We Have A BIG Problem! The RV Hit The Truck! Fulltime RV Living!
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- Our 2020 Grand Design Momentum 397-TH was having bed rail clearance issues with our 2020 Ford F350. After a few close calls of the RV crushing the bed rails, we finally did some damage to the bottom of the fifth wheel on the RV when they touched each other. We didn't want to cause more damage to our rig or truck, so after researching different pin boxes, we finally decided on a solution. Watch as we remove the pin box, which is a Lippert Rota-Flex, and upgrade it to the Gen-Y Executive. We complete the 1000-mile break-in that Gen-Y says you should give the hitch and give you our opinion on whether it helped fix our problem or not.
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I went with the Goosebox, and could not be happier. I never want another fifth wheel hitch in the bed of my truck again. Have been using it for almost 6 years. I have the smoothest and quietest ride, and have had no problems with the air bags or the shock absorbers. It does take a little more time to hook up. I use a 5" adapter that puts the ball back away from the truck cab. The 5" also gives more room between the trailer and the tailgate. Ps. Airbags have been used by trucks for 40 years. I have about 8" bed rail clearance. Love the clear pickup bed. After having 5th. wheels for 40 years, this is the best investment we have ever made. Our Arctic Fox came with a Morride, and we sold it and the dealer put the Goosebox on. Good luck and keep on traveling.. Dave-R
I strongly considered the goosebox and the Gen-Y gooseneck hitch! At the end of the day it came down to two things. The airbag and shocks on the goosebox are just one more thing I would need to inspect and check that could fail one day! The other is having to figure out offset ball I would need to move the ball placement around in the truck.
Since we already had a fully adjustable B&W fifth wheel hitch in the bed, the Gen-Y pinbox was the best solution for us!
Lol.. probably because the hitch was smarter then u
The correct way to torque a through bolt with a nut is to torque the nut, not the bolt. The bolt has extra friction from where it passes through the holes that will affect the torque reading negatively (actual torque will be less than indicated on the wrench)
The bolts are through bolt connection with no rotational force on the shank! So it is acceptable to have the TQ wrench on the bolt or the nut! (If you have to have a back up wrench to keep the bolt from turning then it doesn't matter which side the TQ wrench is on)!
@Paving New Paths torque wrench goes on the nut, everytime, never on the bolt. Cheers.
See above! It has been covered!
@@neilmac4730 I know this is a Gen Y install, but even my Reese Goosebox has the bolts going in from the outside just like in this video and the engineers at Reese also said to put torque wrench on the BOLT side and not on the nut. Big truck Big RV also confirmed this as well. He is doing it the correct way.
That's was the first thing I thought of when he went to torque the bolts I deal with on my job all the time. There are different applications for different things
Excellent video I have the same problem I've been driving truck for 34 years .... I have a monster 5th wheel like yours ...same type of setup I have a more ride hitch on the front of my trailer ...and a Anderson goose neck for the bed I still hit the bedrails and the tool boxes they're all wasted thousands of dollars have gotten down the drain... now I'll try your hitch the Gen. Y thank you very very much.... I gross out at over 31.000 thousand ..problem I have, I'm concerned on keeping the truck and trailer level and adjusting the airbags also... Please keep on trucking show us more videos... Be safe and have a great day
Thanks for watching! With the Gen Y we were able to gain good bed rail clearance as well as level our trailer. We no longer worry about hitting the bed rails, and the ride has been significantly improved!
I am getting a new Momentum 376ths when they get it ready and I am going with the Gen Y goose neck for the reason I like the setup and I still need to be able to Haul a slide in camper and pull a horse trailer when I am not pulling the fifth wheel. I wanted the easy way to do both and the more I watch videos like these I glad I made this choose.
The Gen-Y is a great choice. The gooseneck was an option, but since we already had the B&W fifth wheel hitch, going with the pin box model was the best choice for us.
I have had my GenY Torsion Flex Boss for about 2 years now and it's amazing. It allows the truck and RV to act independently when hitting bumps and other stuff that causes lots of strong force to come into play between the 2. When I tow a John deer trailer with it I barely feel it compared to traditional hitch setups. And it has a lifetime warranty on the torsion arms and its components. Just the hitch and setup weighs just over 100 lbs so it's definitely not light. It's really heavy duty stuff. Lots of people ask me where I got it and how much it was. I'll say it's definitely not cheap. And get to talking about where it's from. Huge suporoter of GenY. Amazing products and amazing customer service. If you can afford it and want an amazingly smooth comfortable ride then you have to try GenY out. They know what they're doing. Heck they make trailer hitches that are rated up to 32,000 lbs. Try em out you won't be disappointed.
We love ours! We initially went to them to help solve our bedrail clearance issues, not only did the Gen-Y pinbox fix our clearance problems but the torsion system is amazing!
Not the case with all Gen-y hitches, they have messed me up twice and I had to pay restocking fee return shipping fee and a custom design fee for which I did not see anything that was custom and still did not work. FYI I think they just charged the custom fee so they could add no returns on custom hitches nothing was custom on hitch. I give them exactly what tongue weight was and first one flex down so much hit bed second one does not flex at all and is as ruff as ride as the factory I replaced with, my wife says this gen-y hitch rides even more ruff than the factory I took off so not everybody has had the same experience with gen-y hitch. I am sure they make some good hitches but not in my case.
You don’t want to run nose-high either. Or nose-low. Your tires, axles, pin box, hitch, and truck height all need to be coordinated so that you have both good clearance and run level.
We left it slightly nose high during the 1000 mile break in period as there is some settling of the pin box during this time. We have since adjusted it to run level and we still maintain 8 inches of clearance. When I say slightly nose high, It was one inch higher in the front than in the back, this is not visible to the eye and could only be verified by measuring the camper roof to the ground in the front and the back! Over 44 Feet I would still call that pretty level.
@@PavingNewPaths That is definitely level enough just don't buy a new truck. They are at least 3 inches taller bedrails than your current measurement. Mine sits at 58 inches tall, which required me to put a lift kit on the fifth wheel to be within 1 inch of level.
@@nickstorbakken9402 In 2020 the Ford lowered the superduty 2 inches over the 2017-2019 models! That was another intersting piece of info i learned when trying to sort out the best way to fix our problem.
