Not a pilot but I am an automation engineer and this gave me chills. Automation can be so dangerous when it does something you dont expect. As soon as you said "replaces the speeds you input with the [less conservative] non limiting speeds" I said holy shit. That could ruin your whole day.
It really should give a warning about it. But as he points out at the end of the video, there are several indications that we need to re-confirm the takeoff data.
Cheers for the video Magnar, was a great watch! No doubt with your recurrent training in Toulouse you would've learned about OEB56 from the ATR staff. Any plans on making a video about OEB56? I'm curious as to your opinion on continuous TRU usage as we have all sorts of different opinions from engineers and pilots at my operator.
It has been reported at least one case where all display systems have been lost. This can be result in a dangerous condition, especially when flying in IMC or at night. Until a fix has been developed, ATR has issued OEB 56, which requires the TRU to be ON during the entire flight. The load on the TRU is minimal because the primary source of DC electrical power is the DC generators. Therefore, this procedure has no negative effect on the systems. Although the risk of losing the display systems is very remote, the use of the TRU is a safeguard from this from happening.
As a non-ATR pilot who IS in the information assurance industry, I found this video to be fascinating and speaks to the deep integration of systems. Keep it up Mr. Nodal, your videos are wonderful. (Forgive this American hillbilly if I spelled your name wrong!)
Magnar, thanks. It seems to me not a bug but a well designed but poorly described feature which should be well attended during the ground course (and more usefull info than knowledge of how deep water the CVR and FDR can resist).
Hi again! Watching your startup sequence helps me drive my point in our fleet regarding pushback while CL on auto. In the FCOM at PRO.NOP.ANOR.3. POWERBACK AND PUSHBACK OPERATIONS there is a note “Unfeathering of propellers during pushback can damage nosewheel and/or pushback servicing.” Some guys are being over conservative and interpret it as “no pushback on auto” while i think that it obviously mean you shouldn’t switch from ftr to auto while the push is happening.
It's a precious aircraft, but from the Industrial Design perspective, leaving a button that will cause a problem readily available to be pushed is a major offense. The best option would be correcting the button behaviour via software (not likely, software changes are extremely expensive and complicated in the aviation world) or simply gluing a cheap plastic cap over the button.
This issue happens only in certain situations as explained in the video. The maintenance will still need to test the system, so it will not be removed. The solution was to change the procedure for the pilots.
@@FlywithMagnar If the button can not be removed, it should be guarded with a hinged cover like other buttons that would have negative consequences if pressed during a normal flight.
the -500 FCTM (september 12) still says to test it. perhaps this is where we got mixed up. However the latest -500 FCOM doesn't include Ice detection test anymore.
@@FlywithMagnar agree. I kinda wish ATR updated their FCTM for the -500 it is such a good tool. trying to find the correct procedure using the old FCOM format from the FCTM format to the new format was a pain.
Sounds like it does exactly what it was designed to do, and not what pilots want/expect? It makes the entire system act as if icing conditions are detected, rather than checking the icing detector function.
Thank you captain It was very informative, I follow your videos regularly nd it help me a lot to learn about ATR Could you please make some videos on MCDU FPLN set up and FGCP bcoz most of the trainees finds it very difficult for their TR
The take-off speeds (V1, VR and V2) depend on aircraft weight, atmospheric conditions (normal and icing) and other factors. The take-off speeds in icing conditions are higher than the take-off speeds in normal conditions. When there is no performance limitation, the take-off speeds are on the conservative side and gives good climb performance after take-off. However, when you depart from a short runway, you will need to reduce VR and V2 as much as possible. This is how minimum take-off speeds are defined. For example, if minimum VR for a given weight in icing conditions is 100 kt, and you prepare to take-off in normal conditions, and you are performance limited, you must enter the take-off speeds manually into the FMS. If VR is set to be less than 100 kt, then everything is set for the scenario in this video. This video explains take-off performance in more detail: ua-cam.com/video/AIfwMy-rhig/v-deo.html
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for your reply Sir, I wanted to ask one more thing, In case of ice accretion on wings at TO, can you use the pneumatic deice boots or you increase your TO speeds? Thanks
If you have ice accretion during take-off, you have done a terrible mistake. When there are icing conditions at take-off, you must de-ice the airplane with Type 2 or 4 fluid. This prevents accumulation of ice during take-off. You will also increase the speeds and delay flaps retraction until you reach a higher speed.
Is this the reason for OEB45 ? Also another question, if the temperature just slightly change (just right on different speed calculate from sps) during T.O. Did the non-limit speed would also disappear?
