I LOVE Paywalls. Thanks Intel! - ECC Support on Alder Lake
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
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12th Gen Intel supports ECC memory, but you're going to need a specific chipset to utilize it. A chipset only available on expensive workstation motherboards that lack other features you might want... So just how badly do you need Error Correction Code memory in the first place?
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CHAPTERS
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0:00 Intro
1:25 12th Gen Intel
2:24 Pentium G6951
5:04 ECC Today
7:44 Thanks Intel
9:00 Business Time
10:25 AMD
11:28 Conclusion
12:39 Outro - Наука та технологія
There's another major problem to this locking strategy that was not mentioned by Linus. We spent $60,000 on a Keysight network analyzer and years later we wanted to enable one of the software locked features. The instrument works just fine, but Keysight wouldn't take our money because it was considered obsolete. So there is this "eventual locked feature set problem" to this sales paradigm.
That when hackers come handy ;)
Let me guess, it's not considered obsolete in their latest models?
@@Beakerbite the model was obsolete, not the feature
Oh wow thats annoying, I thought Keysight were some of the "good guys" like AMD.
@@covodex516 There is no good guy in any business. Only profit. And yes, it's also the case with LTT and their merchandise in the future. It's a rule and fact at this point.
The Fact you have to pay a subscription to use standard equipment in your own car or item that you bought is just insane and no it's not okay it's like buying your house and not being able to access to 2nd floor because you need to pay more to access the rest of your house it's just stupid and crazy
Yeah you already paid for the damn thing
Yea. I wont be buying any of that shit
Exactly. People who defend this sorta thing are absolute morons. If a feature is physically there and working, I shouldn't need to pay extra to use it.
Thank Tesla and the whole farming industry.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Subscription services are the worst thing to appear this century. Companies were like “your money isn’t good enough, we want MORE!” It’s like invasive computing, but worse. (Or was it called invasive IOT?)
It's all start with digital music and video movies.
@@zackwalkman8574 thank you music industry, transforming one of the most basic art making into shallow money swallowing cun'ts.
Seriously, woke up today to see I had a charge from Google. Apparently Google either automatically applied for or I accidently agreed to Google 1 which I don't remember ever applying for. When I looked at what it is it didn't even make sense. $2 a month for 100GBs of cloud storage. For only like $12 you could get a 100GB SD card. And unlike that subscription, I won't have to keep paying more after a year.
@@Skylancer727 That's why they don't have a credit card on file for me. In fact, any company that does payments the way they do I refuse to give a CC number to. It's far too easy for them to just rip you off and claim whatever they want and you'll never get your money back.
@@anon_y_mousse man I wish graphene OS was available on devices other than Google pixel. Would totally be using it right now.
I've always hated the concept of having to pay extra for features that already exists in the hardware you already purchased. I'm a network engineer so I deal with Cisco a lot, and Cisco is one of the worst offenders when it comes to that kind of business practice. It drives me crazy sometimes.
Same that's why I hate cisco
Imagine paying a higher price for the all the items when you don't need the extra features.
Imagine when Linus learns digital oscilloscopes have their sampling rates artificially limited by software.
Indeed, and it seems most have been cracked by now. Most legit businesses will likely pay for the proper license, but home users who could never afford the full license will likely utilize the cracked codes.
Proud owner of an easily hackable Rigol. Power to the consumers!
Did exactly that on my siglent scope, you can uprate it to 200mhz and unlock the full capture length, you can do the same thing on rigol digital power supplies and loads to trick the device into thinking it's an "A" model and in turn unlocking control over IP, extra features and i recall on both the PSU and the load you can get an extra decimal place on voltage readings/settings, and finally a colour gui on the psu (idk why they paywalled this)
@@ssl3546 That just sounds like mega companies have found an easy way to make it easier to get scammed than avoid being scammed. How does that get a pass?
@@AndrewStrydomBRP I've got Rigol scope and the power supply. I bought my scope during a promo which gave me the full unlock code for it, I haven't unlocked the power supply yet but it has been in the back of my head for a while.. The power supply has been great, the scope works but compared to the bazillian dollar scopes at work, all that extra money really does buy something nicer. ;)
This is all one aspect of bigger industry problems: the push toward subscriptions for literally everything, and certain industry leaders inventing new ways to squeeze their customers and the rest of the industry following. And those things are of course part of the even bigger picture - chasing after infinite growth.
That's not a problem of industry, that's a problem of people being brainwashed into buying shitty products. The people who are susceptible to such techniques do not deserve to be alive.
You are correct, It's indicative of late stage market domination, no beginner company would survive with this kind of model.
Subscription model is how a Monopoly continues its market dominance. They don't want you to own anything , and millennials don't want the responsibility of ownership.
The way I see it, only open source software/hardware can fight with those practices (unless a government actually steps in and stops those practices, which is unlikely).
And while it's probably impossible for amateurs to manufacture microelectronics, stuff like 2d printers/scanners and cars should be _in theory_ hackable (even if the safety of DIYing/hacking cars is dubious).
rent-seeking is evil and it's going to be everywhere forever unless we actually fight back against it
Yeah, the Professional software company I work for got bought by an american private equity fund and now we are all under pressure to pull subscription services out of our arses and turn already existing features into subscriptions, because they want to sell us in 5 years with a big profit.
so they told us.
I hate it. It doesn't make sense for most things and I don't want that to become the new normal.
Can't wait to see cracks for hardware paywalls.
Has been around for a while. I remember updating an Nvidia graphics card by flashing it with a bios from a higher end card, because at the time the only difference between consumer and pro models were the BIOS.
4 months late but you can already do that with tesla heated seats. People have already figured out a way around it.
@@endex2k8 Noice!
It already happened with the old nForce ultra/sli chipsets. You could convert an nForce ultra chipset board into an nForce SLI chipset board by simply jumping two solder pads on the chipset. Now it reports and functions just like the SLI chipset because it already was, it was just disabled on the ultra chipset motherboards by not jumping these two pads
The i486SX was a DX with the math coprocessor deactivated by different PGA. You could plug a i487 coprocessor into the SX board and get that functionality. The 487 was also a DX chip. So intel made you pay for 2 DX chips if you opted for the upgrade route instead of buying the DX chip from the start. So it’s not the first time intel did that, the 486 came out in 1989…
I am pretty sure my 486sx example does have a smaller die than my 486dx examples. Did not "delid" but I recall that the brass case on the underside did not cover the whole area on the 486SX.