Thanks for your video. We have a 2019 Ford 450, a 2021 GD Momentum 399TH, an OEM Reece hitch. A Moryde/Lippert pinbox. Tonneau cover that has been thrashed and we replaced once. We raised the hitch and thought that would do it. Nope, thrashed again. We called Moryde, they said call Lippert.👉🏻 👈🏻 They guy at Moryde basically said Ford raised the sides of the beds, nobody else got the memo so the standard clearances are off. We had 5-6 inches of clearance and it still scrapes. The side scraping makes it nearly impossible to pull the bed cover closed. We're full time so we need the back of our truck for storage.
Glad you got yours resolved! We're still working it out.
Thanks for watching! Yes its true the bed sides are getting taller. There are alot of scenarios that could have fixed my problem as well as yours. Both the reese goosebox and the gen y gooseneck would work but it would require the 2 inch extended turnover ball from B&W. The stock mor-ryde does offer about 1.5 more inches than the stock lippert but for me that still would have not completely solved my problem. The Gen y pin box was the only one that would give me the clearance i needed. With out moving the fifth wheel hitch the pin box alone added 5 inches of bed rail clearance. So for us it went from 5 inches to 10 inches which was huge. i then dialed the fifth wheel hitch down until camper was level and we currently have 8 inches of bed rail clearance.
Another great video. Glad you found a solution to your problem. Just joined the RV community with the purchase of a 2021 Montana High Country. Looking forward to creating memories with our family. Grateful to have your channel as a resource for our new adventures. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! Rving is a great way to travel and see this country!
I have the Gen-Y gooseneck version for our New Horizons and have no clearance issues. I back in at home downhill and no rubbing . I’m at 23k fully loaded the way I travel. I also have a Roll N Lock bed cover.
Thanks for watching! Since we have installed the Gen-Y pin box we have not had any clearance issues. I only wish i would have know about Gen-Y sooner i might have gone the gooseneck version route if i didn't already have so much money invested in the B&W.
@@PavingNewPaths
I didn’t have a hitch and was looking at the Reese Goosebox but it didn’t have the weight capacity for our 5thwheel. It’s nice just having a gooseneck ball in the bed of my truck. Good luck and safe travels
Thx PNP for an informative video of a problem many 5vers suffer from. I'm currently on my 3rd 5ver and have had seversl hitch and pinbox combinations including a Anderson Ultimate GN with 5th Airborne Sidewinder combo on my KZ 38' TH while going to remote boon dock sites on FS fireroads with no clearance issues. I currently have a 1T D'max 8' bed dually and Fuzion 40' TH with 4/20k# Reese Goose Box with 2 ball hitches 1 4" forward standard height and 2nd 8" rear of axle 3" higher which gives me 10" clearance of bed rsil to trlr over hang with air bag full on Goose Box for off road clearance. YMMV PS in 3 yrs of usage no air bag leaks in Goosebox but I also never experienced any with the 5th Airborne Reese hitch as well in 4+ years of boon docking on FS roads in the Sierras. Happy Camping PNP.
Thanks for watching! This is an issue i see alot of people having but there is no right answer. This is just my solution for what solved my problems.
I have a momentum 399th and I installed an Anderson ultimate 5th wheel with the locks for the retailer and have had 0 issues. I think it's a great setup and I can remove it from the bed of my truck in less than 5 minutes as it only weighs about 65 lbs. Have a safe one, happy travels!
Thanks for watching! Yes the guys with the Anderson hitch tend to have a little more clearance with the stock pin boxes due to the adapters you have to install on the pin box its self. If I were to do it all over again I would consider all components prior to purchasing anything to ensure I would not have this problem from day one!
I bent my kingpin plate with the anderson. Went to gen y. In my option the anderson is great for trailers under 15k. I would keep an eye on it.
@@Titanlessmatt yeah you need the lockout bars on there cause the plate is designed to move. I haven't had any issues so far. And also, no matter what system you use at the end of the day its about inspecting our rigs and making sure we're keeping our families and other drivers on the road safe. We can't be lazy and just hook up and go, especially for us towing the biggins. Safe travels to all!!
I’ve been a rv tech for 7 years and refuse to install the Anderson’s. I’ve installed about 300-400 hitches in trucks from 1991-2021. Anderson’s fail on big units like this and it can kill you. Type in Anderson 5th wheel hitch on google images and over half of the pictures are of them failing.
Sounds like he’s on the exact right track with the gen y pin box.
We have a 2021 Grand Design 351m that had an original tongue of a Lippert Roto-plex pin box and BMW hitch. We had very little bed rail clearance just like you except 16K trailer weight. We switched to the MORryde Cushioned 5th wheel pin box and kept the BMW hitch. So far everything is working well. Great video.
Glad to hear you're new setup is working well for you!
Back your truck under your hitch use your hydraulic floor jack with a piece of plywood and or pieces of 2x4 to support the jack. Unbolt, let the hitch down, pull out, put the new hitch on jack with same bracing, back under hitch, jack hitch up and reattach. I’ve done it a few times all by myself with no problems.
We thought about doing it that way but due to the torsion system and the extra weight on the front of the pinbox we decided it was probably easier to just pick it up and stab it! Especially since we had plenty of family around to help do the job!
Seems to me having the emergency brake release pointed towards the ground is not the best place to have it mounted. I would have mounted it so that it points to the back of the truck.
The emergency brake release is pointed towards the truck! For reasons out of our control not everything makes the final cut of the video you see!
Once we ripped the beds off and put flatbeds on getting trailers into job sites was so much easier and less stressful.
Good idea if you don't need the bed of your truck!
I read somewhere that the bed sides of the newer trucks are taller than in the past, this could mean the setups of hitches are too low. I personally think 5" is tight for the clearance between the bed rail and the RV.
You are correct 2017 and newer trucks are 2 inches taller bed rails on all 3 brands! This combined with certain pinboxes can cause major issues!
Good choice with the Gen-Y. I installed the Gen-Y on my Solitude and then switched it to my 2022 Reflection. I hook it to a goose ball and I tell people the trailer gets the most benefit from the Gen-Y as it absorbs the vibration and the bounce. Good job with the video.
Thank you for watching! We feel the Gen-Y was the best solution for our issues!
I know this seems dumb but why not hook the hitch to the pickup take the bolts out and drive forward so you don't have to use your back in a bad position. Than do the opposite with the new one.
We thought about doing that but the fifth wheel hitch will not hold the new pin box level. So then your left with a floor jack trying to level the new pinbox and because its not the same height you would have to use the rv jacks to raise and lower the rv to get the bolt holes to line up! For us that was to many moving parts when two men can safely lift this in to place and have more control over getting thr boly holes lined up!
