When I first started riding I was one of those people who thought using the front brake offroad was a death sentence. Chris Birch has a video in his coaching series where he says something along the lines of, "The front brake is for stopping, the rear brake is for stability", which is why they're great to use in conjunction with each other. Adam Riemann has a drill where you "become the abs" and you ride slowly in a straight line and pull the front brake until you feel it lock, then you let go, then get back up to speed and repeat. Going out and doing that made me realize how much front brake one actually has offroad. Especially those with fancy offroad abs, I encourage you to see how much pull it takes to get that to actually engage. Learning to use the front brake and practicing things like trail braking really improved my offroad skills.
It's interesting that these quotes by CB and AR are available on tarmac as well, just modulated differently. I believe that once you go offroad you also learn that tarmac is just another surface like any other and not a magical sticky lane for dragging the knee around. Each surface just needs it's own balance, stance and techniques to be ridden safe and happy
I really like the clarity of the sponsor message being identified. We've all got to eat, and the sponsorship paid for me to get free coaching. Thanks! And I don't feel conned, and next time I'm shopping for a 50/50 tyre I'll be thinking about the Dunlop.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. And, he's pretty effective, as I'm looking at the tires right now, even though I am not looking for a 50/50. It's nice when the product is actually of interest to those who've clicked on a video to see content of a specific type. I'm sure I am not alone, but had he started talking about mattresses or improving coding skills, I would have skipped over it all. Nicely done.
It is a solid tire, reviews are pretty spot on. Negatives, a touch noisy on road and the front does tend to slide before catching in loose turns. But it does catch.
My mountain biking friends called it letting the tire roll. The technical term is threshold braking. Nobody mentions this but it is critical for anything with brakes.
This is my favorite channel; nothing else is even close. You make everything relatable and I appreciate it. Also, all of my toolkit advice comes from you and Jenny Morgan.
As someone with more experience riding my mountain bike than my adv bike, i find it interesting people spend so little time talking about where and when to brake offroad. Surface friction is constantly changing off road, and knowing how to find the grippiest section of trail is pretty inportant when riding fast. Reading the trail to find the spots where you will find the moat grip, and knowing when you need to let off the brakes momentarily due to a complete lack of grip, are some of the skills I have found most useful transfering from mtb to adv, and something i rarely hear talked about. It gets a lot more talk in the mtb community. Pure technique is obviously super imprtant, but i would argue knowing how to read the trail is nearly equally important, as technnique falls apart if you arent on the right line to use it. Bad technique will likely work better on a good line then good technique on a bad line.
I totally agree and it’s a great point. It does get talked about in coaching environments, we do specific lessons to teach that. I guess it’s not an exciting video 😂
Fantastic as always. It may seem obvious that the more fingers used, the stronger the squeeze. While we may all say - sure, makes sense. Here is some fun info. - “The percentage contributions of the index, middle, ring, and small fingers to grip were approximately 25%, 35%, 25%, and 14%, respectively.” - July 2004 Journal of Hand Therapy 17(3):364-7
I came to bike skill training pretty late in the day but have to say the stand out lesson and technique is braking. Totally agree with how you have presented this and whether on road or off constant practice is a game changer. As my confidence progressed I practiced in the rain on my road bike and steep slippy downhills off road, still do. It's astonishing what the bikes and tyres are capable of!
I watched your episode explaining the gearbox and how an easy and quick solution can be provided in certain circumstances to make the bike moveable.. Itchy Boots... Thank you very much.. I learn from your explanations, even though some of them are difficult for me. But I am learning little by little... A new subscriber from Saudi Arabia... Greetings 💐🇸🇦
Thank you ..56…owned over 23 bikes…under 2 minutes at Philip Island ..was late to off road and adv riding and struggle with placing too much reliance on front brake. But the point you make about ever so slightly applying a little back break first is profound to me . Makes perfect sense as loads the rear shock ever so slightly ….the front will still do most of the work but by applying first it prevents the split second front brake dive that can unbalance the overall suspension load . With this new found knowledge I think I will not be as intimidated by fast off road breaking on my Desert X. 🙏
I can't remember if it was Birchy, Reiman, or someone else but thinking of the brakes this way has helped me, especially on dirt. Front brake for stopping, rear brake for stability.
Ive learned to be more confident with the front tyre and finding the threshold of skidding a little through past over-confidence in my riding abilities resulting in an unplanned emergency panic brake 😅
Great video, agree with everything you've said apart from pulling in the clutch whilst braking. The rear wheel wants to be connected to the engine for as long as possible. You'll stop quicker, be more stable and have greater control.
Great video 👍🏻 Braking is such an important skill to develop and often neglected. I like to incorporate a “braking accuracy” drill in my practice sessions. After a rider has the practiced everything you covered so well in the video, the next drill I like to incorporate is having the rider experience how much distance is needed to come to a complete controlled stop. This should be done at different speeds and on different surfaces. Once you have experienced how long it takes to safely stop… you can make better decisions about how fast you should be riding on the trail you are on.
@@BrakeMagazine Often, I see riders practicing braking drills that are actually just long rear wheel slides until they come to a stop, as opposed to putting in a full effort to make the bike stop in the shortest distance possible.
I am [soon to be “was”] a front brake jabber, thinking pulsing the front was safer than constant pressure. Thanks for explaining why this just doesn’t work.
Super helpful content! especially the bake brake first bit. i had been doing it but never thought about why it works. Besides over speed brake technique is probably responsible for the majority of rapid get off's.
I enjoy all your videos. I’d love to see you do another video on your Dakar experience, but with an emphasis on the costs involved. Entry fee, bike prep, mechanical support, parts, logistics etc.
Really enjoy and find your mini tip videos. One thing I struggle with is the feel of the back break when standing up on the bike.I feel like I know what I should be doing just cant get my foot there because the way my knee is bent.. Maybe bike set up?
Great explanation of brakes, I've been using the front to gain traction in tight dirt turns! Works well. Now if I could only perfect that accent, my "turns" with the ladies would also be *smooth"
Dunlop Trailmax Raid disadvantage is price, so I went to Mitas Enduro trail+ tyres. Last ones was Dunlop Trailmax Mission tyres and they last little over 30tkm... :) Let see what Mitas do.
