Was Ulysses S. Grant a hero or villain? | Jeremi Suri and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 25 січ 2023
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Jeremi Suri: Civil War...
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Jeremi Suri is a historian at UT Austin.
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Full podcast episode: ua-cam.com/video/GvX-heRWFfA/v-deo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ua-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Jeremi Suri is a historian at UT Austin.
Huh? He’s a hero - how is this a question?
He committed war crimes and allowed his troops to target citizens with theft, rape, and murder.
If you’re unaware of his story and history maybe it is a question
Tell that to the confederacy.
@@jodythomas4324i tried, but I can’t find them anywhere
@@jodythomas4324 The confederates were traitors and Grant treated them with as much respect as his union troops
Not American but always admired Ulysses personality.
One of my favorite Ulysses S Grant story is during his 1st campaign as a commanding officer. Knowing that battle was going to be the next day he didn't sleep and threw up that morning from fear ,as they got closer and closer to the battlefield where the Confederates were suppose to be there was nothing. Scouts told grant that they Confederates completely withdrew from the field.
That's when he wrote in his journal. That my enemy had just as much reason to be afraid as me. But I still showed up. I try to remember this story whenever I feel like giving up or low
Inspiring, thank you
This dude was an awful commander. He’s the guy who had to figure out the hard way that pushing uphill is a bad idea lmfao. The south fought a way better war. They were just ultimately outnumbered by the north.
@@JADiaz10 whatever helps you sleep mate
@@JADiaz10 Two words for you pal. Battle Born
@@JADiaz10 ok keyboard warrior
Grant was given a slave by his in-laws. He worked side by side with him on a farm before eventually arranging for the man’s freedom.
Sounds like a confederate to me.
@@chadk2525 he gave that man the farm
Don't forget to mention had Grant chosen to do so, he could have sold that slave for a profit of $1,000 to $1,500 (more than $43,000 in today's dollars). This was at a time (as at most times in his life before the Civil War) when he was completely broke.
So, think about that for a second. You're broke and have a car you need to get to work but, you give it away! I know thats a crude representation but, I use it just to illustrate Grant's character. His core beliefs of empathy and compassion for humans overrode his immediate needs. Not wants of creature comforts but, needs to provide for himself and his family. That is the kind of person who people will follow and the characteristics of a great person.
@@chadk2525 uh no, not even close. This was at a time when Grant was struggling and lost all his money when a “business partner” took off with it. His FIL,
a slave owner, decided to gift him a slave. He ended up working the farm alongside William (the slaves name) and some of his FILs slaves and it was extremely scandalous he did that… even the neighbors went to his FIL with “concerns”. Because at this point Grant is living on his wife’s family’s land and he’s building his own house on a piece of the land.
But he also was getting up before the sun and chopping firewood, loading it up, then walking the 20 miles to St Louis where he’d sell that firewood. An old subordinate of his in the Mexican American War saw him doing this one day and was shocked at his ragged appearance and asked what he was doing. He simply responded “trying to solve the problem of poverty “.
So at this same time he is given a slave. Instead of selling him for $1000+, he instead simply granted him his freedom. Someone said it’d be like “giving up a car” which isn’t true. It was more like giving away a house you own outright. The average income was $18 a month so it was 5 years of wages he could have gotten. Especially since he really could have used the money.
He also started the Justice Department to crush the KKK, granted blacks citizenship and the right to vote, appointed the first Native American to a cabinet position, created Yellowstone National Park, and so much more.
@@marquisdelafayette1929 I believe it was Teddy that created the national park system
Notice how the general who saved the Union is dismissed by right-wingers, but the general who fought for the Confederacy is glorified.
Grant is underrated as a president, he really did the best he could in a shitty situation
He was actually pretty bad because he wasn’t that smart of a guy. Kind of like Trump, he just wasn’t sophisticated enough to have an actual grasp of what’s goin on.
@@JADiaz10 This absurd comment illustrates that you lack the ability to grasp what is going on.
@@JADiaz10 Trump only led the most economically successful and peaceful period in American history. You seem to have spelled Biden or Bush wrong.