@@PavingNewPaths God bless you and your family and have a safe journey.
Thanks!
I really learned when I used to have my fifth wheel toy hauler that I really need like a lease 9 inches of clearance The problem happened to a few of my friends
We run 8 inches now since we installed the new pinbox! We hardly ever worry about hitting anymore! But there are still times is does come close!
It is all about bed clearance which can be obtained in multiple ways. Have you thought about if your adjusted your rotoflex down a notch. Just because they had 6 bolts doesn’t meant that is the reaquirment. As your raise the trailer you need to verify level and what level you good with being out of level. Trucks are taller which makes it tougher. Love my Goosebox.
The stock lippert rota flex only had 5 bolts per side and was on the lowest setting. Per lippert that is the required bolts to maintain a 20k rating for my frame and pinbox. In 2020 the superduty were lowered 2 inches compared to the 2017-2019 years. Because of this we were towing nose down prior to the install. The Gen-Y allowed us to get 8 inches of bed rail clearance and let us level the trailer!
The break away switch needs to point forward
NOT DOWN
Thanks for watching! Good catch, the reason we left it down was the break away cable was a little short. We have already replaced the break away cable with a longer one and adjusted the switch to face forward.
@@PavingNewPaths we have same B&W companion 30k rated. How do you like the gen Y?
So far it has been great. We were after bed rail clearance when we got it. The torsion suspension system has been a great added benefit. If you get one you need to go scale your truck and then your trailer, and know your pin weight. Thats how they decide what model you need.
We have the Reese M5 hitch and the LCI Flex Air + roto flex pin box. Ours was installed by our KZ dealer before we picked up the trailer. 2022 Durnago Gold and a 2022 F350 dully crew cab. I have 7 inches of clearance which makes the front of the trailer sit up 3 inches higher than the back. Not happy with that as it's 13' 6" originally and it's raised our clearance now to 13' 9". I may lower our hitch 2" as it's set to the highest holes. Bed rail clearance at this time is no issue. 41.5 foot trailer, GVWR of 16k
The Flex Air by lippert would have fixed out problems but I didn't want another component that required maintenance! Having the shock and the airbag means one day they will need to be replaced or could fail on me! This issue is most prevalent on the 20K and up drop frames! Yours being a 16K it has a different mounting point for the pin box and that mounting location is completely different than what happens when the frames go to the 20K models! If you drop it down to the lowest setting of 5 inches you are going to have clearance issues getting in and out of RV parks!
I'll tell YA when I was a RV mechanic was told to mind my own business and keep my mouth shut ,if I want a job,GODS TRUTH ,this issue has been around a looooog time im 72 started in rvs in 1972,love ya drive safe ,keep GLAMPING
I see this issue daily when we travel! It gets worse with the bigger/heavier campers! It comes down to fifthwheel hitch and pinbox combinations that make all the difference! For us we went with the Gen-Y pinbox because it was the only one that would give us more than we needed, then we could lower the fifthwheel hitch to dial in the ride height!
If your trailer is riding level just add lift blocks to ur trailer axles and raise your 5th wheel hitch in the bed of your truck to match.
That’s what I did . Now I have plenty of clearance. By just raising your pin box the back of your trailer will loose clearance when and possibly drag when going in and out of driveway.
We put alot of time and research into this issue! Our stock setup we lowered the rota-flex pinbox to the lowest setting and Fifth wheel hitch was on the highest setting, this gave us only 5 inches of bed rail clearance! The problem is only a big deal on the 20K drop frame trailers with a lippert Rota-Flex pin box from the factory! It also depends on what year truck you have, pre 2017 you would be fine after 2017 all brands raised the bed rails by 2 inches! We cannot raise the trailer as it would put our A/C units taller than 13'6"! Our truck is a 2020 and that year Ford lowered the Superduty suspension by 2 inches, so we were towing nose down and had room to give to level the trailer as the back end was the highest pioint! The Gen-Y pinbox gave us 10 inches when installed and we were able to level the trailer by lowering the fifth wheel hitch. We now have 8 inches of bedrail clearance and all three A/C units are the same height, before the install the since we were nose down the rear A/C was the highest point on the camper!
We have a 2500 HD Chevy Silverado factory wheels tires shirt bed. Purchased Sabre 5th wheel 40’ long had them install gen Y . Husbands been pulling equipment grader etc all his life with CDL’s . We just took our first camping trip and now have a damage bed because of clearance ! My Husband had a feeling and even mentioned the clearance looking short but they said at the place where we purchased it and bought the gen y when it was installed that it looked short 🤦♀️
You need at least 6 minimum and that would still hit on very steep driveways! We have 7.5 and it is fine! You need to make sure you don't raise it too much as you will be towing nose high and the rear will be lower and could drag the ground! With a short bed you need to be mindful of hitting your truck cab when making sharp turns!
Word of advice, torque should be applied with a torque wrench on the nut side not the head bolt side.
Thanks, this has been covered several times if you have a through bolted connection with no rotational friction then it doesn't matter what side the TQ wrench is on!
Thanks for actually giving some helpful information !! Much appreciated !!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!
I have a similar, but slightly different issue. We bought our setup truck and RV from the previous owner. He built out the F-250 to look really sweet, like an off-roading truck with big 37 inch tires, 2.5 inch lift in the front and AirLift 7500 air bags in the back. Problem is the RV isn't level, points up in the front. The metal gang box on the back of the hitch, where the 7-pin wire goes into the RV comes into contact with the bed rail if I turn too sharp. There are a lot of situations I should be able to back a Fifth Wheel in at 90 degrees, and I cannot, or I will tear up the bed rail.
Your level situation is hard to fix on a lifted truck! Most guys end up flipping the trailer axles from on top of the leaf springs to below to solve this issue but you have to be aware your total trailer height will change by about 3 inches! The back of your pinbox hitting the bed rails at tight turns will require you to figure out what pin box will work as you likely need a shorter one!
@@PavingNewPaths I had debated lifting the RV, it can handle the height. I can handle the height, Except for... the outdoor kitchen. Currently I'm the only one that can reach the outdoor sink to wash hands outside without a stool. So I'm not sure lifting the RV is a good idea. I may have to explore different pin box as you suggested.
Raise your fifthwheel. You should know you never go for minimums. I am comfortable wit 8 to 10 inches.
