2 at home can we? lol
I wonder if the fossil-fuel lobby will turn on hydrogen EVs as they have on battery EVs, can imagine similar pot-hole causing claims being extended to FCEV's what with their increased weight and the water exhaust being dumped by the mass of hydrogen vehicles on the road, penetrating and cracking the tarmac in cold weather. Also, will they equivocate claims about so called FCEV air-quality issues as oxygen levels being increased in green generation areas, but decreased along major road arteries where it's consumed by a mass of FCEV vehicles.
Probably not, well as long as fossil-fuel is consumed in the production of hydrogen that is.
the fossil-fuel lobbies would support hydrogen because that would be their new avenue of revenue.
Actually the amount of water released per km would be tiny and would be in the form of vapour, not liquid. That does not detract from the fact that hydrogen cars are stupid.
@@rogerphelps9939 - Water vapour depends upon ambient conditions, most FCEVs to date collect the exhaust water and have a purge button to manually discharge to the road, or when the vehicle control system decides the exhaust container is full. The Mirai releases about 12ml of water per mile, which when considering the case if a high volume of FCEV based traffic passing over a period of time the water dispersion from the vehicles adds up.
In 15 years?? 😂😂
Toyota don’t help themselves by having the most fugly H vehicle designs.
😂😂
Amazing load of BS.
What a lot of BS
try TCM
Their Hydrogen Extraction Infrastructure, Refineries, Factories, Storage, Office Buildings, Fueling stations & Workers homes, all powered by ? 🌞🪁🔋
They use more energy from Solar Wind & the Grid than they can provide from H !!! IRRATIONAL !!! 🤪
I know 2 horrible women who left their husbands of over 15 years because their husbands got Cancer, one was my sister I'm ashamed to say. You're composure & perseverance in the face of such massive emotional challenges demands my deepest admiration. You're not a good bloke, you're the blue print of a Great Man, Son Husband Dad & future Gramps 🍻
P.S. You'd be the perfect motivational speaker for young Aussie boys & Men, to stop this girly man epidemic & show women the importance of finding a traditional husband.