Rey is a Mary Sue because she did not train and her powers have no compelling source. Luke and Anakin both trained and still lost their first duel onscreen.
And lost an arm. They actually suffer through these battles. What did Rian do? throw a lightsaber (sorry, a "lasersword") at Rey's head. Weak and pathetic writing.
@@tomatodamashi btw, in TFA, she actually got a sucker punch while fighting 2 dudes that tried to take BB-8. This means that in a few days, she went from getting sucker punched by 2 random men, to just getting a scratch fighting what? 8 Royal Guards with light weapons?
I think this trilogy would be better (not much but a little better) if they have one movie (or something like that) that consists of nothing except Rey training.
@WillFanofMany I think someone is due a few limb loss, I cant think of a main character that has lost a limb yet, all I'm saying is someone better lose an arm in episode 9.
It's been a while since I had a long post, so let's just jump into it... The Planet of the Apes Trilogy (2011 - 14) The Dark Knight Trilogy (Nolan: 2005 - 12) The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (2001 - 03) The Hobbit Trilogy (2012 - 14) All of the above are less than two decades old and never jeopardized the story or vision that the creative staff had. They understood that they weren't making three individual movies, instead showing three chapters of one story and that's one of the biggest mistakes that Lucasfilm committed. Each of the above films flowed smoothly from one into the other and this created memorable trilogies. With Nolan's, it's a testament to how well he is as a director/writer because Ledger's legendary adaptation of The Joker was set to continue into the final film of his trilogy. *_This_* is a great example of having one story and vision for a trilogy. I can understand attempting to venture into a new direction, but in this, Lucasfilm needed to be diligent in their effort to have one story be explained among three films by different directors with three different visions. Unfortunately, Rian Johnson confirmed that Lucasfilm had zero vision for this Trilogy and that is a difficult pill to swallow, considering this is the biggest franchise in cinema history. It still boggles my mind that there never was an overall plan for this trilogy; that no one could understand the outcome of such a decision. This goes much deeper than just creating a Trilogy and making it coherent and that's the fact that this follows, and is directly tied into, two previous Trilogies. The Original and Prequel Trilogy have, to an extent, divided the fans before this trilogy did, but the overall story in both Trilogies were consistent and flowed well from film to film, even if the fans didn't like the acting or lack of Practical Effects. Not only that, but the Prequel Trilogy flowed well into the Original Trilogy and that's where the Sequel Trilogy completely misses the mark. A quote from Ian Malcom (Jurassic Park) really fits how I view what's transpiring: _"If I may... Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now..."_ If I may alter his quote a little: _"If I may...Um, i'll tell you the problem what what Disney is doing here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what George Lucas and others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge or fans for yourselves, so you don't take and responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of Lucas to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you knew what you had, you promoted it, packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now..."_ Disney didn't create this franchise, attract it's fanbase, and understand that the fanbase or public do not need a "reintroduction" into Star Wars. From their purchase of the franchise in 2012, it seems that their vision was not to "reintroduce" Star Wars, but to reimagine it. They took what Lucas created and use the main characters as a catalyst to inflate their own and you can see this in the film where Rey needs no training, in the comics where Ren holds a lightsaber that would've broken Vader, and interviews where Serkis states that Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader. Now, Luke is further degraded and is a complete bumbling fool as they "reimagine" portions of the "A New Hope" in animated shorts. In closing, let me state the obvious. I do not like this trilogy, but I have no issue if someone does as people have different interests. Yes, some trolls exist and only hate to hate, but that is a small portion of the overall fandom. No, it is not everyone who dislikes Ep VIII or the Disney Era as most are avid fans who use logic and critical thinking when discussing the films/Trilogy. Both sides of the spectrum need to understand and stop using overgeneralizations and ad hominems when describing the other side. This solves nothing, is not conducive to a discussion, only panders to one side, and proves that your position isn't as strong as you may think.
I would only add this one point to your fine post. This Trilogy was supposed to be the third Trilogy in a set of trilogies. From the extended Universe books there were many good ideas that could have been used. They failed. They essentially rebooted the story right as it was supposed to be ending.
Actually your use of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is ironic. I'm a Tolkien fan, and many like myself did not like what Jackson did with The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Jackson butchered many of the characters....especially in The Hobbit. While many of us excepted The Lord of the Rings, we wanted The Hobbit left alone....and man, did they fuck it up. After that Tolkien's son took back the rights and voted they would never be made into a film again. Unfortunately, he was forced to step down from managing the estate, and his kids put the rights back on the market....which is why we are getting a Netflix tv show....yay, can't wait to not see it. But you are absolutely right about Disney, but Disney has never stayed true to any of the source materials of stories and franchises they purchase. I would say the Narnia Chronicles is the closest they actually following the source material; at least from what I have seen, but even that wasn't all that close.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 Also as a Tolkine fan I really like TLOTR trilogy, it's The Hobbit that gets me. Aside from just being crummy movies by themselves (in my opinion) I think they really missed the mark on Tolkine's theme for the story. It took a fun children's story with a heart and turned it into a over-long special effects demonstration. And do I even need to mention the lack of hobbits in a story called "The Hobbit"? Should have renamed it to "The dwarves and the Elves."
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 i should've been a bit more clear as I was using them as an example of how to create a Trilogy that consistent throughout all of the films.
Thank you to those who mentioned the utter failure of the hobbit trilogy. #1 apparently was good. #2 I didn’t like but critically okay. #3 Was just bad, even I who is not a seasoned film critic knew instinctively that it was terrible. LoTR may not have been perfect but its still satisfying for me to watch as a low key Middle earth fan.
Even if they had completely missed the mark with garbage like TLJ all they had to do was reassure us that they would do better in the future and promise to rectify a majority of the mistakes the sequel had made, instead they insulted us and ignored any valid criticism of their films. That right there is why they are in free-fall right now trying to repair the damage, because of their hubris.
@@fettinaround How do you know they were organised campaigns to review bomb? I gave it a terrible audience score, but wasn't part of any bombing group. Also Critics have frequently given shit scores on films I that have ended up doing very well with audiences and vice versa. One thing I've learnt though, is critics often don't quite have the same feelings as the fan base.
@fettinaround, RT ignores reviews of under 2-stars when a movie/show has tons of 1 and 0.5 stars. There is a small program available which gives the accurate view of the TLJ which has a 9% score. I stopped watching after the TFA... It was not a good movie. I refused to see TLJ. I didn't want to see Rogue One but my sister forced me to. That movie was "okay"... and that's sad.
fettinaround “If you are not entertained, then the product isn’t for you.” I agree, that’s why we boycotted Solo. You seem to have forgotten that we did that.
@fettinaround, Oh, I forgot to mention, critics can be wrong you know. Rotten Tomatoes gave The Last Jedi a 91% score, yet Alita: Battle Angel only received a 61%. Looking at the view scores... that's inverted, lol.
I think Disney’s problem was they green lit a bad story and compounded it by trying force older Star Wars fans to forget about the old characters they really wanted to see continue their adventures in lieu of new characters that they had no investment in.
I think most people would have had no problems in accepting new characters leading the stories, IF they had cared to "pass the torch." The choice to not do this properly is something that I will never understand.
@@WLOUIS1024 so your vote was or would have been "Disney missed the mark with the ST" then? I tend to agree. Honestly, to this day I still can't fathom how TLJ made it all the way through production and into theaters. How is it possible that the production company that produces Star Wars movies, and all the people that work there, were hard at work on that movie and no one spoke up about how stupid the whole thing was. Did people just smile and give a thumbs-up, tell RJ it was great, and just be knowingly and completely fulla shit when they said it? Just to keep their job?? They're not worthy of working at LucasFilm in the first place. If I was part of the production and was involved enough to see what all was going on with the story and such, I'd've walked off the job. I could not in good conscience participate in that friggin movie's creation. And if I couldn't tell while it was in production (because it still needed to be edited and all that) as soon as I found out what TLJ was, I'd walk off the job. Actually, I'd probably have to be escorted off the job because I'd be yelling at everyone for what they'd done - and for making me participate lol. I think I'd feel like a hard-core Christian that just found out he took part in a human sacrifice. Like, "Hey look I thought I was here just to set up jumpy houses for kids, man - I had no idea these things were Satanic devices to steal children's' souls, man c'mon. This gonna be my last day I'm not really down with all that..." 😟
The biggest problems have been the treatment of Legacy characters and bad writing, both of which could have been avoided if KK had kept George's sequel treatments.
@@DaleESkywalker Not much is known except that Luke was supposed to be heavily involved in 7. The original script for 7 was being written by Michael Ardnt based on George's treatments. KK fired him because she thought Luke was stealing the spotlight from Rey and the new characters and George's treatments were thrown out.
Star Wars has ALWAYS been political, but George Lucas has never berated fans for not digging his story of a female-led rebellion overthrowing a faceless violent male-centric dictatorship. Lucas said many many times that Leia was the brain of the team, while Han & Luke were there for the heavy lifting. and, when he had the chance to make a series for children he decided to make the child lead a girl! has he ever attacked fans? no! has he ever made a female character who has the personality of a cardboard cutout? quite the contrary!
The thing is, George Lucas didnt always create good characters (look at how poorly Han was written if we are being honest), but at least they had *character*, both good and bad, and were memorable. With these new movies, Disney tried to make *STRONG FEMALE* characters, but completely forgot the character part of that. When fans asked where the character was, they got attacked
The OT was not political. Analogies can be concluded, but that's common to all timeless stories. I can draw parallels between The Lord of the Rings and China's cultural revolution, that doesn't mean those parallels exist or were intended. You've fallen into the trap of revisionist history. People are only now saying Star Wars was political. Up until last year it was always purely mythological.
Thor. What I think broke Star Wars was the producers worked for a surface level remake. They redid visuals and music and props which is a nice nostalgia trip but is only a short term joy. They did not focus their efforts on great character development and great emotional interaction. They did not recreate that and thus the current films dont have the long lasting effects.
Kylo Ren merely exists to be an inversion of Luke and Anakin. Instead of being a good guy making a bad choice for a good reason, or just a good guy, he’s a bad guy who wants to be even more evil and yet somehow “struggles with the light” for reasons...
@@jasonreynolds6643 I felt Kylo's turn on Luke was unfounded. He woke up and saw Luke with lightsaber on, then assumed Luke was afraid of him then murders everyone and starts the first order? I don't think so
Good point. Part of that emotional interaction for me was the SW universe itself. George Lucas established the rules, so the 6 films feel consistent, butthe 7th and 8th break everything apart.
you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are mad by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
I don't think that an SJW agenda is what messed star wars up. With the Last Jedi, they stabbed us with the knife. Once saying publicly that we are just "Toxic" or "sexist" instead of just admitting that they can't please everyone. They just try to say "Our movie is perfect and if you don't like it you are a stupid idiot and a manbaby." I feel like it is a mixture of the missing the mark and then attacking the fans.
Did they attack you personally? Your comment basically says "It's not SJW" but "It's SJW" but "It's not SJW" but "It's SJW". Then you end with missing the mark and attacking the fans...about SJW. So which is it? You took on someone else's problem and made it your own because you didn't understand the narrative of the movies. It is the misunderstanding that missed the mark. Not the movies themselves.
@@BokaLokaToka the scene I am talking about broke the OT making it a bigger crime. So making everything the characters we love useless because one little ship could have ended it all in 2 minutes. It is the same for the PT .
Idk. Rian Johnson claiming that the legacy of the Jedi amounts to nothing but failure is even worse imo. Ignoring 2,000 years of peace throughout the galaxy in favor of two bad apples is objectively ridiculous.
The biggest problem is that the creators put their politics ahead of the story. The attack of the fans by the creators have totally dropped the ball here and not realized that instead of creating a story that could unite the fans behind a unifying individual like we did Luke they instead stomped on the created characters to make way for diversity and feminism with Mary Sue and Token the Comedic Relief is destroying a story that would unify people.
you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are mad by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
Having recently seen "How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World," I think that movie is a great example of telling a good story and then placing a good moral in at the end without being forced, with the message being a natural part of the story. Tell a good story first, like HTTYD:THW, and then any message won't be an issue because it won't be forced. That said, I really do think the internet, and the culture of the internet, where everyone is given a constant feedback loop of exactly what they want to hear is very responsible for a lot of the toxicity. Make a good movie first though, and the opportunities for toxic divisions decreases. And a great way to do that is to not build new characters at the expense of long-beloved ones. And of course, having a good story, where you can include any moral or message if you want without forcing it. Exactly like HTTYD.
My biggest problem with the movies at least is that they dont really care about expanding the lore and are just redoing stuff we've already seen. In TLJ I like the scene where Luke talks about the old jedi order and how darth sidious destroyed it but they dont dive deeper. The movie is set immediately after TFA so theres literally no room to add filler and we dont know much of anything about the new republic or first order in terms of their politics or how snoke rose to prominence. Instead they rely on books to fill in the blanks which should only be to tie loose ends and not explain what the movies failed to do as with the Jynn erso novel
I’m a newbie to Star Wars and I know what your talking about, I just found wookipedia and my God there’s a lot of lore, some of it being very compelling.
Yeah. Simply adding a time-skip would have helped TLJ SO much, since it would give time for things that needed time to happen to actually happen. It would justify how The First Order took over the galaxy, rather than 1 system getting blown up and the entire galaxy surrenders, and it would give Rey time to self-train/train with Luke, which would go a long way to at least vaguely justifying the insane power level she's shown.
I am just goung to ignore those new movie and stick with good old EU. It was not without mistakes and weak storylines, but it has soul and passion in it.
I'm starting to look upon them more favourably. I couldn't get past Dark Empire where Luke turns to the Dark Side on a whim and then later simply decides he doesn't want to be dark anymore. It was about as bad as TLJ, but cost less to make.
@@RictusHolloweye Legends EU is worse than anything the canon will ever do, Palpatine is not in tryclop females, Han Solo should come from a no-one instead of royal lineage, Chewbacca is Han Solo's friend because he wants instead of an stupid life-debth, Luke never follows Palpatine, the Death Star was not stolen by everyone and their mom, only Maul revives (but is a poetically a living dead-man living on borrowed time all his second life).
@@rosvel92, and yet Luke goes on to be a grand master. A husband to Mara Jade and Father to Ben Skywalker and does not die a coward. He was a coward in the Last Jedi never trained Rey and he failed at reviving the Jedi order.
@@matthewgaudet4064 Did you even attempted to watch the movie? Is clear Luke's aim was never to revive the Jedi Order, even if he told Kylo Ren he would, a gut feeling tells me Rey will call the Jedi quits. She is going to do A New Order, with new rules and new name, think how Jewish morphed to Christianism, but some Jedi will remain. Also Luke was not a coward, he pulled the massive Jedi mind trick to protect people, despite knowing it would kill him. Also, Luke marrying and having a son never made sense in a family structure never made sense, specially after the prequels, and it clearly never was what Lucas hinted at. And the Legends Luke never died because the Legends stories turned Lucas mortal characters into superheroes, completely misunderstanding thr original work😣
Star Wars is Episode 1-6, the old EU material pre disney, the Clone Wars and Rebels. My fandom for those properties will never go away. However, the current version of SW isn't SW...it's something entirely new and foreign to me. I feel that there is a cultural war for the soul of what SW should be...and asking us to "get along with the other side" is simply giving in and letting them win and have their way with the franchise that we fell in love in the first place. Stand your ground and speak your mind. The internet can be used for good and or bad. Use it wisely.
The only reason why I argue, is because I love Star Wars not just the movies, but the comics the games, the lore. can all the sjws or newbies say the same thing.
It's not the diversity that hurt it for me, it's the condescending, force-fed way they went about it. A giant virtue signal that was 100% forced and disingenuous. It felt like KK was man hating so much in how these movies were made. It wasn't about making a strong female character, it was about making a female character *BETTER* than the men and portraying all the men as either incompetent or evil. Name one time we saw a competent AND good natured male character in this movie....I'll wait....no forget the waiting, I'll just tell you it doesn't exist in these movies. Finn is a fumbling buffoon, Han is a dead beat dad, Luke is a quitter, Poe is a hot head that gets people killed for his "toxic masculinity", Snoke is an evil bastard, Kylo is a confused child who needs to be saved by a woman's love. It's all man hating in every respect when you break the movies down and see them for what they really are. I've gone on other forums and YT videos and guess what? This movie pissed off men of ALL COLORS. I want to make it clear that Finn is hated by black Star Wars fans for chasing a white girl the whole time and having no other purpose until Rose comes along and mucks up his potential legacy as a self sacrificing guy. Compare Finn to the story of Mace Windu. Compare Rey to Leia or Rose to Padme. Padme put her responsibilities before anything else. Rose was willing to throw away everything, including what her sister died for just to get with a guy she was fondling over. Rey, breaking all the already broken "gender barriers" by being given powers not seen by anyone else in the movies. Not Yoda, Windu, or the *CHOSEN ONE* Anakin. Then you have what could have been one of the coolest characters in the entire trilogy, Phasma. A woman who was domineering, played by a super talented actress many of us have come to know, love, and respect, from Game Of Thrones. Awesome looking armor, imposing, tall, awesome accent...all to be made into a trash compactor joke and then discarded as a simple stepping stone for our favorite buffoon, Finn. These movies had the talent but a few "artists" that were so insecure in their own political opinions that they felt the need to put art and creativity on the shelf to make glorified propaganda films. That is my beef with this whole trilogy. For the record my favorite Jedi of all time is Meetra Surik. THAT was a female Jedi I respected AND enjoyed playing as in KOTOR II. All these people saying we are woman haters are the people who don't know Star Wars beyond the movies. IMHO they are fans in name only, not wanting to take the time to know and understand the universe and lore of a franchise they supposedly "love". Stop wasting your money on phone apps and put them towards a Star Wars Audiobook or older game and get schooled on the finer points of this galaxy!