Fifth wheel was on the highest setting and the pin box was on the lowest setting to get 5 inches! We purchased the Gen-Y because it solved our clearance issues and allowed us to level the trailer!
Not sure where you heard 5 inch clearance was enough. 7-8 is much better but you know that now.
Yes 5 inches is no where close to enough! We now have 8 inches and no more issues.
Never heard 5-6 inches clearance. Anything I've read or heard always says 6 inches minimum. But to adjust accordingly to avoid clearance issues. Obviously 5 isn't working for you.
Thanks for watching! 5 inches is fine if you stay down south were everything is flat! We didn't know we had a problem until we got to Utah and the driveways became more challenging getting in and out of RV parks.
Torque wrench goes on the the nut , not the head of the bolt
When you have no rotational friction on the bolt it does not matter if the TQ wrench goes on the nut or the bolt! ( If you have to put a back up wrench on it to keep it from spinning it does not matter)
I’ve always been told to have gooseneck flatbeds and horse trailers 8”+ so I run about 7-8”on my camper and I never have to worry.
We have 8 inches now and no longer have to worry!
All these new trucks sit way to high,,not sure what the manufactures are thinking. I install hitches at work all the time and always caution my customers about bed rail clearance. It's not just RV'S, some stock trailers using a gooseneck style hitch also get into bed sides.
I personally have a 2004 Chevy 3500, Duramax 4 X 4 w/ dual rear wheels and a Western Hauler body. Yes it's pretty much a full time pull rig w/o a regular bed, but I have plenty of clearance !
Thanks for watching! Since about 2017 all manufacturers have been increasing the bed depth and its causing issues that I never thought i would have to deal with.
@@PavingNewPaths
And keep in mind, as you change hitch and pin box locations to gain clearance to the bed rails,,,you want to try and keep the trailer level so as not to overload one axle and thus the tires causing blowouts. Just FYI
@@daboo7725 We were actually a little nose down before the upgrade. Now we have the trailer sitting level and still have 8 inches of bed rail clearance!
@@PavingNewPaths
Good deal.
Be careful with very back corner of bed on steep approaches, otherwise sounds like ya got it dialed in.
Yup, that's the real problem. My '19 F450 looks like a monster truck it so high. Yeah, I suppose it "looks cool", but people buying big duallys are generally doing that to haul, and they are so high that there are problems like this. Even my GN dump trailer, I have to be careful and it rides nose high because of the ridiculous truck height. The dump trailer I could fix easily by adding some height to it at the frame, the RV, I can't do that because it's already at max legal height (13'6").
90% of welding trucks have 5th wheel behind the axle, not a single problem, pulling bigger trailers than yours, you’ll be fine
I tried it 2 inches forward, right over the axle and 2 inches behind, because I wanted to know! And for me any my trailer 2 inches behind was the best ride for both the trailer and truck!
Good video explaining the problem, and the solution.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting. Our old truck was a 11 Sierra and had a prior installed hitch with rails. Our new truck a 16 F350 had the puck mounts and I had kept the old trucks 5er hitch. Bought the Ford/Reese adapter that puck mounts and allows old style Hitches with rails and pins to be mounted. The hitch has 3 crossbolt adjustments kinda similar to the pinbox. Originally in the Sierra it was in the middle and was just shy of bed rail level. In the F350 it was sticking just above bed rail level. Not to mention I have a Roll n Lock in the F350. The puck adapter raised it quite a bit so I had to drop the hitch down to the lowest settings on the cross bolts. It fits just under the path of the RnL Cover and I have ample clearance right now bed sides.
I want to dump the old hitch and the adapter since together they are a monster to remove and install. In favor of a Resse/Ford direct pick style. But I fear this same clearance issue.
I do think my pinbox has one more 'drop' cross bolts setting I could do. But not sure.
For reference my Fuzion TH came with a MorRyde pinbox
If you truck is a 2016 model you are fine they didn't start making the bed rails taller on trucks until 2017 models! If it were me I would just get a B&W companion for your truck and be done with it! They are the best hitches out there, and will lock and unlock in almost any position or angle!
There's a height adjustment on the fifth wheel pinbox as well as the 5th wheel hitch.
We are aware of that! the stock pinbox was on the lowest setting and the fifthwas on the highest setting and we still only had 5 inches of clearance! We explained this in the video that is why we changed the pinbox to gain the needed clearance on our truck!
On the 25K B&W Companion I just purchased and installed there is no setting to go "behind the axle" on a Ford. The two options are 3 inches in front or 1 inch in front of the axle. I'm running 1 inch in front for the extra tailgate clearance when hitching up.
My truck came with no tow prep so when I was deciding on if I was going to get the puck system or a B&W turn over ball system it came down to the adjustments in the fifth wheel hitch! With the puck system you are left with what you have only two adjustments! With the B&W turn over ball and the B&W companion that works with it you can actually go 4 inches fwd and 4 inches behind the axle for a total of 8 inches of adjustments! I made a video about each position and how it changed the weight on the truck! You can see it here ua-cam.com/video/I16SxEQJfAA/v-deo.htmlsi=o3wSUzzDw8a8eILi
Ok thanks for the explanation. I have the factory fifth wheel and gooseneck prep, so if I was interested in the system you have, does that work with my factory gooseneck ball?
@@BrewCityRider I believe it only works if you have the B&W turn over ball system installed on the frame under the bed, this would be in place of your factory gooseneck ball!
Glad you didn’t go with a gooseneck. Camper frames are not designed with extra supports that the gooseneck needs. They are lot lower hookup point causes Leverage on camper frame. You can see the extra support on a flat bed gooseneck trailer and you will see what in mean with 😉 I got lucky with mine I have adjustable height on truck hitch and camper pin box.
Ours was also adjustable the fifth wheel plate can be adjusted from 15 1/2 inches to 18 1/4! The stock pinbox was also lowered to the lowest setting and that only gave us 5 1/2 inches of clearance! The problem comes from the drop frame design and the mounting position of the pinbox! The lippert rota-flex does not have any drop from the mounting point so it is very tight! If our camper came with the morryde we might have never had an issue! The Gen-Y gave us 10 inches of clearance and we could make adjustments on the pinbox and the fifth wheel to dial in the ride height!
@@PavingNewPaths gotcha on yeah mine has little more height adjustment limit on trailer then you have. As well as the new setup you installed is still far closer than a gooseneck would be to trailer pin box mounting point.