My i486sx33 is labeled on the bottom side:
92496093AA
MALAY
BP 304
It is possible that other examples are just cut-down DX chips as you describe.
Louis Rossman talks about what Tesla is doing a lot and he made a good point. Even if you were okay with the fact that you had to pay to unlock features like heated seats, the manufacturer is still putting them in adding to the weight of you car and reducing your potential mileage and you have to essentially pay to not have dead weight in your car
He was somewhat indifferent to heated seats, but he really disliked the hundreds of pounds of lithium batteries that are dead weight unless you pay to unlock them.
if it is there and deactivated i would just snip the wires and run a manual controller lol
@@eclipsegst9419 Same. I would just find the switch and replace it with a mechanical one.
If it's in the car, you still pay for it, though. No way they will forgo grabbing your money and have the "rich" compensate for the others.
How much more expensive is every car because of the extra hardware for the predatory Sirius XM service?
My first build was an unlocked AMD 3 core. Loved that free 4th core and overclocked to perform like something three times the price.
I did the same thing back in 2009 with the AMD Phenom II X3 720. My frames increased on the first Crysis.
@@chrits3396 I had a phenom II x2 550 dual that was a stable quad core for me
@@wasdawasda3849 Same for me. The system is still running today.
250 USD dollars for a backpack and has the balls to talk about anything related to money
@@caralosmendezgomez9048 "USD dollar" good job
People have become ok with renting things and having multiple subscriptions running at the same time. This is the best that could have ever happened to larger companies as they'd rather sell their products but still effectively own their products and do with them as they wish.
Yep. Remember when you used to buy Microsoft office?
I remember taking a silver pen and rejoining cut lines on down graded AMD chips and getting more. Fun old times!
I mean at least AMD did that for a legitimate reason- it failed their internal QC testing. Intel just lock stuff for no reason other than greed.
Just wanted to say how much I respect - despite all the partnerships you do with Intel (sponsored videos, including the $5,000 extreme intel upgrade, and being given access to otherwise restricted areas to make awesome videos about the chip-making process for your audience) - you still have the balls to call the company out when its practice in some area is, shall we say, less than consumer friendly. This is exactly why we trust videos from this channel. Thank you, LMG. Sincerely, everyone.
I was thinking the exact same thing
"Trust me bro"
I mean, imagine the publicity he would get if Intel dumped him for calling them out.
he probably waited for the whole extreme upgrade deal/contract/whatever to end first before publishing this video
Tbh the credit should go to Intel a bit here.
Nvidia shuts down access the second you badmouth them, Intel sees LMG mocking them and Intel STILL has the balls to continue working with them as partners.
A world where you are paying for such petty services(something as little as heating your seats) is a world I do not wish to be in. The fact there are people out there ok with it is also scary.
You can configure heated seats on BMWs like on any other car, it's just that if they're not configured you can enable them in software later, either by paying BMW however much money for a subscription or 1 time, or by going to some shady guy who's gonna modify the software and unlock them for $50, $30 if you're a friend.
Have you ever heard of World Economic Forum's motto of ' you will own nothing and you will be happy'? Linus' own prime minister is also a vocal supporter of this movement.
@@stuartfury3390 I hope the fuck not :/
@@stuartfury3390 if not already, but in linus' standpoint i'd unserstand if he doesn't say much via social media or youtube because of his position as a content creator and might be better off not saying anything in the hopes to keep some parts of his community splitting. There's a chance that might not happen but many creators will not talk about politics if not needed to keep from crating division in his community.
You’re not paying for the service. The hardware has a cost. The paywall is for that added cost of manufacturing. It just gives people the choice of whether they want to use it and pay for that cost. From a user side it is no different from regular options packages except that it reduces production costs by not requiring modifications to the assembly line and it allows for the ability to change your mind later. Case in point: I live in a desert. I have absolutely zero need for heated seats and wouldn’t pay for them. With the standard model I could pay less and simply never have the option later. If I were to move back home to Ohio, I wouldn’t have the option for heated seats at all. With the Tesla Model of production (I hate that I’m siding with Musk), I can get the product I want without being forced to pay for heated seats but people who want that feature can have it if they want and the manufacturer has less production costs than they would by producing two different lines. If anyone is getting shafted it’d be the people paying for the feature as they’re the ones paying to put it into every vehicle regardless of whether it will be used (unless the added cost is
6:45 I’m assuming this was just a mistake, but I’m sure we’d all appreciate it if you guys were consistent with the order of the items on the graph so we didn’t have to keep looking back and forth between the data and the memory they correspond to
Purposefully obscuring the information presented is a way to misinform people.
The big issue is that regardless if used or not, you are still paying the materials cost. They aren’t giving a discount on the materials cost just because it’s not getting used. They are actually getting paid twice for one feature!
Naturally. After all, they have to think about what happens if some government decides that it's illegal to lock certain features behind a paywall. Like those automatic high beam lights, which sound like a safety feature.
they made the hardware and spent the same money and time to do so rather or not you chose to use it the act of charging to unlock it is just like paying to use something you already own if you own an item with an expected life span and are responsible to maintain fix and repair that item then you should not be paying a monthly fee to use it if all the hardware is fully functional while be restricted due to a pay wall they are at best selling the item more then once a company should expect once an item is sold their profit on said item is over now they can sell physical addons that expand the physical hardware you want more ram in your PC you have to buy it you want a faster CPU you buy but imagine having to pay for 128 GB of ram and only getting to use 8 GB unless you pay a second time because we all know if they installed it you payed for it
@@tomsims7868 Punctuation, have you heard of it?
@@flameshana9 That costs extra
@@flameshana9 Maybe the punctuation is already contained in the comment, but you have to pay to make it visible.
They should just have it unlocked by default, and then if a user wants the features, they just have to activate it in the bios.
nah man. you're making too much sense.
But then they can't sell you the EXACT same product a year down the line at an upscale cost.
Nor could they charge you extra to unlock these features.
I mean, how else are they supposed to take your money, provide a decent product? Pshh, that won't make them money. It only has been doing that for the past few hundred years or so.
