Theory I’ve been having is that Marika’s goal that sets the game in motion is to die because godhood is a prison. She does a lot of specific things that pave the way for her/radagons/elden beasts death which wasn’t possible before she did it. Creating the tarnished for one, removing the rune of death so that the tarnished couldn’t truly die. & then she shattered the elden ring so that her demigod offsprings would take the shards, so that the tarnished could kill them off & collect them & become powerful enough to kill a god. She created Melina, who just so happens to have the power to grant the strength of runes & burn the erdtree, & Melina goes after the tarnished (coincidence?). All of marikas actions make it possible for a champion to gain enough power to slay her. I think she ultimately just wanted release from her godhood
Yes! My main theory for interpreting her actions is that Marika wants to escape being a god. And it's also very likely she changed her methods for escape since in the 1.00 version, Miquella was effectively confirmed as Marika's successor. I've also been looking for the moment when Marika's motives may have changed...
@@garrulousgoldmask Marika ultimately wanting to just die has always been my read as well. At times I've taken it as such a given that I'm surprised when I see people who disagree. Hewg's whole thing seemed the clearest indication to me since my first playthrough. Melina being Marika's daughter also seemed to line up nicely with that (recently confirmed with the DLC). Seems like she knew she had to line a lot of things up just right before shattering the ER, because she would be screwed for good from the moment she actually shattered it. We'll never know all the specifics, but there are so many points where "Marika was clearly setting X up" or "Marika seems to have been involved in Y somehow" that it seems hard to deny that the major events pre-shattering all set up the groundwork for a tarnished to eventually come out her out of her misery.
I have also been having that theory but there is just one question that I can't answer. Why didn't just Marika take Malekith to a secluded area and fight him to the death over there? She does have the ability to teleport so Malekith wont be able to restrain her. This means that the fight would have two outcomes, either Marika dies (Mission Accomplished) or Malekith dies she gets the rune of death and kills herself (Mission Accomplished). Every time I come up with an answer I immediately contradict it and it just makes my brain hurt lol.
@@zen-t3w Radagon may be the answer to this. If he's able to take full control, Marika would likely consider that a fate worse than death. Marika needed someone to kill both her and Radagon, and Maliketh probably wouldn't have done that.
The scar seal implies that it is a duty from which there is no release. And marikas is in the haligtree. Miquellas haligtree being left unfinished is said to make Marika sorrowful. The erdtree recycles spirits allowing rebirth. I think The Haligtree was to rebirth Marika free of the elden beast and the elden rings duties put up upon her. I think the tarnished and everything else was plan b and a fail safe. But if she could've rebirthed to regain freedom I've no doubt she'd still try to rule
What if the betrayal is because Marika, after being a succesful jar experiment, was meant to be just the vessel for another Lord or God, but in last moment she flipped the script, killed the God or and became both God and vessel herself? Or something like that. The three part lord-vessel-God is confusing to me but the essence is that she hijacked the ritual for her benefit.
Ooh, that's very possible! That type of subterfuge could explain how she got access to the Gate of Divinity and Enir-Ilim. Though with the mountain of bodies, I had assumed she just took what she wanted through brute force.
@@garrulousgoldmask I think those mountains of bodies are the Gate of Divinity after it was freshly constructed rather than the result of a massacre Marika committed. It's also possible that might just be the gate when it's "fueled up", so to speak, since the gate after Miquella uses it seems surprisingly dried out with lots of dust in the air. As for where Miquella might have gotten enough blood to "refuel" the gate, we know from the Lord of Blood's Exultation Talisman that the Bloody Fingers have been bringing the blood of Tarnished that they kill to Miquella's Mohgwyn cocoon.
I agree that’s why we see all the bodies freshly dead right at the divine gate. I believe she somehow tricked the gloam eyed queen, or they were apart of a ritual at the divine gate. Once everyone was gathered at the gate she had maliketh kill them all and took the godhood for herself.
I'm not convinced that the Sacred Rite Scroll even describes what Marika did. In-game, Miquella uses that rite to return Radahn's soul to a new body. The only relation to Marika might be how the Lord is supposed to usher in the God's return, which could be how Marika/Miquella become a God, but Marika had neither a vessel nor a Lord to usher her into becoming a God. This being Radagon doesn't make much sense, when it essentially ignores the existence of Godfrey.
@@RevanX77 It doesn't ignore Godfrey at all, it just says that chronologically Radagon came first. We still don't really understand the nature of their duality, whether they were once separate people who came together, or any real details of how Godhood works. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that he could work as a lord - especially since he literally ended up playing the role of one after Godfrey was cast out
I think the "original sin" referred to is not so much the desire to be a god in general, but to sever life from death. In Genesis after all the sin of Adam is the fruit of the tree which gives knowledge of the distinction between Good and Evil, paralleled in Elden Ring (in my opinion) by the severing of the Lands Between from the Land of Shadow (the land of Life and the land of Death respectively). I think in the context of the game, Miquella is presented as the redeemer or Christ figure who will undo the original sin, by embracing both together ("whether graceful or malign"). This is why Miquella's Great Rune says he divested himself of everything "all in an effort to bury the original sin. To embrace the whole of it, and be reborn as a new god." This is also why the localisers decided to translate that word as "original sin" in this context, because it relates to Miquella's embrace of both the graceful and the malign (embracing "the whole of it," a phrase also connected to Ranni), that were separated by Marika's "sin." But as Emir says, there is no hope for redemption, as he just ends up finding his own way of repeating the mistakes of his mother.
So I agree with a lot of this! I definitely think one of Marika's sins was the severing of life from death. But for me, I saw that as Marika plucking away the Rune of Death, which happened only after she defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and after her ascent to godhood. And while Adam and Eve were barred from the Tree of Life by flaming cherubims (Sidenote: That would go hard af as a FromSoft boss fight), Marika did have her own Tree of Life with the Erdtree, at least briefly in the Age of Plenty. (The Erdtree even had a Rune of Life in the 1.0 version.) I also like to think that the inability to die that people are currently cursed with in the Lands Between is a pale imitation of the true eternal life attained by faith in Christ. I also completely agree that Miquella perceives himself as a redemptive Christ figure. (Him sucking out the poison from Freyja's Scarlet Rot reminded me so much of medieval accounts of Christian saints.) But as I talked about in my video on his Great Rune, his desire to go beyond causality goes even farther and further back than Marika's original sin, since he's trying to overcome one of the 2 laws of reality, as outlined by the Golden Order Fundamentalists.
@@garrulousgoldmask Personally, I think the trailer is hinting at the fact that Marika's ascension to godhood is contemporary with the separation of Life from Death when it shows the sky being divided between the gold of the interior gate and the dusk-coloured sky outside. Although this is pure speculation, and there is reason to think otherwise, it just seems fitting to me that this would be when the Lands Between were first separated from the Shadow Lands, so the latter would serve as the place where Death would "wash up" and be sequestered. And perhaps this is the founding act of the Golden Order, what unites Gold and Order, the ordering of the world into a place of life and a place of death. It's funny that in the end Miquella seems to only further involve himself in the karmic cycle of causality the more he tries to break out of it, possibly echoing his mother.
I like the theory but one thing I don't understand. If the original sin is her separating life from death then how would Miquella accepting everyone good or evil "bury the original sin" aka separating life from death
I don't think Marika is removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring in the DLC's Story Trailer, so that's unlikely to be Marika's "original sin." Additionally, there's no trace of the Gloam-Eyed Queen or her servants anywhere in the Land of Shadow, making it further unlikely that they relate to the "original sin" mentioned by Messmer's Remembrance. Miquella's embracing also doesn't relate to life and death.
Good catch on Marika being the vessel, couldn't really understand how her (being the deity) fit with Godfrey, Serosh and Elden Beast. Marika being the vessel (flesh that melds harmoniously) with the Elden Beast (later the Elden Ring) and Godfrey/Radagon and us being the Lord makes a lot more sense. I think Godfrey defeating Serosh and having him on his back mirrors Ornis defeating the Divine bird and using his wings. This method of gaining power is the Hornsent's Divine invocation whereas Marika went a step beyond of getting the most powerful beast (Elden beast) + having a Lord. Thanks to Gameplus channel releasing a video about Godfrey recently. I still wonder where the Snake fits in beyond the Abyssal snake within Mesmer considering Eve was seduced by a snake.
Oh that's an interesting parallel between Serosh and Ornis! And of course Miquella riding Radahn is a clear visual callback to Serosh on top of Radahn. I also really like the comparison quite a few folks made between the horned lions we see all throughout Belurat and Enir-Ilim and Radahn inside Mohg being a horned lion as well... One of my upcoming videos will cover the Abyssal Serpent!
Ooh, I hadn't thought of the boss weapons working that way before, but that tracks! That also reminded me of the Smithing Talismans which mentions how ancient blacksmiths had the power to "imbue weapons with souls."
huh. that's probably how messmerflame ended up in the fire knights weapons then, and might be the basis for most forms of weapon enchanting in general, given the prevelance of heraldic seals in weapon arts.
Eiglay has to fit into the messmer equation The abyssal serpent is fated to devour all in its flames endless hunger *TOGETHAAAA WE WILL DEVOUR THE GODS* vibes?
I'd like to share also some of interesting connections between Marika, Radagon, Elden Beast and the Erdtree to the Christian Theology that I noticed: - Marika and Radagon are the one body in similar way how Eve and Adam was once a one body. Also it's said that "for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh". In Elden Ring, the "one flesh" is very literal. - Eve was created out of Adam's ribs. In reverse, Elden Beast makes Radagon into a sword made out of ribs. - Marika was once from flesh and blood (judging from cinematic trailer, her portraits and her depiction in intro, she had once fleshy pink skin, also she was able to give birth to fleshy humans) but in all this years of godhood she turned into something that reminds a stone statue (and Radagon is immune to bleeding). It looks like a reverse of the myth of creation of human, where Adam was created from dust of the earth and then he received the breath of life. - "knowing good and evil" is sometimes interpreted in theology as "the power to decide what's good and what's evil". This power to decide is the Elden Ring, which is an equivalent of Logos in Elden Ring. It governs the rules of the world, but it can be edited. And the power to edit the rules of the world and decide what's good and evil is God's power and no one else. This is why the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden for humans. And I think that the Elden Ring is very similar to this fruit. By the way this interpretation of the Original Sin reminds me of Dark Souls. Gwyn's First Sin was denying the rules of the world. Instead of letting the fire fade so the Age of Dark could naturally come, Gwyn let himself on fire, destroying the order of the world. In short, he himself decided how world is supposed to work. "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form.These are the roots of our world." as Aldia said. But while in Dark Souls it was quite obvious what went wrong from the beginning, in Elden Ring the Original Sin is more open for speculation. But the Causality thing could be a great clue (however plucking the Destined Death out of Order is also something that denies the natural order of the world, it's strange for me that only Melina wants the true Death to be restored). - there was also a second sacred tree in Eden, the Tree of Life. Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from this tree, and probably it was the thing that granted them immortality for the time they were in the paradise. The Erdtree is very similar to that tree, since once it could bless people with grace, and even resurrect them. - when Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, it was sealed and guarded by an angel (seraph if I remember well) with burning sword. If the Erdtree is the closest thing to Eden (since it's the thing where the souls go), then Morgott would be it's guardian. He's demigod (and angels are beings that between God and humans) and has a flaming sword in second phase. - Marika, Radagon and Elden Beast are the Trinity. But instead the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we have the Father, the Mother and the Beast. And the Beast is referenced in Book of Revelation alongside with the Dragon. In Book of Reveation the Beasts and the Dragon aren't the same beings (Dragon is giving power to the Beasts) but I think in Elden Ring Elden Beast and Dragon were merged into one entity - I judge it from Elden Beast's internal name "nebuladragon" and it's draconic look. Marika is Christ-like figure, but it's possible that's she's in fact closer to the Antichrist. For example in Book of Revelation it's noted that during end-times people were marked with "the Mark of the Beast" and no one could buy or sell if they didn't had this mark. Grace of Gold is what's reminds me of this. The Nomadic Merchants had troubles with trading and even living and they couldn't settle because they lacked the Grace of Gold and that's why Kale welcomes the Tarnished as his kin. Sorry for the super long comment. I just realy wanted to share this. I also wanted to say that your video was amazing, and I love how much research you did in philosophy and religions, I can't wait for more.
Thank you so much--and those are all fantastic points! I really like the idea of Morgott being a Cherubim who guards the Tree of Life with a flaming sword. (And from his brother, we do know that Omens can have wings too!) There are a ton of parallels between Gwyn and Marika and the fact that both committed an original/first sin, really seals the deal there. And while I have explored the nature of the Apocalypse in Gnostic Christianity with the Frenzied Flame, your comment makes me think I should explore the orthodox (lower case o) version as well! Thanks again for watching and for taking the time to leave such a detailed comment! I love reading comments like this that also grapple with all the intricate themes and symbolism.
14:05 One possible line of events i came up with: - The hornsent come into contact with the fingers, but are afraid of their appeareance and unable to discern their words nor can they learn to do so. - A grief-stricken shaman girl, fleeing from her Hornsent overlods, wanders into one of the finger ruins. - The Fingers see this as an oportunity to finally get someone to actually listen to them, so they protect her and eventually are able to communicate. - The Fingers pass on their words and teach her incantations. - The Hornsent would not even try to listen to the monstrous fingers, so it's easier to send the girl, now fully grown, spreading their words, and gaining trust by wielding the finger's powers. - The Fingers become so influential that their words are followed as law, giving them access to Enir-Ilim - The Divine Gateway is built and Marika ascends to godhood.
I had a similar timeline in my head, though again this is pure speculation. - a young Marika flees her village into the Finger Ruins, where she meets the Two Fingers. At some point, she is given Malekith, though whether he is created ex nihilo or a Farum Azula beast is modified I cannot say. - the Fingers guide Marika on a path to godhood. Along the way, she meets and falls in love with a barbarian warrior named Hourah Loux. The two have a child together who shares Marika's golden hair, and Hourah Loux's fellow warriors become the first of Marika's elite knights. - Marika, fearing that her young son will be persecuted by her many enemies, accelerates along the path laid out by the Fingers. Through trickery, she enters Enir Illim and uses the Gate of Divinity to ascend to godhood. Hourah Loux becomes Godfrey. I'm assuming he was present for the ascension and out of frame in the trailer, since the Secret Rite Scroll did confirm that a God is defined by having a Lord as consort. - Marika flees Enir Illim, her goals there accomplished, and plants the Erdtree in the city that will eventually become Leyndell, perhaps atop existing roots. The War against the Fire Giants soon begins. - Two things happen, I'm unsure of the order. First, during the war, blood from the fire giants and Fell God melds with Marika's flesh, which alongside the zeal she presently has for her Order, results in the creation of an alternate persona, Radagon. Second, the Hornsent learn en masse of Marika's actions and their holy women pronounce a curse on her offspring. - At some point, Morgott and Mohg are born. Messmer and Melina are also born, though their births are different from Miquella and Malenia's. The game text doesn't acknowledge Messmer as a direct sibling of anyone other than Melina, nor is Radagon officially acknowledged as Messmer's father despite it being seemingly obvious. If I had to guess, I'd say Radagon had not yet fully emerged from Marika, and so Messmer and Melina would have two fathers, but that is definitely in the speculation territory. - Radagon becomes a separate entity from Marika and gains his own form, which he uses to wage the Liurnian Wars. - Marika sends Messmer to wage genocide on the Hornsent. - Godfrey is banished. As per the Law of Regression, Radagon returns to Marika and eventually fuses with her. And the rest is history.
I think that Marika fled the hornsent's lands at a young age, and managed to reach an Eternal City for refuge, only to be mistreated by her fellow Numen and made into a slave soldier, a Sword of Night, just like Jolan and Anna were implied to be from a Nox civilization. This would explain how Marika could have known Alecto and the Black Knife Assassins, as well as how Marika could have developed her fighting skills, since she's the most likely person to have taught Melina how to fight like a Black Knife Assassin. Statues in the Lands Between also depict Marika with a spear, which might indicate that she also trained Messmer. While Marika's Hammer is probably her own tool, the Nox notably fight with one-handed hammers of a similar size and proportion, so she might have honed her skills with her hammer during her time with the Nox as well. At some point, Marika may have been discovered to be an Empyrean by the Nox, and she thus learned of that status and its significance there, as well as gaining a better awareness of whatever the Nox seemed to be doing with their "Lord of Night" experiments, spells, and rituals. Ultimately, I feel that Marika escaped and abandoned the Nox, causing the loyal slaves like Alecto to consider this a betrayal, setting the stage for their motive in participating in the Night of the Black Knives. Now a skilled warrior with some knowledge of what being an Empyrean meant, Marika may have sought to contact the Fingers to be chosen as a god, if she wasn't just seeking Great Runes on her own and the Two Fingers noticed her. From there, Marika might have feigned loyalty to the hornsent civilization, which likely expected her to be a groveling slave per their apparent caste system, so as to access the Gate of Divinity, or she infiltrated Enir-Ilim in something of a parallel to Ranni and the assassins' actions on the Night of the Black Knives. Marika might have invented Radagon to be her Elden Lord at this time, thus making him actually the first Elden Lord of what would become the Golden Order. Alternatively, Marika already met Hoarah Loux, and probably convinced this "a crown is warranted with strength" warrior to work with or for her by kicking his ass. Heck, maybe she killed him and his remains are in that bag, and Marika was basically showing that she indeed had an Elden Lord to revive (in his own body) so she could become a god. The vessel might not necessarily have to be a different body than the Elden Lord's own, Miquella just didn't want to scour the Wailing Dunes for all the debris of what once were Radahn's feet and most of his lower legs, not to mention how Alexander can potentially take some of his flesh and it eventually ends up with Jar-Bairn. Anyway, that's my idea of what Marika's timeline might be like. Sorry if this became rambling.
