A take is a take, but I think theres a lot wrong with the logic on this one. Saying he won MVPs because he was ny far the best player in the league so no one else could win them and holding that against him seems so backward to me. He's the best player in the league, so he wins MVP, that's a positive. Holding his longevity against him is also flawed. He was the unquestioned best player in the league for a decade, there are only 2 players who you can give this accolade to in MJ and LeBron. Then analysing his final years of a 20 year career to knock him, when only LeBron can hold a candle to the perfomance levels that late in your career is also a poor argument. He was good enough to play, and play at an elite level, for that long - its a positive. Bringing up his per 100 scoring stats, which are elite, and then comparing stats to pure scorers, without acknowledging the defence in conjunction with those stats doesn't give you a full picture. Ultimately its so hard to compare eras, from style to average level of the NBA at a given moment. But greatness is greatness, Kareem would trancend any era. He's my number three by quite the margin.
Well know pure scorers LeBron James and Michael Jordan? Well known pure scorer Steph Curry? That’s all their games are? Pure scoring? Nothing else noteworthy about their games at all?
@ClareAmel LeBron and MJ are clear, we all know this. No one is arguing that Kareem is better than them, so I wasn't referring to them. Rusty compares him to KD and James Harden and uses this to emphasise it with the "even James Fucking Harden". Also, when I say pure scorer I don't mean that's all they do, but that is main aspect of the game they're known for. Steph is my favourite player and is essentially an alien, he's got a lot about his game but he's not even in the same league of a defender as Kareem. I'm not saying that you can't use it as a point, but you can't single it out without taking the other aspects of Kareems game into context
I don’t like the “he had no competition” argument. Cause it has nothing to do with the player themselves and is basically punishing people for being too much better then their competition.
@@mathis8007 I feel like there should be an element of how you compare to your contemporaries element in greatness debate, because that's the only context you can get. You cant compare Russell and Bron, even MJ and Bron feels hard to compare across eras, but they were both so far ahead of everyone they played against for so long.
@@mathis8007 even if you put kareem in the 80's as a rookie the dude would still average the same thing and would still win MVP's do you really think anyone in the league can stop Prime Kareem? when fucking OLD kareem was still cooking the league?? kareem would still win MVP's with those insane numbers and his competition wont even matter..
@@legenddaryl537 guess what: he didn’t therefore your argument= irrelevant. You wanna know what he did: cook the league so hard during his prime he won a singular ring as the undisputed 1st option .
@@mathis8007 I mean more individually. It’s dumb to say that an MVP being competitive is way better than it having an obvious winner. I get that people like narratives
I'm not trying to mess with your head by "hating" because mental health is important but you are objectively wrong with this take. (I'm not sure if you're saying he can't be third or your puzzled why so many have him at 3) One thing I noticed about you and your friend's rank for players in your podcast, y'all care way too much about ppg on high efficiency. Placing guys with high usage and above average efficiency below guys who are asked to do less, spend less energy on offense and hit less contested shots from 3. It's absurd. (Unless you believe that Mikal Bridges got worse, when he clearly added more aspects to his game) By any standard in comparison to his peers, Lew Alcindor/KAJ was the best player in the world at UCLA before he graduated. Yes, better than anyone in the league. You've heard the saying, you can't teach height and that's a big reason why he had the Longevity. In his prime, the man is a good amount taller than Shaq, mobile, and explosive. I don't know how you can bust a nut talking about Wemby as much as you do and not realize that Kareem takes advantage of the same things compared to his era. Speaking about eras, you can't compare them. It's extremely hard especially when you're using a statistics without context. Using the Sacramento Kings as an example Sabonis has more assists than Chris Webber but he's not a better playmaker. DHO are more prevalent and spacing in the paint is at an all time high. However using your logic, I could make the argument that Sabonis is the superior playmaker. You can be the best player in the world and not win. Your philosophy on why they weren't winning when he was at his prime is such a casual take that I contemplated unsubscribing. You recognize that you are comparing Kareem to '13 Lebron who was coached by Spo with Riley looking over it. Not to mention versatile Bosh and bum knee Wade (still very good). Another example is how Kobe was at his prime in between his 3rd and 4th championship and he could carry them to the second round. I don't fault you for having a winning bias because even the most impartial sports fans do. We retrospectively say of course he's a winner but only after they win. You can research Dirk, Steph, and Jokic coverage before they won. I bring this up to say I can feel your dislike for James Harden when discussing that even he was much more efficient as if he wasn't one of the best scorers in the league. In his prime, he could score from every on the court and was a Chris Paul hamstring away from a championship going through the team a lot of people claim is the best ever constructed. Put some respect on his name. I know you listen to thinking basketball. You don't have to agree with all of their points, but you have to make more convincing points or people will confuse you with a hot take machine, fishing for outrage.
