The Most Overlooked Gravel Riding Skill | MiniTip Monday
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2021
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Riding gravel roads well on an adventure bike is a progressive process. It needs to be cautious, precise and careful. The consequences for over stepping your limits are high.
This MiniTip Monday is about learning to use the brakes to our advantage, not just for slowing down but for being incredibly precise with the wheels, suspension, throttle and brakes to allow us to roll through the corners controlled and efficiently. I think this is probably the most overlooked gravel riding skill, it's really that good!
If you've got any questions don't hesitate to ask! - Авто та транспорт
Thankyou Llewellyn. At 66 yrs, your vids have improved my riding no end. Have been practicing this and have incorporated it into my daily riding over the last 5 years, off-road and on. Its become and ingrained skill. I feel like a youngster again. Never to old to learn!
Also 66. Bought a little klx230 for the mileage and because I travel some gravel roads. Haven’t ridden since 1981 tho and was deathly afraid of gravel back then so need to build some skills to combat the fear and bad habits. Llewellyn’s explanation of using the brakes, including the front, to load the suspension makes perfect sense. But there’s gravel like this video and then there’s gravel that’s 2-3” deep of 1/2” diameter rounded stones and not a curve in sight. Manitoba, Canada. Cheering you on🍻
How do people say what’s once you’ve fallen off a horse you should get back on it and start doing it again, which I’m gonna do it again. All I want is people to support me as much as I possibly can and make new friends to help me on my journey to do my CBT and get my A license and once of achieved that I want to do the adventure, riding and touring. I’m living on my own. I’m divorced. I’m a big football fan West Ham but I want to try new and fantastic new things if anyone can help me be much appreciated
And I’m 52 years of age
@@geoffgauci7590get yourself a crf or klx and join the trf, a lot of them are in 40s/50s and upwards, you'll learn a lot, have the support and find yourself on great rides, would make a great foundation if you wanted to move onto an adventure bike with bigger trips on your own or again with trf people who also do adventure bike rideouts
I'm reading all the ages here and wish we could hang out! (50y)
Personally, what helped me the most on loose surfaces or off road, was simply keeping 'eyes up' looking as far ahead as is practicable. When looking down close to you, one's focus becomes reactionary and your balance is totally off as the head is down and your body will compensate. It sounds weird, but try it, keep your eyes up focusing ahead and watch how stable the bike becomes and your speed off-road improves.
Been riding 50years. You insrtuction makes me feel like a beginner. Fantastic stuff.
Glad to help!
Coming from a dirtbike background I found it natural to ride on dirt roads on a adventure bike, I think if you have the opportunity to ride a dirtbike first before going on a big adventure bike you'll find it alot easier when you make that leap.
Most riders that i know (including myself) started with heavy bikes, then lighter, then lighter, then 2T on a track. Riding dirt fast on heavy bikes, like GS1250 does not make sense. It is high price to pay if fail- in money and your heath. In video cornering standing look cool, but these bikes are not designed to ride in attack position and nothing can be changed. I still ride 650cc on gravel, but slow and safe. btw trail braking is good thing on a bike.
@@tomaslight I ride R1250 GSA and I wouldn't be taking those corners on gravel at the speeds he's taking them but I would likely be on my feet rather than my rearend. What I've come to learn about riding a heavy bike offroad is that sometimes you need more speed than the little guys, some times you go slower. It's a little bit different skill set because sometimes the weight helps, sometimes it doesn't. But letting the bike do bike things unhindered is always a good thing and you have to get on your feet to let it move around under you. Rest where appropriate, and a gravel track like that is nice clean stretch of road where a rider can rest a bit if you slow down. A lot less risk of losing traction if you aren't trying to push your grip to it's limits.
I take my GSA on single tracks where 450s and smaller are prefered. Everyone is always amazed at how the big girl can perform. I keep saying it that the real limit of any motorcycle is the rider.
Thank you! This is the BEST explanation of trail braking I've heard yet!