@@Nemo12417 Only have a question for clarity on one of the early details... If Horah Loux was the vessel for Marika's "return of a God, ushered in', would that mean Serosh was the Lord's soul that now inhabits the newly created "Godfrey"? The parallels with the visuals of Miquellla's return as an ushered in God are there, but they aren't exact - nor is the naming convention we see with Mogh's newly Rhadahn inhabited vessel being, basically, Rhadahn. But that doesn't mean all those details HAVE to line up though, and I definitely like the idea of Horah Loux being present, but not shown in the DLC trailer... Kinda like how the Remembrance of a God and Lord only shows Miquella, but we have to assume the scene/memory is occurring from Rhadahn's POV because of the use of the word "and" in the Remembrance.
@@TheHi-NoteFunClub-BeatsByMike Personally, I suspect the part about the vessel was more for Miquella specifically, since his desired consort was dead and the corpse was internally destroyed by Scarlet Rot, so he needed a new body for Radahn's soul. This wouldn't have applied to Godfrey, who was alive and kicking. Incidentally, the "god requires a lord" is recurring in Elden Ring. The two demigods who are identified as "Lord" in their boss fights both sought to marry a god (DLC reveal about Mohg being brainwashed aside). Rykkard feeding himself to the serpent is what led to the birth of the man serpent race, and is also reminiscent of the Sunken Valley women in Sekiro feeding themselves to the white serpent in a "marriage" ritual.
It took me a few playthroughs to realize that when Ymir said that Miquella shouldn't have felt bad, the blame lay squarely with the mother, he wasn't talking about Marika. Of course, given that he wants to give birth to creepy severed hands, I'm not entirely sure if he can be trusted. One of the first things I noted about his area was that the Cathedral is of what Tarnished Archaeologist has dubbed the Saint and Tree stratum. His general feeling seems to be that this civilization was a direct precursor to Marika's empire which fragmented, and the section in the Leyndell area became the basis for Marika's conquests. But I am pretty sure that the Cathedral was built LONG after Metyr landed. She was the first falling star to hit the Lands Between, after all, and regardless of how you feel about TA's Saint and Tree theory, the Cathedral looks too modern to be built shortly after Metyr arrived.
I read Ymir's lines as a double entendre about both Marika and Metyr! And I definitely agree that the Cathedral looks way too modern and it had to have been built more recently. (The same for Manus Celes, I guess?)
@@garrulousgoldmask I can't prove this, but I read one comment somewhere after the DLC came out speculating that Manus Celeste may have been built for a different purpose than what it currently served and may have even had a different name, but was destroyed when Ranni's Two Fingers crashed into it from above and created the hole in the floor you find it in. This commenter speculated that Metyr may have sent the Two Fingers to do this, since the Greater Will had long since lost contact.
We going full christian with this one bois. But in all seriousness i couldn't wrap my head around how Marika ascend with the gate and what she did but this puts it more clearer even if it's speculation
It's important to note that while the Elden Beast was invoked, it was already in the lands between. The Elden Ring has been the anchor of cosmic forces and life in the Lands between since the age of dragons
I think the biggest indication Marika standing at the Divinity Gates is also Radagon is not her reddish (supposedly) hair (I think that's just the lighting), but her wearing their famous black dress exactly like Radagon does, bare-chested. So two people ascended at once? Marika became a wessel to her lord (Radagon)?
This makes more sense than his theory. He says Marika was supposed to be the vessel for the God but that's not how the ritual works. The vessel is used by the Lord.
Great point! I also mentioned this in another comment but another point in favor of Radagon as the lord is the fact that he was a seamster and may have been able to weave together the golden threads we see in the trailer to make the Rune of Life.
Marika when you meet her in the tree has the dress below her chest. I think the statues and cinematic is just censored so blackguard doesn't see marikas tits.
@@nostalji93 I think this is explained by Metyr being the influence/driving force of Marika performing the ritual at the gate AND how it's performed. Essentially, Metyr hooked her by telling her " do this and YOU become a God", with Marika not only believing, but continuing to believe she actually is a God until she plumbs the depths of "her" order. The shattering of the ring coming about because she discovered the truth of the sacred rite scroll, saw her status of God being in doubt, with Radagon doubling down on fundamentalism and wanting to keep things as they are. All that considered, Marika's words to him take on the meaning: Think you're a God - like I did - tell you what... Let's find out, like for real, together (then, for some reason, her voice starts broadcasting Indiana Jones as she finishes with) I've got nothing else better to do. 🙂
The words "Vessel of the Vision" are used for Marika, but a similar phrase is also used for Miquella in Vers 1.00, calling him the "scion of the Vision" and speaking of how Radagon supported Miquella and his Vision, giving to him Loretta. Would that Vision have been in conflict with Marika's Vision in the original lore? Probably. My crazy theory is that in vers 1.0 Miquella's Vision would have entailed Chitin and making an age of Insectoid obedience. This would have explained his insect wings, the insect eggs in the Haligtree, and his sister, Malenia. Miquella would have likely been the stereotypical ant-queen, enforcing an age of peace via stolen hearts, or, as it was, individual willpower. Contrast the Chitin with the Hornsent, the latter being Keratin.
Personally, I think there was a plan for Miquella to succeed Marika as god but something went awry. (Godwyn getting ganked in the Night of the Black Knives makes the most sense to me.) And that Bugquella theory actually carries a lot of weight! (Which I suppose is fitting considering how strong ants are.) We also have the Kindred of Rot finding solace in the Haligtree (and taking human forms, a la Moore and Gowry) as well as those ants being mind controlled by the Nox, with particle effects similar to Miquella's Bewitching and Charming Branches. (And the French translation of Hornsent was incredibly clever!)
@@garrulousgoldmask there is also a lot of supporting evidence for the Chitin vs Keratin dynamic in the dlc. For example, the Man-Flies are Hornsent that have been transformed to possess Chitin carapaces and hair (like flies) and we see that they have lost their horns (keratin). Moreover, only birds, beasts, and humanoids can grow horns, whereas insects, crabs, lobsters, and scorpions do not grow horns. Then we also have Metyr, mother of Fingers, and the fingernail sorceries (fingernails being made of keratin) and we have Lamprey, whose teeth are made of keratin in real life. Hooves, horns, hair, scales, feathers, talons, etc., are all made of keratin. Antlers, in the real world, are made of calcium, whereas in ER they say that the Ancestral buds are "antler-like horns", the distinction allowing the antlers to be made of keratin rather than calcium. I really do believe that Keratin and Chitin are important to ER.
@@garrulousgoldmask there is more that bears upon it, too. For instance, the Godskin skin people, and Keratin keeps skin healthy, moist, and youthful. Keratin also matters a lot to hair health and warbraids are important in ER. My theory is that the Crucible of the Erdtree is magical keratin. When a seed blooms it feeds on keratin as it grows. This also explains why Miquella's discarded Great Rune creates a Sunflower: sunflower seeds are rich in keratin. The Crucible must have been Keratin because wings, hooves, horns, scales, etc, are made of Keratin, and Crucible Knots grew on the SKIN of the Fire Giants (cutaneous horns being made of keratin, too). Additionally, Chitin composes not only carapaces and insect hair, but FUNGUS, linking it to the Scarlet Rot (mushrooms) and Deathblight (Blight being a fungus, but also it explains why flies grow out of Deathblight). The Spirit Ashes of the Kindred of Rot even states explicitly thst they are "chitinous".
@@garrulousgoldmask my other reply was auto-removed. Just wanted to say that Chitin composes insects, crustaceans, and fungus (mushrooms, blight) and that Miquella's discarded rune spawned a Sunflower, their seeds being rich in Keratin.
Fascinating! You seem very well-studied in Christian doctrine. A few interesting parallels to Christian symbolism: You pointed out that the three parties involved in the Secret Rite Scroll are the Vessel (Marika/Mohg), a Lord (Radagon?/Radahn), and a God (Elden Beast/Miquella). I'm not sure if it's meant to parallel the triune nature of God, in the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But man is, in a way, also a three-fold creature at his best: Man, Woman, and God, in relationship with each other. Just more speculation, though. But the requirement of having three parties was interesting. Another interesting part about Miquella's journey is the shedding of his flesh in the pursuit of atonement: it's Christ-like in that it's supposed to be self-sacrificial (yet simultaneously self-exulting, as you point out); and yet, the eschewing of the body is also a little gnostic, and maybe even Buddhist (not well-read enough to know). "Everything mundane is bad" is a surprisingly common thought for spiritual schools. I believe Christianity does not support that thought, and it's interesting that perhaps the shedding of his own "humanity" symbolized by his flesh in the pursuit of god-hood led to Miquella becoming less and less Kindly, and more and more Sinister. By the end of the journey, he had become more tyrannical than the Order he sought to distance himself from; an ironic, and yet not unexpected fate, if the history of our own world is anything to go by. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but heaven is full of good works", or something like that. Miquella intended the best; but his actions belie his intent. Instead of covering the sins of the people, he added to it. Poetic, and quite an eloquent story on how thoroughly gargantuan the task of redemption is; how impossibly treacherous; how easy to think we are doing good, that we might even be able to atone, and then to fall so catastrophically short.
Definitely gonna be looking forward to that video on Marika’s ‘betrayal’! You can certainly make the argument that the betrayal came with Messmer genociding the Hornsent, although would that really be a ‘betrayal’ if the Hornsent never wanted the Shamans to obtain Godhood? Or, given how in the Japanese text, ‘Miko’ is used instead of Shaman, and with the Hornsent carrying cursed blood (based on how most turn into Man-Flies and were freed from their curses, plus the Blood Fiends), as well as the spiritual practices of Miko/Shrine Maidens, could the betrayal be that the Hornsent were actually trying to use the Shamans to create a pure Miko/Vessel that would cure them of their cursed heritage, but instead of delivering them their salvation, Marika instead turned against them? It would make a bit more sense as a betrayal if the Hornsent were hoping Marika would be their savior/Christ figure, but instead she condemned them. After all, the Shamans were stuffed into jars to become ‘saints’. Why would the Hornsent do this if they weren’t seeking salvation of some kind? Also, what are your thoughts on the mysterious body Marika pulls the golden threads from in the story trailer? Was it snake-skin or Godskin? Was that figure a snake or woman? Do you think it might have been the Gloam-Eyed Queen (given the weird instance of night/dusk in Enir-Ilim even though it is never nighttime in-game)? Excellent video!
Thank you so much! For Messmer being the betrayal, I think it's fascinating that there was a period after Marika became a god and the Hornsent weren't purged yet. Marika defeated the Fire Giants, who threatened the Erdtree, but also worshipped the fell god, who "haunted the sagas of the Hornsent," according to the Furnace Visage. So by defeating one of the most reviled enemies for the Hornsent, I could easily see them thinking Marika was their Savior. Only for Messmer and his Furnace Golems to show up, adorned with depictions of the fell god... Re: the shamans, Mirko has the best take I've seen! medium.com/@Mirko_LaMi/shadow-of-the-erdtree-lost-in-translation-eng-0e7701104786 And after I did a collab with TimDiggity, I do think Marika is reaching into a snake eye in the story trailer. As for the gold thread, I think Radagon was necessary to weave it together to make the Rune of Life, since he has a Golden Needle that make alterations for the Demigods' attire. So I see that as another point to Radagon being the lord in the vessel/lord/god set-up.
@@garrulousgoldmaskOh! I completely forgot about the Fire Giants and how the Hornsent feared them. With how Messmer’s Furnace Golems carry a Fire Giant head, this helps make Messmer’s assault as a betrayal make much more sense! Excellent observation! And wow! I’m so glad you shared that article, because it was truly amazing and well-written! I only wish I discovered this sooner!
@@agopessimist1335 The Dancing Lion is weak against fire, and fire seems a logical weakness for any nature themed creatures, which the Hornsent as worshippers of the Crucible definitely were.
Metyr has wrinkled flesh and an eye. It also is the only other thing directly connected to the greater will besides the elden beast. The beast requires a vessel. I think she took the beast from the eye of metyr
The hornsent have statues of marika with her head cut. That means that before the betrayal they worshiped her. Makes sense that she became a god first, and then betrayed them with Messmers war
I think that the elden beast needs to be talked about further. The fact that 'god slain' only appears upon its death almost makes me assume that yes marika is just a vessel and that she was never actually a god, her sin taking on the title of god despite being just a vessel. The scene at the gates of divinity is calling the elden beast as the rite mentions and the trailer depicts.
Not merely taking the title of god, but probably attempting to subdue the elden beast and imprison it. The elden ring is housed in Radagons body and looks like it has caused the damage, burning him from inside out with its power. The Erdtree may not be locking everyone else out as much as locking the elden beast in as Marikas attempt to capture its power. Marika’s shattering might have let in all of the outer gods accidentally because she opened it the “door” to capture one and steal its power.
So, I'm cautious about saying this, as it might set off a flame war. Feel free to delete this comment if people aren't being polite. Anyways, plenty of people have pointed out the parallels between Miquella and Jesus, but I'd note that rather than portray Miquella as a failed Jesus, Elden Ring seems to reject the idea altogether. It's no secret that Miyazaki likes Berserk, which is heavily inspired by Nietzche (the "God is dead" guy), and both Ranni and Melina give Nietzche inspired speeches at various points in the game. And Miquella's methods seem parallel to the Christian concept of being born again in Jesus. The Tarnished ultimately rejects Miquella. Not because he is incapable of fulfilling his dream (though you could interpret it that way) but because the game rejects the philosophy that peace should be brought about by having one's being repurposed to a higher power. As Ansbach said, "make a world for men, not gods". It's also worth noting that in some denominations of Christianity, Miquella's methods aren't anathema to the theology. According to the Lutheran and Calvinist concepts of Grace, humans are so utterly depraved that they inherently will not embrace Christianity, and so the Holy Spirit has to override their wills (no, consent is not needed, as depraved humans never WOULD consent). The "I" in the Calvinist acronym TULIP stands for "Irresistible Grace".
That's an interesting detail about concepts of the Holy Spirit. Adding to the Jesus discussion, Christ is notably both god and man, but Miquella seems to be actively discarding everything that makes him who he is, arguably destroying what makes him "man", in his quest to become a god. In that regard, Miquella could be seen as a failed Jesus due to casting off such a key detail rather than having both.
What an accurate definition of Marika as a character, a vicious, treacherous scumbag who didn't even feel any normal maternal feelings towards her own children...
Thank you for pointing out the difference in interpretations amongst denominations. As a Christian, my biggest pet peeve is when a contentious or not-universally accepted doctrine gets treated like it’s an objective fact about Christianity. It’s not usually a big deal, but it can cause some issues when the community pulls from very different schools of thought
Just found your channel, I really enjoyed the video! Messmer and Marika's relationship has always intrigued me. Like we can't forget he did commit brutal crusades, just because his devotion to his mother was so strong. But I love the hints of him just doing it for Marika, and really personally caring about it. When you enter his fight, he seems like a guy who's told to get off his break, as a tarnished walked in and he has duty to fulfill. Until he realizes that his mother did betray him long ago, having such a lightless creature be groomed to become Elden Lord.
I've had a very similar idea for quite a while now mentioned in a few of my videos. I believe Marika was both vessel and God due to housing the Elden Ring within her. It works well with your suggestion here that the Elden Beast is the God, as housing it would ascend her to godhood.
Great minds think alike! Marika being a vessel who becomes a god just makes so much sense to me, especially since it would reinforce the themes of identity and a fractured self (pun absolutely intended). And as a few commenters pointed out, this could also explain why Marika tells Radagon he is yet to become a god, even though they are one person at that point. (Tbh I have to admit I haven't been keeping up with your videos, since otherwise I definitely would have given you a shout-out!)
@@garrulousgoldmask nah our ideas are similar but definitely unique, no need for a shout out haha. It's cool to see people in the community coming to similar conclusions.
The Grandam had some of the best voice lines in the game. Not only did the voice actor nail it but the lore implications from her were the biggest in the DLC.
I had a similar thought in regards to marika being a vessel but from a more norse perspective. Practitioners of seider were like shamans but made contact with spirits via possession. I would also recommend reading Anglo Saxon (old English) poetry as it describes biblical stories with a Saxon twist. One being a dream of the rood which describes the crucifixion from the perspective of the cross which also refers to the cross as a gallows tree.
Another great video. Something about your whole build up leading to your final statements makes me wonder, is From software trying to reintroduce inga to Christianity?
Thank you! So I think it's more along the lines of FromSoft having a syncretic religion that fuses together Buddhism and Christianity. Having played through all of their Soulsbornekiroring titles, it was wild to see that this theme of fusion has been present all the way since Demon's Souls. (Old Monk, QED!) I think Elden Ring is probably the most sophisticated attempt at combining Buddhism and Christianity. But ofc with Elden Ring, FromSoft also went wild on adding in so many different religious traditions, e.g. Shinto, Norse, Sumerian, Egyptian, Celtic, Hindu, etc.
your sin is stored in the balls joke made me immediately go "unlike elden ring, where it's stored in the womb" for a couple of reasons. the red spear in marika's womb, as well as the status of all of her children being born cursed, while renalla's are all fine until they fall sometime later. It also reminds me of a theory i've been thinking about a lot lately. what if Ranni was Godwyn? if the children born of Marika's womb are all cursed, what's to say she didn't use Renalla as a surrogate mother? it would answer the motive for killing godwyn specifically, as well as explain the half death. the associations with children and cuckoos. radagons specific choice of gifts for renalla.
Brilliant!! This is the first time I've heard reference to Christianity in regards to Original Sin. I think that parallel helped me to understand the world of Elden Ring, and why things are the way they are. This assesment is dead on!
As a side note, I also noticed some parallel connecting this concept of the abyssal serpent both in game and theology. There is great serpent cast into the abyss for 1000 years, only to be released (there is a reference between this serpent and the one that tempted Eve). I also see strong parallels between the biblical serpent and its representation of the original sin, and Messmer's base serpent
Hey man, I really enjoyed the video! One quick bit of constructive criticism: Could you work on balancing the audio a bit more for when the NPC's talk compared to your voice? It would also be nice if you centered the NPC dialogue in the speakers as well. (For my own videos, I usually have multiple takes where I have the camera centered on the NPC for audio, and other takes for cinematic stuff)
Wow, I didn't realise the parallels to Christianity went this deep! I wonder if part of the reason Beast are Sacred to the Hornsent are because Beast cannot commit Sin, they are untouched by the original sin.
Sidenote - Cardinal Sin is a dope metal song by Powerwolf. That should help you distinguish between the two concepts of Original Sin and Cardinal Sin in Elden Ring.
