Controversial NEW StarCraft 2 Balance Patch...
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- StarCraft 2 Balance Update September 2023 (LIVE SERVER)- Terran, Zerg & Protoss receive a wide array of changes, buffs & nerfs in the largest StarCraft 2 patch in several years. Read the patch notes: news.blizzard.com/en-us/starc...
0:00 New updates & overview
0:50 Patch Goals & the "Balance Council"
2:30 Terran Changes
12:25 Zerg Changes
25:05 Protoss Changes
32:35 Strong Opinions & Winter's Summary
49:00 Final Thoughts & Impact
StarCraft 2 Balance Patch September 2023 Breakdown - Patch 5.0.12
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Winterstarcraft, Starcraft 2 2023, SC2 2023
#Starcraft2 #SC2 #RTS - Ігри
I don't even play starcraft but your passion for the game is incredibly infectious
i’ve never played SC2 yet i watch his videos every time. i don’t even know how it started, but i was hooked ever since he narrated Brenda leaving creep to kill Ricky, the accidental brood lord
The playerbase of SC2 is only shrinking. The game is simply too annoying to play.
@@nightmareTomekwith this new patch that number is only going to get smaller lol.
@@cosmonauthal7651I use to play ladder now it's coop and arcade lol
I'm really curious if you watched all 50 min of a balance patch vid for a game you don't play. Actual game casts - sure, but a balance patch?
NOTE: The map used to show the Cyclone changes - Advanced Unit Tester (BALANCE TEST) - has a bug where the Cyclone attacks 2x instead of 1x (per attack), effectively doubling the DPS. It still easily beats 2 stalkers or queen/roach but significantly less HP is left over. I REALLY should have noticed this. The visual was mostly to demonstrate how the new Cyclone works rather than exact scenarios, but still an important correction.
Apologies for Terran players fantasizing over the Cyclone, it will still be quite good but not necessarily the strongest unit in the game. My criticism of changing an early game unit to fill an entirely different role still stands, but these were inaccurate demonstrations of its strength. I'm sure there will plenty of clickbait videos around it coming soon™!
I don't know if this should be a comment in the video below. How many people are going to come down here and read it? You should just refilm the whole video beat-for-beat so players don't get misinformed. =D
@@Dustin_the_wind yeah man that mother ship went down super fast!!! haha what the!
Either way, I think its going to be a slog for Z or P to even hold a natural, the reason Clones were nerfed originally.
Wearing a tie? Suppossed to legitimize your opinions on the patch? Or did you just come back from a funeral or wake, if so I'll allow it.
@@Dustin_the_wind yea I thought that was just some further adjustments from the first announced changes cause those cyclones were killing EVERYTHING.
Winter's spared us from being blinded by sheer vermillion energy. A moustache would have broken the internets
JimmY! This is boring Update Stuff! I'm not reading this...
As a former Protoss, I thank you Winter for speaking up. It is heartbreaking to see.
protoss audience here and gone through all your heartbreaking casts, thank you Winter for speaking up
Terran is op as fog
A passive vision system would be a start. It's even more of a penalty not to have it for its expensive slow units.
@@dshlango yea and it's not only like certain units are but rather the race is too versatile for it's strength and lacks real weaknesses.
@@nfzeta128 I would argue that marines, medevacs, and ghosts are OP (if your APM is high enough) and carrying the rest of the race.
Just to give some anecdotal evidence, I used to play Protoss and I’ve been watching less and less this year. There are so few late tournament Protoss games, and when there are the games are just painful. It’s honestly been driving me away from the game.
I'm reminded of Dawn of War when the pros in that game were effectively also the balance team, which resulted in Eldar getting kid gloves every time a balance patch came around. Eldar was the most popular faction with said pros, which of course meant they were favored heavily for "balanced" changes, while everyone else got nerfs, until eventually you either played Eldar or you lost to one.
I really appreciate Winter's commentary on this. Thank you Winter. You will notice that whenever Terran gets changed, its 'something for something', but when other races get changed, it is a straight up nerf with the justification of 'a terran unit got changed so now this needs nerfed'. Anyone who played DoW 1 will recognize this as a warning sign. History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.
Let's not pretend Dawn of War had a balance team.
The meta evolved from exclusively chaos raptors for 2 expansions until the Necrons came along and then it was exclusively wraiths all game long, where it remained until today.
It was a great fun tabletop-accurate RTS with very interesting mechanics and character, probably the best received Warhammer 40k game ever, but arguably the balance was tightest in vanilla and then they just stopped even trying. (Lol Imperial Guard grenades firing at 100% accuracy on the move.)
playing Eldar or losing to one is how the actual 40k tabletop game is going right now so they were ahead of the curve it seems
A year or so ago, the zerg were in a similar spot, IIRC; And if it continues as a revolving door, then it's not a major issue.
I totally agree with you, Winter! The numbers are crazy, 60-40 split TvP is wild - I didn't realize it was that bad. It's frustrating seeing the race that doesn't need help gets all this attention for a unit that was already "fine". In an ideal world, sure, variability in unit composition is great. Seeing every Terran game go into lots of marines, maybe some marauders, ghosts, and a handful of tanks and widow mines is kind of lame (oversimplification, of course). BUT, that should be the focus when there's a 60-40 split between races. Balance the races first, then address variability imo.
Balancing a game for the pro vs the casual player seems like a tough challenge (i.e how to buff pros playing protoss vs casuals playing protoss). But this patch really didn't seem to try to buff protoss at all, regardless of the player. Is the answer more microable units for pro's with higher APM? Idk.
A different note: coming from Dota2, it's weird seeing the patch approach in SC2. Sure, Dota has it's own huge changes, but it's got dozens of patches a year, and sometimes a change is an item gets +3% damage, or a spell costs -4% mana... stuff on that scale (of course the "dozens of patches a year" plays a huge role, not to mention $$, developers, fanbase, etc.).
Like, we saw void rays get super-nerfed, why not give them +4% damage now? Make marine stim make them shoot 40% faster instead of 50%? Give protoss units +5% faster shield regen? These are very very rough suggestions I haven't thought through at all - just my point is, I feel like patching should be an incremental, small, numbers game. Find the issues where Protoss are obviously at a loss (what loses the majority of games in that 60-40 split?), and buff it slightly, and wait a couple months to see the result. Easier said than done sure...
Protoss struggles early unless you cheese but good players will hold off the cheese just enough and then your mid game is crap. They do beat Terran very late but it never makes it that far unless one player is much better and just playing with their food. To be fair though it is generally accepted by game devs that balancing a game around pro play can be dangerous and unhealthy for the game but at this stage of the game's life I think SC2 is an exception considering more players watch it YT than actually play competitively. Very few high level new players this year and none in the top 10. They must be worried they will chase off some pros and then the game totally dies but you can always revert or use an older patch for tournies so I dunno. Too many cooks with different interests working on balance and no real devs tham can design new animations, units, maps etc.
My theory: toss players are generally to high ranked because in lower mmrs they rush higher through Zerg...
No this is really simple. The whole point of a ladder is that you will always have competitive games for your skill level. Saying there is imba at any particular mmr is just saying "I think I should be ranked higher but can't because other races have it easier". As if that really matters or somehow you will then blossom into serial. No one cares just have fun playing the game.
