Your channel is an eclipse where blue collar and rocket science meet together. I absolutely love watching all those videos. I’m currently working on a 12 valve swap into my Land Cruiser, and an M57 turbo diesel swap into my 72’ BMW 2002. Thank you for the inspiring content.
I think you mean the mandoria of a Venn Diagram with "blue collar" and "science" overlapping - and I 100 agree! 👍😎 Historically, though, many scientists were also "blue collar" workers, because they had to design, and build, their own equipment 😎 Same thing with engineers.
Speaking of the RV market, that is a brilliant place to start small and grow the rolling chassis setup. In fact, perhaps the best place. I can imagine Overland style rigs with 4x4 from electric, max torque and small diesel being a Unicorn setup with great demand too.
Pulse the RV industry just got hit with Banns in California and 5 states followed. New hybrid power train Edison motor-home makes lots of sense. No need to a Aux generator. Big battery for the week of camping, then fire up the generator and head home.
Even a bigger RV would benefit from that. You don't need the small generator anymore and really most people buying those wouldn't mind adding 40-50k on top of a 400k RV if they can double their fuel efficiency and remove a lot of the drivetrain that needs servicing. Even if you just do the class C chassis there's a huge market for that. Class A would benefit from the same tech as your logging trucks. Retrofit or install on a new frame before it goes to the manufacturer to have the body built.
Not an RV, but I’m absolutely looking at taking an old work van and converting it into a diesel electric camper van. It’s a full size axle on a full size frame, anyways.
Because everyone has $100k to drop on those axles, batteries, wiring, labor etc. This is not going to be something a common man can afford for a long long time.
I think there is a definite use case to build the chassis as a middle ground. It would be a platform that could be used by a cab building partner for a proper truck, a retrofit kit, and it sounds like there is potential for other partnerships (rv’s) to help offset the development cost.
@@calebkzThe RV market would be huge, as there's so many people who would be charging the battery pack from their photovoltaic systems and then using the generator as a backup to that.
@rangerismine People mention that movie and book but forget to mention that the Bradley is an extremely successful vehicle. In many battles, it got more enemy tank kills than the M1Abrams and can still carry troops.
@ You’re definitely right. I think the point of the movie was just to show the expensive continual development and moving goalpost in a lot of government projects.
From a perspective from an IT person who works on cars in his own spare time... complete e-axles with core exchange would be the best solution. Quality of build of the e-axel is guaranteed as it was built in house per design specs. In addition, built units are ready to shipped/installed VS taking an existing unit, cutting it up and converting it to an e-axel. Conversion shops can stock up several units/kits while sending core units out to be converted. If there are any issues with an e-axel during the install, another can take's it place while "repair" is performed on the affected e-axel. The engine and generator is straight forward since it replaced the existing engine and trans. The challenge is finding a location for the battery pack. For the best fit and to get as much power capacity as possible, the existing gas tank would need to be moved or replaced. If replaced, you would need to think about diesel capacity VS battery capacity VS range on max load. There needs to be a balance. Too small of a battery, the generator needs to be on more often, too small of a fuel tank, more trips to the pump. If you can get 300-500 miles (~500-800km) out of a 10-15 gal tank, under load, this kit will be worth every penny. For the every day blue collar worker, filling up a 15 gal tank with diesel @ $3.54 US, comes out to be about $53 US. Versus filling up a F-350 that has a 35 gal tank, which would cost you around $124 US. You will use more diesel under load vs using electric motors, if electric motor and batteries are spec'ed right. How much of the truck's load capacity becomes a moot argument once converted because of all of the torque. It would be a matter of how strong is the frame and is re-enforcement needed for handling the new power output. Just my thoughts.
Just for an apples to oranges comparison -- my Rivian r1t truck with mixed use has been getting about 2.2 miles per kwh. 500 miles of range is costing me about $35 at home electricity rates (rural MA) or about $90 at the superfast charger beside the highway.
@FeldorS You're correct. The numbers i provided was imaginary and not real world. I don't expect a R1T loaded with 1000+ lbs of equipment on a day to day basis for work, or towing a goose neck flat bed trailer pulling 15,000+ lbs of cargo. Definitely apples to oranges comparison. If a converted F-350, or equivalent, truck can get 500 miles in between 15 gal fill ups while towing over 15,000 lbs, that is amazing. 30ish mpg with the conversion (15gal tank//500mile range), since diesel is still being used, versus only running off the factory diesel at around 7-9mpg ish, towing 15,000lbs. Again the conversion numbers are speculation since there isn't a converted truck in existence to actually have a mpg test.
You can tell this is a group of designers, fabricators, and mechanics that will just get shit done AND the solution will outlive their grandchildren!!!!
That so cool you mention RV’s because I was in the process of typing out a comment of how revolutionary this could be for the RV Market. I think the 4x4 segment of RV market is growing and it’s largely untapped and underestimated. I think the desire and need for 4x4 is there but the consumer has very few options. You offering a 4x4 option coupled with the diesel/electric system could be an absolute game changer. I’d love to see a conversion package but I also think if you developed a complete chassis/drivetrain like something that could compete with the ford f53 class a chassis the RV manufacturers would take notice.
I was also thinking about the RV while I was looking at it, this is exactly what I need, a house with its own diesel integrated power plant, producing peak power higher than any portable generator, with all-wheel drive and solar panels on the roof. The setup I would like to have
Might I recommend Grede. I know you guys might want this as Canadian as possible, but Reedsburg, Wisconsin might as well be Camada. I'm actually a project engineer in foundry engineering there, and we frequently discuss Edison and what ya'll are doing with a great level of admiration. We can make a thousand tons/day of automotive ductile iron castings and own some of our own machine shops.
Wow that’s crazy to hear reedsberg. My grandparents used to own and operate copper springs motel in reedsburg! Spent many a summers there as a child with them.
If you guys do a chassis for the RV builders, you’d also be perfectly positioned to sell rolling chassis to the step-van builders. The diesel electric hybrid would be perfect for delivery vehicles, and a contract with FedEx or UPS seems totally realistic!!
I love seeing "regular" people build stuff. I can't get enough of this RnD/build! Regarding the rolling chassis idea... I know it's a totally different situation, but when I originally bought my 1967 C30, I was planning to do a Ford 4X4 swap on the original chassis....however after alot of thought, I realized it would be MUCH less work to start with a complete Ford chassis. Especially since I was going to be using a ZF6/manual shift tcase, on top of the Ford axles/driveshafts. Not only would I be starting with all original mounts, transmission crossmember, etc. But it saved me from having to completely fabricate all new custom suspension, and allow me to utilize already engineered aftermarket Ford suspension options. (which I plan to do.) On top of that, I was going to have to modify and shorten the c30 frame ANYWAYS. I'll still have to swap the cab over, but now I have a complete (albeit shortened) chasis, suspension, steering, etc. Anything underneath the cab is going to be available off the shelf from Ford, outside of the steering column, wiring, and shortened rear driveshaft. (And of course, the old Deutz under the hood!) I'm not saying that a universal chassis makes sense, but it might be reasonable to have some sort of core, or exchange program where you have 2 or 3 models of pre-built chassis that can be utilized. Build up a chassis, swap the customers body on, keep their chassis, and start the process over again. It would dramatically reduce turnaround times, as well as potentially eliminate any unexpected surprises that arise when modifying/dealing with miled-out rigs.
But also, making a universal chassis might not even be feasible. You'd have to design it based around the narrowest option you can find, because (like with my build) having wider frame rails makes it a royal PITA to do up cab mounts, without a body lift. You'd have to design a million different cab mounts, and measure up every single style of truck for height and spacing. Say, for example, you are looking at 08-16 Ford superduty: the mounts between crew cabs, extended cabs, regular cabs, etc, are all at different heights and spacing. Sometimes it's alot easier to piggyback a known and proven quantity than reinvent the wheel.