Yo! Love your ideas. I'd just like to add that Marika acts as both she which committed the original sin and who "forgave" us through sacrifice. There seems to me no doubt Marika knew what she was getting into by shattering the Elden Ring, and planned to grant grace back unto those who were "pardoned" from the orginal sin. This mirrors closely the Biblical forgiveness of original sin through the (self)sacrifice of jesus (who is equal part God and man.)
Great video! Now, I wonder the following: if Marika is both the vessel and the god, whose soul is Radagon's soul? Maybe some kind of fire giant? Or a fled god (Placidusax's god)?
I think we're basically on the same page here, but I think the end of the story shows us Marika was never a God, and since she only seems to remain in body - like Godwyn - the story of Elden Ring, one way or the other, was about removing the influence of non-corporeal Gods from the world. All references to Marika's godhood originate from Metyr (via communication to the fingers, then the readers, and on to the populace at large). Metyr, who was revealed to be cut-off from the greater will/flawed/insane/winging EVERYTHING. All of that Marika is a god in truth "knowledge" is, at the very least, suspect, and I believe just outright false BECAUSE of the sacred rite scroll. Three elements: Ushering in a God. A lord. A vessel. God: Elden Beast. Lord: Radagon (Radagon IS Marika) Vessel: Marika Feels like Marika was led astray by Metyr (but she eventually questioned what was going on, plumbed the depths of the order, found out it was all fiction, and set the shattering into motion), Metyr completely misunderstood what the divine ritual would accomplish or otherwise saw ushering in the Elden Beast as a way to restore contact with the greater will, and Radagon took full advantage of the situation (choosing Golden Order Fundamentalism after Marika discovered the actual truth, and sided with the God he helped to usher in under false pretenses)... At least, seems to me. As to Marika's motivation/the reason why she bought into Metyr's delusion (or possibly, outright lie), totally agree avenging her people could be it - though melding with Radagon to, what she thought was "become a God" strictly for the sake of power is plausible - just as melding with her past love Radagon to restore his soul also seems like it could've been part of her calculus. P.S. Since Marika wasn't obliterated and remained in the vessel with Radagon, that means Mohg was still in the vessel when Rhadahn's soul got added. Which also explains why Miquella chose Rhadahn - he needed a lord strong enough to drop galaxies on heads/literally stop the cosmos above to keep Mohg in check. Though, maybe, the original soul inhabitant of the vessel gets replaced over time - which kind of explains why Marika just seems to be gone at the end of the base game. I think the Radagon is Marika twist might also suggest, since Marika seemed to just cease to exist over time, "grace" is the rememant of Marika that she created as part of her "shattering plan" to ensure her original sin was "fixed". The original sin specifically being: performing the divine ritual in the first place based on Metyr's influence instead of following the sacred rite scroll. She didn't fully understand what she was doing, thinking SHE was becoming the God instead of, really, becoming the jar, so to speak (meaning, that she was just the vessel/crucible, NOT the god being born from it). Again - just how it feels to me. I think the reasoning is sound, but, like with all fiction, since I didn't create the story, its just the theory that makes sense to me, and its only exactly that... A theory.
Apologies - forgot to add one point. DLC story trailer - what is missing from the picture of Marika at the divine gate? Literally any other "living" body to act as a vessel for the Lord's soul that would accompany the God being ushered in.
One of the only things we know for sure about the lore is the fact that she became a god. They even made a video showing us the exact moment she ascended into godhood at the divine gate. We also get confirmation of this at the end of the game when Miquella does the exact same thing at the exact same location and ascends into godhood
@@Cbrunning849 Roger that - and what I'm saying is that the DLC calls that thing we know "for sure" into question, due to the things I pointed out in my comment. The vid this comment was left on even makes the point that at the gate, Marika didn't achieve godhood, but only attained it at the end of the base game. THE biggest evidence against Marika attaining godhood like Miquellla - where is the "vessel" with Marika at the gate? If she became a God similar to Miquella at the gate, where is her "Rhadahn" in that trailer? Is it whatever she pulls the Golden strands from? Ok, let's say it is - when did Miquella do that with Rhadahn? If anything, that detail makes the two rituals different. All references to her Godhood originate from Metyr via the fingers, and the DLC tells us Metyr was fundamentally flawed. That means "Godhood confirmed"? The DLC flipped the script of what we knew "for sure". I'm not saying I'm right, but I would ask you watch the vid we are commenting on again, and maybe go through the points I made again, and then ask yourself where is the other person, the vessel for the LORD in the trailer showing Marika become a God? And say she did become a God - who is performing the ritual to usher her in - is she each of the 3 elements outlined in the sacred rite scroll? If so - why is the Elden Beast part of the conversation? Shit, why even IS the Elden Beast? The reveal of Elden Beast at the end of the base game came out of NOWHERE - and the DLC kind of defined its role/gave context to the message of "God Slain". Again, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying Marika's story might just be a bit more tragic now - jar shaman put through NOTHING but pain, is told by an incomprehensible mass of fingers that she can become a God - but ends up being the "jar" for someone else to inhabit... THAT'S one hell of a compelling story.
@@TheHi-NoteFunClub-BeatsByMike Perhaps those strands are meant to be the vessel? Maybe Marika is holding them aloft to prove that she has something to begin the ritual.
I am dreading the Elden Ring movie/series. Some things should just not be adapted. You'll probably get some person who has never played the game or read the lore who will try to turn it into Game of Thrones.
15:45 Wait, I remember hearing that all tarnished are descendants of Godfrey. Also the curse they could be referring to here is the "Grace of Gold" itself. In From Software games, they eventually see that inability to die as curse and those in the Grace of Gold is under the law of The Golden Order which stripped away death and hidden it in Faram Azul.
"Sin is stored in the balls" 10/10, no notes. This is peak theorizing But seriously, very good video and I enjoy your theories. I wonder where you place Godfrey in all of this. If you have another video about this that I missed that's on me, but since he was her first Elden Lord I still think her ascension parallels Miquella's almost one to one. Revealing Miquella's ascension is Fromsoft telling us how Marika ascended as well, and that would mean that Godfrey's soul is housed within a vessel(a hornsent vessel, imo). At least that's my read on the situation
Thank you so much! And I'm actually working on a video about Hoarah Loux and Serosh! Still fine-tuning my theory crafting but I definitely agree that there could be a parallel between him and Marika, though I would see a bit more metaphorically: Hoarah Loux is the "vessel" for Godfrey the lord, who in turn ushers in a powerful beast, Serosh. And of course Miquella's mane is a clear callback to Serosh.
Yayyyyy Garrulous videoooooooo ♡♡♡ I do wonder If like I imagine the great tree is (one side of the equation ranting about how its mistranslated as the kanji used for greattree and erdtree are the same, the other side pointing to several items and descriptions yet to be changed referencing a greattree such as root resin) that it is in fact column a AND b, that the erdtree came from the greattree. The erdtree grew from it to the point it's grafted or intertwined with the greattrees roots that sustained it. Perhaps this original sin is of the same nature. Perhaps the original sin was the sharing of ideas, the knowledge (see images on front of obelisks at moghwyn- shown as a literal sharing of fruit- or the front of the tree sentinel shield) and this knowledge involved fire- Perhaps even burning trees, and the power gained as a result. Thus does new life grow from death, and from death, one obtains power. - Ancestral Spirit's Horn
@garrulousgoldmask Speaking of numen I am often perplexed now, with the additional of the shadow realm, if many of the item descriptions / character selection that refer to numen as descendants from another land / world are simply referring to the now annexed shadowlands? Like if a single continent had a part break off into a smaller island, and your parents just happen to be on the small new island side of that divide, you may now be of a different land and be called something else, but hail from another land / world (that is in fact still technically the same place, a part of the original- like the shadow lands is a part or was a part of the lands between) The video I am currently finishing off is about the great tree. I just checked out that portion of your video and we agree on all of those points, however I had NO idea of the addition of that information to the deeproot maps! That's another silver bullet ty, sir! I'll be sure to credit ♡ Ever brilliant indeed.
Heh, I'm also thinking that the Land of Numen just refers to the Land of Shadow. I just checked and it is wild that the term "Numen" doesn't show up in the DLC at all... On that note, I've also been wondering if all of the depictions we've seen of giant ships were actually misinterpretations of the stone coffins in the Cerulean Coast. (Kind of like how dinosaur bones were seen as "proof" of dragons existing, etc.) So the descendants may have thought they came from giant ships, but were actually from the same area the whole time. Ooh, sounds like a great topic-can't wait! And I'm always glad to share the daintiest morsels of wisdom ...\T/...
@garrulousgoldmask I have a little theory that "numen" is just new nomenclature they (shaman) assumed after the separation of the shadowlands and burial of their past. A way to move on, like 'New Man' hahaha since the eternal cities seemed to be in the business if making new men (I imagine since they are possibly unable to give birth conventionally) Yes the boats are very interesting... I'm of two minds about it at present but I have a theory I am following for my next big video that I think is pretty sound 😁 the timeline is exhausting, I know you can relate to that lol
More on Miquella and the repercussions of Marika's sin, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing when seperating from St. Trina as he needed to leave behind his kindness for the remaining tarnished and beings of the lands between. The "egg" of sorts has it's twiggy arm stretched upward completeing the pose Miquella assumes atop Radahn. My theory is that this is St. Trina's arm as we can also notice a single hand poking out next to her face. She was transposed in dormant slumber to be born again in the land of spirits since their body would be no more, burned in the ghostflames. In this same manner we can interact with Melina, Torrent, and Ranni among others watching them fade in and out of existence. Perhaps even "Between" is quite literally between life and death where we have not experienced the "Halig Land" or whatever it may be called save for Elphael and what we know as the Halig Tree. There are after all three intertwining rings that make up the logo of the game. It's a stated fact that Godwyn and Ranni have "died" at least halfway so maybe that gives them a different agency as Godwyn has become part of the ecosystem attempting to baturally reintroduce death to the Lands Between. Ranni is quite adept at soul transferance at least her own. I almost wish finding the death root was more integral because it would make more sense how Gurranq regains his death powers which with him being Marika's "shadow" Maliketh adds up to me that he too hails from the Land of Shadow. Thanks for coming to my unorganized TED talk ✌️
4:30 It seems a bit improbable that the Elden Beast would have arrived this late in the timeline, since it is this beast that became the Elden Ring*, and we can see the ER was already present in Farum Azula, in an age far more ancient than anything happening at the Gate of Divinity in the trailer. * : see "Elden Stars" item description. Confirmed by the EB wound when we fight it, which is the one inflicted by Marika when she struck the Elden Ring. It is also explained that the EB was sent by the Greater Will as a golden star, not invoked or called (though the item description uses the dreaded "it is said that", so mb take it with a pinch of salt).
Remember ascension of marika is really similar to Griffith from berserk. Betrayal for hornsent and shaman villagers. Seduction for the multiple lords that marika entice with
Men, you really is the Goldmask, this theory video is soo good, full of information that make more sense than the game's lore, we need more people that dissect the game like you, i subscribe for more 🤩 and in the dragon lord description, it is said in japanese that the old god of placidusax was gone, not fleed, i think that Marika kill the other god, and with Maliketh being a beast clergyman, i think the two made a trap to kill the ancient goddess, is that why Maliketh say's that Marika betray him, after all he do for her, Marika just use Maliketh to slay a god, and imprison the death run inside him, tormenting him for ages, that make sense when we put Maliketh in the same reigh of the Dragon, like he was an important priest or something in the age of the dragons, and i think that the old god was (MY THEORY) The Gloam Eyed Queen, she was an Empyrean, an Queen and have the power of the rune of death, just someone who was a God or slay a god, has the power of the runes, and the GEQ has this priests like the godskin Apostle and Noble, and she is a snake being too, people has see his image in the godskin peeler, this can make an connection with the dragons she being an snake, but also the Gloam Eyed Queen can be another candidate in the same age as Marika, and Marika kill her because she was dangerous, killing gods, and maybe is she who has killed the old god of placidusax, i hate that fromsoftware leave so loose ends in the story, that make we create a lot of theory and is fun, but we can never knew the true story behind.
I interpreted the god being slayed after the Elden Beast boss fight to be Radagon since Marika turns back to her female self. He did turn into the sacred relic sword which looks a lot like the fingerslayer blade. It does read "remains of a god who should have lived eternal". And also seems to put Radagon in his iconic T pose we can see at the churches of Marika. In the same way the fingerslayer blade is fashioned from a corpse I think the Elden Beast did that to Radagon's corpse. So what was left is just Marika
The Remembrance is clearly of the Elden Beast though, so it's probably the god that was slain. Radagon's probably dead too, but he doesn't get the separate notification. Maybe Marika's dead as well, and putting her head back on her body only enables her remains to work like Enia's body and the Twin Maiden Husks do.
Regarding the Secret Rite Scroll ritual's need for a vessel, isn't that to house the spirit of the Elden Lord? If Marika was the vessel, neither she nor the Elden Beast would be the god in this equation. Also, based on how Miquella's plan works, the vessel might need to be dead and basically a husk, removing Marika's soul from the picture. There may be a difference between the Elden Beast's godhood and an Elden Ring-wielding god too. Regarding Marika's intent on Miquella becoming a god, the Capital Outskirts "echo" of Marika is as follows: "Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." From this, it seems that Marika has no issue with her Empyrean children trying to become a god, as it serves her goal of someone becoming strong enough to kill the Elden Beast. In fact, if an Empyrean doesn't become a god, they'll be cut down by someone who does walk the path that leads to killing the Elden Beast. While a Site of Grace with guidance that points to Enir-Ilim can only be reached after Miquella's Great Rune shatters, we can infer from Leda's notes that Miquella has already accessed the tower when the DLC begins. For that matter, Leda probably brings Miquella Mohg's body early on. As such, Miquella has all the means to become a god well before his Great Rune shatters, the event that probably marks him using the Gate of Divinity. Marika likely just wants to determine who's the best suited for killing the Elden Beast. As to Marika's motives for killing the Elden Beast, rather than redemption, she might just want revenge. Whether Marika was told false promises to make her become a god, the Elden Beast failed to fulfill genuine promises, or it tried to control Marika, she certainly seems to direct her ire toward it. We know that Marika is a very vengeful person, so the Elden Beast might be the target, regardless of whether Marika herself could be killed by her plan. While curses are attributed to Marika, Roderika seems to just be referring to the Tarnished being, well, the Tarnished, something Marika actively did rather than it being inherited. Not everyone in the Golden Order is a god or demi-god either, and it doesn't seem like Marika would have been distributing any of her flesh and blood to meld with people to boot. For what it's worth, the Hornsent Grandam doesn't call Marika a "wanton strumpet" in the Japanese script, but that detail of the English recording session could still be relevant if it doesn't clash with anything in the Japanese text. The Grandam might also see Messmer's soldiers as Marika's figurative children, serving Marika as a god, or she's just talking trash in general. Ancient texts could get quite colorful with insults. Thanks for another insightful video! I also really liked things such as Midra's cutscene playing in reverse to "put a pin in" a topic and the quick cuts of what Marika's upbringing was like. I'm glad to see someone else mention how the open gate in the DLC's Story Trailer resembles the view when looking at the star or nebula in the Elden Beast's arena! Perhaps the Gate of Divinity leads to the Elden Beast's arena, and the area itself can change an Empyrean into a god, since the DLC can be done even after the Elden Beast is defeated. I also wonder if that star or nebula might be the Greater Will, though if it is, then that might not match with how the Greater Will has seemingly abandoned the Lands Between or is attending to other worlds. The Joshua Graham AI Bible quotes were an interesting way to handle quoting scripture, though I dislike AI voices emulating people. Also, isn't Augustine's name pronounced "Awe-gus-teen"? Anyway, thanks again for this video, and your one about Miquella's Great Rune!
I get the feeling there is a sense of innevitability to the entire history of Elden Ring. A world where the Greater Will required vassals to act through, power vacuums after the decline of the Ancient Dragons, the cruelties of the powerful all leading to the same cycles of people being oppressed as everyone fights for power, with Godhood within reach and so necessitating its pursuit
Me gusta la teoria donde se dice que hora loux traiciono a los cornamentados y ayudo a marika a convertirse en diosa. Pues los caballeros crucibles lo siguieron a el y tinene mucho que ver con la torre y los otros guerreros del lugar.
My thoughts: Marika's not the vessel, Radagon is. There are clear physical differences between them when they switch, so there's likely something about their fusion that keeps certain "parts" exclusive to one. Marika successfully ascended to godhood by making Radagon her lord and her Shaman biology resulted in the differences between her and Miquella's lords. Or, perhaps, there was a weird side-effect of having both the lord and god inhabit the same body. Or OR, she's both vessel and true god at the same time because her Shaman flesh allowed her to "meld harmoniously" with the lord inhabiting her. Instead of her body housing Radagon alone, they share it. Then there's always the possibility that there are multiple ways to become a god, even if you're using the gates at Enir-Ilim, and Miquella's just using a different method.
The theory about the betrayal is that Marika was on the side of the hornsent before she betrayed them. Marika was what the hornsent wanted, a saint made from their jar who can ascend into godhood. When she became a god, she betrayed them for obvious reasons. Her people were used as experiments to create a god. Wonder why the hornsent thought that was a good idea.
The entire purpose of Miquella’s ascension is to reject the way Marika created her order. It wouldn’t make sense for him to use the same secret rite. The most obvious thing that Messmer keeps company is the serpent, which Marika personally sealed within his body with an eye seal. You don’t “keep company” with a scroll halfway down a tower. In the garden of eden, a serpent tempted eve to commit the original sin. The nature of marika’s sin itself is still up for debate though
This makes me think Radagon did this ritual as well. Marika did like Radahn to Mohg. Took the Beast into herself as a vessel, then became a God. Radagon performed the same thing after exploring the knowledge of the Numen and Nox. It's why Radagon has not yet BECOME Marika. I think the Runes used to all be sepparate. I think GEC and the Godskins killed all the old gods and gathered all the runes. GW sent the Elden Beast when it was the right time, and it took in the runes and forced them into a circular order, the Elden Ring. I don't think the symbol in Farum Azula is the "Elden Ring." I think it is a sumbol of all of the runes and their harmony trickling down and taking root in the world, creating harmony with eveyrthing.
