Telling Astarion he was perfect before the ritual shows just a glimpse of his former self. His facade falls and he’s confused and even hoping for validation. It’s tragic how quickly he replaces that vulnerability with hostility.
It's such a shame that he never actually believes that he can be enough. All that confidence yet he is a little lost boy deep inside (Cazador is right about this). People in real life have this mindset too quite often. They can be rich and powerful and it gives them ''confidence'' cause deep inside they feel that they are nothing without it. I know someone like this and unfortunately it's impossible to make that person see that they are more than money and power. They get pissed and aggressive cause it's their defense mechanism. Also call their past self ''weak and pathetic''. No matter how powerful and wealthy you are if you are an ass you cannot keep people with you. Even if you do it's because it's their duty and personal gain. No real feelings. Better to stay ''poor and weak'' and true to yourself than powerful and unhappy in the process. Money and power can only give so much. I think that even if Asti doesn't ascend and he confesses his love still deep inside he thinks that he is not enough and always gonna feel like this. It's our job to reassure and support him that he is enough.
Do you happen to know if that "missing Astarion content" Neil mentioned has ever been found? I've tried to find out if anyone's gotten it yet but haven't seen any updates, and that was almost a year ago now
GamesRadar+ asked the developers directly. There's a quest in Rosimorn Monastery that rewards a great mace called Lathander's Blood. If you're not careful or try to decorate the mace, you can activate a dreaded solar weapon. If you kill Astarion with this solar weapon and then revive him when you return to camp, he'll have a few words with you.
@@knodgo Ooooh okay, thank you!! I could have sworn Neil said it was like, 40 minutes worth of content, but that's probably just faulty memory. But I've seen the scene you mentioned on yt and couldn't figure out at what point I had the chance to kill him with a solar weapon - so you solved not one but two mysteries for me, haha. Thank you :)
@@muffinconsumer4431 idk I'd say it's used in many different contexts and erotica isn't necessarily the main one. But perhaps it just depends on what we interact with the most lol
If you tell him he's not as powerful as he thinks (option 2 1:10), he'll threaten to turn you by force. "I can take anything I want. I should have made you a spawn just to teach you that." The scariest part is the possibility of him trying to get you back later. Maybe in a decade. Or in a hundred years. When you start thinking he's moved on. When you get distracted enough by your own life to let down your guard. "You will regret leaving me. More than anything you live to regret."
ad its so so true to real life abuse too. Theyre so talented at letting things drop or letting you get settled and drop your guard only to swoop back in and wreck your life and all your progress. the "take anything I want" line legit makes me kinda sick because yeah, the worst ones say, believe and will do just that. Ascended is such an important story to show and the fact that so many people realize he wont stop... chilling and satisfying storytelling all in one
Ascended Astarion isn't a heartless monster ftr. He does care about and misses Tav if they break up. If you read his mind when he bites you it's revealed that he thinks he's treating Tav exactly the way they want to be treated. Doesn't make it a healthy relationship by any stretch mind you But... Tav also literally kills a God and defies several others. As well as potentially a devil, multiple necromancers, the chosen of Bhaal, the chosen of Bane, the chosen of Myrkul, a literal elder brain, an entire githyanki creche, a vampire lord, etc etc etc. and that's not even involving a dark urge instead They're not helpless or hapless. And even with all Astarion's new powers a stake to the heart is still extremely effective. Not to mention what their allies are likely to do if they learn Astarion has tried to bite Tav against their will. In the case of many of the companions Tav is the only thing keeping them from turning on ascended Astarion. Not to mention most Tav's won't even be alive in a hundred years either, for that matter. The elves would be. The drow .. I don't think Astarion should underestimate a Drow Tav in the least. The kind of things Drow do would likely make Cazador cry.
@@Xenolithial Oh, he's not a heartless monster. But he's a monster indeed. That enormous sacrifice did the trick. Whatever he does next won't undo that. He does think about killing his former companions to make sure they won't try to hunt him down later. It is explicitly stated in Ascended Astarion Origin ending (one of several possible endings, others aren't much better). He's no threat to Tav probably. But will that stop him from finding someone else in Tav's place? Especially considering all his feelings? He's spent so much time bringing people to Cazador, it certainly won't be a problem for him to find a replacement. The fact that there are things much worse than him doesn't make him any better. Or any less dangerous. As for Ascended Astarion thinking he's treating Tav exactly the way they want to be treated... There's that thing that he and others like Ketheric, Gortash or Cazador have in common. They're so sure they do the right thing. They enjoy it and they admire themselves for it. They are capable of doing terrible things without a second thought. Calmly. Cazador taking his sweet time to brag about his ritual while forcing Astarion to freeze in place. Ketheric calmly telling you he'd condemn all living beings in order to save his daughter. Ascended Astarion gleefully saying he could have turned you by force to teach you a lesson. (Btw, there's also a possibility of Astarion's soul burning eternally in the Hells while this empty husk of a man walks around bragging about his dreams of endless power.)
@@t0ry_centauri Oh you'll get no argument from me on whether he's evil or not haha. You don't sell children's souls to the devil without some major negative repercussions after all. I also don't really blame him for toying with the idea of killing his companions. Most of them are pretty callous toward him over the journey, Wyll in particular. He certainly doesn't trust them overall. And they all make it pretty clear that they disagree with him ascending. And generally things the party disagree with end up dead. As for whether Tav leaving him would stop him from finding someone else.. I suppose it depends on how you define "someone else." If you mean will he find more people to turn into spawn? Absolutely. Not even a question - he is very blatant about that being his intent. But if you mean will he find someone to fill the role Tav had for him? Someone that would brook that kind of fixation and trust and obsession? That he'd consider his lover eternal, the spawn above the others. The one he wants at his side? That seems a bit less certain. And honestly I don't think he would. There's a lot of dialogue in the game that implies that Tav may well be it for Astarion. _"He is so afraid. So _*_so_*_ afraid. Of everyone except... You."_ - Sceleritas Fel _"One of his few redeeming features is that he never trusts anybody. He is afraid. He is afraid because all he has ever known is _*_you_*_ and _*_me._*_ And without us he is nothing." / "When you don't return he will realize he has nowhere else to go."_ - Cazador _"He may seem like the carefree hedonist, but there's something fragile beneath the facade. If you can give him the solace I'm convinced he so desperately needs then it would just be cruel for me to try and elbow my way in."_ - Shadowheart _"I don't think I want you to think of me in terms of sex. ... I don't know if I want anyone to."_ _"It isn't humiliating to use myself as a weapon. Its degrading that people like her fall for it. Over and over again."_ _"Love? I don't remember love."_ _"You are one of a tiny number of people I've slept with who aren't dead."_ _"They weren't lovers.. Not in the way that you mean. They wanted me more than I wanted them."_ _"No one ever looked out for me. No one ever said a kind thing to me. You're the only one. Other people don't have a heart like you. You're... You. No one is like that."_ _"I feel safe with you. Seen. And whatever the future holds for me, I don't want to lose that."_ _"In a thousand years, when I've all but forgotten how to love yet again, you'll flit back into my heart. And I'll weep wondering what happened to my mad love."_ Some of this is Durge exclusive dialogue and some is from his spawn ending. But overall it paints a picture that Astarion is an incredibly untrusting person. Tav for him, more than any of the other companions, is all he knows and all he has. And the only one he was willing to risk trusting and even loving. He doesn't view Tav as being the same as anyone else he knows. Including his other companions. And if he does not end up with Tav then he always ends up alone afaik. Spawn Astarion was still struggling with who he is and what he wanted. But he was willing to take the risk for Tav and hope they would be enough. Ascended Astarion, meanwhile, doesn't get that opportunity. He is emotionally crippled by Tav during the ascension, and he regresses quite a bit as a result of Tav's choice. Which is something that seems to kind of slip through the cracks a lot when people talk about Ascended Astarion. His origin run aside, Astarion _cannot_ complete the ritual without Tav's consent. Astarion just walked through a house of horrors and in the span of minutes learned every person he thought was dead had been rotting beneath his feet, alive and starving, for centuries. He confronted the servents who worshipped Cazador, he confronted Godey who tortured him for days, he confronted Cazador himself and nearly lost everything. He is traumatized and bloodfrenzied and half out of his mind and he asks for help from the only person he's ever trusted. And to Ascend him Tav is essentially telling him that everything he always thought was right. Everything Cazador told him was right. He is weak. He is not enough. He will never be enough unless he has power. At the expense of everything else. The victims in the cells weren't truly Astarion's before that moment. Tav helps make them his. Tav is every bit the monster in that moment Astarion is. And he becomes exactly what Tav paid for. And tbh however cruel his words may be, I'm surprised Ascended Astarion isn't more enraged when Tav tries to blame him after, or say he's not the man they loved, etc. He's always been reactive. And the ascension ritual isn't eternity for Tav - but it certainly is for him. He _cannot_ undo the decision that was made. Tav breaking up with him after - rightly or wrongly - and treating him as the monster he was always worried they would see him as is quite the brutal betrayal in a lot of ways as a result. I'm honestly surprsied given how hurt he seems to be by this moment, how over-reactive he is in general, and his vampiric nature, that the least he did was try to remind Tav he could have power over them. It also seems a somewhat hollow threat given that they imply later a vampire has to drink all the person's blood for them to become a spawn. But that's semantics
As for him being like Kethric and Gortash and Cazador.. I'm afraid I don't agree with the concept that Gortash and Cazador and Kethric think they're doing the right thing. Gortash was sold by his parents to a devil who tormented him. He dragged himself literally from the hells and became the chosen of the God of Tyranny. He is responsible for the slack-skinned head in the mind flayer colony, the enslaved gnomes in the steel watch foundry. The child being chased down and nearly killed by the Steel Watcher. Gortash afaik doesn't believe he's doing the right thing - nor does he care. He's not interested in what Kethric or Orin or the people of Baldur's Gate want. All he cares about is making sure that he is the one who ends up holding the reigns at the end. He will share those reigns if he has to, but at no point does he seem to express any concern over whether what he is doing is right or not. Kethric is the epitome of not caring if he's doing the right thing. Kethric knows extremely well that what he's doing is evil. He just doesn't care. He went from Selune to Shar to Myrkul and the Absolute. And he knows that those last three are some of the evillest gods in existence. He let his family members be turned to rot and ruin, his villagers be hunted and tortured by dark justiciars. He imprisoned the child of his former God and harvested her power for a century to keep himself alive. All of which he does seemingly so he can force Isobel to be alive and by his side. He has absolutely zero interest in what Isobel wants. He will drag her to moonrise, kill everyone she cares about, force a tadpole in her eye. Not because he thinks its the right thing to do. But simply because he cannot stand letting her go. Cazador also has no interest in what his spawn want. Zero. He enjoys tormenting them not because he thinks they want to be tormented, but because he enjoys it. He imprisoned one of the spawn's daughters with him. Forced her to live among the other ravenous spawn and watch while her father was wh*red and tortured to try and guarantee her safety. He would force the spawn to torture themselves. He told Astarion outright: He was made to be consumed. Astarion is also capable of doing terrible things, absolutely. But doing terrible things because you want to do terrible things and doing terrible things because you think it's what someone else wants are two different things. And when it comes to Tav - at least in part - for Astarion it seems to be the second option. _"He will always see you as degrading yourself. But perhaps you wish to be degraded. And he knows it."_ I'll preface this again by saying Ascended Astarion's relationship with Tav is definitely not healthy. But he does spend a stupid amount of time getting Tav's consent every step of the way. Tav can consent to having sex. If they dislike the position, he will change it. Tav can also skip sex altogether and he won't push the issue. Tav can break up with him and he will let them leave. Tav can kick him in the balls and he won't try to rip out their throat (he literally just gets very mad and then leaves). Tav can ask him to be gentle and he'll bite their wrist. Tav can ask him to be rough and he'll choke them. The next morning he will talk about how perfect they are in his eyes - which is an insanely far cry from the way Cazador ever talked about him. Not all of his treatment of Tav is based on what he thinks Tav wants ofc. But at least some of it is. Granted they may well change all this with the september update, idk. As for his soul being trapped in the hells and him just being a husk... I'm not sure where that's coming from but I'd be interested to know more. As far as I know the devils of hell are very strictly bound to every contract they make. Taking Astarion's soul during the ritual sounds like it would break the contract quite readily. And Astarion himself also says he is not bound to Mephistophiles after the ritual is complete
This is pretty lore accurate for DnD. In actual DnD when you become a true vampire, your alignment automatically changes to evil, regardless of what it was before. The lore also describes how a vampire’s mortal emotions become twisted in undeath. Love becomes envy, care becomes jealousy and controlling, that sort of thing.