I always choose to favor balance at the pro level because, at the very least, it shows that if i were to somehow play well enough I could deal with it. It is possible.
On the other hand, if the at the highest level there is an imbalance present then there is nowhere to go. If at the absolute peak of play one race is dominant over the other then that is it.
Now that Ultralisks cost 25 less minerals and can burrow slightly faster, I think I will start using them a lot more. There, now we can pretend that someone actually said that. This is like hearing your parents say they have no favorite child while your brother (Terran) is going with them to six flags while you stay behind with Aunt Brenda who won't stop talking about flying in the Brood Wars
Well at least its now like buy 11 get 1 free......
@@OSYofRR Buy 20 get 1 free*. They went from a total cost of 500 res to 475.
Ignoring that gas was usually the limiting factor for ultras, not minerals. Usually Zerg floats a ton of minerals in the late game as they're starved for gas to afford their other critical tech units like infestors, vipers, lurkers, corruptors, and brood lords. Ultras costing 25 less minerals is a joke of a balance change.
I legitimately forgot that ultralisks could burrow. What an absolute nothing burger of a change
They should have kept the cost and got rid of that armor upgrade.
Playing Ultras always feels weird. Kinda like infestors coming out and not having enough mana to cast. You get access to them, but immediately need a lengthy upgrade just to make them work as intended. They're usually good about removing these kinds of "required" upgrades, so hopefully they address this one.
As someone who has a long memory bordering on Dwarven Book of Grudges level pettiness, I still remember that for extended periods of time, Terran was far from the favourite child.
Any time Terran had something OP? Or even just arguably strong? That got nerfed to the ground within the month.
Zerg had something literally gamebreaking? Took Blizz the better part of a decade to even bother looking into it.
Of course, the moment it even looks like the shoe might be on the other foot, people screech that Terran is somehow the "favourite child". If that is the case, then it's an entirely new development as even last year, I recall people complaining that the balance team was heavily Zerg favoured. Hard to call one actually favourable update after that history a pattern.
Meanwhile, Protoss was dealing with middle-child syndrome with devs occasionally remembering that they were a thing too.
And while I haven't been keeping up with the game much in recent months, Protoss also has a lack of actually good players behind it; Have they learned the ancient art of using run-bys yet?
Winter you nailed it.
They had a month to give colossus a goddamn buff to armor or something so they don't just fall over against marauders or roaches. They had a month to give void rays a use other than fighting off corruptors after you've, somehow, survived to maxed out skytoss. The archon could have gotten a buff to be immune to EMP. Adepts could have been given the adrenal ling treatment to become a viable threat for high dps harassment and high mobility catching of armies moving on the field. Stalkers could have gotten something as lame and boring as a slight range upgrade or, gods forbid, they get an upgrade that lets stalkers get a burst of shield regen after blinking or something to let them fight in micro heavy late game compositions without getting rolled completely. Tempests could have splash on ground attacks with tectonic destabilizer. There's all kinds of options. Personally, I think removing the zealot charge damage was one of the most devastating nerfs in the entire game but, somehow, that made it through just fine, even while we were nerfing the everloving shit out of carriers for being uninteractive. Meanwhile, BC's exist to not interact other than to fly in, yamato your units, strafe the mineral lines, and teleport out, and widow mines are the most uninteractive thing in the game since infested terrans but are untouched.
And the cycone? boring. If any terran unit deserved a makeover it was the Banshee, the unit that requires two tech lab upgrades to ever remotely be playable for anybody that isn't Uthermal trolling the ladder.
I love the baneling nerf. Banelings never should have been able to roll in on an a move, completely destroy a maxed out army and delete mineral lines, all while having the hp to soak siege tank/storm fire and still close on the army. But. To nerf the baneling and the disruptor and then leave the widow mine untouched is unhinged.
I'll go farther, Ghost EMP shouldn't remove shields. I'll say it again. Ghost EMP should not do damage to protoss units by removing shields, or should do much less damage than it does now, and as a damage over time, instead of instantly popping half the protoss army health pool, while you stim your bio, and roll through it, or back them up to their bases while they drain shield batteries trying to recover and you siege your tanks on their base before they can fight again, just to have plenty of energy on ghosts to repop all the shields.
I would like to thank Jimmy and Silver for finally having a professional dressing professionally for his professional analysis. He could even pass for a senator.
40 years too young to be a senator these days!
You mean he could pass for a corruptor.
@@BigHeadClan 40 years from now, the average age will probably be up by another 40 years.
*stealthed Patch Notes commentary*:
Terran are currently winning or are even in all matchups, so we buffed terran and nerfed the shit out of the other two races.
Widow mines are overpowered, but instead of nerfing them, we gave them a tiny buff to remind everyone we are aware of the widow mine, but are actively avoiding balancing them in any way shape or form
We recognized that one terran unit wasn't excellent and best in class, the Cyclone, so we buffed it to make it relevant at all times and against all enemies in the game.
Banelings were capable of being useful and almost were approaching the level of widow mines, so they've been nerfed
Like banelines, infestors were almost becoming a strong spellcaster for zerg, so we've nerfed their only offensive skill that allowed zerg to tackle constant drops that terran abuse almost every game. Their range is now also shorter to ensure all infestors will die via snipe, get emp'd, feedbacked or straight up killed by tanks/marines for the sin of attempting to, or possibly successfully casting one spell.
Protoss win almost nothing, so we changed almost nothing consequential about them to ensure the status quo.
We recognize that protoss struggle in the early game vs terran, so we tiny inconsequential buffs to their late game units to give protoss false hope that they can remain competitive in the late game, though none of the changes we added actually will affect lategame, since vikings will shoot down all protoss air units with impunity still.
They should have included these notes, would at least give you something to laugh about.
mans out here like its a sales presentation at a convention center
Hahahaha
Naw he looks like 12 yr old being forced to go to church lmao
"Hey, this ghost unit is pretty strong, so we'll nerf it, but then also nerf all the units that would actually benefit from the ghost nerf just to make sure you don't feel the effects of the nerf."
My thoughts exactly. It's not really a nerf if you're also doing trade-off nerfs. It's just an overall adjustment of the tempo of the game.
thats not true.
If only.
Baneling nerf is a marine megabuff.
Yeah the people running these blizzard games don't know what they're doing.
I agree entirely with your analysis. I'm not sure why Blizzard hates the Protoss, but it seems like every single patch just nerfs them even harder out of existence. Sad really.
Bblame that monumental, overpromoted clown Metzen and his legacy
@@sonoffenix3399 bro this is a community patch. Blizzard had nothing to do with this.
@@potatoman8194 How do you imagine the Community Balance Council came to be, exactly?
@@sonoffenix3399 So you think the devs did better job balancing than the community council?
I love that there's a special segment for the "Strong Opinions".
I noticed the complete lack of opinions during all the other segments. Totally couldn't tell any opinions in the rest of the video. Remarkable.
Winter, spot on with your patch notes commentary. I agree 100%. GOD SAVE THE PROTOSS!