The only thing about this theory that throws it off for me is the fact that the vessel is used by the Lord's soul, not to house the God. The Secret Rite scroll specifically says "the Lord's soul will require a vessel". You said Marika should have been the vessel for the Elden Beast but that's not how it works.
Sure, but the lord is required to usher in a god's return. I see the Secret Rite Scroll like a 3-story building: the lord is the second floor required for the third floor (i.e. the god) and is itself built upon the first floor (i.e. the vessel). So the first floor/vessel is necessary for both floors/the lord and the god.
I've always felt like Marika wanted to die. She found out what St Trina already knew, that godhood is a prison. She colluded with Ranni and merked Godwyn as a mercy, because she knew he was an empyrean and the most likely to ascend after her. She also knew he was fiercely loyal to the Golden Order she had now become desperate to destroy.
If Marika worked with Ranni for the Night of the Black Knives, I doubt that Ranni would cover for her. Ranni openly admits to being the mastermind and behind it all, and later gifted something she created in the aftermath of that to Rykard. Additionally, with Ranni's deep love for Rennala and clearly implied hatred for Marika after Radagon's divorce, Ranni would have every reason to expose Marika's kin-slaying instead.
Hot take: It is both Original Sin AND Causality. The original sin brought forth disparity, separation. Before all things were one. Death fed Birth, which grew to Life, which faded into Death, to start the cycle anew. Marika brought the ideas into the Lands Between by drawing the thread and pulling down the Elden Beast. This starts the cycle of Lords and the Elden Ring. The Cycle of Causality, an eternal ring that wheels on. Causality is the entire game. Every ending except two leads to the next turn of the wheel. Only two lead to either the destruction of Marika and the Elden Ring, while the rest merely amend the rules of the next cycle. Frenzied Flame and Ranni.
I had been toying with a video about the fell god! There have been a ton of great videos about the dragons so I don't think I have too much to add there. But I do have a short video on why I think Metyr was Placidusax's god!
I think the "beginning sin" much more simple. Marika killed the previous god and took Order from her. This god of the Hornsent would, like the rest of their culture, be obsessed with death. And as the previous bearer of the Elden Ring, would have had her own Elden Lord. (As it would have to be a Queen, as all gods are Queens... For Lords are the husbands to gods.) It's the Gloameyed Queen. Her Lord was Placidusax. She created the Gates of Ascension (as we saw them new and bloody for Marika, but calcified for us). And she ruled with Destined Death, dominating the Hornsent and their culture. Her favored weapon even being of the sacred spiral of her palace: Enir Elim. Godhood is indeed a prison... One without a gaoler...
My theory is that the one who was in control all along is "Radagon" and not "Marika." Even the one who did most of the wars in the lands between is Radgon and not Marika. Maybe Marika has some influence on Radagon, but naturally a male is stronger physically and mentally than a female, and remember they are in one body so you can imagine the conflict between them. That's why the only plan that comes to Marika's mind is the "tarnished" and then broke the Elden ring, even if that will cost her life just for her to escape this prison. But hold on one minute. Who is Radagon? .. My theory is that Radagon is a Titan who lived at the time of Marika when she was at the Shaman village. At first, he had a hammer and a red hair, and many items tell us that Radagon hated his red hair because it looked like Titan. Another theory Radagon doesn't have any childreen from Marika; his only childreen are from Rennala (Radhan, Rykard, and Ranni), and you will notice Radhan and Rykard are so big physically, like titans, and Ranni's body is also in her origin body but she was a effected by her mother's genes. If you go to the church when Melina tells us that in this place Marika told Godfery to go to a far place and die as heroes with his men, the statue in the church is the statue of Radagon and not Marika; in other words, Radagon didn't agree to the marriage between Marika and Godfrey. That's why he forced Marika to send him away so he could always stay in control of Marika because he doesn't want another lord in control of Marika. and you will notice that even Mohg and Godrick were banned under the city of Lyendall. Some say this is because Marika hated the omen that looks like Hornsaint, but this theory is false because Marika could kill them since they were babies, but no, she kicked them out under the city of Lyendall so Radagon wouldn't hurt them as he did to her husband, Godfery. Okay, how about Miquela, Melina, and Malenia? Who is their father? Well, the grandmother of the hornsaint in the DLC described Marika as a “who slept with different men,” so their father is another man and not Radagon, and Miquella doesn’t look like Radagon. and their father was also an Empyrean. Even when Marika broke the elden ring, Radagon tried to fix it. That is a big sign that there is a conflict between the two sometimes, and only sometimes Marika comes back to her consciousness. That's why she can't speak to us even when we meet her inside the erd tree because she is only a vessel like Mohg who can't do anything to bring himself back physically. That's why when we fight her, she disappears, and Radagon replaces her as Radhan replaces Mohg. But you might ask when did Marika and Radagon become one? Well, my theory, it happened at the time when she was in the shaman village and they met there because if you place the shadow tree map and the Lands between map, the shaman village will be close to the mountain of the titans. My theory is that Marika and Radagon met together with Metyr Mother of Finger. Radagon was seeking godhood for power to serve the greater well, but Marika was seeking help for her people; that was the only thing on her mind at that after what she experienced from the hornsaint, but the greater well knows that Marika wants to be a god for her people only, and since she's a shaman and Empyrian, and the same with Radagon, they decided to mix together to become one for the ritual at the divnity gate, and the plan was that Radagon would be the vessel and Marika would be the god, but at the last moment the greater will reversed the process and made Marika the vessel and Radagon a god because he's more fit to the greater will's intentions. And also, Radagon and Marika are in one body, but they can also seperate, but I think this is Radagon's ability because when Radagon married Rennala, Marika was married to Godfery. At this time, Radagon had a plan with Rennala, but when Radagon saw Godfery taking control, he divorced Rennala and came back immediately to Leyndall City to kick Godfrey and ban him. One last thing to mention is that the night of the black night might be Radagon's plan through his daughter Ranni to kill the son of Godfrey Godweyn because he might be a threat to Radagon and the greater will. This is only a theory; I might be wrong.
One thing that's missing from this is the Gloam-eyed Queen. How does she fit into all of this? Is she the snake that tempted Merika or was it the other way around? 👀☕
You're the first person whom ive heard consider that Marika might have been the one to be seduced in that opening story. And I think there is some valid reason to consider that. But if she is the 'victim' of the seduction, then certainly she is also the 'victim' of the betrayal. That betrayal could well be that divinity is like a prison, as we've heard it for miquella, or perhaps simply that divinity wasn't as advertised to Marika. (Subject to the influence of the elden beast, cursed offspring, death still was a part of the ring at that point too, not to mention the state we find her at the end of the game)
Either the original sin was Marika taking the crucible away (and turning it into her Erdtree), OR her seducing the Abyssal Serpent (only for it to get killed and stripped of it' s grace). Messmer was born with a Snake inside his body. That means his father was ... ?
There's something interesting about the secret rite scroll underlining a lord's SOUL. "A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel." In the DLC we have: The Lord - Radahn The Vessel - Morgott's body The God - Miquella At Marika's time we have: The Vessel - Marika The Lord - ? The God - Elden Beast/Greater Will It could be that the betrayal in the cinematic was her not acting as the Vessel, not accepting the soul of a Lord inside her but acting as BOTH Vessel AND Lord and thus deciving the Hornsent. Perhaps she even killed that Lord. And she ushered in not a Hornsent-Approved-God but her own selected one (likely informed by the Two Fingers/Metyr). But then, because she didn't have a "lord", it created a need for one, which is why Godfrey, Radagon, and Tarnished become Elden Lords, to balance everything out and enact her will. As Elden Lords we already have our own vessels (Godfrey and the Tarnished are Grace-reanimated corpses). Maybe Radagon ( after he becomes the Elden Lord) merges with Marika, trying to perfect this disbalance: so that there's a Vessel, a Lord's soul AND a god all in one. The fly in the ointment of the Golden Order, one that is based on rhe conception of Marika being the one true god, is false BECAUSE it was created when: Vessel+Lord Marika. However after merging it's no longer true, Radagon has become God too but the GO never updated.
Literally only rule is dont be a jagoff and youre doing it. If you leave any more comments the only things they should say are sorry, how you would feel if somebody made fun of you like that, or how youd feel if somebody made fun of your child or family member like that. This person made a 20 minute video that obviously took a lot of effort and you watched it and thought "what if i left a comment that i would never say in person" because if you really go around making fun of people like that youre sick. Grow up or get out and let people enjoy their videos
FS has always been good at revealing the right amount and leaving just enough open to speculation, but imo not with ER. I think FS really messed up by not having dlc and back story for both Messmer and Melina. Nobody can resolve this story because of the missing fundamentals. I.e. the dragon god and it's disappearance, the nature of the original ascension, the differences with the abnormal ascension and the insight into Nox leaders including the GEQ and her involvement with Placidusax and the dragon god. Non of this will upset alternate endings. Explain these and I think the level of speculative opportunities will be just right. There will still be plenty of avenues fans minds can go down. Don't explain these and the story remains chaotic.
im confused in which timeline Radagon came into the picture, was it before godhood or after. or was it at the time when Godfrey still was in the picture? What I suspect is that she needed Godfrey to win power of armies to become god, and then she needed Radagon to escape it since she needed to birth a kindling maiden to burn the tree.
I also think Melinas motivation of burning the tree is that she wanted to free Messmer from the prison of shadow and avenge the mother for betraying everyone.
Honestly can’t believe it took me this long in my life to realize that the reason god cast out Adam and Eve because it was afraid of being overthrown by what it created. Not just because of eating from the tree of knowledge.
So what I understand you're implying is that the trailer shows the birth of the Golden Order. But in another video you mentioned that you believe Marika is the Gloam-Eyed Queen. So I see a bit of a problem reconciling the two. If Messmer and Melina were born before Marika approached the gate of divinity the gates of divinity that would mean Messmer was born before Marika became a god and thus Messmer wouldn't actually be a demigod which we know he's supposed to be. When exactly would you place this ascension in relation to other events like the birth of the Erdtree, Godfrey becoming Elden Lord, the defeat of the Gloam-Eyed Queen etc.
its 4am i did a deep lore research and i got to get it out so just listen, renalla meyter and marika are all the same in the story thematically the starlight amber holds the demi gods fate and renalla holds a amber egg big deal right,look the amber egg and meyters microcosm serve the same roll of a item that is beloved that no longer make sense and are the reason for impure/unready souls, i looked into the amber egg online and while the egg RADAGON gave renalla,an astrolager a egg made of material of stars that control fate that had a great rune for the aspect of life that is unborn demigods and a dataminer said the egg had strands of hair in it HMMM, and that egg is the fate of the demi and maybe ithold the strands of hair that marika plucked in the story trailer renallas love for this misunderstood power creates broken souls meyters love for this now cold orb makes her create lives that are confused and tortured marikas love... then i thought maliketh,godfrey,messmer, all abandoned after gaining power for her malenia just might be a forced vessel for the goddess of rot and gowry wants millicent betrayed and suffering to become something stronger and if the god ritual always means 3 parts coming together and after melina words saying that if her kids become nothing they are sacrifices in conclusion i think marika tried to control fate and ended up invoking something bigger than she thought she sealed the shadow realm at that gate at that moment trying to control fate messamer had no father as far as we know of (might be radagon)so why do you think he has a snake in him because she sealed it in him just like malenia with a portion of the rot goddess and BUMBUMBUM got caught in the frenzy flame and thats why she shattered the elden ring when even her god formed children died, the frenzy is a maybe but she is in a inquisitor's torture rune and there might be the flame in radagons head as he stands up
The localization is not an issue. It very clearly reflects the themes of civilization reducing natural complexity. The hegemony of Christian thought is intensely ingrained in western society and has for centuries been wielded as tool of oppression. The localization works as well as it does because of the tangled meaning between original sin and causality. Life is suffering in large part because of our knowledge of good and evil which Christians would say that animals lack but Buddhism proposes is a quality inherent to all living beings. Miquella's wish to throw off causality entirely is a direct rejection of the principles of his parent's Golden Order, Causality and Regression--a state achieved by reducing the complexity of the Elden Ring. But Ymir confirms the English localization when he says that Miquella lay the blame everywhere except his mother. This is where we see Miquella's youthful ignorance shine through. Miquella's desire to bury Marika's original sin could better be read as an attempt to carry on Marika's endless golden age without Marika's violent exclusion. Isn't this just a universal enlightenment misinterpreted in the same way that westerners who throw off Christian misinterpret Eastern philosophies? Miquella's curse is his eternal youth in everything that matters, including his forsight. He believes he can deliver the world to Nirvana through forced compassion and deliver a true death unto his brother's soulless corpse, seemingly not understanding that if anyone is closest to Nirvana, it's Godwyn himself.
I don't get how you conclude that the translation/localization is so wrong..? I understand that the causality is a key buddhist thing, but its not as if its an unknown concept in the bible, the original sin is the cause/explanation for why the world has sin, pain, and death in Christianity. A fan translation I've seen is, "to become a new god who would embrace everything, beyond the causality that has persisted since the beginning." The "causality that persisted since the beginning" is clearly a reference to Marika's actions when she became a God, which is what is called the original sin in the game. And we already know everything is interconnected because of the Law of Causality. Its pretty evident that the "original sin" is the underlying cause for the later downfall of the Order. The foundation was faulty, Miquella wants to fix the foundation. In Christianity, the original sin is the first cause that separated mankind from God, the first disparity, which then leads to all the other events in the bible. Everyone is thereby "cursed" with original sin. Theres wars, floods, blasphemy, etc. Then Jesus is seen as the one who comes back as the "New Adam" to fix the disparity between God and mankind that Adam and Eve caused. His death is the "ultimate sacrifice" that allows the cleansing of original sin. Then he serves as intercessor between the Father and mankind, so that we may be "whole" again, like Adam and Eve were before their original sin. In other words Jesus establishes a new age thats free from the original sin, (though you have to choose Jesus, where as with Moquella you wouldn't be able to refuse) Miquella wants to "bury the original sin." Another way to say it is that he wants to put it to rest. Its still an active force thats affecting the events in the world, so he wants to bury it. We bury the dead to send them off and separate them from our daily life. Miquella wants to do the same with the original sin. If any player is paying attention to the themes of the game its apparent that Marika's original sin affects and curses everyone, confirmed by the description of the Law of Causality. And Miquella being an obvious parallel to Jesus (he sacrifices his body marked by crosses which we follow like theyre the Christian Stations of the Cross), wants to uncurse everyone from being trapped in the butterfly effect that started with Marika's original sin (just like Jesus who is said to save us from the effects of Adam and Eve's sin) The translation is pretty damn on point imo.
So that's a great description of original sin as a causal force! But my issue with the localization was with the Buddhism side, since there just isn't an equivalent to original sin. What's more, in the base game, I don't think "original sin" would be an accurate term to use in the spell Law of Causality, especially in the English version, where it's written more as a "scientific" law with fewer religious connotations.
@@garrulousgoldmask is the buddhist idea about going beyond all causality? That's kinda what I thought. My understanding is that Miquella is just trying to go beyond one specific causality, the series of causes and effects that Marika started. That doesn't seem very biddhist to me. And yeah, the Law of Causaliry is more like a scientific law of nature, so we can interpret events and things in the world of Elden Ring by that law, and the law of regression too. So besides just common sense knowledge of cause and effect, the Law of Causality affirms that Marika's "original sin" has a butterfly effect and impacts everything thereafter, which is why Miquella needs to essentially hard reset the order
So that is a fantastic question and has been a key point of contention within many different Buddhist schools of thought! I touch on it more in my video about Miquella's Great Rune but there are varying interpretations about whether the path to liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth as well as the end goal of enlightenment and/or nirvana are in fact bound by the law of cause and effect. And it would be transcending the very notion of causality, as opposed to one singular event.
Theory I’ve been having is that Marika’s goal that sets the game in motion is to die because godhood is a prison. She does a lot of specific things that pave the way for her/radagons/elden beasts death which wasn’t possible before she did it. Creating the tarnished for one, removing the rune of death so that the tarnished couldn’t truly die. & then she shattered the elden ring so that her demigod offsprings would take the shards, so that the tarnished could kill them off & collect them & become powerful enough to kill a god. She created Melina, who just so happens to have the power to grant the strength of runes & burn the erdtree, & Melina goes after the tarnished (coincidence?). All of marikas actions make it possible for a champion to gain enough power to slay her. I think she ultimately just wanted release from her godhood
Yes! My main theory for interpreting her actions is that Marika wants to escape being a god. And it's also very likely she changed her methods for escape since in the 1.00 version, Miquella was effectively confirmed as Marika's successor. I've also been looking for the moment when Marika's motives may have changed...
@@garrulousgoldmask Marika ultimately wanting to just die has always been my read as well. At times I've taken it as such a given that I'm surprised when I see people who disagree.
Hewg's whole thing seemed the clearest indication to me since my first playthrough. Melina being Marika's daughter also seemed to line up nicely with that (recently confirmed with the DLC).
Seems like she knew she had to line a lot of things up just right before shattering the ER, because she would be screwed for good from the moment she actually shattered it. We'll never know all the specifics, but there are so many points where "Marika was clearly setting X up" or "Marika seems to have been involved in Y somehow" that it seems hard to deny that the major events pre-shattering all set up the groundwork for a tarnished to eventually come out her out of her misery.
I have also been having that theory but there is just one question that I can't answer. Why didn't just Marika take Malekith to a secluded area and fight him to the death over there? She does have the ability to teleport so Malekith wont be able to restrain her. This means that the fight would have two outcomes, either Marika dies (Mission Accomplished) or Malekith dies she gets the rune of death and kills herself (Mission Accomplished). Every time I come up with an answer I immediately contradict it and it just makes my brain hurt lol.
@@zen-t3w Radagon may be the answer to this. If he's able to take full control, Marika would likely consider that a fate worse than death. Marika needed someone to kill both her and Radagon, and Maliketh probably wouldn't have done that.
The scar seal implies that it is a duty from which there is no release. And marikas is in the haligtree. Miquellas haligtree being left unfinished is said to make Marika sorrowful. The erdtree recycles spirits allowing rebirth.