And sell single-use codes for accessing BIOS ...
Then they cant fleece you, who wants to not be fleeced by Intel?
It's worse with tech, as you can't really print and solder your own board of that complexity at home , but for things like car add ons and replacing consumables/repairing components, the big barrier is practical skills not being taught by default.
If you can plug in a phone charger and build flat pack, someone could easily repair most home appliances by accessing and replacing modules/conponents, but people take the convenience fee of having a repair tech sent out or replacing it entirely.
"Repurposing their old gaming machine for a storage server down the line, reduction in ewaste"
Exactly what I do, and it has started to be such a critical part of my computer's lifespan that it does affect my new purchase decisions.
I specifically chose Threadripper OVER an AM4 system to have option for more memory (More slots) and more PCI-E lanes for controller cards.
It just makes sense for me rather than buying and building a dedicated server, which did send my X58 into server duty to retire my old socket 775 that is now in the "Boneyard"
But my "Boneyard" doesn't mean it is ewaste, the machines leave the "boneyard" after a while to serve as either retro gaming machines, or spare parts... Only ewaste generation is broken parts, and that comes at the end of their lifespan!
The way I see it, is if it doesn't have SATA connections on the motherboard or is LGA775 socket, it's automatically junked!!! These still run great with Linux!!! BTW, what retro gaming distro do you load?🤔
Depending on how big your boneyard is, you might be a tech hoarder
But there is no calling more noble than a tech hoarder ;)
Just recently saved a 2016 i7 system someone was about to toss to e-waste, going to make a mighty little multi-perpous storage/backup/game hosting server with that thing, after I swap the crappy Dell power supply and hoard a pile of Harddrives, might even fit it with my old GPU, just in case, it even still had 16 gigs of RAM in it, I question the sanity of the people chucking it...
Also building a Athlon 64, Windows XP Era, desktop (which will dual boot Linux, much like my main desktop) with some old parts I got from a family friend years ago, turned out they had a Asrock Dual Sata 939 socket board that has AGP, PCI, AND PCI-E slots, plus Sata, IDE, and floppy ports add in a "BFG TECH GEFORCE 6800 GT OC", a whopping 4 gigs of Ram (max limit of the board) and I can have all manner of retro fun with that thing, especially since I can install a real floppy drive to read the disks from my Sony Mavica MVC-FD75 floppy disk camera (it's weirdly fun using this 20 year old thing, seriously).
And I seem to have stumbled across a Commodore 1541 5.25" floppy drive for the Commodore 64, so now I might need to hunt down a C64, C128, (or one of the newer clone kits) or wait until the 8 Bit Guy's team finishes the Commander X16 (or both, I might have a problem) to complete my collection (he says, before the list gets longer...)
@@UNSCPILOT I think there's someone out there that rolled an "XP Linux" distro if my memory serves me correctly!!! Regarding 3.5" floppy drives, the only type I've used recently are the USB connected type & the last time I remember using one was for a BIOS update/upgrade!!!
And for me, broken PC parts become a source of raw components for fixing other things or building new projects.
I still remember being delighted to find by Athlon 445 unlocked instantly and flawlessly in to being a Phenom B45. 33% more cores just by changing a BIOS setting.
I bought a phenom II x3 and turned it into a b45. I was happy for that at the time. That ran (passed down to a friend) for like 7 years of gaming. My 2500k I purchased after that is still being used 3rd hand by my friend I play apex legends with today. He needs an upgrade bad but gets 60+fps in apex with a gtx1660 at 1080p.
Here is the thing.
if it was a 1 time payment, it's all cool.
But the way things are going, it's very likely that features in products will become services you have to pay for the time you want to use em.
Like with the heated seats you mentioned before.
I love Paywalls! they are great! I love reading through a 1/4 of an article, then having to pay a subscription fee to read the rest of it.
Whoever first thought of this life changing feature deserves a nobel prize.
I use the "12ft Ladder" website for this and/or the "disable scripts" feature in my browser often...
I use the feautre called "if I see a f*cking paywall on an article, I quit and blacklist the website so i don't find it later again ;D".
Made my life on internet easier.
F12 -> disable javascript stops a large amount of these
There is a handy 'bypass paywall' extension for chrome
@@Ssecave Often times there are a load of articles written on the same topic. Articles that don't have a pay wall. So any time there is a pay wall on a single article I'm interested in, I just google the title and find like 10 others on the same thing. Capitalism at its finest.
This explains why back in 2006, when I was building my first budget PC, Ebay sellers were selling a bunch of ddr2 eec memory with "AMD ONLY" in the description. I bought 2x1gb ddr2 eec for cheap, ran Athlon 64, and had a Gigabyte motherboard. Was able to play The Sims 2 no problem.
This reminds me of the old dell my brother and I had. It started it's life with 0.25gb of DDR ram. Yes, a quarter gb stick. We managed to get our hands on a 0.5gb stick from the school computers bringing our total to a blazing 0.75gb. It ran runescape and flash games like a champ after that.
Also, DDR3 had been out for a couple years at this point and the school was still using those computers. Ever wonder why school computers ran like crap?
@@chuckemtrad8541 Was it labelled as 0.25gb or was it labelled 256mb?
@@anon_y_mousse 256mb and 512mb. Some of the school computers had 1024mb sticks in them, but most were 512mb or two 512mb sticks.
My parents had their own computer that had 6gb of mismatched ddr2 ram from Office Depot or similar store, so I remember it in gb.
@@chuckemtrad8541 We all have our quirks, I guess.
@@anon_y_mousse Yeah like that amount is so low that he has to use decimal points 🤣
Be aware, the on-die DDR5 ECC is not the same as regular ECC. There will actually be ECC and non-ECC versions of DDR5 as well with extra bits per channel. The on-die ECC may stop errors on each chip, but they will NOT protect against errors in-transit, which traditional ECC does protect against. Traditional ECC is still important with DDR5.
Check out Dr. Ian Cutress' video titled "Why DDR5 does NOT have ECC (by default)" for a good explain on what it really is and why it isn't really ECC like we know it.