@@scottythetrex5197 dude I’ve had multiple US history teachers explain the same. He wasn’t that bright of a guy. The south fought a way better war because they had Lee and the north had Grant. The only reason why they lost is because the north out populated the south (thank God.) he was the type to figure out the hard way that pushing up hill is a bad idea lmfao. He got so many of his guys killed because of stupid flanks.
@@JADiaz10 Lol. Well, he's considered a military genius by instructors at West Point, some maybe you're teachers need some education too. Neither Grant nor Trump were/are stupid. You want stupid? Joe Biden. That's stupid.
He's off on Grant's drinking habits, propaganda from the bitterness of the Southern States who tried to glorify Robert E Lee. His drinking phase was only during his time in California when he was away from his wife for prolonged periods of time. During the Civil War, he wasn't a drinker but picked up another habit, Cigars, which lead to him having mouth cancer which took his life. His military aid probably also exaggerated Grant's aid as well evidenced in his journal fearing that he'll pick up the habit again and have his command impaired.
Truth!
You're mostly correct on Grant's drinking and 100% correct on it being propagandized over blown. California was Grant's period where he probably drank more than at another time in his life. But, he drank at most times when lonely and rudderless. Grant's other problem with alcohol was he was a lightweight. 2 drinks and he gone. Gone meaning, he was already feeling what most feel after several drinks and at that point he was off to the races and would get hammered.
That's not to condemn or pass judgement on Grant as, that's exactly the same affect alcohol had on me when I used to drink. I admire Grant and, until recently, think historians have totally maligned and disparaged his reputation. He was truly a great general and a much better president than given credit. Grant's problem was he was a horrible judge of character and too forgiving, or maybe too naive, when choosing and dealing with friends. It was his friends who were the source for all the scandal during his administration not Grant. But, Grant was president and the responsibilities that go that. His loyalty to his friends clouded his judgement and by handling them as their friend instead of their president was his biggest flaw.
You don’t hear enough about the man on the $50.
I am very proud to be named after this man
Grant was an absolute hero…STOP comparing historical figures with today’s history.
The greatest American to ever live second only to Abraham Lincoln.
Lex- read or listen to Grant by Ron Chernow (the audible edition is excellent). Grants story is remarkable and this clip barely scratches the surface. I think his may be the greatest personal odyssey in American history.
Don’t know if Lex will read it, but I will! Thanks:)
Yes having read that book and a few other civil war books a few things Jeremi say here seem to be inaccurate.. I never heard of any claim he was a racist prewar... He was mostly sober during the Civil War... and he didnt "pound" Lee. He tried to overwhelm him with larger numbers but sustained big losses in those battles. i.e. Cold Harbor and the Battle of the Wilderness. He was able to defeat Lee by surrounding his army at Petersburg/Richmond and creating a Siege.
Haven't read Chernow's book, but (ret) General Petraeus is a big Grant fan, and he has a very good discussion with the author on UA-cam about this biography.
Ron Chernow is the best
This entire podcast barely scratches the surface of any topic they touched, which was the failure of Lex. Although I generally enjoy his interview style, he completely screwed this one up
Grant was easily one of the greatest Generals to live. Decades of Southern propaganda has done wonders at destroying his legacy. Thankfully, the truth is starting to spread.
Fact. Strategic genius
Grant; the man who saved the Union. Enough said, though there is much more than that in his life's story.
Man, I saw a clip from this episode earlier and watched like a minute of this one before I decided I have to watch the full episode of this one. Great to get this level of detail about Civil War history.
He was litterally poor and bankrupt but still freed his slave he got by his in laws he could have gotten i think an above year salary that time for the slave but freed him.
The bullshit had to deal with Halleck before and after Ft Donelson and Henry alone say hero in my book. He also kept his fucking calm at Shiloh when all his corps commanders were freaking out and the south were literally celebrating their big W.
Grants the best, History put out a great 3 part series on em couple years ago, Amazing American! "Lick em tomorrow though "
Grant unquestionably saved our country.
Loving these YT clips
From my understanding Grant knew how to get things done but didn't know how to win the hearts and minds as a politician.