I think The Haligtree was to rebirth Marika free of the elden beast and the elden rings duties put up upon her.
I think the tarnished and everything else was plan b and a fail safe. But if she could've rebirthed to regain freedom I've no doubt she'd still try to rule
What if the betrayal is because Marika, after being a succesful jar experiment, was meant to be just the vessel for another Lord or God, but in last moment she flipped the script, killed the God or and became both God and vessel herself? Or something like that. The three part lord-vessel-God is confusing to me but the essence is that she hijacked the ritual for her benefit.
Ooh, that's very possible! That type of subterfuge could explain how she got access to the Gate of Divinity and Enir-Ilim. Though with the mountain of bodies, I had assumed she just took what she wanted through brute force.
@@garrulousgoldmask I think those mountains of bodies are the Gate of Divinity after it was freshly constructed rather than the result of a massacre Marika committed. It's also possible that might just be the gate when it's "fueled up", so to speak, since the gate after Miquella uses it seems surprisingly dried out with lots of dust in the air. As for where Miquella might have gotten enough blood to "refuel" the gate, we know from the Lord of Blood's Exultation Talisman that the Bloody Fingers have been bringing the blood of Tarnished that they kill to Miquella's Mohgwyn cocoon.
I agree that’s why we see all the bodies freshly dead right at the divine gate. I believe she somehow tricked the gloam eyed queen, or they were apart of a ritual at the divine gate. Once everyone was gathered at the gate she had maliketh kill them all and took the godhood for herself.
I'm not convinced that the Sacred Rite Scroll even describes what Marika did. In-game, Miquella uses that rite to return Radahn's soul to a new body. The only relation to Marika might be how the Lord is supposed to usher in the God's return, which could be how Marika/Miquella become a God, but Marika had neither a vessel nor a Lord to usher her into becoming a God. This being Radagon doesn't make much sense, when it essentially ignores the existence of Godfrey.
@@RevanX77 It doesn't ignore Godfrey at all, it just says that chronologically Radagon came first. We still don't really understand the nature of their duality, whether they were once separate people who came together, or any real details of how Godhood works. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that he could work as a lord - especially since he literally ended up playing the role of one after Godfrey was cast out
I think the "original sin" referred to is not so much the desire to be a god in general, but to sever life from death. In Genesis after all the sin of Adam is the fruit of the tree which gives knowledge of the distinction between Good and Evil, paralleled in Elden Ring (in my opinion) by the severing of the Lands Between from the Land of Shadow (the land of Life and the land of Death respectively). I think in the context of the game, Miquella is presented as the redeemer or Christ figure who will undo the original sin, by embracing both together ("whether graceful or malign"). This is why Miquella's Great Rune says he divested himself of everything "all in an effort to bury the original sin. To embrace the whole of it, and be reborn as a new god." This is also why the localisers decided to translate that word as "original sin" in this context, because it relates to Miquella's embrace of both the graceful and the malign (embracing "the whole of it," a phrase also connected to Ranni), that were separated by Marika's "sin." But as Emir says, there is no hope for redemption, as he just ends up finding his own way of repeating the mistakes of his mother.
@@evilfungas love this interpretation~
So I agree with a lot of this! I definitely think one of Marika's sins was the severing of life from death. But for me, I saw that as Marika plucking away the Rune of Death, which happened only after she defeated the Gloam-Eyed Queen and after her ascent to godhood. And while Adam and Eve were barred from the Tree of Life by flaming cherubims (Sidenote: That would go hard af as a FromSoft boss fight), Marika did have her own Tree of Life with the Erdtree, at least briefly in the Age of Plenty. (The Erdtree even had a Rune of Life in the 1.0 version.) I also like to think that the inability to die that people are currently cursed with in the Lands Between is a pale imitation of the true eternal life attained by faith in Christ.
I also completely agree that Miquella perceives himself as a redemptive Christ figure. (Him sucking out the poison from Freyja's Scarlet Rot reminded me so much of medieval accounts of Christian saints.) But as I talked about in my video on his Great Rune, his desire to go beyond causality goes even farther and further back than Marika's original sin, since he's trying to overcome one of the 2 laws of reality, as outlined by the Golden Order Fundamentalists.
@@garrulousgoldmask Personally, I think the trailer is hinting at the fact that Marika's ascension to godhood is contemporary with the separation of Life from Death when it shows the sky being divided between the gold of the interior gate and the dusk-coloured sky outside. Although this is pure speculation, and there is reason to think otherwise, it just seems fitting to me that this would be when the Lands Between were first separated from the Shadow Lands, so the latter would serve as the place where Death would "wash up" and be sequestered. And perhaps this is the founding act of the Golden Order, what unites Gold and Order, the ordering of the world into a place of life and a place of death.
It's funny that in the end Miquella seems to only further involve himself in the karmic cycle of causality the more he tries to break out of it, possibly echoing his mother.
I like the theory but one thing I don't understand. If the original sin is her separating life from death then how would Miquella accepting everyone good or evil "bury the original sin" aka separating life from death
I don't think Marika is removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring in the DLC's Story Trailer, so that's unlikely to be Marika's "original sin." Additionally, there's no trace of the Gloam-Eyed Queen or her servants anywhere in the Land of Shadow, making it further unlikely that they relate to the "original sin" mentioned by Messmer's Remembrance. Miquella's embracing also doesn't relate to life and death.
Good catch on Marika being the vessel, couldn't really understand how her (being the deity) fit with Godfrey, Serosh and Elden Beast. Marika being the vessel (flesh that melds harmoniously) with the Elden Beast (later the Elden Ring) and Godfrey/Radagon and us being the Lord makes a lot more sense.
I think Godfrey defeating Serosh and having him on his back mirrors Ornis defeating the Divine bird and using his wings. This method of gaining power is the Hornsent's Divine invocation whereas Marika went a step beyond of getting the most powerful beast (Elden beast) + having a Lord. Thanks to Gameplus channel releasing a video about Godfrey recently.
I still wonder where the Snake fits in beyond the Abyssal snake within Mesmer considering Eve was seduced by a snake.
Oh that's an interesting parallel between Serosh and Ornis! And of course Miquella riding Radahn is a clear visual callback to Serosh on top of Radahn. I also really like the comparison quite a few folks made between the horned lions we see all throughout Belurat and Enir-Ilim and Radahn inside Mohg being a horned lion as well...
One of my upcoming videos will cover the Abyssal Serpent!
Do you think we benefit from boss weapons through the same or a similar process?
Ooh, I hadn't thought of the boss weapons working that way before, but that tracks! That also reminded me of the Smithing Talismans which mentions how ancient blacksmiths had the power to "imbue weapons with souls."
huh. that's probably how messmerflame ended up in the fire knights weapons then, and might be the basis for most forms of weapon enchanting in general, given the prevelance of heraldic seals in weapon arts.
Eiglay has to fit into the messmer equation
The abyssal serpent is fated to devour all in its flames endless hunger *TOGETHAAAA WE WILL DEVOUR THE GODS* vibes?
I'd like to share also some of interesting connections between Marika, Radagon, Elden Beast and the Erdtree to the Christian Theology that I noticed:
- Marika and Radagon are the one body in similar way how Eve and Adam was once a one body. Also it's said that "for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh". In Elden Ring, the "one flesh" is very literal.
- Eve was created out of Adam's ribs. In reverse, Elden Beast makes Radagon into a sword made out of ribs.
- Marika was once from flesh and blood (judging from cinematic trailer, her portraits and her depiction in intro, she had once fleshy pink skin, also she was able to give birth to fleshy humans) but in all this years of godhood she turned into something that reminds a stone statue (and Radagon is immune to bleeding). It looks like a reverse of the myth of creation of human, where Adam was created from dust of the earth and then he received the breath of life.
- "knowing good and evil" is sometimes interpreted in theology as "the power to decide what's good and what's evil". This power to decide is the Elden Ring, which is an equivalent of Logos in Elden Ring. It governs the rules of the world, but it can be edited. And the power to edit the rules of the world and decide what's good and evil is God's power and no one else. This is why the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was forbidden for humans. And I think that the Elden Ring is very similar to this fruit. By the way this interpretation of the Original Sin reminds me of Dark Souls. Gwyn's First Sin was denying the rules of the world. Instead of letting the fire fade so the Age of Dark could naturally come, Gwyn let himself on fire, destroying the order of the world. In short, he himself decided how world is supposed to work. "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And men assumed a fleeting form.These are the roots of our world." as Aldia said. But while in Dark Souls it was quite obvious what went wrong from the beginning, in Elden Ring the Original Sin is more open for speculation. But the Causality thing could be a great clue (however plucking the Destined Death out of Order is also something that denies the natural order of the world, it's strange for me that only Melina wants the true Death to be restored).
- there was also a second sacred tree in Eden, the Tree of Life. Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from this tree, and probably it was the thing that granted them immortality for the time they were in the paradise. The Erdtree is very similar to that tree, since once it could bless people with grace, and even resurrect them.
- when Adam and Eve were banished from Eden, it was sealed and guarded by an angel (seraph if I remember well) with burning sword. If the Erdtree is the closest thing to Eden (since it's the thing where the souls go), then Morgott would be it's guardian. He's demigod (and angels are beings that between God and humans) and has a flaming sword in second phase.
- Marika, Radagon and Elden Beast are the Trinity. But instead the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we have the Father, the Mother and the Beast. And the Beast is referenced in Book of Revelation alongside with the Dragon. In Book of Reveation the Beasts and the Dragon aren't the same beings (Dragon is giving power to the Beasts) but I think in Elden Ring Elden Beast and Dragon were merged into one entity - I judge it from Elden Beast's internal name "nebuladragon" and it's draconic look. Marika is Christ-like figure, but it's possible that's she's in fact closer to the Antichrist. For example in Book of Revelation it's noted that during end-times people were marked with "the Mark of the Beast" and no one could buy or sell if they didn't had this mark. Grace of Gold is what's reminds me of this. The Nomadic Merchants had troubles with trading and even living and they couldn't settle because they lacked the Grace of Gold and that's why Kale welcomes the Tarnished as his kin.
Sorry for the super long comment. I just realy wanted to share this. I also wanted to say that your video was amazing, and I love how much research you did in philosophy and religions, I can't wait for more.
Thank you so much--and those are all fantastic points! I really like the idea of Morgott being a Cherubim who guards the Tree of Life with a flaming sword. (And from his brother, we do know that Omens can have wings too!)
There are a ton of parallels between Gwyn and Marika and the fact that both committed an original/first sin, really seals the deal there. And while I have explored the nature of the Apocalypse in Gnostic Christianity with the Frenzied Flame, your comment makes me think I should explore the orthodox (lower case o) version as well!
Thanks again for watching and for taking the time to leave such a detailed comment! I love reading comments like this that also grapple with all the intricate themes and symbolism.
14:05 One possible line of events i came up with:
- The hornsent come into contact with the fingers, but are afraid of their appeareance and unable to discern their words nor can they learn to do so.
- A grief-stricken shaman girl, fleeing from her Hornsent overlods, wanders into one of the finger ruins.
- The Fingers see this as an oportunity to finally get someone to actually listen to them, so they protect her and eventually are able to communicate.
- The Fingers pass on their words and teach her incantations.
- The Hornsent would not even try to listen to the monstrous fingers, so it's easier to send the girl, now fully grown, spreading their words, and gaining trust by wielding the finger's powers.
- The Fingers become so influential that their words are followed as law, giving them access to Enir-Ilim
- The Divine Gateway is built and Marika ascends to godhood.
Possibly
I had a similar timeline in my head, though again this is pure speculation.
- a young Marika flees her village into the Finger Ruins, where she meets the Two Fingers. At some point, she is given Malekith, though whether he is created ex nihilo or a Farum Azula beast is modified I cannot say.
- the Fingers guide Marika on a path to godhood. Along the way, she meets and falls in love with a barbarian warrior named Hourah Loux. The two have a child together who shares Marika's golden hair, and Hourah Loux's fellow warriors become the first of Marika's elite knights.
- Marika, fearing that her young son will be persecuted by her many enemies, accelerates along the path laid out by the Fingers. Through trickery, she enters Enir Illim and uses the Gate of Divinity to ascend to godhood. Hourah Loux becomes Godfrey. I'm assuming he was present for the ascension and out of frame in the trailer, since the Secret Rite Scroll did confirm that a God is defined by having a Lord as consort.
- Marika flees Enir Illim, her goals there accomplished, and plants the Erdtree in the city that will eventually become Leyndell, perhaps atop existing roots. The War against the Fire Giants soon begins.
- Two things happen, I'm unsure of the order. First, during the war, blood from the fire giants and Fell God melds with Marika's flesh, which alongside the zeal she presently has for her Order, results in the creation of an alternate persona, Radagon. Second, the Hornsent learn en masse of Marika's actions and their holy women pronounce a curse on her offspring.
- At some point, Morgott and Mohg are born. Messmer and Melina are also born, though their births are different from Miquella and Malenia's. The game text doesn't acknowledge Messmer as a direct sibling of anyone other than Melina, nor is Radagon officially acknowledged as Messmer's father despite it being seemingly obvious. If I had to guess, I'd say Radagon had not yet fully emerged from Marika, and so Messmer and Melina would have two fathers, but that is definitely in the speculation territory.
- Radagon becomes a separate entity from Marika and gains his own form, which he uses to wage the Liurnian Wars.
- Marika sends Messmer to wage genocide on the Hornsent.
- Godfrey is banished. As per the Law of Regression, Radagon returns to Marika and eventually fuses with her. And the rest is history.
I think that Marika fled the hornsent's lands at a young age, and managed to reach an Eternal City for refuge, only to be mistreated by her fellow Numen and made into a slave soldier, a Sword of Night, just like Jolan and Anna were implied to be from a Nox civilization. This would explain how Marika could have known Alecto and the Black Knife Assassins, as well as how Marika could have developed her fighting skills, since she's the most likely person to have taught Melina how to fight like a Black Knife Assassin. Statues in the Lands Between also depict Marika with a spear, which might indicate that she also trained Messmer.
While Marika's Hammer is probably her own tool, the Nox notably fight with one-handed hammers of a similar size and proportion, so she might have honed her skills with her hammer during her time with the Nox as well. At some point, Marika may have been discovered to be an Empyrean by the Nox, and she thus learned of that status and its significance there, as well as gaining a better awareness of whatever the Nox seemed to be doing with their "Lord of Night" experiments, spells, and rituals.
Ultimately, I feel that Marika escaped and abandoned the Nox, causing the loyal slaves like Alecto to consider this a betrayal, setting the stage for their motive in participating in the Night of the Black Knives. Now a skilled warrior with some knowledge of what being an Empyrean meant, Marika may have sought to contact the Fingers to be chosen as a god, if she wasn't just seeking Great Runes on her own and the Two Fingers noticed her.
From there, Marika might have feigned loyalty to the hornsent civilization, which likely expected her to be a groveling slave per their apparent caste system, so as to access the Gate of Divinity, or she infiltrated Enir-Ilim in something of a parallel to Ranni and the assassins' actions on the Night of the Black Knives. Marika might have invented Radagon to be her Elden Lord at this time, thus making him actually the first Elden Lord of what would become the Golden Order.
Alternatively, Marika already met Hoarah Loux, and probably convinced this "a crown is warranted with strength" warrior to work with or for her by kicking his ass. Heck, maybe she killed him and his remains are in that bag, and Marika was basically showing that she indeed had an Elden Lord to revive (in his own body) so she could become a god. The vessel might not necessarily have to be a different body than the Elden Lord's own, Miquella just didn't want to scour the Wailing Dunes for all the debris of what once were Radahn's feet and most of his lower legs, not to mention how Alexander can potentially take some of his flesh and it eventually ends up with Jar-Bairn.
Anyway, that's my idea of what Marika's timeline might be like. Sorry if this became rambling.
@@Nemo12417 Only have a question for clarity on one of the early details... If Horah Loux was the vessel for Marika's "return of a God, ushered in', would that mean Serosh was the Lord's soul that now inhabits the newly created "Godfrey"? The parallels with the visuals of Miquellla's return as an ushered in God are there, but they aren't exact - nor is the naming convention we see with Mogh's newly Rhadahn inhabited vessel being, basically, Rhadahn.
But that doesn't mean all those details HAVE to line up though, and I definitely like the idea of Horah Loux being present, but not shown in the DLC trailer... Kinda like how the Remembrance of a God and Lord only shows Miquella, but we have to assume the scene/memory is occurring from Rhadahn's POV because of the use of the word "and" in the Remembrance.
@@TheHi-NoteFunClub-BeatsByMike Personally, I suspect the part about the vessel was more for Miquella specifically, since his desired consort was dead and the corpse was internally destroyed by Scarlet Rot, so he needed a new body for Radahn's soul. This wouldn't have applied to Godfrey, who was alive and kicking.
Incidentally, the "god requires a lord" is recurring in Elden Ring. The two demigods who are identified as "Lord" in their boss fights both sought to marry a god (DLC reveal about Mohg being brainwashed aside). Rykkard feeding himself to the serpent is what led to the birth of the man serpent race, and is also reminiscent of the Sunken Valley women in Sekiro feeding themselves to the white serpent in a "marriage" ritual.
You're currently my favourite lore channel.
Thank you so much! Considering the field, that's some very high praise!
Seconded, Vaati is great but I think Goldmask is very good at breaking down nothing but the facts
It took me a few playthroughs to realize that when Ymir said that Miquella shouldn't have felt bad, the blame lay squarely with the mother, he wasn't talking about Marika. Of course, given that he wants to give birth to creepy severed hands, I'm not entirely sure if he can be trusted. One of the first things I noted about his area was that the Cathedral is of what Tarnished Archaeologist has dubbed the Saint and Tree stratum. His general feeling seems to be that this civilization was a direct precursor to Marika's empire which fragmented, and the section in the Leyndell area became the basis for Marika's conquests. But I am pretty sure that the Cathedral was built LONG after Metyr landed. She was the first falling star to hit the Lands Between, after all, and regardless of how you feel about TA's Saint and Tree theory, the Cathedral looks too modern to be built shortly after Metyr arrived.