I think there's a bit more going on here. He has the scars binding him to the ritual. I think that the ritual burned away a significant chunk of astarion's soul and personality. Also, I think he's technically still a spawn? He never fed on cazadoor. He's just a spawn that's been empowered by the rite of profane ascension
He's not a true vampire. He's the Vampire Ascendant. It was homebrewed specifically for this game. He pretty much became what Cazador was striving for since being a true vampire is torture as Cazador reveals when you read his mind. What we're seeing here is most likely who he was before he became a vampire since he's supposed to have been a corrupt, power hungry magistrate who most likely believed himself to be untouchable. Astarion was already evil when you first met him with the penchant for killing people with glee as well as striving for power in dark places. There's no telling where this will go considering there isn't really anything that matches this new being or a canon description past what you're shown in the game.
@@eldritchthorne I will clarify that I mean I think the ritual fast forwarded his vampirism, giving him all the powers of a true vampire, then ascending him so that he suffers none of their weaknesses, making him the vampire ascendant.
@@eldritchthorne as for the part about him being evil before becoming a vampire, I can see that. I honestly like to believe he is more chaotic neutral when he joins our party, because chaotic evil is more dark urge embracing themselves. Very extreme. He was on the crossroads of choosing lawful evil (ascendant route) or chaotic good (hero astarion in the end). That’s my take on his journey anyway.
I know what you mean and you are right that this is what 5e dnd rules say but the story explicitly gives us Amanita Szarr to show the vampire = evil is not what they are going for. He changes because he cannot deal with his trauma, not because he becomes a true vampire.
This ending is the worst for Astarion but painfully realistic. A lot of the time the cycle of abuse is continued without proper healing, and victims can become victimizers without realizing they are just becoming their abuser
I wouldn't call it his worst ending. His worst ending is being sacrified before his friends can save him. His second worst is being zombified by Cazador because his sire is a petty b@st@rd. This is just third worst.
@@Toonkid4life1 If you don’t recruit him, kill him on bite night, or let the Gur hunter take him, you'll find him in Cazador's lair zombified. In the first case I believe Astarion went to confront his master by himself and Cazador had enough of his rebelliousness and was being petty. With the Gur, they kill him after questioning him and attempt to burn his corpse but get slaughtered by Cazador. In the last case, Cazador retrieves Astarion's body somehow even if you keep it stored in your inventory. Given when you meet the other spawn they'll tell you Cazador knew where Astarion was the whole time, which I believe is due to the runes carved on his back, Cazador being able to snatch him from the Gur makes sense and from wherever you leave him lying. The inventory thing seems to just be a weird game thing to keep the stories on track. Note too that when you kill Cazador, Zombie Astarion will explode like the Spawn do when sacrificed. One player discovered how to stop that from happening and got Zombie Astarion in camp but this seems to be nothing more than an exploit to cause a glitch.
@@meganparrish807Other things that you can do that turn into a terrible ending for him is stop him mid-Ascencion or downright refuse to continue helping him after you gave him the impression that you would during the ritual (to be fair, a lot of people did this thinking he'll just back down from ascending himself) For both of those, even if Cazador's dead he ends up running away from you and your party for good. His last words to you are very venomous He's also still got a tadpole and he's out of the Prism's protection so eventually, he gets enthralled by the Absolute anyway...
To each their own, but this is why it disturbs me when people are for ascending him. It is just.. rotting in his trauma forevermore, becoming like Cazador and causing the exact same thing to others that made him want to ascend in the first place. 10/10 cycle of abuse
I did a roll for insight into how he thought about my character after he had turned her and it was so terrible, I restarted to get the old Astarian back. I'm now on my second play through and I am loving me some Gale.
@@meri0312 To be fair, the writing stuck to complete evil and it was spot on. He basically thought, my gal was degrading herself by wanting to be with him. Maybe she wanted to be degraded, which would was fine by him because he only wanted to keep her as a pet. Locked in a cage to do his bidding. Now granted, I was playing Urge, but after that, after my reset, I forced her to try and be good. LOL. This game.. Truly EVIL. I love psychology and these writers really, really, really....did a fantastic job....too good sometimes. Scary.
Yeah bro it's always so nice going from romancing Astarion to romancing Gale, I know my boy Gale will make me feel better when Astarion is being mean to me 😂😂😂
@@birdsrneat LOL!! 100% I created a Devil Bard because now I just need a cuddle and someone to pet my hair after experiencing that. *Eats trauma ice cream sprinkled with Astarion tears* *Recovers and falls in love with Gale. Watches Astarion get jealous* Oh sweet revenge. The best part, there was an option for her to kick him in the balls...and she did just that. It was strangely therapeutic actually. Baulder's gate keeps it real. Greatest RPG game, hands down. 🤣🤣🤣
Astarion to me is a man with great confidence but no self esteem or has any real self worth. Being called perfect at a time when he was most scared, paranoid and uncertain about his future genuinely had him shook. I don't think Astarion has self loathing, but his story deals with how his whole life he's had to deal with people fawning over his looks and charms. Not him personally. So to be called perfect actually had him pause and be truly confused. Especially if he goes the Ascension route, AA seems to hate that past Astarion while Spawn Astarion has a more sympathetic view of his former self.
I think one of the lines Spawn Astarion can say during the end-game party summarizes it nicely: he'd been preoccupied with what people had done to him. Ascended Astarion lets those preoccupations consume him. E.g., he was a victim of those with power, so he has to become so powerful he can force others to never victimize him again. In contrast, Spawn Astarion breaks free of that mindset - choosing not to define himself by what was done to him, but by who he is. To only slightly paraphrase, "I spent too long defined by the choices others made for me ... I am me. For better *and* for worse." So yeah, I can 100% see why AA would loathe his former self. That "weakness" is antithetical to what he has recontextualized his entire life around. Power dynamic and the impact of others is his entire world now; whereas SA understands he was a victim of that dynamic and chooses to break free of it and the associated world view.
@@Sturmensky 100% this! I'm exploring this in a fanfic where I've managed to get spawn and ascended in the same timeline & I'm going to pit them against each other. Right now, spawns terrified of confronting his ascended self, because for him its a confrontation of everything dark that still lives inside him made manifest, whereas ascended wants to confront his spawn self so he can complete the job physically of murdering his 'past attachments and associations'.
A thing about healing from trauma is getting over being extremely harsh and critical of yourself. There is a big disconnect between your past and present self when you are dealing with this kind of stuff. Its like the person who was abused was someone entirely different, a pathetic weakling you look down on. But that person is you - your past you- and so you just start loathing yourself. This dynamic is very well included in his character progression. But healing involves being kind to yourself, to your past. I can recommend the book The Body Keeps The Score which goes pretty deep into that topic.
You know he says to your chracter you will regret leaving me more then anything yet I think he talking more about himself he regrets losing you more then anything
@@Xenolithial Yeah this was datamined. Not in the dialogue, but the dev notes. I may be wrong, but I think someone else went to see if they could retrieve those notes after, only to find them gone.
@@oldiebutgoodie79 that may be it, Ty. Originally I think they had ascended Astarion and Tav having a pretty decent time together iirc but then I guess they figured that was problematic Tbh he is so insanely upset and sounds on the verge of crying at one point even though he's angry. I would suspect he misses Tav anyway, even if they never confirm ot
I went through the rest of the game with him ascended because I wanted to see what would happen. I ran through a second play through on the same file and made him nice. Lesson. Learned.
@@robbietox „Made him nice“ means keeping him a spawn. My goody two-shoes druid has him in the party since act 1, and he’s firmly planted in neutral/positive-neutral approval. His approval would go up if they would just be even slightly mean to people, but they just don’t have it in them. They just want to heeelp. That said, their wanting to help everyone includes Astarion, meaning there are numerous approval bumps that keep their relationship from going sour. My spore druid just wants to be besties with the undead. =(
1) Astarion literally tells you in act 1 that he‘d prefer to just kill the guy. 2) All full vampires are amoral sociopaths, they literally cannot help it. Vellioth‘s skull in the temple tells you that pretty directly. Cazador‘s time under Vellioth was on par with Astarion‘s under him. 3) If you sacrifice seven THOUSAND souls for this man, you do NOT get to complain. 4) Neither can you claim your character to be good-aligned anymore. You are evil. That said, my evil Drow Durge had zero regrets. I also had her favorite pet talk to Sceleritas both times that was possible, just to drill it into his head that there’s no way in the nine hells he could ever fully control a Chosen of Bhaal. Every single thing she did for him, she did by choice. The good, the bad, and the funny.