When I worked at CAT we used a freezer to shrink the timing gear shaft to slip fit it into the hole. Heat / cold can do the same thing, very cool.... Thx for sharing , very nice work.... We used hydraulics to pull the shafts out when needed.
Make sure your dif cover hugs the ring gear enough to splash the oil up to the top components. I've seen these shiny finned covers destroy the pumpkin because the openness of the cover didn't draw oil up far enough. Love this project!
[12:30] FWIW, you can place the part on any photocopier/scanner along with a piece of known dimensions, import the scan into your CAD software, and then place the holes so that they precisely line up with the scan. It's an _ooooold_ trick.
For heavier items that won't fit on a flatbed scanner, you can also lay a piece of paper over it. Tear the paper off a crayon, or a piece of colored chalk, and turn it sideways against the paper and rub the whole part to get an imprint of the whole surface, and scan that.
As anybody else does, they're buying a lot of stuff from china. The cummins is from china, the electric motors are from china, the batteries and the generator too. Not to criticize them, if they want this to succeed, they have to think economically. And since everyone in north america wants to earn 50$ an hour, it's much more economical to get shit from china
@@klapaucius77 Oh that's awesome! I'm waiting on my morning meetings to be over to watch this but chomping at the bit! Thanks for the reply and correcting me!
@@klapaucius77 Mhm. But at the moment everything comes from China. Even the Cummins R2.8 Come on man they didn't make a big trip to china and talked to companies there just to buy a two electric axles and one R2.8
this project is epic .. i cannot wait to see this run and benchmark. with the 2.8 properly tuned i feel this project will challenge the upcoming 2025-ramchager for range .. and you beautiful lunatic you BUILT IT IN A GARAGE, and did not spend more than half a billion in R&D.. ram/dodge should be paying attention to this build.
Absolutely love the idea and creativity behind this conversion. Can't wait to get my hands on one for a 2010 Chevrolet 2500HD. I don't plan to ever sale this truck and will be putting a new motor in it once the 6.0 gasser dies. This conversion would be the absolute best possible outcome for my truck. Solid front axle conversion and diesel/hybrid electric drivetrain.
Wow. That was intense. That’s a hell of a team you have there. It’s inspiring to see this come together. I need to see this truck rolling down the road. Liked and subbed.
I think the way you guys did the Modular idea is great. the only part you will have to make custom for certain trucks (original axles) will be the collar to fit the axle tubes to the gear case. The only thing i see as a "loss" is that you have to cut up a potentially good axle to make a new one. Making new axle tubes would be extra cost, which may be required for some original axles for stability. Love to see the process! Will be interesting to see the dual motor version of that. Weight balance might be a bit difficult with that.
In my personal opinion, most trucks in Canada and northern states deal with rusted out frames, it would amazing to have a GM rolling chassis that would work for GM, one for ford, one for ram. That way you get to put the body style truck you like on the new chassis and know that that your whole undercarriage is brand new, then you could still sell to rv manufacturers and upfitters
16:42 - An electric pottery kiln does wonders for heating up small to medium sized parts fairly accurately, and even one with a basic controller can hold set temperature for a set time.
Just a suggestion;do one thing at a time and do it well. As you perfect it, your production speed will increase and that equals profit, in time. Love your company, your ideas and especially your people. Never give up.
I think a small to medium class C motorhome would be the perfect use case for something like this. you could have larger battery set and also use the batteries and generator to power the living space.
Wow! Thats some work, congrats guys. A rolling chassis would be great but thinking of overseas clients, like myself, I see an axle replacement a better option. Registering vehicles is so different in other areas, for instance, here, I need the original number plate to match the original chassis number to be able to keep it on the road. The fewer new parts, the easier I would see it being. Keep up the great work 👍
i would first break into a 5500 chassis cabv for class C RV's and then go from there to a lightweight edison semi based cab and chassis for Toter Homes. big money market there and lets you develop your eventual OTR cab for multiple markets.
It is so neat to see these young people see a issue and solve it. They are so bright I would love to be in the same room with them just to hear and see the problem solving that goes on. Our world will be just fine with young people like this around to keep things on track
I like the fully built chasis idea. That way you dont have to worry about new great components in a worn out rusty frame with old bushings and blown out components.
The idea of making a universal rolling chassis definitely makes the most sense from a logistics stand point. You can have all your part shipped to one assembly line and the just ship a chassis to the installers. Obviously cost is going to play a big part but I think the "Edison Motors universal chassis" has some big potential
I'd even suggest inviting and co-locating a separate business to do the rolling chassis option. It would provide really high quality, immediate and detailed feedback. You don't need to do everything yourselves upfront and it's worth concentrating on what provides the best returns based on your differentiating value proposition.
That works more for a semi. A modern pickup truck chassis is tailored to the body and crash tested. Crumple zones are added for safety, the body mounts are in specific places for specific reasons. Putting a universal chassis (and thus likely VIN number) on the road would probably require crash testing and that would make it ultimately impossible. Medium duty trucks and larger are just two flat beams with crossmembers. A 'trim to fit and go' solution would fit that way better.
@@AbominableJoshieThere's company's that currently sell replacement and custom frames for street trucks. You'd make the frame an adjustable length with a slip joint and some holes in the outer rail for plug welding. Movable cab mounts. There's only so many different setups to accommodate. There's like 4 gens of f series to fit. Some probably share the same mounting points. then the few different cab and bed lengths. So maybe 20 options per mfg. You just need to go measure all the trucks you can get your mits on and see what mounting holes you need to drill in the frames and what brackets to sell to accommodate said setup. Repeat for the big 3 mfg's Even if they do a drop down tree of your trucks year, make, model and config and weld up the frame to the right length and ship you all the brackets you need, it would be fine.
I friggin love seeing rich and chace crawling around on the shop floor building cool shit. No matter how successful these projects end up being, please don’t ever change. Your homage to the everyday Canadian problem solver scuffing their knuckles is what sets you apart from everyone else.
Your business is in electrifying trucks in the name of greener energy. There's a few opportunities here: 1. Adapting existing drivetrains to become generators, or swap with the 2.8 CAT that seems to be quite efficient. 2. Swapping drivetrains for E-axles. Truly, this feels like it should be an inline differential, then swapping axle lengths/mounts to fit many types of trucks. Build from power-unit outwards, rather than adapting power unit to application. 3. Battery Modules and Inverters. - Speaks for itself. If you guys get big enough, someone to do a UI on a website that they can input what vehicle they have and project a build, and what their gas savings and carrying capacity would be.
I see the comments re: rolling chassis, etc., but PLEASE keep working this as a retro-fit option. Lots to like about keeping the old iron the road from both a cost and environmental standpoint!
I will say I do like the Rolling chassis idea. I think that's an excellent option. Even though there are more parts involved, I think this will also make things a lot easier on your end, since the chassis will basically be the same Across all the brands for the same size class pickup.
10:10 Really cool that you guys have a strong brand that even shows up in your parts. This is quality worksmanship, letting the engineers do what they do best 👌
YAY!!! I've been clicking on my subs list for what seems like an eternity, hoping and praying for an update! Finally, today was the day! What a great surprise after church. So many things I could say but everyone else seems to have them covered. You guys are next level though and I can't wait to see how this all comes together. My 79 F-250 is just sitting there, waiting to be born again... lol
I miss working in the machine shop a lot after this video. Most people don't realize how talented/intelligent machinists are and also how important they are.
Seems that having electric motor/gear units that would bolt to the existing diff housings would help keep costs down. If the axles could remain at stock lengths then there is the whole after market folks that can provide for high torque/hp options. On the front axles the welds could be drilled out and the diff housing and rotated around and rewelded facing back so that stock suspension and steering designs could be retained which would help control costs as well. It would be great to have an option for a high and low range for those that want off road capabilities. Got a few more ideas but don't want to go on too long here. All the best going forward guys !!!
They explained why that won't work: - Far more engine braking than the original gearing is designed for. - Far more power and torque than the original gearing was designed for.