I read Ymir's lines as a double entendre about both Marika and Metyr! And I definitely agree that the Cathedral looks way too modern and it had to have been built more recently. (The same for Manus Celes, I guess?)
@@garrulousgoldmask I can't prove this, but I read one comment somewhere after the DLC came out speculating that Manus Celeste may have been built for a different purpose than what it currently served and may have even had a different name, but was destroyed when Ranni's Two Fingers crashed into it from above and created the hole in the floor you find it in. This commenter speculated that Metyr may have sent the Two Fingers to do this, since the Greater Will had long since lost contact.
To me the description of Cherishing Fingers spell implied that Ymir is kind of delusional
The Ruins of Rauh was the Tree and Saint stratum.
We going full christian with this one bois.
But in all seriousness i couldn't wrap my head around how Marika ascend with the gate and what she did but this puts it more clearer even if it's speculation
The mark of the beast is gold...hmmm
I really love listening to you speak! You have a great voice and cadence.
Thank you so much!
It's important to note that while the Elden Beast was invoked, it was already in the lands between. The Elden Ring has been the anchor of cosmic forces and life in the Lands between since the age of dragons
Feels like everyone forgets that Placidusax is a literal Elden Lord, meaning post Elden Beast arrival.
19:14 inga/因果 also translates to “karma” or “fate”
It’s a combination of gen in/原因(cause) and kekka/結果(result)
I think the biggest indication Marika standing at the Divinity Gates is also Radagon is not her reddish (supposedly) hair (I think that's just the lighting), but her wearing their famous black dress exactly like Radagon does, bare-chested. So two people ascended at once? Marika became a wessel to her lord (Radagon)?
This makes more sense than his theory. He says Marika was supposed to be the vessel for the God but that's not how the ritual works. The vessel is used by the Lord.
Great point! I also mentioned this in another comment but another point in favor of Radagon as the lord is the fact that he was a seamster and may have been able to weave together the golden threads we see in the trailer to make the Rune of Life.
Why is Marika telling Radagon in Leyndell that he still has to become a god? I think this contradicts your theory
Marika when you meet her in the tree has the dress below her chest. I think the statues and cinematic is just censored so blackguard doesn't see marikas tits.
@@nostalji93 I think this is explained by Metyr being the influence/driving force of Marika performing the ritual at the gate AND how it's performed. Essentially, Metyr hooked her by telling her " do this and YOU become a God", with Marika not only believing, but continuing to believe she actually is a God until she plumbs the depths of "her" order. The shattering of the ring coming about because she discovered the truth of the sacred rite scroll, saw her status of God being in doubt, with Radagon doubling down on fundamentalism and wanting to keep things as they are. All that considered, Marika's words to him take on the meaning: Think you're a God - like I did - tell you what... Let's find out, like for real, together (then, for some reason, her voice starts broadcasting Indiana Jones as she finishes with) I've got nothing else better to do.
🙂
The words "Vessel of the Vision" are used for Marika, but a similar phrase is also used for Miquella in Vers 1.00, calling him the "scion of the Vision" and speaking of how Radagon supported Miquella and his Vision, giving to him Loretta. Would that Vision have been in conflict with Marika's Vision in the original lore? Probably.
My crazy theory is that in vers 1.0 Miquella's Vision would have entailed Chitin and making an age of Insectoid obedience. This would have explained his insect wings, the insect eggs in the Haligtree, and his sister, Malenia.
Miquella would have likely been the stereotypical ant-queen, enforcing an age of peace via stolen hearts, or, as it was, individual willpower.
Contrast the Chitin with the Hornsent, the latter being Keratin.
Personally, I think there was a plan for Miquella to succeed Marika as god but something went awry. (Godwyn getting ganked in the Night of the Black Knives makes the most sense to me.)
And that Bugquella theory actually carries a lot of weight! (Which I suppose is fitting considering how strong ants are.) We also have the Kindred of Rot finding solace in the Haligtree (and taking human forms, a la Moore and Gowry) as well as those ants being mind controlled by the Nox, with particle effects similar to Miquella's Bewitching and Charming Branches.
(And the French translation of Hornsent was incredibly clever!)
@@garrulousgoldmask there is also a lot of supporting evidence for the Chitin vs Keratin dynamic in the dlc. For example, the Man-Flies are Hornsent that have been transformed to possess Chitin carapaces and hair (like flies) and we see that they have lost their horns (keratin). Moreover, only birds, beasts, and humanoids can grow horns, whereas insects, crabs, lobsters, and scorpions do not grow horns. Then we also have Metyr, mother of Fingers, and the fingernail sorceries (fingernails being made of keratin) and we have Lamprey, whose teeth are made of keratin in real life. Hooves, horns, hair, scales, feathers, talons, etc., are all made of keratin. Antlers, in the real world, are made of calcium, whereas in ER they say that the Ancestral buds are "antler-like horns", the distinction allowing the antlers to be made of keratin rather than calcium.
I really do believe that Keratin and Chitin are important to ER.
Oh that is a fascinating comparison! I hadn't realized just how common chitin and keratin were until you laid it all out like that!
@@garrulousgoldmask there is more that bears upon it, too. For instance, the Godskin skin people, and Keratin keeps skin healthy, moist, and youthful. Keratin also matters a lot to hair health and warbraids are important in ER.
My theory is that the Crucible of the Erdtree is magical keratin. When a seed blooms it feeds on keratin as it grows. This also explains why Miquella's discarded Great Rune creates a Sunflower: sunflower seeds are rich in keratin. The Crucible must have been Keratin because wings, hooves, horns, scales, etc, are made of Keratin, and Crucible Knots grew on the SKIN of the Fire Giants (cutaneous horns being made of keratin, too).
Additionally, Chitin composes not only carapaces and insect hair, but FUNGUS, linking it to the Scarlet Rot (mushrooms) and Deathblight (Blight being a fungus, but also it explains why flies grow out of Deathblight). The Spirit Ashes of the Kindred of Rot even states explicitly thst they are "chitinous".
@@garrulousgoldmask my other reply was auto-removed. Just wanted to say that Chitin composes insects, crustaceans, and fungus (mushrooms, blight) and that Miquella's discarded rune spawned a Sunflower, their seeds being rich in Keratin.
Fascinating! You seem very well-studied in Christian doctrine. A few interesting parallels to Christian symbolism:
You pointed out that the three parties involved in the Secret Rite Scroll are the Vessel (Marika/Mohg), a Lord (Radagon?/Radahn), and a God (Elden Beast/Miquella). I'm not sure if it's meant to parallel the triune nature of God, in the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But man is, in a way, also a three-fold creature at his best: Man, Woman, and God, in relationship with each other. Just more speculation, though. But the requirement of having three parties was interesting.
Another interesting part about Miquella's journey is the shedding of his flesh in the pursuit of atonement: it's Christ-like in that it's supposed to be self-sacrificial (yet simultaneously self-exulting, as you point out); and yet, the eschewing of the body is also a little gnostic, and maybe even Buddhist (not well-read enough to know). "Everything mundane is bad" is a surprisingly common thought for spiritual schools.
I believe Christianity does not support that thought, and it's interesting that perhaps the shedding of his own "humanity" symbolized by his flesh in the pursuit of god-hood led to Miquella becoming less and less Kindly, and more and more Sinister. By the end of the journey, he had become more tyrannical than the Order he sought to distance himself from; an ironic, and yet not unexpected fate, if the history of our own world is anything to go by. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but heaven is full of good works", or something like that. Miquella intended the best; but his actions belie his intent. Instead of covering the sins of the people, he added to it.
Poetic, and quite an eloquent story on how thoroughly gargantuan the task of redemption is; how impossibly treacherous; how easy to think we are doing good, that we might even be able to atone, and then to fall so catastrophically short.
I love your videos! Too long of a week to do anything but enjoy (and engagement 😌)
Oh shit you're a yinzer too hell yeah brother
Definitely gonna be looking forward to that video on Marika’s ‘betrayal’! You can certainly make the argument that the betrayal came with Messmer genociding the Hornsent, although would that really be a ‘betrayal’ if the Hornsent never wanted the Shamans to obtain Godhood?
Or, given how in the Japanese text, ‘Miko’ is used instead of Shaman, and with the Hornsent carrying cursed blood (based on how most turn into Man-Flies and were freed from their curses, plus the Blood Fiends), as well as the spiritual practices of Miko/Shrine Maidens, could the betrayal be that the Hornsent were actually trying to use the Shamans to create a pure Miko/Vessel that would cure them of their cursed heritage, but instead of delivering them their salvation, Marika instead turned against them?
It would make a bit more sense as a betrayal if the Hornsent were hoping Marika would be their savior/Christ figure, but instead she condemned them. After all, the Shamans were stuffed into jars to become ‘saints’. Why would the Hornsent do this if they weren’t seeking salvation of some kind?
Also, what are your thoughts on the mysterious body Marika pulls the golden threads from in the story trailer? Was it snake-skin or Godskin? Was that figure a snake or woman? Do you think it might have been the Gloam-Eyed Queen (given the weird instance of night/dusk in Enir-Ilim even though it is never nighttime in-game)?
Excellent video!
Thank you so much! For Messmer being the betrayal, I think it's fascinating that there was a period after Marika became a god and the Hornsent weren't purged yet. Marika defeated the Fire Giants, who threatened the Erdtree, but also worshipped the fell god, who "haunted the sagas of the Hornsent," according to the Furnace Visage. So by defeating one of the most reviled enemies for the Hornsent, I could easily see them thinking Marika was their Savior. Only for Messmer and his Furnace Golems to show up, adorned with depictions of the fell god...
Re: the shamans, Mirko has the best take I've seen! medium.com/@Mirko_LaMi/shadow-of-the-erdtree-lost-in-translation-eng-0e7701104786
And after I did a collab with TimDiggity, I do think Marika is reaching into a snake eye in the story trailer.
As for the gold thread, I think Radagon was necessary to weave it together to make the Rune of Life, since he has a Golden Needle that make alterations for the Demigods' attire. So I see that as another point to Radagon being the lord in the vessel/lord/god set-up.
@@garrulousgoldmaskOh! I completely forgot about the Fire Giants and how the Hornsent feared them. With how Messmer’s Furnace Golems carry a Fire Giant head, this helps make Messmer’s assault as a betrayal make much more sense! Excellent observation!
And wow! I’m so glad you shared that article, because it was truly amazing and well-written! I only wish I discovered this sooner!
@@agopessimist1335 The Dancing Lion is weak against fire, and fire seems a logical weakness for any nature themed creatures, which the Hornsent as worshippers of the Crucible definitely were.
Metyr has wrinkled flesh and an eye. It also is the only other thing directly connected to the greater will besides the elden beast. The beast requires a vessel. I think she took the beast from the eye of metyr
The hornsent have statues of marika with her head cut. That means that before the betrayal they worshiped her. Makes sense that she became a god first, and then betrayed them with Messmers war
that's odd, Roderika still has on her hood in your mage's world
Ahh, good eye! That's actually from the 1.00 version. (I also kinda prefer Roderika wearing her hood in that moment.)
I think that the elden beast needs to be talked about further. The fact that 'god slain' only appears upon its death almost makes me assume that yes marika is just a vessel and that she was never actually a god, her sin taking on the title of god despite being just a vessel. The scene at the gates of divinity is calling the elden beast as the rite mentions and the trailer depicts.
Not merely taking the title of god, but probably attempting to subdue the elden beast and imprison it. The elden ring is housed in Radagons body and looks like it has caused the damage, burning him from inside out with its power. The Erdtree may not be locking everyone else out as much as locking the elden beast in as Marikas attempt to capture its power. Marika’s shattering might have let in all of the outer gods accidentally because she opened it the “door” to capture one and steal its power.
So, I'm cautious about saying this, as it might set off a flame war. Feel free to delete this comment if people aren't being polite. Anyways, plenty of people have pointed out the parallels between Miquella and Jesus, but I'd note that rather than portray Miquella as a failed Jesus, Elden Ring seems to reject the idea altogether. It's no secret that Miyazaki likes Berserk, which is heavily inspired by Nietzche (the "God is dead" guy), and both Ranni and Melina give Nietzche inspired speeches at various points in the game. And Miquella's methods seem parallel to the Christian concept of being born again in Jesus. The Tarnished ultimately rejects Miquella. Not because he is incapable of fulfilling his dream (though you could interpret it that way) but because the game rejects the philosophy that peace should be brought about by having one's being repurposed to a higher power. As Ansbach said, "make a world for men, not gods".
It's also worth noting that in some denominations of Christianity, Miquella's methods aren't anathema to the theology. According to the Lutheran and Calvinist concepts of Grace, humans are so utterly depraved that they inherently will not embrace Christianity, and so the Holy Spirit has to override their wills (no, consent is not needed, as depraved humans never WOULD consent). The "I" in the Calvinist acronym TULIP stands for "Irresistible Grace".
That's an interesting detail about concepts of the Holy Spirit. Adding to the Jesus discussion, Christ is notably both god and man, but Miquella seems to be actively discarding everything that makes him who he is, arguably destroying what makes him "man", in his quest to become a god. In that regard, Miquella could be seen as a failed Jesus due to casting off such a key detail rather than having both.
Alas, I am returned to maybe learn more about the wanton strumpet past deeds
What an accurate definition of Marika as a character, a vicious, treacherous scumbag who didn't even feel any normal maternal feelings towards her own children...
04:05 I’m not calling her anything else from now on
@@timdiggity that caught me so off guard 😭
Thank you for pointing out the difference in interpretations amongst denominations. As a Christian, my biggest pet peeve is when a contentious or not-universally accepted doctrine gets treated like it’s an objective fact about Christianity. It’s not usually a big deal, but it can cause some issues when the community pulls from very different schools of thought
Just found your channel, I really enjoyed the video! Messmer and Marika's relationship has always intrigued me. Like we can't forget he did commit brutal crusades, just because his devotion to his mother was so strong. But I love the hints of him just doing it for Marika, and really personally caring about it. When you enter his fight, he seems like a guy who's told to get off his break, as a tarnished walked in and he has duty to fulfill. Until he realizes that his mother did betray him long ago, having such a lightless creature be groomed to become Elden Lord.
10:45 Well played
Love this video, I've had many of the same thoughts and many different. Just always great to hear everyone's different thought processes.
I've had a very similar idea for quite a while now mentioned in a few of my videos. I believe Marika was both vessel and God due to housing the Elden Ring within her. It works well with your suggestion here that the Elden Beast is the God, as housing it would ascend her to godhood.
Great minds think alike! Marika being a vessel who becomes a god just makes so much sense to me, especially since it would reinforce the themes of identity and a fractured self (pun absolutely intended). And as a few commenters pointed out, this could also explain why Marika tells Radagon he is yet to become a god, even though they are one person at that point.
(Tbh I have to admit I haven't been keeping up with your videos, since otherwise I definitely would have given you a shout-out!)
@@garrulousgoldmask nah our ideas are similar but definitely unique, no need for a shout out haha. It's cool to see people in the community coming to similar conclusions.
Love the lore vids, mate! Keep it up!
Thank you so much!
The Grandam had some of the best voice lines in the game. Not only did the voice actor nail it but the lore implications from her were the biggest in the DLC.
I had a similar thought in regards to marika being a vessel but from a more norse perspective. Practitioners of seider were like shamans but made contact with spirits via possession. I would also recommend reading Anglo Saxon (old English) poetry as it describes biblical stories with a Saxon twist. One being a dream of the rood which describes the crucifixion from the perspective of the cross which also refers to the cross as a gallows tree.
Another great video. Something about your whole build up leading to your final statements makes me wonder, is From software trying to reintroduce inga to Christianity?
Thank you! So I think it's more along the lines of FromSoft having a syncretic religion that fuses together Buddhism and Christianity. Having played through all of their Soulsbornekiroring titles, it was wild to see that this theme of fusion has been present all the way since Demon's Souls. (Old Monk, QED!)
I think Elden Ring is probably the most sophisticated attempt at combining Buddhism and Christianity. But ofc with Elden Ring, FromSoft also went wild on adding in so many different religious traditions, e.g. Shinto, Norse, Sumerian, Egyptian, Celtic, Hindu, etc.
@@garrulousgoldmask Lol. Heck yeah! All in service to Miyazaki's grand spiritual unification theory. =)
I absolutely love his tidbit at the end, always trying to find new ways to look at things to better understand the truth of what lies within.
"Least genocidal Stellaris player". Random stellaris reference, but guilty.
Really good theory!
Thank you!
Marika looks very masculine when holding up the rune threads
Would love to know the overlap between New Vegas fans and FromSoftware fans.
Really good vid as usual 🥰
Thank you so much!
Finally my only source of accurate lore has released another banger
great work man. thank you for making this
more food for thought, we eating good
your sin is stored in the balls joke made me immediately go "unlike elden ring, where it's stored in the womb" for a couple of reasons. the red spear in marika's womb, as well as the status of all of her children being born cursed, while renalla's are all fine until they fall sometime later.
It also reminds me of a theory i've been thinking about a lot lately. what if Ranni was Godwyn? if the children born of Marika's womb are all cursed, what's to say she didn't use Renalla as a surrogate mother? it would answer the motive for killing godwyn specifically, as well as explain the half death. the associations with children and cuckoos. radagons specific choice of gifts for renalla.
Brilliant!! This is the first time I've heard reference to Christianity in regards to Original Sin. I think that parallel helped me to understand the world of Elden Ring, and why things are the way they are. This assesment is dead on!
As a side note, I also noticed some parallel connecting this concept of the abyssal serpent both in game and theology. There is great serpent cast into the abyss for 1000 years, only to be released (there is a reference between this serpent and the one that tempted Eve). I also see strong parallels between the biblical serpent and its representation of the original sin, and Messmer's base serpent
You've earned my sub 😊
Hey man, I really enjoyed the video! One quick bit of constructive criticism: Could you work on balancing the audio a bit more for when the NPC's talk compared to your voice? It would also be nice if you centered the NPC dialogue in the speakers as well. (For my own videos, I usually have multiple takes where I have the camera centered on the NPC for audio, and other takes for cinematic stuff)
Thanks mate! And those are great tips!
Wow, I didn't realise the parallels to Christianity went this deep! I wonder if part of the reason Beast are Sacred to the Hornsent are because Beast cannot commit Sin, they are untouched by the original sin.