I HATE that JJ allowed Boyega to act like Kevin Hart, Chris Tucker from Rush Hour & Martin Lawrence all wrapped in a Star Wars movie. Why does Finn act and talk the way he does??? Why he is acting my guys from some of my favorite funny childhood black movies? It's galaxy far far away, they be speaking in a more regal manner. Not this modern day shit. F Disney
@@S2GUnit Agreed. All the more contemporary-sounding dialogue in these movies is another criticism that is NOT brought up by people often enough. It's yet another break in continuity/tone from the first 6 movies, which employed that stylized '30s/'40s movie speak. Lines like "Who talks first -- do I talk first or do you talk first?," "That's what I'm talkin' about!," and "Droid, please!" made me cringe far more than questionable prequel lines such as "There's always a bigger fish," "I'm haunted by the kiss you never should've given me," or "Hold me like you did by the lake on Naboo" ever did. : P
I liked Finn in TFA and was looking forward to him developing his force abilities. He clearly was force sensitive in TFA and even Kylo Ren sensed it. But in TLJ he was basically Jar Jar Binks..
Yup. On the other hand, "Into the Spider-Verse" was the perfect example of how to integrate diversity and realism into the story without it needing to be shoved down our throats. As fans we love a fantastic story, and if a diverse cast can be used as a vehicle for it then even better. But if the story is awful, then no amount of forced diversity can fix that.
It's been widely established that Star Wars was based on Joseph Campbell's work on comparative religion and world mythologies, New Lucasfilm should have brought in people who were passionate about Campbell's studies and mythology in general.
I can only like once... so.... 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I remember watching a TV show that explained how the story in Star Wars (episodes 4-6) followed the "hero's journey" template. That was pretty interesting.
@@alienspacebat5218 Very true. When, like people such as Kathleen Kennedy, you see Western civilisation as an oppressive racist patriarchy, you cannot make good stories as all elements of a good story come from traditional cultural values and tropes.
Alright, Thor. I agree with you on one thing: We all love Star Wars. But as pointed out in some of the comments you read out: The movies done by Disney only have the Star Wars logo slapped on them. Storywise they are an utter disgrace - which led many a fan (myself included) to reject them entirely and thus do not acknowledge them as Star Wars. Are they entertaining on their own? Maybe to some, yes. But do they make worthwhile additions to Star Wars as a franchise? No. With the possible exception of Rogue One, they have treated the established franchises like crap, only trying to cash in on nostalgia to sell tickets for a less than mediocre product - and one fans struggle to reconcile with established lore (especially in case of the very extreme example that is TLJ). I personally refer to the "Star Wars" movies done under Disney supervision as "Disney Wars" - and refuse to accept them as actual Star Wars so that i can still enjoy the previous six movies without having to remember the abominations that came afterwards. It may just be a mind-trick to myself, but it is working fine for me.
What’s my problem? The portrayal of Luke and Rey being too OP. Luke would never leave his friends like that and disappear waiting to die and Rey destroyed Kylo in the first movie so why should I be worried about her losing to Kylo in episode 9 if she’s already stronger
You’re probably right, and so is this other commenter, but either way, I hate that every franchise I enjoy has to be destroyed as collateral in this culture war. I never paid any attention to politics whatsoever prior to noticing weird stuff happening with Star Wars, mostly the talk surrounding casting choices in the force awakens. I was also pissed that the clone wars got canceled and thought that “Disney better make it up to me with episode 7” and then at first I thought they kind of did, I was pretty much good with tfa, then the last Jedi left the taste of sh!t in my mouth and I saw it all for what it was. it was all agenda driven from the start and they never gave a crap about delivering a good story, that or the agenda was secondary and we would never have noticed if they hadn’t colossally failed with the rest of the handling of it. Either way, the result is the same.
Natasel I effing hope so, I’d rather see Star Wars die than be abused any further. Maybe I feel way more strongly about it than I should, but people trashing all the forms of escapism I love and invading them with politics actually makes me generally more unhappy.
I do think the political crap is secondary though, they really just screw things up in many ways, all the game companies I like have been ruining stuff too, cough* cough* fallout 76 and destiny 2... Star Wars seriously hurts the most though, the phantom menace was one of the first movies I ever watched as a kid and I loved the crap out of the originals too when I watched them obviously, even after Disney I liked everything up until the last Jedi, including the force awakens acknowledging its flaws, the last Jedi retroactively ruined the force awakens and the rest of the franchise beyond repair.
@Natasel _"Got to admire Ruin's skill though."_ I've acknowledged his raw destructive power in a comment or two elsewhere before. It's actually kind of impressive when you step back and take a wider look at everything. Much like a nuke..
When I watched the last jedi, I didn’t hate it nor did I completely love it, it was overall neutral. I only began to dislike when Lucasfilm decided to harass and belittle the fans for disagreeing with the direction of the new trilogy and their clear ignorance of valid criticism. As for the sjws agenda, that only became more apparent later on. Overall for me it was Lucasfilm’s behavior that made me dislike the new trilogy but I believe its a combination of all those points
Your comment is one of few that makes the most sense of anyone's; however, it wasn't about you. Why would you take on someone else's problem and let it ruin your enjoyment of a film? Are you not emotionally stable enough to stand on your own two feet? Sure, there are problems with the direction, but most people that point out other problems - other than SJW agenda being pushed outside the films don't understand the narrative of the films.
@@DaleESkywalker Plenty of people "understand" the films. Its not that complex or subtle. If anything, it kinda beats you oer the head with the points its trying to make. Can we PLEASE kill this narrative that if you didn't like it then you must not have understood it.
I really disliked the movie (didn't think much of TFA either), but a trilogy can recover from bad movies (if 9 had been the bomb). The media and LFL going after fans afterwards just sealed the deal for me personally, my dollars have other places they can be spent.
The first film in the series was called a New Hope the last one should have been called Losing Hope because that's exactly what it's causing me and the majority of the fan base to do, and that's sad
Well accept for the fact, at the end of tlj, after losing their fleet, losing all their friends, having no allies coming to help them, even the death of Luke sky walker. Everyone was so happy, I’m not asking for a morbid ending, but everyone was just so hopeful, whose hopeful for the next movie!?
Yeah as my man Total War Destroyer said, it's 100% a combination of all those things but I think the most significant factor is Lucasfilm/Disney's and the Media's response to it all, denying any wrongdoing, throwing out insults and doubling down on their ways which aren't working making the situation go from bad to worse
Kelis 98 is being completely stupid. People do not believe that Rey isn't a 'traditional women'. People think she's a Marry Sue because she comes from no previously force sensitive family, yet she's able to defeat a SKYWAKLKER with no training although Kylo Ren has been trained by look for many years. That literally defines a Mary Sue! Give Ray a past that she doesn't know where she's been trained at the Jedi academy by Luke or some extremely powerful heritage (For example being a Palpatine, Kenobi or Skywalker, which would explain where her power comes from) then we'd understand! And how can Kelis 98 say there is no SJW agenda when there is a character *cough* Rose Tiko that is a female of Asian ethnicity that has no relevance in the film as her scenes serve no purpose to the end goal of the film. She's simply in there so that Disney look like a good company that isn't Racist/ Sexist. Disney need to understand that us fans aren't 'Racist' 'Sexist' or 'Man-babies' (I'm 16) and that if they give us well developed female characters that have a good backstory and serve a purpose to the plot (For example Princess Leia and Ahsoka Tano) that we will love those characters as much as we'd love any other male character that serves the plot of the movies.
I’m a newbie and I believed for a little while that perhaps, this was the way Star Wars just was. Oh boy was I wrong, not only have I gotten into legends, I have discovered a billion more interesting characters than the ones shown in the sequels, including a million female characters ( that Disney says never existed) and they are all compelling well written characters.
Figure I should post my comment here too: It kind of is all of the options. While the SJW agenda wasn't huge, it was there. That, coupled with terrible storytelling and pacing made them miss the mark. And said agenda lends itself towards attacking anyone who disagrees or even appears to disagree (e.g. fans who didn't like TLJ for literally any reason being labeled misogynists, bigots, and trolls). And finally, the fans expectation was for TLJ to be a good movie. What they got was a steaming pile of bantha poodoo. So it did indeed not meet said expectation. If I had to choose one? The one that hurt Star Wars the most was them attacking the fans. Star wars could have survived a bad movie. It could survive one misguided attempt to inject politics into said bad movie. It obviously could survive missed expectations. But when you go out of your way to berate, demoralize, and discredit your own fans REGARDLESS of your reasons, you lose any ability to win them back. I will NEVER watch another Star Wars movie. Because, to them, I will always be the sexist troll that didn't like their crappy poorly made "film". If that's how they view me, then why should I support them in any way ever again.
Standing ovation👏 I have to thank disney and lucasfilm, they starved me of good Star Wars media so much I discovered legends and now I’m a mega fan of actual great Star Wars stories and I have no need for their fanfiction.
I voted for #2 but I wish I had left a comment initially. While I can be made to see it is a combination of all 4, my reason for #2 is that a.) when you've grown up with the originals and b.) when you have read numerous novels (EU) and played the games, it is impossible not to develop a sense of "direction" of how the Star Wars universe should proceed. The truth is, you cannot command the force without learning how to use it; deciding if it benefits you solely or if what you learn should help benefit others. That has been at the VERY forefront since Luke on Tatooine with Obi-Wan. Even if you decide to go the route of the "Bendu", that is still a path that has relevance in Star Wars. STORY is why it is failing. Episode 7 was a remake and Episode 8 was beyond likeable. Even by just movie standards, those 2 movies do not stand up to their predecessors. And this is because it was about $MONEY. Like Marvel, make movies that have a story, congruence. Berating the actors and harping on this "SJW" stuff, is just not the real reasons. Not in total. Put people in charge of Disney's Star Wars that have KNOWLEDGE of the universe; and not just meeting the company's bottom line. Introduce Ashoka...OR...Rey should have had a double bladed light saber since she was proficient with the doubled sided staff. Consistency Disney. Stop "money grabbing" off the name and make a good story along with the movie. I could care less if they are female or a person of color.
I personally think it's a mix of differing factors, but it's mostly Disney having a misunderstanding of the property. From what I've seen since Disney bought the Star Wars property, they seem less interested in continuing the franchise in respect of what came before, and seem to be making Star Wars content for the sake of making money based on brand name recognition alone. This IS Disney we're talking about, a company people love to joke about for being utterly greedy and careless. As for the alleged "SJW" stuff, it is indeed a factor, but it was barely there when The Force Awakens came out, with the only hint being the mention that it would have a "diverse" cast, which at the time wasn't a super novel thing like it is with most Hollywood-produced media nowadays and was shaken off. The SJW elements are a more recent addition starting with The Last Jedi, and while it's true that Rey had Mary Sue elements to her in The Force Awakens, that was just simply a result of bad writing rather than how it was in The Last Jedi when it was utterly blatant and painful to watch. That's what happens when you write a directionless story simply because of brand recognition, you have so many different ideas that clash with each other that what you end up with an utter mess that almost nobody likes because they're just being made for money and as a desperate means of trying to stay relevant.
I think the real problem started with TFA....Disney was afraid to continue the story...which is what George Lucas would have done. Instead TFA was a reboot and they put everything back to what it was at the beginning of ANH basically telling us they were going to retell Star Wars their way...with a female hero and a move diversified cast....although Star Wars already had female hero and was diversified with all sorts of alien characters. Their response to the criticism TLJ received was more due to the realization that they totally screwed up their 4 billion dollar toy and are trying to say they didn't make a mistake...we are all mistaken. The problem with that is they don't get to control our minds and our minds told us that what they are making is not Star Wars....it's some gross, fan fiction that goes against everything we knew and loved about the original trilogy. It has also helped people who hated the prequels to realize that even though flawed they built on the Star Wars universe and compared to what we are seeing now they were works of art compared to Disney Star Wars. I am not excited about the way the franchise has been treated and Disney is trying to recreate excitement for something they killed. Destroying the past is going to bite them in the buttocks and probably leave an infection that will kill the franchise. You just don't destroy a fan base of millions around the world with crappy movies and expect to get a new fan base out of the deal...the new movies have no real appeal...they generate no excitement cause they are just based on nostalgia...TFA and than subversion of everything that came before...TLJ. Another note to Disney...do not try to remake characters from the OT or the prequel....unless you can use the actors that created the role....they got away with Obi Wan but it's very doubtful they can accomplish that feat again. There are a million stories they could have told...introduced new characters that they could have controlled and used for years but nope they didn't do that they just went about destroying the best franchise there was and it didn't take them long to do it.
Hi Thor. To be honest, it just doesn't have the spazz pass star wars movie does. And they don't put there love into it to make there movies, they just wanna make money and it ain't working so well.
True it’s all about the money, but you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are made by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
Man, I feel bad for Thor in this video. His heart sounds so heavy. He was just trying to interact with his audience via this poll, and people (from both sides of the fan schism) corrupted it, using it as a platform to unload their pent-up aggression. I would just like to add that I listened to all the comments presented with an open mind and took many of the messages into consideration for what I think about this era of SW, and why. And, I thank Thor for making this video so I could do so. Keep it up! #MayTheForceBeWithYou
Episode IX isn't going to heal anything. The concerns with sequel Star Wars go deeper than rage over Johnson's work. There was an executive decision made inside Disney before production started on The Force Awakens about what Star Wars IS - the decision was that Star Wars is the Rebels versus the Empire. Ignoring that the Empire was crushed in Return of the Jedi and that there was 30 years worth of Expanded Universe material exploring the New Republic, sequel Star Wars is just an Original Trilogy reboot. The names are changed but the roles are identical. The New Empire (aka the First Order) is supposed to be a terrorist organization, but it gets its Death Star planet blowed up in TFA and comes back stronger than ever only in-universe months later? The New Republic gets kicked back to Rebels by blowing up just six planets in a galaxy? These are mostly JJ and Kennedy or even Iger decisions, not Johnson decisions. The story for Star Wars isn't progressing to new things, its regressing to old safe standbys. And the opportunities lost have been significant. A New Republic storyline would have "reunited the gang" - Chancellor Organa-Solo, General Solo and Grandmaster Skywalker - in the first movie. Now with Han killed off and Carrie actually dead, that can never happen.
What happened to let Rian get away with that appalling script that agenda was nothing more than an excuse to excuse a script lacking in world building or anything that could support its status as a sequel. It's as if Rian upon learning he wouldn't be returning for episode 9 deliberately took steps to make it worse with the SJW agenda a convenient lie to hide behind. The cast deserved better.
alot the gen x boys who grew up with ot and luke as their hero are the main demographic who voted for trump in 2016 i think johnson and kennedy destroyed the luke character and didnt give us luke as a master jedi as pay back for trump
I would say that many decisions put the movies on the edge. Then the SJW material set a bomb. Honestly its more how that whole group has acted rather than the actual material in the movie. If that had been it, people would have noticed, but most would have moved on with their day. Instead, Disney blewup that bomb by lumping everyone with criticism into the category of disliking said material. At that point human nature took over, and the claim became true. This horrible habit of human nature has been seen so often, one might think we would learn from it and avoid it better, but instead, we get idiots like RJ that attack those that try to improve the overall just because it was his work and he apparently knew best.
The Force Awakens was self indulgent fan-fiction with a terribly un-creative plot that showed a love of the ideas of the original but an absence of consistency with the original saga. and a failure to appreciate the development of narrative that the original films put in place. It was disjointed and awkward and misplaced. The Last Jedi was pure self indulgent drivel that showed a complete failure to operate within the very framework of the saga that created the need for the movie in the first place. As per red letter media it was expectation defying in the way that if you paid someone to mow your lawn but they instead salted the earth and burned the grass. It was a bad film put together by people who don't know how to operate within an existing creative framework. It showed no conception of development of story lines and no real insight into the original films. Rogue One was fine, should have made more efforts to be in line with the originals but was still fine and enjoyable. Solo was ok but similarly out of touch with the original saga. Personally I am off the train and have no real excitement towards Episode 9, they fell off the narrative and are somehow not telling the same story and it was the original story I was watching to see develop. I am in the same place with Marvel, once the next Avengers is done I am getting off the train. Disney is taking itself far too seriously and needs to tell good stories rather than this amateur hour social engineering by out of touch people who really have no idea what world the rest of us live in.