+1
Really well explained. The maintaining the "attitude of the bike" is spot on... Work with the suspension, don't fight it.
Yes!
It’s been 3 years that i practice trail braking in most corners on asphalt; i love it; i didn’t knew i could also do it on gravel roads; thanks a lot; i will try it in my next ride; best regards from Montreal.
Same. Looking forward to trying it.
Thank you !
I was always told to never use the front brake cornering ~ trusted my friend and did it !
Didn't lose one corner on the last trip learning & trusting this skill.
I have never really thought about it in dirt but it makes sense. Thanks.
This transformed my riding on dirt and gravel in a huge way! I'm much faster and ride with alot more control! Thank you very much!
Thanks for this video, I'll start working on this on my next ride!
For those who wonder of you can use this technique on a non-ABS bike, you surely can but you need to drag and modulate especially the front brake and very light application on the rear brake, or no rear at all (useful in straight line). Also move forward to put weight on the front, elbows up. Comined with the engine braking as mentioned here, it is more stable that you think even on really loose gravel.
Looking forward to putting these skills to use! Thanks for such brilliant and clear videos!
Hi, best mini tip monday ever! Great video, phenomenal descrition. Thanks a lot
Thanks Ricardo!
I just spent five days of scootering around the remote parts of the states of Utah and Wyoming. The entire time I focused on improving my techniques and this very video kept echoing in my head. While very few turns were as smooth as in the video - without additional factors of concern such as larger lose/embedded boulders, deep sandy ruts, flowing water, mud, washouts, etc. - the technique of trail braking worked like a charm and I’m gradually improving at it.
While fancy foot-work on the rear brake pedal is still developing for me, and later braking is also a skill that needs improving, I feel tremendously more confident in most turns now. Yes, the added traction is indeed a game changer.
I so wish I had been taught about it many years ago.
My sincerest gratitude.
Excellent video and explaination! I am coasting into gravel corners and now I know why it feels unsettled. Can't wait until my ankle heals and I start practicing trail braking!
Hope it heals quick!
Thanks! Can't wait to put this to practice!
Excellent instructional video as always 👍
One thing from my experience is that trail braking is truly something that can only be perfected with practice. It is a perishable skill because you end up losing the "feel" for it the less often times you do it. I always make it a point to trailbrake every corner...and I ride city streets. I am definitely very far from being perfect with it but I enjoy every time I get it right.
Totally agree!
Right on bro!
You mean I have to ride my motorbike more to keep up my skills? Oh what a pity hahaha :D
Love watching your stuff Llel. Perfect UA-cam. Great filming & editing, passionate about the subject and great at passing it on effectively. Sublime stuff. But you know the best bit? That you can do this with your dad.
Keep it up and see you when I get round to Level 2!
Thanks, this was exactly what i needed. I just started riding off road and coasting on gravel corners just feels really sketchy. It feels like if i do one wrong movement i wash out. Ill definitely give this a try, makes complete sense from a logic standpoint. Thanks for the clear and to the point video.
Thanks Mike! Let us know how you get on!
I began doing this by trial and error but didn't realize that was the "trail braking" I'd been hearing about until now. Thanks for the clarification.
Same here, I noticed on my chopper that accelerating and braking constantly makes my ride safer. Instead of just riding in the city at a constant speed.
I think that how naturally someone rides a motorcycle depends somewhat on how much they rode a bike as a kid -- most of these instructional videos seem like just common sense.
Thanks for this video. I started trail braking on the street a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference in my confidence. I never really considered it on dirt until watching this video the other day. Much to my surprise it felt really good. I'm very excited about practicing it in the future. I'm also shocked at how many people are resistant to trail braking in general. They all seem to argue that it is dangerous and should be reserved for racers on the track. Truth be known we all trail brake with our cars every time we go around a corner. I consider it one of the most important skills to learn and it's not really difficult to learn.
@@shaundisch2020 Tell me you have 0 idea how trailbraking works without telling me you have 0 idea how it works. :)
Very well explained and the breakdown on the video and graphics helped make this a well demonstrated concept. Thanks a lot.