@@kevink4914 We went with the pinbox over the gooseneck because it allowed us to be able to adjust both components giving us so many combinations to dial it in! The gooseneck conversion besides the extra stress didn't add much clearance without having to go to B&W to get balls with an offset rise in them!
Our Curt hitch and Grand Design 336 RLS was fairly close at first. We had to move the 5th wheel hitch head up to last bolt holes. We also have a 2020 F350 6.7 dually.
Our B&W was on the highest setting, and the stock pin box was on the lowest setting. The new Gen Y pin box combined with my B&W gives me 5 inches of adjustability to dial my clearance and ride height in.
The problem with the new trucks is the beds sides are getting taller. On my 2001 truck I had 8” clearance. On my 2019 I have 4.5”. Same trailer and hitch. It’s all in the name of cooling in the front having a taller grille and the bedside are made to match the height ( for looks).
Yes, this is precisely what caused our issue, which it was important we change out our hitch before causing major damage.
Your pin box needs to be lowered, that will raise your camper up away from the bed. 👍🏼 I had the same problem. The tech at the dealership said you should have at least 6 inches up to 7.
The pin box was dropped to the lowest setting and my hitch was raised to the highest setting! This only gave us 5 inches of bedrail clearance! The Gen-Y solved our issues as we now have 8 inches of clearance and were able to level the trailer.
@@PavingNewPaths after posting my comment I thought, with all of research and effort you’re putting in to this situation, you probably already lowered the pin box . Excellent content though, I believe it we’ll be helpful to others. 👍🏼
@@xaviermartinez6642 Thank you for understanding that there was more to this problem than just adjusting a position! It's a very limited number of campers built on 20K lippert drop frames that come from the factory with a Lippert Rota Flex Pin box. When used with a 2017 or new truck from any brand you will likely have issues. Most of the manufacturers addressed this issue by switching to a morryde pinbox which gives about 2 more inches of clearance! Overall it is a very specific combination that but I meet them every day in campgrounds and am able to share my solution with them!
I did see one other solution. The individual cut the top four inches of his truck bed off. A bit radical, but effective.
Haha! That would make it work!
Glad you did this video! I’m getting ready to purchase a Grand Design and momentum and now I know what setup I want. Thank you!
Thanks for watching! It only seems to be an issue with the 20K drop frame models (376, 397, and the 399). On the G Class and M class models I believe the frame is different and the mounting position of the pin box is lower. The new momentums are now coming with the MORryde pin box, and it does offer more clearance than the Lippert but could still hit in the right circumstances!
Have the same issue with our 2020 Solitude 377mbs. The previous owner scrubbed the underside of the trailer pretty hard.
Great video, I'll be looking into that hitch for sure. Thanks for the content.
You're very welcome!
At my dealership we aim for 6 inches of space between the bed rails and the unit, we also go through all options, and recommend the best set up per truck, we do not stream line anything. Ultimately it is up to the customer, but we do our due diligence so that this does not happen.
We had 5 1/2 inches and we had no problem down south where its relatively flat. It was not until we hit colorado we started having problems! We now have around 8 inches and no longer worry about hitting!
@@PavingNewPaths Im located in WI, and its also pretty flat here also lol. Bad thing is we can do our best on the service side of it all to get the customer want they need/want for their use. We do have alot that tend to go with the anderson style set up. We also deal alot with the turning point for those who have shortbeds. I'm glad to see you guys have solved your issue, this is why I surf youtube on these subjects time to time, helps us techs, help newer owners so they hopefully do not encounter these issues, or atleast educate at the very least so they are aware before the issue arises.
I have the same issue with my '19 F-450 hauling my Jayco Seismic 4113 toy hauler (45' long, 20k). I'm running the Mor/Ryde rubber pin box, and using a Reese M5 27k hitch. I have plenty of adjustment to be able to go up, but the biggest problem I have is that the overall height of the camper is already at 13'6" at the front AC, so raising the front end isn't an option. I was thinking about putting the front AC in the garage, and getting a low profile unit for the front to give me a couple more inches of clearance, but I also have concerns about the tail dragging if I go any higher on the nose.
I used to pull an older 31' Damon Escaper 5th wheel camper, which was definitely not designed to run behind a truck this high. The way I resolved the issue on that unit was to "flip" the axles, reinforce the suspension, and install the CRE3000 equalizers to give myself 7" of additional height at the trailer axles. That did the trick without having to run nose high. Again, not an option when I'm already at 13'6" on the Seismic... Big rig problems...
For us our truck is a 2020 and ford lowered them, so we were nose down. However with the lippert pin box and B&W I was at the max adjustment on both and still only had 5 inches. When I took my measurements a 1 inch increase in the front only dropped the rear 1/2 inch.
I'd put steel plates under your fifth wheel hitch to eliminate your issue's..plating it will compensate your height issue
That might have been an option if i only needed an inch or less. However we needed 3 to 4 inches to eliminate our issues.
Its simple put a hyd lift pin hitch so you can lift to get clearance for your turns
Installing the Gen-Y hitch solved our clearance issues!
I have the Gen Y gooseneck on my DRV and I have a 2020 Ford 450 I also went with a taller ball in the bed of the truck to increase my clearance to 8". Truck and trailer are level have only towed about 200 miles with it. So far very happy main reason I went with this the mor ride pinbox I had on my old fifth wheel. In a tight level turn the backside of the pin box would get into the bed rails of the truck..
Thanks for watching! I never had that problem with the lippert rota-flex. Mine was always the top of the bed rails or the tailgate was smashing into the bottom of the camper. We didn't know that was a problem until we headed out west, from Florida to Arizona we were fine, once we headed north into Utah and beyond the RV park entraces got more challenging with angles and slopes.
What size taller and make ball are you using on your F450 with the Gen Y?
B and W makes a ball with different rise and offsets to help with adjustments!
The whole campground showed up, got to love that.
In this case we knew them all it was all friends and family that we were camping with! There was however a few guys that we didn't know that came over and wanted to help!
You’re a VERY patient man reading through the comments. 🤣 My 5th rides high in the front causing tire wear and other problems. Looking for solutions myself. No manufacture can guarantee they can fix the problem with their hitch/pinbox solution. this is a problem for the industry right now. Good post
I have the flex air pin box with the air bag and I never had an issue with it. I can deflate the airbag if I have clearance isues on the height under wires and I can put air back in to adjust the clearance for my bed. Also if I load the rv too much I can put more air to make it ride smooth.