Grant was beloved up until his death, just look at Grant's Tomb and the number of people who turned out for his funeral, I think it's still a record. It was the "lost Cause" proponents who slandered him, just like the minstrel shows turned "Uncle Tom" from being the hero of Uncle Tom's Cabin" into a pathetic joke.
One of best field commanders and horsemen in the field during the civil war. Had an eye for Military proficiency but not always honesty. He could be considered naive but no less admirable in my eyes.
He was actually a terrible leader. He’s the guy who had to figure out the hard way that pushing uphill is a bad idea. He got so many of his soldiers killed for terrible flanks.
@JADiaz He also had some of the best manuvers of the war especially at Vicksburg. He gets a lot of flack for his overland campaign but a lot of bad decisions are on his subordinates as well esp the Battle of the Crater. He did what no other union commander did in the Potomac. He kept going til he made Lee quit.
@ambrosebrown It turned out the way it turned out because of a thousand different factors - equipment,supply,and population played primary roles in the outcome (as they always do).
Many good men were killed on both sides - a loss greater,and with longer lasting effects,than
most think.
For me,a long time history buff,one of the greatest tragedies of that conflict
is the fact that the brilliance of Robert E. Lee as a battlefield commander,his integrity as a man,the courage along with the skill of those Confederate men and the love those same men had for their leader,has been played down in our own history books.
In my opinion this nation never had a better leader of men in battle - compared to Lee,Grant was a driver of cattle.
Robert E. Lee was the best commander this nation ever produced.
@@studleydewrite2942 bruh I’m saying Lee was a way better commander n Grant was terrible. South only lost because they were outnumbered. Thank God lol
I definitely would never utter that Lee is our nation's best commander. In particular the Gettysburg campaign was a disaster especially Picketts charge was a waste of life. The Union not only had the better means of war but eventually out generaled the confederacy too. It made the union victory even more certain.
I wish they would’ve done this video on Sherman.
Ulysses is a world hero .I’m Mexican and I admire grant . He was a fair just man. He was not antisemitic . There’s was a error where people called merchants Jews no matter what religion they were . He forbade “Jews “ in his military department meaning carpetbaggers or merchants . There’s a mistake in Mexico where people used to call gypsies “Hungarians “ but they were not necessarily from Hungary but from all over the world . Grant didn’t have any thing to do with Jews . He didn’t even know them
Out of curiosity were there that many Jewish soldiers in the civil war? I have truly never heard them mentioned much, though it must be stated I am not an avid reader of documents from the civil war, a few documentaries and reading on the lost cause and a few interviews of preeminent scholars of the war, that being said I have never sincerely heard of Jewish soldiers mentioned in a significant number or even as a major part of the war, in fact this Is the first time I have heard of Jewish soldiers mentioned as a distinct group as part of the civil war
I am happy to have my ignorance corrected, I would appreciate any elaboration, thanks
Good question. I imagine there were many that fought but that a large number were considered essential to the war effort, particularly because they worked in the garment district in New York City. NYC's garment district largely developed because of Jewish businesses and became essential for making uniforms, shoes, socks, tents and other military issue cloth or leather items.
Since large numbers of Jews settled in New York City and a large portion of them worked in the garment district as tailors, cobblers and other clothing-related skilled jobs, which were specialized at the time, I imagine many were deemed too essential for military duty. Plus, for good or for bad, there were huge numbers of Irish emigrating at the time being pressed into service sometimes, literally, as they departed immigration processing centers so the need for soldiers was being fulfilled through fresh immigrants.
Literally never heard of any Jewish soldiers during the civil war. Im sure there were like 2 or 3 and this guy thinks its important to mention
Yeah, that makes no sense. I’m not historian or ever really been interested in history from that time period, but I’m sure they would have made a movie of that by now.
@@MaskHysteria I appreciate the insight, I had never heard of Jewish soldiers ever being mentioned in the context of the Civil War
As an aside, what were Jews at the time considered as? Were they considered white or seperate? Were there also Jews in support of the confederacy? If not was it because of a liberative tradition in Jewish religious tradition?