I have to admit that I always have concerns over E-axle concept as the motor is attached to axle and become unsprung weight, which affect vehicle handling and dynamic performence, and the video proofs the concern, 370 lbs over 190 lbs stock is a huge increase, almost double. But I do also believe that later prototype can get it much less as the current one has a lot of material that can be take off. Well done guys, well done, very impressive.
What you and Chase are talking about is what the Roadster Shop in Illinois does, they take older vehicles and put new frames under them and then they can upgrade them and you have the look of old school, but new modern underpinnions. I am loving seeing you guys do this upgrade to the truck.
Looks like you are on the right track with using the stock axles as cores it makes it so 20 years from now you can still mount stock parts to keep it on the road makes it easy for the end user to maintain the truck with out having to order custom part just to get keep it on the road.
2020 (2014) E350, really want to increase the GVWR for my 19' work RV. Current GVWR is 10,050lb (4,558kg) but is already 9,000lb (4082kg) with only fluids and me. Add my 16' (4.8m) trailer on back and 400lb (181kg) motorcycle up front and I'm maxed out... Added only 450lbs to the back and 150 front but the level/weight shift maxed the rear axel by 80lbs!!! Need to get airbags or distro hitch.
There are lots of small machine shops looking for production work. One I know of in Western Montana is IQ Metals in Stevensville Montana. They love intermittent production and they've got the CNC capability. Normally I'd get a commission, but you can just contact them directly without mentioning my name. Because I'm a fan of this channel. My contribution. John Shurr
seeing these axle setups reminds me of the ones you would see in magazines from summit racing or currie and Dana. people pay good money for a built mechanical axle for their projects. particularly hot rods. i could see this expanding to that relm.
I love y’all s brains. This is fantastic work. I wish I could come work in your shop. The mere idea that reverse engineering and adapting new with existing is how true innovation bridges gaps. I effing love this work. Thank you for proving the futuristic not lost.
5:32 - Nope, that's not a 'straight cut gear', that is a Helical Gear. But it is significantly different to the helical 90-degree drive of most sun gears :) Where the type of gear used here is commonly found, is the differentials in Front Wheel Drive cars. An EV conversion for smaller vehicles, like Jeep Cherokee's that came with the 4.0 or Wranglers with the 3.8 V6, where the electric motor bolts to the input side of the transfer case, and fit up in to the transmission tunnel, might make a good option for off-roading, rather then having the axle mounted motors exposed to terrain damage. The e-Axles are definitely a great choice for hauling loads. The drum brakes are probably an advantage for the EV driveline, as they have lower resistance to driven motion, thanks to the pads pulling away from the drums.
For the temperature guessing, have you heard of temperature crayons? It melts at a specific temperature so you know it reached it. Really useful for knowing the temperature for doing those types of fit.
Rolling chassis with adapters! Really think tapping into the RV market dovetails well with the light to medium duty work truck market, very exciting, looking forward to the updates to come
I think that both a straight retrofit kit and a new frame and axle kit should be offer. I believe this would be the best way to go because some people will have rusty frames that might need to be replaced anyway due to where they live and/or how they care for their truck. Of course the determination of which kit would be ordered would be determined upon an inspection of the truck. In my opinion.
our frames in the southern and southwestern US are just fine! Seriously though, it would be interesting to see teh breakdown of truck sales and overlay that with what they already know about interest and determine the mix of RC/retrofit demand.
I’m an end user. I’m an end user who has a Jeep J10 that’s crap and I’m dying to restore it. I’d happily buy a complete rolling chassis and mount the body. Your engineer is correct. Electric torque is monstrous and immediate. With that kind of power, you’re chasing failure points. Ask any Jeep guy. Upgrade one part, the next weaker part fails. Build a complete system and let the customer customize it they way they want. 4 or 5 chassis length options from full size SUV to full RV and you’ve nailed it.
With IFS you wouldn't need to cut and reweld axle tubes. You would only need a stub adapter to bolt the current axle shaft up to. A Toyota IFS has a stub shaft that pops in on the side of the diff. You would only need to make a stub shaft to adapt to different cv shafts and have a pretty standard center diff/axle motor.
I've got a 94 chevy crew cab dually that is waiting for the retrofit kit. Sure would be nice to keep the ifs and lower stance rather than doing a SAS on it.
Honestly i think this is the best approach. Use the electric motor in a custom center section with stock axle tubes, spindles, etc. That way if someone buys a retrofit for, for example, their own second gen ram, and they need to do wheel bearings or brakes or maybe they want to put a lift and tires, they can use off the shelf parts for a second gen Ram, rather than having to figure out parts that will work with some weird Chinese axle thats completely different. It will probably also make production simpler and quicker, having to adapt less; simply chop the tube, press fit hats and bolt it up to the center section and use all stock mounting
Some thoughts: - Probably not much interest south of Iowa or west of the Rockies for the rolling chassis or frame, but I could be wrong. You can find 1980’s trucks with pristine frames for 10+ hours drive in any direction from me. I think the southern NA market will be most hot to trot about the plug-n-play axles/motors/batteries to convert their old trucks with old frame. I could be wrong though. - There is going to be a massive market for this in the small/medium work trucks and off-roaders (Tacoma, F150/1500 size trucks, etc) as well as old family haulers (GMT 800 burbs?). I wouldn’t discount conversions there if they are doable with small diesel powertrains (kubota’s???) or the existing gasoline powertrain - The less figment/welding/alignment work an installer locally has to do, the better; you folks are gems in a sea of mediocrity my friends!
Building a generic front and rear 8 lug axle would be the easiest option. Then you would weld on the appropriate brackets/spring pad spacing for each specific application.
@@DEBOSSGARAGE As OEM as possible is cool but especially for the rear axles having a "modular" version of a Sterling 10.5 would be great. Make a simple system to place the spring perches, and use clamp on shock mounts just like the OEM ford does. All the axle parts, aside from the motor would be on the shelf already.
Rich, you can buy a reversible oil pan from Cummins parts. The pan the engine comes with is not reversable. Oil pan Part # 5302129, you will also need this to cover up the other dipstick hole: part # 5254851
Just making a center section where someone can take their axle tubes, brakes, and it all bolt up like factory… that is brilliant. Assuming it will save some on the kit too. I do think u guys will have trouble selling these kits for 30k if you got down to 10k using original motor that’s in the truck as a generator I think it’d sell way better. Regardless what u guys are doing is amazing. I want one of these kits for second gen
I would recommend using steel thread inserts to hold the diff tubes to the aluminum housing instead of just tapping the aluminum. It'll make it stronger and less likely to mess up the threads.