This began with the Force Awakens no doubt about it. The Last Jedi is only the natural consequence of TFA at an ideological level which is the entire point of the Sequel trilogy. Just as Myth was the point of the OT trilogy and whatever was the point of the Prequels.
As much as I dislike the Force Awakens, I can’t really fault JJ Abrams (or whoever wrote the story) to copy and paste ANH when writing TFA. Before that movie came out, there was still a lot of distaste for the prequel trilogy; so much so that Lucasfilm probably feared that if they did anything anything new and bold, they might a lot of backlash as well. Because of that, I partially blame the prequel haters/OT purists.
Force Awakens was more lazy than bad. Last Jedi was more bad than lazy. The Force Awakens just copied the OT, but with a less compelling character who was pretty much flawless. The Last Jedi tried to do something unique, but so completely missed the mark that it could become a case study in how NOT to handle an established franchise. As for me, I am done with Star Wars. I didn't see Solo, I won't see episode 9, and I doubt that I would be missing much.
I was bored when I watched The Force Awakens in the theater. It was a competent film and it wowed people with nostalgia, but it did nothing new. This trilogy needed a much better starting point.
As much as i enjoyed The Force Awakens, I,m not going to deny its obvious problems. But i cant help but think that if TFA was a slap in the face, The Last Jedi was a kick in the balls.
Kelis 98 7:08 is naive af, "because women have larger roles," its not that they have larger roles (silly suggestion because Leia, Mon Mothma, Padme, Ashoka etc.......), its because in those roles, the characters are there mainly to berate men. The politics of the OT wasn't in your face and the same message could be transferred to any time in history. These films will not age well because, like with every other wave of feminism that came AFTER the right to vote issue (a valid problem at the time), this wave will be beaten because it is build on a foundation of lies and it will be more obvious, years to come, that there was an underlying agenda within the writing. Nobody cares if the characters are female or not, as long as they struggle through the journey that the story presents. Rey isn't struggling. She is met with challenges but they don't seem to faze her at all. And that is the problem.
Honestly, the agenda sucks so much. The OT works well with politics involved because it tells a fluent story which is mostly plot driven, much like the Mandalorian. To say there is no agenda is incredibly stupid, and you have to completely dismiss the facts or arguments that contradict what you want to believe. Overall though, I enjoy each movie until I watch a review. The reviews point out blatant flaws which drive us insane. But thats me. I think the real problem is that the script was written by people who don't understand star wars. They don't understand the progression of the characters or that fans watch star wars to escape reality. The cause of this is partially the agenda. Kennedy wanted people who agreed with her views, thus the writer's knowledge and experience with star wars is more limited. Thus, we get a bad story. Thats just stupid.
IMO, the biggest problem is that Disney decided to sweep aside lots of perfectly viable source material, and went YOLO instead. And now that their plan (or rather, the lack thereof) is backfiring, they're blaming it on the fan base. That is absolutely asinine!
I have only ever wanted to walk out of two movies in my life and the last jedi was one of them. I have not seen every movie ever made but being a star wars fan that kinda made me sad. I still think disney is to blame with how they handled creating the movies and then how they dealt with the backlash from fans. Just seems like all they saw were dollar signs and did not care what was made as long as it was fast enough to pump out every year. I don't know Lucas personally but he seemed to at least have his heart in the creation of his movies, where disney obviously does not. I just hope future things change this attitude with new people on new projects. I will always be a star wars fan even if I do not enjoy current projects.
Sequel trillogy feels empty. Not enough lore. And what lore there is just doesn't interest me. Never been interested in the rebels (resistance) and the ships etc I'm more into the Force and the Jedi
There wasn’t much lore for the original trilogy either until the prequels came out. There was only those Han and Lando books and a hint about Obi-Wan and Vader’s past. That’s it.
As a woman, I've wanted, but not demanded, strong and relevant female characters in movies. I was always bummed that Leia never got a chance to be a badass with a saber. All of the hype from TLJ and her badassery made me think FINALLY!!!! But no, we instead got space Mary Poppins - wth was that? What a disservice 7 & 8 were to her character. Rey: I thought certainly they'd have an opportunity to have a powerful and skilled female Jedi with a good story line. They missed the mark though, suddenly giving her powers with no training. They could've explained it in so many ways - one of which she could've had flashbacks of training as a child when she touched the lightsaber, explaining why she can use the force and possibly lead to her discovering why she was abandoned on Jakku. I suppose they could still tie up those loose ends but they should've started that path in episode 7. Phasma should've been an amazing antagonist but they butchered her story. I was very disappointed with her brief fight. They had great moments, like when Finn smacked her in the helmet. You see a bit of her face and her eye. This humanizes her, making you see that a real person is in that armor. Finn paused - good! But, they dropped the ball when instead of continuing the fight, with either Phasma dying at Finn's hands or escaping to fight another day, she dies because the ledge that she's on falls off. Rose had some great moments. I love how they made her as a somewhat timid but loyal alliance fighter who found her strength and bravery in the middle of chaos. But, I think they missed the mark a bit with her as well. She was brave and loyal to the cause - they were building her towards that - but in the end, she puts her loyalty aside to save her friend. I am conflicted; it reminds me of Luke leaving Dagobah during his training to save his friends. I get that but at the same time I always come back to the thought of did he make things worse by abandoning his training instead of completing it and then going after the Empire? Or, did this strengthen him in his training eventually because that experience never let him forget who he was fighting for and why fighting against evil was so important? Regardless, I truly hope that episode 9 is epically great and washes some of the bad taste that 7 & 8 left for so many fans.
The key to understanding all of this is psychology. I think, generally speaking, the fanbase can be divided into two groups. Those who are able to separate Disney Star Wars from their own personal identity, and those who can't. Group 1 can see Star Wars more objectively because...even though they may love it, they can see and admit when it's not being handled well. They can see when the quality of the writing, characters, and story telling starts to diminish. Group 2 on the other hand, because they have made "being a die hard Star Wars fan" a huge part of their personal identity, they are far less likely to see Star Wars objectively, because internally, they feel like that questions or undermines their identity as a person. Because of this, they feel they must love Star Wars, no matter how bad the quality of a particular Star Wars film.
I think it’s a lot of things. I don’t have a problem with the whole “feminist” narrative other than the fact that they’re clearly using it to absolve themselves of criticism, as evident by how they attack critics. I think the main problem is that the movies are just kind of, meh. They’re like Tofu, flavorless unless you add something to it. Like most people like Rogue One because of K2-SO and Vader in the hallway. Take those away and it’s just mediocre at best. I also hate the use of directors that are overrated and don’t really care much about Star Wars, like JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson. Though as much as i disliked TLJ, i have to give Rian props for at least trying to be original. It makes me think how if you watch Episode 1, everything’s different, new ships, droids instead of stormtroopers, yet it was still unmistakably Star Wars. Now look at TFA, we have Stormtroopers with a new apple look, but i’ve known a ton of people who can’t tell the difference (we like to razz people over it at /r/empiredidnothingwrong), it has TIE fighters, X-wings, pizza-shaped Star Destroyers, the Falcon. Add that to the copypasted plot and it just reeks of laziness.
1.) They didn't appreciate the love and attention put into star wars before they took over the brand. 2.) They let their Lucasfilm administrators push politics in both official social media account as well as how the stories are written. 3.) They made no attempt to make a cohesive product that makes sense and adds to the universe. Rogue one being the exception. 4.) JJ Abraham and Rian Johnson were given way too much power and freedom. They needed some guidance from Lucas or someone who cares about the overall starwars continuity. The strong female characters are only a problem because they are in your face and blatant. In TFA it was so bad that it is clear they gutted Finn's character just to try and make Rey look even more amazing. When your agenda is blatant and over the top that the plot and other characters suffer from it, you have a problem. It wasn't that they had this awesome plot in mind and that they would have a strong female character involved in it. They started from "we want a strong female character" and the plot was built up around it. And the fact that it was just a rehash of previous films made it all the worse.
About your 3rd point, a big problem with the sequels is that despite having the word 'episode' in the titles, the Star Wars films are NOT episodic but SERIALIZED. They should have plotted out the whole trilogy before shooting a single frame. I also agree with your 4th point.
joelt2002+ totally agree with you, well said. With the exception of Rogue One, all the people with real input who made episodes 7 and 8 don't seem to really love and understand and respect Star Wars, and they didn't plan out anything. The writing sucks, it's cut and paste from the OT, and the new characters who are meant to replace our favorites from the OT have no compelling or relateable, believable growth or arc to them. What a mess.
@@dougstephens1979 Yeah I understand that some people don't care for Rogue One. But as a movie it worked within the confines of the continuity as well as added value to it. Both the Rebellion and Empire were given a lot more depth than they had previously. And it was done so in a way to not take away anything from the OT or even the prequels. We were giving culture, religion, gritty action, star ship action, and even a taste of force use with Darth Vader. People complain that the 5+ characters that drove the plot didn't have character arcs and weren't fleshed out... As if that could be done in a single movie. Casian and Jyn both had arcs as did the Rebellion and Empire. The supporting characters were some what interesting and did their jobs of supporting the leads. Guy with repeater was dumb and should have been left out. Finn could have been a interesting character. Rey could have been interesting. I thought a Darth Revan plot line for her would have been an awesome steal (her memory being wiped and she was the leader of the Knights of Ren, not Kylo). The complete butchering of Han and Luke was unforgivable. Poe didn't seem all that interesting. But yes they were unrelatable because they lacked human qualities we could relate to. Finn somewhat had it, until he started butchering storm troopers later... Poe was given some character in TLJ but it was completely fabricated and did not jive with his character from TFA at all. It's heart breaking as there clearly was no one that loved star wars anywhere in the chain of development for these movies. JJ claimed he loved star wars, and maybe he did. He's also a garbage writer who's plots are always jumbled messes. He captures emotion and intensity pretty good as a director, but over all plot nearly always suffers when he's at the helm.
Those comments you read were amazing! I couldn't have said any of that any better!! I pray 9 is good. I can't wait for the days that we can all rave about the franchise again!
The biggest problem for me is the story. It feels so disconnected from episode 6 that it doesn't even feel like a sequel really, or events that would follow logically from episode 6. Like, episode 6 ends happily with a sense of hope for the future, and now all of a sudden there's this random 1st order thing that seems to have just popped up out of nowhere. All of the progress made in episodes 4-6 is thrown away. What we needed was a story that follows logically from episode 6, that doesn't try to rehash the old story in a new way (the rebels vs the 1st order in the place of the rebels vs the empire), but instead shows us a completely new chapter for the Jedi. There would obviously still need to be conflict, but conflict that actually makes sense and doesn't completely ruin established character development (Luke) or rehash old conflicts we've already seen (the empire/1st order vs the rebels).
The way Luke Skywalker was written in Last Jedi was the last straw for me. That was when the Saga went off the rails. Luke died on some backwater planet, a coward who never even faced Ben Solo and the First Order.
Episode 6 would be considered SJW propaganda? What? How? Everyone was skilled. Everyone was self sacrificing. No one was better than anyone else (except maybe Luke, but only because it was his story). No one was portrayed as being an idiot. None of those things are true about the sequel trilogy.
@@ryanclark1124 And? The Empire as a whole has strong Nazi vibes, but that doesn't make it an SJW agenda. It has a purpose in the story, and the characters respond to it as characters of that universe, not as vessels of present-day female empowerment or whatever.
@@ryanclark1124, does that make it SJW propaganda? Is it possible to disagree with an unnecessary and stupid war that our leaders failed to fight properly, and not be an SJW? I bet there are a lot of Vietnam Vets who disagree with that war. Are they SJW's? Side note: To any Vet, from any war, including this one. Thank you so much for your service! I am eternally grateful.
@@Kahless_the_Unforgettable You make the mistake of thinking I'm arguing with you. Just pointing out a fact. But the questions you raise are really crucial. What is art, what is propaganda, and are they ever the same thing? I don't think there are easy answers.
Ok I had never heard of a SJW until a month after I saw the last Jedi (I don't follow politics that closely) and when I was watched it I thought wow there are a lot of Democrat ideas in here casino planet where the rich supply weapons to both sides says Capitalism is bad. They add a space horse track to say animal cruelty (I love and are sympathetic to animals but it didn't belong here maybe a filler episode of clone wars or rebels) and maybe gambling itself is evil. Rey needs no training to be more powerful than Jedi who have studied for decades or even centuries. And Holdo berates Poe treating their best pilot who just yesterday destroyed Starkiller Base and saved all their lives like a worthless "hot shot male". These are not only bad story ideas but are clearly political in nature to someone like me who pays little attention to politics and it contributed a lot to making episode 8 terrible! Also whoever thinks Return of the Jedi is filled with some kind of political propaganda is crazy it's the timeless story of good versus evil, tyranny versus freedom and the true power of family ties and the human spirit! I've never met anyone in real life who's offended by or cringes because of politics at Episode 6 and I can't believe many if any people like that truly exist!!!
This is why I respect both you and your channel. You read through the comments with little to no bias and gave a positive message at the end. We definitely arrived at the same end result, trying to ease tension in the divide that has formed. Much love Thor! 🙏🙏
Biggest point always missed: The creators blamed the fans for being sexist, while the best rated Star Wars filmof this generation was Rogue One, also with a female lead character. This just proofs that fans aren’t sexist, everyone claiming it is wrong and insulting. No wonder the fans got pissed and this whole topic caused an explosion of anger and rage. No one takes Rogue One as an example... Like so they see
I've loved star wars ever sinse I was a kid, and my aunt rented them for mu cousin and I to watch back in the early 90s. As such, what I am about to say hurts more me greatly. In order to save the fandom and legacy of Star Wars, I feel it would be best to let it die. If we only watch the movies that we have in our collections, and stop paying for merchandise, eventually new films will stop being made, and over time we can try to let the drama of the sequel trilogy fade into our distant memories.
Hey Thor, I love the channel, and wanted to thank you for being a messenger for both sides of the argument. Anyway, Disney has one shot of saving the community, have episode 9 be great-perfect, so that the fans have something to come together on.After a calming of both sides with a great movie, their plan should be getting people like Dave Filoni who care about Star Wars and are creative enough not to repeat the originals or do the complete opposite, but do their own story. Then after Disney has a staff of nerds who care about star wars, they should give the fans what they want: Kenobi, Maul, Palpatine, Vader, and other movies about the characters we love, but only if the story is good. Jesus fucking Christ that was a long thing, sorry mate.
Fans, I take it the Prequels have been destroyed then. I must say your here sooner than expected. In the name of the Star Wars Fandom your arrest Disney. Are you threatening me toxic man babies. The box office will decide your fate. I am the box office. Not Yet. It’s treason then. [a great battle ensures before Disney is cornered] The oppression of the mouse shall never return. You are under arrest, Mickey. No no you will pay!! [Lucasfilm arrives after Fandom strips Disney of its money] Lucasfilm, I told you the fans we’re trying to take over. Don’t listen to him Lucasfilm. I’m going to end this once and for all. You can’t he must stand before the box office. This man has control of the box office and the media, he’s to dangerous to own Star Wars
I am not sure that the films have an extreme or unusual left wing agenda. This is Hollywood, it's all left wing and politically correct. The issue is that they made bad movies, and then used politics to deflect criticisms and attack the fans. Princess Leia was a strong woman who was a balanced character aswell. She wasn't a Mary Sue, she wasn't afraid to take action and be in charge and this was in the 70s times that were radically different in terms gender relations compared to today. Rey's character is poorly written. I blame J.J Abrams, Ryan Johnson, and KK. I think the fans would certainly have accepted another Leia type character, or a Mary Jane Skywalker, another super strong female character. The issue is that in this current climate the SJW agenda demands a perfect female character, hence we got Rey, a perfect self insert character. Hence the old characters were changed and discarded to make way for a new PC present.
So much drama! Hahahaha. I love it! My wife just called me a manbaby for watching this whole video. On a serious note though its Disney's Opinions and the Fan's Opinions for causing all this trouble. The Force Awaken's goal was to ignite the love of Star Wars by giving us something similar (too similar), The Last Jedi tried to give us something divisive. Id say both movies are great for doing what they both set out to do. I would like them to tone it all down a bit though and make them more for the fans.
Why I think Disney green lit the Sequels as they were. Disney wanted to ensure it had some audience in the form of those concerned about social justice, since traditional fans were more of a unpredictable element, a gamble of sorts. The SJW agenda/flavoured plots were green lit because most of Hollywood doesn't truly understand what makes a great story. So Disney wasn't confident enough it could tell a story that appeal to fans and maybe secure some new ones. Hollywood has mastered many things about what makes successful movies, like VFX and stunts and production values, composing, editing, and marketing but what exactly makes a great story still baffles them. Why so many reboots or sequels or adaptions rather than truly new IP. Those blaming manbabies are blind, either by choice or inability to look beyond their own point of view, to the facts that don't support their theories. The Last Jedi didn't advance women in Sci fi by any way that remarkable. In fact in that aspect TLJ finally caught up to Sci Fi the 1970's. Happy to cite examples if needed. If anything Disney set SW women back by eliminating the EU and its multitude of powerful women written into the Eu by making it nothing more than Legends.