So generous of the terran council to give the other races cheaper air armor.
the more and more I saw how winter read these changes I already knew that oh boy this opinion segment is going to be spicy
Watching this video I felt like I was on a job interview. It was going really well to begin with. Halfway trough I was sure I had it, it was going so well.
Something snapped and by the end of it I was thrown out of the building, spat at and told to never to come back again and that they do not welcome my kind here.
Also, my way out as I was manhandled by the security I overheard Brenda from HR shouting something about police and court.
Everybody else talking about the patch or complimenting (deservedly) Winter’s duds, but this comment made my day.
Angry winter has been and always will be the most entertaining to watch
I really appreciate your opinion section. It’s helpful to get your perspective. Thanks again for the casts and your passion.
Why are we even surprised anymore? The "balance" council has always had a Modus Operandi....when in doubt; buff Terran.
And nerv Zerg. Can't remember an buff for Zerg for years now less making ultras little smaller but equally useless ... just cause serral. Normal players get eaten by toss of they don't all in until minute 8
Not only a balance patch, but seeing Winter lookin' extra fine today.
Way to go to make our day, a little bit better
I dont want to keep seeing marine, marauder, medivac steamrolling protoss every series. And just by spectating i can tell that widow mine drops have immediate and almost guaranteed impact greater than the occasional +2 baneling getting into someones 3rd/4th base.
Just the different times those hit makes a world of difference. Losing 5-8 workers early game to window mine drops is MUCH worse than losing 7-11 workers to a baneling run in the mid-late game. Made worse by the fact that you can lose those 5-8 workers and the Terran could lose absolutely nothing in return by just picking up the mines and leaving. Banelings on the other hand don't live, don't give back larva and therefore can't be reused to kill the same amount of workers again, they also are vulnerable for a much longer time as they're melee.
If you drop Serral from the TvZ table it becomes 46% to 54% in favor of Terran. For PvZ it's 52%/48% in favor of Zerg.
Terran is OPAF, we just have Serral to thank for nobody seeing it in TvZ. I'm REALLY getting tired of Zerg getting hit with (e.g.) baneling nerfs because Serral exists, all while we're buffing Terrans and leaving widow mines alone.
To be sure, Protoss have an underpowered problem, but Terran just straight up needs nerfs without the BS over-compensating buffs/nerfs to other races.
I can understand the nerf to encourage other types of play, but how did they buff any other units?
@ironmonkey1512 not sure what you're asking? Was this meant to be a reply to someone else?
True, Terran is OP as fog
Terran needs some real weaknesses in their design. They have too much and too much of it is relatively easy to use. Heck I think the biggest thing stopping Terran from rampaging across ladder is that it takes some killer instinct to push the advantages the race has and that requires map control.
Of course you could also be cheeky after getting to a stable position and just use their op defenses and just slow win the game while the enemy can't easily retaliate with flanks and such.
Like I see even pro games where Terran gets owned by zealot or baneling runbys when bunkers and mines exist, even one or two tanks helps a lot in defense and other than the tank the rest of options are cheap enough in supply to have at your most vulnerable bases and not lose too much in army strength as the Terran army is usually supply efficient as well.
@@dshlango The top four terran players except maybe Cure are better than Serral but actually play the inferior race. You would know that if you actually watched the tournaments. The current meta is setup for Serral to win everything. The Terrans have to be so much better to even compete against Zerg which is why those numbers should be much higher for those guys. The problem is the skill level past Cure drops off like a fin rock. If you take the mean of the middle 4 players of each race its +3% Terran which is good enough for competitive play.
Not only PvT casts were incredibly rare (cuz nobody wants to cast a stomp), but it was painful to watch. It's probably all downhill from here, big sad.
Yea I just stopped watching all PvTs, even the ones where the Protoss totally outplayed and pulled a win out their ass it started to grate on how hard they had to work for it, or how bad the Terran had to mess up.
I personnally don't watch "any" protoss games because they almost always lose against both other races.
Rip Protoss. Cyclone all ins for several months... Frost Giant, please give us something!
40% vs 60% wr... that's insane. At this point, give mama core back please. I want mama to come home :(
A tie, huh? Well shit, Winter actually lookin' half the professionnal he should be. Very sobre outfit. I like it.
Winter showing up to the new balance patch VS Winter showing up to his own wedding
Sobre is fitting, because Protoss have been brought out back and shot.
Edit (watched opinion part): Glad even winter sees and admits it out loud.
So now you can just mass cyclone against all Protoss units from early game to late and have it work. Unlike Bio they don't even need a couple other units to make the combo good, you can just go literally only cyclones and win against most protoss comps. It's only really lings that could do something to them and a couple hellbats still own them even if they can't one shot any more, or you could just use mines.
Edit: Apparently that damage shown was a bug. So instead you just have to pump out a few more with reactors and maybe they don't win against late game units as hard.
the entire reason terran could never play mech vs protoss is the immortal, nothing has changed. Immortals will still rip you limb from limb if you try to mech vs toss. Also you need barracks to make ghosts, and terran without emp loses lategame fights vs protoss. Though with EMP terran is WAY too favored in late fights.
@@darksniper1n If you think immortal will counter the new cyclone, you don't even play the game. Lock-on cast range is 6 = immortal's fire range. Therefore, immortal can only hit cyclone ONCE before it be taken down by mass cyclones with minimum micro.
@@darksniper1n I would LOVE to know who these Terrans are who never build a barracks.
@@darksniper1n immortal has a range of 6, cyclone has a range of 9. ????
edit: also, immortal does dps of 28 against a cyclone, but you can build two cyclones at once & they cost half as much so ur really facing 2 cyclones per immortal so it's going up against a dps of 50 with about as much combined health as an immortal has, and they're faster so the immortal's barrier doesnt even matter bc while the cyclones arent damaging the immortal during that time the immortal isnt damaging them either
Well Protoss is going to have to go blink Stalker or Cyclones chew them up and then they are predictable doing so and will lose mid game transition battle.
Thanks for speaking on the matter, as someone who only watches games, I think the game would be better if protoss had a win rate that was a little higher.
If Protoss had players that were a little bit better... her0 is number one? I don't like his gameplay, he's going blink all-in all the time, and a ton of risks with bad scouting. I'd like to see Parting or s0s again.
A+click super hard
@@mnemosineastral3626 bro, the fuck are u on about?
@@nightmareTomek he basically has to. let terran get to mid game MMM and what does any protoss have to counter? super gimmicky disruptors that just got nerfed? hts that fell out of favor several patches ago due to ghosts? almost useless colossi? protoss is forced into high risk placed because they have no reliable army composition vs mmm siege tank.
You'd need more spells than harry potter meanwhile the terran just has to stutter step, pop a few emps, and siege their tanks.
@@nightmareTomek I* want to laugh at you man but no. U do know that early game is the best time for protoss to damage terran and win since mid to lat is so terran favored?
I love professional-Winter. Looking very dapper sir.
It's to bad this patch didn't buff Jimmy; that guy needs to get on it.
Jimmy picked out the tie.
i'll be honest i thought the terran bias was just blizz balancing thing
coz i find it funny that armor upgrades for fliers are cheaper now on z/p
meanwhile armory armor upgrades was combined into 1 upgrade years ago
doesnt sound helpful but that will always be a buff to vikings libs and medivacs
also when winter mentioned buffing an extremely specialized unit to do something else
i remembered that corruptors exist and they never tried to make that thing more useful
but anyway cylone changes!