Great work fellas! I have been a Mechanical Engineer in the transportation industry for over a decade. I led an aftermarket product that needed to be retrofitted into everything from Ford E-450s, (both in cab chassis/RV form and complete truck), Heavy Duty Transit Bus (New Flyer, Gillig for the Americans, Nova Bus for you Canadians 🙂), Caterpillar, John Deere and Tigercat forestry equipment. I also design and manufacture Cummins engine conversion parts for the off road Market, and I dabble in retrofit pickup truck dump body design. My advice to you is to first identify what will be the most commonly retrofitted platform/s.Try to focus on maybe 3. For example, maybe the 6.0L Ford Era trucks for DIY consumer retrofitter market, the newest E-450 Cab-Chassis, and the newest GM Express 4500 chassis for the RV Market, but more importantly the paratransit bus market. Then design a complete bolt/weld in (as little welding as possible) kit that includes bolt in e-axle replacements, batteries and battery mount/housing, engine generator combo and mounts. You will need to develop and include wire harness, plumbing ect. and a full vehicle specific installation guide/video. All 3 of the aforementioned platforms have full CAD data available directly from Ford and GM (I can help you with this if you need). You can engineer the entire kit in CAD first, then build a prototype to work out the details. The overall goal is to offer a kit as complete as possible and as easy as possible to install on a specific platform, ESPECIALLY for the DIY consumer market, otherwise you will end up with ALOT of botched retrofits (ask me how I know). I know you guys are just prototyping, but these kits need to be as bolt in as possible. Personally, I would start with an E-450 retrofit kit aimed at the RV/paratransit market because this is where you will see the MOST volume by far and will allow you to work with experienced companies who will be able to handle the installation. It will also be a simpler 2wd kit. While they are experienced, you WILL need to provide a complete kit and detailed instructions. I have worked with just about every RV manufacturer in Elkhart Indiana, and I am not trying to say anything bad about them, but they will require detailed instructions for success. If you can achieve some successful retrofits with a few of these companies (Turtle Top, Forest River, Champion Bus to name a few) you can also approach some small school bus manufacturers (Collins, Thomas) who also use the E-450 platform. Once you gain some steam, these companies have a lot of pull with Ford being some of the highest volume purchasers in North America and there's a good chance they can get Ford to offer them a Cab Chassis without the rear axle, drivetrain or other ancillary's that will be otherwise removed during the retofit AND can probably get you in touch with engineering to help you more cleanly integrate electronics. This could open the door to you buying stripped down Cab Chassis from Ford as well that you retro fit and offer already complete. Speaking of electronics, a company called InterMotive could probably help you better integrate the electronics in a new Ford chassis, ie, make the gauges work ect. Now, all of the above is assuming Ford doesn't already have a hybrid drive E-450 in the works 🙂 Once you get there, you could rinse and repeat to expand into other vehicle specific platforms. Last, much of my background is in vehicle fire detection and suppression and I have done a lot of direct testing and research on IC and electric vehicles, including batteries. This is something you will need to keep in mind as electric vehicle battery fires are a real issue. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk 🙂. I can be reached at info@farmstronginc.com if you are interested in further consulting services.
And you don't have to worry about pinion angle, how good is that! My brain was hurting for a split second when you assembled it. Love the attention to detail in your engineering.
I think building axles is more beneficial because then you still have value in the used axles to sell and recoup some money and I think, atleast with front axles, the resale value is greater than the excess cost of building a complete axle.
I'm sure by now, someone else has mentioned the issue of unsprung mass. If you were retro-fitting these axles into a locomotive truck, the additional unsprung mass would be dwarfed by the locomotive's mass and would probably remain controllable. This amount of extra unsprung mass under a pickup's sprung mass would be uncontrollable (and this is with the single motor per axle instead of the desired double motors per). Live axles, as they are, (especially front live axles) are only marginally controlled as they are currently built: ever hear of the dreaded death wobble? They are at the threshold beyond which the suspended is no longer the major influence upon movement. If the load carrying capacity of a beam axle is to be retained with, especially, the twin motors per axle (my own preference for diesel-electric hybrids because differentials become superfluous since motor control provides torque vectoring and differential speeds), I would go with a De Dion axle arrangement. The motors are frame-mounted, double-jointed half-shafts bring the torque to the wheels through the De Dion's uprights, and the De Dion is curved around the motors and is located as best for the load. The unsprung mass now becomes only that of the De Dion tube plus the usual wheels/tires/brakes and a portion of the suspension links, half-shafts/CV joints, and springs/dampers--an actual big improvement over the stock live axle with its pumpkin. The De Dion axle also allows (as does an independent suspension) the option of further reducing unsprung mass through moving the brakes inboard of the half-shafts; the usual problem of brake cooling inboards is greatly reduced by regenerative braking. My hybrid designs also include light capacitor banks that can absorb huge current inrushes (as under enormous regenerative braking) and provide regulated output to help recharge batteries and to provide extra current for acceleration.
IMHO. I think making the chasing part of the kit would be a better option if there isn't going to be much price point difference. But I was excited when the Edison Motor guy said the RV makers are interested in the concept. I'm gonna need a kit and buy an RV when they roll out. Great video awesome idea. Thanks Rich and crew and Edison Motors.😊
For the rear, I'd do all new everything, order all new tubes, with new spindles friction welded to an o.d. ground tube (make them all the longest length) cut the tube to order, weld on new mounts in the correct place for application. I'd also press/weld the tube to the center section, instead of bolting them on. Axles shafts can be ordered for the longest normal length, with long enough splines on one end so all you need to do is cut to fit. Do as little in house custom work as possible, and order as many exactly alike parts as possible, larger order=cheaper per piece cost.
![Final Assembly of the Cummins Silverado Begins... #24vSilverado [EP11]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8JuSSqKQdBU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Final Assembly of the Cummins Silverado Begins... #24vSilverado [EP11]](/img/tr.png)
![Test Fitting our @EdisonMotors Generator #RamRecharger [EP9]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nW9rcwYymJw/mqdefault.jpg)
Your channel is an eclipse where blue collar and rocket science meet together. I absolutely love watching all those videos. I’m currently working on a 12 valve swap into my Land Cruiser, and an M57 turbo diesel swap into my 72’ BMW 2002. Thank you for the inspiring content.
You done yet?
I think you mean the mandoria of a Venn Diagram with "blue collar" and "science" overlapping - and I 100 agree! 👍😎
Historically, though, many scientists were also "blue collar" workers, because they had to design, and build, their own equipment 😎
Same thing with engineers.
@FirstGendodgegarage You got a problem there bud?
Speaking of the RV market, that is a brilliant place to start small and grow the rolling chassis setup. In fact, perhaps the best place. I can imagine Overland style rigs with 4x4 from electric, max torque and small diesel being a Unicorn setup with great demand too.
Absolutely
Pulse the RV industry just got hit with Banns in California and 5 states followed. New hybrid power train Edison motor-home makes lots of sense. No need to a Aux generator. Big battery for the week of camping, then fire up the generator and head home.
Even a bigger RV would benefit from that. You don't need the small generator anymore and really most people buying those wouldn't mind adding 40-50k on top of a 400k RV if they can double their fuel efficiency and remove a lot of the drivetrain that needs servicing. Even if you just do the class C chassis there's a huge market for that. Class A would benefit from the same tech as your logging trucks. Retrofit or install on a new frame before it goes to the manufacturer to have the body built.
Not an RV, but I’m absolutely looking at taking an old work van and converting it into a diesel electric camper van. It’s a full size axle on a full size frame, anyways.
Because everyone has $100k to drop on those axles, batteries, wiring, labor etc. This is not going to be something a common man can afford for a long long time.
The slow breakdown into "should we just build a truck and sell it as a body swap kit?"😂
Scope creep is a dangerous thing. Just like in the movie Pentagon Wars.
I think there is a definite use case to build the chassis as a middle ground. It would be a platform that could be used by a cab building partner for a proper truck, a retrofit kit, and it sounds like there is potential for other partnerships (rv’s) to help offset the development cost.
@@calebkzThe RV market would be huge, as there's so many people who would be charging the battery pack from their photovoltaic systems and then using the generator as a backup to that.
@rangerismine People mention that movie and book but forget to mention that the Bradley is an extremely successful vehicle. In many battles, it got more enemy tank kills than the M1Abrams and can still carry troops.
@ You’re definitely right. I think the point of the movie was just to show the expensive continual development and moving goalpost in a lot of government projects.
My favorite part about sundays is watching deboss work on his project trucks while i procrastinate working on mine
Thanks for watching brother!
Oh, so, true! I did the same today!
Good, someone else said it.
Same, too bloody cold out.
I'm literally doing that
From a perspective from an IT person who works on cars in his own spare time... complete e-axles with core exchange would be the best solution. Quality of build of the e-axel is guaranteed as it was built in house per design specs. In addition, built units are ready to shipped/installed VS taking an existing unit, cutting it up and converting it to an e-axel.
Conversion shops can stock up several units/kits while sending core units out to be converted. If there are any issues with an e-axel during the install, another can take's it place while "repair" is performed on the affected e-axel.