I appreciate any answers, or not, if you do not wish to, I am already grateful for the other insight
Donald Altschiller estimates that at least 10,000 Jews served, about 7,000 for the Union and 3,000 for the Confederacy, with some 600 Jewish soldiers killed in battle
Source Wikipedia
I'm now living in Galena illinois, as far as the locals are concerned, he is a hero for propping up the local economy. Fighting words otherwise lol........
History is complicated and takes an open mind.
kissinger is a villian
Perfect villain character
Like what is this man saying? He should go to Cambodia
He is dead on ulysses S Grant owned slaves himself because it was the norm but later on realized he atrocities that were being made and liberated his own slaves and hundreds of others. A “ flawed hero “
So did Robert E Lee
@@shawnreed4859 Interesting. I will look into him I don’t know much
He had only one slave. He inherited William Jones from his father-in-law and, soon thereafter, set him free. Grant could've sold Jones for around $1,000 ($30,000 in today's money), but released him instead.
@@st3rba he inherited way more than one.
@@shawnreed4859 not true, he released the slaves he had inherited because the will of the man who had previously owned them stipulated they must be released 5 years after his death. Lee was a supporter of slavery, although he did accept the extinction of the practice he still firmly believed African Americans should not be treated equally with whites.
I Love this clip! but i do think its a little far fetched to call grant a racist at the beginning of the war, he was not as strong of an abolitionist as his father, who refused to attend his wedding because he was marrying into a slave holding family, but he was by all accounts a terrible slave holder when he was gifted a man named William Jones from his father in law, his neighbors did not like him working in the fields alongside his slave, and was constantly harassed for not being hard on him. And even when he was dirt poor, to the point where he was practically selling wood scraps to get by, he freed william and refused to sell him in a slave market that was growing rapidly. While he wasnt a john brown (who grants father actually lived with when john was a child) he was certainly not a racist entering the war.
Fascinating
Another large ethnic group that had "to prove" themselves as American citizens , were the Irish, there were so many of them they had their own brigades. There were about 150,000-200000 Irish born soldiers in the Union Army, and 20000 in the Confederate. The Irish were hated because they were Catholic, often appearing as sub-human in the magazines of the day. Native born Germans numbered up to 200000 . I am familiar with the Irish Story, (I am Irish-American ) the German story is a complete black box to me , were they as despised as their Irish Counterparts.. .... can anyone recommend any books... anyways there was more that enough fighting and dying to go around...
Grant is a drinker who probably exacerbated cancer growth in this throat, but it rarely if ever affected his ability to do his job. He would go on benders during the civil war as a way to cope with the stress of it all, but he would come back right as rain for battle. He was a functioning alcoholic
Eesh this guy isn’t terribly well-read on Grant. Virtually nothing to indicate that he comes into the war a racist and anti-Semite and leaves having evolved. He was remarkably anti-racist for his time and circumstances long before his appointment to Cairo, IL began.
Everyone on UA-cam always hating on us Ohioans lol.
Can anyone recommend some good books on Ulysses Grant?? - Not American, just interested in the man and history of the time.....And yes, military history. If anyone can point me in the right direction on this topic, would greatly be appreciated 🙂
Grant has an autobiography that is a good read, albeit a little dry at times. But if you like books such as Caesar's GALLIC WARS, you'll like THE PERSONAL MEMOIRS OF ULYSSES S GRANT.
@@dustybaron5942 Hi Dusty, thanks for your reply and direction. I am in the process of searching online for Grant's book.
Grant admired Lee and ordered that his troops not celebrate their victory at Appomattox. Grant wrote about his own feelings toward the surrendering Confederates : " I feel anything but celebrating the defeat of a foe who fought so hard and for so long.....they are our countrymen again". His thoughts mirrored Lee's in terms of creating a " reconciliation" between the sides and a spirit of harmony. Lee objected to any southern action that would cause controversy and he had General Nathaniel bedford Forrest step down as the first president of the KKK. However, Grant agreed with Lee that the newly freed slaves may never successfully " amalgamate" into white society and Grant tried hard to get the Congress to annex Haiti for the purpose of creating a new homeland for the freed slaves....similar to Israel being created for the Jewish people following WWII. Don't forget that Grant threatened to resign from the army if Lee were ever charged with a crime, and his parole given by Grant not honored. Grant RESPECTED Lee and his men ...unlike TODAY, where ignorant "woke" Bolsheviks tear down memorials to brave Southern men and leaders....some who fought to defend their HOMES , like Lee , and NOT because of the argument about slavery.