Yes, you can talk about competition because even being the best player in the league, he only won one chip while, half of the best players in the world were in another league for half of the decade and missed the playoffs multiple times. You think Mj doing that or Lebron or Magic or Duncan or Kobe? No they’re not, Kareem is a magic merchant
@@Monk-c8bwho were half the best players during the 70s guys playing in the ABA where most teams were defunct in a year. The ABA also had a chance to get Kareem but failed when George Mikan convinced him to play for the NBA. The Man won in his second year with an over the hill Oscar Robertson. And played against Nate Thurmond, an old yet dominant Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes and Willis Reed during the 70s; that's more than Shaq had to deal with in terms of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson and Mourning during the 90s and Yao during the 00s. Kareem was still dominant during the 80s but the media loved Magic and Bird so like Dr. J he was shafted for the Bird and Magic rivalry.
@@Monk-c8balso the playoff system was 8 teams out of 17 could make and the top teams had a buy in the first round best of three, and in missing had Kareem not had eye injury issues his teams would've made it every year
I understand dismissing the 70’s entirely supports your case, but not even mentioning the multiple championships won by the Knicks and the Celtics, or the record breaking season of the Lakers is not fair at all. You can declare he had no real competition for championships, and that on his greatness alone he should have won multiple titles easily, but that contradicts the realities of that era, and it contradicts the reality of this era too, to some degree. So come on now.
The Celtics and Knicks weren’t that good. Yeah, they’re great teams, they got to the Finals multiple times and won, but they aren’t among the best or even better half of all Championship teams. The Lakers in 72 or 73 were that level, but that’s all. We Unseld FMVP? The Trailblazers beyond Bill? The Sonics? These weren’t legendary teams
@@Jonathan-A.C. Wes Unseld was basically just a smaller Bill Russell and he had Elvin Hayes on his team who averaged 24/14 during his prime, and Walton was literally the MVP and still was surrounded by other All Stars, neither of those teams were weak
@@donali9020 They weren’t horrible, but they didn’t last beyond their title year. It’s one thing to individually have a good year against decent competition, but it’s another for a Magic Lakers dynasty to go up against a Bird Celtics dynasty
@@spiritstorm2892 Knicks were a good team, you’re right. But they weren’t just “8 HOF’ers level”. They had a great squad and some role players as of 73, but outside of the 5 themselves, Lucas was getting older, Reed himself was even getting older (obviously was still FMVP level, to be clear), and Phil became one as a coach. They had HOF’ers in the coaching and as president, but these aren’t necessarily the players. They were too good of a team for me to include in the list originally, but they also aren’t comparable to more modern teams and especially top 20 teams all time. They were just really really good in the 70’s (especially early 70’s), which was otherwise a weaker era. I’ll also add this though. It’s weak in areas certain other eras are strong in, and strong in areas other eras are weaker in. 80’s western conference was cheeks outside of a couple of teams, as an example
You never mentioned watching ANY film of “Washed Kareem”. Anyone who watched the 85 Finals film knows that Worthy was nowhere near arguably better than Kareem & that the series changed because of Kareem not Magic. You need to watch film instead of creating blind narratives with stats
@@arturbondarenco2155 that's also true, as long as it's not your main argument for a fabricated goat case. NOBODY cared about the all time scoring until LeBron started getting close to #1 . That's what bugs me . Calling LeBron the goat or the Greatest scorer because he scored the most points is ridiculous. Nobody was calling Kareem the greatest scorer ever or Malone the 2nd Greatest scorer ever .
@@matthieusaade3616facts, man. How the heck the guy with just 1 scoring title(even Curry has more), with no reliable jump shot or elite go-to move makes you the greatest scorer ever?