Thanks and thanks for watching 🙂
You deserve way more subs! Excellent video! Keep it up.
Thanks! I'm working on it 😂
Great tips! Hits the Demo nicely. Saving Lives is cool! I ride in the Appalachian Mountains on Forest Service/Gravel Rural with mostly blind corners with all types of 2 way traffic (Logging Trucks!!) and stress the importance of these tips to everyone riding with me..
So well articulated-well done ✅ . The key here it seems is to be extremely gradual in engaging the brakes.
Relatively so yes!
Awesome video chap, and explains one of my issues around braking before the corner, then unsettling the bike by coming off the brakes. Will definitely practice this!
Glad it helped! Maybe we should find a place to practice together 😉
Just started doing this on the road, really didn't now I can do the same off road. Thanks for your tips over the years!
Glad to help! Thanks for watching :)
Going to give this a go this weekend. Thanks.
Love to hear how it goes!
very helpful ... thank you.
Always good content. Thank you.
Cheers Paul. Thanks for watching!
Want more grip in the corners, increased accuracy of your lines, less chance of binning it?
Trail Braking.
Great video guys.
Thanks for watching Stephen!
Great lesson..thanks for video.
A+. Love mini tip Monday.
Cheers!
Very helpful! Thanks!
As always .Clear and precise thanks for the tip this will be something I will remember.cheers from Australia
Thanks for giving us time!
I agrée this is an overlooked skill… one I am trying to develop. Thanks for this!
Beautifully explained.
Thanks!
Thank you for the video. Excellent tips and a skill we can all get better at.
Thanks Giant Loop!
Awesome 🔥
Well put sir.
So true!
I wanted to hear more about body positioning over the bike and bike positioning too.
I've always has this question regarding long corners and trail braking. You reduce the speed before the corner, you decrease pressure as you get into the corner and add lean angle and keep just a tiny bit of break. However, the corner is so long that the tiny bit of breaking slows you too much and even if you loosen the break the motorcycle keeps slowing due to engine breaking. In these cases I add a tiny bit of acceleration to keep the speed but that changes the bike geometry and I loose a lot of the advantages of this technique. Is there a better way to deal with those?
Great video
I think you break to much. That is not trail-breaking, but just breaking in the corner. TB is just touching the breaks, not adjusting your speed much. Don't think you are supposed to get to 0% throttle. Then you can lose the back, and get a really cool Marc Marquez slide, in the corner. 😳😀
I’ve been practicing trail braking on the street for some years, with great results. However, I’ve always assumed that the grip levels on gravel roads would be too low to do it there, but will try ASAP.
Btw, one thing that wasn’t explicitly mentioned is to also overlap the braking and throttle. That is, while nearly at the apex apply a small amount of throttle BEFORE letting go of the brake (your brake pressure should be minimal at this point) and then smoothly increase the throttle while letting go of the brake. This way you avoid that slight “hiccup” when switching from braking to applying the gas.
I was wondering about that too. usually that's the part that requires the most skill and practice.
agreed, especially with modern epa compliant bikes that use a fuel cut off on decel which can make the throttle feel a bit snatchy on application. It’s one of those things that’s very hard to master but extremely satisfying when you get it right
Trail braking on the street really goes against any form of UK advanced riding. I wouldn’t bother. If you are trail braking on the street, you are going too fast
@MrYawn1 I have never ridden in the UK, but I see no reason, why trail braking wouldn't be applicable there?
I ride a 640 ktm which feels big and all the knowledge I can get helps immensely.
Very good tip. I will practice this a lot!
You got this!
The best. Many thanks. I rode with a group of guys that shunned criticized going into corners. I knew they wrong
Great video well explained. Thx!
Thanks for watching Steve!