ECC can even help overclockers. Since it can tell if memory is erroring out, you will get a heads-up when you pushed the memory too far beyond the redline and ECC error rate goes up. Also it just makes all computers more reliable.
makes sense to make cost higher for optional features, but the problem is that the base cost already cover everything and optional features become much more expensive than if they were included already in the base product
Not necessarily. The base cost may not cover everything that is required to get the feature fully functional
No it costs more to have 2 different parts and pull a car of the line to put in a different one then to just stock one but the part is still more expensive so part of the profit of selling the feature go’s to keeping the base price the same
One of the reasons why I love that AMD came back
wow, intel is so hated
@@arthurgamerpro6585 i mean it makes sense after this; i am a team blue person aswell but they just don't want to (or can't but im not sure about it) ''innovate'' to properly compete with amd, and that leads to more and more people to lose hope in them
Well, I really like those DLC’s
Amd runs a bit hotter and is slowly getting a bit pricier but I swear every time I think about buying an Intel processor or something I almost always suddenly start seeing some drama online about how Intel keeps trying to overstep their boundaries and over price products or limit the products in weird draconian ways.
@@johnsalamii i am also intel team (my pc is old amd) but i prefer amd.
Part of the Tri-core thing could come down to a bad batch of quad cores, where one of the cores wasn't up to snuff (maybe big issues, maybe tiny ones that would only come up once a year) so instead of scrapping it all, they made it so that they sold them at a discount.
Or a 'have 4, pick 3 best' where they weren't problematic, but it is easier to guarantee speeds if you always make 4 and allow only 3.
The first thing is exactly what they did and exactly what Linus meant by binning. The CPUs go through an automated testing stage that checks for defects. The 3 core CPUs tested to have only 3 working cores out of the 4 that were actually created but due the way testing works it's possible but, certainly not guaranteed that the 4th core would still work in most situations. The CPUs that tested to have all 4 cores working were sold as a higher end quad core CPU. Intel, AMD, and NVidia all use these binning processes since it's inevitable that some cores or memory modules will fail (the bigger the chip the more likely it is). I think it was Intel that first figured out they could sell processors with disabled cores at a lower price so they don't lose as much money of these inevitable defects which is actually quite beneficial to consumers as well since it keeps the cost down.
I have adopted an instance of avoiding brands that adopt anti-consumer pratictices like that, at least as far as I can, Intel, Sony (Playstation division), Nintendo, and now Nvidia are all on my blacklist, at least until they prove to have changed their practices.
People should stop buying from brands that have those kind of practices, maybe hurting their pockets would make them stop that kind of BS.
So do you just not play video games now or
@@tacticalblank8045 There is Xbox, AMD and much other options as good as...
@@zartulAMD isn't any better than intel when it comes to anti consumer practices.
Do you use Windows?
And then there's Nvidia's infamous "Error 43", because the drivers locked out consumer GPUs from virtualization.
I believe they FINALLY did away with that with RTX3000.
This is one of the best written LTTs in a while. Good job to those involved in the making of this.
Ltt is great
Nicholas plouffe was the writer for this
Well apart from the part about uk cars being speed limited which is total BS, no idea where they got that from.
This reminds me of the tesla batteries. As it turns out, the long and "regular" range batteries are the same physically. It's just a software lock.
There was some guy recently who swapped for a "long range" battery, and once Tesla detected it, a week later the company "corrected" it by locking it to the original short range the guy bought the car with.
I don't buy a product for the software beyond making it work. I'd almost rather have to program some of the basics myself, not like I've needed a car with distracting "safety features" flashing in my face.
The last thing I want is to look down in the 1 second I can dodge with.
To be fair, there are other examples for that: I know some Mazda models with identical engines, but different software, which results in less or more power.
I remember IBM P590s came with all the ram upgrades installed, you had to pay extra to unlock it if you wanted to upgrade.
It's IBM and Oracle level crap. That kind of short sighted arrogance ruined the reputation of both companies, and Intel is also suffering because of it. Its not that Microsoft, AMD and again Microsoft were the best option for their domain, but they were competitive and you can do business with them without continuously ending up in court and having to hire IP lawyers all the time.
actually non-ECC boards don't necessarily have the extra bus width that ECC requires
so that's why ECC memory works as non-ECC in some boards but refuse to even boot in others?
Which consumer X570 boards do support ECC?
It would be so interesting to know if any of those bit errors on non-ECC RAM would lead to an actually noticeable problem for consumers/gamers. I.e. what's the chance it causes a crash? Or the chance it causes 1 pixel for 10ms in my game to be slightly less green than it should be?
it's really simple, he covered it: yes. & google reported over 30% per year of this happening... it could result in a crash, or a wrong result in a calculation or anything -> all bad.
I had memory errors and it kept giving me blue screens. So, uh, yeah, it could be very serious.
Average customer restarts their PC often enough that errors just don't happen. Also average customer uses less ram, in capacity and utility
@@BottomOfTheDumpsterFire that sounds worse than just single bit errors
@@KibitoAkuya A single bit flipped in the wrong place could corrupt a loaded driver, that's what I was getting. THANKS, XMP. (Manual overclock to the same settings as XMP somehow fixed it, 4 passes succeeded in memtest86)
I've always been an intel and Nvidia guy but man AMD and Radeon are looking real good now
Once you realize the extra 10 frames isnt worth the extra 400 dollars and that AMD runs pretty flawlessly its hard to ever look back, Ive owned two amd gaming pc's and once Nvidia and AMD just felt like less hassle for cheaper
@@julianmorgan79 the only problem is for professionals use, Nvidia is quite ahead of AMD
Radeon is still AMD... so just AMD 😂😂😂
@@brunojr9 more people game on PCs than work on blender/3d graphics
@@julianmorgan79 Especially on Linux AMD is doing a way better job than Nvidia.
I love watching LTT and acting like I know anything about technology. But honestly though, I learn a lot from this channel. I appreciate the tips and I thank you, Linus
I build X-ray devices for a living, and we do something similar, we sell the systems with 3 detector options, but only buy two types of detectors. The medium spec detector is just the high-end one but software locked to be kind of shit (I really hate it because the entire thing just does not feel right)
seems to me like this is a fairly common business practice across varied sectors. Damn i didnt know about such a thing at all. i wonder what other things that i own have paywalls and which i have fallen for
I don't get it. Manufacturer uses expensive hardware, likits it and get less money for it? But the mid anf high option cost the same to manufacture. Where's the benefit for the seller? Are the high ones pumped in price to compensate the mid?