Great vid, thank you! My critique would be that i prefer to remain neutral over the bike while breaking standing up, which actually means transferring weight to the back. I find this gives a better feeling of control and beings able to react as oppsed to weighting the front of the bike or bracing on the bars. The natural weight transfer of the bike to the front is more than enough to weight the front wheel for grip. Just my 2c. Cheers!
Now question do you own this Strom ? It's yet another vid with it . Well I love! it I own one as well! best choice ever. Weak ago I was cruising down city didn't pay attention to speed but close to 65+ kph and the pedestrian decided to cross on crossing they did stop but I slammed on my brakes so hard that for the first time I felt abs kick in . Besides the fork dive I was surprised how quickly I could stop and the little distance It took was far away from the crosswalk. But after that I rood suspension for adjustment because the factory settings feels soft and squishy
went for a ride today on familiar backroads, usually around 50 to 60 with the sandy and corrugations, but had some extra confidence and really nice weather and managed to hit it at 100kph and keep speed in corners.. hit one bad bump and then lost all confidence for a while and back to 40kph for a bit but confidence really does play a huge role
Love your content and thank you. How would you explain when to add downshifting/engine braking to your slowing technique and when? I'm more of a fan of including downshifting to my braking or slowing process when on tarmac/road (shifting up for speed and down to scrub off speed as I approach a turn) and engine braking (typically riding in a slightly lower gear) plus braking when on dirt. Curious about your opinion on this and when you would suggest utilizing downshifting and engine braking, to scrub off speed. Thanks.
First time I heard someone mention something I noticed my first week of riding, that a little back brake compresses the suspension a bit and takes the edge off front end compression when you pull in the front brake.
Great video. You said the dipping of the front helps increase brake power; does this mean my bikes “anti-dive” feature for the semi-active suspension is harmful to braking distance?
not an expert: he mentions the forks squishing helps put more weight on the front tire this is because the force of deceleration becomes balanced by the forks pushing back up effectively transferring the weight forward. While the forks are squishing down to that point the forks are taking that forward energy rather then the tire so anti-dive would actually make that process happen way faster. Rather then the forks needing to squish down to transfer the weight it is almost immediately transferred. Hope that makes sense!
Hi ! *I think that* : although you might have less maximum grip because of less weight shift, you might be able to obtain you maximum grip earlier. While the fork is compressing, you don't have your maximum grip yet, because of the weight beING transfered to the front. The maximum grip is obtained when the fork is fully compressed. I think : the softer the suspension, the slower the weight will be effectively applied to the front tire. The harder, the faster. But you can't have a solid fork, as the shift would barely happen. As anything, it's an equation.
These two comments are mostly correct. Anti dive does not remove the dive completely, it just stops the fork from completely collapsing through the stroke. Sometimes we see the opposite end of that effect in longer travel bikes where on the road that can take a long time to actually generate any grip. Along the same path, overly soft long travel bikes can create unpredictable grip because they don't have much while the fork is compressing and then when it gets too low it can overload the grip level. Anti dive or controlled suspension set-up are generally pretty good in this regard.
breaking I understand.. I need to learn how to get my front wheel over deep ruts.. when I am in 3rd gear, relatively low in the rev range of my Tenere 700, is there enough oomph to get the wheel up a few inches with a twist to the throtte and blipping the clutch?
Semi-related question: I am just getting back to riding (track bikes and ADV [Multi V4 Rally] after foot surgery that at least temporarily reduced my ability to turn my left foot down and inward, meaning I cannot cram my off-road boots under the ADV bike shift lever, no matter how much I try to. That may change in time as I gain strength. So far, I’m just using my track boots on the Multistrada, which of course is not ideal. Do you have any suggestions on how to work around the problem? Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the Mini Tip Monday videos!
You could try learning to heel shift or there is a device that sits above and below your toe, like a double gear lever. I can remember the name now, but it's a great idea for this situation.
I have drop foot from a previous accident and I find raising the gear lever a bit works a treat with mx book. All my shifting is done through my hip or by leaning back slightly while standing using the stiffness of the boot as leverage. Down shift are a slight lift of the boot to get on top of the shifter. 👍
Thanks! There isn’t much adjustment available on my bike, possibly due to the quick shifter, but I am going through physical therapy and hope to improve the situation soon. Yes, the full-on motocross boots really don’t have a lot of give!
I noticed that body position wasn't mentioned in the video, perhaps to keep it simple? As a mountain biker who transitioned to adventure riding, I've found that body position is crucial, especially during aggressive stopping. While brakes slow the bike, they don't control the rider's momentum. The ability to lock the hips and ankles effectively allows for more confident and forceful braking.
I think people could gain huge braking skill and confidence if they spent time on a moto X bike, enduro or a modern full suspension mountain bike. Easy to do a taster day or skills course. All these bike are light, have huge front end grip and great braking feel. It is daunting for the average rider to learn the limits of off-road braking on a 220kg bike with hugely variable tyres and brakes that might be front ABS, rear ABS, linked or setting dependent and front suspension that might be dive resistant (BMW) or very vague and soft.
Just gojngvto start off roading . Only ridden on roadcto date. Uour videos are great. I live in Yorkshire. Do u do any skills training or could you recommend any. Thanks
got once a race track session day with police guys. Only thing without false modesty I know to do is braking ( at last one thing i manage ;) ). There was some contest.I made the shortest stop, but stalled the engine at the end, letting gear transmission connected and of course rear brake at end stopped it. All riders laugh by the police guys said it was proof of a very correct braking emergency.... If you look at modern cars technology, there is detection for fast braking, enhancing the power of brakes, because we all don't brake enough hard on the very few begin. Something you show in this video about importance to make front wheel first dig in ground before we can modulating less and less as speed slows down; exactly opposite of what we tend naturally, brake not enough then a lot at then end with no benefits....
I'm not convinced that it is based on pushing the tyre into the dirt. As I was taught in my Learners course, as you progressively apply the front brake, weight is transferred to the front wheel, this flattens the tyres creating a larger contact patch, thereby increasing stopping power. This I think is what you were meant to say.