I apply the same principle to riding in the rain, although in the rain the front brake is peeled off slightly before the rear. You didn't mention foot peg weighting which I thought would go hand in hand with your excellent video. The reason I mention this is because there are newbies out there that are not aware of weighting the outside foot peg and what it does. Thankyou for sharing 👍
You haven't watched the next video in the series yet 😏
Fantastic! I love MT Mondays!
I love your profile pic!
LOL! I’m a grumpy sod!
Great video. I have to remind myself to load the front suspension more going into turn. Hope to see more of these off-road tips. Excellent. Kam in USA
We make a fairly large amount of them! Next one in a couple of weeks :D
Great tip thanks
Great video! Thank you.
You're welcome! Thanks for watching!
Great vid - thanks! I ride "backwards" (no, not that kind of backwards), I start out on gavel, then ride to pavement.I live from 5 to 8 miles away from nearest pavement, depending on which route I take from my home. I ride a dirt bike (street legal / knobbies) a commuter 300 (Mitas E07 rubber) and a bone stock Vstrom 650 with OEM tires. It's always fun to try to remember which bike/tires I'm on from one day to the next. Any tip to help on gravel is appreciated. Thanks again! -Ray, from the wilderness near Durango, CO
Game changer... Thank you!
You're welcome!
This totally explains why when I feel like I am "riding aggressively" I feel more traction... when I ride harder I tend to brake later and further into the corner!
That'll be why!
I'm trying to visualize how this feels. Before trail breaking, I would apply both brakes in a straight line before the curve then accelerate out of the curve. So with this technique, do I still slow down before the curve but still leave a little too much speed I know has to be taken up with trail braking in the curve? I'm just trying to prepare my mindset.
Try it on pavement first. It's almost the identical techniques. Find a section of curvy road you know very well and carry a little more speed into the corner than you normally would and use your front brake to finish bringing you down to a comfortable speed. Roll onto the throttle as you release the brake on the way out. Just remember you are not on a race track.
The reason is this: pavement has way more traction and will be way more forgiving if you make a mistake as in not crashing at all. While you're out there you can transition to a groomed gravel road where there shouldn't be any big surprises half way through a corner.
Then hit a familiar trail.
It's best to ramp up a new skill.
One day i would love to adventure ride out in country like that. Absolutely beautiful!!
Works in a car too I find, especially when it’s wet or there’s snow on the road. You absolutely cannot be harsh with the application and have to feel the weight balance transfer, it makes riding and driving sooooo much smoother
So this explains why braking in a straight line before the corner then coasting through it is making the bike lose grip. Thankyou. It's taken me a long time to realise this mistake👍
No.. Not lose grip.. It makes the bike more stable.
@@cooleyballs1 Trailbraking undeniably increases the available grip
so what phil said was not wrong.
By the way, another thing you do when braking and compressing the fork is shortening the wheelbase, and increasing effective steering-head angle due to the dive in the front. This makes the bike more nimble and in combination with the additional grip you get from the load on the front, is ideal for cornering.
great vid! more on board explanation pls!
Thanks mate, great explanation
No problem 👍 Thanks for watching!
I agree 100% with trail breaking . But my only experience riding BMW Boxers ,was in the early 80s, riding my friends R75 s and R80s in Germany's Black Forest . I was with the Canadian Army during that period and i must admit that seeing somebody trailbreaking a Boxer, made me gringe. Great Video
Glad you liked it! They've changed a bit since then 🤣
Greetings from Lahr, Black Forest, canadian are fine people there! 👍😏😀
I agree with all you say, but it is funny you used a BMW telelever bike for the demo since those do not compress much under braking!
I found the Karoo 3's and Pirellis I have on now also made a hell of a difference in my confidence to trail brake on gravel.That road in the video is endless in Colombia and a lot more tropical.The other fun part here is red Saprolite mud-add it in to that road in a random manner just for 30-50 meters where there was a landslide.Gravel aint too bad-Red mud will give you 3rd degree skids-in yer keks mind you!