The flex air pin box was my choice until I found the Gen-Y pin box. I didn't want something else I would have to remember to check or maintain. Also I was afraid if the airbag was to fail I would not be able to move with out repairing!
2006 Kodiak c4500 RV hauler
No big higher else to worry about
I would love something like that!
The fundamental problem here lies with the truck manufacturers. I own a 2019 F450 and tow a Grand Design 351M with it using a Reese goosebox. There's just no way to find more clearance because the truck is too high. There's no way to lower the truck, so all you can do is raise the pin (which I have, but puts me nose high) or raise the trailer (which I have as well, but the Momentum is already almost at max legal height, any more and you'll be over 13'6".). The answer is to lower the trucks back down or, possibly, lower the sides on the bed. There is absolutely no towing purpose to be up in the air so high, it's an "all show, no go" feature that makes a F450 "look cool" while harming it's biggest purpose in life, towing a GN or 5'er. Yes, you can "fix" it somewhat through pin boxes and adjustments; but the real fix is knocking a few in off the ride height on the truck.
Yes, the main problem is the bedrails are getting too high. The 2020 and up Superduty's are now lower than previous models. Not only did I not have enough clearance, I was also nose down when towing. The Gen-Y pin box allowed me to gain my clearance and level my trailer. I was also worried about trying to gain clearance and causing my rig to be nose high, that is why I choose the pin box version over the gooseneck version. This way I can make adjustments to my pin box as well as the B&W fifth wheel hitch to dial in the ride height and clearance.
@@PavingNewPaths Truck too high and bed rails too high, both working against us. At least you were nose low, that means you had wiggle room. I'm nose high and have nothing left, can't lower the truck, can't raise the trailer, and can't adjust the pin box because I'm already at "too close" clearance. :(
Absolutely...I just traded my 2018 f350 4x4 for a 2022 f450....the bed height is about 2 inches lower on the 450 which has made a huge difference with accessibility in the bed (I'm 6'3") as compared to the 2018
Some people are adding lower or shorter spring plates in the rear to lower the truck. I have a 2019 F350 and it sits way to high. Would be cool if they offered factory bed rails that folded down or were lower.
@@darren6790 Do you have any links? I've looked high and low for a way to lower my f450. Everyone I talk to says it's not possible without major surgery
Great video. But mounting behind the rear axle will affect safety due to improper weight distribution.
Thank you! I also did a video about where the fifth wheel plate is according to the rear axle and it doesn't matter each inch is only 25lbs transfered between axles! You can check it out here! ua-cam.com/video/I16SxEQJfAA/v-deo.html
Just a suggestion a trailer saver hitch might help with the roughness and maybe some rear air bags on the truck could help smooth things out. Just an idea
We have airbags on the truck! The camper did not ride rough with the stock pinbox! A hitch change would not fix this as all brands have roughly the same adjustable heights 15 1/2 to 18 1/2 Inches off the bed floor! We needed bed rail clearance and it was only solved by changing the pinbox! We went with the Gen-Y because it offered the biggest gain and most adjustments! The torsion system was just a bonus!
Hi, man I so wish I had your mind. Your thought process is amazing. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. 👋🙂
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video!
Very similar issues! 19 F350 and 2011 Montana with the Moryde. Had to drop the pinbox a hole, and raise the 5th wheel higher. Still gotta watch the inside if I turn too tight! My understanding is that newer ford's have higher and thicker bed rails. 🤷♂️
Yes all trucks now have taller bed rails, the Fords are 1.5 inches taller. If i had the morryde I probably could have managed. You should look into the Gen-Y pin box we never worry about hitting and the suspension system is amazing.
@@PavingNewPaths definitely gonna look into it, but im canadian and exchange rates are horrible! We also just got a seasonal site, so might not need to replace it. We will see! Looks beefy for sure!
I like the maintenance and repair videos. Bring that Rota-Flex back to Texas and we’ll take it.
It's already back in Texas! I'm sure we can work something out!
Gen Y is a good idea dude good thinking
I would have just changed out the 5th wheel hitch. This is why I love my Demco hitch. It’s amazing and it slides with ease. My camper is also 20k too.
The fifth wheel hitch is not the issue! The size of the bed rails are! We don't need a slider as we are not hitting the cab we are hitting the top of the bedrails! This only is a problem with 20k trailers built on a drop frame that come from the factory with a lippert rota-flex pinbox when used with a 2017 or newer truck from any brand! There are many 20k trailers out there not built on a drop frame and that changes everything as far as clearances go the mounting point of the pinbox is different and you would have plenty of clearance! If ours came with the morryde pinbox we would never had to change either as it is 2 inches taller!
@@PavingNewPaths
First off there is not need to get wound up. I understand what you are saying and agree with you 100% but there is something you are clearly missing here. The reason I said this hitch specifically is because it eliminates your issues all together and while getting the added Benefits of the sliding hitch. I wish I could show you a pic of the height of the plate in my truck because this was a major concern for me as I have a short bed Mega cab truck. This was the answer for both the height and also it getting into the cab corners and I’ll tell you it works wonders. I’m glad you got yours worked out. Question how much was it to swap the pin box out? Thanks 🙏
Your Demco is the same height as my B&W they are adjustable from 15 1/2 inches to 18 1/4 inches! There is no height gained by changing the hitch! This is a very specific issue caused by a certain frame and pinbox combinations! If you don't have the issue be thankful, but this video was made for those who do! If your RV is 20k and you don't have clearance issues its because you likely don't have a drop frame model, and if it is a drop frame your's came with the morryde pinbox or a non cushioning standard pinbox! The reason we went with the Gen-Y over all other choices is because when installed in the same position as the stock pinbox it added 5 inches of extra clearance giving me options on ride height adjustments! All other choices only gave me 2 inches max! I was then able to dial the camper in to level while still having 8 inches of clearance! The pinbox cost me around $1300, but we sold the stock pinbox to help with cost so a little less than 1k to fix this!
These issues start back on the drawing board when they are built from the factory they are not worried about height in the pin box it's all about ride height the higher the pin box the more the rear axles get out of wack and change one thing then other issues pop up been in the RV industry for over 36 years and be careful of the welds in the frame work as you go higher
It does go back to they way they built them! They have since stopped offering this configuration and have changed the pinbox weldment on the newer frames!
I run GenY on my bumper pull and gooseneck horse trailers, great product
It is a very good product!