Disney wanted to broaden its appeal and there was no solid evidence at the time that writing stories that highlighted Social Justice themes/goals more would isolate fans.
The issue is the domino effect. It started with LucasFilm ditching the EU and making their own canon. That forsook and pissed off the hardcore fans. Then there was TFA which frustrated many more for many reasons, it being a carbon copy of ANH being the most popular reason. Then came EA's handling of the Star Wars games. First with Battlefront then with cancelling both RPG games in production. And then of course them ording a cease and desist on the KOTOR mod that fans have been pining over for years. And of course, LucasFilm itself and how it handled Star Wars outside the movies, books Etc. The whole "Force is Female" thing among others. Then came TLJ which caused the internet to explode. With its politics getting smashed in your face, its degrading of the male charactors, the breaking of the preestablished lore, the handling of Leia and chewie, and of course, what they did to Luke. Then, finally, as fans went nuts, LucasFilm bit back. Or rather, didn't stop or punish their employees from biting back. Disney/LucasFilm has been mishandling Star Wars from the beginning, hemorrhaging fans along the way, and its snowballed into what its become today. This has been a gradual thing that everyone's ignored for the most part. TLJ merely was the spark that made it public and, dare I say it, popular, to hate on what's been done. I mean, how many of you knew that the EU fans were so pissed at losing their lore that they bought a billboard in LA with the #GiveUsLegends massage? All they wanted was the old EU to be canon alongside the new lore so that it could continue. Something like what Marvel or DC have. They even put the billboard right outside LucasFilm so to force Kathleen to see it everyday when she went to work.
After long thoughts and debate I have finally figured out what happened and why the movie is such trash. It’s the fact that Disney completely disregarded the previous movies and destroyed the foundation the whole series was built on. It broke the physics and fundamentals of what Star Wars was, and that is why it’s so bad. The hyperdrive scene? The yoga HITTING LUKE with his cane??? Yoda blowing shit up AS A GHOST? It’s just bad writing and creates SO MANY plot holes
What I see, is the prevailing attitudes outside StarWars, in greater western civilization, found their way IN. I see this as profoundly sad Thor Skywalker, not because change is inevitable...but because some of what fuels this division is a pernicious type of change. By scratching the surface, and digging alittle deeper, I see a cultural shift occuring. Traditional/centrist, (older generations), Vs postmodernist, far left (particularly college kids taking humanitys). With regular, grounded people getting caught in the middle. I heard one comment about "just making a StarWars movie for StarWars fan's, and people will come". I agree with that! Poor Luke didn't need to be pushed aside ☹️, or Han Solo killed for a lame story arc.
Hoo boy, there are some surface of the sun hottakes in this video. I mean, I'm not even going to argue that the comments that attack people for voting "agenda" are necessarily completely wrong, but so many of them are just so...nasty. At the end of the day, political correctness is a cancer that detracts from the creative process, where the goal becomes "being diverse" and "inclusive" instead of "making a good story." And the simple observation that some fifteen thousand people have made is that Disney Star Wars has largely abandoned the goal of making good stories in favor of being inclusive for its own sake. A fringe minority would be complaining about the movies if they had the exact same cast, but had good stories instead. And I'm quite tired of jerkoffs telling me, a black man, that I'm somehow a monster for thinking these things. I just want good Star Wars. Nothing more, nothing less.
The other week I saw a video purporting to highlight tweets by Rian Johnson against SW fans. Didn't watch that waste of time, but I did check the description and follow a few links they cite ... and when you look at the actual tweets in question, it's very clear that in some cases, the *fan shot first.*
Toxic fans: I have brought Peace, Freedom, and Justice to my view of the new Star Wars movies! Regular Fans: TFs, my Allegiance is to the Star Wars fandom, to diverse opinions! TFs: *iF YouR NOt wITh Me, THeN yOuR mY EneMY!* RFs: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
There is no possibility for healing. What's done is done. You can't have one side feel (regardless of how true it is) as if they're being unjustly called bigots, racist, manbabies, incels, etc. and expect a "good movie", i.e., more agreeable movie, to heal that rift. Personally, I don't take anything personally said on the internet. My dislike for Disney Star Wars is a dislike for the films themselves, starting with TFA. I will never walk into another movie theather and pay to watch a "Star Wars" film. You read a comment which said more or less, that from the Prequels to TLJ, "it's all Star Wars to me". And that the best you can hope for, that the franchise can produce enough spectacle for that quality of moviegoer who has no discernable taste between any movie with the name "Star Wars" in it to be sufficient to bring in enough profit to make the next movie. That the franchise becomes about X-Wings, AT-AT's, Star Destroyers, and the Force and not about characters, so that Disney can plug in whomever they want in these ships and force characters and push out spectacle after spectacle. It's incredible to see how many rebooted franchises are out there, some with such little popular recognition you wonder why they even bother use the original series. These rebooted franchises are virtually unrecognizable from their origins, completely altered histories, characters, timelines, etc. but they have developed peculiar fanbases who evidently eat it up, and that's all Disney hopes to accomplish with Star Wars. If JJ in episode 9 can make enough people cheer with Lens Flars, X-Wings, Tie Fighters, and a light saber duel, then he has done his job. Things change, whether it be people, industries, marketplaces, etc. etc. It's up to each of us to decide to accept, change with it, or abandon it.
Well this is very funny that i just realized this conflict in SW that we’re experiencing is exactly the same way our present politics in America is going and it has bleed over into our escapisms its truly sad it seems like some of us in society NOT ALL but some have this wacky notion that if you don’t agree with my views you are racist sexist etc thus why i think all the SW drama exists in most aspects but thats my opinion
*They want to make star wars stuff* Fans: Yes let's do it!! *But they made immediate plans to make drastic changes to met asap release dates to pump out alot of movies for the sake of money by disregarding everything except the movies and the clone wars show have already shown by now* Fans: you son of a bitc-
I’m hopeful that the fandom can unify and heal, but I think the problem that many of the poll results has highlighted is that Star Wars is now connected to a number of political issues, it is political now. And so the division and vitriol in the fandom is a microcosm of the division and hate we have been seeing in politics lately. It’s weird that Star Wars fans can hate each other so much for holding opposing views, but I think it’s the same thing we see in politics when people say that all conservatives are racists or that all liberals don’t care about the quality of country and just want to push an SJW agenda into everything. Neither side is willing to listen and I think that’s a big part of the problem in both politics and the fandom. This unfortunately means that we will either have to detach Star Wars from politics or strive to find healing in the political sphere too. And both of these solutions are extremely difficult.
My problem with the new trilogy has nothing to do with the sjws politics It's has with the story They just modified the story from a New Hope and Empire Strikes Back and give us TFA and TLJ nothing knew just fuking copy paste
Yeah, I think Disney missed the mark with the movie, and lack of continuity with existing characters. Luke was not Luke, When did Leia get force powers and learn to use them, etc. And the Haldo maneuver breaks every single death-star and death-planet battle by making them a waste of life. A single droid in an X-wing with a hyperdrive could have ended it before it was a problem that needed pilots to risk there lives in a battle. It doesn't matter how complex or expensive a Hyperdrive is, Every single X-wing lost had a Hyperdrive unit in it, thus one vs hundreds nullifies that argument against Hyper-kinetic-missileing a death star with a single X-wing. The media belittlement and social media outlash at fans that didn't like the movie, was unfortunate at best. It didn't help matters at all, and made some things worse.
My big issue was Rian Johnson ( I know, beating a dead horse at this point) he is so numb to criticism and thats what bugs me the most is that he wont admit that he at least did something wrong. And yes a comparison between George and Rian is also overdone but I at least want to provide an example. Look at Jar Jar Binks, lets be honest people were not fond of so him at first and as a result hes barely in ep 2 and 3. Rian just wont admit theres flaws in work. And im not saying every movie is perfect if you get real nit-picky you rip apart some really solid stories but for me personally my disconnect comes from RJ and TLJ.
I feel as though whenever Disney tries to take a stride forward the get moved two steps back. My problem with the Star Wars movies post Force Awakens was that alot of scenes, locations dialogue, and general set/window dressing felt out of place. Certain things don't feel like they belong or make any sort of microcosm of sense even when taking what concepts like Expanded Universe brought into play out of the equation. It feels as though there's a missing piece to the machine and what doesn't help is the poorly integrated new supplementary material. They can't decide whether to completely change everything or to try and poorly integrate old ideas back in. They need to make a choice and stick with it rather then throw a million things at a wall to see what sticks then insult fans who don't like what they're doing.
Good comments, good video. I missed the vote, but I will leave my view here. I'd be one of those 4 %. As a fan of the Star Wars Legends, EU, I highly value creativity and well written characters. That is none existing in the sequels. Quick profit mattered the most, and a good story took a backseat to the esthetics. Plot wholes, incompetant villains, op heroes (Mary Sue), no world building, none sensical decisions are the result of that. Glad I have the EU...!
As someone who likes the sequel trilogy thus far (flaws and all) my biggest problem with the movies is repetition of Empire vs. Rebels and redressing it as First Order vs. Resistance like its a completely different thing. A NEW ERA should have been introduced. Something the Star Trek (pre STD) and Stargate franchises realized within the narrative of their storytelling. 1) The First Order should have never been created because its a redundant copy of a failed regime. 2) The Resistance should've existed because Leia and Rebels would have strengthen the Galactic Republic. 3)The Jedi should have came back with less flaws as to not be dismantled by a Sith's evil scheming again. Like allowing marriages, not insisting on detachment from relationships, not being so politically influenced etc... I can go on beyond this points but they are moment influencing element of the world building in the EU. My point is that Lucasfilm/Disney and even EA are too afraid invent new things. It's not impossible the whole Old Republic Era is proof of invented something new. But because they all want a certain amount of money to be made they are too afraid to gamble on the obvious desires of the fanbase.
Like I've said before if they focused on making an excellent movie with great writing and such,that happens to be a star wars movie or in the star wars universe, then no one would care or lash out in the way they have for the sequels. By trying to satisfy multiple people they stretch themselves to thin and end up with sub par content....make a great movie and it won't matter that the star wars name is attached to it, it'll bring new fans and satisfy the old ones...not to mention an objectively good movie will make tons of money so no need to worry about that either
I like how their own agenda is flawed. The characters take the time to free animals that damage property but will only be recaptured. And they leave the slave kids without so much as lifting a finger to help them.
My reason is that there was no plan before making this "trilogy". My other main problem was that Last Jedi was not a sequel, it was a part 2 of Force Awakens. So we should have 2 more movies made since Disney only cares about money, with the 2 other movies those could help fix the movie. Episode 9 this year could be the real episode 8 and in 3 years from now we get the final episode and can help save star wars. But it's too late to save it, thanks to Rian Johnson thinking that Last Jedi was the final Star Wars movie
Disney did not develop the plot line first, then they did a wishy-washi approach how to develop the movies, brilliant idea when you are producing a trilogy and RJ with his subpar execution killed the franchise. The SJW thingy did never bother me that much, maybe Iam to old for that but what really pissed me off where poorly written characters and plotholes as big as Vredefort Dome. TLJ is a 101 case how not to make a movie. Its as if the lousy script and story telling where done on purpose, I know it was done on purpose but who in their right mind would think that that was a good ... NVM, SW is dead!
8:20 I agree with casually: A youtube Channel so heavily. The fans have caused all of this to happen and now they're mad. "We" are responsible for what is happening now.
I recently watched "The Witness" miniseries on Amazon. It stars Kate Beckinsale. She plays an amazing, well-developed character. One with which I could empathize and appreciate her strengths. The exact opposite of Rey. How anyone can think she isn't a Mary Sue is beyond me. No character development other than she's an orphan. No training other than some practice alone with a lightsaber that makes her look like she'd be a joke in combat. This is also a huge problem with Disney's desire to tell every minute of the main characters' stories. If TLJ had taken place several years later, with some flashbacks to Rey's training from Luke, her skills would've been much more believable. Finn would've had time to recover from his entire back being gashed open. The SJW agenda is a symptom. The problem is these directors have no passion or imagination for Star Wars.
About how to heal the fanbase I think its a two part issue that both can be done separately if people wants to: -First part is the leadership in Disney and LF who must start to take us fans and our opinion towards theyre movies and tv series more series. They do not have to accept everything we say cause thats more or less impossible but they have to ACCEPT it. Meaning they cant let theyre staff slashing those haters in media and calling us names etc. They also need a solid plan going forward since they have showed us that you cant really make good movie trilogies by feelings and by giving "carte del blance" to the directors. Planing is key here. -Second part is we as a fan group must try to accept that we have different opinions in all thing we love but still a very common ground in our love for Star Wars. We have to accept opinions we does not like as long as they are respectful towards other fans and not goes as far as hating or bigoting actors and other creative staff for the work they are not in charge of. And as a last thing we as movie and tv series watchers MUST learn how to separate actors from theyre parts and so on. Its silly that media can get to blow up a very noise but small part of the fanbase who can not do that basic separation of character from actor at all. If you can not do that, seriously, go and read a comic book or something. Johan.
They have to discredit or ignore any proof or arguments that show the agenda. Now, everyone ignores stuff they don't agree with, but to then insult a community of people who understand the argument better is insane.
Rey is a Mary Sue because she did not train and her powers have no compelling source.
Luke and Anakin both trained and still lost their first duel onscreen.
And lost an arm. They actually suffer through these battles. What did Rian do? throw a lightsaber (sorry, a "lasersword") at Rey's head.
Weak and pathetic writing.
@@denkerbosu3551 C'mon now, Rey DID get a scratch on her cheek...
@@tomatodamashi btw, in TFA, she actually got a sucker punch while fighting 2 dudes that tried to take BB-8.
This means that in a few days, she went from getting sucker punched by 2 random men, to just getting a scratch fighting what? 8 Royal Guards with light weapons?
I think this trilogy would be better (not much but a little better) if they have one movie (or something like that) that consists of nothing except Rey training.
@WillFanofMany I think someone is due a few limb loss, I cant think of a main character that has lost a limb yet, all I'm saying is someone better lose an arm in episode 9.
It's been a while since I had a long post, so let's just jump into it...
The Planet of the Apes Trilogy (2011 - 14)
The Dark Knight Trilogy (Nolan: 2005 - 12)
The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (2001 - 03)
The Hobbit Trilogy (2012 - 14)
All of the above are less than two decades old and never jeopardized the story or vision that the creative staff had. They understood that they weren't making three individual movies, instead showing three chapters of one story and that's one of the biggest mistakes that Lucasfilm committed. Each of the above films flowed smoothly from one into the other and this created memorable trilogies. With Nolan's, it's a testament to how well he is as a director/writer because Ledger's legendary adaptation of The Joker was set to continue into the final film of his trilogy. *_This_* is a great example of having one story and vision for a trilogy.
I can understand attempting to venture into a new direction, but in this, Lucasfilm needed to be diligent in their effort to have one story be explained among three films by different directors with three different visions. Unfortunately, Rian Johnson confirmed that Lucasfilm had zero vision for this Trilogy and that is a difficult pill to swallow, considering this is the biggest franchise in cinema history. It still boggles my mind that there never was an overall plan for this trilogy; that no one could understand the outcome of such a decision.
This goes much deeper than just creating a Trilogy and making it coherent and that's the fact that this follows, and is directly tied into, two previous Trilogies. The Original and Prequel Trilogy have, to an extent, divided the fans before this trilogy did, but the overall story in both Trilogies were consistent and flowed well from film to film, even if the fans didn't like the acting or lack of Practical Effects. Not only that, but the Prequel Trilogy flowed well into the Original Trilogy and that's where the Sequel Trilogy completely misses the mark. A quote from Ian Malcom (Jurassic Park) really fits how I view what's transpiring:
_"If I may... Um, I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now..."_
If I may alter his quote a little:
_"If I may...Um, i'll tell you the problem what what Disney is doing here, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what George Lucas and others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge or fans for yourselves, so you don't take and responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of Lucas to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you knew what you had, you promoted it, packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now..."_
Disney didn't create this franchise, attract it's fanbase, and understand that the fanbase or public do not need a "reintroduction" into Star Wars. From their purchase of the franchise in 2012, it seems that their vision was not to "reintroduce" Star Wars, but to reimagine it. They took what Lucas created and use the main characters as a catalyst to inflate their own and you can see this in the film where Rey needs no training, in the comics where Ren holds a lightsaber that would've broken Vader, and interviews where Serkis states that Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader. Now, Luke is further degraded and is a complete bumbling fool as they "reimagine" portions of the "A New Hope" in animated shorts.
In closing, let me state the obvious.
I do not like this trilogy, but I have no issue if someone does as people have different interests.
Yes, some trolls exist and only hate to hate, but that is a small portion of the overall fandom.
No, it is not everyone who dislikes Ep VIII or the Disney Era as most are avid fans who use logic and critical thinking when discussing the films/Trilogy.