The engine and generator is straight forward since it replaced the existing engine and trans. The challenge is finding a location for the battery pack. For the best fit and to get as much power capacity as possible, the existing gas tank would need to be moved or replaced. If replaced, you would need to think about diesel capacity VS battery capacity VS range on max load. There needs to be a balance. Too small of a battery, the generator needs to be on more often, too small of a fuel tank, more trips to the pump.
If you can get 300-500 miles (~500-800km) out of a 10-15 gal tank, under load, this kit will be worth every penny. For the every day blue collar worker, filling up a 15 gal tank with diesel @ $3.54 US, comes out to be about $53 US. Versus filling up a F-350 that has a 35 gal tank, which would cost you around $124 US. You will use more diesel under load vs using electric motors, if electric motor and batteries are spec'ed right. How much of the truck's load capacity becomes a moot argument once converted because of all of the torque. It would be a matter of how strong is the frame and is re-enforcement needed for handling the new power output.
Just my thoughts.
I agree with this person's assessment; very well said :)
As another IT guy who also works on cars in my spare time, I concur. 👍👍
Just for an apples to oranges comparison -- my Rivian r1t truck with mixed use has been getting about 2.2 miles per kwh. 500 miles of range is costing me about $35 at home electricity rates (rural MA) or about $90 at the superfast charger beside the highway.
@FeldorS You're correct. The numbers i provided was imaginary and not real world. I don't expect a R1T loaded with 1000+ lbs of equipment on a day to day basis for work, or towing a goose neck flat bed trailer pulling 15,000+ lbs of cargo. Definitely apples to oranges comparison.
If a converted F-350, or equivalent, truck can get 500 miles in between 15 gal fill ups while towing over 15,000 lbs, that is amazing. 30ish mpg with the conversion (15gal tank//500mile range), since diesel is still being used, versus only running off the factory diesel at around 7-9mpg ish, towing 15,000lbs.
Again the conversion numbers are speculation since there isn't a converted truck in existence to actually have a mpg test.
@@maxfinity5640 Also not spending $70-90k out the gate either lol
You can tell this is a group of designers, fabricators, and mechanics that will just get shit done AND the solution will outlive their grandchildren!!!!
Thanks man!
That so cool you mention RV’s because I was in the process of typing out a comment of how revolutionary this could be for the RV Market. I think the 4x4 segment of RV market is growing and it’s largely untapped and underestimated. I think the desire and need for 4x4 is there but the consumer has very few options. You offering a 4x4 option coupled with the diesel/electric system could be an absolute game changer. I’d love to see a conversion package but I also think if you developed a complete chassis/drivetrain like something that could compete with the ford f53 class a chassis the RV manufacturers would take notice.
I was thinking along the same lines. This could be a huge market.
That makes total sense in that platform. With the generator and batteries also working as an off grid power system when parked.
I was also thinking about the RV while I was looking at it, this is exactly what I need, a house with its own diesel integrated power plant, producing peak power higher than any portable generator, with all-wheel drive and solar panels on the roof. The setup I would like to have
These guys in the machine shop have serious skills
Might I recommend Grede. I know you guys might want this as Canadian as possible, but Reedsburg, Wisconsin might as well be Camada. I'm actually a project engineer in foundry engineering there, and we frequently discuss Edison and what ya'll are doing with a great level of admiration. We can make a thousand tons/day of automotive ductile iron castings and own some of our own machine shops.
Thank you for reaching out! Can you send us an email to debossgarage@gmail.com?
Nice!
@@DEBOSSGARAGEif you need another foundry close, Badger Foundry in Winona MN makes or has made parts for many cars/trucks.
Badger foundry and Winona welding could make that stuff quickly
Wow that’s crazy to hear reedsberg. My grandparents used to own and operate copper springs motel in reedsburg! Spent many a summers there as a child with them.
What a great video, The talent in this is unbelievable
Thank you for that!
If you guys do a chassis for the RV builders, you’d also be perfectly positioned to sell rolling chassis to the step-van builders. The diesel electric hybrid would be perfect for delivery vehicles, and a contract with FedEx or UPS seems totally realistic!!
I love seeing "regular" people build stuff. I can't get enough of this RnD/build!
Regarding the rolling chassis idea...
I know it's a totally different situation, but when I originally bought my 1967 C30, I was planning to do a Ford 4X4 swap on the original chassis....however after alot of thought, I realized it would be MUCH less work to start with a complete Ford chassis. Especially since I was going to be using a ZF6/manual shift tcase, on top of the Ford axles/driveshafts. Not only would I be starting with all original mounts, transmission crossmember, etc. But it saved me from having to completely fabricate all new custom suspension, and allow me to utilize already engineered aftermarket Ford suspension options. (which I plan to do.)
On top of that, I was going to have to modify and shorten the c30 frame ANYWAYS. I'll still have to swap the cab over, but now I have a complete (albeit shortened) chasis, suspension, steering, etc. Anything underneath the cab is going to be available off the shelf from Ford, outside of the steering column, wiring, and shortened rear driveshaft. (And of course, the old Deutz under the hood!)
I'm not saying that a universal chassis makes sense, but it might be reasonable to have some sort of core, or exchange program where you have 2 or 3 models of pre-built chassis that can be utilized. Build up a chassis, swap the customers body on, keep their chassis, and start the process over again.
It would dramatically reduce turnaround times, as well as potentially eliminate any unexpected surprises that arise when modifying/dealing with miled-out rigs.
Sorry. That was a bit long winded 😂
But also, making a universal chassis might not even be feasible. You'd have to design it based around the narrowest option you can find, because (like with my build) having wider frame rails makes it a royal PITA to do up cab mounts, without a body lift. You'd have to design a million different cab mounts, and measure up every single style of truck for height and spacing. Say, for example, you are looking at 08-16 Ford superduty: the mounts between crew cabs, extended cabs, regular cabs, etc, are all at different heights and spacing. Sometimes it's alot easier to piggyback a known and proven quantity than reinvent the wheel.
Ford chassis, Dodge (Cummins) engine, GM (Allison) trans, Dana axles
@@Watchyn_Yarwood Naaaah.....everyone and their mothers dog has done a cummins swap. I want something different!
When I worked at CAT we used a freezer to shrink the timing gear shaft to slip fit it into the hole. Heat / cold can do the same thing, very cool.... Thx for sharing , very nice work.... We used hydraulics to pull the shafts out when needed.
Liquid nitrogen works well also
Make sure your dif cover hugs the ring gear enough to splash the oil up to the top components. I've seen these shiny finned covers destroy the pumpkin because the openness of the cover didn't draw oil up far enough. Love this project!
Gale Banks does a whole video with a clear cover that makes your point very clear... good catch!
This! I remember when Gale Banks designed his own, that was one helluva rant!
Is it possible to partner with Banks for the pumkins?
Wonder how straight cut gears carry oil , would be interesting to see if there is a difference. Plexiglass diff covers for some R&D!
They did get it close but it don't look like a smooth transition from housing to back cover of the diff.
[12:30] FWIW, you can place the part on any photocopier/scanner along with a piece of known dimensions, import the scan into your CAD software, and then place the holes so that they precisely line up with the scan. It's an _ooooold_ trick.
For heavier items that won't fit on a flatbed scanner, you can also lay a piece of paper over it. Tear the paper off a crayon, or a piece of colored chalk, and turn it sideways against the paper and rub the whole part to get an imprint of the whole surface, and scan that.
@@Wrenchmonkey1 Recently did a rubbing to mount my router on the well.
The screws go right trough the paper: allowing way more precise positioning.
One cool thing you could do is put the Edison logo on the new dif covers. You guys are doing an amazing job! 🙂
I love to see this process and am especially proud to hear how dedicated you guys are to, Made in Canada!
This is what our country needs.
Looking forward to getting my hands on one of your kits!
Great to see something actually being developed and built in North America!
As anybody else does, they're buying a lot of stuff from china. The cummins is from china, the electric motors are from china, the batteries and the generator too.