Just move your pin box to the lower holes on the mounting . I did that on my 19 f350 dually towing a 42 foot toy hauler. Never a problem again.
The stock pin box was lowered to to bottom holes and we still only had 5 inches of clearance!
Just a heads up when you torque a bolt and nut, if you can use the torque wrench on the nut side if you use the bolt head add 10%.
Thank you! Also if it a through bolted connection with no rotation friction then it does not matter which side the tq wrench is on!
Any kind of gooseneck hitch on a fifth wheel trailer is the worst idea ever will put stress cracks in your frame eventually it’s been proven time and time again take a look at a gooseneck trailer and see how much more support is in a gooseneck
Thanks for your input!
I had the Gen-Y Gooseneck hitch installed on my new Alliance Valor 40v13 before I ever picked it up.
I have a 2021 3500 Ram longbox Duelly with the Ram Air rear suspension and the truck and trailer are flat and rides like a dream 👍😉
Before Gen-Y we had minimal bed rail clearance, the trailer was towing nose down and the ride was horrible. We originally looked at Gen-Y to solve our bed rail clearance issues and to level the trailer. The ride however compared to a stock pinbox is a night and day difference!
What ball do you use? Standard or high rise?
@@mfaulguy I am using the B&W Gooseneck set. It comes with the safety chain anchors and the ball with the release handle.
Simple and cleaner to use than anything else on the market.
Flip the handle and lift out the ball. You don't have to touch the greasy ball to release it 👍
I have always heard that you must have the hitch over the axle or 1" in front of the axle. This is because when there is a bump in the road, and the pin is behind the axle, weight is taken off the front axle. Also when baking, the front of the axle setting is better to swing the trailer into the correct position. However I think that 1-3" will not make much of a difference.
Your CAT scale measurements show that there is only about 25 pounds (front axle weight) difference between 1" forward of the axle and directly over the axle, so I guess that is not a huge deal with your truck and trailer.
Yes! I have towed in all the positions to see how the ride changed! For us anything forward of the axle is rough over the axle is ok and 2 inches behind is the smoothest ride for the truck and the trailer! We did the other video testing how the weight changes because we were intersted in knowing how moving it actually affects the weight!
You mentioned a gooseneck conversion, glad you didn’t go that route. I am on my 4th 5th wheel and am no expert but was told by more than one that 5th wheel frames are not made to be pulled as a gooseneck! You change the geometry and stress points by pulling it lower. Makes sense to me!
That is true, it does change the geometry! However lippert has approved the reese goosebox for use on their frames! They have not yet approved the use of the Gen-Y gooseneck version!
You are so very correct on they are not designed for gooseneck. If you look at the design of a flat bed gooseneck you will see why. Totally different design then a camper hitch. Luckily I have the ability to adjust the height of fifth wheel hitch on the camper as well as truck hitch .
The b&m can be raised four more inches just unbolt it and raise it up with your trailer landing gear then bolt it up again.
The B&W only has 2 inches of adjustment and it was set to the highest setting! Our stock pin box was also installed on the lowest holes and we still only had 5 1/2 inches of bed rail clearance. The Gen-Y allowed us to achieve 10 inches of bed rail clearance when installed in the same position as the stock pin box. We then adjusted our B&W down to level the trailer!
The problem is that all the new trucks are too tall and no one has enough clearance anymore. 20 years ago this was not a problem.
There needs to be a minimum of 8 inches between the camper and bed rail or more but that is impossible with newer campers and trucks.
I have been around RVs all of my life and helped my Dad set them up in the past for our own and other peoples rigs.
It used to be that you could adjust the height of your camper to maintain clearance to your truck. When I was a kid years ago I helped my dad adjust the axles on our Holiday Ramble 5th wheel camper.
It was a monster and you needed a dually to tow it. We adjusted the pin box and the supports that sat on top of the axle leaf springs. We raised the camper 4 inches above the axles higher up and adjusted the pin box down and the angle to shift the weight to level out the rig to the truck.
We had 10 inches of space between the truck box rails and the bottom of the camper.
it allowed the camper to clear and roll going though dips and ditches as well as climbing up over and onto roads and highways and in and out of drives into stations and parking lots.
It seems manufacturers have forgotten the past or a new generation can't figure out simple issues.
If you had a reese hitch you could just raise it up a hole or two or just drop your pin down a couple of holes easy enough i would think
The B&W is also adjustable and was on the highest setting. The stock pin box was lowered to the lowest bolt holes available and we still only had 5 inches of clearance! The Gen y pin box installed in the same position gave me 10 inches of clearance. We then adjusted the B&W down to level the trailer and currently still have 8 inches of clearance.
Great info. Thats a massive camper
Thank you!
This make me glad I bought a flat bed
Had we not addressed the problem we were on our way to needing a flatbed!
@@PavingNewPaths it's a good option. I like being able to access my in bed hitch easily from outside the vehicle. And removable bedsides if I need to haul cargo. That looks like a nice setup you have there.
@@Mike_Atwell For us we need our bed, we use it as a trunk when not towing the camper on our adventures! The Gen-Y solved our problem, its to bad Grand Design doesn't address this issue when building them!
@@PavingNewPaths stake pockets on the flat bed make it easy to have a cargo bed when you need it
@@Mike_Atwell We have a bed cover and can lock everything so we need things to not come up missing!
Now you should think of a morryde system on your axles
Our trailer came with the lippert Equa-Flex equalizers from the factory which we felt were acceptable. We did upgrade the system with the Morryde wet bolts and heavy duty shakles, and we added the morryde cross braces!
I have a Curt A25 and the same truck and a rotoflex ive towed 60,000 miles never and issue
Thanks for watching! Be glad you've never had this problem, it just adds one more thing you have to watch out for when you are entering and exiting RV parks!
@@PavingNewPaths i think you missed my point i have a voltage 4185 47 ft before that a voltage 3305 i have a 2017 f350 dually in 60000 miles i have never come close to bouncing it and i have been it all sorts of situations on and off road - you have the wrong hitch.
Gen Y isn’t approved for use on Lippert trailer frames yet, any warranty issue might be denied. I honestly don’t think you will have any issues though. Tow on!!!
We decided we would rather not destroy our truck and camper by continuing to tow with the stock set up!