You're welcome to not be convinced but it is. Let me explain in another way and you can try it and tell me. Grip = Friction. When friction is high, grip is high. If you take your thumb and lightly place it on the table, you can slide your thumb around easily. If you press down really hard with your thumb it becomes much harder to slide. The same rule applies to lots of things. if we drag an empty card board box across the floor it is easy. Put 20kg in the box and it is harder. Now, the tyre will squish and get bigger, but not significantly. The contact patch of a front tyre isn't massive. It does make a difference, no doubt. If we perform the same experiment with out index finger instead of our thumb you will see. The index finger is a small percentage smaller. The difference in friction is small. Hope that helps explain it!
@@BrakeMagazine What you just said validated what I had said. Push down harder on your thumb you flatten out the contact patch making it larger, whereby creating more friction. See if it was a block of metal, the contact patch size would not change size, but as it is a squishy balloon in affect, if deforms and creates a larger contact patch to the surface it is pushed against. Any physicists in the house, that would like disambiguate this?
@@the_explorerist I agreed that the tyre gets a bigger contact patch. I would suggest you go and watch the Brett Tckaks video on tyre pressures. The deformation of a tyre makes a difference. So does the compound and the tread pattern. I already said that, but the deformation of tyre isn't the only reason you have grip, it a factor. A much bigger slice of the pie is the downward force. You could have the biggest surface area in the world, but without gravity the friction would be low. If we h.ad 2x gravity the friction would be higher Add more downward force, get more friction, get more grip. If it was only about contact patch you could do all your stopping with the bigger rear tyre, with a bigger contact patch, but you can't because it's about generating downward force, to provide the grip to stop the wheel locking. It's why when you're stopped on a hill, the front brake becomes completely ineffective and the rear brake becomes effective. Hopefully that explains it :)
This would make sense, if it didn't completely ignore physics. Friction has nothing to do with surface area, or the size of the contact patch. It is simply the coefficient of friction X the normal force. Basically just how grippy the rubber and surface it's braking on are X how much force is being pushed through the tire into the ground. As you break, the normal force on the front tire will increase as the weight of the bike shifts forward. This creates additional friction, and therefore allows you to brake harder on the front wheel. The opposite happens on the rear wheel, which despite having a much larger surface area, doesn't have the same amount of breaking power due to the lack of normal force ( aka weight) . Off road tire deformation probably plays into the equation a small amount as well, but not nearly as much as normal force. This is pretty much what the video and brake mags response has been stating, and lines up with basic physics principles. Can't say I am a physisist, but this is my understanding as a mechanical engineer, and with some basic googling to confirm my memory.
Oh no, this is so wrong, please, and i mean this in the nicest possible way, reeducate yourself, nothning more important that good underatanding for safe riding. The size of the contact patch has nothning to do with how well you brake. If you have 50kg over 1cm or 50kg over 100cm, nothning changes accept the area over wich that load is spread over. In other words increaseing the contact patch does nothning to help you stop faster. Actually it can make it worse. You know how they say if youre on ice you need to spread your weight over a larger surfuace not to brake the ice? Now imagine that in a limited traction enviorment like a gravel road. To prevent your tire from skidding arround you want to breake trough that slick surfuace into a hard packed enviorment below it, same in mud or sand. So if your tire spreads the load over a bigger contact patch, its less likely to brake trough the slick surfuace to the hard packed ground below said surfuace, effectively increaseing your braking distance. It should also be mentioned that adv/dualsport/dirt bikes come with narrower rims due to that reason. So in short, no, increased surface does not mean a shorter braking distance, and therefore should not be your goal, even if it happens naturally. If this dosent convince you, take a block of wood, put some string on it, put it in dirt, jump on it and drag it behind you. Now take a wooden spike, and do the same, see wich is harder to pull, ergo that one brakes better.
Personally I think the reason most beginners have confidence issues or braking problems is because of tyres like Dunlop Raids. I left motocross and found myself buying an adventure bike which came fitted with Conti TKC80s - now after a bit of research it seemed the adv bike world saw these as amazing off-road tyres. So I get to my first lane, it was a bit muddy and before I know it, it seemed everything I'd learnt from years of racing MX bikes had disappeared and I just couldn't ride this bike on these tyres down a simple lane. I now know, having taken my head out my ass, it wasn't the bike, it wasn't me, it was the tyres. I so wish there'd be a bit more of an honest conversation about tyres and the myths that go around - Dunlop D908s are a great tyre, will give people bags of grip off-road, work brilliantly on the wet grass of the campsite or a wet bastard lane - raids on wet grass?.... raids on a greasy wet cross camber?... Yes 908s aren't great on a wet road, so slow down - going on a road tour, put something different on, take the 908s off and put the raids on. I so feel novice riders are handicapping themselves by trying to learn off-road techniques whilst using wholly inappropriate tyres
Is agree with the sentiment, but there is some detail here. The ADV bike world generally has its head up its arse about tyres. Those on forums shout loudly with poor knowledge. The TKC 80 is a shitty tyre. It was designed in 1988 and rides like it 😂 It is shockingly bad in wet mud, wet tarmac and generally okay on dry ground. Modern ADV tyres are a lot better, but like you point out, are still limited and yes tyres make a difference. So does choosing where you do what you’re doing.
@@BrakeMagazine surely Llel, unless you know where you're going and have up to date details on trail conditions, there lies the problem and certainly if you're off on an adventure to somewhere you've never been before?
I agree, but I think the specificness of a tyre like 908RR is pretty high. It very works well in off-road conditions, but really poor on the street, especially on certain bikes. I had the same with the Karoo Extreme. Genuinely phenomenal as ADV off-road tyre, but on my T7 project bike, a shocker on the road. Like actually a bit scary. It's always about that balance, and for 85% of adventure riding, tyres like Karoo 4, Trailmax Raids and Anakee Wild's are really good. They struggle with very specific issues, mostly claggy mud and clay. Even on sodden trails in Wales, if the base has some rock they're really good and that's the compromise. I covered this in the learning to ride mud video.