Not to criticize them, if they want this to succeed, they have to think economically. And since everyone in north america wants to earn 50$ an hour, it's much more economical to get shit from china
*somewhat in North America. The axle is coming from china unless there is a massive announcement in this video. I haven't gotten to watch yet.
@deucebigs9860 They said they are looking at Canadian companies that can make the motors, rather than relying on the ones from China.
@@klapaucius77 Oh that's awesome! I'm waiting on my morning meetings to be over to watch this but chomping at the bit! Thanks for the reply and correcting me!
@@klapaucius77 Mhm. But at the moment everything comes from China. Even the Cummins R2.8
Come on man they didn't make a big trip to china and talked to companies there just to buy a two electric axles and one R2.8
this project is epic .. i cannot wait to see this run and benchmark. with the 2.8 properly tuned i feel this project will challenge the upcoming 2025-ramchager for range .. and you beautiful lunatic you BUILT IT IN A GARAGE, and did not spend more than half a billion in R&D.. ram/dodge should be paying attention to this build.
This project is a dream from a fella working for an electrical engineering degree who also loves trucks. Can't wait to see what comes next!
Absolutely love the idea and creativity behind this conversion. Can't wait to get my hands on one for a 2010 Chevrolet 2500HD. I don't plan to ever sale this truck and will be putting a new motor in it once the 6.0 gasser dies. This conversion would be the absolute best possible outcome for my truck. Solid front axle conversion and diesel/hybrid electric drivetrain.
This channel is definitely underrated.
Wow. That was intense. That’s a hell of a team you have there. It’s inspiring to see this come together. I need to see this truck rolling down the road.
Liked and subbed.
for SEMA that aluminum housing would look terrific in Anodized blue. Would match the electric blue powder coat on frame. GREAT JOB gentlemen! 👍🏻
I think the way you guys did the Modular idea is great. the only part you will have to make custom for certain trucks (original axles) will be the collar to fit the axle tubes to the gear case.
The only thing i see as a "loss" is that you have to cut up a potentially good axle to make a new one. Making new axle tubes would be extra cost, which may be required for some original axles for stability.
Love to see the process! Will be interesting to see the dual motor version of that. Weight balance might be a bit difficult with that.
"The Edison Way"...great new paradigm!!
I prefer tbe DeBoss way actually. Less jibberjabber, more knowledge.
I love this project. I can't wait to get my custom 2025 F550 built with your system.
In my personal opinion, most trucks in Canada and northern states deal with rusted out frames, it would amazing to have a GM rolling chassis that would work for GM, one for ford, one for ram. That way you get to put the body style truck you like on the new chassis and know that that your whole undercarriage is brand new, then you could still sell to rv manufacturers and upfitters
I agree complete rolling chassis should be an available option for faster swaps and better guarantee option at higher price point.
Nice to see North America back in the research development, fabrication and manufacturing business.
16:42 - An electric pottery kiln does wonders for heating up small to medium sized parts fairly accurately, and even one with a basic controller can hold set temperature for a set time.
Just a suggestion;do one thing at a time and do it well. As you perfect it, your production speed will increase and that equals profit, in time. Love your company, your ideas and especially your people. Never give up.
Honestly, this kit would be an amazing retrofit for RV's.
That would be BIG money
I think a small to medium class C motorhome would be the perfect use case for something like this. you could have larger battery set and also use the batteries and generator to power the living space.
Wow! Thats some work, congrats guys.
A rolling chassis would be great but thinking of overseas clients, like myself, I see an axle replacement a better option. Registering vehicles is so different in other areas, for instance, here, I need the original number plate to match the original chassis number to be able to keep it on the road. The fewer new parts, the easier I would see it being.
Keep up the great work 👍
i would first break into a 5500 chassis cabv for class C RV's and then go from there to a lightweight edison semi based cab and chassis for Toter Homes. big money market there and lets you develop your eventual OTR cab for multiple markets.
Fascinating build! I think the burger ended up at 0.020 undersized. 🙂
It is so neat to see these young people see a issue and solve it. They are so bright I would love to be in the same room with them just to hear and see the problem solving that goes on. Our world will be just fine with young people like this around to keep things on track
FINALLY an update on the Ram!!!!! I’ve been waiting for this!
Love what you and Edison motors are doing keep up the good work
Series hybrid is the latest hotness in the medium-heavy duty sector, excited to see what this project develops into!
I like the fully built chasis idea. That way you dont have to worry about new great components in a worn out rusty frame with old bushings and blown out components.
these kind of collaborations make me proud to be Canadian! Very inspirational! Thank you!
as an American, makes me proud of you Canadians as well...
The idea of making a universal rolling chassis definitely makes the most sense from a logistics stand point. You can have all your part shipped to one assembly line and the just ship a chassis to the installers.
Obviously cost is going to play a big part but I think the "Edison Motors universal chassis" has some big potential
So much for retrofitting…
I'd even suggest inviting and co-locating a separate business to do the rolling chassis option. It would provide really high quality, immediate and detailed feedback. You don't need to do everything yourselves upfront and it's worth concentrating on what provides the best returns based on your differentiating value proposition.
@Prairietrucker a universal chassis isn’t possible.
That works more for a semi. A modern pickup truck chassis is tailored to the body and crash tested. Crumple zones are added for safety, the body mounts are in specific places for specific reasons. Putting a universal chassis (and thus likely VIN number) on the road would probably require crash testing and that would make it ultimately impossible. Medium duty trucks and larger are just two flat beams with crossmembers. A 'trim to fit and go' solution would fit that way better.
@@AbominableJoshieThere's company's that currently sell replacement and custom frames for street trucks. You'd make the frame an adjustable length with a slip joint and some holes in the outer rail for plug welding. Movable cab mounts. There's only so many different setups to accommodate.
There's like 4 gens of f series to fit. Some probably share the same mounting points. then the few different cab and bed lengths. So maybe 20 options per mfg. You just need to go measure all the trucks you can get your mits on and see what mounting holes you need to drill in the frames and what brackets to sell to accommodate said setup. Repeat for the big 3 mfg's
Even if they do a drop down tree of your trucks year, make, model and config and weld up the frame to the right length and ship you all the brackets you need, it would be fine.
I friggin love seeing rich and chace crawling around on the shop floor building cool shit. No matter how successful these projects end up being, please don’t ever change. Your homage to the everyday Canadian problem solver scuffing their knuckles is what sets you apart from everyone else.
I think you hit the nail on the head With building the frame with the running gear and selling a complete package to retrofit body to frame
Your business is in electrifying trucks in the name of greener energy. There's a few opportunities here:
1. Adapting existing drivetrains to become generators, or swap with the 2.8 CAT that seems to be quite efficient.
2. Swapping drivetrains for E-axles. Truly, this feels like it should be an inline differential, then swapping axle lengths/mounts to fit many types of trucks. Build from power-unit outwards, rather than adapting power unit to application.
3. Battery Modules and Inverters. - Speaks for itself.
If you guys get big enough, someone to do a UI on a website that they can input what vehicle they have and project a build, and what their gas savings and carrying capacity would be.
I see the comments re: rolling chassis, etc., but PLEASE keep working this as a retro-fit option. Lots to like about keeping the old iron the road from both a cost and environmental standpoint!
I'm sure eventually, at their website, we'll just click the checkbox for as little or as many different parts as we need.
I will say I do like the Rolling chassis idea. I think that's an excellent option. Even though there are more parts involved, I think this will also make things a lot easier on your end, since the chassis will basically be the same Across all the brands for the same size class pickup.
10:10 Really cool that you guys have a strong brand that even shows up in your parts. This is quality worksmanship, letting the engineers do what they do best 👌
YAY!!! I've been clicking on my subs list for what seems like an eternity, hoping and praying for an update! Finally, today was the day! What a great surprise after church.
So many things I could say but everyone else seems to have them covered. You guys are next level though and I can't wait to see how this all comes together.