That unit tester is actually broken I think. The cyclone shoots twice compared to the live cyclone.
All fixed now
Seeing Winter this pissed made me sad. He needs to hug his plushies :
as someone who loves to watch this game as a sport, I think protoss started to go downhill when the mothership core got removed (yes, really). It is really clear that Zerg had Queens and Terran had marines and/or reapers but protoss had a subpar defender in the stalker+zealot combo - adepts were meant to fix that i believe but... well, we all watch the games
MC? Literally the cheesiest unit the game has seen since BW dark Templars, but in plenty of time for a cannon rush, you just didn't need cannons.
@@SD-jf7nb MCs were chessy but the game back then demanded some cheese, we were stuck in either rushing or late game blob, no in between
I maintain what I’ve always said from the start of SC2 patches.
DO NOT PATCH MULTIPLE UNITS AT ONCE. Do one or two and see how it affects gameplay.
Developers just don’t seem to get it.
Yeah. Algo devs know this from experience. You can’t accurately measure the impact of more than a couple of changes because of the curse of dimensionality.
Move Lockdown ("Interference Matrix") back to ghosts and move EMP back to Science Vessels ("Ravens"). Part of what makes IM so good is that many of the juiciest targets for it (Colossus, Siege Tank, to name two big ones) have no way to shoot up. Having to cloak to get lockdown off feels more in line with both what the ability does, what the ghost does, and the legacy lore of SC.
Further, part of what makes EMP so great in TvP is that it's very hard to get feedback off on Ghosts just due to their tiny size and that feedback is a single target spell. Ravens, being much larger, would be easier to target for a Feedback - but would still outrange Feedback with how EMP radius works.
It would be so easy to test, too. Barely an inconvenience.
I would actually prefer to get science vessles back since they look better/cooler and I personally dislike that repair costs finite resources. Science vessels could open new options for ultra lategame mech - without making wbf repair free.
The part you didn't mention is that ghosts can cloak and so become untargetable for feedback, even if you see their shadows.
@@berndarndt9924 yea not only does emp outrange feedback because it's a splash that doesn't need a target (so the range number is fake in a max range spell off) but, even though it's rarely used, stealth just guarantees you get it off in most situations.
Honestly I feel like the concepts behind BW's Vessels and Ghosts were just better. Irradiate is a DOT, less bursty than Snipe even if it does like double damage. EMP is laggier, easier to see it and dodge. Lockdown, if changed to I-Matrix, could still be viable to use now with easier controls. Dunno how powerful spammable D-Matrix would be but it'd be interesting at least.
Make Stasis Ward shoot out mini-disruptor shots.
Make Swarm Hosts spawn mini-banelings.
No? Why not? Because its ridiculous to have a burrowed unit that shoots bombs automatically?
Widow Mines exist, don't they? Lets remove Widow Mines too then. No? Oh i see how it is..
If I could remove a single unit from each roster, I'd remove Widow Mines from Terran, Disruptors from Protoss, and Dropperlords from Zerg.
Widow mines are just anti-fun zero engagement low risk high reward nonsense. They're just bad for the game.
Disruptors are a crutch that has been shoved under the Protoss's arm to justify breaking their legs.
Dropperlords should be a universal upgrade to all overlords.
Idk if this is what you're trying to say (?) but mines are beyond broken. ling bling muta? Well how about 60 dead units (with upgrades) when you're not looking for a split second? Or your ENTIRE mineral line? Herpaderpaderp
Swarm hosts spawning baneling/scourge would be sick. Abathur would be proud
YES FINALLY someone had to the courage to say what we are ALL feeling! Winter u perfectly and articulately summed up al the issues with protos right now! When u said, "it break my heart to see a photos player micro their heart out sending out 8 disrupter shots for maybe one to hit and then loose all their army while trying to recall home!" I felt that in my soul!!! Such a perfect and poetic summation! THANK-YOU!!!
You might also enjoy Zombie Grub's breakdown of the patch, too; I've really enjoyed seeing winter's take on it, and comparing all the nuance
They did the exact same thing to Protoss they did in the last patch. Movement speed adjustments, upgrade cost adjustments and a big impolite hand gesture to the actual problems with an obligatory useful unit nerf. The first time was suspicious enough, the second time tells me there's a friggin agenda, I mean the balance council is technically all terran.
Protoss needs a more reliable splash damage unit (I vote tempests post upgrade for splash vs ground units) faster recall speed and a better ground to air unit than the stalker.
Was thinking the same thing. Protoss have no good energy-less, accessible splash damage despite being the ones that need it the most.
I literally thought about a splash change to the tempest in a video a while back. Basically either a normal aoe splash or something akin to mutalisks where it fires off small arcs to units nearby, even if just for air.
Are you crazy? Toss has psi, colos, archon, and the disruptor. Now you want long range, fast flying, slpash unit? So a flying tank who does not have to siege up?
@@wischmopps293 psi storm is a spell not reliable, archon isn't really splash damage and has no range. Disruptors are the definition of unreliable. So no not crazy whatsoever.
@@wischmopps293psi is unstackable garbage, colossi can't kill anything that isn't tier 1 infantry despite being the most expensive land unit in the roster, Archon is easy fodder for EMP, and this leaves the disruptor for everything.
So i am currently a Terran main who hates versing protoss with a passion. My winrate against storm is abysmal.
However i agree with Winter here. As a spectator i think Protoss needs some serious buffs even if i get wrecked by them on the ladder
Increase unit variety by nerfing mass baneling.
Mass marine and mass mine over here completely untouched.
What if EMP damage was reduced by shield upgrades? Gives Protoss another reason to get shield upgrades and requires ghosts to use multiple EMPs on the same units of Protoss as a result, like they have to stack snipes on certain units
Maybe allow guardian shield to dampen the effectiveness of EMP's. Or give the mothership something really good to combat them. Idk. Emp's never felt like a good mechanic to me. Its just so hard to deal with.
@@justfitz08 I always put it like this. Imagine if psi storm instantly did up to half of a units health in damage, or 100 damage, whichever is smaller, instantly...
How fucking broken would that be... How OP would high templar be...
@@cl5258 That comparison doesn't even really do it justice either. EMP is effective against every single unit type protoss has. Psi storm has very specific use cases and is meant to counter only certain unit comps.
Add to the fact that Ghosts are noticeably more versatile units. Their auto attack isn't great, but it surely beats the HT a-move. Then you have the benefit of stealth harassment and nukes, which can be mildly annoying.
HT's have feedback too, but are still well short of what the ghost can accomplish. Even spreading your units out doesn't necessarily do that great against Ghosts. And I say all this as someone who played primarily Zerg, and a little Terran on the side. I hardly touch Protoss. As a race I think they're thematically pretty cool, and they have alot of fun units on paper, I just felt like the other two are better at teaching new players SC2 fundamentals, and have a higher ceiling if you manage to really learn them.
@@justfitz08i am just waiting for the emp to get moved to banshee and become AOE as a pulse around it
Imagine the plays, imagine the counters, imagine the possibilities...