Both sides of the spectrum need to understand and stop using overgeneralizations and ad hominems when describing the other side. This solves nothing, is not conducive to a discussion, only panders to one side, and proves that your position isn't as strong as you may think.
I would only add this one point to your fine post. This Trilogy was supposed to be the third Trilogy in a set of trilogies.
From the extended Universe books there were many good ideas that could have been used.
They failed. They essentially rebooted the story right as it was supposed to be ending.
Actually your use of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is ironic. I'm a Tolkien fan, and many like myself did not like what Jackson did with The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Jackson butchered many of the characters....especially in The Hobbit. While many of us excepted The Lord of the Rings, we wanted The Hobbit left alone....and man, did they fuck it up. After that Tolkien's son took back the rights and voted they would never be made into a film again. Unfortunately, he was forced to step down from managing the estate, and his kids put the rights back on the market....which is why we are getting a Netflix tv show....yay, can't wait to not see it. But you are absolutely right about Disney, but Disney has never stayed true to any of the source materials of stories and franchises they purchase. I would say the Narnia Chronicles is the closest they actually following the source material; at least from what I have seen, but even that wasn't all that close.
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 Also as a Tolkine fan I really like TLOTR trilogy, it's The Hobbit that gets me. Aside from just being crummy movies by themselves (in my opinion) I think they really missed the mark on Tolkine's theme for the story. It took a fun children's story with a heart and turned it into a over-long special effects demonstration. And do I even need to mention the lack of hobbits in a story called "The Hobbit"? Should have renamed it to "The dwarves and the Elves."
@@thethoughtcriminal8786 i should've been a bit more clear as I was using them as an example of how to create a Trilogy that consistent throughout all of the films.
Thank you to those who mentioned the utter failure of the hobbit trilogy. #1 apparently was good. #2 I didn’t like but critically okay.
#3 Was just bad, even I who is not a seasoned film critic knew instinctively that it was terrible.
LoTR may not have been perfect but its still satisfying for me to watch as a low key Middle earth fan.
Even if they had completely missed the mark with garbage like TLJ all they had to do was reassure us that they would do better in the future and promise to rectify a majority of the mistakes the sequel had made, instead they insulted us and ignored any valid criticism of their films. That right there is why they are in free-fall right now trying to repair the damage, because of their hubris.
That's an interesting way to look at it.
@@fettinaround How do you know they were organised campaigns to review bomb? I gave it a terrible audience score, but wasn't part of any bombing group.
Also Critics have frequently given shit scores on films I that have ended up doing very well with audiences and vice versa. One thing I've learnt though, is critics often don't quite have the same feelings as the fan base.
@fettinaround,
RT ignores reviews of under 2-stars when a movie/show has tons of 1 and 0.5 stars. There is a small program available which gives the accurate view of the TLJ which has a 9% score.
I stopped watching after the TFA... It was not a good movie. I refused to see TLJ. I didn't want to see Rogue One but my sister forced me to. That movie was "okay"... and that's sad.
fettinaround “If you are not entertained, then the product isn’t for you.” I agree, that’s why we boycotted Solo. You seem to have forgotten that we did that.
@fettinaround,
Oh, I forgot to mention, critics can be wrong you know. Rotten Tomatoes gave The Last Jedi a 91% score, yet Alita: Battle Angel only received a 61%. Looking at the view scores... that's inverted, lol.
I think Disney’s problem was they green lit a bad story and compounded it by trying force older Star Wars fans to forget about the old characters they really wanted to see continue their adventures in lieu of new characters that they had no investment in.
New characters were needed after episode six. It was expected. They just don't have a good, consistent, or coherent story or personality. Lol.
Does anyone else think Finn should have been force sensitive?
I think most people would have had no problems in accepting new characters leading the stories, IF they had cared to "pass the torch." The choice to not do this properly is something that I will never understand.
Isaiah Albers I do because I am personally sick of the last Of the Jedi storyline.
@@WLOUIS1024 so your vote was or would have been "Disney missed the mark with the ST" then? I tend to agree. Honestly, to this day I still can't fathom how TLJ made it all the way through production and into theaters. How is it possible that the production company that produces Star Wars movies, and all the people that work there, were hard at work on that movie and no one spoke up about how stupid the whole thing was. Did people just smile and give a thumbs-up, tell RJ it was great, and just be knowingly and completely fulla shit when they said it? Just to keep their job?? They're not worthy of working at LucasFilm in the first place. If I was part of the production and was involved enough to see what all was going on with the story and such, I'd've walked off the job. I could not in good conscience participate in that friggin movie's creation. And if I couldn't tell while it was in production (because it still needed to be edited and all that) as soon as I found out what TLJ was, I'd walk off the job. Actually, I'd probably have to be escorted off the job because I'd be yelling at everyone for what they'd done - and for making me participate lol. I think I'd feel like a hard-core Christian that just found out he took part in a human sacrifice. Like, "Hey look I thought I was here just to set up jumpy houses for kids, man - I had no idea these things were Satanic devices to steal children's' souls, man c'mon. This gonna be my last day I'm not really down with all that..." 😟
The biggest problems have been the treatment of Legacy characters and bad writing, both of which could have been avoided if KK had kept George's sequel treatments.
What were George's sequel treatments?
@@DaleESkywalker Not much is known except that Luke was supposed to be heavily involved in 7. The original script for 7 was being written by Michael Ardnt based on George's treatments. KK fired him because she thought Luke was stealing the spotlight from Rey and the new characters and George's treatments were thrown out.
I've never heard the term "KK" before. I'm assuming you're referring to J.J. Abrams. What's it mean?
Oh, Katherine Kennedy. My bad. Sorry.
*Disney* should never have brought back Luke, Han and Leia.
*Return of the Jedi* should have been the last movie of the *Skywalker* saga.
Star Wars has ALWAYS been political, but George Lucas has never berated fans for not digging his story of a female-led rebellion overthrowing a faceless violent male-centric dictatorship. Lucas said many many times that Leia was the brain of the team, while Han & Luke were there for the heavy lifting. and, when he had the chance to make a series for children he decided to make the child lead a girl!
has he ever attacked fans? no!
has he ever made a female character who has the personality of a cardboard cutout? quite the contrary!
The thing is, George Lucas didnt always create good characters (look at how poorly Han was written if we are being honest), but at least they had *character*, both good and bad, and were memorable. With these new movies, Disney tried to make *STRONG FEMALE* characters, but completely forgot the character part of that. When fans asked where the character was, they got attacked
@@trinalgalaxy5943 yes!
I would like to see what story George had for Rey and for Luke. We only know some of it from artbooks.
Well yes, but he still put the story before the politics,
The OT was not political. Analogies can be concluded, but that's common to all timeless stories. I can draw parallels between The Lord of the Rings and China's cultural revolution, that doesn't mean those parallels exist or were intended. You've fallen into the trap of revisionist history. People are only now saying Star Wars was political. Up until last year it was always purely mythological.
Its Crap writing. Lousy vision.
Can we move on now ?
Thor. What I think broke Star Wars was the producers worked for a surface level remake. They redid visuals and music and props which is a nice nostalgia trip but is only a short term joy.
They did not focus their efforts on great character development and great emotional interaction. They did not recreate that and thus the current films dont have the long lasting effects.
Kylo Ren merely exists to be an inversion of Luke and Anakin. Instead of being a good guy making a bad choice for a good reason, or just a good guy, he’s a bad guy who wants to be even more evil and yet somehow “struggles with the light” for reasons...
@@jasonreynolds6643 I felt Kylo's turn on Luke was unfounded. He woke up and saw Luke with lightsaber on, then assumed Luke was afraid of him then murders everyone and starts the first order? I don't think so
This.
Good point. Part of that emotional interaction for me was the SW universe itself. George Lucas established the rules, so the 6 films feel consistent, butthe 7th and 8th break everything apart.
you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are mad by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
I don't think that an SJW agenda is what messed star wars up. With the Last Jedi, they stabbed us with the knife. Once saying publicly that we are just "Toxic" or "sexist" instead of just admitting that they can't please everyone. They just try to say "Our movie is perfect and if you don't like it you are a stupid idiot and a manbaby." I feel like it is a mixture of the missing the mark and then attacking the fans.
That agenda gave a story in TLJ that made no sense. What was the cliffhanger leading into Ep9?
MovieBlocks Productions A.K.
Well they weren’t talking about everyone and the term toxic fan has been used to describe prequel haters it’s nothing new
Blaming all this on an SJW agenda is playing right into the hands of sycophants and gets us nowhere.
Did they attack you personally? Your comment basically says "It's not SJW" but "It's SJW" but "It's not SJW" but "It's SJW". Then you end with missing the mark and attacking the fans...about SJW.
So which is it? You took on someone else's problem and made it your own because you didn't understand the narrative of the movies. It is the misunderstanding that missed the mark. Not the movies themselves.
@@DaleESkywalker Man you are a broken record aren't you.
The thing that I really hate about the Sequels is that they ruined the previous movies with the ""Holdo Maneuver"".
I would disagree with that statement
How about Rey being stronger than yoda or Luke?
@@BokaLokaToka the scene I am talking about broke the OT making it a bigger crime. So making everything the characters we love useless because one little ship could have ended it all in 2 minutes. It is the same for the PT .
@@elusivei998 Good
Idk. Rian Johnson claiming that the legacy of the Jedi amounts to nothing but failure is even worse imo. Ignoring 2,000 years of peace throughout the galaxy in favor of two bad apples is objectively ridiculous.
The problem is obviously Disney lacking a plan. I like TLJ, but it's obvious Rian Johnson and J.J. Abrams weren't on the same page with their movies.
@IRONHILLdwarf * Yeah I would agree that Disney definitely isn't hiring people for the love of the films nor the lore
I agree!!!
The biggest problem is that the creators put their politics ahead of the story. The attack of the fans by the creators have totally dropped the ball here and not realized that instead of creating a story that could unite the fans behind a unifying individual like we did Luke they instead stomped on the created characters to make way for diversity and feminism with Mary Sue and Token the Comedic Relief is destroying a story that would unify people.
Did you forget Dave Filoni out of all creators?
@@vivekkandasamy5317 I'm talking about the movies not the cartoons.
you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are mad by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
Having recently seen "How To Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World," I think that movie is a great example of telling a good story and then placing a good moral in at the end without being forced, with the message being a natural part of the story. Tell a good story first, like HTTYD:THW, and then any message won't be an issue because it won't be forced. That said, I really do think the internet, and the culture of the internet, where everyone is given a constant feedback loop of exactly what they want to hear is very responsible for a lot of the toxicity. Make a good movie first though, and the opportunities for toxic divisions decreases. And a great way to do that is to not build new characters at the expense of long-beloved ones. And of course, having a good story, where you can include any moral or message if you want without forcing it. Exactly like HTTYD.
My biggest problem with the movies at least is that they dont really care about expanding the lore and are just redoing stuff we've already seen. In TLJ I like the scene where Luke talks about the old jedi order and how darth sidious destroyed it but they dont dive deeper. The movie is set immediately after TFA so theres literally no room to add filler and we dont know much of anything about the new republic or first order in terms of their politics or how snoke rose to prominence. Instead they rely on books to fill in the blanks which should only be to tie loose ends and not explain what the movies failed to do as with the Jynn erso novel
I’m a newbie to Star Wars and I know what your talking about, I just found wookipedia and my God there’s a lot of lore, some of it being very compelling.
Yeah. Simply adding a time-skip would have helped TLJ SO much, since it would give time for things that needed time to happen to actually happen. It would justify how The First Order took over the galaxy, rather than 1 system getting blown up and the entire galaxy surrenders, and it would give Rey time to self-train/train with Luke, which would go a long way to at least vaguely justifying the insane power level she's shown.
I am just goung to ignore those new movie and stick with good old EU. It was not without mistakes and weak storylines, but it has soul and passion in it.
I'm starting to look upon them more favourably. I couldn't get past Dark Empire where Luke turns to the Dark Side on a whim and then later simply decides he doesn't want to be dark anymore. It was about as bad as TLJ, but cost less to make.
@@RictusHolloweye Legends EU is worse than anything the canon will ever do, Palpatine is not in tryclop females, Han Solo should come from a no-one instead of royal lineage, Chewbacca is Han Solo's friend because he wants instead of an stupid life-debth, Luke never follows Palpatine, the Death Star was not stolen by everyone and their mom, only Maul revives (but is a poetically a living dead-man living on borrowed time all his second life).
@rosvel92 A better canon than both canon and legends will be the one which will unite us.
@@rosvel92, and yet Luke goes on to be a grand master. A husband to Mara Jade and Father to Ben Skywalker and does not die a coward. He was a coward in the Last Jedi never trained Rey and he failed at reviving the Jedi order.
@@matthewgaudet4064 Did you even attempted to watch the movie? Is clear Luke's aim was never to revive the Jedi Order, even if he told Kylo Ren he would, a gut feeling tells me Rey will call the Jedi quits. She is going to do A New Order, with new rules and new name, think how Jewish morphed to Christianism, but some Jedi will remain.
Also Luke was not a coward, he pulled the massive Jedi mind trick to protect people, despite knowing it would kill him. Also, Luke marrying and having a son never made sense in a family structure never made sense, specially after the prequels, and it clearly never was what Lucas hinted at. And the Legends Luke never died because the Legends stories turned Lucas mortal characters into superheroes, completely misunderstanding thr original work😣
Star Wars is Episode 1-6, the old EU material pre disney, the Clone Wars and Rebels. My fandom for those properties will never go away. However, the current version of SW isn't SW...it's something entirely new and foreign to me. I feel that there is a cultural war for the soul of what SW should be...and asking us to "get along with the other side" is simply giving in and letting them win and have their way with the franchise that we fell in love in the first place. Stand your ground and speak your mind. The internet can be used for good and or bad. Use it wisely.
I am with you. Shame they didn't put more care into this beloved franchise.
The only reason why I argue, is because I love Star Wars not just the movies, but the comics the games, the lore. can all the sjws or newbies say the same thing.
It's not the diversity that hurt it for me, it's the condescending, force-fed way they went about it. A giant virtue signal that was 100% forced and disingenuous. It felt like KK was man hating so much in how these movies were made. It wasn't about making a strong female character, it was about making a female character *BETTER* than the men and portraying all the men as either incompetent or evil. Name one time we saw a competent AND good natured male character in this movie....I'll wait....no forget the waiting, I'll just tell you it doesn't exist in these movies. Finn is a fumbling buffoon, Han is a dead beat dad, Luke is a quitter, Poe is a hot head that gets people killed for his "toxic masculinity", Snoke is an evil bastard, Kylo is a confused child who needs to be saved by a woman's love.
It's all man hating in every respect when you break the movies down and see them for what they really are. I've gone on other forums and YT videos and guess what? This movie pissed off men of ALL COLORS. I want to make it clear that Finn is hated by black Star Wars fans for chasing a white girl the whole time and having no other purpose until Rose comes along and mucks up his potential legacy as a self sacrificing guy. Compare Finn to the story of Mace Windu. Compare Rey to Leia or Rose to Padme. Padme put her responsibilities before anything else. Rose was willing to throw away everything, including what her sister died for just to get with a guy she was fondling over. Rey, breaking all the already broken "gender barriers" by being given powers not seen by anyone else in the movies. Not Yoda, Windu, or the *CHOSEN ONE* Anakin.
Then you have what could have been one of the coolest characters in the entire trilogy, Phasma. A woman who was domineering, played by a super talented actress many of us have come to know, love, and respect, from Game Of Thrones. Awesome looking armor, imposing, tall, awesome accent...all to be made into a trash compactor joke and then discarded as a simple stepping stone for our favorite buffoon, Finn. These movies had the talent but a few "artists" that were so insecure in their own political opinions that they felt the need to put art and creativity on the shelf to make glorified propaganda films. That is my beef with this whole trilogy. For the record my favorite Jedi of all time is Meetra Surik. THAT was a female Jedi I respected AND enjoyed playing as in KOTOR II. All these people saying we are woman haters are the people who don't know Star Wars beyond the movies. IMHO they are fans in name only, not wanting to take the time to know and understand the universe and lore of a franchise they supposedly "love". Stop wasting your money on phone apps and put them towards a Star Wars Audiobook or older game and get schooled on the finer points of this galaxy!
I HATE that JJ allowed Boyega to act like Kevin Hart, Chris Tucker from Rush Hour & Martin Lawrence all wrapped in a Star Wars movie. Why does Finn act and talk the way he does??? Why he is acting my guys from some of my favorite funny childhood black movies? It's galaxy far far away, they be speaking in a more regal manner. Not this modern day shit. F Disney
Very well said 👍👍
@@S2GUnit Agreed. All the more contemporary-sounding dialogue in these movies is another criticism that is NOT brought up by people often enough. It's yet another break in continuity/tone from the first 6 movies, which employed that stylized '30s/'40s movie speak. Lines like "Who talks first -- do I talk first or do you talk first?," "That's what I'm talkin' about!," and "Droid, please!" made me cringe far more than questionable prequel lines such as "There's always a bigger fish," "I'm haunted by the kiss you never should've given me," or "Hold me like you did by the lake on Naboo" ever did. : P
I liked Finn in TFA and was looking forward to him developing his force abilities. He clearly was force sensitive in TFA and even Kylo Ren sensed it. But in TLJ he was basically Jar Jar Binks..