My 79 F-250 is just sitting there, waiting to be born again... lol
Really exciting guys, all the best!
Love your work, especially enjoy seeing the engineering people involved in the process, you work with seriously talented people
I miss working in the machine shop a lot after this video. Most people don't realize how talented/intelligent machinists are and also how important they are.
Seems that having electric motor/gear units that would bolt to the existing diff housings would help keep costs down. If the axles could remain at stock lengths then there is the whole after market folks that can provide for high torque/hp options. On the front axles the welds could be drilled out and the diff housing and rotated around and rewelded facing back so that stock suspension and steering designs could be retained which would help control costs as well. It would be great to have an option for a high and low range for those that want off road capabilities. Got a few more ideas but don't want to go on too long here. All the best going forward guys !!!
They explained why that won't work:
- Far more engine braking than the original gearing is designed for.
- Far more power and torque than the original gearing was designed for.
Explanation @ 30:00
I have to admit that I always have concerns over E-axle concept as the motor is attached to axle and become unsprung weight, which affect vehicle handling and dynamic performence, and the video proofs the concern, 370 lbs over 190 lbs stock is a huge increase, almost double.
But I do also believe that later prototype can get it much less as the current one has a lot of material that can be take off.
Well done guys, well done, very impressive.
What you and Chase are talking about is what the Roadster Shop in Illinois does, they take older vehicles and put new frames under them and then they can upgrade them and you have the look of old school, but new modern underpinnions. I am loving seeing you guys do this upgrade to the truck.
Looks like you are on the right track with using the stock axles as cores it makes it so 20 years from now you can still mount stock parts to keep it on the road makes it easy for the end user to maintain the truck with out having to order custom part just to get keep it on the road.
Will be interesting to see how the suspension handles the radial torque flex, and how it transfers traction. Love your work.
2020 (2014) E350, really want to increase the GVWR for my 19' work RV.
Current GVWR is 10,050lb (4,558kg) but is already 9,000lb (4082kg) with only fluids and me.
Add my 16' (4.8m) trailer on back and 400lb (181kg) motorcycle up front and I'm maxed out...
Added only 450lbs to the back and 150 front but the level/weight shift maxed the rear axel by 80lbs!!! Need to get airbags or distro hitch.
There are lots of small machine shops looking for production work. One I know of in Western Montana is IQ Metals in Stevensville Montana. They love intermittent production and they've got the CNC capability. Normally I'd get a commission, but you can just contact them directly without mentioning my name. Because I'm a fan of this channel. My contribution. John Shurr
Omg I cant wait to use whatever you come up with in my vehicle
Super impressed with that build and how it was executed to align everything. You got the right partners involved.
TNK are awesome to work with and 5 minutes down the road
@@DEBOSSGARAGE Just got a pair of their boots. loving em so far!
I love that you guys are remanufacturing this in house. I am so exited to see this all come together and truly transform the auto industry.
9 years in the making!
Friggin rights boys!
seeing these axle setups reminds me of the ones you would see in magazines from summit racing or currie and Dana. people pay good money for a built mechanical axle for their projects. particularly hot rods. i could see this expanding to that relm.
also i haven't seen any info on the power expected by 1 motor. does it make sense to sell the setup as a 2wd configuration?
Been excited for this update!
Retrofitting literally anything gets me excited!
I love y’all s brains. This is fantastic work. I wish I could come work in your shop. The mere idea that reverse engineering and adapting new with existing is how true innovation bridges gaps. I effing love this work. Thank you for proving the futuristic not lost.
5:32 - Nope, that's not a 'straight cut gear', that is a Helical Gear. But it is significantly different to the helical 90-degree drive of most sun gears :) Where the type of gear used here is commonly found, is the differentials in Front Wheel Drive cars. An EV conversion for smaller vehicles, like Jeep Cherokee's that came with the 4.0 or Wranglers with the 3.8 V6, where the electric motor bolts to the input side of the transfer case, and fit up in to the transmission tunnel, might make a good option for off-roading, rather then having the axle mounted motors exposed to terrain damage.
The e-Axles are definitely a great choice for hauling loads. The drum brakes are probably an advantage for the EV driveline, as they have lower resistance to driven motion, thanks to the pads pulling away from the drums.
This so cool of what you guys are doing, keep it up! 👍
For the temperature guessing, have you heard of temperature crayons? It melts at a specific temperature so you know it reached it.
Really useful for knowing the temperature for doing those types of fit.
Rolling chassis with adapters! Really think tapping into the RV market dovetails well with the light to medium duty work truck market, very exciting, looking forward to the updates to come
I think that both a straight retrofit kit and a new frame and axle kit should be offer. I believe this would be the best way to go because some people will have rusty frames that might need to be replaced anyway due to where they live and/or how they care for their truck. Of course the determination of which kit would be ordered would be determined upon an inspection of the truck. In my opinion.
our frames in the southern and southwestern US are just fine! Seriously though, it would be interesting to see teh breakdown of truck sales and overlay that with what they already know about interest and determine the mix of RC/retrofit demand.
I read “OIF“ behind you at 1:50
Cheers!
I’m an end user. I’m an end user who has a Jeep J10 that’s crap and I’m dying to restore it. I’d happily buy a complete rolling chassis and mount the body. Your engineer is correct. Electric torque is monstrous and immediate. With that kind of power, you’re chasing failure points. Ask any Jeep guy. Upgrade one part, the next weaker part fails. Build a complete system and let the customer customize it they way they want. 4 or 5 chassis length options from full size SUV to full RV and you’ve nailed it.
You need to JUMP on that RV Chassis opportunity! Huge Market!!
The way those axles are built you could even do IFS
That's the idea!
@@DEBOSSGARAGE ifs would be really nice because your motor weight is no longer ‘sprung weight’. Shocks will struggle to control a 400lb vs 100lb axle.
With IFS you wouldn't need to cut and reweld axle tubes.
You would only need a stub adapter to bolt the current axle shaft up to.
A Toyota IFS has a stub shaft that pops in on the side of the diff.
You would only need to make a stub shaft to adapt to different cv shafts and have a pretty standard center diff/axle motor.
I've got a 94 chevy crew cab dually that is waiting for the retrofit kit. Sure would be nice to keep the ifs and lower stance rather than doing a SAS on it.
Damn this channel makes me wish I had a huge shop with CNC equipment, car lifts, cold beer, a grip of money and a bunch of smart friends.
Honestly i think this is the best approach. Use the electric motor in a custom center section with stock axle tubes, spindles, etc. That way if someone buys a retrofit for, for example, their own second gen ram, and they need to do wheel bearings or brakes or maybe they want to put a lift and tires, they can use off the shelf parts for a second gen Ram, rather than having to figure out parts that will work with some weird Chinese axle thats completely different. It will probably also make production simpler and quicker, having to adapt less; simply chop the tube, press fit hats and bolt it up to the center section and use all stock mounting
Some thoughts:
- Probably not much interest south of Iowa or west of the Rockies for the rolling chassis or frame, but I could be wrong. You can find 1980’s trucks with pristine frames for 10+ hours drive in any direction from me. I think the southern NA market will be most hot to trot about the plug-n-play axles/motors/batteries to convert their old trucks with old frame. I could be wrong though.
- There is going to be a massive market for this in the small/medium work trucks and off-roaders (Tacoma, F150/1500 size trucks, etc) as well as old family haulers (GMT 800 burbs?). I wouldn’t discount conversions there if they are doable with small diesel powertrains (kubota’s???) or the existing gasoline powertrain
- The less figment/welding/alignment work an installer locally has to do, the better; you folks are gems in a sea of mediocrity my friends!
Building a generic front and rear 8 lug axle would be the easiest option. Then you would weld on the appropriate brackets/spring pad spacing for each specific application.
By doing it this way, all the parts for each truck is still stock. ABS sensors, brakes, and bearings etc.