I like the tyres on gravel a lot too. They're really nice feeling! That red mud, especially when it's wet it terrifying. We get some of it here too 🤣
BACK IT IN BABY!!!
love taking the Road King out on the gravel
I live in NZ and locally have very twisty and steep unsealed roads which can have deep gravel or smooth clay. They are often steeply cambered from the crown of the road. Trail braking works exactly as you demonstrate but it must be tuned to what you are riding over. My bike is old, heavy and has road biased rubber. I have to transition from the brakes to the throttle before I get much lean on in a lot of places, often before the apex on corners which wind back on themselves. A few pairs of undies had gone in the bin before I got the balance of brakes and throttle right.
A video of what to do when the front cries enough and how to use the throttle to balance and steer the bike through a scary corner would go a bit deeper down the rabbit hole and may save some plastic.
Excellent vid, a scary number of riders still consider trail braking to be pointless or dangerous.
Same. I’m Oz and find that steep downhills with a right hander at the bottom with steep camber and loose gravel over clay are particularly challenging. As you’re already braking moderately on the downhill, by the time you get to the corner there isn’t enough cornering capacity or grip to get around without the front end washing out. So you either cut the corner to shorten the turn (bad idea) or run it wide with a high risk of washing out the front under brakes. Either way, arsehole pucker factor is quite high.
Great video as always! Imho, it would be even greater with a camera angle showing the work with the front brake and the throttle, at least for a noob like me! 😁
Good idea!
I am 53, been riding since I was 10, never heard anyone explain this.
And, value the time riding with your father. Priceless...
A great vid , I thought tyre pressures may have been mentioned, but maybe thats another topic. Well done.
This was new for me, really interesting. I'm sure this will be good stuff, gonna try i in the weekend :-)
Thanks for this amazing video. Good to know about the trail breaking.
Last week I have an accident on my KTM 1290
My front wheel went into a small mountain of loose and deep gravel with a bit of soft sand, and it started moving everywhere like a shimmy/Wobble, I don't remember touching the brakes, I remember keeping the accelerator, but I could not control it and directly to the ground.
Can I ask you some questions to help to avoid this in the future, please?
1. what to do in these situations when the front tire start moving/Wobble in gravel
2. were put the body weight in gravel and deep gravel roads? Put the body weight more to the front or in to the read tire like sand?
3. what is the correct setup of the traction control on gravel roads in off-road mode or completely off?
4. my ktm has an adjustable steering damper, I don't know if put it on hard/tighter position is good or rather bad in these situations? Or in gravel/sand roads. Putting it too hard can limit the self-alignment of the front wheel, the same effect as if I were holding it too tight?
thanks a lot!!
That sequence at 6:45 where your dad demonstrates is super pedagogical. More of that sort please. Either by rider following or using drone.
You saying his dad could be replaced by a drone? LOL
absolutely this... it was incredibly helpful just to see it in action while it was being explained.
Pedagogical!!!
I wish I had a road like that near me!
Do the GS’s in your video have the Sports Suspension/20mm longer? How do you find this compared to the standard GS suspension?
Great information thanks.👍🇨🇦
You're welcome Tom!
Awesome tip video, well done guys! And the comment award of the day goes to..."those people are wrong..." 😁
🤣🤣 I'd been doing some research and it irritated me 😅
Awesome
With the linked brakes on the GS are you using only front brake lever pressure?
Amazing video and advice all the way. Is the clip filmed in Wales?
Yeah it was!
Awesome information! All my riding is trail/ challenging Enduro and cornering is definitely a weak point on the trail for me for the very reasons you described. I'm going to start practicing this. For some odd reason it seems as right hand turns are more problematic for me. Anyone else get that too?
Sure. Keep practicing them and make your corner basics are all right. We have a MTM coming soon on that subject!
Steep Gravel hills with turns still bring me anxiety
Proper braking is important but it’s secondary to shifting your weight to the inside foot peg (turning left weight the left foot peg, right turn weight the right foot peg). This places your full body weight on the tire contact patch on the inside of the turn.
I'm sorry, but this isn't quite right.