@@tomasskraban7899 You can blow the extra money from the high ones on R&D, either to pay back or towards future R&D
@@tomasskraban7899 Sometimes it is more expensive and wasteful to develop and make both high-ended part AND a low-end one than just the high-ended one, but they still want business from the whole range of customers, if they ask everyone to pay the development cost they lose the low end customer, but they still need the extra money from the "pro" customer.
TL;DR hardware aren't the whole cost of a product, it is the same question of why should you pay more than the paper for a book.
IMO this is more about marketing (make people feel good) than totally rip-off, on the other hand it only legit when the manufacturer play it fair.
@@tomasskraban7899 we order less different detectors in higher quantities, so somehow that is cheaper.
As for why customers still have the option to buy the medium spec detector: I have no idea.
RE:
Paywall for features and mainboards with chipset ID reconfiguration - IBM's POS division used to do this with register motherboards. The same board was used in 3 different types of machines but the features for one were really just locked behind changing the product ID string.
I love this new bold and loud heated criticism by Linus instead of the usual “measured” and “restricted” delivery even though the products being reviewed deserve to get flat out outbursts of anger. Please keep making more of bold and angry criticism without holding back your emotions, it’s much more effective in sending a message and much more fun to watch.
I used to sell copiers and it was always funny when people would buy upgrades for their copier. I'd walk in, get into the technician mode, punch in a code, and walk away with their money and they would stand there stunned and say "don't you have to install something?" and I'd just reply, nope, the technology is already there, you just have to pay to have access to it. Floored so many customers and they threatened to go to a different company which I would reply, it's the same with Xerox, Sharp, HP, Canon, Brother. All the tech is in there already, you just have to pay to access it.
It's also kinda sad that with printers from these companies, it's often cheaper after a point to just buy a new printer instead of ink cartridges when it runs out because the companies sell their printers at a loss so they can give customers a "good deal" and then recoup the manufacturing cost and more with absurdly priced proprietary cartridges and deceptive refill subscriptions, which sometimes don't even work due to planned obsolescence in the printer's design after you're locked in. Literally every printer manufacturer I know of is running some version of this scam and getting away with it.
@@TerryVideoZone That's why we (my mother and I) bought a laser printer. Since it's a business class product the software is way more user friendly (presumably because a business is more likely to sue the F*** out of them). Lasers also don't have the issue of ink drying up, we're still using the starter toner cartridges from a few years ago (toner is a dry powder which liquefies when hit by the laser). Toner is more expensive up front but way less expensive per page. Our printer (a Canon Color ImageCLASS MF644CDw) cost around $300 when we bought it and has proven to be well worth it. The only downside I can see with a laser printer (aside from higher up front cost) is the weight, mine weighs about 60 lbs (I have it on top of an old wooden dresser).
I would argue that Intel is the ultimate reason why ECC memory costs more. Yes there are differences in the manufacturing but because Intel made that differentiation between consumer and business grade products being ECC memory they caused it to be lower volume in sales. This would drive the price up as the manufacturers would either have to change out existing hardware when they want to do a run of ECC or have completely separate manufacturing lines for a lower volume product. There by costing more to make. As you said Mushkin already has higher performance versions at reasonable prices that would likely minimize or eliminate the performance deficit ECC causes. So why not always have ECC as a standard feature and allow proper volume manufacturing pricing? Because Intel, plain and simple.
Yea but used ecc ram is cheap as chips xD look at ebay they go for like 10/ 8gb of ddr4
@@Brandon-uy1uv if cheap it’s probably registered ram.
ECC memory doesn't suffer from a volume problem. Servers are an utterly massive industry.
They sell more ecc memory then consumer memory data centers order them by the truck loads remember these company's make more money off servers/business then they do consumers we only a small pie slice. So they have higher production capacity on this then regular ram.
@@Bigdog1787 you're right they do order them in large truckloads for their servers and they tend to replace them in a reasonable time frame. But do the servers outnumber the employees in a given large company? Maybe? Kind of depends on the company. For most businesses, no they don't. And the employees generally speaking don't use workstation grade products that use ECC memory. Data centers might order a lot but they are few in number compared to the businesses that aren't data centers and those other businesses are using servers in house less and less. The devices being sold might be marketed as a business class product but it's still using consumer grade hardware for desktops and laptops
Don't forget the fact that besides heated seats.. How about the range of your battery? (I'd argue more important than a comfort feature), oh yeah! Tesla also did the same by artificially locking the range for the battery packs & offering to give you "extended range" with - you guessed it- a swipe of a payment. Amazing.
YES! I am sad Linus didn't catch onto that. There's also the fact that features you paid for doesn't transfer to a new owner. So if you buy used from someone who has all the top of the line features, all that stuff gets deactivated until you pay Tesla again. Idiots who want to compare it to the traditional trim levels don't realize how bad it is to give them this level of control.
To be fair this prolongs the battery life so if you use less of the battery it will also last you years longer than if you use the full capacity.
@@amunak_ Nope, this restriction is on top of the built in restriction to preserve battery life. DON'T try to spin it like it's a good thing. Also, there are already settings to charge it to a specified level you set so you can preserve the battery life even more yourself. If using more of your battery was such a bad thing, then they wouldn't put it behind a paywall. It's so annoying that people like you want to dig for a reason to defend these corporations and their anti customer practices.
@@amunak_ False that is not true, anyone reading this google it yourself you'll see they already include a built in protection that limits the battery charge, this extra limit does not increase the life span of the battery at all it only reduces range.
Think about it this way. If they do unlock the higher range, the chance of them having to cover it under warranty goes up as more of the battery is used. What if the rear heated seats take a bigger toll on the car's electric system causing more power draw which increases the chance of failure? I do not like the fact that a feature is present but it's locked out but I think this might have a role to play in this. What if the manufacturer decided to drop a year of warranty instead of asking you to pay for the feature?
Finally in a long time a really good information LTT video, not just wast a time this video actually good
How have I never heard of Mushkin Ram before?? And I've literally been shopping around for this stuff so your video is perfectly timed. Thanks LMG!