Yup. On the other hand, "Into the Spider-Verse" was the perfect example of how to integrate diversity and realism into the story without it needing to be shoved down our throats. As fans we love a fantastic story, and if a diverse cast can be used as a vehicle for it then even better. But if the story is awful, then no amount of forced diversity can fix that.
It's been widely established that Star Wars was based on Joseph Campbell's work on comparative religion and world mythologies, New Lucasfilm should have brought in people who were passionate about Campbell's studies and mythology in general.
I can only like once... so....
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I remember watching a TV show that explained how the story in Star Wars (episodes 4-6) followed the "hero's journey" template. That was pretty interesting.
I think one big reason they didn't was that they think those common archetypes among multiple mythologies and religions are oppressive.
@@alienspacebat5218
Very true. When, like people such as Kathleen Kennedy, you see Western civilisation as an oppressive racist patriarchy, you cannot make good stories as all elements of a good story come from traditional cultural values and tropes.
@@alienspacebat5218 yes, and thats also why we don't have that many good stories these days.
Alright, Thor. I agree with you on one thing: We all love Star Wars. But as pointed out in some of the comments you read out: The movies done by Disney only have the Star Wars logo slapped on them. Storywise they are an utter disgrace - which led many a fan (myself included) to reject them entirely and thus do not acknowledge them as Star Wars. Are they entertaining on their own? Maybe to some, yes. But do they make worthwhile additions to Star Wars as a franchise? No. With the possible exception of Rogue One, they have treated the established franchises like crap, only trying to cash in on nostalgia to sell tickets for a less than mediocre product - and one fans struggle to reconcile with established lore (especially in case of the very extreme example that is TLJ).
I personally refer to the "Star Wars" movies done under Disney supervision as "Disney Wars" - and refuse to accept them as actual Star Wars so that i can still enjoy the previous six movies without having to remember the abominations that came afterwards. It may just be a mind-trick to myself, but it is working fine for me.
It just feels so artificial, like it wasn’t made with passion or care. Watch all the trilogies back to back and you will know the difference.
What’s my problem? The portrayal of Luke and Rey being too OP. Luke would never leave his friends like that and disappear waiting to die and Rey destroyed Kylo in the first movie so why should I be worried about her losing to Kylo in episode 9 if she’s already stronger
Luke doesn’t act like Luke. Thats my only problem with this movie. Other than Canto Bite and that cringy Rose Kiss.
TKinfinity
My biggest problem with TLJ too...even before I saw the movie, the trailer made me cringe since Luke was saying that the Jedi must end
That wasn’t a kiss. Rose sexually assaulted Finn.
Captain Rednek
That makes more sense. Finn didn’t seem to give consent. #FinnToo
Leia in space?
BALDORF BREAKDOWNS
She used Force-Pull, not something extraordinary.
It appears that the rift in the Star Wars fandom is a microcosm of the broader culture war.
You’re probably right, and so is this other commenter, but either way, I hate that every franchise I enjoy has to be destroyed as collateral in this culture war. I never paid any attention to politics whatsoever prior to noticing weird stuff happening with Star Wars, mostly the talk surrounding casting choices in the force awakens. I was also pissed that the clone wars got canceled and thought that “Disney better make it up to me with episode 7” and then at first I thought they kind of did, I was pretty much good with tfa, then the last Jedi left the taste of sh!t in my mouth and I saw it all for what it was. it was all agenda driven from the start and they never gave a crap about delivering a good story, that or the agenda was secondary and we would never have noticed if they hadn’t colossally failed with the rest of the handling of it. Either way, the result is the same.
Natasel I effing hope so, I’d rather see Star Wars die than be abused any further. Maybe I feel way more strongly about it than I should, but people trashing all the forms of escapism I love and invading them with politics actually makes me generally more unhappy.
I do think the political crap is secondary though, they really just screw things up in many ways, all the game companies I like have been ruining stuff too, cough* cough* fallout 76 and destiny 2... Star Wars seriously hurts the most though, the phantom menace was one of the first movies I ever watched as a kid and I loved the crap out of the originals too when I watched them obviously, even after Disney I liked everything up until the last Jedi, including the force awakens acknowledging its flaws, the last Jedi retroactively ruined the force awakens and the rest of the franchise beyond repair.
@Natasel _"Got to admire Ruin's skill though."_
I've acknowledged his raw destructive power in a comment or two elsewhere before. It's actually kind of impressive when you step back and take a wider look at everything. Much like a nuke..
When I watched the last jedi, I didn’t hate it nor did I completely love it, it was overall neutral. I only began to dislike when Lucasfilm decided to harass and belittle the fans for disagreeing with the direction of the new trilogy and their clear ignorance of valid criticism. As for the sjws agenda, that only became more apparent later on. Overall for me it was Lucasfilm’s behavior that made me dislike the new trilogy but I believe its a combination of all those points
100%
Your comment is one of few that makes the most sense of anyone's; however, it wasn't about you. Why would you take on someone else's problem and let it ruin your enjoyment of a film? Are you not emotionally stable enough to stand on your own two feet?
Sure, there are problems with the direction, but most people that point out other problems - other than SJW agenda being pushed outside the films don't understand the narrative of the films.
@@DaleESkywalker Plenty of people "understand" the films. Its not that complex or subtle. If anything, it kinda beats you oer the head with the points its trying to make. Can we PLEASE kill this narrative that if you didn't like it then you must not have understood it.
Dale Erdmann I think it’s just because people want to escape with movies especially when it’s a galaxy far far away.
I really disliked the movie (didn't think much of TFA either), but a trilogy can recover from bad movies (if 9 had been the bomb). The media and LFL going after fans afterwards just sealed the deal for me personally, my dollars have other places they can be spent.
The first film in the series was called a New Hope the last one should have been called Losing Hope because that's exactly what it's causing me and the majority of the fan base to do, and that's sad
Well accept for the fact, at the end of tlj, after losing their fleet, losing all their friends, having no allies coming to help them, even the death of Luke sky walker. Everyone was so happy, I’m not asking for a morbid ending, but everyone was just so hopeful, whose hopeful for the next movie!?
Yeah as my man Total War Destroyer said, it's 100% a combination of all those things but I think the most significant factor is Lucasfilm/Disney's and the Media's response to it all, denying any wrongdoing, throwing out insults and doubling down on their ways which aren't working making the situation go from bad to worse
Kelis 98 is being completely stupid. People do not believe that Rey isn't a 'traditional women'. People think she's a Marry Sue because she comes from no previously force sensitive family, yet she's able to defeat a SKYWAKLKER with no training although Kylo Ren has been trained by look for many years. That literally defines a Mary Sue! Give Ray a past that she doesn't know where she's been trained at the Jedi academy by Luke or some extremely powerful heritage (For example being a Palpatine, Kenobi or Skywalker, which would explain where her power comes from) then we'd understand! And how can Kelis 98 say there is no SJW agenda when there is a character *cough* Rose Tiko that is a female of Asian ethnicity that has no relevance in the film as her scenes serve no purpose to the end goal of the film. She's simply in there so that Disney look like a good company that isn't Racist/ Sexist. Disney need to understand that us fans aren't 'Racist' 'Sexist' or 'Man-babies' (I'm 16) and that if they give us well developed female characters that have a good backstory and serve a purpose to the plot (For example Princess Leia and Ahsoka Tano) that we will love those characters as much as we'd love any other male character that serves the plot of the movies.
I’m a newbie and I believed for a little while that perhaps, this was the way Star Wars just was. Oh boy was I wrong, not only have I gotten into legends, I have discovered a billion more interesting characters than the ones shown in the sequels, including a million female characters ( that Disney says never existed) and they are all compelling well written characters.
But they would also explain why she was able to fly the Millennium Falcon
Figure I should post my comment here too:
It kind of is all of the options. While the SJW agenda wasn't huge, it was there. That, coupled with terrible storytelling and pacing made them miss the mark. And said agenda lends itself towards attacking anyone who disagrees or even appears to disagree (e.g. fans who didn't like TLJ for literally any reason being labeled misogynists, bigots, and trolls).
And finally, the fans expectation was for TLJ to be a good movie. What they got was a steaming pile of bantha poodoo. So it did indeed not meet said expectation.
If I had to choose one? The one that hurt Star Wars the most was them attacking the fans.
Star wars could have survived a bad movie. It could survive one misguided attempt to inject politics into said bad movie. It obviously could survive missed expectations.
But when you go out of your way to berate, demoralize, and discredit your own fans REGARDLESS of your reasons, you lose any ability to win them back. I will NEVER watch another Star Wars movie. Because, to them, I will always be the sexist troll that didn't like their crappy poorly made "film". If that's how they view me, then why should I support them in any way ever again.
agreed. i refuse to watch any future movies.. for a franchise i have loved my entire life i am sad but i will not give them any more money
Standing ovation👏 I have to thank disney and lucasfilm, they starved me of good Star Wars media so much I discovered legends and now I’m a mega fan of actual great Star Wars stories and I have no need for their fanfiction.
I voted for #2 but I wish I had left a comment initially. While I can be made to see it is a combination of all 4, my reason for #2 is that a.) when you've grown up with the originals and b.) when you have read numerous novels (EU) and played the games, it is impossible not to develop a sense of "direction" of how the Star Wars universe should proceed. The truth is, you cannot command the force without learning how to use it; deciding if it benefits you solely or if what you learn should help benefit others. That has been at the VERY forefront since Luke on Tatooine with Obi-Wan. Even if you decide to go the route of the "Bendu", that is still a path that has relevance in Star Wars. STORY is why it is failing. Episode 7 was a remake and Episode 8 was beyond likeable. Even by just movie standards, those 2 movies do not stand up to their predecessors. And this is because it was about $MONEY. Like Marvel, make movies that have a story, congruence. Berating the actors and harping on this "SJW" stuff, is just not the real reasons. Not in total. Put people in charge of Disney's Star Wars that have KNOWLEDGE of the universe; and not just meeting the company's bottom line. Introduce Ashoka...OR...Rey should have had a double bladed light saber since she was proficient with the doubled sided staff. Consistency Disney. Stop "money grabbing" off the name and make a good story along with the movie. I could care less if they are female or a person of color.
I personally think it's a mix of differing factors, but it's mostly Disney having a misunderstanding of the property. From what I've seen since Disney bought the Star Wars property, they seem less interested in continuing the franchise in respect of what came before, and seem to be making Star Wars content for the sake of making money based on brand name recognition alone. This IS Disney we're talking about, a company people love to joke about for being utterly greedy and careless.
As for the alleged "SJW" stuff, it is indeed a factor, but it was barely there when The Force Awakens came out, with the only hint being the mention that it would have a "diverse" cast, which at the time wasn't a super novel thing like it is with most Hollywood-produced media nowadays and was shaken off. The SJW elements are a more recent addition starting with The Last Jedi, and while it's true that Rey had Mary Sue elements to her in The Force Awakens, that was just simply a result of bad writing rather than how it was in The Last Jedi when it was utterly blatant and painful to watch.
That's what happens when you write a directionless story simply because of brand recognition, you have so many different ideas that clash with each other that what you end up with an utter mess that almost nobody likes because they're just being made for money and as a desperate means of trying to stay relevant.
I think the real problem started with TFA....Disney was afraid to continue the story...which is what George Lucas would have done. Instead TFA was a reboot and they put everything back to what it was at the beginning of ANH basically telling us they were going to retell Star Wars their way...with a female hero and a move diversified cast....although Star Wars already had female hero and was diversified with all sorts of alien characters. Their response to the criticism TLJ received was more due to the realization that they totally screwed up their 4 billion dollar toy and are trying to say they didn't make a mistake...we are all mistaken. The problem with that is they don't get to control our minds and our minds told us that what they are making is not Star Wars....it's some gross, fan fiction that goes against everything we knew and loved about the original trilogy. It has also helped people who hated the prequels to realize that even though flawed they built on the Star Wars universe and compared to what we are seeing now they were works of art compared to Disney Star Wars. I am not excited about the way the franchise has been treated and Disney is trying to recreate excitement for something they killed. Destroying the past is going to bite them in the buttocks and probably leave an infection that will kill the franchise. You just don't destroy a fan base of millions around the world with crappy movies and expect to get a new fan base out of the deal...the new movies have no real appeal...they generate no excitement cause they are just based on nostalgia...TFA and than subversion of everything that came before...TLJ. Another note to Disney...do not try to remake characters from the OT or the prequel....unless you can use the actors that created the role....they got away with Obi Wan but it's very doubtful they can accomplish that feat again. There are a million stories they could have told...introduced new characters that they could have controlled and used for years but nope they didn't do that they just went about destroying the best franchise there was and it didn't take them long to do it.
Hi Thor. To be honest, it just doesn't have the spazz pass star wars movie does. And they don't put there love into it to make there movies, they just wanna make money and it ain't working so well.
Really? Because the spinoffs are liked as actually feeling like SW.
You're right, indeed.
Creativity sacreficed on the Altar of Profit
True it’s all about the money, but you can tell the difference of who made the new movies. The sequels were made by sjw NPCs that desired to spread their agenda and not take no for an answer. The spin offs while flawed do feel like a fan of the the originals, did try. The cartoon shows like clone wars are made by fans who are passionate about Star Wars, not just the movies but the lore and the incredible universe.
@@AndreNitroX TFA wasn't trying to bludgeon you with the agenda stuff.
@@achaudhari101correct it wasn't until tlj, that I went back and noticed
Man, I feel bad for Thor in this video. His heart sounds so heavy. He was just trying to interact with his audience via this poll, and people (from both sides of the fan schism) corrupted it, using it as a platform to unload their pent-up aggression.
I would just like to add that I listened to all the comments presented with an open mind and took many of the messages into consideration for what I think about this era of SW, and why. And, I thank Thor for making this video so I could do so.
Keep it up!
#MayTheForceBeWithYou
Everyone has their biases. My problem is the bad writing, tone, and rehashing old situations to capture nostalgia.
As Mark Hamill has said, we were hornswaggled.
Episode IX isn't going to heal anything. The concerns with sequel Star Wars go deeper than rage over Johnson's work. There was an executive decision made inside Disney before production started on The Force Awakens about what Star Wars IS - the decision was that Star Wars is the Rebels versus the Empire.
Ignoring that the Empire was crushed in Return of the Jedi and that there was 30 years worth of Expanded Universe material exploring the New Republic, sequel Star Wars is just an Original Trilogy reboot. The names are changed but the roles are identical. The New Empire (aka the First Order) is supposed to be a terrorist organization, but it gets its Death Star planet blowed up in TFA and comes back stronger than ever only in-universe months later? The New Republic gets kicked back to Rebels by blowing up just six planets in a galaxy? These are mostly JJ and Kennedy or even Iger decisions, not Johnson decisions.
The story for Star Wars isn't progressing to new things, its regressing to old safe standbys.
And the opportunities lost have been significant. A New Republic storyline would have "reunited the gang" - Chancellor Organa-Solo, General Solo and Grandmaster Skywalker - in the first movie. Now with Han killed off and Carrie actually dead, that can never happen.
_"It's easier to hold on to existing fans than to attract new ones."_ -Matt Roszak, developer of the Epic Battle Fantasy series
and Disney and Lucasfim showed how easy it is to lose said fans
A very wise man.
@@trinalgalaxy5943 And if you're losing this many of your existing fans, you're not likely to attract as many new ones.
@@thorskywalker Are you at all interested in JRPGs? Because if so, you may want to check out Epic Battle Fantasy.
What happened to let Rian get away with that appalling script that agenda was nothing more than an excuse to excuse a script lacking in world building or anything that could support its status as a sequel.
It's as if Rian upon learning he wouldn't be returning for episode 9 deliberately took steps to make it worse with the SJW agenda a convenient lie to hide behind.
The cast deserved better.
alot the gen x boys who grew up with ot and luke as their hero are the main demographic who voted for trump in 2016 i think johnson and kennedy destroyed the luke character and didnt give us luke as a master jedi as pay back for trump
@@bb-gc2tx I doubt that excuse even occurred to them, it takes genuine lack of talent to screw up THAT badly.
Honestly episode 9 needs to fail just so Disney can learn. I have no investment in the ST so I want to watch it burn.
@Charr Aznable
What about Discovery and the upcoming Picard?
Great video! It was interesting seeing the varied opinions regarding the topic. Star Wars is in a bad place. I know I’m not happy with it.
Look at the picture Mark Hamill just tweeted of him and Harrison hugging.
Its epic.
I would say that many decisions put the movies on the edge. Then the SJW material set a bomb. Honestly its more how that whole group has acted rather than the actual material in the movie. If that had been it, people would have noticed, but most would have moved on with their day. Instead, Disney blewup that bomb by lumping everyone with criticism into the category of disliking said material. At that point human nature took over, and the claim became true.