The confederacy fought to expand slavery and the statues to confederates should be taken down
While I didn't watch the entire episode, it's weird hearing Grant being summarily called a racist when he emancipated a slave that Colonel Dent, his father-in-law, gave to him. Even more odd considering how at that particular point in time Grant was so poor that he was peddling firewood on the streets of St. Louis.
No disrespect intended to either the host or the guest, but history requires more nuance than "Yeah Grant was a racist." In saying this, however, just because a person believes slavery is wrong doesn't necessarily mean that the same person believes in human equality. See early Abraham Lincoln as a reference. Yet, even if the same can be attributed to Grant, it is still worth noting the nuance of such a position instead of merely creating a straw man.
Heroes don't commit war crimes and genocide.
????
True, lee was a terrible person. But idk what that has to do with grant
Grant wasn't a villain (he did some shady thing as president) but as a general all things being equal it's all about attrition. Even if you are fighting a superior force (like the south was) if you have materiel and 10 times the soldiers, every battle reduces their ability to wage war. That's how many major wars were won, plenty cannon fodder. I don't see many generals if you research being anything great. If the generals in the south were switched the south would have failed in the first year.
He didn’t do anything shady as president. He was just too trusting of people and was taken advantage of. I am not saying he was a good president though, he was not really built to be a president
How many generals did Lincoln go through before he found Grant, who turned things around? If it's just a question of numbers why did the others fail?
HERO! Great American. Great General. Great Man.
This video proves just how misunderstood US Grant is in the modern world. US Grant never wanted to be a politician. He only ran for president because he did not want to see the South revert back to pre-war arrangements, which is what would have happened. You say, well look what the South became with sharecropping and such, imagine what it would have been like if Grant had not taken the presidency. And he didn't drink any more than you do, whoever you is. Grant is my favorite American.
The guy is not really telling full truth. Ulyssess was never strongly against other races or ethnic groups. He merely wasn't going to principly stand for or against at the time. He was pretty standard fair.
the term Insurrectionist. Is that accurate terminology? I’m asking
No it’s a product of the Apparatus. When this fellow is a full fledged member of
Not an insurrections when they had no weapons, clear motive or goal. It was just a riot
I’d also like to know.
This liberal idiot thinks Jan 6th was an insurrection. Jan 6th was the day a group of unarmed citizens who thought they were protecting the Democratic process occupied an empty building after being let in by the police. It's the most overblown shit you've ever seen. And it comes off the back of a whole year of looting and rioting which the Democrats ignored.
Of course not, this guy subtly throws in his bias here and there
The biggest hero in the history of these United States
The drinking is over blown and the south's rewriting of history. They pushed Grant out of the hero position putting up Lee. Its a big baloney story with lightweight historical analysis. Grants book explains the war exactly. He was a hero and only forced by the south to be their deserved villain.
Wtf - yea he’s a hero, also “it’s so hard to disagree with people,” “trump tried to mess with election” … “I disagree”
He realized that the Union had more men and materiel than the South and ground Lee down.
This guy doesn't know history that well
"He tended to drink too much". Understatement of the century.
Patently false
Either way, I’d take a drunken Grant over any general or president in US history over 90% of the others. He’s one of the GOATs.
@@MatinAmericahe was never drunk during battles, he only got drunk when he got bored between battles
Ulysses was a gangster
J6 was not an insurrection! That's ridiculous. Release the camera footage.
ulysses s grant uncle of fred
Ulysses
My goodness, this guy should know better. January 6th was NOT an insurrection. The very fact that the Civil War is described as a form of insurrection should be a prime example! A riot and an armed rebellion, which is what an insurrection is, are very different things. And no, the 900 or so people charged at the Capitol were NOT, in fact, charged with insurrection, nor was Donald Trump. The Justice Department avoided the insurrection charge because it lacked the ability to prove insurrection. This guy is willfully misleading the listeners.