Sacrificing the spawn is objectively evil and I am by no means an Ascendant Astarion defender. But it’s not too hard to rationalize ascending him. Killing the spawn outright isn’t evil. It’s a complex situation and by killing the spawn now, you can assure no one will become their victims in the future. I never made that choice, but there’s some rationale there. Then there’s Astarion’s siblings. There are only six and them not being under Cazador’s control anymore is a mercy on its own. These are all reasons Astarion used throughout the game. And while the ritual is inarguably evil, these reasonings become excuses really quick. I think it’s compelling to imagine a Tav without strong morals being persuaded by Astarion: an evil person with the best intentions.
I mean most people who complain are doing so because they don’t like the ending. Like at least half the people who ascended him only did so to see what he’d be like ascended. It’s more of an experiment than active choices with the expectation of an unaligned outcome, so I think it makes sense there are complaints, since it’s mainly from people who just find this to be an unfortunate ending for his character.
I absolutely love this! I'm a spawn fan, but this is unapologetic, and you've done it without any rose coloured glasses on. I applaud you and wish more AA fans did it for these reasons.
Having a super toxic relationship with him and evil Durge was so fun. Like I felt so bad telling him to get his shit together when he was having doubts about the prisoners, but realistic my evil Durge would not care about any of these people. He barely cared about the companions and only because they were useful. Ascension has no place in a good or neutral playthrough, its messed up and evil and you have to commit. Including children into the pool of 7000 people getting their souls sacrificed is the most obvious hint that should clue anyone in to what's going on.
He’s so fucking spiteful when he ascends. He’s also still lying and cloaking his true feelings. In the graveyard scene in the spawn ending he admits to not really caring for you when you first met. In the ascension ending he says something like “oh I’ve been attracted to you since we first met!” This is just as bad as straight losing the fight to cazador, astarion just becomes him….
I don't remember him saying that after ascending. The only thing I can think of that's close to that is during the Act 1 romance scene where he says, "There you are. I've been waiting. Waiting since the moment I set eyes on you. Waiting to have you".
@@GeeslinsNerdRoom I just looked at every possible dialogue option in his Act 3 romance scene while ascended. He doesn't say anything like that. Is it with a specific character that isn't Tav/Durge?
Neil Newbon, Astarion's VA, actually talked about how, with ascended Astarion, they were going for the idea that his cover was off completely, that he was completely honest and felt no need to pretend anymore. You shouldn't take any singular route as a supreme indicator of what's true because the companions' wants vary depending on the choices you make.
This is why I'll NEVER understand why some Astarion fans think letting him ascend is his HAPPY ending (and they'll scratch and claw and bend over backwards to claim A!Astarion still genuinely loves Tav in spite of any and all evidence presented to them). Letting him ascend is allowing him to literally become Cazador 2.0 (worse even, since he's more powerful than Cazador). This is letting him perpetuate the cycle of abuse to infinity....him staying a spawn is him healing from his abuse and becoming (depending on your playstyle, my Tavs tend to be noble heroic types) a better person. "But he loses the ability to walk in the sun!" Me: This is a fantasy world with literal gods walking around....you don't think Tav, once the mindflayer issue is solved *won't* embark on a new epic quest to find another way for him to walk in the sun *without* having to literally become an evil monster in the process?
Agreed. But for me, why justify sacrificing his hard won, newly emerging humanity, just so he can walk in the sun? In my opinion, one doesn't equate to the other. I love seeing at the party how spawn has accepted his lifestyle. He seems to truly have come to some sort of inner accommodation with being nocturnal. Which again, hints that maybe it was never about walking in the sun in the first place, but all about the freedom to choose for himself what he could do in the dark.
this!! this was my immediate exact thought process when i heard the endings available for him. the very idea of ascending astarion didn’t sit right with me cause it was CAZADOR’S ritual that he would be doing in his stead?? that couldn’t be good. i was like 'i’d rather have him as he is, he already is everything i need & perfect' and then proceeded to plan out the quest immediately following the ending where my tav comes back with a cure while halsin nurses astarion from the burns during that time.
Spawn Astarion indeed loses the ability to walk in the sun. But he learns how to live with it. This is a crucial part of a healing process. Traumatic experiences are life-altering. They leave marks that can't be ignored. You can't move on if you don't accept the changes brought by them. Every other companion has to do it. Karlach has to live with her engine. Lae'Zel has to abandon her dreams of becoming her queen's loyal warrior. Shadowheart has to put up with the loss of decades of her life as well as her memories. Spawn Astarion stops treating his vampirism as a curse and accepts darkness as a part of him. Ascended Astarion literally "unmakes what Cazador made him to be". Which also implies erasing him as a person. That's not dealing with trauma. Ascention isn't a happy ending. It's a tragedy for anyone involved. And yes, there're plenty ways (in DND at least) to let Spawn Astarion walk in the sun again.
This means that you didn't manage to understand this character. He is not for you. Larian proved that after the Ascention, Astarion returned to his former self, like he was BEFORE he was turned into a vampire. If you like miserable slave spawn Astarion I pitty you.
He starts off the game putting a knife to tav's throat, he tries non-consensually to drain their blood, then later resorts to seducing and manipulating their feelings soley for his protection. And that's not counting the things he does to others. I love him, but nobody who romances him has high ground lol you're not any better than people who chose a different route.
There’s no need for that! Look I’m an SA fan too but AA girls are entitled to their preferences. And let’s be honest… we’re all obsessed with a pixel man. We ALL need therapy lol
@@SkycometAnimeVampThank you! People get way too personal about this stuff. I think a lot of people who prefer SA misunderstand the appeal of AA and think we're just deluding ourselves about him. And yeah tbh, we all need therapy lmao
The thing that sickens and breaks me about Ascended Astarion... is that WE made him into another Cazador. The thing that was so incredibly admirable about Astarion, is despite all the torture Cazador put him through, Astarion never broke. Not TRULY, anyway, and certainly not in the way Cazador wanted. Astarion continued to still be defiant, in his small, little ways. Sure, he finally did as he was told, but that didn't mean he stopped fighting his little battles, didn't mean he wouldn't take advantage of the specks of freedom he managed to find or was granted. A truly broken Slave wouldn't have run his mouth to everyone, in fear of enraging his master. A truly broken slave wouldn't have continued defying his master. In Cazador's journal, just before we meet him, he's OBSESSED with Astarion, nearly all the entries are of him and how he keeps doing something that makes Cazador want to punish him. Because he's never broke to the degree Cazador wanted him to. And its even more compounded by the fact tgat the first REAL chance Astarion gets tge chance to run away, and be free of Cazador... he takes it, without hesitation. A TRULY broken slave would have been terrified out of their mind, and would have been running to return to their master's side, before their punishment gets too severe. But Astarion didn't. He HATES Cazador. And despite the fact that Cazador fundementally changed Astarion forever... he. Never. Broke. Until we Ascend him. Every cruel word Cazador says to Astarion, A!Astarion seems to echo back at us. The way that Cazador carried and presented himself, A!Astarion mirrors that. And I know for damn sure that A!Astarion is going to treat his spawns nearly exactly as Cazador treated them. Astarion spent so long trying to get away from his master, but at the last moment, he finally broke, and now his every thought, action, and moditive is influenced with everything Cazador had done, and finally, finally erased the person that Astarion used to be. In the final moments, when Astarion Adcends, Cazador wins, despite the fact that he's dead now. Because of US, Cazador finally got what he wanted, and broke Astarion.
So beautifully put, I really commend you. That defiance and desperation to be free is so integral to him. I hate the idea that he would move into the castle where he was tortured and abused for so long, after centuries of wishing to escape.
@@PenguinFondue And keep Rhapsody, the blade used to carve those runes on him in the first place. And Woe, used to trap him with Infernal magic. I've read where others that have been traumatised themselves claim that there is some sort of reclamation of power by claiming objects used to have inflicted pain in the first place ... vaild, as everyone is individual and deals with healing from trauma in their own way. However, AA isn't any longer healing from his trauma. He has become stagnant and unable to in that regard due to becoming a full vampire and no longer having the emotions necessary to process that healing. So Rhapsody and Woe really can't be seen as reclaiming lost power to signify the healing process; they are now symbols of power tied to viscous acts of violence. Which relates right back to dnd vampires and their obsession with collecting instruments of torture.
Did an evil durge playthrough where I ascended and romanced him... Safe to say that it wasn't rewarding, got me to hate him and will never make me ascend him ever again. 😀 I currently have to heal my heart and stay away from him by romancing Gale and my lord, that was the best decision I could've made
Feel like the most poetic way to remedy that as an evil durge would be to take control of the Netherbrain (either in Bhaal's name or your own) and enthrall him to *your* will, but that could just be the more twisted side of me showing. *Shrugs*
The first playthrough that I let Astarion ascend was also the first time I fully romanced him. The first time I kissed him post ascension he made me get on my knees first. I had to turn the game off.
I only let him ascend once and it was on an evil playthrough, so my evil Bard Durge was more than happy to rule the world with him…. Tho it made me so sad because i love my soft baby spawn 🥲
I'll never understand why there's a huge debate about AA and Spawn Astarion they both literally say what's going on. I've seen so many tumblr essays on the subject when AA and Spawn just flat out say what the ritual has or hasn't done to them in their dialogue. It's just soo simply there's no debate
Ascended Astarion appeals to some people. But I just can’t bring myself to let him ascend even though I’m curious, Because from everything I’ve seen, Ascended Astarion is not the real Astarion. He’s a twisted version that has been stripped of everything that made me love him in the first place: goofiness, joy, moments of authenticity, vulnerability, and hope
@@damien678 select him and have him talk to Sceleritas before entering Bhaal‘s temple. If you accepted Bhaal, repeat this back at camp. It’s hilarious. =)
If you don't take it too serious he is quite funny tho. Not the kind of funny he was before, more like in an unhinged psycho way. Like evil Lae'zel and evil Shadowheart. You just stand back and watch their insane facial expressions and the weird yapping coming out of their mouths. They never stop talking. A!Astarion fits in really well with those two. I really recommend turning the companions evil for one run and see that train wreck unfold right before your eyes. It was a trip on my evil Durge playthrough with the polyamory mod.