(Though it would probably have to cast it on cooldown or on death)
@@stixinst5791 Or maybe just have the Ghosts fire the emps out of their sniper rifle.
Better yet, let's just combine scan and emp. And put a constant emp ring around sensor towers too. Or we could just make the floor lava on the protoss side of the map.
Real talk if there were a fully-backed design team still on this game, there's a universe where you can maintain game balance and simultaneously delete the Widow Mine. Maybe it's with a buff to the Siege Tank? Anyways we live in the worst timeline.
Well they don't have any devs working on it, essentially just modding+. Also too many cooks spoils the broth as they say and that can be what is going on here with the balance team along with input from pros and other heads like Pig. Everyone has a different interest where as a proper dev team has an interest of bringing in the most players so the game would at the very least have FUN changes that are new so players like uThermal or Cure would win early just because they thrive in chaos and players like Serral would do better later between patches because it takes a bit to master timings and macro when they are many new changes. These few changes don't shake the game up enough. I know they have to be careful but at this point you can always revert if its not working. Make the patches so big it takes months to master so we see more creative players winning before the macro and timing masters dominate. Older games need excitement to even stand out just a bit.
I'd say a buff to Siege Tanks and Banshees. Nothing too major for either of them, but something to fill in for splash damage while letting people respond better to early harass. If Banshees were better at harass and maybe combat and Siege Tanks were more solid, there'd be no need for Widow Mines.
I never understood why only with Terran when they have broken shit that clearly needs a nerf we ALWAYS have to balance it out with some sort of buff. but with the the other two they will just take shit out and be like "Yeah it was busted go fuck yourself figure it out" and its just nerf city all patch. Why is that?
If you think about it the medivac energy regeneration upgrade is a nerf on storm. Storm wont kill terran bio units but it can butter them up a bit for other army units, but now you can't even wear down the medivac heals. That forces needing disrupters, which are now worse. Take away drilling claws for widow mines and give it to tanks, making them unable to get abducted when sieged up. It's pretty niche but when a late game terran and zerg are just sitting back poking at each other it gets boring. With this we can see vipers more focused on hitting tanks with blinding cloud and protoss won't be impacted at all.
I'd really like to see the mothership get a cooldown shield battery ability. Have it do 50% of what a normal one can output but impact 3 targets at a time for say 10 seconds. This would help prevent that huge initial bio damage from terran from just wrecking everything and help offset the sustain from the medivac upgrade slightly. Colossus need a slight movement speed buff. Any time they get paired with stalkers you either don't use blink for micro retreat because you leave the colossus out to dry, or the colossus is exposed and gets destroyed by marauders or swarming zerg units. It would also provide a slightly better option for retreat if you're losing a battle vs watching them die to 7 vikings and being able to do nothing. The fragility of the colossus also forces disrupters which just got nerfed.
When I initially read these patch notes like a month ago I thought they were increasing the radius of puri nova (which admittedly would be pretty crazy in a different way), not the radius of the disruptor itself XD. Obviously I don't think disruptors need to be more powerful but Protoss in general certainly does. These patch notes are Terran wet dream ngl. Really drove it home with all of those disgusting Cyclone interactions XD
Hi Winter I realy enjoy your contant espacially your castings they are the only reason i am still a fan of sc 2 (i mainly played the campanes and co op) so it pains me to see sc 2( which i have always thought of as one of the best balanced and most skill intense pro games out there)getting such a terrible balance patch i am a league player which has always been a circus when it comes to balancing so seeing something like this in starcraft of all things is really bad hopefully the game will stay strong and maybe future patches will make things better.
Anyway keep up the good work.
Much love from Germany❤
IN short THE balance council is clown shoes. I miss DK
Protoss 40% win rate in PvT at high level is insane.
This reminds me of back in the day when cyclones were added to the game. They clearly want to make the unit work but it's just apparently hard to tune appropriately as they either nerf it and it gets used less (but not nonexistent) or can just get massed and 1a across the map.
The cyclone is just way to microable to buff like this with the ability to move and shoot on the ground.
The previous iteration where they tried to make it a more core fighting unit with a rapid fire basic attack vs ground, but with the lock-on only available vs air, suffered from not being microable enough and not scaling well enough due to its large collision size; they just did't get enough density to continue to be efficient as numbers increase beyond a certain point. However, they were incredibly oppressive in the early game.
The newly updated cyclones have essentially the same problem; they eventually get outscaled once the opponent manages to stabilize, but are oppressively powerful early and can very easily snowball an advantage.
It's funny, when you look at the patch history it keeps bouncing back and forth between a mobile missile turret or an oppressive mid-game generalist.
The issue is that most terran units are already so versatile and usable, the cyclone doesn't really have a role to fill. And the people who designed the game have little understanding of strategy and strategic roles, that's why most units seem to fit in weirdly. SC2 WoL at least somewhat understood the purpose of roles when they designed units. Immorals = anti-armor vanguard, colossus = anti-infantry siege, phoenix = harasser and anti-light air, etc etc.
The new units were just shoved in without thought and it shows. The only real thought was "this idea for a unit is cool".
lol the cyclone is an early game unit that only takes 2 to obliterate what is supposed to be the biggest unit in the game. That mothership nerf is completely counter to the original idea of the unit if you ask me. An I don't think you can really lump it together w/ other casters since you can only ever have 1 and can't mass it like infestors or ravens or something.
just watching it get melted like that from 2 cyclones was a joke. Even just the 1 attacking a bit later in the video made my eyes bulge at how squishier it is now.
There we go. The opinionated part is fire. Here's hoping Frost Giant delivers.
Hey Winter I just wanted to give you a shout out and thanks for all the great content. I have been watching the Starcraft II professional scene pretty regularly for the past couple of years now. I have watched all the top casters and you're my #1 and PIG is #2. If you don't know, 99% of the time, you are first to up load new content of the latest Pro-SCII games. Some of the other casters are days behind you. Keep up to good work. I hope to see you casting IEM Katowice in 2023!
Increase warp prism cargo capacity by 3 or some other weird amount, make stasis wards a detector, and make stalkers deal bonus to mechanical
Good point actually...terran is the only mechanical in tvz and most in tvp so bonus to mechanical could probably be thrown around quite a lot.
But I would give protos a research "shield hardening" that makes shields more resistent to banelings...effect is exactly the same, but terran does not benefit and protos gets a ground army buff......
I think ideally in this patch we would have seen no Cyclone change, no change on the Baneling upgrade, but keep the damage upgrade nerf. From Protoss they really shouldn’t have messed with the Mothership, making it weaker doesn’t seem like a good way to address it when it was already very weak. There should have been more buffs to compensate for the Disruptor change as well. Wether that’s making Colossi or High Templar better or even just transferring more power into core units such as Zealots and Stalkers in some way. It would be nice to see the Archon become better against Terran in some way as well since ghost literally renders it useless, because archons could be a great way to deal with bio balls if the archon was actually viable. Overall if these things were to happen alongside the rest of the new patch it would actually be really fun and exciting.