Sidenote - Cardinal Sin is a dope metal song by Powerwolf.
That should help you distinguish between the two concepts of Original Sin and Cardinal Sin in Elden Ring.
Yo! Love your ideas. I'd just like to add that Marika acts as both she which committed the original sin and who "forgave" us through sacrifice. There seems to me no doubt Marika knew what she was getting into by shattering the Elden Ring, and planned to grant grace back unto those who were "pardoned" from the orginal sin. This mirrors closely the Biblical forgiveness of original sin through the (self)sacrifice of jesus (who is equal part God and man.)
Great video! Now, I wonder the following: if Marika is both the vessel and the god, whose soul is Radagon's soul? Maybe some kind of fire giant? Or a fled god (Placidusax's god)?
I think we're basically on the same page here, but I think the end of the story shows us Marika was never a God, and since she only seems to remain in body - like Godwyn - the story of Elden Ring, one way or the other, was about removing the influence of non-corporeal Gods from the world.
All references to Marika's godhood originate from Metyr (via communication to the fingers, then the readers, and on to the populace at large). Metyr, who was revealed to be cut-off from the greater will/flawed/insane/winging EVERYTHING. All of that Marika is a god in truth "knowledge" is, at the very least, suspect, and I believe just outright false BECAUSE of the sacred rite scroll.
Three elements:
Ushering in a God.
A lord.
A vessel.
God: Elden Beast.
Lord: Radagon (Radagon IS Marika)
Vessel: Marika
Feels like Marika was led astray by Metyr (but she eventually questioned what was going on, plumbed the depths of the order, found out it was all fiction, and set the shattering into motion), Metyr completely misunderstood what the divine ritual would accomplish or otherwise saw ushering in the Elden Beast as a way to restore contact with the greater will, and Radagon took full advantage of the situation (choosing Golden Order Fundamentalism after Marika discovered the actual truth, and sided with the God he helped to usher in under false pretenses)...
At least, seems to me.
As to Marika's motivation/the reason why she bought into Metyr's delusion (or possibly, outright lie), totally agree avenging her people could be it - though melding with Radagon to, what she thought was "become a God" strictly for the sake of power is plausible - just as melding with her past love Radagon to restore his soul also seems like it could've been part of her calculus.
P.S. Since Marika wasn't obliterated and remained in the vessel with Radagon, that means Mohg was still in the vessel when Rhadahn's soul got added. Which also explains why Miquella chose Rhadahn - he needed a lord strong enough to drop galaxies on heads/literally stop the cosmos above to keep Mohg in check. Though, maybe, the original soul inhabitant of the vessel gets replaced over time - which kind of explains why Marika just seems to be gone at the end of the base game. I think the Radagon is Marika twist might also suggest, since Marika seemed to just cease to exist over time, "grace" is the rememant of Marika that she created as part of her "shattering plan" to ensure her original sin was "fixed". The original sin specifically being: performing the divine ritual in the first place based on Metyr's influence instead of following the sacred rite scroll. She didn't fully understand what she was doing, thinking SHE was becoming the God instead of, really, becoming the jar, so to speak (meaning, that she was just the vessel/crucible, NOT the god being born from it).
Again - just how it feels to me. I think the reasoning is sound, but, like with all fiction, since I didn't create the story, its just the theory that makes sense to me, and its only exactly that... A theory.
Apologies - forgot to add one point.
DLC story trailer - what is missing from the picture of Marika at the divine gate? Literally any other "living" body to act as a vessel for the Lord's soul that would accompany the God being ushered in.
One of the only things we know for sure about the lore is the fact that she became a god. They even made a video showing us the exact moment she ascended into godhood at the divine gate. We also get confirmation of this at the end of the game when Miquella does the exact same thing at the exact same location and ascends into godhood
@@Cbrunning849 Roger that - and what I'm saying is that the DLC calls that thing we know "for sure" into question, due to the things I pointed out in my comment. The vid this comment was left on even makes the point that at the gate, Marika didn't achieve godhood, but only attained it at the end of the base game. THE biggest evidence against Marika attaining godhood like Miquellla - where is the "vessel" with Marika at the gate? If she became a God similar to Miquella at the gate, where is her "Rhadahn" in that trailer? Is it whatever she pulls the Golden strands from? Ok, let's say it is - when did Miquella do that with Rhadahn? If anything, that detail makes the two rituals different.
All references to her Godhood originate from Metyr via the fingers, and the DLC tells us Metyr was fundamentally flawed. That means "Godhood confirmed"? The DLC flipped the script of what we knew "for sure".
I'm not saying I'm right, but I would ask you watch the vid we are commenting on again, and maybe go through the points I made again, and then ask yourself where is the other person, the vessel for the LORD in the trailer showing Marika become a God? And say she did become a God - who is performing the ritual to usher her in - is she each of the 3 elements outlined in the sacred rite scroll? If so - why is the Elden Beast part of the conversation? Shit, why even IS the Elden Beast? The reveal of Elden Beast at the end of the base game came out of NOWHERE - and the DLC kind of defined its role/gave context to the message of "God Slain".
Again, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying Marika's story might just be a bit more tragic now - jar shaman put through NOTHING but pain, is told by an incomprehensible mass of fingers that she can become a God - but ends up being the "jar" for someone else to inhabit... THAT'S one hell of a compelling story.
@@TheHi-NoteFunClub-BeatsByMike Perhaps those strands are meant to be the vessel? Maybe Marika is holding them aloft to prove that she has something to begin the ritual.
@@nightscout9979 Perhaps for sure. The question then becomes "who's Lord soul inhabits the vessel?" I like that question.
I am dreading the Elden Ring movie/series. Some things should just not be adapted. You'll probably get some person who has never played the game or read the lore who will try to turn it into Game of Thrones.
15:45 Wait, I remember hearing that all tarnished are descendants of Godfrey. Also the curse they could be referring to here is the "Grace of Gold" itself. In From Software games, they eventually see that inability to die as curse and those in the Grace of Gold is under the law of The Golden Order which stripped away death and hidden it in Faram Azul.
My curiosity of what Marika looked like and all you see first is her feet😂
"Sin is stored in the balls"
10/10, no notes. This is peak theorizing
But seriously, very good video and I enjoy your theories. I wonder where you place Godfrey in all of this. If you have another video about this that I missed that's on me, but since he was her first Elden Lord I still think her ascension parallels Miquella's almost one to one. Revealing Miquella's ascension is Fromsoft telling us how Marika ascended as well, and that would mean that Godfrey's soul is housed within a vessel(a hornsent vessel, imo). At least that's my read on the situation
Thank you so much! And I'm actually working on a video about Hoarah Loux and Serosh! Still fine-tuning my theory crafting but I definitely agree that there could be a parallel between him and Marika, though I would see a bit more metaphorically: Hoarah Loux is the "vessel" for Godfrey the lord, who in turn ushers in a powerful beast, Serosh. And of course Miquella's mane is a clear callback to Serosh.
Yayyyyy Garrulous videoooooooo ♡♡♡
I do wonder
If like I imagine the great tree is (one side of the equation ranting about how its mistranslated as the kanji used for greattree and erdtree are the same, the other side pointing to several items and descriptions yet to be changed referencing a greattree such as root resin) that it is in fact column a AND b, that the erdtree came from the greattree. The erdtree grew from it to the point it's grafted or intertwined with the greattrees roots that sustained it.
Perhaps this original sin is of the same nature.
Perhaps the original sin was the sharing of ideas, the knowledge (see images on front of obelisks at moghwyn- shown as a literal sharing of fruit- or the front of the tree sentinel shield) and this knowledge involved fire- Perhaps even burning trees, and the power gained as a result.
Thus does new life grow from death,
and from death, one obtains power.
- Ancestral Spirit's Horn
Yayyyyy Scum Mage Infa comment
@garrulousgoldmask Speaking of numen I am often perplexed now, with the additional of the shadow realm, if many of the item descriptions / character selection that refer to numen as descendants from another land / world are simply referring to the now annexed shadowlands? Like if a single continent had a part break off into a smaller island, and your parents just happen to be on the small new island side of that divide, you may now be of a different land and be called something else, but hail from another land / world (that is in fact still technically the same place, a part of the original- like the shadow lands is a part or was a part of the lands between)
The video I am currently finishing off is about the great tree. I just checked out that portion of your video and we agree on all of those points, however I had NO idea of the addition of that information to the deeproot maps! That's another silver bullet ty, sir! I'll be sure to credit ♡
Ever brilliant indeed.
Heh, I'm also thinking that the Land of Numen just refers to the Land of Shadow. I just checked and it is wild that the term "Numen" doesn't show up in the DLC at all...
On that note, I've also been wondering if all of the depictions we've seen of giant ships were actually misinterpretations of the stone coffins in the Cerulean Coast. (Kind of like how dinosaur bones were seen as "proof" of dragons existing, etc.) So the descendants may have thought they came from giant ships, but were actually from the same area the whole time.
Ooh, sounds like a great topic-can't wait! And I'm always glad to share the daintiest morsels of wisdom
...\T/...
@garrulousgoldmask I have a little theory that "numen" is just new nomenclature they (shaman) assumed after the separation of the shadowlands and burial of their past. A way to move on, like 'New Man' hahaha since the eternal cities seemed to be in the business if making new men (I imagine since they are possibly unable to give birth conventionally)
Yes the boats are very interesting... I'm of two minds about it at present but I have a theory I am following for my next big video that I think is pretty sound 😁 the timeline is exhausting, I know you can relate to that lol
👍 Well done!
Thank you!
More on Miquella and the repercussions of Marika's sin, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing when seperating from St. Trina as he needed to leave behind his kindness for the remaining tarnished and beings of the lands between. The "egg" of sorts has it's twiggy arm stretched upward completeing the pose Miquella assumes atop Radahn. My theory is that this is St. Trina's arm as we can also notice a single hand poking out next to her face. She was transposed in dormant slumber to be born again in the land of spirits since their body would be no more, burned in the ghostflames. In this same manner we can interact with Melina, Torrent, and Ranni among others watching them fade in and out of existence. Perhaps even "Between" is quite literally between life and death where we have not experienced the "Halig Land" or whatever it may be called save for Elphael and what we know as the Halig Tree. There are after all three intertwining rings that make up the logo of the game. It's a stated fact that Godwyn and Ranni have "died" at least halfway so maybe that gives them a different agency as Godwyn has become part of the ecosystem attempting to baturally reintroduce death to the Lands Between. Ranni is quite adept at soul transferance at least her own. I almost wish finding the death root was more integral because it would make more sense how Gurranq regains his death powers which with him being Marika's "shadow" Maliketh adds up to me that he too hails from the Land of Shadow. Thanks for coming to my unorganized TED talk ✌️
4:30 It seems a bit improbable that the Elden Beast would have arrived this late in the timeline, since it is this beast that became the Elden Ring*, and we can see the ER was already present in Farum Azula, in an age far more ancient than anything happening at the Gate of Divinity in the trailer.
* : see "Elden Stars" item description. Confirmed by the EB wound when we fight it, which is the one inflicted by Marika when she struck the Elden Ring. It is also explained that the EB was sent by the Greater Will as a golden star, not invoked or called (though the item description uses the dreaded "it is said that", so mb take it with a pinch of salt).
Love the accent. You're from Brooklyn but not, had a friend in middle school w/ that cadence.
Remember ascension of marika is really similar to Griffith from berserk. Betrayal for hornsent and shaman villagers. Seduction for the multiple lords that marika entice with
Using Joshua Graham for the gospel passages is a stroke of gaming genius.
Men, you really is the Goldmask, this theory video is soo good, full of information that make more sense than the game's lore, we need more people that dissect the game like you, i subscribe for more 🤩 and in the dragon lord description, it is said in japanese that the old god of placidusax was gone, not fleed, i think that Marika kill the other god, and with Maliketh being a beast clergyman, i think the two made a trap to kill the ancient goddess, is that why Maliketh say's that Marika betray him, after all he do for her, Marika just use Maliketh to slay a god, and imprison the death run inside him, tormenting him for ages, that make sense when we put Maliketh in the same reigh of the Dragon, like he was an important priest or something in the age of the dragons, and i think that the old god was (MY THEORY) The Gloam Eyed Queen, she was an Empyrean, an Queen and have the power of the rune of death, just someone who was a God or slay a god, has the power of the runes, and the GEQ has this priests like the godskin Apostle and Noble, and she is a snake being too, people has see his image in the godskin peeler, this can make an connection with the dragons she being an snake, but also the Gloam Eyed Queen can be another candidate in the same age as Marika, and Marika kill her because she was dangerous, killing gods, and maybe is she who has killed the old god of placidusax, i hate that fromsoftware leave so loose ends in the story, that make we create a lot of theory and is fun, but we can never knew the true story behind.
"When Messmer became the least genocidal Stellaris player."😂😂😂
Fire video
I interpreted the god being slayed after the Elden Beast boss fight to be Radagon since Marika turns back to her female self.
He did turn into the sacred relic sword which looks a lot like the fingerslayer blade. It does read "remains of a god who should have lived eternal". And also seems to put Radagon in his iconic T pose we can see at the churches of Marika. In the same way the fingerslayer blade is fashioned from a corpse I think the Elden Beast did that to Radagon's corpse. So what was left is just Marika
The Remembrance is clearly of the Elden Beast though, so it's probably the god that was slain. Radagon's probably dead too, but he doesn't get the separate notification. Maybe Marika's dead as well, and putting her head back on her body only enables her remains to work like Enia's body and the Twin Maiden Husks do.
Regarding the Secret Rite Scroll ritual's need for a vessel, isn't that to house the spirit of the Elden Lord? If Marika was the vessel, neither she nor the Elden Beast would be the god in this equation. Also, based on how Miquella's plan works, the vessel might need to be dead and basically a husk, removing Marika's soul from the picture. There may be a difference between the Elden Beast's godhood and an Elden Ring-wielding god too.
Regarding Marika's intent on Miquella becoming a god, the Capital Outskirts "echo" of Marika is as follows:
"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved.
Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord.
Be it a God.
But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken.
Amounting only to sacrifices..."
From this, it seems that Marika has no issue with her Empyrean children trying to become a god, as it serves her goal of someone becoming strong enough to kill the Elden Beast. In fact, if an Empyrean doesn't become a god, they'll be cut down by someone who does walk the path that leads to killing the Elden Beast.
While a Site of Grace with guidance that points to Enir-Ilim can only be reached after Miquella's Great Rune shatters, we can infer from Leda's notes that Miquella has already accessed the tower when the DLC begins. For that matter, Leda probably brings Miquella Mohg's body early on. As such, Miquella has all the means to become a god well before his Great Rune shatters, the event that probably marks him using the Gate of Divinity. Marika likely just wants to determine who's the best suited for killing the Elden Beast.
As to Marika's motives for killing the Elden Beast, rather than redemption, she might just want revenge. Whether Marika was told false promises to make her become a god, the Elden Beast failed to fulfill genuine promises, or it tried to control Marika, she certainly seems to direct her ire toward it. We know that Marika is a very vengeful person, so the Elden Beast might be the target, regardless of whether Marika herself could be killed by her plan.
While curses are attributed to Marika, Roderika seems to just be referring to the Tarnished being, well, the Tarnished, something Marika actively did rather than it being inherited. Not everyone in the Golden Order is a god or demi-god either, and it doesn't seem like Marika would have been distributing any of her flesh and blood to meld with people to boot.
For what it's worth, the Hornsent Grandam doesn't call Marika a "wanton strumpet" in the Japanese script, but that detail of the English recording session could still be relevant if it doesn't clash with anything in the Japanese text. The Grandam might also see Messmer's soldiers as Marika's figurative children, serving Marika as a god, or she's just talking trash in general. Ancient texts could get quite colorful with insults.
Thanks for another insightful video! I also really liked things such as Midra's cutscene playing in reverse to "put a pin in" a topic and the quick cuts of what Marika's upbringing was like. I'm glad to see someone else mention how the open gate in the DLC's Story Trailer resembles the view when looking at the star or nebula in the Elden Beast's arena! Perhaps the Gate of Divinity leads to the Elden Beast's arena, and the area itself can change an Empyrean into a god, since the DLC can be done even after the Elden Beast is defeated. I also wonder if that star or nebula might be the Greater Will, though if it is, then that might not match with how the Greater Will has seemingly abandoned the Lands Between or is attending to other worlds.
The Joshua Graham AI Bible quotes were an interesting way to handle quoting scripture, though I dislike AI voices emulating people. Also, isn't Augustine's name pronounced "Awe-gus-teen"? Anyway, thanks again for this video, and your one about Miquella's Great Rune!
the fingers also call marika "the vision's vessel"
I get the feeling there is a sense of innevitability to the entire history of Elden Ring. A world where the Greater Will required vassals to act through, power vacuums after the decline of the Ancient Dragons, the cruelties of the powerful all leading to the same cycles of people being oppressed as everyone fights for power, with Godhood within reach and so necessitating its pursuit
Me gusta la teoria donde se dice que hora loux traiciono a los cornamentados y ayudo a marika a convertirse en diosa. Pues los caballeros crucibles lo siguieron a el y tinene mucho que ver con la torre y los otros guerreros del lugar.
My thoughts: Marika's not the vessel, Radagon is. There are clear physical differences between them when they switch, so there's likely something about their fusion that keeps certain "parts" exclusive to one.
Marika successfully ascended to godhood by making Radagon her lord and her Shaman biology resulted in the differences between her and Miquella's lords. Or, perhaps, there was a weird side-effect of having both the lord and god inhabit the same body. Or OR, she's both vessel and true god at the same time because her Shaman flesh allowed her to "meld harmoniously" with the lord inhabiting her. Instead of her body housing Radagon alone, they share it.
Then there's always the possibility that there are multiple ways to become a god, even if you're using the gates at Enir-Ilim, and Miquella's just using a different method.
The theory about the betrayal is that Marika was on the side of the hornsent before she betrayed them. Marika was what the hornsent wanted, a saint made from their jar who can ascend into godhood. When she became a god, she betrayed them for obvious reasons. Her people were used as experiments to create a god. Wonder why the hornsent thought that was a good idea.