I let him ascend in one playthrough to see what happens. After the very first conversation he came off as a soulless monster with no resemblance of his former self. I reloaded and never did that again. He actually becomes a better person and learns how to be happy if he doesn't ascend which is lovely to see.
I became Bhaal's chosen as Durge. when this triggered, it didn't exactly happen the same, instead we talked about how we both want to rule the world and it would be a race to see who could do it first. Sorry bud, you lost.
On my first playthrough, I didn't know what he was like when you ascend him so I let him do it, and I just immediately reverted back to my old save after one dialogue with him. Literally talked to him one time and went "wow I'm not dealing with this" lmao
I hated Ascended Astarion. Ascended him in my second playthrough as Durge and gawds he made her feel like crud. Her ending was very sad, and very lonely. I'd say what happened but I don't want to spoil it for anyone who wants to play Dark Urge. Needless to say I'll never Ascend him again.
I'm on an evil durge run and I will ascend him soon :( I personally don't want him to become like this (I had the spawn ending 2 times before ♡) but this time I will only do it for role play purposes. If I truly can't take him being like this instead of being happy and free, I will probably do some mental gymnastics to justify why my lolth sworn drow durge would encourage him to not go through with the ritual :D
Good luck with that run! I ended up making a new character that won't romance him. Maybe I'll let him ascend on that run. It's just too sad to ascend him when he's romanced.
This is something I wrote up in a few minutes you can use to justify why Astarion shouldn't ascend in an evil drow durge playthrough. Hope it helps: "It is weak and pathetic to rely on the backstabbing of devils. They cannot bargain their way into winning an endless war against themselves -- selling one's soul only proves they lack the true ambition needed to obtain what they desire. If someone were to perform this 'Rite of Profane Ascension,' all they would win is a new limit to what they are capable of, and dozens of new vices that dulls the mind and are hidden deep within the fine lines of that contract. It is better not to ascend, but rather to hone one's skill and take what is rightfully yours, no matter how long it takes." (I basically thought, "what would Minthara say about this if she were against it?")
@@celin99 You could have your Durge get lost in the heat of battle and kill one of the other spawn. I suggest Petras. No need for excuses, just sheer bloodlust.
I like his character either way. I Ascended him my first run and this current one I challenged myself to make all good choices and see if I still could. So far Act 2 after the Araj exchange (defending him) we had the conversation where he confesses to sleeping with you for protection. It's a totally different tone from the one where he blurts it out to you because you have to get him to tell you. He sounds like a jerk at first saying it was easy to seduce you and then he started to legitimately feel for you. When he said it in that way I almost friend zoned him which he approves of...but I told him I cared and that we can hold off on sleeping together until he was ready. Which he's okay with. I don't know why some believe you can't be a good aligned PC and romance him. He will call you on the Hero behavior but it doesn't mean he disapproves of every good choice you make. Just as long as you respect his body autonomy (especially after the Araj conversation DO NOT ask him for sex as a reward for taking up for him) and don't continuously pick sexual options when talking to him. Call him on it. When he approaches you the second time at camp to sleep with him and he starts flattering you, you can tell him maybe another time. He'll still like you. I think the most difficult thing for me when romancing him is STAYING AWAY FROM HALSIN. 😩
I’m a spawn fan and I don’t get the hatred towards A! Astarion fans? We came here to simp for a pretty sexy elf, what’s the difference whether he’s evil or not?
@@himalayansalt32 Because I don't think all of us do come here to simp over a pretty sexy elf. I think a lot of us are drawn to his character development, or story arc. Or him as a character rather than pretty pixels. It matters when you care for a character. And you're allowed to care for a made up story character, people have been doing it since the first story ever came about. It's why people are invested in stories in the first place, because they come to love and care about the characters, and, hopefully, would want to see the best for them, just like they would people they care about in real life.
@@oldiebutgoodie79 If that were true, no one would ever cheer for a villain. AA is a villain, he is no different from Ganondorf, Sauron, Thanos, or GlaDOS.
There’s no need for that! You’re being an A hole. I’m an SA fan too but AA fans are entitled to their preference. Besides… we’re all in love with a pixel man. I think we could all use therapy 😂
He Ascended on my second playthrough (that Tav and Astarion are just good friends) and it’s not as bad as I was expecting so far. I dunno if I screwed something up or haven’t gotten far enough in Act 3 to see him change yet, or if he only acts like a dick if you romanced him, but…he seems mostly the same? And he has cool new powers. I don’t regret it
He only acts like a dick if you romance him. I let him ascend through both my playthroughs cuz it feels like the better option. Especially given that after the parasite is gone, he'll still be stuck as a vampire spawn. So it's not really freedom.
@@MultiBlack17 ? How is it not freedom by still just being a spawn? He's free of the worm, free of Cazador, and free of being a full vampire and a slave to the dark desires. He's free to make his own choices, live how he want's to live, hang around whoever he wants to hang around with, form relationships with whoever he wants to form them with.
I feel like my ending would have made a lot of people upset but I'm happy with it. Ascended Astarion, godified Gale, and became an individual minded Ilithid with two very powerful friends lol. I mean, I got Karlach and Wyll to be a hellfighting power couple and romanced a redeemed Shadowheart, so the other half of the party got their best endings so like that's half the party doing good.
On my first run as chaotic evil dark urge I let him ascend (cause I thought it's good match and good ending for them), do not regret at all - that really fit my idea about how their relationship will work, all except scared kisses, lol, my durge certainly would smile not freak out 😂 now doing good redemption durge and will finally see how he is in spawn mode 😅
as soon as they changed the kiss I quit my second run... almost done with 3rd act and I just couldn't. AA WITH DURGE deserved a power couple ending where he respected durge's power
Letting them reach their "salvation" are nearly always the worst result. SPOILERS AHEAD Astarion literally loses himself, gale completely abandons every he loves to become a god, lazel gets consumed by her "queen", shadowheart is forced to kill her parents and forget about it. Well i guess only these 4 get bad ending if you do what they want but it makes the good endings that much better
Blaming this personality change on his ascension is kind of like blaming someone's temper and the mean things they have to say around them on being drunk. It was always in there, it's just amplified. They think and feel it sober, they just have the sense not to say it. I love him, but he was a selfish, manipulative tw@t as a spawn. He just feels he can say whatever he wants out loud now that he's ascended because he's not hiding behind the biggest bully on the playground anymore. He IS the biggest bully on the playground. Looking at the full list of approval options (I went digging for as many points as possible in act 1 to try and find a workaround to sleeping with him and still romancing him) this is clearly the same man speaking freely because he can back it up. There's a line where he similarly threatens you as King of the Spawn if you break up with him. I, personally, ascend him (Hush, paladins!) for a multitude of reasons, but mostly revenge against Cazador and the opportunity to have the full Dracula experience of being turned into a bride. (Screw birds of a feather, we're bats of a leather!) Until Larian gives us the option of Astarion sucking Cazador flat like a Caprisun and becoming a true vampire without ascending I'm probably going to keep doing it. I tried biting him during his fight but you get hit with "Cannot target the undead." You can bite Astarion, though. He has nothing to say besides the usual lines about being smacked. Thought for sure he'd say something about getting more than one drop of his blood.
@@theprogamer5910 Remembering all the murdering, thieving, torturing, threatening, deceiving, and mocking I did to get his approval up as high as possible, I don't think the needle moved very much.
@@darksorceressharuko And I hope that your mother will still have time to teach you that it is impolite to write advice to strangers that you were not asked for😏
What people don't realize is that Astarion is evil. Has been the entire game. He's charming, which is what vampires do to use people. They think he's the way he is because he doesn't have power, that's he's scared, etc. Yes, he doesn't have power and he's scared, but he's still EVIL. Its all fake, and the moment he gets power he doesn't need you anymore.
Lol true this is what astarion simps cannot understand cause they are still drunk on twilight shit. This is why I simply bring him along for araj’s potion…the dude is so evil he disapproves of things minthara would approve of. At least she is self-aware. He is not. I feel no guilt doing that to him…love gaslighting that shit and emotionally manipulating him his approval was still on exceptional bahahaha…i plan to ascend him then betray him to the gur.
If you don't like Ascended Astarion, choose Wyll or Gale. They will take a good care of your Tav/Durge. Spawn lovers just love to see how their "sexy" vampire elf suffers. Losers.
![[SPOILER] New Astarion's Evil Ending. Patch 7. Baldur's Gate 3](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/u51-BHFs_Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
Homeboy is gonna go cry after this conversation lol
100% he will. 💀😭😂
for real omg
Telling Astarion he was perfect before the ritual shows just a glimpse of his former self. His facade falls and he’s confused and even hoping for validation. It’s tragic how quickly he replaces that vulnerability with hostility.
I loved that reaction, honestly. It baffles him that his former self could be so cherished
It's such a shame that he never actually believes that he can be enough. All that confidence yet he is a little lost boy deep inside (Cazador is right about this). People in real life have this mindset too quite often. They can be rich and powerful and it gives them ''confidence'' cause deep inside they feel that they are nothing without it. I know someone like this and unfortunately it's impossible to make that person see that they are more than money and power. They get pissed and aggressive cause it's their defense mechanism. Also call their past self ''weak and pathetic''. No matter how powerful and wealthy you are if you are an ass you cannot keep people with you. Even if you do it's because it's their duty and personal gain. No real feelings. Better to stay ''poor and weak'' and true to yourself than powerful and unhappy in the process. Money and power can only give so much. I think that even if Asti doesn't ascend and he confesses his love still deep inside he thinks that he is not enough and always gonna feel like this. It's our job to reassure and support him that he is enough.
My buddy and I who are trying to get every scene have agreed we will never let him ascend again
Do you happen to know if that "missing Astarion content" Neil mentioned has ever been found? I've tried to find out if anyone's gotten it yet but haven't seen any updates, and that was almost a year ago now
GamesRadar+ asked the developers directly.
There's a quest in Rosimorn Monastery that rewards a great mace called Lathander's Blood. If you're not careful or try to decorate the mace, you can activate a dreaded solar weapon. If you kill Astarion with this solar weapon and then revive him when you return to camp, he'll have a few words with you.