This horrible habit of human nature has been seen so often, one might think we would learn from it and avoid it better, but instead, we get idiots like RJ that attack those that try to improve the overall just because it was his work and he apparently knew best.
The Force Awakens was self indulgent fan-fiction with a terribly un-creative plot that showed a love of the ideas of the original but an absence of consistency with the original saga. and a failure to appreciate the development of narrative that the original films put in place. It was disjointed and awkward and misplaced.
The Last Jedi was pure self indulgent drivel that showed a complete failure to operate within the very framework of the saga that created the need for the movie in the first place. As per red letter media it was expectation defying in the way that if you paid someone to mow your lawn but they instead salted the earth and burned the grass. It was a bad film put together by people who don't know how to operate within an existing creative framework. It showed no conception of development of story lines and no real insight into the original films.
Rogue One was fine, should have made more efforts to be in line with the originals but was still fine and enjoyable.
Solo was ok but similarly out of touch with the original saga.
Personally I am off the train and have no real excitement towards Episode 9, they fell off the narrative and are somehow not telling the same story and it was the original story I was watching to see develop.
I am in the same place with Marvel, once the next Avengers is done I am getting off the train. Disney is taking itself far too seriously and needs to tell good stories rather than this amateur hour social engineering by out of touch people who really have no idea what world the rest of us live in.
The people who wrote The Force Awakens. It's a bad Star Wars film that doesn't understand the universe. Bad film writing.
This began with the Force Awakens no doubt about it. The Last Jedi is only the natural consequence of TFA at an ideological level which is the entire point of the Sequel trilogy. Just as Myth was the point of the OT trilogy and whatever was the point of the Prequels.
As much as I dislike the Force Awakens, I can’t really fault JJ Abrams (or whoever wrote the story) to copy and paste ANH when writing TFA. Before that movie came out, there was still a lot of distaste for the prequel trilogy; so much so that Lucasfilm probably feared that if they did anything anything new and bold, they might a lot of backlash as well. Because of that, I partially blame the prequel haters/OT purists.
Force Awakens was more lazy than bad. Last Jedi was more bad than lazy. The Force Awakens just copied the OT, but with a less compelling character who was pretty much flawless. The Last Jedi tried to do something unique, but so completely missed the mark that it could become a case study in how NOT to handle an established franchise. As for me, I am done with Star Wars. I didn't see Solo, I won't see episode 9, and I doubt that I would be missing much.
I was bored when I watched The Force Awakens in the theater. It was a competent film and it wowed people with nostalgia, but it did nothing new. This trilogy needed a much better starting point.
As much as i enjoyed The Force Awakens, I,m not going to deny its obvious problems. But i cant help but think that if TFA was a slap in the face, The Last Jedi was a kick in the balls.
Kelis 98 7:08 is naive af, "because women have larger roles," its not that they have larger roles (silly suggestion because Leia, Mon Mothma, Padme, Ashoka etc.......), its because in those roles, the characters are there mainly to berate men. The politics of the OT wasn't in your face and the same message could be transferred to any time in history. These films will not age well because, like with every other wave of feminism that came AFTER the right to vote issue (a valid problem at the time), this wave will be beaten because it is build on a foundation of lies and it will be more obvious, years to come, that there was an underlying agenda within the writing. Nobody cares if the characters are female or not, as long as they struggle through the journey that the story presents. Rey isn't struggling. She is met with challenges but they don't seem to faze her at all. And that is the problem.
Honestly, the agenda sucks so much. The OT works well with politics involved because it tells a fluent story which is mostly plot driven, much like the Mandalorian. To say there is no agenda is incredibly stupid, and you have to completely dismiss the facts or arguments that contradict what you want to believe.
Overall though, I enjoy each movie until I watch a review. The reviews point out blatant flaws which drive us insane. But thats me.
I think the real problem is that the script was written by people who don't understand star wars. They don't understand the progression of the characters or that fans watch star wars to escape reality. The cause of this is partially the agenda. Kennedy wanted people who agreed with her views, thus the writer's knowledge and experience with star wars is more limited. Thus, we get a bad story. Thats just stupid.
IMO, the biggest problem is that Disney decided to sweep aside lots of perfectly viable source material, and went YOLO instead. And now that their plan (or rather, the lack thereof) is backfiring, they're blaming it on the fan base. That is absolutely asinine!
The EU was unfilmable.
Your videos are truly amazing. Well made, rational, respectful. I always look forward to watching to your videos.
I like him as the mediator, he’s not manipulative like other Star Wars UA-cam channels, this guy cares.
OMG There were 66 comments when I got here!!!! EXECUTE ORDER 66!!!!
But you made it 67... :(
@@theoperumal5174 Yeah... Sorry...
You know an order 66 might be a solution to the disney star wars problem
I have only ever wanted to walk out of two movies in my life and the last jedi was one of them. I have not seen every movie ever made but being a star wars fan that kinda made me sad. I still think disney is to blame with how they handled creating the movies and then how they dealt with the backlash from fans. Just seems like all they saw were dollar signs and did not care what was made as long as it was fast enough to pump out every year. I don't know Lucas personally but he seemed to at least have his heart in the creation of his movies, where disney obviously does not. I just hope future things change this attitude with new people on new projects. I will always be a star wars fan even if I do not enjoy current projects.
Sequel trillogy feels empty. Not enough lore. And what lore there is just doesn't interest me. Never been interested in the rebels (resistance) and the ships etc I'm more into the Force and the Jedi
I'm all about the Sith. These pretenders irritate me.
Pretenders?
@@achaudhari101 Snoke and Kylo are as my father likes to say, "Wishabees"
There wasn’t much lore for the original trilogy either until the prequels came out. There was only those Han and Lando books and a hint about Obi-Wan and Vader’s past. That’s it.
I'm so with you my brother!
As a woman, I've wanted, but not demanded, strong and relevant female characters in movies. I was always bummed that Leia never got a chance to be a badass with a saber. All of the hype from TLJ and her badassery made me think FINALLY!!!! But no, we instead got space Mary Poppins - wth was that? What a disservice 7 & 8 were to her character.
Rey: I thought certainly they'd have an opportunity to have a powerful and skilled female Jedi with a good story line. They missed the mark though, suddenly giving her powers with no training. They could've explained it in so many ways - one of which she could've had flashbacks of training as a child when she touched the lightsaber, explaining why she can use the force and possibly lead to her discovering why she was abandoned on Jakku. I suppose they could still tie up those loose ends but they should've started that path in episode 7.
Phasma should've been an amazing antagonist but they butchered her story. I was very disappointed with her brief fight. They had great moments, like when Finn smacked her in the helmet. You see a bit of her face and her eye. This humanizes her, making you see that a real person is in that armor. Finn paused - good! But, they dropped the ball when instead of continuing the fight, with either Phasma dying at Finn's hands or escaping to fight another day, she dies because the ledge that she's on falls off.
Rose had some great moments. I love how they made her as a somewhat timid but loyal alliance fighter who found her strength and bravery in the middle of chaos. But, I think they missed the mark a bit with her as well. She was brave and loyal to the cause - they were building her towards that - but in the end, she puts her loyalty aside to save her friend. I am conflicted; it reminds me of Luke leaving Dagobah during his training to save his friends. I get that but at the same time I always come back to the thought of did he make things worse by abandoning his training instead of completing it and then going after the Empire? Or, did this strengthen him in his training eventually because that experience never let him forget who he was fighting for and why fighting against evil was so important?
Regardless, I truly hope that episode 9 is epically great and washes some of the bad taste that 7 & 8 left for so many fans.
Disney ruined Star Wars by not having a clear plan for the sequels.
The key to understanding all of this is psychology. I think, generally speaking, the fanbase can be divided into two groups. Those who are able to separate Disney Star Wars from their own personal identity, and those who can't.
Group 1 can see Star Wars more objectively because...even though they may love it, they can see and admit when it's not being handled well. They can see when the quality of the writing, characters, and story telling starts to diminish.
Group 2 on the other hand, because they have made "being a die hard Star Wars fan" a huge part of their personal identity, they are far less likely to see Star Wars objectively, because internally, they feel like that questions or undermines their identity as a person. Because of this, they feel they must love Star Wars, no matter how bad the quality of a particular Star Wars film.
I think it’s a lot of things. I don’t have a problem with the whole “feminist” narrative other than the fact that they’re clearly using it to absolve themselves of criticism, as evident by how they attack critics.
I think the main problem is that the movies are just kind of, meh. They’re like Tofu, flavorless unless you add something to it. Like most people like Rogue One because of K2-SO and Vader in the hallway. Take those away and it’s just mediocre at best.
I also hate the use of directors that are overrated and don’t really care much about Star Wars, like JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson. Though as much as i disliked TLJ, i have to give Rian props for at least trying to be original. It makes me think how if you watch Episode 1, everything’s different, new ships, droids instead of stormtroopers, yet it was still unmistakably Star Wars. Now look at TFA, we have Stormtroopers with a new apple look, but i’ve known a ton of people who can’t tell the difference (we like to razz people over it at /r/empiredidnothingwrong), it has TIE fighters, X-wings, pizza-shaped Star Destroyers, the Falcon. Add that to the copypasted plot and it just reeks of laziness.
This is Darth Bullsith of the Galactic Notification Empire! All wings, report in!
Bullsith, standing by!
Blue 63 standing by
ConstipationKing standing by
Red Five standing by!
Brown Leader standing by!
Green 8 standing by.
1.) They didn't appreciate the love and attention put into star wars before they took over the brand.
2.) They let their Lucasfilm administrators push politics in both official social media account as well as how the stories are written.
3.) They made no attempt to make a cohesive product that makes sense and adds to the universe. Rogue one being the exception.
4.) JJ Abraham and Rian Johnson were given way too much power and freedom. They needed some guidance from Lucas or someone who cares about the overall starwars continuity.
The strong female characters are only a problem because they are in your face and blatant. In TFA it was so bad that it is clear they gutted Finn's character just to try and make Rey look even more amazing. When your agenda is blatant and over the top that the plot and other characters suffer from it, you have a problem. It wasn't that they had this awesome plot in mind and that they would have a strong female character involved in it. They started from "we want a strong female character" and the plot was built up around it. And the fact that it was just a rehash of previous films made it all the worse.
About your 3rd point, a big problem with the sequels is that despite having the word 'episode' in the titles, the Star Wars films are NOT episodic but SERIALIZED. They should have plotted out the whole trilogy before shooting a single frame.
I also agree with your 4th point.
joelt2002+ totally agree with you, well said. With the exception of Rogue One, all the people with real input who made episodes 7 and 8 don't seem to really love and understand and respect Star Wars, and they didn't plan out anything. The writing sucks, it's cut and paste from the OT, and the new characters who are meant to replace our favorites from the OT have no compelling or relateable, believable growth or arc to them. What a mess.
@@dougstephens1979 Yeah I understand that some people don't care for Rogue One. But as a movie it worked within the confines of the continuity as well as added value to it. Both the Rebellion and Empire were given a lot more depth than they had previously. And it was done so in a way to not take away anything from the OT or even the prequels.
We were giving culture, religion, gritty action, star ship action, and even a taste of force use with Darth Vader. People complain that the 5+ characters that drove the plot didn't have character arcs and weren't fleshed out... As if that could be done in a single movie. Casian and Jyn both had arcs as did the Rebellion and Empire. The supporting characters were some what interesting and did their jobs of supporting the leads. Guy with repeater was dumb and should have been left out.
Finn could have been a interesting character. Rey could have been interesting. I thought a Darth Revan plot line for her would have been an awesome steal (her memory being wiped and she was the leader of the Knights of Ren, not Kylo). The complete butchering of Han and Luke was unforgivable. Poe didn't seem all that interesting. But yes they were unrelatable because they lacked human qualities we could relate to. Finn somewhat had it, until he started butchering storm troopers later... Poe was given some character in TLJ but it was completely fabricated and did not jive with his character from TFA at all.
It's heart breaking as there clearly was no one that loved star wars anywhere in the chain of development for these movies. JJ claimed he loved star wars, and maybe he did. He's also a garbage writer who's plots are always jumbled messes. He captures emotion and intensity pretty good as a director, but over all plot nearly always suffers when he's at the helm.
Those comments you read were amazing! I couldn't have said any of that any better!! I pray 9 is good. I can't wait for the days that we can all rave about the franchise again!
This is where the fun begins.
The biggest problem for me is the story. It feels so disconnected from episode 6 that it doesn't even feel like a sequel really, or events that would follow logically from episode 6. Like, episode 6 ends happily with a sense of hope for the future, and now all of a sudden there's this random 1st order thing that seems to have just popped up out of nowhere. All of the progress made in episodes 4-6 is thrown away. What we needed was a story that follows logically from episode 6, that doesn't try to rehash the old story in a new way (the rebels vs the 1st order in the place of the rebels vs the empire), but instead shows us a completely new chapter for the Jedi. There would obviously still need to be conflict, but conflict that actually makes sense and doesn't completely ruin established character development (Luke) or rehash old conflicts we've already seen (the empire/1st order vs the rebels).
The way Luke Skywalker was written in Last Jedi was the last straw for me. That was when the Saga went off the rails. Luke died on some backwater planet, a coward who never even faced Ben Solo and the First Order.
The fact he didn’t even show up to help was the worst, he died of a heart attack, couldn’t even go out like a man.
Episode 6 would be considered SJW propaganda? What? How?
Everyone was skilled. Everyone was self sacrificing. No one was better than anyone else (except maybe Luke, but only because it was his story). No one was portrayed as being an idiot.
None of those things are true about the sequel trilogy.
Lucas has stated in several interviews that the Battle of Endor is a Vietnam War metaphor.
@@ryanclark1124 And? The Empire as a whole has strong Nazi vibes, but that doesn't make it an SJW agenda. It has a purpose in the story, and the characters respond to it as characters of that universe, not as vessels of present-day female empowerment or whatever.
@@ryanclark1124, does that make it SJW propaganda? Is it possible to disagree with an unnecessary and stupid war that our leaders failed to fight properly, and not be an SJW? I bet there are a lot of Vietnam Vets who disagree with that war. Are they SJW's?
Side note: To any Vet, from any war, including this one. Thank you so much for your service! I am eternally grateful.
Not to mention, remember what Leia was wearing? Not exactly typical sjw attire...
@@Kahless_the_Unforgettable
You make the mistake of thinking I'm arguing with you. Just pointing out a fact. But the questions you raise are really crucial. What is art, what is propaganda, and are they ever the same thing? I don't think there are easy answers.
Ok I had never heard of a SJW until a month after I saw the last Jedi (I don't follow politics that closely) and when I was watched it I thought wow there are a lot of Democrat ideas in here casino planet where the rich supply weapons to both sides says Capitalism is bad. They add a space horse track to say animal cruelty (I love and are sympathetic to animals but it didn't belong here maybe a filler episode of clone wars or rebels) and maybe gambling itself is evil. Rey needs no training to be more powerful than Jedi who have studied for decades or even centuries. And Holdo berates Poe treating their best pilot who just yesterday destroyed Starkiller Base and saved all their lives like a worthless "hot shot male". These are not only bad story ideas but are clearly political in nature to someone like me who pays little attention to politics and it contributed a lot to making episode 8 terrible!
Also whoever thinks Return of the Jedi is filled with some kind of political propaganda is crazy it's the timeless story of good versus evil, tyranny versus freedom and the true power of family ties and the human spirit! I've never met anyone in real life who's offended by or cringes because of politics at Episode 6 and I can't believe many if any people like that truly exist!!!
There probably is politics in the OT, but it was subtle and didn't drive the plot, unlike what we get with the sequels.
This is why I respect both you and your channel. You read through the comments with little to no bias and gave a positive message at the end. We definitely arrived at the same end result, trying to ease tension in the divide that has formed. Much love Thor! 🙏🙏
Biggest point always missed: The creators blamed the fans for being sexist, while the best rated Star Wars filmof this generation was Rogue One, also with a female lead character. This just proofs that fans aren’t sexist, everyone claiming it is wrong and insulting. No wonder the fans got pissed and this whole topic caused an explosion of anger and rage.
No one takes Rogue One as an example...
Like so they see
I've loved star wars ever sinse I was a kid, and my aunt rented them for mu cousin and I to watch back in the early 90s. As such, what I am about to say hurts more me greatly. In order to save the fandom and legacy of Star Wars, I feel it would be best to let it die.
If we only watch the movies that we have in our collections, and stop paying for merchandise, eventually new films will stop being made, and over time we can try to let the drama of the sequel trilogy fade into our distant memories.
You and HelloGreedo are my favorite star wars youtubers
Hey Thor, I love the channel, and wanted to thank you for being a messenger for both sides of the argument. Anyway, Disney has one shot of saving the community, have episode 9 be great-perfect, so that the fans have something to come together on.After a calming of both sides with a great movie, their plan should be getting people like Dave Filoni who care about Star Wars and are creative enough not to repeat the originals or do the complete opposite, but do their own story. Then after Disney has a staff of nerds who care about star wars, they should give the fans what they want: Kenobi, Maul, Palpatine, Vader, and other movies about the characters we love, but only if the story is good.