It’s got to be because Terran by far is the most popular race right? Like I just don’t see how a team of “experts” looked at all three races and went “yeah well Terran is the one who needs to see the big changes and have the broken shit and the other two need mostly nerfs” unless it was purely to get back old player or not loose the ones who still play. Like I’m sorry there’s just no way they looked at where the cyclone is and went “yeah it’s good”. I legit think the game at this point would be better if that council was dissolved and the changes reverted, I even like the people on it just this is abusrd and proves that just because someone is a professional at playing the game doesn't mean they are processionals at balancing it.
I love watching good games for the fans, which means I hate widow mines. I think that Protoss should be getting a buff, not adding a Terran unit for the same cost as a stalker that can be reactored. As Winter mentioned, it does bonus versus mechanical, which has some impact on TvT. Oh, and it also hits a small number of Protoss units: the Probe, Stalker, Sentry, Immortal, Colossus, Warp Prism, Mothership, Oracle, Voidray, Tempest, Disruptor, and Carrier. I don't think those units will have any interaction in top level PvT games though...
certainly not, that short list of protoss units almost never see play in PvZs. Maaaybbee, you may have a probe or two some games but other than that? No.
Isnt one of the biggest issues in PvT that the units that can counter the blobs terrans end up are to easily countered?
1 - For Zerg, banes will always be a useful addition and some will get through to do their damage. Infestors can burrow and fungal will last its full duraction if it connects. Furthermore you got vipers to pull Vip Targets.
2 - For Terrans ghosts to snipe out casters. Hellbats, widow mines and siege tanks all do splash and help with blobs. Ravens also help a lot. (Plus you got fast drops for eco killing)
3- Now for protoss however, I feel your aoe options are all vulnerable, and especially vs terran they're -all- countered. High templars psi storm takes a while to do its damage unlike fungal. They're also countered by ghosts and easily sniped.
Disruptors are like ranged banes on a longer cooldown, they could do the damage, but can be dodged especially in high apm situations and have no utility otherwise.
Colossus gets countered by a few vikings easily, or can be rushed down with marauders due to being a massive target.
Your only other anti blob is the archon, which is both a big target as well as being a prime emp target too.
I think the problem isn't necessarily that a faction has multiple answers to something, I think its healthy and encourages different builds and creativity. The problem is that protoss cant toss it back the way terran dishes it out.
What if the high templar had a mana-burn like mindburst ability to counterplay casters itself (since toss has no snipes).
What if the tempests special ability was a ground target shot that left a slowing field on the ground, which would help with disruptor shots and buy you a little time. Or perhaps their normal attacks could slow down units around the impact by 20-25%' giving them a useful support role because toss already has far to many active abilities to manage.
Let alone sentries and oracles which are also micro intensive as heck... and id argue the sentry would be used more often if its shield was a passive aura rather than active ability, even if it gave a little less damage reduction.
Those suggestions arent probably the best as i just randomly thought about something watching the video and i havent played sc2 myself in a while due to a badly aging pc (used to play around plat/master), but it's at least something to have toss catch up a little.
Exacly my thoughts. I'd rather had no changes than this "balance patch"
love how even with "OP" Void Rays protoss couldnt win anything so they decided to just throw the whole race under the bus.
I immediately Subbed when I heard your discerning understanding of that apostrophe!
Biggest problem is that these changes weren't explained. No notes to talk about why this was the right direction.
Plus some minor nerf to the widow mine would have helped everyone in the early game. Allowing Protoss to get to mid-game sooner.
This balance change really cements my hope that one of the new RTS's takes over the scene.
I like watching your channel, I am getting board of StarCraft (which is saying something as I have been watching it since Day9 and Huskey where the go to's to watch)
The people working on those RTS games are also on the sc balance team. They’re hoping you move on too. Clear conflict of interest.
@@ablade2382 Which ones? There are a lot of RTS games in dev right now, they can't all have employees who are currently on the SC2 balance team.
@@ablade2382 How many years have those balance teams been planning this sneaky stealing of a fan base? Cause Starcraft's problems aren't exactly new.
NOTHING about Starcraft is particularly new.
Well tvz will be more interesting. I think it was bunny opened up 2 rax reaper into 2 hellion 4 cyclone and then added marines for a very different type of 2base push on Z. Very nice setup. But tvp is still going to be very odd. Having played a bit of the new patch now though. I think the biggest P change was almost 30 seconds off the mothership build time. Now it matches up with carriers. But the lower cost and cooldowns instead of waiting to build energy are very nice. It really opened up the recall mobility and lessened the cost of getting abducted.
It really felt like protoss has been struggling and seeing them take a nerf in having to account for cyclones and to disruptors is disturbing. I was hoping for something like a buff to Storm damage, or reduced energy requirements.
It feels like protoss has difficulty sieging vs all races and even has a hard time in straight up fights. I feel they need some big hammer abilities that can swing a battle like SC1 Reavers or Storms. It felt like disruptors was the protoss mid/lategame life line and they got a pretty heavy nerf in the supply change.
They need to revert the gateway warp in change and make the gateway units stronger as compensation. They can move the warp in feature to the robotics facility.
@@Nova_Jan strnger gateway units is good. Do not revert warp in, warp in is the cause of alot of protoss's issues.
@@wmzer0mw the reason why they are so weak now is because they can be warped in. You can't have both, it'll be too strong.
@@Nova_Jan We might be talking about two seperate changes, but saying the same thing. I want them to nerf warp in to the ground, and buff gateway units to make them more sturdy.
Heyy love the button up and tie.. it’d be awesome if you has a StarCraft tie clasp
Yea-and full disclosure I say this as a sc2 spectator-it seems like they spent so much time thinking about if they could make the cyclone changes work they forgot about whether they should make it work.
Additionally, I think it’s asinine to remove the baneling health buff, but maybe that’s only because I see them at the highest level.
Random viewer: "Uh... you said sentry twice"
Don Winterloni: "Well, I like it."
I'm always excited when I see you cast ZvZ, ZvP, PvP, or TvT. I haven't enjoyed seeing TvZ or TvP for this entire patch, because it always seems like the game is decided on "Can the Terran player Micro and Macro at the same time? If so, they win." It feels like Terran always has the tools to make a comeback even after losing a double drop and being 30 supply behind because they have 2 tanks on the high ground defending their base.
Sure, Terran Micro and Macro is tough as all get out and I'll never be able to pull it off compared to me a-moving Zealot Archon across the map in Silver, but from a spectator perspective, it's just demoralizing to be going "alright, the only way the Terran loses is if he doesn't split against banelings/disruptors" and always cheering for those Banelings and Disruptors, and it feeling so rare they actually win a series.
The only time I like seeing mass marines is when they're up against other marines, because I love the positioning wars Terrans get into trying to maneuver their air power and tanks against each other, as well as trying to catch the enemy while moving. And that level of chess boxing isn't a thing in TvZ or TvP. It's just 'can I execute perfectly'.
I also want to see protoss win simply because there's so few protoss games, and because they feel like they're destined to lose. I've played maybe 10 games of ladder since I got SC1 on launch day in the 90s, I don't care if void rays feel too strong in silver. I cannot imagine how demoralizing it must be to be a professional protoss player for the past several years, though one could argue that if it's your career and you have two other options, you should pick a better one - I can only imagine the level of dedication needed to be a sc2 professional means you have to at least like the race you're playing.