Lae'zel will _also_ have a few words for you ftr
@@knodgo Ooooh okay, thank you!! I could have sworn Neil said it was like, 40 minutes worth of content, but that's probably just faulty memory. But I've seen the scene you mentioned on yt and couldn't figure out at what point I had the chance to kill him with a solar weapon - so you solved not one but two mysteries for me, haha. Thank you :)
@@quikinn527 Yes, he said something like that. He probably took into account the average time to get this result. You're welcome :)
I just realised that A!Astarion yaps even more than Gale lmao
“A!Astarion” 😭😭😭😭😭
@@muffinconsumer4431 wait what's strange about it? I see people use "a!astarion" often
@@ohnoski_ X!Character is used to show different qualities of a character, but it’s most often used as M! And F! to show sexes in erotica lmao
@@muffinconsumer4431 idk I'd say it's used in many different contexts and erotica isn't necessarily the main one. But perhaps it just depends on what we interact with the most lol
Yeah I see x! Often in fanfiction and roleplay communities
If you tell him he's not as powerful as he thinks (option 2 1:10), he'll threaten to turn you by force. "I can take anything I want. I should have made you a spawn just to teach you that."
The scariest part is the possibility of him trying to get you back later. Maybe in a decade. Or in a hundred years. When you start thinking he's moved on. When you get distracted enough by your own life to let down your guard.
"You will regret leaving me. More than anything you live to regret."
ad its so so true to real life abuse too. Theyre so talented at letting things drop or letting you get settled and drop your guard only to swoop back in and wreck your life and all your progress. the "take anything I want" line legit makes me kinda sick because yeah, the worst ones say, believe and will do just that. Ascended is such an important story to show and the fact that so many people realize he wont stop... chilling and satisfying storytelling all in one
Ascended Astarion isn't a heartless monster ftr. He does care about and misses Tav if they break up.
If you read his mind when he bites you it's revealed that he thinks he's treating Tav exactly the way they want to be treated.
Doesn't make it a healthy relationship by any stretch mind you
But... Tav also literally kills a God and defies several others. As well as potentially a devil, multiple necromancers, the chosen of Bhaal, the chosen of Bane, the chosen of Myrkul, a literal elder brain, an entire githyanki creche, a vampire lord, etc etc etc. and that's not even involving a dark urge instead
They're not helpless or hapless. And even with all Astarion's new powers a stake to the heart is still extremely effective.
Not to mention what their allies are likely to do if they learn Astarion has tried to bite Tav against their will.
In the case of many of the companions Tav is the only thing keeping them from turning on ascended Astarion.
Not to mention most Tav's won't even be alive in a hundred years either, for that matter. The elves would be. The drow .. I don't think Astarion should underestimate a Drow Tav in the least. The kind of things Drow do would likely make Cazador cry.
@@Xenolithial
Oh, he's not a heartless monster. But he's a monster indeed. That enormous sacrifice did the trick. Whatever he does next won't undo that.
He does think about killing his former companions to make sure they won't try to hunt him down later. It is explicitly stated in Ascended Astarion Origin ending (one of several possible endings, others aren't much better).
He's no threat to Tav probably. But will that stop him from finding someone else in Tav's place? Especially considering all his feelings? He's spent so much time bringing people to Cazador, it certainly won't be a problem for him to find a replacement.
The fact that there are things much worse than him doesn't make him any better. Or any less dangerous.
As for Ascended Astarion thinking he's treating Tav exactly the way they want to be treated... There's that thing that he and others like Ketheric, Gortash or Cazador have in common. They're so sure they do the right thing. They enjoy it and they admire themselves for it. They are capable of doing terrible things without a second thought. Calmly.
Cazador taking his sweet time to brag about his ritual while forcing Astarion to freeze in place. Ketheric calmly telling you he'd condemn all living beings in order to save his daughter. Ascended Astarion gleefully saying he could have turned you by force to teach you a lesson.
(Btw, there's also a possibility of Astarion's soul burning eternally in the Hells while this empty husk of a man walks around bragging about his dreams of endless power.)
@@t0ry_centauri Oh you'll get no argument from me on whether he's evil or not haha. You don't sell children's souls to the devil without some major negative repercussions after all.
I also don't really blame him for toying with the idea of killing his companions. Most of them are pretty callous toward him over the journey, Wyll in particular. He certainly doesn't trust them overall. And they all make it pretty clear that they disagree with him ascending. And generally things the party disagree with end up dead.
As for whether Tav leaving him would stop him from finding someone else.. I suppose it depends on how you define "someone else." If you mean will he find more people to turn into spawn? Absolutely. Not even a question - he is very blatant about that being his intent.
But if you mean will he find someone to fill the role Tav had for him? Someone that would brook that kind of fixation and trust and obsession? That he'd consider his lover eternal, the spawn above the others. The one he wants at his side? That seems a bit less certain. And honestly I don't think he would.
There's a lot of dialogue in the game that implies that Tav may well be it for Astarion.
_"He is so afraid. So _*_so_*_ afraid. Of everyone except... You."_ - Sceleritas Fel
_"One of his few redeeming features is that he never trusts anybody. He is afraid. He is afraid because all he has ever known is _*_you_*_ and _*_me._*_ And without us he is nothing." / "When you don't return he will realize he has nowhere else to go."_ - Cazador
_"He may seem like the carefree hedonist, but there's something fragile beneath the facade. If you can give him the solace I'm convinced he so desperately needs then it would just be cruel for me to try and elbow my way in."_ - Shadowheart
_"I don't think I want you to think of me in terms of sex. ... I don't know if I want anyone to."_
_"It isn't humiliating to use myself as a weapon. Its degrading that people like her fall for it. Over and over again."_
_"Love? I don't remember love."_
_"You are one of a tiny number of people I've slept with who aren't dead."_
_"They weren't lovers.. Not in the way that you mean. They wanted me more than I wanted them."_
_"No one ever looked out for me. No one ever said a kind thing to me. You're the only one. Other people don't have a heart like you. You're... You. No one is like that."_
_"I feel safe with you. Seen. And whatever the future holds for me, I don't want to lose that."_
_"In a thousand years, when I've all but forgotten how to love yet again, you'll flit back into my heart. And I'll weep wondering what happened to my mad love."_
Some of this is Durge exclusive dialogue and some is from his spawn ending. But overall it paints a picture that Astarion is an incredibly untrusting person. Tav for him, more than any of the other companions, is all he knows and all he has. And the only one he was willing to risk trusting and even loving. He doesn't view Tav as being the same as anyone else he knows. Including his other companions. And if he does not end up with Tav then he always ends up alone afaik.
Spawn Astarion was still struggling with who he is and what he wanted. But he was willing to take the risk for Tav and hope they would be enough.
Ascended Astarion, meanwhile, doesn't get that opportunity. He is emotionally crippled by Tav during the ascension, and he regresses quite a bit as a result of Tav's choice.
Which is something that seems to kind of slip through the cracks a lot when people talk about Ascended Astarion. His origin run aside, Astarion _cannot_ complete the ritual without Tav's consent.
Astarion just walked through a house of horrors and in the span of minutes learned every person he thought was dead had been rotting beneath his feet, alive and starving, for centuries. He confronted the servents who worshipped Cazador, he confronted Godey who tortured him for days, he confronted Cazador himself and nearly lost everything. He is traumatized and bloodfrenzied and half out of his mind and he asks for help from the only person he's ever trusted.
And to Ascend him Tav is essentially telling him that everything he always thought was right. Everything Cazador told him was right. He is weak. He is not enough. He will never be enough unless he has power. At the expense of everything else. The victims in the cells weren't truly Astarion's before that moment. Tav helps make them his.
Tav is every bit the monster in that moment Astarion is. And he becomes exactly what Tav paid for.
And tbh however cruel his words may be, I'm surprised Ascended Astarion isn't more enraged when Tav tries to blame him after, or say he's not the man they loved, etc. He's always been reactive. And the ascension ritual isn't eternity for Tav - but it certainly is for him. He _cannot_ undo the decision that was made.
Tav breaking up with him after - rightly or wrongly - and treating him as the monster he was always worried they would see him as is quite the brutal betrayal in a lot of ways as a result. I'm honestly surprsied given how hurt he seems to be by this moment, how over-reactive he is in general, and his vampiric nature, that the least he did was try to remind Tav he could have power over them. It also seems a somewhat hollow threat given that they imply later a vampire has to drink all the person's blood for them to become a spawn. But that's semantics
As for him being like Kethric and Gortash and Cazador.. I'm afraid I don't agree with the concept that Gortash and Cazador and Kethric think they're doing the right thing.
Gortash was sold by his parents to a devil who tormented him. He dragged himself literally from the hells and became the chosen of the God of Tyranny. He is responsible for the slack-skinned head in the mind flayer colony, the enslaved gnomes in the steel watch foundry. The child being chased down and nearly killed by the Steel Watcher. Gortash afaik doesn't believe he's doing the right thing - nor does he care. He's not interested in what Kethric or Orin or the people of Baldur's Gate want. All he cares about is making sure that he is the one who ends up holding the reigns at the end. He will share those reigns if he has to, but at no point does he seem to express any concern over whether what he is doing is right or not.
Kethric is the epitome of not caring if he's doing the right thing. Kethric knows extremely well that what he's doing is evil. He just doesn't care. He went from Selune to Shar to Myrkul and the Absolute. And he knows that those last three are some of the evillest gods in existence. He let his family members be turned to rot and ruin, his villagers be hunted and tortured by dark justiciars. He imprisoned the child of his former God and harvested her power for a century to keep himself alive. All of which he does seemingly so he can force Isobel to be alive and by his side. He has absolutely zero interest in what Isobel wants. He will drag her to moonrise, kill everyone she cares about, force a tadpole in her eye. Not because he thinks its the right thing to do. But simply because he cannot stand letting her go.
Cazador also has no interest in what his spawn want. Zero. He enjoys tormenting them not because he thinks they want to be tormented, but because he enjoys it. He imprisoned one of the spawn's daughters with him. Forced her to live among the other ravenous spawn and watch while her father was wh*red and tortured to try and guarantee her safety. He would force the spawn to torture themselves. He told Astarion outright: He was made to be consumed.
Astarion is also capable of doing terrible things, absolutely. But doing terrible things because you want to do terrible things and doing terrible things because you think it's what someone else wants are two different things. And when it comes to Tav - at least in part - for Astarion it seems to be the second option.
_"He will always see you as degrading yourself. But perhaps you wish to be degraded. And he knows it."_
I'll preface this again by saying Ascended Astarion's relationship with Tav is definitely not healthy. But he does spend a stupid amount of time getting Tav's consent every step of the way.