@@BrakeMagazine I think many tho Llel are trying to go where trail bikes go, doing the TET, green lanes in their local area etc and doing it generally on wholly inappropriate tyres - no one is riding their EXC 450 or FE501 on Dunlop Raids or Karoos, yet big bike riders are trying to follow the same route as many dirt bike riders but totally handicapping themselves with their tyre choice, never mind the 100kg weight penalty! Yes that means you can't go so quick on the road, you have to ease off and be careful, but when off road you won't keep losing your front end, braking levers and bending parts. I certainly think there needs to be an honest conversation about what is realistic on 50/50 tyres and what is to be gained and lost when you go way more aggressive with tread
All i ever heard for decades was hype about the TKC80. Finally tried one recently (rear) and it's hot garbage. There's no good pressure, it either feels like mush or a rock, and doesn't want to hook up anywhere. especially on pavement, it just chatters horribly in a drift and has no traction at all when rolled over. On dirt it's not very confidence inspiring, it's unpredictable breakout means you pitch it in and IT decides randomly when to step out lol. It also wore down in no time at all, i'd be lucky if i get 1000 miles from it, what a joke. I SWEAR by the Dunlop D606s, those are the best i've ridden so far for all around. They're super solid on dirt, the do EXACTLY what you want when you want, and works with the same pressure on and offroad, so drifting on pavement feels just as stable as on dirt. You can feel a bit of knobby wobble when you're all the way over but it doesn't upset the bike. Tusk Dsports weren't bad tires, they hooked up decently but the front for some reason felt really heavy and mushy on turn in, like it was fighting my countersteer. I REALLY want to try the Michelin Baja tires, i've always loved Michelins for MTB, biketrials and freeride. I'm also curious about D605s, if they're similar to a 606 they should be good.
It’s called progressive braking and every rider should learn it. I use progressive braking on an 800lb cruiser as it does not have abs. I will use that method on the off-road as well.
Progressive braking is not always best. Measurements show that on good tarmac, the best choice can be to simply slam on the brakes and let ABS sort the weight transfer.
You realise the ABS is just doing the same thing right? It's just better than the average skill level. A skilled rider is still out braking or matching GOOD ABS. The important distinction is ABS is not created equal. Sophisticated ABS systems, like those using BOSCH IMU's are good. Cheaper systems are still pretty rudimental and off road there are only 3 bikes I've ridden where the ABS is genuinely really good.
@@BrakeMagazine Absolutely. There are differences between ABSes, but modern ones are better than the vast majority of riders. I'm talking about the tarmac, of course, I don't have enough experience off road. We've had a discussion on the BMW R1200R forum about precisely this - progressive braking vs slamming on the brakes. Even the instruction manual for my R1250R says that optimal braking is progressive braking. But my experience has shown me that modern ABSes are so good, that an average rider has no chance of out-braking them. So I went out and made some measurements using accelerometers on an Arduino and some custom software. I consider myself an above average rider, being a licensed motorcycle and car safety instructor, but I couldn't out-brake the ABS. While emergency braking from 40km/h to a stop, the ABS produced on average 0.1g better deceleration and the motorcycle stopped 1m earlier, then when I tried to brake progressively. I think that UA-cam deletes comments with links, so if you're interested in the experiment, get in contact with me and I'll send you the data. I intend to involve some other instructors (to rule out my possible incompetence) and do the same experiment at higher speeds and hopefully older ABSes, but I suspect that the outcome will be similar.
There’s a generation of riders now relying on abs, TC and electronic rider programmes. Having learnt to ride 40+ years I’ve always used both my brakes depending on road conditions or when off-road. It’s like everything in life be committed, yet deliberate and observant of the conditions around you. Personally, I prefer riding with the abs off it negates reliance on digital aids that may actually cause you more trouble than help.
Get a motocross bike and learn to ride properly first before going on the road a place that is far less forgiving that learning on a dirt bike and it takes a lot of effort to be good at anything. Learning to ride on the road is a fools paradise
@@BrakeMagazine I remember people were sharing pictures and experiences in a Facebook group. Surprising amount of testemonies but I can't remember which one. I'll see if I can find it for you. The bike was a Suzuki Vstrom 800de. I don't remember if it was TET, but the guy said he just came from north Africa.
When I first started riding I was one of those people who thought using the front brake offroad was a death sentence. Chris Birch has a video in his coaching series where he says something along the lines of, "The front brake is for stopping, the rear brake is for stability", which is why they're great to use in conjunction with each other. Adam Riemann has a drill where you "become the abs" and you ride slowly in a straight line and pull the front brake until you feel it lock, then you let go, then get back up to speed and repeat. Going out and doing that made me realize how much front brake one actually has offroad. Especially those with fancy offroad abs, I encourage you to see how much pull it takes to get that to actually engage. Learning to use the front brake and practicing things like trail braking really improved my offroad skills.
Great comment.
Arieman’s “become the ABS” and “relax the chassis” are life changers
It's interesting that these quotes by CB and AR are available on tarmac as well, just modulated differently. I believe that once you go offroad you also learn that tarmac is just another surface like any other and not a magical sticky lane for dragging the knee around. Each surface just needs it's own balance, stance and techniques to be ridden safe and happy
I have the video set and that quote "The front brake is for stopping, the rear brake is for stability",really stuck with me as well.
Great video, thanks. You've inspired me to do some more drills, I'll be out in the hill tomorrow.
Nice one
I really like the clarity of the sponsor message being identified. We've all got to eat, and the sponsorship paid for me to get free coaching. Thanks!
And I don't feel conned, and next time I'm shopping for a 50/50 tyre I'll be thinking about the Dunlop.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. And, he's pretty effective, as I'm looking at the tires right now, even though I am not looking for a 50/50. It's nice when the product is actually of interest to those who've clicked on a video to see content of a specific type. I'm sure I am not alone, but had he started talking about mattresses or improving coding skills, I would have skipped over it all. Nicely done.
Thanks Y’all!
I have them on my GS and I am happy.
@@brianlekei8920 how do you find them in the wet on tar?
It is a solid tire, reviews are pretty spot on. Negatives, a touch noisy on road and the front does tend to slide before catching in loose turns. But it does catch.
My mountain biking friends called it letting the tire roll. The technical term is threshold braking. Nobody mentions this but it is critical for anything with brakes.
This is my favorite channel; nothing else is even close. You make everything relatable and I appreciate it. Also, all of my toolkit advice comes from you and Jenny Morgan.
Wow, thank you!