Suggestion I always refer to is “the thumb up rule” for in between the bed rail and fifth wheel. I also put a 4-6’ level inside the camper on the floor to determine actual true ride level. Best way to determine weight distribution is to run through a scale to determine what you actually have over each axle…. To little on the steer axle and you float steer. Camper dealers who actually take the time to correctly setup a hitch will prevent customers from having to diy their hitch parts to determine the right setup. Also make sure you match pin boxes before swapping, I went through 3 pin boxes on a buddies fifth wheel and his mega cab setup before Lippert confirmed his trailer was fitted from the factory with an extended pin box (7” longer between center on pin locations) vs the ones he was originally sold. After installing the right pin box he did not need a slider hitch in his mega cab being he need 4” of extra pin distance vs the 7”.
My Demco Recon 21k is adjustable and i leave it set with camper 8 inches over bed rails and never an issue.
My B&W is also adjustable, and with it on the highest setting and my stock lippert pin box on the lowest setting the most clearance I could achieve was 5.5 inches. This is only an issues with 20k drop frame models from Grand Design and 24k drop frames from DRV when paired with a 2017 or newer truck.
Thank for sharing I couldn't buy a 5th wheel cuase i have a 7 in lift on my truck . Wish i had seen this before buying my bumper pool🤷♂️
I think up to a 4 inch lift you might be ok with out having to address the camper being nose high! Most guys with lifted trucks end up flipping the trailer axles from top to bottom giving them about 3 more inches of height on the trailer! Could be a solution to your lifted truck problem! Lifted trucks I think are fine if you only pull the camper a few times a year! But if you pull it regularly I would definitely want a stock height truck, you could even put 35's on it and still get by!
If you go off road look at the goose necks. I like the companions never had a problem. I use the goose neck more than fifth wheel.
Since we installed the Gen-Y pinbox we have not had any more clearance issues and our ride has improved dramatically.
the Gen Y is from my state IN.
Thanks for watching! So far we love it!
What about your overhead clearance is it still under 13.6 if not you will be in for a rude awakening
We are actually lower now than before the install! Prior to the install we were very nose down when towing making the rear AC higher than 13'6". Not only have we increased our bed rail clearance, we also were able to level the trailer allowing all 3 A/C units to be below 13'6"!
Awesome explanation!
Thank you for sharing.
You're very welcome!
I love geny trailer hitches too
They're great! Much better than the stock option we had!
Good job, with one exception: nothing's maintenance free except the stink on 💩! 🤣
You are correct nothing is maintenance free! But with the Gen-Y there is no Airbag or shock absorber that you need to maintain and adjust.
@@PavingNewPaths I'm curios, why did you go with a 5th Wheel over a regular tow-behind travel trailer, or a motor home?
@@Dukemeistro Because we are living full time with two kids and a dog so we wanted the most room possible. Plus we needed alot of space for our adventure vehicle.
Went to a hauler flatbed for this reason
I considered this as an option!
Same thing happened to my old man we ended up putting a 3inch lift on the camper
There are many ways to solving this problem depending on what combinations of hitches, pin box and truck you have! I Choose to go with the Gen-Y pinbox because it allowed me the most clearance and settings to dial in my ride!
It's pretty obvious that's awful close. 5 inches would be nothing on uneven surfaces. I would increase that distance two or three inches at least. If I had to, I would raise the suspension on the trailer to keep it level.
I've seen airbag assisted hitches before. Wouldn't that be something that would help alleviate this problem as well? Could you raise the air pressure to increase the height just until you're back on level even surface?
Yes 5 inches is to close, we made this video to show our issues and how we solved our problem by installing the Gen-Y pinbox! We now have 8 inches of bed rail clearance and have not had anymore issues since the install!
WOW! 150 ft-lbs. Per bolt. That is the torque on my hitch head for my travel trailer.
Thats what the spec sheet calls for it is rated for 20k lbs.
Happen to us when we switched trucks from 16 f350 didn't happen, then we got 20 f350 on a curt q25 and yes same problem with our redwood. Rv should have came with trail air with airbag but the send it out with a rotaflex.
Thank you for sharing! It is a combination of the truck bed sides getting taller and the standard cheap pin boxes on these big campers! What did you do to fix your issues?
What you do is, you pull the fith wheel out the truck and put spacer bars between the bed and the fith wheel. I'd use about a 4 inch spacer bar and longer bolts.
We have a B&W Companion hitch that slides into the turnover ball socket in the bed! Adding spacers not only would not work it would be extremely unsafe when pulling a 20,000 camper! Our solution was to go with the Gen-Y pin box because not only does it solve our clearance issues with room for adjustment, but it is also designed to handle up to 30,000lbs with no additional components or items needed!
Might look into a Western Hauler set up or one like it. Never worry about bed rail clearance again AND plenty of storage compartments. Would love one for our new truck but can't afford it just yet.
That was our next step if we ever damaged the bed! The Gen-Y solved our issues and allowed us to keep the bed!
Wow money money money. Great advice and thanks again.
Thanks for watching! The cost of the Pin Box is cheap when compared to the damage we were going to cause to the truck bed or the bottom of the camper!
That didn't look like a difficult swap out at all. Nice job going through all the what's and why's for your choice.
It was a very easy swap, it was a lot easier eirh all the help I had from family members! This worked best for us because of all the available adjustment configurations you can achieve now for ride height and bed rail clearance! It had been almost a year now and we no longer worry about bed rail clearance issues!
Easy swap just don't underestimate the weight of the pinbox, any pinbox, but the more complex pinbox the more weight. Not to mention the sharp corners on the RV frame mounting flanges. Hurts to hit your head.....ask me how I know. 😂
A little grease in the king pin and fifth wheel will help your ride and handling.
Thanks for watching! I use a lube plate between the fifth wheel and pin box, and i keep my king pin coated in grease as well as the hitch's jaws.
Chassis maker Lippert says the goosebox is the only aftermarket approved pin box. Gen Y could possibly void frame warranty. Any worries? Grand Design approve the change? Like the video with the before and after real world numbers. Have the same problem with bed clearance and being able to tow level.
Thanks for watching! In todays world I'm not concerned with the warranty or needing approval from grand design. What I was concerned about it they keep delivering the bigger/heavy RV's with the same useless pinbox that allows almost no clearance when used with a 2017 and up truck. The way I look at it is this, will it cause frame damage by changing out the pin box, very unlikely. Will i destroy my truck if I don't change the pin box, 100% chance i will! You should look at Gen-Y at the same settings I gained 5 extra inches of clearance. We have dialed it back in to 8 inches of clearance and were able to level the rig at this height.