Tav can consent to having sex. If they dislike the position, he will change it. Tav can also skip sex altogether and he won't push the issue. Tav can break up with him and he will let them leave. Tav can kick him in the balls and he won't try to rip out their throat (he literally just gets very mad and then leaves). Tav can ask him to be gentle and he'll bite their wrist. Tav can ask him to be rough and he'll choke them. The next morning he will talk about how perfect they are in his eyes - which is an insanely far cry from the way Cazador ever talked about him.
Not all of his treatment of Tav is based on what he thinks Tav wants ofc. But at least some of it is.
Granted they may well change all this with the september update, idk.
As for his soul being trapped in the hells and him just being a husk... I'm not sure where that's coming from but I'd be interested to know more.
As far as I know the devils of hell are very strictly bound to every contract they make. Taking Astarion's soul during the ritual sounds like it would break the contract quite readily. And Astarion himself also says he is not bound to Mephistophiles after the ritual is complete
This is pretty lore accurate for DnD. In actual DnD when you become a true vampire, your alignment automatically changes to evil, regardless of what it was before. The lore also describes how a vampire’s mortal emotions become twisted in undeath. Love becomes envy, care becomes jealousy and controlling, that sort of thing.
I think there's a bit more going on here. He has the scars binding him to the ritual. I think that the ritual burned away a significant chunk of astarion's soul and personality. Also, I think he's technically still a spawn? He never fed on cazadoor. He's just a spawn that's been empowered by the rite of profane ascension
He's not a true vampire. He's the Vampire Ascendant. It was homebrewed specifically for this game. He pretty much became what Cazador was striving for since being a true vampire is torture as Cazador reveals when you read his mind. What we're seeing here is most likely who he was before he became a vampire since he's supposed to have been a corrupt, power hungry magistrate who most likely believed himself to be untouchable. Astarion was already evil when you first met him with the penchant for killing people with glee as well as striving for power in dark places. There's no telling where this will go considering there isn't really anything that matches this new being or a canon description past what you're shown in the game.
@@eldritchthorne I will clarify that I mean I think the ritual fast forwarded his vampirism, giving him all the powers of a true vampire, then ascending him so that he suffers none of their weaknesses, making him the vampire ascendant.
@@eldritchthorne as for the part about him being evil before becoming a vampire, I can see that. I honestly like to believe he is more chaotic neutral when he joins our party, because chaotic evil is more dark urge embracing themselves. Very extreme. He was on the crossroads of choosing lawful evil (ascendant route) or chaotic good (hero astarion in the end). That’s my take on his journey anyway.
I know what you mean and you are right that this is what 5e dnd rules say but the story explicitly gives us Amanita Szarr to show the vampire = evil is not what they are going for. He changes because he cannot deal with his trauma, not because he becomes a true vampire.
This ending is the worst for Astarion but painfully realistic. A lot of the time the cycle of abuse is continued without proper healing, and victims can become victimizers without realizing they are just becoming their abuser
I wouldn't call it his worst ending.
His worst ending is being sacrified before his friends can save him.
His second worst is being zombified by Cazador because his sire is a petty b@st@rd.
This is just third worst.
I’m sry- WHAT? Zombie? What do you mean?? He’s already undead?
@@Toonkid4life1
If you don’t recruit him, kill him on bite night, or let the Gur hunter take him, you'll find him in Cazador's lair zombified.
In the first case I believe Astarion went to confront his master by himself and Cazador had enough of his rebelliousness and was being petty. With the Gur, they kill him after questioning him and attempt to burn his corpse but get slaughtered by Cazador. In the last case, Cazador retrieves Astarion's body somehow even if you keep it stored in your inventory.
Given when you meet the other spawn they'll tell you Cazador knew where Astarion was the whole time, which I believe is due to the runes carved on his back, Cazador being able to snatch him from the Gur makes sense and from wherever you leave him lying. The inventory thing seems to just be a weird game thing to keep the stories on track.
Note too that when you kill Cazador, Zombie Astarion will explode like the Spawn do when sacrificed. One player discovered how to stop that from happening and got Zombie Astarion in camp but this seems to be nothing more than an exploit to cause a glitch.
@@meganparrish807Other things that you can do that turn into a terrible ending for him is stop him mid-Ascencion or downright refuse to continue helping him after you gave him the impression that you would during the ritual (to be fair, a lot of people did this thinking he'll just back down from ascending himself)
For both of those, even if Cazador's dead he ends up running away from you and your party for good. His last words to you are very venomous
He's also still got a tadpole and he's out of the Prism's protection so eventually, he gets enthralled by the Absolute anyway...
To each their own, but this is why it disturbs me when people are for ascending him. It is just.. rotting in his trauma forevermore, becoming like Cazador and causing the exact same thing to others that made him want to ascend in the first place. 10/10 cycle of abuse
I did a roll for insight into how he thought about my character after he had turned her and it was so terrible, I restarted to get the old Astarian back. I'm now on my second play through and I am loving me some Gale.
Damn what was it that he thought?
@@meri0312 To be fair, the writing stuck to complete evil and it was spot on. He basically thought, my gal was degrading herself by wanting to be with him. Maybe she wanted to be degraded, which would was fine by him because he only wanted to keep her as a pet. Locked in a cage to do his bidding. Now granted, I was playing Urge, but after that, after my reset, I forced her to try and be good. LOL. This game..
Truly EVIL.
I love psychology and these writers really, really, really....did a fantastic job....too good sometimes. Scary.
Yeah bro it's always so nice going from romancing Astarion to romancing Gale, I know my boy Gale will make me feel better when Astarion is being mean to me 😂😂😂
@@birdsrneat LOL!! 100% I created a Devil Bard because now I just need a cuddle and someone to pet my hair after experiencing that.
*Eats trauma ice cream sprinkled with Astarion tears*
*Recovers and falls in love with Gale. Watches Astarion get jealous*
Oh sweet revenge. The best part, there was an option for her to kick him in the balls...and she did just that. It was strangely therapeutic actually.
Baulder's gate keeps it real. Greatest RPG game, hands down.
🤣🤣🤣
You licked a dead spider. Dead…spider. You licked it. That is a thing that happened.
Astarion to me is a man with great confidence but no self esteem or has any real self worth.
Being called perfect at a time when he was most scared, paranoid and uncertain about his future genuinely had him shook. I don't think Astarion has self loathing, but his story deals with how his whole life he's had to deal with people fawning over his looks and charms. Not him personally.
So to be called perfect actually had him pause and be truly confused. Especially if he goes the Ascension route, AA seems to hate that past Astarion while Spawn Astarion has a more sympathetic view of his former self.
I think one of the lines Spawn Astarion can say during the end-game party summarizes it nicely: he'd been preoccupied with what people had done to him. Ascended Astarion lets those preoccupations consume him. E.g., he was a victim of those with power, so he has to become so powerful he can force others to never victimize him again. In contrast, Spawn Astarion breaks free of that mindset - choosing not to define himself by what was done to him, but by who he is. To only slightly paraphrase, "I spent too long defined by the choices others made for me ... I am me. For better *and* for worse."
So yeah, I can 100% see why AA would loathe his former self. That "weakness" is antithetical to what he has recontextualized his entire life around. Power dynamic and the impact of others is his entire world now; whereas SA understands he was a victim of that dynamic and chooses to break free of it and the associated world view.
@@Sturmensky 100% this! I'm exploring this in a fanfic where I've managed to get spawn and ascended in the same timeline & I'm going to pit them against each other. Right now, spawns terrified of confronting his ascended self, because for him its a confrontation of everything dark that still lives inside him made manifest, whereas ascended wants to confront his spawn self so he can complete the job physically of murdering his 'past attachments and associations'.
@@oldiebutgoodie79 Oh that sounds really neat! I dig the direction you're going - definitely curious how it turns out! Keep me posted, aye?
A thing about healing from trauma is getting over being extremely harsh and critical of yourself. There is a big disconnect between your past and present self when you are dealing with this kind of stuff. Its like the person who was abused was someone entirely different, a pathetic weakling you look down on. But that person is you - your past you- and so you just start loathing yourself. This dynamic is very well included in his character progression. But healing involves being kind to yourself, to your past.
I can recommend the book The Body Keeps The Score which goes pretty deep into that topic.
Oooh, keep me posted!@@oldiebutgoodie79
You know he says to your chracter you will regret leaving me more then anything yet I think he talking more about himself he regrets losing you more then anything
@@magicbacon790 iirc there is or was dialogue that indicates Ascended Astarion misses Tav if they leave him, but he's too proud to let them know
@@Xenolithial Yeah this was datamined. Not in the dialogue, but the dev notes. I may be wrong, but I think someone else went to see if they could retrieve those notes after, only to find them gone.
@@oldiebutgoodie79 that may be it, Ty. Originally I think they had ascended Astarion and Tav having a pretty decent time together iirc but then I guess they figured that was problematic
Tbh he is so insanely upset and sounds on the verge of crying at one point even though he's angry. I would suspect he misses Tav anyway, even if they never confirm ot
I went through the rest of the game with him ascended because I wanted to see what would happen.
I ran through a second play through on the same file and made him nice.
Lesson. Learned.
How do you make him nice? I tried being good and he just kept disapproving, and I had to stick him in party camp, scared he’ll leave
@@robbietox „Made him nice“ means keeping him a spawn.
My goody two-shoes druid has him in the party since act 1, and he’s firmly planted in neutral/positive-neutral approval. His approval would go up if they would just be even slightly mean to people, but they just don’t have it in them. They just want to heeelp.
That said, their wanting to help everyone includes Astarion, meaning there are numerous approval bumps that keep their relationship from going sour. My spore druid just wants to be besties with the undead. =(
ugh i hate that i’m doing this for an evil run. i know he’s bad, but he and evil durge can rip eachother to shreds
1) Astarion literally tells you in act 1 that he‘d prefer to just kill the guy.
2) All full vampires are amoral sociopaths, they literally cannot help it. Vellioth‘s skull in the temple tells you that pretty directly. Cazador‘s time under Vellioth was on par with Astarion‘s under him.
3) If you sacrifice seven THOUSAND souls for this man, you do NOT get to complain.
4) Neither can you claim your character to be good-aligned anymore. You are evil.
That said, my evil Drow Durge had zero regrets. I also had her favorite pet talk to Sceleritas both times that was possible, just to drill it into his head that there’s no way in the nine hells he could ever fully control a Chosen of Bhaal.
Every single thing she did for him, she did by choice. The good, the bad, and the funny.