The Jan. 6th rioters had a goal of overturning the Constitutional process to form the next presidential government. That makes it an insurrection. And we aren't even including the fact that Trump's minions were trying to find a way to flip the results so that he stayed in the White House as unelected president. This further makes those events a part of the insurrection. And multiple people HAVE been charged with insurrection, so you don't even have your disinformation straight.
I mean, my goodness, you should know better if you're American who has a basic grasp of civics.
BTW, it does NOT take a "riot and an armed rebellion" to create an insurrection. More than once, we've seen mobs of people overthrow governments through a sheer mass of people, so quit trying to excuse away the MAGA mob violence that Trump inspired.
What's worse is that the ONLY TIME in US history that a Confederate flag found its way into the US Capitol was when a MAGA insurrectionist paraded it around there.
Either you love the Union and the USA, or you love Trump and his cult of insurrectionist traitors.
Please stop giving this biased, history revisionist a platform. He is doing harm with his opinions.
Hello everybody Will Smith plays the best flawed hero Hancock who might have had slaves in LA, California.
Not an insurrection.. a modern day peasant revolution.
Idk what history classes this guy had, but Grant was a terrible general. He’s the type of guy that figured out the hard way, pushing uphill is a terrible idea. The south fought a better war because they had Lee n the north had Grant. They were just outnumbered (thank God.)
Just gonna leave this here... ua-cam.com/video/O1MQflqi2VM/v-deo.html
cant fight a better war and lose
@@benmorgan830 by his even Nazis fought better still lost since they were out numbered
Grant saved the Union. Lee was beating every other Union general until Grant took over. Lol Idk what history classes you had.
Grant was a great general, his Vicksburg campaign was magnificent in the utilization of combined arm tactics and maneuver. He was a great logistician as well.
grant was terrible to the natives. dont let this guy fool you. he was beyond cruel to them. killed the women and the children because they were savages.
Not true! What are your sources?
You can't name ANY president of the nineteenth century who was a greater friend to Native Americans than Grant.
Grant was actually one of the better Presidents when it came to Native relations, creating the Board of Indian Commissioners and lobbying for them to received proper funding. He wasn’t perfect, no President was, but he was far from the Indian killed of someone like Jackson.
*
I encourage everyone to check out this book by Dinesh Dsouza, Hillary America. Please don't focus so hard on Hillary, but please do on Dinesh understanding of our American history and the truth evil from the democratic party.
Absolutely fucking stupid. The Democrats of old are not the Democrats of today, same with Republicans. You fucking idiots have no ability to look at context, platform or beliefs. As a historian, I suggest you look at the individuals and what they specifically believe in and not the fuckin name of the team they're on.
I would be hard cash the Democrats of the era you're speaking on would vote Republican today.
You far right loons would call Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln a Marxist by today standards.
He’s a corporate hack. Both parties are evil. Republicans have been worse. He’s no better than Hilary.
Lol I encourage everyone to read Dinesh’s history. Don’t focus so much on the criminal past or the adultery but…well nevermind. 😂
If bloodthirsty murdering fascists are heroes then he could be a hero in some alternate reality.
Not really the confederacy's death was a truly great thing for this nation, literally and spiritually, ( you wouldn't have America as it is today, they were secessionist), as well as removing the stain of the institution of slavery,
In fact the greatest travesty was Johnson' friendliness with the Confederate General's and their extremely lenient treatment as traitors to the land, the allowing of vile evil such as the lost cause to take root and having history books rewrite the whole history of the war allowing a whole chunk of America to live in an alternate universe
These Mistakes cement Johnson as an abhorrent traitor to the cause that thousands dies for,
The mishandling of reconstruction and refusal to essentially (denazify) the south as was done in Nazi germany was also a travesty, leaving Freed slaves to be victims of vengeance by an uncontrolled and bitter south was tragic and leaving no avenue for their uplifting from poverty,
Some stories about their release was literally them being told to leave, with absolutely nothing to their name and face the fangs of a south reeling from the loss
You’re an idiot to history - murder is a mechanism of the human story
lol
Cry more 😂
lol grant was not a drunk, he calls grant a racist and an anti semite but Henry Kissinger needs understanding ?