As someone with more experience riding my mountain bike than my adv bike, i find it interesting people spend so little time talking about where and when to brake offroad. Surface friction is constantly changing off road, and knowing how to find the grippiest section of trail is pretty inportant when riding fast. Reading the trail to find the spots where you will find the moat grip, and knowing when you need to let off the brakes momentarily due to a complete lack of grip, are some of the skills I have found most useful transfering from mtb to adv, and something i rarely hear talked about. It gets a lot more talk in the mtb community. Pure technique is obviously super imprtant, but i would argue knowing how to read the trail is nearly equally important, as technnique falls apart if you arent on the right line to use it. Bad technique will likely work better on a good line then good technique on a bad line.
I totally agree and it’s a great point. It does get talked about in coaching environments, we do specific lessons to teach that. I guess it’s not an exciting video 😂
I found that going downhill on very hard track on MTB is the best way to precisley learn braking and relax hands on bars to better ride enduro bike...
Fantastic as always.
It may seem obvious that the more fingers used, the stronger the squeeze. While we may all say - sure, makes sense. Here is some fun info.
- “The percentage contributions of the index, middle, ring, and small fingers to grip were approximately 25%, 35%, 25%, and 14%, respectively.” - July 2004 Journal of Hand Therapy 17(3):364-7
I came to bike skill training pretty late in the day but have to say the stand out lesson and technique is braking. Totally agree with how you have presented this and whether on road or off constant practice is a game changer. As my confidence progressed I practiced in the rain on my road bike and steep slippy downhills off road, still do. It's astonishing what the bikes and tyres are capable of!
Couldn't agree more!
I watched your episode explaining the gearbox and how an easy and quick solution can be provided in certain circumstances to make the bike moveable..
Itchy Boots...
Thank you very much.. I learn from your explanations, even though some of them are difficult for me. But I am learning little by little...
A new subscriber from Saudi Arabia...
Greetings 💐🇸🇦
Thank you ..56…owned over 23 bikes…under 2 minutes at Philip Island ..was late to off road and adv riding and struggle with placing too much reliance on front brake. But the point you make about ever so slightly applying a little back break first is profound to me . Makes perfect sense as loads the rear shock ever so slightly ….the front will still do most of the work but by applying first it prevents the split second front brake dive that can unbalance the overall suspension load . With this new found knowledge I think I will not be as intimidated by fast off road breaking on my Desert X. 🙏
I can't remember if it was Birchy, Reiman, or someone else but thinking of the brakes this way has helped me, especially on dirt. Front brake for stopping, rear brake for stability.
It's a Chris Birch one liner, but it's a pretty widely taught idea in general :)
Excellent as always and appropriate for me as I start this new riding season, thanks Llel!
Great to hear!
Superb video again and as always clearly filmed and explained with your usual calm simple instruction!! Top marks my friend...top marks👍👍👍👍👍
Ive learned to be more confident with the front tyre and finding the threshold of skidding a little through past over-confidence in my riding abilities resulting in an unplanned emergency panic brake 😅
😂
Great video, agree with everything you've said apart from pulling in the clutch whilst braking. The rear wheel wants to be connected to the engine for as long as possible. You'll stop quicker, be more stable and have greater control.
It's a good point and detail I overlooked.
Its amazing the quality of this channel (image, audio, content). 👍👍👍
Great video 👍🏻
Braking is such an important skill to develop and often neglected.
I like to incorporate a “braking accuracy” drill in my practice sessions.
After a rider has the practiced everything you covered so well in the video, the next drill I like to incorporate is having the rider experience how much distance is needed to come to a complete controlled stop. This should be done at different speeds and on different surfaces.
Once you have experienced how long it takes to safely stop… you can make better decisions about how fast you should be riding on the trail you are on.
100%. Such an overlooked part of braking.
@@BrakeMagazine
Often, I see riders practicing braking drills that are actually just long rear wheel slides until they come to a stop, as opposed to putting in a full effort to make the bike stop in the shortest distance possible.
Great video, thanks. You've inspired me to do some more drills, I'll be out in the hills tomorrow.
Nice one
I am [soon to be “was”] a front brake jabber, thinking pulsing the front was safer than constant pressure. Thanks for explaining why this just doesn’t work.
I’m so glad it helped!
Super helpful content! especially the bake brake first bit. i had been doing it but never thought about why it works. Besides over speed brake technique is probably responsible for the majority of rapid get off's.
Glad you liked it! Totally agree.
I enjoy all your videos.
I’d love to see you do another video on your Dakar experience, but with an emphasis on the costs involved. Entry fee, bike prep, mechanical support, parts, logistics etc.
It's probably a bit dated now, but it's not a bad idea!
Really enjoy and find your mini tip videos.
One thing I struggle with is the feel of the back break when standing up on the bike.I feel like I know what I should be doing just cant get my foot there because the way my knee is bent.. Maybe bike set up?
I like how this chanel is maturing.
Thanks!
Great explanation of brakes, I've been using the front to gain traction in tight dirt turns! Works well. Now if I could only perfect that accent, my "turns" with the ladies would also be *smooth"
What a frickin excellent video! S tier YT channel here.
Dunlop Trailmax Raid disadvantage is price, so I went to Mitas Enduro trail+ tyres. Last ones was Dunlop Trailmax Mission tyres and they last little over 30tkm... :) Let see what Mitas do.
Great vid, thank you! My critique would be that i prefer to remain neutral over the bike while breaking standing up, which actually means transferring weight to the back. I find this gives a better feeling of control and beings able to react as oppsed to weighting the front of the bike or bracing on the bars. The natural weight transfer of the bike to the front is more than enough to weight the front wheel for grip. Just my 2c. Cheers!
It absolutely is. I left the body position out as I think it’s a bit complex for a basic video, but you’re 100% correct.
4:47 Salut, je vois que tu as mis des jantes tubeless. Pourrais-tu m'indiquer le lien pour en acheter, please? Merci pour tes vidéos!
Now question do you own this Strom ? It's yet another vid with it .