The entire purpose of Miquella’s ascension is to reject the way Marika created her order. It wouldn’t make sense for him to use the same secret rite. The most obvious thing that Messmer keeps company is the serpent, which Marika personally sealed within his body with an eye seal. You don’t “keep company” with a scroll halfway down a tower. In the garden of eden, a serpent tempted eve to commit the original sin. The nature of marika’s sin itself is still up for debate though
This makes me think Radagon did this ritual as well. Marika did like Radahn to Mohg. Took the Beast into herself as a vessel, then became a God. Radagon performed the same thing after exploring the knowledge of the Numen and Nox. It's why Radagon has not yet BECOME Marika. I think the Runes used to all be sepparate. I think GEC and the Godskins killed all the old gods and gathered all the runes. GW sent the Elden Beast when it was the right time, and it took in the runes and forced them into a circular order, the Elden Ring. I don't think the symbol in Farum Azula is the "Elden Ring." I think it is a sumbol of all of the runes and their harmony trickling down and taking root in the world, creating harmony with eveyrthing.
The only thing about this theory that throws it off for me is the fact that the vessel is used by the Lord's soul, not to house the God. The Secret Rite scroll specifically says "the Lord's soul will require a vessel". You said Marika should have been the vessel for the Elden Beast but that's not how it works.
Sure, but the lord is required to usher in a god's return. I see the Secret Rite Scroll like a 3-story building: the lord is the second floor required for the third floor (i.e. the god) and is itself built upon the first floor (i.e. the vessel). So the first floor/vessel is necessary for both floors/the lord and the god.
Good work
Thank you!
Great video! My man, I gotta know your thoughts on the seduction!!! When is that video dropping?
I've always felt like Marika wanted to die. She found out what St Trina already knew, that godhood is a prison. She colluded with Ranni and merked Godwyn as a mercy, because she knew he was an empyrean and the most likely to ascend after her. She also knew he was fiercely loyal to the Golden Order she had now become desperate to destroy.
If Marika worked with Ranni for the Night of the Black Knives, I doubt that Ranni would cover for her. Ranni openly admits to being the mastermind and behind it all, and later gifted something she created in the aftermath of that to Rykard. Additionally, with Ranni's deep love for Rennala and clearly implied hatred for Marika after Radagon's divorce, Ranni would have every reason to expose Marika's kin-slaying instead.
Momcest with Godefroy
GOATfroy, the lore Michael Zaki doesn't want you to know!!
Hot take:
It is both Original Sin AND Causality.
The original sin brought forth disparity, separation. Before all things were one. Death fed Birth, which grew to Life, which faded into Death, to start the cycle anew. Marika brought the ideas into the Lands Between by drawing the thread and pulling down the Elden Beast.
This starts the cycle of Lords and the Elden Ring.
The Cycle of Causality, an eternal ring that wheels on. Causality is the entire game. Every ending except two leads to the next turn of the wheel. Only two lead to either the destruction of Marika and the Elden Ring, while the rest merely amend the rules of the next cycle.
Frenzied Flame and Ranni.
Can you do a video on the CRUCIBLE OR EVEN THE STORY OF THE DRAGONS and Placidusax???
I had been toying with a video about the fell god!
There have been a ton of great videos about the dragons so I don't think I have too much to add there. But I do have a short video on why I think Metyr was Placidusax's god!
I think the "beginning sin" much more simple.
Marika killed the previous god and took Order from her.
This god of the Hornsent would, like the rest of their culture, be obsessed with death.
And as the previous bearer of the Elden Ring, would have had her own Elden Lord.
(As it would have to be a Queen, as all gods are Queens... For Lords are the husbands to gods.)
It's the Gloameyed Queen.
Her Lord was Placidusax.
She created the Gates of Ascension (as we saw them new and bloody for Marika, but calcified for us).
And she ruled with Destined Death, dominating the Hornsent and their culture.
Her favored weapon even being of the sacred spiral of her palace: Enir Elim.
Godhood is indeed a prison... One without a gaoler...
My theory is that the one who was in control all along is "Radagon" and not "Marika." Even the one who did most of the wars in the lands between is Radgon and not Marika.
Maybe Marika has some influence on Radagon, but naturally a male is stronger physically and mentally than a female, and remember they are in one body so you can imagine the conflict between them. That's why the only plan that comes to Marika's mind is the "tarnished" and then broke the Elden ring, even if that will cost her life just for her to escape this prison. But hold on one minute. Who is Radagon? .. My theory is that Radagon is a Titan who lived at the time of Marika when she was at the Shaman village. At first, he had a hammer and a red hair, and many items tell us that Radagon hated his red hair because it looked like Titan. Another theory Radagon doesn't have any childreen from Marika; his only childreen are from Rennala (Radhan, Rykard, and Ranni), and you will notice Radhan and Rykard are so big physically, like titans, and Ranni's body is also in her origin body but she was a effected by her mother's genes.
If you go to the church when Melina tells us that in this place Marika told Godfery to go to a far place and die as heroes with his men, the statue in the church is the statue of Radagon and not Marika; in other words, Radagon didn't agree to the marriage between Marika and Godfrey. That's why he forced Marika to send him away so he could always stay in control of Marika because he doesn't want another lord in control of Marika. and you will notice that even Mohg and Godrick were banned under the city of Lyendall. Some say this is because Marika hated the omen that looks like Hornsaint, but this theory is false because Marika could kill them since they were babies, but no, she kicked them out under the city of Lyendall so Radagon wouldn't hurt them as he did to her husband, Godfery.
Okay, how about Miquela, Melina, and Malenia? Who is their father? Well, the grandmother of the hornsaint in the DLC described Marika as a “who slept with different men,” so their father is another man and not Radagon, and Miquella doesn’t look like Radagon. and their father was also an Empyrean.
Even when Marika broke the elden ring, Radagon tried to fix it. That is a big sign that there is a conflict between the two sometimes, and only sometimes Marika comes back to her consciousness. That's why she can't speak to us even when we meet her inside the erd tree because she is only a vessel like Mohg who can't do anything to bring himself back physically. That's why when we fight her, she disappears, and Radagon replaces her as Radhan replaces Mohg.
But you might ask when did Marika and Radagon become one? Well, my theory, it happened at the time when she was in the shaman village and they met there because if you place the shadow tree map and the Lands between map, the shaman village will be close to the mountain of the titans.
My theory is that Marika and Radagon met together with Metyr Mother of Finger. Radagon was seeking godhood for power to serve the greater well, but Marika was seeking help for her people; that was the only thing on her mind at that after what she experienced from the hornsaint, but the greater well knows that Marika wants to be a god for her people only, and since she's a shaman and Empyrian, and the same with Radagon, they decided to mix together to become one for the ritual at the divnity gate, and the plan was that Radagon would be the vessel and Marika would be the god, but at the last moment the greater will reversed the process and made Marika the vessel and Radagon a god because he's more fit to the greater will's intentions. And also, Radagon and Marika are in one body, but they can also seperate, but I think this is Radagon's ability because when Radagon married Rennala, Marika was married to Godfery. At this time, Radagon had a plan with Rennala, but when Radagon saw Godfery taking control, he divorced Rennala and came back immediately to Leyndall City to kick Godfrey and ban him.
One last thing to mention is that the night of the black night might be Radagon's plan through his daughter Ranni to kill the son of Godfrey Godweyn because he might be a threat to Radagon and the greater will.
This is only a theory; I might be wrong.
One thing that's missing from this is the Gloam-eyed Queen. How does she fit into all of this? Is she the snake that tempted Merika or was it the other way around? 👀☕
You're the first person whom ive heard consider that Marika might have been the one to be seduced in that opening story. And I think there is some valid reason to consider that. But if she is the 'victim' of the seduction, then certainly she is also the 'victim' of the betrayal. That betrayal could well be that divinity is like a prison, as we've heard it for miquella, or perhaps simply that divinity wasn't as advertised to Marika. (Subject to the influence of the elden beast, cursed offspring, death still was a part of the ring at that point too, not to mention the state we find her at the end of the game)
Either the original sin was Marika taking the crucible away (and turning it into her Erdtree), OR her seducing the Abyssal Serpent (only for it to get killed and stripped of it' s grace). Messmer was born with a Snake inside his body. That means his father was ... ?
There's something interesting about the secret rite scroll underlining a lord's SOUL.
"A lord will usher in a god's return,
and the lord's soul will require a vessel."
In the DLC we have:
The Lord - Radahn
The Vessel - Morgott's body
The God - Miquella
At Marika's time we have:
The Vessel - Marika
The Lord - ?
The God - Elden Beast/Greater Will
It could be that the betrayal in the cinematic was her not acting as the Vessel, not accepting the soul of a Lord inside her but acting as BOTH Vessel AND Lord and thus deciving the Hornsent. Perhaps she even killed that Lord. And she ushered in not a Hornsent-Approved-God but her own selected one (likely informed by the Two Fingers/Metyr).
But then, because she didn't have a "lord", it created a need for one, which is why Godfrey, Radagon, and Tarnished become Elden Lords, to balance everything out and enact her will. As Elden Lords we already have our own vessels (Godfrey and the Tarnished are Grace-reanimated corpses). Maybe Radagon ( after he becomes the Elden Lord) merges with Marika, trying to perfect this disbalance: so that there's a Vessel, a Lord's soul AND a god all in one.
The fly in the ointment of the Golden Order, one that is based on rhe conception of Marika being the one true god, is false BECAUSE it was created when: Vessel+Lord Marika. However after merging it's no longer true, Radagon has become God too but the GO never updated.
@@miomio6890 Elden Beast is absolutely NOT the God of Marika, Marika IS the God of the Golden Order
Great video!
Literally only rule is dont be a jagoff and youre doing it. If you leave any more comments the only things they should say are sorry, how you would feel if somebody made fun of you like that, or how youd feel if somebody made fun of your child or family member like that. This person made a 20 minute video that obviously took a lot of effort and you watched it and thought "what if i left a comment that i would never say in person" because if you really go around making fun of people like that youre sick. Grow up or get out and let people enjoy their videos
Kinda sad you gotta offset the lil cock by makin fun of a speech impediment, huh ?
@@jackspielman5488I belive you took it too seriously, it isn't that deep but it still is bad
You're right. I'll delete it.
youre right, maybe i was a little mean im sorry for that. I was just upset but im glad i got my point across and that this a good community
I didn't know what purpose I read the bible back then...now I know my purpose
FS has always been good at revealing the right amount and leaving just enough open to speculation, but imo not with ER.
I think FS really messed up by not having dlc and back story for both Messmer and Melina. Nobody can resolve this story because of the missing fundamentals. I.e. the dragon god and it's disappearance, the nature of the original ascension, the differences with the abnormal ascension and the insight into Nox leaders including the GEQ and her involvement with Placidusax and the dragon god. Non of this will upset alternate endings. Explain these and I think the level of speculative opportunities will be just right. There will still be plenty of avenues fans minds can go down. Don't explain these and the story remains chaotic.
im confused in which timeline Radagon came into the picture, was it before godhood or after. or was it at the time when Godfrey still was in the picture? What I suspect is that she needed Godfrey to win power of armies to become god, and then she needed Radagon to escape it since she needed to birth a kindling maiden to burn the tree.
I also think Melinas motivation of burning the tree is that she wanted to free Messmer from the prison of shadow and avenge the mother for betraying everyone.
Joshua Graham version of the Bible = peak Christianity! GG Goldmask!
heh. jarring truth. heh. good one.
Honestly can’t believe it took me this long in my life to realize that the reason god cast out Adam and Eve because it was afraid of being overthrown by what it created. Not just because of eating from the tree of knowledge.
It explains why god hated humans so much in the old testament
Thr original Sin is fire he literally lives with it
Cool vid.
So what I understand you're implying is that the trailer shows the birth of the Golden Order. But in another video you mentioned that you believe Marika is the Gloam-Eyed Queen. So I see a bit of a problem reconciling the two. If Messmer and Melina were born before Marika approached the gate of divinity the gates of divinity that would mean Messmer was born before Marika became a god and thus Messmer wouldn't actually be a demigod which we know he's supposed to be. When exactly would you place this ascension in relation to other events like the birth of the Erdtree, Godfrey becoming Elden Lord, the defeat of the Gloam-Eyed Queen etc.
...I don't think Marika is the GEQ.
"Originally, in the be sinning..."
The Elden ring was the god Marika was a vessel.
Could the memory we see be not of miquella but marika?
its 4am i did a deep lore research and i got to get it out so just listen,
renalla meyter and marika are all the same in the story thematically
the starlight amber holds the demi gods fate and renalla holds a amber egg
big deal right,look
the amber egg and meyters microcosm serve the same roll of a item that is beloved that no longer make sense and are the reason for impure/unready souls,
i looked into the amber egg online and while the egg RADAGON gave renalla,an astrolager a egg made of material of stars that control fate that had a great rune for the aspect of life that is unborn demigods and a dataminer said the egg had strands of hair in it
HMMM, and that egg is the fate of the demi and maybe ithold the strands of hair that marika plucked in the story trailer
renallas love for this misunderstood power creates broken souls
meyters love for this now cold orb makes her create lives that are confused and tortured
marikas love...
then i thought maliketh,godfrey,messmer, all abandoned after gaining power for her
malenia just might be a forced vessel for the goddess of rot and gowry wants millicent betrayed and suffering to become something stronger
and if the god ritual always means 3 parts coming together and after melina words saying that if her kids become nothing they are sacrifices
in conclusion
i think marika tried to control fate and ended up invoking something bigger than she thought
she sealed the shadow realm at that gate at that moment trying to control fate
messamer had no father as far as we know of (might be radagon)so why do you think he has a snake in him
because she sealed it in him just like malenia with a portion of the rot goddess
and BUMBUMBUM
got caught in the frenzy flame and thats why she shattered the elden ring when even her god formed children died,
the frenzy is a maybe but she is in a inquisitor's torture rune and there might be the flame in radagons head as he stands up
The localization is not an issue. It very clearly reflects the themes of civilization reducing natural complexity. The hegemony of Christian thought is intensely ingrained in western society and has for centuries been wielded as tool of oppression. The localization works as well as it does because of the tangled meaning between original sin and causality. Life is suffering in large part because of our knowledge of good and evil which Christians would say that animals lack but Buddhism proposes is a quality inherent to all living beings. Miquella's wish to throw off causality entirely is a direct rejection of the principles of his parent's Golden Order, Causality and Regression--a state achieved by reducing the complexity of the Elden Ring. But Ymir confirms the English localization when he says that Miquella lay the blame everywhere except his mother. This is where we see Miquella's youthful ignorance shine through. Miquella's desire to bury Marika's original sin could better be read as an attempt to carry on Marika's endless golden age without Marika's violent exclusion. Isn't this just a universal enlightenment misinterpreted in the same way that westerners who throw off Christian misinterpret Eastern philosophies? Miquella's curse is his eternal youth in everything that matters, including his forsight. He believes he can deliver the world to Nirvana through forced compassion and deliver a true death unto his brother's soulless corpse, seemingly not understanding that if anyone is closest to Nirvana, it's Godwyn himself.
I don't get how you conclude that the translation/localization is so wrong..? I understand that the causality is a key buddhist thing, but its not as if its an unknown concept in the bible, the original sin is the cause/explanation for why the world has sin, pain, and death in Christianity.
A fan translation I've seen is, "to become a new god who would embrace everything, beyond the causality that has persisted since the beginning."
The "causality that persisted since the beginning" is clearly a reference to Marika's actions when she became a God, which is what is called the original sin in the game. And we already know everything is interconnected because of the Law of Causality. Its pretty evident that the "original sin" is the underlying cause for the later downfall of the Order. The foundation was faulty, Miquella wants to fix the foundation.
In Christianity, the original sin is the first cause that separated mankind from God, the first disparity, which then leads to all the other events in the bible. Everyone is thereby "cursed" with original sin. Theres wars, floods, blasphemy, etc. Then Jesus is seen as the one who comes back as the "New Adam" to fix the disparity between God and mankind that Adam and Eve caused. His death is the "ultimate sacrifice" that allows the cleansing of original sin. Then he serves as intercessor between the Father and mankind, so that we may be "whole" again, like Adam and Eve were before their original sin. In other words Jesus establishes a new age thats free from the original sin, (though you have to choose Jesus, where as with Moquella you wouldn't be able to refuse)
Miquella wants to "bury the original sin." Another way to say it is that he wants to put it to rest. Its still an active force thats affecting the events in the world, so he wants to bury it. We bury the dead to send them off and separate them from our daily life. Miquella wants to do the same with the original sin. If any player is paying attention to the themes of the game its apparent that Marika's original sin affects and curses everyone, confirmed by the description of the Law of Causality. And Miquella being an obvious parallel to Jesus (he sacrifices his body marked by crosses which we follow like theyre the Christian Stations of the Cross), wants to uncurse everyone from being trapped in the butterfly effect that started with Marika's original sin (just like Jesus who is said to save us from the effects of Adam and Eve's sin)
The translation is pretty damn on point imo.
So that's a great description of original sin as a causal force! But my issue with the localization was with the Buddhism side, since there just isn't an equivalent to original sin. What's more, in the base game, I don't think "original sin" would be an accurate term to use in the spell Law of Causality, especially in the English version, where it's written more as a "scientific" law with fewer religious connotations.
@@garrulousgoldmask is the buddhist idea about going beyond all causality? That's kinda what I thought. My understanding is that Miquella is just trying to go beyond one specific causality, the series of causes and effects that Marika started. That doesn't seem very biddhist to me.
And yeah, the Law of Causaliry is more like a scientific law of nature, so we can interpret events and things in the world of Elden Ring by that law, and the law of regression too. So besides just common sense knowledge of cause and effect, the Law of Causality affirms that Marika's "original sin" has a butterfly effect and impacts everything thereafter, which is why Miquella needs to essentially hard reset the order
So that is a fantastic question and has been a key point of contention within many different Buddhist schools of thought! I touch on it more in my video about Miquella's Great Rune but there are varying interpretations about whether the path to liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth as well as the end goal of enlightenment and/or nirvana are in fact bound by the law of cause and effect. And it would be transcending the very notion of causality, as opposed to one singular event.