They've been learning from the pro video market - hello RED, Sony, Arri, etc, and "licenses" for capabilities already built into the cameras, and 10X markups for proprietary storage media.
My first cpu was a AMD Phenom II 555. Thing overclocked when I needed it and/or unlocked from a dual core to a quad core. Didn't quite do both well since the unlocked cores were unstable at higher clocks, but this was back when gaming was mostly single threaded anyways. Did all this for the low low price of 50$.
Even if you had to lower the base clock 10-15% to unlock those 3rd and 4th cores, that's still a massive uptick in almost every application. Like, they don't even have to accept the warranty claims on it. "This is an x-core cpu, 2 cores are binned because of unstability. Feel free to try and make it work yourself but not our problem if you screw it up." is a perfectly reasonable stance to take and would negligibly impact sales since most people wouldn't mess with it, and most people that would mess with it would go out of their way to buy something that they can mess with for that fact alone. On top of that, it stops another corporation from having that stance over you as a reason to use them instead of you.
Over the years I've had a few gaming/general use desktops I built on old server hardware with a server grade CPU and ECC RAM, it could be just me but they seem a lot more stable than my typical desktops from the same era. Just less random issues and staying running for really long periods of time (close to 24/7) without that sluggishness some PCs get when you don't reboot for a month. Most of it was ~2009 era stuff, I used to have a sweet gaming machine with a SuperMicro server board in a gaming case, quad core Opteron, massive air cooler, some kind of 2GB Radeon GPU. I was very late to the party but still proud AF when it ran Crysis maxed out at 1080P and also heated my room in the winter lmao
some of that long term problems might be consumer tier os and programs, they often don't have the same validation for stability and reliability as a server os/programs
I like the lounge music in the back! Good choice editor
First I've heard of Mushkin's higher performance ECC memory. Poked around on their website, but it looks like you have to register to see the prices? Going to look more into that. Could be great for vmware vapps VM performance.
Wow, only about a year after its initial launch you can finally use ECC with an LGA 1700 platform. What a great product launch execution - thanks Intel!
you have a point. I usually buy a kf because I dont need the on board graphics and usually have a graphics card. being able to pay 50 bucks to get it if I needed it might make sense.
I look forward to LTT screwdriver v2 that comes with an integral smartcard reader to take CC payments each time I want to change the bit.
@LTT , DDR5 ECC is during on-die phase, not during the transport. It's not the same as normal ECC.
actually impressed that u can keep so much energy after uploading for so long, you are definitely one of my favorite creators on this platform, keep doing what you do bro :)
I think it’s because he actually loves his job and it’s not really work it’s basically hanging with your friends doing a hobby you like and you make millions at the same time lol
yey
@@HaunchoJackHD yep
3 minutes ago
Early
absolutely loved the editing on this video😂
8:33 the glasses, the shadow, the emotion
I also LOVE paywalls! They improve my life style so much!
It's ridiculous, all the paywalls today just goes to show the greed of some companies
Actually, ECC does NOT use the same traces as non-ECC. In terms of the modules, the only difference between non-ECC and ECC memory is the bus width: 64 bits for non-ECC, and 72 bits for ECC. The extra wires are used to carry the parity bits alongside the data. So for a motherboard to support ECC memory, these extra signals have to be connected between the CPU socket and the DIMMs.
When hacking a car is now restoring the functionality
I would love ECC if I could also get it with the speeds my AMD system uses I use modest speeds of 3600 but I also use 64GB and would like the added stability.
While nobody makes ECC sticks with XMP, you can safely assume that a 3200-rated ECC stick will run at 3600. You just need to set the speed and timings manually.
Yes, it would be nice... Unfortunately they always forget to drop the initial price.
4:40 I had that Athlon! That was the CPU I used in my first custom built gaming rig.
ECC as feature what have been long time available, its really crappy when you cannot use 2x CPU's with ecc on aftermarker motherboard rather than any oem (yes dell etc.)
Let me think of my old amd duron 1800 cpu back then. That thing was rock kicking even the athlon/sempron back then. If people remember those cpu. Even with some wires add you can change allot lol. Yes that was possible with the duron line up.
Going back to the old days, the radio shack color computer could be upgraded from 32 mb RAM to 64 MB RAM for around $200. The extra RAM was already in the computer, all that was needed was to remove a pin from the motherboard.
***you mean a "jumper"???🤔
@@fookingsog yep
if you're talking about the TSR-80, I think you need to correct those "mb" to "kb"!
My family had a Radio Shack franchise in that era, I had a Color Computer, every word of that is wrong.
Some computers of the era did use half-bad ram chips by default due to memory prices, which were no longer half bad once prices fell.
The paywall habit has been a long term problem in corporate IT, particularly in the datacenter space. Fibre Channel switches have always been a pay by the port thing. They sell the switch for $5000-$10,000 with 16 of 48 ports enabled, and then the business has to pay for the remaining ports at about $5000 per 16. Then the SFPs are extra. There are also paywalled features in nearly every brand of firewalls. I've seen some servers with a remote management function that had all the hardware and software ready to use, but the license for it cost quite a bit extra.
Yeah, that was always a big problem. Looking at you, Brocade!
*Still* that wasn't as bad because if they simply sold switches with an empty faceplate instead, you'd have to pay to rip out and replace those switches which is hugely disruptive. Plus, once unlocked those switch ports can still be used when you resell the switch.
Haha, I loved you guys' edit to joke around about "bungged up UA-cam video"!
The editing on this video was on point 😗👌
Pawalling features of vehicles and devices should be illegal with a penalty of 10% of the violating party's global profits for each infringement.
Change my mind.
I came across this scenario recently in getting hardware for a TrueNAS Core build, where I went about to get an Intel core CPU with ECC support but had to buy a new "server-class" mobo in order to make proper use of it.
Not a lot of people realize their mistake of going Intel until they go into non-gaming duties. ECC is helpful with PC users that use RAM in applications that are more sensitive to bit change events. NAS that's on constant use is one of them, servers under high load is another.
ECC is nowhere near as fast due to parity check cycles, but system builders that prioritize integrity, found in organizations with a properly managed IT staff that finds that they lose more money cheaping out on parts and services than slightly reducing their productivity with redundancy/parity subsystems.