OEB 45: Yes it is. A temperature change will not affect the take-off speeds. Once they are inserted and confirmed, they are fixed. However, it might affect engine power. But the effect is small, as a temperature change is gradual.
Before the problem was discovered, it was normal procedure for the pilots to push the test button after engine start. The procedure is now changed, but the test button is still used by maintenance.
Pushback is required by local regulations at some airports. The cockpit video is recorded at Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand, where you must park nose in at all parking stands. Pushback is mandatory.
So when do we use that ice test button? I know i never found that on FCTM but I'm curious to when it should be used. Can it be tested during preliminary cockpit preparation?
We pilots shall not touch the ice test button. It is not required because it is self-testing. The test requires ACW, so it cannot be tested during preliminary cockpit preparation.
If you start engine #2 in hotel mode in tailwind, there's a chance that the exhaust gases are ingested into the air condition system. A rotating propeller prevents that. We also avoid starting engine #2 from GPU when the propeller brake is off.
ATR pilots are fortunate to have you.
100%
yes!
OMG Magnar ! You made my day. I always wondered why it disappeared!! That's awesome thank you so much ! 🙏
Not a pilot but I am an automation engineer and this gave me chills. Automation can be so dangerous when it does something you dont expect. As soon as you said "replaces the speeds you input with the [less conservative] non limiting speeds" I said holy shit. That could ruin your whole day.
Yes. I personally find this to be an engineering failure.
It really should give a warning about it. But as he points out at the end of the video, there are several indications that we need to re-confirm the takeoff data.
Thank you and very insightful Captain. In my airline , we don’t do Ice Test after engine start. Having Take-off page for PF now makes more sense.
Cheers for the video Magnar, was a great watch! No doubt with your recurrent training in Toulouse you would've learned about OEB56 from the ATR staff. Any plans on making a video about OEB56? I'm curious as to your opinion on continuous TRU usage as we have all sorts of different opinions from engineers and pilots at my operator.
It has been reported at least one case where all display systems have been lost. This can be result in a dangerous condition, especially when flying in IMC or at night. Until a fix has been developed, ATR has issued OEB 56, which requires the TRU to be ON during the entire flight. The load on the TRU is minimal because the primary source of DC electrical power is the DC generators. Therefore, this procedure has no negative effect on the systems. Although the risk of losing the display systems is very remote, the use of the TRU is a safeguard from this from happening.
Good day Capt...that why The ATR give OEB 45
Reset of take off speed set manually when performing Annunciator Light test or Icing Test..
Outstanding as always Captain. A movei of your it’s always a learning process. Keep the good work and good luck at your new job.
As a non-ATR pilot who IS in the information assurance industry, I found this video to be fascinating and speaks to the deep integration of systems.
Keep it up Mr. Nodal, your videos are wonderful. (Forgive this American hillbilly if I spelled your name wrong!)
Tks for the information
Thank for explaining ATR OEB45
Magnar, thanks. It seems to me not a bug but a well designed but poorly described feature which should be well attended during the ground course (and more usefull info than knowledge of how deep water the CVR and FDR can resist).
Exellent video and very informative! Thank you, Magnar!
THANK YOU SIR .👍
Very interesting. Thanks.
Hi again! Watching your startup sequence helps me drive my point in our fleet regarding pushback while CL on auto. In the FCOM at PRO.NOP.ANOR.3. POWERBACK AND PUSHBACK OPERATIONS there is a note “Unfeathering of propellers during pushback can damage nosewheel and/or pushback servicing.” Some guys are being over conservative and interpret it as “no pushback on auto” while i think that it obviously mean you shouldn’t switch from ftr to auto while the push is happening.
I agree.
It's a precious aircraft, but from the Industrial Design perspective, leaving a button that will cause a problem readily available to be pushed is a major offense. The best option would be correcting the button behaviour via software (not likely, software changes are extremely expensive and complicated in the aviation world) or simply gluing a cheap plastic cap over the button.
This issue happens only in certain situations as explained in the video. The maintenance will still need to test the system, so it will not be removed. The solution was to change the procedure for the pilots.
@@FlywithMagnar If the button can not be removed, it should be guarded with a hinged cover like other buttons that would have negative consequences if pressed during a normal flight.
Thank you for your classes!
Thank you for the information Captain .
thank you for this information and it was great to see you on the ramp even from far in DNIL
Superb. "It's not a bug, it's a feature."