Sacrificing the spawn is objectively evil and I am by no means an Ascendant Astarion defender. But it’s not too hard to rationalize ascending him. Killing the spawn outright isn’t evil. It’s a complex situation and by killing the spawn now, you can assure no one will become their victims in the future. I never made that choice, but there’s some rationale there. Then there’s Astarion’s siblings. There are only six and them not being under Cazador’s control anymore is a mercy on its own.
These are all reasons Astarion used throughout the game. And while the ritual is inarguably evil, these reasonings become excuses really quick. I think it’s compelling to imagine a Tav without strong morals being persuaded by Astarion: an evil person with the best intentions.
I mean most people who complain are doing so because they don’t like the ending. Like at least half the people who ascended him only did so to see what he’d be like ascended. It’s more of an experiment than active choices with the expectation of an unaligned outcome, so I think it makes sense there are complaints, since it’s mainly from people who just find this to be an unfortunate ending for his character.
I absolutely love this! I'm a spawn fan, but this is unapologetic, and you've done it without any rose coloured glasses on. I applaud you and wish more AA fans did it for these reasons.
Having a super toxic relationship with him and evil Durge was so fun. Like I felt so bad telling him to get his shit together when he was having doubts about the prisoners, but realistic my evil Durge would not care about any of these people. He barely cared about the companions and only because they were useful.
Ascension has no place in a good or neutral playthrough, its messed up and evil and you have to commit. Including children into the pool of 7000 people getting their souls sacrificed is the most obvious hint that should clue anyone in to what's going on.
@@Louves192 Larian really did a fantastic job humanizing the sacrifices.
He’s so fucking spiteful when he ascends. He’s also still lying and cloaking his true feelings.
In the graveyard scene in the spawn ending he admits to not really caring for you when you first met.
In the ascension ending he says something like “oh I’ve been attracted to you since we first met!”
This is just as bad as straight losing the fight to cazador, astarion just becomes him….
I don't remember him saying that after ascending. The only thing I can think of that's close to that is during the Act 1 romance scene where he says, "There you are. I've been waiting. Waiting since the moment I set eyes on you. Waiting to have you".
@@MarinaCorbi It's in his Act 3 romance scene
@@GeeslinsNerdRoom I just looked at every possible dialogue option in his Act 3 romance scene while ascended. He doesn't say anything like that. Is it with a specific character that isn't Tav/Durge?
@MarinaCorbi I don't know about what he says Ascended, but as a spawn with Tav he says he didn't care for you when you first met but he does now.
Neil Newbon, Astarion's VA, actually talked about how, with ascended Astarion, they were going for the idea that his cover was off completely, that he was completely honest and felt no need to pretend anymore. You shouldn't take any singular route as a supreme indicator of what's true because the companions' wants vary depending on the choices you make.
This is why I'll NEVER understand why some Astarion fans think letting him ascend is his HAPPY ending (and they'll scratch and claw and bend over backwards to claim A!Astarion still genuinely loves Tav in spite of any and all evidence presented to them). Letting him ascend is allowing him to literally become Cazador 2.0 (worse even, since he's more powerful than Cazador). This is letting him perpetuate the cycle of abuse to infinity....him staying a spawn is him healing from his abuse and becoming (depending on your playstyle, my Tavs tend to be noble heroic types) a better person. "But he loses the ability to walk in the sun!" Me: This is a fantasy world with literal gods walking around....you don't think Tav, once the mindflayer issue is solved *won't* embark on a new epic quest to find another way for him to walk in the sun *without* having to literally become an evil monster in the process?
Agreed. But for me, why justify sacrificing his hard won, newly emerging humanity, just so he can walk in the sun? In my opinion, one doesn't equate to the other. I love seeing at the party how spawn has accepted his lifestyle. He seems to truly have come to some sort of inner accommodation with being nocturnal. Which again, hints that maybe it was never about walking in the sun in the first place, but all about the freedom to choose for himself what he could do in the dark.
this!! this was my immediate exact thought process when i heard the endings available for him. the very idea of ascending astarion didn’t sit right with me cause it was CAZADOR’S ritual that he would be doing in his stead?? that couldn’t be good. i was like 'i’d rather have him as he is, he already is everything i need & perfect' and then proceeded to plan out the quest immediately following the ending where my tav comes back with a cure while halsin nurses astarion from the burns during that time.
A!Astarion enjoyers have a special kind of mental illness lmao
Spawn Astarion indeed loses the ability to walk in the sun. But he learns how to live with it.
This is a crucial part of a healing process. Traumatic experiences are life-altering. They leave marks that can't be ignored. You can't move on if you don't accept the changes brought by them.
Every other companion has to do it. Karlach has to live with her engine. Lae'Zel has to abandon her dreams of becoming her queen's loyal warrior. Shadowheart has to put up with the loss of decades of her life as well as her memories.
Spawn Astarion stops treating his vampirism as a curse and accepts darkness as a part of him.
Ascended Astarion literally "unmakes what Cazador made him to be". Which also implies erasing him as a person. That's not dealing with trauma.
Ascention isn't a happy ending. It's a tragedy for anyone involved.
And yes, there're plenty ways (in DND at least) to let Spawn Astarion walk in the sun again.
This means that you didn't manage to understand this character. He is not for you. Larian proved that after the Ascention, Astarion returned to his former self, like he was BEFORE he was turned into a vampire. If you like miserable slave spawn Astarion I pitty you.
I wish all ascended astarion girlies some good therapy
He starts off the game putting a knife to tav's throat, he tries non-consensually to drain their blood, then later resorts to seducing and manipulating their feelings soley for his protection. And that's not counting the things he does to others. I love him, but nobody who romances him has high ground lol you're not any better than people who chose a different route.
There’s no need for that! Look I’m an SA fan too but AA girls are entitled to their preferences. And let’s be honest… we’re all obsessed with a pixel man. We ALL need therapy lol
@@SkycometAnimeVampThank you! People get way too personal about this stuff. I think a lot of people who prefer SA misunderstand the appeal of AA and think we're just deluding ourselves about him. And yeah tbh, we all need therapy lmao
The thing that sickens and breaks me about Ascended Astarion... is that WE made him into another Cazador.
The thing that was so incredibly admirable about Astarion, is despite all the torture Cazador put him through, Astarion never broke. Not TRULY, anyway, and certainly not in the way Cazador wanted. Astarion continued to still be defiant, in his small, little ways. Sure, he finally did as he was told, but that didn't mean he stopped fighting his little battles, didn't mean he wouldn't take advantage of the specks of freedom he managed to find or was granted. A truly broken Slave wouldn't have run his mouth to everyone, in fear of enraging his master. A truly broken slave wouldn't have continued defying his master.
In Cazador's journal, just before we meet him, he's OBSESSED with Astarion, nearly all the entries are of him and how he keeps doing something that makes Cazador want to punish him. Because he's never broke to the degree Cazador wanted him to. And its even more compounded by the fact tgat the first REAL chance Astarion gets tge chance to run away, and be free of Cazador... he takes it, without hesitation. A TRULY broken slave would have been terrified out of their mind, and would have been running to return to their master's side, before their punishment gets too severe. But Astarion didn't. He HATES Cazador. And despite the fact that Cazador fundementally changed Astarion forever... he. Never. Broke.
Until we Ascend him. Every cruel word Cazador says to Astarion, A!Astarion seems to echo back at us. The way that Cazador carried and presented himself, A!Astarion mirrors that. And I know for damn sure that A!Astarion is going to treat his spawns nearly exactly as Cazador treated them. Astarion spent so long trying to get away from his master, but at the last moment, he finally broke, and now his every thought, action, and moditive is influenced with everything Cazador had done, and finally, finally erased the person that Astarion used to be.
In the final moments, when Astarion Adcends, Cazador wins, despite the fact that he's dead now. Because of US, Cazador finally got what he wanted, and broke Astarion.
This is a really good summary.
So beautifully put, I really commend you. That defiance and desperation to be free is so integral to him.
I hate the idea that he would move into the castle where he was tortured and abused for so long, after centuries of wishing to escape.
@@PenguinFondue And keep Rhapsody, the blade used to carve those runes on him in the first place. And Woe, used to trap him with Infernal magic. I've read where others that have been traumatised themselves claim that there is some sort of reclamation of power by claiming objects used to have inflicted pain in the first place ... vaild, as everyone is individual and deals with healing from trauma in their own way. However, AA isn't any longer healing from his trauma. He has become stagnant and unable to in that regard due to becoming a full vampire and no longer having the emotions necessary to process that healing. So Rhapsody and Woe really can't be seen as reclaiming lost power to signify the healing process; they are now symbols of power tied to viscous acts of violence. Which relates right back to dnd vampires and their obsession with collecting instruments of torture.
Thank you for this beautiful comment.
That's why I love Astarion's community. We care so much for the sweet pixel man.
That’s an excellent take
Yuck! I would’ve reloaded too after hearing that. 😭
I like that last response, looks like you shook him to his core
You never go full Lestat.
Did an evil durge playthrough where I ascended and romanced him... Safe to say that it wasn't rewarding, got me to hate him and will never make me ascend him ever again. 😀 I currently have to heal my heart and stay away from him by romancing Gale and my lord, that was the best decision I could've made
Feel like the most poetic way to remedy that as an evil durge would be to take control of the Netherbrain (either in Bhaal's name or your own) and enthrall him to *your* will, but that could just be the more twisted side of me showing. *Shrugs*
You can control the brain and make him a thrall tho, most rewarding ending.
I want to ascend him once to get the alternate romance scene but I couldn't bring myself to do it just yet
This ending makes me soo sad😢
The first playthrough that I let Astarion ascend was also the first time I fully romanced him. The first time I kissed him post ascension he made me get on my knees first. I had to turn the game off.
I only let him ascend once and it was on an evil playthrough, so my evil Bard Durge was more than happy to rule the world with him…. Tho it made me so sad because i love my soft baby spawn 🥲
You like to see when he suffers. Just admit it.
I'll never understand why there's a huge debate about AA and Spawn Astarion they both literally say what's going on. I've seen so many tumblr essays on the subject when AA and Spawn just flat out say what the ritual has or hasn't done to them in their dialogue. It's just soo simply there's no debate
Ascended Astarion appeals to some people. But I just can’t bring myself to let him ascend even though I’m curious,
Because from everything I’ve seen, Ascended Astarion is not the real Astarion. He’s a twisted version that has been stripped of everything that made me love him in the first place: goofiness, joy, moments of authenticity, vulnerability, and hope
Ascended Astarion expecting me to put up with any of this after the way Gortash talks to Durge? He's so gd audacious. Absolutely delulu.