Well I love! it I own one as well! best choice ever. Weak ago I was cruising down city didn't pay attention to speed but close to 65+ kph and the pedestrian decided to cross on crossing they did stop but I slammed on my brakes so hard that for the first time I felt abs kick in . Besides the fork dive I was surprised how quickly I could stop and the little distance It took was far away from the crosswalk. But after that I rood suspension for adjustment because the factory settings feels soft and squishy
went for a ride today on familiar backroads, usually around 50 to 60 with the sandy and corrugations, but had some extra confidence and really nice weather and managed to hit it at 100kph and keep speed in corners.. hit one bad bump and then lost all confidence for a while and back to 40kph for a bit but confidence really does play a huge role
It really does. I generally find it takes a dip when we get scared because we don't why what happened, happened. The brain needs more Data.
don't double the speed mate , ride it at 10 KMPH faster, til that feels easy then another 10 km bump ! 😊
Fundamental simplified....great video... Thanks from India
Glad it helped!
Love your content and thank you. How would you explain when to add downshifting/engine braking to your slowing technique and when? I'm more of a fan of including downshifting to my braking or slowing process when on tarmac/road (shifting up for speed and down to scrub off speed as I approach a turn) and engine braking (typically riding in a slightly lower gear) plus braking when on dirt. Curious about your opinion on this and when you would suggest utilizing downshifting and engine braking, to scrub off speed. Thanks.
WTF,rear brake first...This channel make me think and learn. Top stuff as usual. Cheers from Oz.👍
First time I heard someone mention something I noticed my first week of riding, that a little back brake compresses the suspension a bit and takes the edge off front end compression when you pull in the front brake.
Took me 15 years to notice 😂
Thanks
Progressive braking to weight the tire/compress suspension before you work the tire.
Great video. You said the dipping of the front helps increase brake power; does this mean my bikes “anti-dive” feature for the semi-active suspension is harmful to braking distance?
What bike?
not an expert: he mentions the forks squishing helps put more weight on the front tire this is because the force of deceleration becomes balanced by the forks pushing back up effectively transferring the weight forward. While the forks are squishing down to that point the forks are taking that forward energy rather then the tire so anti-dive would actually make that process happen way faster. Rather then the forks needing to squish down to transfer the weight it is almost immediately transferred.
Hope that makes sense!
Hi !
*I think that* : although you might have less maximum grip because of less weight shift, you might be able to obtain you maximum grip earlier.
While the fork is compressing, you don't have your maximum grip yet, because of the weight beING transfered to the front. The maximum grip is obtained when the fork is fully compressed.
I think : the softer the suspension, the slower the weight will be effectively applied to the front tire.
The harder, the faster. But you can't have a solid fork, as the shift would barely happen.
As anything, it's an equation.
These two comments are mostly correct. Anti dive does not remove the dive completely, it just stops the fork from completely collapsing through the stroke.
Sometimes we see the opposite end of that effect in longer travel bikes where on the road that can take a long time to actually generate any grip. Along the same path, overly soft long travel bikes can create unpredictable grip because they don't have much while the fork is compressing and then when it gets too low it can overload the grip level.
Anti dive or controlled suspension set-up are generally pretty good in this regard.
breaking I understand.. I need to learn how to get my front wheel over deep ruts.. when I am in 3rd gear, relatively low in the rev range of my Tenere 700, is there enough oomph to get the wheel up a few inches with a twist to the throtte and blipping the clutch?
With the correct body movement yes. Maybe 2nd on a T7, but it should be fine.
Semi-related question: I am just getting back to riding (track bikes and ADV [Multi V4 Rally] after foot surgery that at least temporarily reduced my ability to turn my left foot down and inward, meaning I cannot cram my off-road boots under the ADV bike shift lever, no matter how much I try to. That may change in time as I gain strength. So far, I’m just using my track boots on the Multistrada, which of course is not ideal. Do you have any suggestions on how to work around the problem? Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the Mini Tip Monday videos!
You could try learning to heel shift or there is a device that sits above and below your toe, like a double gear lever. I can remember the name now, but it's a great idea for this situation.
@@BrakeMagazine Thank you! I’ll give the heel shift a try and look up that gear lever.
I have drop foot from a previous accident and I find raising the gear lever a bit works a treat with mx book. All my shifting is done through my hip or by leaning back slightly while standing using the stiffness of the boot as leverage. Down shift are a slight lift of the boot to get on top of the shifter. 👍
Thanks! There isn’t much adjustment available on my bike, possibly due to the quick shifter, but I am going through physical therapy and hope to improve the situation soon. Yes, the full-on motocross boots really don’t have a lot of give!
Hello! I am riding a TRK 702x - a heavy bike (about 240 kg) could you guys recommend some handguards to support the fall of a heavy bike please?
Weight Transfer Magazine
Well explained
I'm off to redesign the logo 😂
I noticed that body position wasn't mentioned in the video, perhaps to keep it simple? As a mountain biker who transitioned to adventure riding, I've found that body position is crucial, especially during aggressive stopping. While brakes slow the bike, they don't control the rider's momentum. The ability to lock the hips and ankles effectively allows for more confident and forceful braking.
You are correct on all counts.
I think people could gain huge braking skill and confidence if they spent time on a moto X bike, enduro or a modern full suspension mountain bike. Easy to do a taster day or skills course. All these bike are light, have huge front end grip and great braking feel. It is daunting for the average rider to learn the limits of off-road braking on a 220kg bike with hugely variable tyres and brakes that might be front ABS, rear ABS, linked or setting dependent and front suspension that might be dive resistant (BMW) or very vague and soft.
Bear down and know your level of pressure.
Just gojngvto start off roading . Only ridden on roadcto date. Uour videos are great. I live in Yorkshire.
Do u do any skills training or could you recommend any. Thanks
I don’t anymore. I used to teach at Off Road Skills in Wales. The best in the UK I think.
How does that Dunlop trail max raid compare with the TXC 80 ?🎉
I think it’s a much better tyre. I think most modern ADV tyres are. The TKC is really quite old tyre tech and tread pattern ☺️
Brilliant episode as usual
Thanks!
Soooooo, starting with a bit of rear brake - does that hold true with linked brakes per the GS?
I think so, yes. It’ll be less pronounced with the Telelever but the brakes are linked Front to Back and not back to front.
what is the reason you don't have crash bars installed??
Outback Motortek didn't have them ready when this was filmed :)
Nice video , thanks
Glad you liked it
Great video Llel 👊🏻👊🏻
Legend!
Another fantastic video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
on the way to 100k! let's go!
So close!