@@Aereto Great points you've made, and indeed for any hardware setup that's sensitive or mission critical... to not go with ECC ram is asking for one of those "Conversations that shouldn't be happening" to happen.
0:55 I wonder if LTT Lab would be able to make the “Does ECC actually matter?” video for non server applications
file system devs usually strongly suggest to use ECC.
The world gets more grimm as i age...
I want ECC! I've heard DRR5, although it does have a certain type of ECC feature, doesn't really mean the same thing as it does for true ECC memory.
Correct. DDR5s ECC is on-chip ECC, which may protect from errors inside the chip, but does not protect against errors in-transit like traditional ECC. There will be both ECC and non-ECC memory sticks with DDR5 also, with the ECC sticks having extra bits per channel just like traditional ECC.
@@turosianarcher8771 that makes sense. Is it correct that GDDR6 does something similar?
@@thedudely1 I haven't read anything about GDDR6 having on-chip ECC one way or the other, so I'm not sure.
I mean I've had weird issues from memory errors on a regular desktop PC. It was doing small, hard to notice right away things, including making it so when I went into a certain area in a game, you could see the characters but none of the world, because the specific map files were corrupted by bad RAM during downloading. It's the kinds of issues that are a huge pain to troubleshoot and figure out why it's doing something weird, so now one of the first things I do when I'm not sure what's up is test the RAM.
When I was looking to upgrade my htpc / server system, finding an economy AMD board that actually validated ECC.
As with the cars. It's far cheaper not to not have the higher option installed on the line.
They just make WAY MORE money from unlocking stuff that you've already paid for, because you are paying for it.
I think you missed one thing -- ECC and overclocking would be a great combination to have.
Most people don't have memory problems at stock speeds, true. But If you push the limits, then you will. That's where some of the crashes come from. ECC would allow you to push things a bit further because there's now some error that can be tolerated, and will tell you precisely when you go too far instead of the user having to wait for something to go wrong and having to guess whether the memory timings were too aggressive.
That would cause the RAM to work like GPU VRAM where you just get less performance instead of crashing entirely. Which is still much better.
@@googlewolly Thanks, I've edited the comment now. Since I'm on mobile, that sentence was split up, causing me to read it like a poem. I just automatically placed the comma how I proofread it, my bad.
The main use would be to help determine if an OC is stable as if errors are produced and logged you can know about it and fix it as soon as possible. Trying to depend on the correction is doomed to fail as even ECC cannot correct all errors if they are occurring that frequently.
@@drsupergood8978 Depends on how close to stable the overclock is.
Let's go, NVidia edition. We need it.
I love the detail that earlier thumbnail did have ECC written on chilp, and now after sometime it's blocked.
Im curious to how ddr5 ecc changes some of this, I hear its on every stick but not quite the same as server ecc. I made it to the end and linus mentioned this. I would still like to understand more about it.
The "ECC" that is part of the base DDR5 spec is only "on-die"; it only corrects errors on the dies (inside the little dark squares) on the module (stick) and does NOT correct any errors that may occur when data is transferred between RAM and CPU. The reason "on-die ECC" is in the DDR5 spec is because the increased density of DDR5 over DDR4 would otherwise greatly increase the manufacturing fail rate and result in less dies passing validation. In short, if you want proper end-to-end ECC, you'll still have to buy full ECC DDR5 just like you have to buy previous-generation ECC DDR modules - but I do expect a lot of retailers to confuse a lot of people.
you forgot to mention that there is no reason why it should cost extra to have a cpu with an unlocked multiplier
they just laser off the ability to change your multiplier to later charge you more for a K series cpu
Thats not necessarily true. What they usually do, in the same way depending on the die condition and then see if its an i3/i5/i7, they do the same with frequency, and see if the chip is able to push its frequency past that certain point, and if it does, its a K chip. A non-K chip most likely means it wouldnt be stable enough to overclock anyways. Same goes with F chips, where the graphics part of the chip doesnt function as expected and is turned off and you get the F chips. Thats also why they cost less, because less of the original die works.
@@sotirisael483 you know they have a power limit for frequency testing right? any non K cpu could be overclocked with a higher power limit as long as you keep it cool
not to mention xeons which are almost always a good bin but have locked multipliers for no reason
@@sotirisael483 thoughts on the new video? as you can see you can overclock non-K cpus just fine
Microsoft has done the same thing with Windows for quite some time as well. The feature set you get is simply a function of the key you use to activate it. All versions are typically there on the disc, you just have to pay extra for the key to use the features of a higher version.
In Microsoft's case it's a little more excusable since it's just software (unless it takes up a ridiculous amount of extra storage)
Paywalling physical hardware that you already bought on the other hand is significantly less excusable.
@@holy3979 Exactly. One creates real world electronic waste. The other just fills up empty space on disk / usb stick, in fact you could argue it likely prevents some real word waste because less overall are being produced as there's no need for two different sets of disks.
Its time for a new series on this channel. Like "smartifying" ur house. Adding faster lan connection for speedy home cloud storage. Making lan remote play actually usable. setting up better coverage
we've learned a bit while linus moving to the new house but I would love to get a reasonably priced tutorial
I wanted SPEED back in 2000, so I got a Tyan server board that used only ECC and had onboard SCSI U160. I put 2 Athlon MP chips on that thing and it FLEW w/ a 10k rpm drive. But wow that memory was pricey. (I never did put any PCI-X boards in it)
Just like the when 8th Gen cpu came out, even though it's the same socket you have to buy a new motherboard. But the truth is that you just need to mod the bios for 100/200 series chipset motherboard to support 8th and 9th gen CPU.
I had a really fun one a few years ago when I bought a monitor calibrator. I went with the cheapest one because I knew I could upgrade it later by just buying the pro licence.
Of course I immediately wanted the pro features after buying it, but I didn't want to pay for them, so I tried to teach myself how to do software cracking. But after a few weeks of trying, and failing, and lots of code obfuscation in the assembly, I was ready to give up, but just for fun I tried one last thing:
I noticed that the basic and pro versions were _exactly_ the same file size, and the only difference was the name of the file after installation. So I changed the name of the exe file on the basic version to the pro version, just by tagging "Pro" onto the end of it.
And it worked.
Seems that they did loads of security stuff to prevent people from using the pro version without a pro licence key, but after the program checks that you have a valid licence, it just checks the name of the exe file to see if you're running the basic or pro version, and then loads that version!