@@damien678 select him and have him talk to Sceleritas before entering Bhaal‘s temple. If you accepted Bhaal, repeat this back at camp. It’s hilarious. =)
The real ascension was the spawn we made along the way
If you don't take it too serious he is quite funny tho. Not the kind of funny he was before, more like in an unhinged psycho way. Like evil Lae'zel and evil Shadowheart. You just stand back and watch their insane facial expressions and the weird yapping coming out of their mouths. They never stop talking. A!Astarion fits in really well with those two.
I really recommend turning the companions evil for one run and see that train wreck unfold right before your eyes. It was a trip on my evil Durge playthrough with the polyamory mod.
AA and durge would make a good tragic toxic love story (like Sweeney Todd) possibly with a good ending being a m*urder- s*ui*cide.
Instantly thought of Hannibal Season 3. Astarion as Wyll being shaped by durge as Hannibal ending in tragedy. Chefs kiss.
I let him ascend in one playthrough to see what happens. After the very first conversation he came off as a soulless monster with no resemblance of his former self. I reloaded and never did that again. He actually becomes a better person and learns how to be happy if he doesn't ascend which is lovely to see.
I became Bhaal's chosen as Durge. when this triggered, it didn't exactly happen the same, instead we talked about how we both want to rule the world and it would be a race to see who could do it first.
Sorry bud, you lost.
On my first playthrough, I didn't know what he was like when you ascend him so I let him do it, and I just immediately reverted back to my old save after one dialogue with him. Literally talked to him one time and went "wow I'm not dealing with this" lmao
I hated Ascended Astarion. Ascended him in my second playthrough as Durge and gawds he made her feel like crud. Her ending was very sad, and very lonely. I'd say what happened but I don't want to spoil it for anyone who wants to play Dark Urge. Needless to say I'll never Ascend him again.
Literally just Preminger from Barbie princess and the pauper
I'm on an evil durge run and I will ascend him soon :(
I personally don't want him to become like this (I had the spawn ending 2 times before ♡) but this time I will only do it for role play purposes.
If I truly can't take him being like this instead of being happy and free, I will probably do some mental gymnastics to justify why my lolth sworn drow durge would encourage him to not go through with the ritual :D
Good luck with that run! I ended up making a new character that won't romance him. Maybe I'll let him ascend on that run. It's just too sad to ascend him when he's romanced.
This is something I wrote up in a few minutes you can use to justify why Astarion shouldn't ascend in an evil drow durge playthrough. Hope it helps:
"It is weak and pathetic to rely on the backstabbing of devils. They cannot bargain their way into winning an endless war against themselves -- selling one's soul only proves they lack the true ambition needed to obtain what they desire. If someone were to perform this 'Rite of Profane Ascension,' all they would win is a new limit to what they are capable of, and dozens of new vices that dulls the mind and are hidden deep within the fine lines of that contract. It is better not to ascend, but rather to hone one's skill and take what is rightfully yours, no matter how long it takes."
(I basically thought, "what would Minthara say about this if she were against it?")
@@shadowdroid776 Thanks that's actually helpful 😁
My Durge is also pretty anti "Devil-Dependency" so that approach would work really well :D
@@celin99 You could have your Durge get lost in the heat of battle and kill one of the other spawn. I suggest Petras. No need for excuses, just sheer bloodlust.
As a fan of evil characters, i loved this ending
I like his character either way. I Ascended him my first run and this current one I challenged myself to make all good choices and see if I still could. So far Act 2 after the Araj exchange (defending him) we had the conversation where he confesses to sleeping with you for protection. It's a totally different tone from the one where he blurts it out to you because you have to get him to tell you. He sounds like a jerk at first saying it was easy to seduce you and then he started to legitimately feel for you. When he said it in that way I almost friend zoned him which he approves of...but I told him I cared and that we can hold off on sleeping together until he was ready. Which he's okay with. I don't know why some believe you can't be a good aligned PC and romance him. He will call you on the Hero behavior but it doesn't mean he disapproves of every good choice you make. Just as long as you respect his body autonomy (especially after the Araj conversation DO NOT ask him for sex as a reward for taking up for him) and don't continuously pick sexual options when talking to him. Call him on it. When he approaches you the second time at camp to sleep with him and he starts flattering you, you can tell him maybe another time. He'll still like you. I think the most difficult thing for me when romancing him is STAYING AWAY FROM HALSIN. 😩
Yeah no way will i ever let Astarion become Asstarion ever.
I wish all A!Astarion girlies a good Please Get Some Therapy 🙏
I’m a spawn fan and I don’t get the hatred towards A! Astarion fans?
We came here to simp for a pretty sexy elf, what’s the difference whether he’s evil or not?
@@himalayansalt32 Because I don't think all of us do come here to simp over a pretty sexy elf. I think a lot of us are drawn to his character development, or story arc. Or him as a character rather than pretty pixels. It matters when you care for a character. And you're allowed to care for a made up story character, people have been doing it since the first story ever came about. It's why people are invested in stories in the first place, because they come to love and care about the characters, and, hopefully, would want to see the best for them, just like they would people they care about in real life.
@@oldiebutgoodie79 If that were true, no one would ever cheer for a villain. AA is a villain, he is no different from Ganondorf, Sauron, Thanos, or GlaDOS.
There’s no need for that! You’re being an A hole. I’m an SA fan too but AA fans are entitled to their preference.
Besides… we’re all in love with a pixel man. I think we could all use therapy 😂
@@himalayansalt32exactly. There’s no need for either side to hate the other.
He Ascended on my second playthrough (that Tav and Astarion are just good friends) and it’s not as bad as I was expecting so far. I dunno if I screwed something up or haven’t gotten far enough in Act 3 to see him change yet, or if he only acts like a dick if you romanced him, but…he seems mostly the same? And he has cool new powers. I don’t regret it
He only acts like a dick if you romance him. I let him ascend through both my playthroughs cuz it feels like the better option. Especially given that after the parasite is gone, he'll still be stuck as a vampire spawn. So it's not really freedom.
@@MultiBlack17 ? How is it not freedom by still just being a spawn? He's free of the worm, free of Cazador, and free of being a full vampire and a slave to the dark desires. He's free to make his own choices, live how he want's to live, hang around whoever he wants to hang around with, form relationships with whoever he wants to form them with.
I feel like my ending would have made a lot of people upset but I'm happy with it. Ascended Astarion, godified Gale, and became an individual minded Ilithid with two very powerful friends lol. I mean, I got Karlach and Wyll to be a hellfighting power couple and romanced a redeemed Shadowheart, so the other half of the party got their best endings so like that's half the party doing good.
On my first run as chaotic evil dark urge I let him ascend (cause I thought it's good match and good ending for them), do not regret at all - that really fit my idea about how their relationship will work, all except scared kisses, lol, my durge certainly would smile not freak out 😂 now doing good redemption durge and will finally see how he is in spawn mode 😅
I only intend to ascend him for my evil Durge play, I really just do not like Ascended Astarion.
as soon as they changed the kiss I quit my second run... almost done with 3rd act and I just couldn't. AA WITH DURGE deserved a power couple ending where he respected durge's power
that’s just not how true vampires work. vampires rule alone, never alongside anyone else.
Letting them reach their "salvation" are nearly always the worst result.
SPOILERS AHEAD Astarion literally loses himself, gale completely abandons every he loves to become a god, lazel gets consumed by her "queen", shadowheart is forced to kill her parents and forget about it. Well i guess only these 4 get bad ending if you do what they want but it makes the good endings that much better
I did the very same. :( I had hoped he would be nicer...
Blaming this personality change on his ascension is kind of like blaming someone's temper and the mean things they have to say around them on being drunk. It was always in there, it's just amplified. They think and feel it sober, they just have the sense not to say it. I love him, but he was a selfish, manipulative tw@t as a spawn. He just feels he can say whatever he wants out loud now that he's ascended because he's not hiding behind the biggest bully on the playground anymore. He IS the biggest bully on the playground. Looking at the full list of approval options (I went digging for as many points as possible in act 1 to try and find a workaround to sleeping with him and still romancing him) this is clearly the same man speaking freely because he can back it up. There's a line where he similarly threatens you as King of the Spawn if you break up with him.
I, personally, ascend him (Hush, paladins!) for a multitude of reasons, but mostly revenge against Cazador and the opportunity to have the full Dracula experience of being turned into a bride. (Screw birds of a feather, we're bats of a leather!) Until Larian gives us the option of Astarion sucking Cazador flat like a Caprisun and becoming a true vampire without ascending I'm probably going to keep doing it. I tried biting him during his fight but you get hit with "Cannot target the undead." You can bite Astarion, though. He has nothing to say besides the usual lines about being smacked. Thought for sure he'd say something about getting more than one drop of his blood.
Someone said that when you become a true vampire your alignment changes to evil, so you kinda can blame it on it
@@theprogamer5910 Remembering all the murdering, thieving, torturing, threatening, deceiving, and mocking I did to get his approval up as high as possible, I don't think the needle moved very much.
I love him anyway 😻 He was abandoned, he's upset. It feels like he's going to cry after this conversation 😁
Girl I hope you have money for therapy.
@@darksorceressharuko And I hope that your mother will still have time to teach you that it is impolite to write advice to strangers that you were not asked for😏
@yuttasparrow0private It's a joke not a dick don't take it so hard 💀
That’s fine.
@@darksorceressharukowe all need therapy lol
What people don't realize is that Astarion is evil. Has been the entire game. He's charming, which is what vampires do to use people. They think he's the way he is because he doesn't have power, that's he's scared, etc. Yes, he doesn't have power and he's scared, but he's still EVIL. Its all fake, and the moment he gets power he doesn't need you anymore.
Lol true this is what astarion simps cannot understand cause they are still drunk on twilight shit. This is why I simply bring him along for araj’s potion…the dude is so evil he disapproves of things minthara would approve of. At least she is self-aware. He is not. I feel no guilt doing that to him…love gaslighting that shit and emotionally manipulating him his approval was still on exceptional bahahaha…i plan to ascend him then betray him to the gur.
If my Tav loves him enough he’ll love me again! 💕 I just know!
Troll 🤣🤣🤣
If you don't like Ascended Astarion, choose Wyll or Gale. They will take a good care of your Tav/Durge. Spawn lovers just love to see how their "sexy" vampire elf suffers. Losers.
Or you could just give your opinions without being an @ss to people that disagree?
Weird
@@MaryJay1988 That‘s a whole lotta projection you got going on there…
Either way he's a self absorbed prick not worth to be obsessed with