It's a tad sad that Suzuki decided to equip the DE model with less powerful front brakes than the 17/19 model.
Good vid, thanks.
Glad you liked it!
got once a race track session day with police guys. Only thing without false modesty I know to do is braking ( at last one thing i manage ;) ). There was some contest.I made the shortest stop, but stalled the engine at the end, letting gear transmission connected and of course rear brake at end stopped it. All riders laugh by the police guys said it was proof of a very correct braking emergency.... If you look at modern cars technology, there is detection for fast braking, enhancing the power of brakes, because we all don't brake enough hard on the very few begin. Something you show in this video about importance to make front wheel first dig in ground before we can modulating less and less as speed slows down; exactly opposite of what we tend naturally, brake not enough then a lot at then end with no benefits....
I'm not convinced that it is based on pushing the tyre into the dirt. As I was taught in my Learners course, as you progressively apply the front brake, weight is transferred to the front wheel, this flattens the tyres creating a larger contact patch, thereby increasing stopping power. This I think is what you were meant to say.
You're welcome to not be convinced but it is. Let me explain in another way and you can try it and tell me.
Grip = Friction. When friction is high, grip is high.
If you take your thumb and lightly place it on the table, you can slide your thumb around easily. If you press down really hard with your thumb it becomes much harder to slide. The same rule applies to lots of things. if we drag an empty card board box across the floor it is easy. Put 20kg in the box and it is harder.
Now, the tyre will squish and get bigger, but not significantly. The contact patch of a front tyre isn't massive. It does make a difference, no doubt. If we perform the same experiment with out index finger instead of our thumb you will see. The index finger is a small percentage smaller. The difference in friction is small.
Hope that helps explain it!
@@BrakeMagazine What you just said validated what I had said. Push down harder on your thumb you flatten out the contact patch making it larger, whereby creating more friction.
See if it was a block of metal, the contact patch size would not change size, but as it is a squishy balloon in affect, if deforms and creates a larger contact patch to the surface it is pushed against.
Any physicists in the house, that would like disambiguate this?
@@the_explorerist I agreed that the tyre gets a bigger contact patch. I would suggest you go and watch the Brett Tckaks video on tyre pressures.
The deformation of a tyre makes a difference. So does the compound and the tread pattern. I already said that, but the deformation of tyre isn't the only reason you have grip, it a factor. A much bigger slice of the pie is the downward force. You could have the biggest surface area in the world, but without gravity the friction would be low. If we h.ad 2x gravity the friction would be higher
Add more downward force, get more friction, get more grip. If it was only about contact patch you could do all your stopping with the bigger rear tyre, with a bigger contact patch, but you can't because it's about generating downward force, to provide the grip to stop the wheel locking.
It's why when you're stopped on a hill, the front brake becomes completely ineffective and the rear brake becomes effective.
Hopefully that explains it :)
This would make sense, if it didn't completely ignore physics. Friction has nothing to do with surface area, or the size of the contact patch. It is simply the coefficient of friction X the normal force. Basically just how grippy the rubber and surface it's braking on are X how much force is being pushed through the tire into the ground. As you break, the normal force on the front tire will increase as the weight of the bike shifts forward. This creates additional friction, and therefore allows you to brake harder on the front wheel. The opposite happens on the rear wheel, which despite having a much larger surface area, doesn't have the same amount of breaking power due to the lack of normal force ( aka weight) .
Off road tire deformation probably plays into the equation a small amount as well, but not nearly as much as normal force. This is pretty much what the video and brake mags response has been stating, and lines up with basic physics principles. Can't say I am a physisist, but this is my understanding as a mechanical engineer, and with some basic googling to confirm my memory.
Oh no, this is so wrong, please, and i mean this in the nicest possible way, reeducate yourself, nothning more important that good underatanding for safe riding. The size of the contact patch has nothning to do with how well you brake. If you have 50kg over 1cm or 50kg over 100cm, nothning changes accept the area over wich that load is spread over. In other words increaseing the contact patch does nothning to help you stop faster. Actually it can make it worse. You know how they say if youre on ice you need to spread your weight over a larger surfuace not to brake the ice? Now imagine that in a limited traction enviorment like a gravel road. To prevent your tire from skidding arround you want to breake trough that slick surfuace into a hard packed enviorment below it, same in mud or sand. So if your tire spreads the load over a bigger contact patch, its less likely to brake trough the slick surfuace to the hard packed ground below said surfuace, effectively increaseing your braking distance. It should also be mentioned that adv/dualsport/dirt bikes come with narrower rims due to that reason. So in short, no, increased surface does not mean a shorter braking distance, and therefore should not be your goal, even if it happens naturally. If this dosent convince you, take a block of wood, put some string on it, put it in dirt, jump on it and drag it behind you. Now take a wooden spike, and do the same, see wich is harder to pull, ergo that one brakes better.
Personally I think the reason most beginners have confidence issues or braking problems is because of tyres like Dunlop Raids. I left motocross and found myself buying an adventure bike which came fitted with Conti TKC80s - now after a bit of research it seemed the adv bike world saw these as amazing off-road tyres. So I get to my first lane, it was a bit muddy and before I know it, it seemed everything I'd learnt from years of racing MX bikes had disappeared and I just couldn't ride this bike on these tyres down a simple lane. I now know, having taken my head out my ass, it wasn't the bike, it wasn't me, it was the tyres. I so wish there'd be a bit more of an honest conversation about tyres and the myths that go around - Dunlop D908s are a great tyre, will give people bags of grip off-road, work brilliantly on the wet grass of the campsite or a wet bastard lane - raids on wet grass?.... raids on a greasy wet cross camber?... Yes 908s aren't great on a wet road, so slow down - going on a road tour, put something different on, take the 908s off and put the raids on. I so feel novice riders are handicapping themselves by trying to learn off-road techniques whilst using wholly inappropriate tyres
Is agree with the sentiment, but there is some detail here. The ADV bike world generally has its head up its arse about tyres. Those on forums shout loudly with poor knowledge.
The TKC 80 is a shitty tyre. It was designed in 1988 and rides like it 😂 It is shockingly bad in wet mud, wet tarmac and generally okay on dry ground.
Modern ADV tyres are a lot better, but like you point out, are still limited and yes tyres make a difference. So does choosing where you do what you’re doing.