@@DEBOSSGARAGEI understand that way of thinking. It all looks great though. Can’t wait to see more videos on it!
@@DEBOSSGARAGE As OEM as possible is cool but especially for the rear axles having a "modular" version of a Sterling 10.5 would be great. Make a simple system to place the spring perches, and use clamp on shock mounts just like the OEM ford does. All the axle parts, aside from the motor would be on the shelf already.
My favorite part about this channel, and other channels like this, is watching engineers be mechanics.
Rich, you can buy a reversible oil pan from Cummins parts. The pan the engine comes with is not reversable.
Oil pan Part # 5302129, you will also need this to cover up the other dipstick hole: part # 5254851
Just making a center section where someone can take their axle tubes, brakes, and it all bolt up like factory… that is brilliant. Assuming it will save some on the kit too. I do think u guys will have trouble selling these kits for 30k if you got down to 10k using original motor that’s in the truck as a generator I think it’d sell way better. Regardless what u guys are doing is amazing. I want one of these kits for second gen
I would recommend using steel thread inserts to hold the diff tubes to the aluminum housing instead of just tapping the aluminum. It'll make it stronger and less likely to mess up the threads.
Great work fellas! I have been a Mechanical Engineer in the transportation industry for over a decade. I led an aftermarket product that needed to be retrofitted into everything from Ford E-450s, (both in cab chassis/RV form and complete truck), Heavy Duty Transit Bus (New Flyer, Gillig for the Americans, Nova Bus for you Canadians 🙂), Caterpillar, John Deere and Tigercat forestry equipment. I also design and manufacture Cummins engine conversion parts for the off road Market, and I dabble in retrofit pickup truck dump body design. My advice to you is to first identify what will be the most commonly retrofitted platform/s.Try to focus on maybe 3. For example, maybe the 6.0L Ford Era trucks for DIY consumer retrofitter market, the newest E-450 Cab-Chassis, and the newest GM Express 4500 chassis for the RV Market, but more importantly the paratransit bus market. Then design a complete bolt/weld in (as little welding as possible) kit that includes bolt in e-axle replacements, batteries and battery mount/housing, engine generator combo and mounts. You will need to develop and include wire harness, plumbing ect. and a full vehicle specific installation guide/video. All 3 of the aforementioned platforms have full CAD data available directly from Ford and GM (I can help you with this if you need). You can engineer the entire kit in CAD first, then build a prototype to work out the details. The overall goal is to offer a kit as complete as possible and as easy as possible to install on a specific platform, ESPECIALLY for the DIY consumer market, otherwise you will end up with ALOT of botched retrofits (ask me how I know). I know you guys are just prototyping, but these kits need to be as bolt in as possible.
Personally, I would start with an E-450 retrofit kit aimed at the RV/paratransit market because this is where you will see the MOST volume by far and will allow you to work with experienced companies who will be able to handle the installation. It will also be a simpler 2wd kit. While they are experienced, you WILL need to provide a complete kit and detailed instructions. I have worked with just about every RV manufacturer in Elkhart Indiana, and I am not trying to say anything bad about them, but they will require detailed instructions for success.
If you can achieve some successful retrofits with a few of these companies (Turtle Top, Forest River, Champion Bus to name a few) you can also approach some small school bus manufacturers (Collins, Thomas) who also use the E-450 platform.
Once you gain some steam, these companies have a lot of pull with Ford being some of the highest volume purchasers in North America and there's a good chance they can get Ford to offer them a Cab Chassis without the rear axle, drivetrain or other ancillary's that will be otherwise removed during the retofit AND can probably get you in touch with engineering to help you more cleanly integrate electronics. This could open the door to you buying stripped down Cab Chassis from Ford as well that you retro fit and offer already complete.
Speaking of electronics, a company called InterMotive could probably help you better integrate the electronics in a new Ford chassis, ie, make the gauges work ect.
Now, all of the above is assuming Ford doesn't already have a hybrid drive E-450 in the works 🙂
Once you get there, you could rinse and repeat to expand into other vehicle specific platforms.
Last, much of my background is in vehicle fire detection and suppression and I have done a lot of direct testing and research on IC and electric vehicles, including batteries. This is something you will need to keep in mind as electric vehicle battery fires are a real issue.
Thank you for listening to my TED Talk 🙂. I can be reached at info@farmstronginc.com if you are interested in further consulting services.
I love helpful pointers like this. Thank you. :)
That is awesome, my 2 dodge 3500's would be happy in a new pair if legs, lol. Keep up the great work
And you don't have to worry about pinion angle, how good is that! My brain was hurting for a split second when you assembled it. Love the attention to detail in your engineering.
This was a great episode, but I was distracted by that Land Cruiser in the background at 43:35.
Really incredible work here, by everyone across multiple teams and companies. Keep going y'all we're rooting for you
I think building axles is more beneficial because then you still have value in the used axles to sell and recoup some money and I think, atleast with front axles, the resale value is greater than the excess cost of building a complete axle.
I agree, a set of 1 ton axles in my area sell for around $1000 in decent shape.
Amazing work. That heated fit was really slick. I assumed a whole new axle would be used. The planning is impressive.
Cool to see it coming along.
That unsprung and offcenter weight seems like a lot.
On the semi didn't you decide against this method?
This will make for a great 4xe option for 2wd trucks too. Electric front axle only, it’ll add the hybrid drive and 4x4 in one shot. Pretty darn cool
I'm sure by now, someone else has mentioned the issue of unsprung mass. If you were retro-fitting these axles into a locomotive truck, the additional unsprung mass would be dwarfed by the locomotive's mass and would probably remain controllable. This amount of extra unsprung mass under a pickup's sprung mass would be uncontrollable (and this is with the single motor per axle instead of the desired double motors per). Live axles, as they are, (especially front live axles) are only marginally controlled as they are currently built: ever hear of the dreaded death wobble? They are at the threshold beyond which the suspended is no longer the major influence upon movement.
If the load carrying capacity of a beam axle is to be retained with, especially, the twin motors per axle (my own preference for diesel-electric hybrids because differentials become superfluous since motor control provides torque vectoring and differential speeds), I would go with a De Dion axle arrangement. The motors are frame-mounted, double-jointed half-shafts bring the torque to the wheels through the De Dion's uprights, and the De Dion is curved around the motors and is located as best for the load. The unsprung mass now becomes only that of the De Dion tube plus the usual wheels/tires/brakes and a portion of the suspension links, half-shafts/CV joints, and springs/dampers--an actual big improvement over the stock live axle with its pumpkin. The De Dion axle also allows (as does an independent suspension) the option of further reducing unsprung mass through moving the brakes inboard of the half-shafts; the usual problem of brake cooling inboards is greatly reduced by regenerative braking.
My hybrid designs also include light capacitor banks that can absorb huge current inrushes (as under enormous regenerative braking) and provide regulated output to help recharge batteries and to provide extra current for acceleration.
Was looking this comment. I understand it has to be strong, but big mass of electric motor should not be on springs.
IMHO. I think making the chasing part of the kit would be a better option if there isn't going to be much price point difference. But I was excited when the Edison Motor guy said the RV makers are interested in the concept. I'm gonna need a kit and buy an RV when they roll out. Great video awesome idea. Thanks Rich and crew and Edison Motors.😊
For the rear, I'd do all new everything, order all new tubes, with new spindles friction welded to an o.d. ground tube (make them all the longest length) cut the tube to order, weld on new mounts in the correct place for application. I'd also press/weld the tube to the center section, instead of bolting them on. Axles shafts can be ordered for the longest normal length, with long enough splines on one end so all you need to do is cut to fit. Do as little in house custom work as possible, and order as many exactly alike parts as possible, larger order=cheaper per piece cost.
you might look at making a mid plate & front plate for motor/generator mounting...even factory under brace might could be moved or designed different.
23:22 Princess Bride reference. I approve.
Metal 3D printers would thrive for those cnc parts 😮💨