If you ride dirt bike with friends and they start correcting you with all sorts of this kind of advice, one thing that might stop all of that is to let them ride your bike for awhile. Not all bikes handle the same.
thanks for the advice, I'll have a crack at it. Whats your advice on body position in corners, I tend to weight the outside peg and position myself accordingly on gravel/dirt roads I find it grips better going into or at the apex of a corner
Spot on!!
Very very interesting!!! Just wondering if it works even on a climb...is that technique applicable? Thank you!!
Careful on sandy corners though, keep the momentum up and don't put too much wait on the front
Brilliant video. Where abouts was this filmed? Would love to try these tips on that exact road! 🤞🏻
South Wales. One of the trails is UCR near Coelbren and the other a UCR near Sennybridge.
Does this apply only to front brake or also to the rear?
Great video, one thing though, you talk about using both front and rear brakes progressively, however on BMW r1250's the front brake also applies pressure on the rear brake, on the new 21's this also happens in Enduro Pro mode although to a lesser extent, just asking if you think that matters and that the electronic assist is better being supplemented by direct rider input?
My understanding is that since the linked brakes were introduced they've always worked in every mode. It's a permanent link.
When I personally ride a GS a predominantly use the front brake to do both. This is often because the rear brake pressure is quite often spot on. However, there are also plenty of times where the rear brake is important.
The answer is really situational and depends but importantly the rear still has a place in your riding on a GS.
I will have to give this a try. I trail brake with the rear only, and use the throttle to hustle quickly around loose gravel. I’ve always been told to stay away from the front brake.
That's interesting? Who told you that?
The front brake is really the primary control for stopping on and off-road 🙂
Brake Magazine Oh it’s used heavily on road, but was told to be very gingerly with it off road.
@@sarahdell4042 If it helps I did a video a few years ago on braking using the front brake 🙂
I have always trail braked on a street bike but I didn't know I could do this on an adv bike on the dirt so what your say is use both brakes to trail brake not just the front? Oh and what about on sand roads?
All good info. with one caveat:
Front wheel traction.
With ABS on in the front, less of an issue.
With no ABS on in the front, traction is critical.
When in doubt about your front wheel traction, best to go rear brake only.
Glen, I'm sorry but this isn't advice I agree with. When its slippery use the correct amount of front brake.
Firstly great, lucid video.
So having tucked the front end of my Fizzy 46 years ago I’ve never since braked deep into a corner. I have the cornering speed (and probably skills) of that Fizzy still, albeit on a rather large BMW as shown in the video. 15-20 years ago I was fortunate enough to have Pavey senior run me through the off road skills course and power slides on the old 1150, then 650 and finally the 1200. It was an amazing experience.
Sadly I still coast up to corners and drift round with the aimlessness that’s bought me to a sensible age in life. Counter steering again is another skill passed me by, I try but it just feels like you’re trying too hard. I hardly ever ride on the dirt now so maybe I might have to book in for another two day course in Wales - even if it’s to improve my one road skills…
Maybe a stupid question, but when you talk about trail braking, is this for the front and rear brakes or just the front or just the rear brake,old road rider, but new off road rider, and loving it but will love it more with more experiance.
Either front only or both brakes.
Still don't get why you have so few subscribers. Great video... as usual. Thanks.
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully we get there!
Excellent video. What’s your advice regarding tyre pressure on gravel vs sealed roads? I’d expect approx 4-5 decrease in PSI from road tyre air pressure would enhance grip; what are your thoughts?
It entirely depends on the tyre and the weight of the bike. Some tyres work well around 20 psi and some work well at road pressures. The Karoo 3 is awful when you drop the pressure but the TKC 80 improves massively.
@@BrakeMagazine I'd always 'deflated' when going off road, KTM 950 - 690, then had a chat with a certain Mr S Pavey who advised that modern tyre on big adventures ( now have a 790) should not be. then i did something strange and read the manual, normally, keep the pressures normal, in extreme deflate to 28psi. just done 3 days on the borderlands TET at 34psi, felt great.