@@BrakeMagazine surely Llel, unless you know where you're going and have up to date details on trail conditions, there lies the problem and certainly if you're off on an adventure to somewhere you've never been before?
I agree, but I think the specificness of a tyre like 908RR is pretty high. It very works well in off-road conditions, but really poor on the street, especially on certain bikes.
I had the same with the Karoo Extreme. Genuinely phenomenal as ADV off-road tyre, but on my T7 project bike, a shocker on the road. Like actually a bit scary.
It's always about that balance, and for 85% of adventure riding, tyres like Karoo 4, Trailmax Raids and Anakee Wild's are really good. They struggle with very specific issues, mostly claggy mud and clay. Even on sodden trails in Wales, if the base has some rock they're really good and that's the compromise.
I covered this in the learning to ride mud video.
@@BrakeMagazine I think many tho Llel are trying to go where trail bikes go, doing the TET, green lanes in their local area etc and doing it generally on wholly inappropriate tyres - no one is riding their EXC 450 or FE501 on Dunlop Raids or Karoos, yet big bike riders are trying to follow the same route as many dirt bike riders but totally handicapping themselves with their tyre choice, never mind the 100kg weight penalty! Yes that means you can't go so quick on the road, you have to ease off and be careful, but when off road you won't keep losing your front end, braking levers and bending parts. I certainly think there needs to be an honest conversation about what is realistic on 50/50 tyres and what is to be gained and lost when you go way more aggressive with tread
All i ever heard for decades was hype about the TKC80. Finally tried one recently (rear) and it's hot garbage. There's no good pressure, it either feels like mush or a rock, and doesn't want to hook up anywhere. especially on pavement, it just chatters horribly in a drift and has no traction at all when rolled over. On dirt it's not very confidence inspiring, it's unpredictable breakout means you pitch it in and IT decides randomly when to step out lol. It also wore down in no time at all, i'd be lucky if i get 1000 miles from it, what a joke.
I SWEAR by the Dunlop D606s, those are the best i've ridden so far for all around. They're super solid on dirt, the do EXACTLY what you want when you want, and works with the same pressure on and offroad, so drifting on pavement feels just as stable as on dirt. You can feel a bit of knobby wobble when you're all the way over but it doesn't upset the bike.
Tusk Dsports weren't bad tires, they hooked up decently but the front for some reason felt really heavy and mushy on turn in, like it was fighting my countersteer.
I REALLY want to try the Michelin Baja tires, i've always loved Michelins for MTB, biketrials and freeride. I'm also curious about D605s, if they're similar to a 606 they should be good.
"be patient" is a solid tip. Been putting that into practice recently on downhills and those few extra feet make a big difference.
Nice buff!
Sure is!
Nice of you going full ARiemann1 on technical aspects.... love it....👍
It’s called progressive braking and every rider should learn it. I use progressive braking on an 800lb cruiser as it does not have abs. I will use that method on the off-road as well.
Good point!
Progressive braking is not always best. Measurements show that on good tarmac, the best choice can be to simply slam on the brakes and let ABS sort the weight transfer.
You realise the ABS is just doing the same thing right? It's just better than the average skill level. A skilled rider is still out braking or matching GOOD ABS.
The important distinction is ABS is not created equal. Sophisticated ABS systems, like those using BOSCH IMU's are good. Cheaper systems are still pretty rudimental and off road there are only 3 bikes I've ridden where the ABS is genuinely really good.
@@BrakeMagazine Absolutely. There are differences between ABSes, but modern ones are better than the vast majority of riders. I'm talking about the tarmac, of course, I don't have enough experience off road. We've had a discussion on the BMW R1200R forum about precisely this - progressive braking vs slamming on the brakes. Even the instruction manual for my R1250R says that optimal braking is progressive braking. But my experience has shown me that modern ABSes are so good, that an average rider has no chance of out-braking them.
So I went out and made some measurements using accelerometers on an Arduino and some custom software. I consider myself an above average rider, being a licensed motorcycle and car safety instructor, but I couldn't out-brake the ABS. While emergency braking from 40km/h to a stop, the ABS produced on average 0.1g better deceleration and the motorcycle stopped 1m earlier, then when I tried to brake progressively. I think that UA-cam deletes comments with links, so if you're interested in the experiment, get in contact with me and I'll send you the data.
I intend to involve some other instructors (to rule out my possible incompetence) and do the same experiment at higher speeds and hopefully older ABSes, but I suspect that the outcome will be similar.
Very Serious Question to cover in future episode: M/F/K - Lyndon Poskitt, Adam Reimann, & MotoBob
Okay god. Motored is getting the M. My man seems pretty mellow to share life with
reupload?
Bad audio on the original. It's taken two days to fix 🫣
@@BrakeMagazine thank you! btw got the Tuareg 660 and you influenced the decision a lot! LOVE IT
It’s all about managing friction.
Story of life no...
"100 points of traction"
No Jabba the Hutt…😂
reposting?
The first upload had an audio error.
There’s a generation of riders now relying on abs, TC and electronic rider programmes. Having learnt to ride 40+ years I’ve always used both my brakes depending on road conditions or when off-road. It’s like everything in life be committed, yet deliberate and observant of the conditions around you. Personally, I prefer riding with the abs off it negates reliance on digital aids that may actually cause you more trouble than help.
The opposite of confidence is diffident.
great video; 99% of riders just don't practice braking.....
Meh, brakes only slow you down, i don't use 'em.
Get a motocross bike and learn to ride properly first before going on the road a place that is far less forgiving that learning on a dirt bike and it takes a lot of effort to be good at anything. Learning to ride on the road is a fools paradise
Crappy delaminating tyres. Lotta people posting pictures of it, too.
I'd love to see some links to this. That's an interesting problem that I haven't had yet. I did just google it and can't find anything.
@@BrakeMagazine I remember people were sharing pictures and experiences in a Facebook group. Surprising amount of testemonies but I can't remember which one. I'll see if I can find it for you. The bike was a Suzuki Vstrom 800de. I don't remember if it was TET, but the guy said he just came from north Africa.
@@BrakeMagazine have you googled:
"dunlop tires problems"?
I did indeed and google gave me nothing.
brake _ does _ brake