Yeah, i think even if the winrates were perfect 50/50 splits, the fact that protoss and zerg need to micro well or lose, and can only win when the terran messes up would feel unfair. Every other interaction has at least some counterplay.
Viper abducts units-> react quickly, feedback outranges them-> use ultras to push the templar back-> kill ultras with immortals->....(half remembered example, not strategic advice lol) Wow, would you look at that, an interesting game.
Terran dodges your splash-> wait until he doesnt.
@@Etropalker Zerg is the best race if played optimally and only Serral can play them optimally. Normally its a very bad idea to balance a game around top pro play( see league of legends) but at THIS stage of the games life I tend to agree with Winter although you have to be REAL careful doing so and the balance team has too many cooks spoiling the broth methinks.
and yet that marine vs marine is exactly what the players don't like to play and why TvT is almost never bio vs bio now in pro.
@@OSYofRR Zerg is not the best race if played optimally, that still goes to Terran. Serral is just good at making Terran's forget how their race is supposed to be played and make stupid mistakes in strategy and then crush them with good micro and macro.
Lots of neat changes! As a Zerg player one that stood out to me is Hellbats no longer one shotting Zerglings love to see it
Thank you for acknowledging the Protoss plight lol.
It's brutal to watch the best Protoss lose to basic compositions and not have many reliable tools to stay in the game.
On top of Protoss units not really working well together (think they were thought up individually and not how they'd actually function in a mixed army), they're extremely inefficient both DPS wise and in a war of attrition.
Off the top of my head Zealots, Colossus, Immortals, Void Rays, DTs have good DPS but are easily countered and seem to not mix well.
We do see the best players try things with these units like mixing Voids into other comps and blinking DTs in big fights but so far no bueno.
Protoss has the best splash damage but you see at the pro level they routinely try to have at least 2 types. Which is not only expensive but takes a lot of time and tech to get to, and apparently still manageable for the best Terrans to stim around.
I think a redesign of the Adept to be a higher DPS front-rank backline unit could help Protoss from crumbling in a bad engagement, as they might actually "trade" instead of losing 1000 minerals of zealots to kill a few marines in all the awkward poking and prodding that happens prior to the big clash.
Speaking of Zealots, give them back the charge damage. It's something at least.
Making the Colossus not targetable by anti-air is worth testing at least.
Last thing that can be implemented for all units, but would help Protoss the most is updating targeting so only so many units will target 1 unit based on targets HP vs how many attacks it wilk take the attacking unit to kill. Cause even if 5 Tempest still attack 1 marine but the other 10 attack 2 more Marines, that's 3 dead Marines instead of only 1 per volley.
It's stressful watching 20 Stalkers/Tempest overkill a 50 mineral unit by 1000% over and over, often trading horribly despite their "longer" range.
When I was a kid playing Brood War the Carrier was my favorite unit but now I just wish it was anything else. Depending on the patch it's weak in a different way and I dont think it's pulled it's weight for a long time.
Without removing it or making any radical changes, I would just change the split damage of each Interceptor to being one attack, to keep the damage competitive by making it more effective against heavier armor, also helping with it being the "support" unit balance patches and some players pretend it is by being slightly stronger prior to upgrades. Hard to upgrade and replace your ground army while also trying to mix in some air to your comp when it's already behind an upgrade or two.
In what universe do the Balance Council live in? I want to live there, since Terrans are clearly playing on Easy mode.
Marines and mines are "one size fits all" units. Wanna cheese - marines and mines. Wanna all in - marines and mines. Drops - marines and mines. Lategame - marines and mines.
They BUFFED mines and didn't touch marines while directly nerfing marine counters for zerg and toss. WTF
Widow mines have effectively ruined the game completely. Just played a bronze level terran who could compete 2 base vs 8 and dragged a game out like that... Just mine every focking thing and sit back and do fock all. Shift click into the mineral lines then do nothing else. Need overseers, that also dies to mines, or sack drones for spores and spines. Can't attack into him because pf + mine... So just wait for him to mine out and then come against you with mmmm and, in his case, mass bc. Managed to win... Only took about 350 apm to his 60 (with bane mines here and there because he was, OBVIOUSLY, too shit to scan). The terran race is now Luigi; winning by doing ABSOLUTELY FOCKING NOTHING.
2:20 "And the ask for community feedback is just like feedback in the game... impotent."
Oof. More importantly, true.
Ed: and my honest unqualified opinion is that you are 100% correct. Great job bringing the statistics and anecdotes both.
Ok, so your video is entertaining enough, that I watched a 50 minutes ballance change video about a game I have never played in multiplayer - which is not very often.
So, good job!
I'm not one to comment on things often, but this patch is so upsetting I feel the need to. As someone who's been a Zerg (Translation: Dark) fanboy for a while, I think everyone kinda knows at this point that Protoss is the underdog in basically any top 8 match. The avoidance of nerfing widowmines alongside banelings and disruptors, the lack of any real addition of stable versatility to the Protoss army, Cyclones, it just kinda feels like this entire patch went horribly, horribly wrong. I especially feel bad for MaxPax though, that kid has way more talent than I think his race lets him show, and I really think he'd be ranked a lot higher if Protoss had actually gotten buffed, rather than debatably buffing Terran and nerfing Zerg.
If there's one silver lining to the entire patch though, I think the ZvP matchup (specifically Dark vs herO) is gonna be a lot more interesting now that Zerg can't just roll banelings into the third and magically make up a deficit, which I think is gonna make for a lot better games in the matchup moving forward. I hope the changes don't get you down too much Winter, keep focusing on the good games for the fans! 💜
Yeah it's kinda bonkers. I play terran because it's the coolest and most fun race for me but when I watch casts I always root for the protoss because it's just so rare to see them actually win. I honestly think that are the protoss pros should change race in the next tournaments as a sign of protest of something.
And I hate widow mines too
Agreed on everything but the importance of lategame bane nerf. As a Z player, I don't see how having to roll in 8 banes instead of 4 to blow up the whole mineral line is a big nerf. Most players roll in with 10-20 banes and still have some left off afterwards. So sadly I don't think this will help P very much at all. I do see how marines are going to be absolutely fucking bonkers now, all Z sources of splash have been nerfed (banes, festors and lurkers).
P needs a lot of love on pro-level, and I can't understand how any of this helps them at all. I think buffing the core units for direct confrontation is the main goal - the core P army should be able to face off a similar supply of T and have good odds of winning. If this makes prism warp-ins and backstabs too strong - find a way to address that through making specifically backstabs weaker, not the whole army.
It feels like the council understands balance as "making T have a 60% win rate in all matchups, not just some of them".
As a fellow Zerg player it makes me frustrated because the "balance" council is basically telling me "It isn't fair that you can wipe a mineral line with fully lair tech upgraded banes, WE HAVE SPOKEN" and then Widow mines get a fucking buff the next patch. That is why the bane nerf pisses me off.@@kathorsees
Cyclone:
Terrans are so used to Tesagi Marines they need the same as a Mech unit. They can't handle having a different playstyle with Mech.