Jesus fucking Christ that was a long thing, sorry mate.
Fans, I take it the Prequels have been destroyed then. I must say your here sooner than expected.
In the name of the Star Wars Fandom your arrest Disney.
Are you threatening me toxic man babies.
The box office will decide your fate.
I am the box office.
Not Yet.
It’s treason then.
[a great battle ensures before Disney is cornered]
The oppression of the mouse shall never return. You are under arrest, Mickey.
No no you will pay!!
[Lucasfilm arrives after Fandom strips Disney of its money]
Lucasfilm, I told you the fans we’re trying to take over.
Don’t listen to him Lucasfilm. I’m going to end this once and for all.
You can’t he must stand before the box office.
This man has control of the box office and the media, he’s to dangerous to own Star Wars
"We have such a solid and common ground between us..."
Yeah, the high ground.
I am not sure that the films have an extreme or unusual left wing agenda. This is Hollywood, it's all left wing and politically correct. The issue is that they made bad movies, and then used politics to deflect criticisms and attack the fans. Princess Leia was a strong woman who was a balanced character aswell. She wasn't a Mary Sue, she wasn't afraid to take action and be in charge and this was in the 70s times that were radically different in terms gender relations compared to today. Rey's character is poorly written.
I blame J.J Abrams, Ryan Johnson, and KK. I think the fans would certainly have accepted another Leia type character, or a Mary Jane Skywalker, another super strong female character. The issue is that in this current climate the SJW agenda demands a perfect female character, hence we got Rey, a perfect self insert character. Hence the old characters were changed and discarded to make way for a new PC present.
So much drama! Hahahaha. I love it! My wife just called me a manbaby for watching this whole video. On a serious note though its Disney's Opinions and the Fan's Opinions for causing all this trouble. The Force Awaken's goal was to ignite the love of Star Wars by giving us something similar (too similar), The Last Jedi tried to give us something divisive. Id say both movies are great for doing what they both set out to do. I would like them to tone it all down a bit though and make them more for the fans.
Why I think Disney green lit the Sequels as they were. Disney wanted to ensure it had some audience in the form of those concerned about social justice, since traditional fans were more of a unpredictable element, a gamble of sorts.
The SJW agenda/flavoured plots were green lit because most of Hollywood doesn't truly understand what makes a great story. So Disney wasn't confident enough it could tell a story that appeal to fans and maybe secure some new ones. Hollywood has mastered many things about what makes successful movies, like VFX and stunts and production values, composing, editing, and marketing but what exactly makes a great story still baffles them. Why so many reboots or sequels or adaptions rather than truly new IP.
Those blaming manbabies are blind, either by choice or inability to look beyond their own point of view, to the facts that don't support their theories.
The Last Jedi didn't advance women in Sci fi by any way that remarkable. In fact in that aspect TLJ finally caught up to Sci Fi the 1970's.
Happy to cite examples if needed.
If anything Disney set SW women back by eliminating the EU and its multitude of powerful women written into the Eu by making it nothing more than Legends.
Disney wanted to broaden its appeal and there was no solid evidence at the time that writing stories that highlighted Social Justice themes/goals more would isolate fans.
The issue is the domino effect. It started with LucasFilm ditching the EU and making their own canon. That forsook and pissed off the hardcore fans.
Then there was TFA which frustrated many more for many reasons, it being a carbon copy of ANH being the most popular reason.
Then came EA's handling of the Star Wars games. First with Battlefront then with cancelling both RPG games in production. And then of course them ording a cease and desist on the KOTOR mod that fans have been pining over for years.
And of course, LucasFilm itself and how it handled Star Wars outside the movies, books Etc. The whole "Force is Female" thing among others.
Then came TLJ which caused the internet to explode. With its politics getting smashed in your face, its degrading of the male charactors, the breaking of the preestablished lore, the handling of Leia and chewie, and of course, what they did to Luke.
Then, finally, as fans went nuts, LucasFilm bit back. Or rather, didn't stop or punish their employees from biting back.
Disney/LucasFilm has been mishandling Star Wars from the beginning, hemorrhaging fans along the way, and its snowballed into what its become today. This has been a gradual thing that everyone's ignored for the most part. TLJ merely was the spark that made it public and, dare I say it, popular, to hate on what's been done. I mean, how many of you knew that the EU fans were so pissed at losing their lore that they bought a billboard in LA with the #GiveUsLegends massage? All they wanted was the old EU to be canon alongside the new lore so that it could continue. Something like what Marvel or DC have. They even put the billboard right outside LucasFilm so to force Kathleen to see it everyday when she went to work.
After long thoughts and debate I have finally figured out what happened and why the movie is such trash. It’s the fact that Disney completely disregarded the previous movies and destroyed the foundation the whole series was built on. It broke the physics and fundamentals of what Star Wars was, and that is why it’s so bad. The hyperdrive scene? The yoga HITTING LUKE with his cane??? Yoda blowing shit up AS A GHOST? It’s just bad writing and creates SO MANY plot holes
It’s a new breed of animal, they were just too lazy to change the name.
What I see, is the prevailing attitudes outside StarWars, in greater western civilization, found their way IN. I see this as profoundly sad Thor Skywalker, not because change is inevitable...but because some of what fuels this division is a pernicious type of change. By scratching the surface, and digging alittle deeper, I see a cultural shift occuring. Traditional/centrist, (older generations), Vs postmodernist, far left (particularly college kids taking humanitys). With regular, grounded people getting caught in the middle. I heard one comment about "just making a StarWars movie for StarWars fan's, and people will come". I agree with that! Poor Luke didn't need to be pushed aside ☹️, or Han Solo killed for a lame story arc.
Hoo boy, there are some surface of the sun hottakes in this video. I mean, I'm not even going to argue that the comments that attack people for voting "agenda" are necessarily completely wrong, but so many of them are just so...nasty. At the end of the day, political correctness is a cancer that detracts from the creative process, where the goal becomes "being diverse" and "inclusive" instead of "making a good story." And the simple observation that some fifteen thousand people have made is that Disney Star Wars has largely abandoned the goal of making good stories in favor of being inclusive for its own sake. A fringe minority would be complaining about the movies if they had the exact same cast, but had good stories instead. And I'm quite tired of jerkoffs telling me, a black man, that I'm somehow a monster for thinking these things.
I just want good Star Wars. Nothing more, nothing less.
The other week I saw a video purporting to highlight tweets by Rian Johnson against SW fans. Didn't watch that waste of time, but I did check the description and follow a few links they cite ... and when you look at the actual tweets in question, it's very clear that in some cases, the *fan shot first.*
It's oh so simple.
Have actual love for the product your creating.
Yes! It just feels so artificial, like it wasn’t made with passion or care. Watch all the trilogies back to back and you will know the difference.
Toxic fans: I have brought Peace, Freedom, and Justice to my view of the new Star Wars movies!
Regular Fans: TFs, my Allegiance is to the Star Wars fandom, to diverse opinions!
TFs: *iF YouR NOt wITh Me, THeN yOuR mY EneMY!*
RFs: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
There is no possibility for healing. What's done is done. You can't have one side feel (regardless of how true it is) as if they're being unjustly called bigots, racist, manbabies, incels, etc. and expect a "good movie", i.e., more agreeable movie, to heal that rift. Personally, I don't take anything personally said on the internet. My dislike for Disney Star Wars is a dislike for the films themselves, starting with TFA. I will never walk into another movie theather and pay to watch a "Star Wars" film.
You read a comment which said more or less, that from the Prequels to TLJ, "it's all Star Wars to me". And that the best you can hope for, that the franchise can produce enough spectacle for that quality of moviegoer who has no discernable taste between any movie with the name "Star Wars" in it to be sufficient to bring in enough profit to make the next movie. That the franchise becomes about X-Wings, AT-AT's, Star Destroyers, and the Force and not about characters, so that Disney can plug in whomever they want in these ships and force characters and push out spectacle after spectacle.
It's incredible to see how many rebooted franchises are out there, some with such little popular recognition you wonder why they even bother use the original series. These rebooted franchises are virtually unrecognizable from their origins, completely altered histories, characters, timelines, etc. but they have developed peculiar fanbases who evidently eat it up, and that's all Disney hopes to accomplish with Star Wars. If JJ in episode 9 can make enough people cheer with Lens Flars, X-Wings, Tie Fighters, and a light saber duel, then he has done his job.
Things change, whether it be people, industries, marketplaces, etc. etc. It's up to each of us to decide to accept, change with it, or abandon it.
Well this is very funny that i just realized this conflict in SW that we’re experiencing is exactly the same way our present politics in America is going and it has bleed over into our escapisms its truly sad it seems like some of us in society NOT ALL but some have this wacky notion that if you don’t agree with my views you are racist sexist etc thus why i think all the SW drama exists in most aspects but thats my opinion
*They want to make star wars stuff*
Fans: Yes let's do it!!
*But they made immediate plans to make drastic changes to met asap release dates to pump out alot of movies for the sake of money by disregarding everything except the movies and the clone wars show have already shown by now*
Fans: you son of a bitc-
I’m hopeful that the fandom can unify and heal, but I think the problem that many of the poll results has highlighted is that Star Wars is now connected to a number of political issues, it is political now. And so the division and vitriol in the fandom is a microcosm of the division and hate we have been seeing in politics lately. It’s weird that Star Wars fans can hate each other so much for holding opposing views, but I think it’s the same thing we see in politics when people say that all conservatives are racists or that all liberals don’t care about the quality of country and just want to push an SJW agenda into everything. Neither side is willing to listen and I think that’s a big part of the problem in both politics and the fandom. This unfortunately means that we will either have to detach Star Wars from politics or strive to find healing in the political sphere too. And both of these solutions are extremely difficult.
My problem with the new trilogy has nothing to do with the sjws politics
It's has with the story
They just modified the story from a New Hope and Empire Strikes Back and give us TFA and TLJ
nothing knew just fuking copy paste
agreed - nothing new in them other than destroying the characters we love
Because they didn't have much left to work with after all the damage Lucas did with the Prequels.
@@ShadowSonic2 so how that justify the copy paste ?
and what about the extended universe ?
Yeah, I think Disney missed the mark with the movie, and lack of continuity with existing characters. Luke was not Luke, When did Leia get force powers and learn to use them, etc. And the Haldo maneuver breaks every single death-star and death-planet battle by making them a waste of life. A single droid in an X-wing with a hyperdrive could have ended it before it was a problem that needed pilots to risk there lives in a battle. It doesn't matter how complex or expensive a Hyperdrive is, Every single X-wing lost had a Hyperdrive unit in it, thus one vs hundreds nullifies that argument against Hyper-kinetic-missileing a death star with a single X-wing.
The media belittlement and social media outlash at fans that didn't like the movie, was unfortunate at best. It didn't help matters at all, and made some things worse.
My big issue was Rian Johnson ( I know, beating a dead horse at this point) he is so numb to criticism and thats what bugs me the most is that he wont admit that he at least did something wrong. And yes a comparison between George and Rian is also overdone but I at least want to provide an example. Look at Jar Jar Binks, lets be honest people were not fond of so him at first and as a result hes barely in ep 2 and 3. Rian just wont admit theres flaws in work. And im not saying every movie is perfect if you get real nit-picky you rip apart some really solid stories but for me personally my disconnect comes from RJ and TLJ.
I feel as though whenever Disney tries to take a stride forward the get moved two steps back. My problem with the Star Wars movies post Force Awakens was that alot of scenes, locations dialogue, and general set/window dressing felt out of place.
Certain things don't feel like they belong or make any sort of microcosm of sense even when taking what concepts like Expanded Universe brought into play out of the equation.
It feels as though there's a missing piece to the machine and what doesn't help is the poorly integrated new supplementary material.
They can't decide whether to completely change everything or to try and poorly integrate old ideas back in.
They need to make a choice and stick with it rather then throw a million things at a wall to see what sticks then insult fans who don't like what they're doing.
It would if they undone many thing in TLJ in ep9 specially jake skywalker
Good comments, good video.
I missed the vote, but I will leave my view here.
I'd be one of those 4 %. As a fan of the Star Wars Legends, EU, I highly value creativity and well written characters. That is none existing in the sequels. Quick profit mattered the most, and a good story took a backseat to the esthetics. Plot wholes, incompetant villains, op heroes (Mary Sue), no world building, none sensical decisions are the result of that.
Glad I have the EU...!
As someone who likes the sequel trilogy thus far (flaws and all) my biggest problem with the movies is repetition of Empire vs. Rebels and redressing it as First Order vs. Resistance like its a completely different thing.
A NEW ERA should have been introduced. Something the Star Trek (pre STD) and Stargate franchises realized within the narrative of their storytelling.
1) The First Order should have never been created because its a redundant copy of a failed regime.
2) The Resistance should've existed because Leia and Rebels would have strengthen the Galactic Republic.
3)The Jedi should have came back with less flaws as to not be dismantled by a Sith's evil scheming again. Like allowing marriages, not insisting on detachment from relationships, not being so politically influenced etc...
I can go on beyond this points but they are moment influencing element of the world building in the EU.
My point is that Lucasfilm/Disney and even EA are too afraid invent new things. It's not impossible the whole Old Republic Era is proof of invented something new. But because they all want a certain amount of money to be made they are too afraid to gamble on the obvious desires of the fanbase.
Like I've said before if they focused on making an excellent movie with great writing and such,that happens to be a star wars movie or in the star wars universe, then no one would care or lash out in the way they have for the sequels. By trying to satisfy multiple people they stretch themselves to thin and end up with sub par content....make a great movie and it won't matter that the star wars name is attached to it, it'll bring new fans and satisfy the old ones...not to mention an objectively good movie will make tons of money so no need to worry about that either
For those who say there is no sjw agenda in SW, I present to you exhibit A: Cant9 Bight
I like how their own agenda is flawed. The characters take the time to free animals that damage property but will only be recaptured. And they leave the slave kids without so much as lifting a finger to help them.
My reason is that there was no plan before making this "trilogy".
My other main problem was that Last Jedi was not a sequel, it was a part 2 of Force Awakens. So we should have 2 more movies made since Disney only cares about money, with the 2 other movies those could help fix the movie.
Episode 9 this year could be the real episode 8 and in 3 years from now we get the final episode and can help save star wars. But it's too late to save it, thanks to Rian Johnson thinking that Last Jedi was the final Star Wars movie
Disney did not develop the plot line first, then they did a wishy-washi approach how to develop the movies, brilliant idea when you are producing a trilogy and RJ with his subpar execution killed the franchise. The SJW thingy did never bother me that much, maybe Iam to old for that but what really pissed me off where poorly written characters and plotholes as big as Vredefort Dome. TLJ is a 101 case how not to make a movie. Its as if the lousy script and story telling where done on purpose, I know it was done on purpose but who in their right mind would think that that was a good ... NVM, SW is dead!
8:20 I agree with casually: A youtube Channel so heavily. The fans have caused all of this to happen and now they're mad. "We" are responsible for what is happening now.
Do or Do not. This is no try.
I recently watched "The Witness" miniseries on Amazon. It stars Kate Beckinsale. She plays an amazing, well-developed character. One with which I could empathize and appreciate her strengths. The exact opposite of Rey. How anyone can think she isn't a Mary Sue is beyond me. No character development other than she's an orphan. No training other than some practice alone with a lightsaber that makes her look like she'd be a joke in combat.
This is also a huge problem with Disney's desire to tell every minute of the main characters' stories. If TLJ had taken place several years later, with some flashbacks to Rey's training from Luke, her skills would've been much more believable. Finn would've had time to recover from his entire back being gashed open.
The SJW agenda is a symptom. The problem is these directors have no passion or imagination for Star Wars.
2nd, aahhhhhh sigh
About how to heal the fanbase I think its a two part issue that both can be done separately if people wants to:
-First part is the leadership in Disney and LF who must start to take us fans and our opinion towards theyre movies and tv series more series. They do not have to accept everything we say cause thats more or less impossible but they have to ACCEPT it. Meaning they cant let theyre staff slashing those haters in media and calling us names etc. They also need a solid plan going forward since they have showed us that you cant really make good movie trilogies by feelings and by giving "carte del blance" to the directors. Planing is key here.
-Second part is we as a fan group must try to accept that we have different opinions in all thing we love but still a very common ground in our love for Star Wars. We have to accept opinions we does not like as long as they are respectful towards other fans and not goes as far as hating or bigoting actors and other creative staff for the work they are not in charge of.
And as a last thing we as movie and tv series watchers MUST learn how to separate actors from theyre parts and so on. Its silly that media can get to blow up a very noise but small part of the fanbase who can not do that basic separation of character from actor at all. If you can not do that, seriously, go and read a comic book or something. Johan.
The people who didnt see an sjw agenda should leave the internet. You're a laughing stock...!!
They have to discredit or ignore any proof or arguments that show the agenda. Now, everyone ignores stuff they don't agree with, but to then insult a community of people who understand the argument better is insane.
"...throw my two cents in." GoOd. TwIcEtHeLiNcOlN, dOuBlEtHeFrEeDoM.