It was a really dumb and lazy shortcut.
Being a nice guy, I emailed the company and told them about it instead of plastering it all over the internet, and so in return they sent me a bunch of free stuff. And an official licence key for the pro version.
2:21
Wow Linus, wow.
FLIR does the same thing with the thermal imagers, E4 for $999 or E8 for $4k but its the same camera with diff firmware
I can't remember when I had a memory error ... Unless you count a 486 system I had way overclocked anyway!! ECC appears to be of little relevance to gamers, but if they want it and it's 'there' but needs paying extra for this seems a reasonable way to go. I don't want it. Servers probably do .. Good video. 😜
But if it's included in every CPU, it means everyone could have this unlocked, as the price you paid already included the hardware.
@@pessoaanonima6345 I wouldn't pay to make fast memory slower just for the sake of 'fixing' a problem I never had in 25 years....
@@Fantic156 As the video said, it isn't that important for most home users. But the point is that supporting it isn't a feature and doesn't cost money. Companies don't need to certify and advertise it. AMD doesn't do this. Intel, however, goes out of their way to block you from using a basic function that's already built in your processor, just to make you buy a more expensive product.
Not blocking it wouldn't make the manufacturing cheaper, so you wouldn't be paying extra.
@@pessoaanonima6345 The price does not include ECC for Intel but does include ECC for AMD excluding non-pro APUs. Think of it like paying for an electric grid to your house. Paid for(grid not electricity) and able to supply electricity to your house. Unless you agree to pay for the electricity then no electricity is supplied. Having the infrastructure to be able to supply electricity means nothing unless you actually pay for the electricity that you use. Intel has the infrastructure in place for ECC to be enabled if you choose to pay for it. Able and paid for are two different things.
@@longdang2681 It's not like electricity. You pay electricity to compensate for the creation of the infrastructure (which doesn't exist on CPUs, as all of them are theoretically capable of running ECC RAM) and to keep the generation of energy (which doesn't apply to CPUs, as there isn't any cost to Intel of your running processor.
According to someone in the comments (I don't know if it's true), the APUs should also work, they just aren't certified by AMD, which means you could get some problems with it. However, they don't intentionally block it like Intel does.
Have you ever tried spreading thermal paste under glass, to see wich pattern gets the best coverage?
Different surfaces why would you believe they would give same results
There probably isn't really a need for it. Thermal paste patterns haven't mattered since CPUs got heat spreaders.
@@XxGorillaGodxX that’s not true. If it was lapping wouldn’t matter. Or don’t use any at all if it doesn’t matter lol.
@@Thumper68 I mean what I said in a sense that, say, an X pattern would not provide better transfer than a dot on an average CPU. Of course thermal paste at all is better than not having any lol
@@XxGorillaGodxX I prefer a spiral pattern lol
Funny thing we had a big thread on WHT about this a while back where some hosting providers tried to say ECC isn't needed these days or there is no proof it is needed these days. Blows my mind how many people host on desktop grade servers without ECC with production data.
It's probably common knowledge by now that any type of overclocking voids your CPU's warranty. But this includes XMP, which is essentially mandatory for ensuring your RAM ran at its advertised bandwidth, and is something Intel happily advertises alongside XTU and its other in-house OC tools (all of which void your warranty).
But what was really dirty was how Intel (at least up until March 2021) sold a special Performance Protection Plan that would extend your warranty to overclocking. Basically, your RAM speed would be held hostage until you paid Intel a special tax to ensure you'd be covered if something went wrong (which likely wouldn't have even been your fault).
The issue is not nessisarily the fact they are doing it, its the fact that eventually this will be socially normalized as younger generations grow into it. I know younger "techy" kids that actually think its impossible to replace batteries in phones or had no idea that they used to have headphone jacks. Some even have no conceptual idea of what files and folders are because all they have used is tablets and phones. The problem is social, not a black and white 'company X just needs to stop' It needs to be socially normalized to get things repaired instead of tossing them out.
Directories, not folders XD
Terminate society, end humanity. Problem solved
im not joking. i strongly believe in this
I'd imagine you could get really close to regular RAM performance by aggressively overclocking your ECC RAM too. You could dial it in to exactly when it tells you it's getting errors, and even compensate for small errors here and there in regular use.
I did exactly that with my Samsung ECC and it overclocked well since it was really just B-die. Since I was using 4x DIMMs I couldn’t quite get it to 3200MHz CL14 reliably, so I settled for 2933MHz CL15.
It’s great that AMD doesn’t outright disable ECC functionality and that there are decent motherboard options for validated support.
or just oc non ecc ram the same way and get better peformance? why do people think ecc does anything for personal use, especially gaming...it won't do anything. Intel's right in that regard, 99% of people don't need this at all
@@Neurotik51 Performance wise, for sure it would be mostly trivial. But I think it would be wrong to assume it would provide zero benefit for us as consumers. ECC would be extremely useful when troubleshooting weird crashes for example. Without ECC you'd have to run memory tests and swap out modules. ECC would tell you right away if the RAM was at fault or not. It would also make memory overclocking easier to begin with instead of just waiting for the system to *maybe* crash.
Great video i remember wondering why we didn't have more ECC back in 2010
Simple answer: They chose Intel over AMD.
on the other end of the good-guy amd spectrum is the threadripper (pro?) CPUs that literally blow fuses to lock themselves to the first motherboard they get powered up in.
No one better to talk about convenience than Linus who has already given us just that with his UA-cam channel alone
If he doesn't like this comment, the world has failed you
Most am4 motherboards work with ECC memory, but with ECC disabled. Is that better? I love that AMD didnt paywall it, but there needs to be a clear indication of whether it actually works somewhere.
It's up to the mobo manufacturers to do it. AMD isn't actively banning the use like intel is. It's like a library, you shouldn't yell, and amd will tell you to stay quiet, while intel would just shoot you if you go above x decibels.
The main difference is that an AM4 motherboard vendor can support ECC using the standard AMD CPU and chipset. Most don't, but AMD isn't preventing them from doing it like Intel is.
2:20 Was wondering if that was going to get a mention.
Using single photon cameras has really hammered home just how many cosmic rays interact with our electronics every second