Widow mines and Liberators being shift clicked into mineral-lines, which takes no effort by the attacker but requires massive and perfect reactions by the defender to not lose the game outright is just nuts and not fun to watch.
You can easily defend vs banelings or zealot run-by and their cost/reward is much lower aswell.
I agree with Winter its a terrible patch and it shows why a private balance council sucks
Yea literally for both banes and zealots, more noob friendly option is to just build a wall of structures. Which race has the easiest to build but most effective static defense? Terran. They also can wall off with structures after the fact as they can float buildings.
Widow mines have effectively ruined the game completely. Just played a bronze level terran who could compete 2 base vs 8 and dragged a game out like that... Just mine every focking thing and sit back and do fock all. Shift click into the mineral lines then do nothing else. Need overseers, that also dies to mines, or sack drones for spores and spines. Can't attack into him because pf + mine... So just wait for him to mine out and then come against you with mmmm and, in his case, mass bc. Managed to win... Only took about 350 apm to his 60. The terran race is now Luigi; winning by doing ABSOLUTELY FOCKING NOTHING.
@@SicketMog Yea, I always had the impression that lower level Terrans lose more than they should simply because they don't want to play certain ways. Terran is really toxic if you just let people throw themselves at you and then harass a bit.
Im really loving the way you explained the patch this time
Love the setup and approach, and very informative! Good job!
This really feels like the straw that breaks the back for me. Outside of ghost nerf, I'm not sure if there's anything actually good in this patch.
I think, Vipers destroy Protoss; they have the most expensive units and Viper allows to onehit those without starting a fight.
You started it!
Don’t the Protoss have that same power with disrupters?
@@ekothesilent9456how are these units comparable?
@@KrimsonStorm they are both spell casters designed to provide pressure, gain positioning and pick off key, or unattended units. They both lack a primary attack, the comparisons are aplenty
well, you are wrong then. TvP is a problem not PvZ.
I have a pretty big feeling this patch isn't gonna change the status quo for Protoss much. If anything, would make the argument it would skew the win rate percentages slightly lower than the majority are already sitting at.
Rebalancing have a commercial side, it creates changes so the interest in playing and watching can (hopefully) continue. It can break up status quo and add more excitement in who will win (and any betting more uncertain with higher odds).
Winter in a nice spankin suit, hoping he gets to host some big league Starcraft tournaments.
Looking sharp 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
Even tho I saw the last parch video seeing winter in a suit made me watch this one as well
I’ve just started SC2 as of 1 month ago. I’m kinda surprised by the medivac buff.
It's super funny how the Cyclone wins all those matchups. Well done, Winter
No micro or anything, they just win against everything of equal cost. I'm reminded of Dawn of War, when the 'pros' were the ones balancing that game, which meant Eldar always got everything and was never outright nerfed even after mountains of complaints because they were the most popular with said pros.
@@AnonJuggerbot It doesn’t help that he used a map with a bug where the Cyclone has double the damage than the patch he’s going over.
We need a buff to zealots and sentry to be viable early. Zealots need to be usable without charge in Early game. Even adepts is usable. You have zerglings and marines who is the basic unit of the race being good to use from the gecko but zealots are not.
they are not even used as doors anymore as people prefer to use stalkers as they have more shields that can be regenerated and almost every unit in the early game can run circles around them.
What if they got % damage reflection as an upgrade? Maybe it builds up and then triggers upon their death but decays if their shields start to regen.
@@goldmage2357 they need to be fast enough to kill marines and slowlings. So you have a good unit that is strong than zergs (whats is exactly the purpose of both races) but can be outmaneuvered by marines because of the range,and you still have the treat to lose them if you just A move.. and charge can give them a impact bonus damage.
Simple buff who can allow protoss to defend earlier and still have a good gate unit after the upgrades.
keep doing Youre videos and sharing Your Thoughts I really appreciatte it and enjoy it!
been having success with the new cyclones sometimes mixed with hellions in 4 v 4
Does protoss have any great units? Any unit that you can recommend without major caveats? Any unit thats always atleast decent? Zerg and Terran have units like lings and queens, marines and ghosts that are basically never an incorrect pick(ignoring mirror matches, not important for balance), and can work quite well on their own, and get even better with support. Even some "specialised" units like vikings and corruptors can still be useful if they were overbuilt. Protoss needs 4 different units working in perfect unison, and if one of them is lost the entire army dies. Stalkers can fight on their own though. If they have a lot of space to retreat. And perfect blink-micro. Without either I dont think there is anything they dont die to. Terrans on the other hand get marines. On their own they deliver high damage, but are weak to splash. Add some medivacs and marauders and thats mitigated, add good micro and its gone. Zerg and Terran have good units, that can become amazing if they are combined and microed correctly. Protoss gets bad units that require an intricate ballet to be usable, and become good if your opponent doesnt know you have them. But hey, they have like, 15 fighting units, only half of which are at the far end of the tech tree, how could they possibly be predictable?
also is that a unit that can specialise in fighting retreats, can be microed as a group to do so, beats the shit out of a stalker 1v1, and costs say... as much as a stalker? Just checking.
(no, stalkers were not my favourite unit when I learned of sc2s existence, I didnt put most of their name into mine and only left out 2 letters because i was thankfully aware it has some other meanings in the english language and I am not mad about them sucking 80% of the time, why would you even accuse me of that?)
Frostgiant and Starlance stonks📈
Huh? All the protoss units are "good" - that's the problem, you said as much yourself. Would you rather be able to afford a shiny golden sports car.... or be able to replace your existing car whenever it got beat up?
Looking good bro.
*edit 1 wtf.... cyclone broken af. 2 kill a mothership in like 10 seconds? what?
*edit 2 hell yea finally a nerf to snipe. Snipe is op af as is against zerg.
*edit 3 REDACTED
*edit 4 i think the reduced size of the dropping units is a good thing. They can block out units near.
*edit 5 ok the raven moving of interference matrix is a good thing for protoss. When I play toss its so hard if you don't have splash (vs t) now add getting your splash disabled. Insta loose.
*edit 6. Dang. Why did they remove hell chads? what? isn't that the point of them. They are a late game mineral sink when you need them. This one will need to be tested and see the result.
Will critique more later. Got to go. Thanks for always giving us the updates. Sometimes I can't make sense of the updates with just words. So the unit tester is a good idea.
They didn’t make the widow mine laser brighter. They didn’t end up changing it at all
@@zaxtonhong3958ah. I stopped watching when he was comparing it but before he finished talking about it. Ok
In a tie and all. Yes indeed, this is THE MOST PROFESSIONAL starcraft channel and that's why I'm a Patreon.
Streamer, How do we download the minimap so we can see the medivac?
I am massing Cyclones so hard on the ladder as soon as i get home...
Haha first thing I was planning after ready patch notes. And I am/was a zerg main. 😂
IMO Make ghost Snipe 100 (+70 vs Psionic)
Give High Templar +1 or +2 to their cast range.
Reduce the cyclone's damage per shot since it looks like it will melt in the PvT matchup. Perhaps just remove the + damage to mechanical.
Cyclone is a siege unit now. Zealots? Zerlings? I don't think so, if you get the upgrade at Factory
Cyclone is the ranged baneling now.
Looking very dapper my friend