An "unexpected feature" ;-p
Thank you Captain
Excellent Capt ! Thank you
Maybe the reason this action is so frequently encountered is because it is included in the FCTM, 42. Before Taxi
the -500 FCTM (september 12) still says to test it. perhaps this is where we got mixed up. However the latest -500 FCOM doesn't include Ice detection test anymore.
The FCOM has priority over FCTM, as the FCTM is the last manual to be updated.
@@FlywithMagnar agree. I kinda wish ATR updated their FCTM for the -500 it is such a good tool. trying to find the correct procedure using the old FCOM format from the FCTM format to the new format was a pain.
Thanks Captain for an informative video as ever
Pussycat Dolls: Push the button!
Magnar: Nononononono... we don't do that here....
thank you, it's a very useful and important notice
Excellent catch!!🙏🙏thanks so much.
Thank you Capt. 🌹
Sounds like it does exactly what it was designed to do, and not what pilots want/expect? It makes the entire system act as if icing conditions are detected, rather than checking the icing detector function.
Great
Very nice information thanks
Thanks for the information! Nice video! Safe Flying!
Thank you very nice!! A assume the ATR didn´t knew the reason!
ATR know WHAT, but it's harder to pinpoint WHERE in the software.
Thank you captain
It was very informative, I follow your videos regularly nd it help me a lot to learn about ATR
Could you please make some videos on MCDU FPLN set up and FGCP bcoz most of the trainees finds it very difficult for their TR
Hi Captain,
Won't the minimum icing speeds be always greater than the TO speeds (due to lower Clmax)? What cases can the TO speeds be greater. Thanks
The take-off speeds (V1, VR and V2) depend on aircraft weight, atmospheric conditions (normal and icing) and other factors. The take-off speeds in icing conditions are higher than the take-off speeds in normal conditions. When there is no performance limitation, the take-off speeds are on the conservative side and gives good climb performance after take-off. However, when you depart from a short runway, you will need to reduce VR and V2 as much as possible. This is how minimum take-off speeds are defined.
For example, if minimum VR for a given weight in icing conditions is 100 kt, and you prepare to take-off in normal conditions, and you are performance limited, you must enter the take-off speeds manually into the FMS. If VR is set to be less than 100 kt, then everything is set for the scenario in this video.
This video explains take-off performance in more detail: ua-cam.com/video/AIfwMy-rhig/v-deo.html
@@FlywithMagnar Thank you for your reply Sir,
I wanted to ask one more thing, In case of ice accretion on wings at TO, can you use the pneumatic deice boots or you increase your TO speeds?
Thanks
If you have ice accretion during take-off, you have done a terrible mistake. When there are icing conditions at take-off, you must de-ice the airplane with Type 2 or 4 fluid. This prevents accumulation of ice during take-off. You will also increase the speeds and delay flaps retraction until you reach a higher speed.
Is this the reason for OEB45 ?
Also another question, if the temperature just slightly change (just right on different speed calculate from sps) during T.O. Did the non-limit speed would also disappear?
OEB 45: Yes it is.
A temperature change will not affect the take-off speeds. Once they are inserted and confirmed, they are fixed. However, it might affect engine power. But the effect is small, as a temperature change is gradual.
So why there is a test button?
Before the problem was discovered, it was normal procedure for the pilots to push the test button after engine start. The procedure is now changed, but the test button is still used by maintenance.
Why do ATRs get pushed back? I fly on Air NZ ATRs all the time, no push back.
Pushback is required by local regulations at some airports. The cockpit video is recorded at Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport in Thailand, where you must park nose in at all parking stands. Pushback is mandatory.
@@FlywithMagnar Ok I see thank you for clarifying that! :)
So when do we use that ice test button? I know i never found that on FCTM but I'm curious to when it should be used. Can it be tested during preliminary cockpit preparation?
We pilots shall not touch the ice test button. It is not required because it is self-testing. The test requires ACW, so it cannot be tested during preliminary cockpit preparation.
@@FlywithMagnar I wonder why they have that button. Maybe it should be blanked out.
@@FlywithMagnar Is this applicable to 500s also ?
@@freshgasflow For mantainance
Why you start Nr.1 first because of the tail wind?
If you start engine #2 in hotel mode in tailwind, there's a chance that the exhaust gases are ingested into the air condition system. A rotating propeller prevents that. We also avoid starting engine #2 from GPU when the propeller brake is off.
@@FlywithMagnar
Thank you.
Ups!!!
No time toulouse....
.
Old dogs, new tricks.
:)
.
The nasty French airplane strikes again