@@jaceygaither2581 what Kareem was the best player from his rookie year until year 12 so that 12 year of being the best player in the league and best offense and defensive player no body else has done that and he was still putting up good numbers after 23 22 22 22 24 all in his late 30s still a major piece on championship whining team but my bad just stats matter
I think this might be your worst take since you argued that John Wall is the best PG in the league like 7 years ago. I’ve been watching for long enough that I’ll try to watch the vid with an open mind
Love the channel, but I have to disagree with a number of your points: *_Not enough winning before Magic_* Kareem is a classic center; he doesn't bring the ball up, and he doesn't initiate offense. His job is to score and play good defense, both of which he did at the highest levels. It is almost universally understood that a great center needs a great lead guard, and before Magic the best Kareem had was an old Oscar Robertson. Despite this, he went to two Finals with Milwaukee, winning the first, and going seven games in the second. To be fair to Oscar, he played well in that first run, but was a much lesser player in the second. Either way, Kareem was excellent, and was arguably better in that second run against the Celtics. Why didn't he also win in LA? I don't know, but Kareem was still doing his job as an elite two-way player. *_Problematic Efficiency_* You used true shooting % and then compared him to a bunch of modern wings who shoot threes. I don't think you're trying to be disingenuous, but that's pretty unfair. Kareem shot well over 50% from the field every season of his career besides his final one, and had some seasons at/around 60%. He also shot 72% from the free throw line for his career, which is quite good for big man. It should also be noted that he was doing this at a time with no spacing, and no illegal defense, so guys could just camp in the paint. *_Did most of his winning after teaming up with Magic_* Right, and Magic had Kareem. I don't know why you're intent on discussing Kareem as if he was a bum during the 80s, but he averaged over 20 ppg (both in playoffs and regular season) for the majority of that run. And up to about '86, he was no worse than the second best center in the league (I'd give the nod to Moses Malone). Point is, they were great together, and they built on each other's skillsets. Shaq may have won all the Finals MVPs during the Lakers' threepeat, but they don't win any chips without Kobe's play, as well. I think it's fine if you don't think Kareem belongs in the top 3 (I still think his GOAT argument is strong), but let's be fair about our assessments. To me, Kareem's career just shows how imperfectly things can go if you don't have the right system around you. And this is true no matter how good you are.
Rusty boiling him down to an "18 an 7 Guy" when that was at the tail end of his career, really tells you all you need to know of how dismissive Rusty is of Kareem as a 2nd option. Rusty did backflips to prop up Curry's "gravity" last video but is completely dismissive of the idea Kareem as a 2nd option and his gravity as a scorer. You needed to respect Kareem when his back was against the basket, that never went away just because he was the 2nd option.
I love that half of your points are stuff that Kareem has no control over and a few more completely lack context. You also fail to realize that some of the points you made against Kareem can also be used against LeBron who you say is by far better than Kareem. Just goes to show that y'all don't actually like basketball and pretty much just use it to pathetically assert your intellectual superiority which in truth is just a sign that you're chronically online.
Not to speak on other statements he’s made, but the stuff about Kareem here is pretty clear and objective. It might not be accurate (I think it is), but it’s not just shitting on them because “oh, they’re bad”. Competition isn’t even mentioned that much here. In fact, it’s worse, because assuming he had bad competition in the 70’s, him not winning more than 1 ring is a bad look
@@Top1Big23 and you’re pointing out one MVP season. The guy has 5 others on 50 and 60 win teams. That would still have him as one of the goats. You’re just pushing an agenda
This is one take I can't get behind. Rick Barry missed only the first two years of Kareem's career. Kareem also had good competition during the early part of his career - Unseld. Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Reed, McAdoo, Haywood, Thurmond, young Walton, even old Wilt. Let's trade the 1976 MVP for the one which Kareem lost in 1973 despite the Bucks having a 60-22 record and Kareem doing better than Dave Cowens (the Celtics had 68 wins that year) statistically. Some of the MVP voting in that period was strange, like Bill Walton winning in 1978 despite playing only in 58 games. As for the 1980 MVP he was still the best performer on the team. Putting it all on Magic was a stretch. Furthermore, Kareem carried the Lakers in the 1980 Finals with an average of 33 points though he missed Game 6. Well, we will still credit Magic for what he did but it wasn't like Kareem did nothing. As for longevity, try running your numbers on the average length of careers NBA players had during that period. Rest and recuperation were not on the list of most NBA players in that era, especially with the rampant drug problem and the lifestyles players led back then. Kareem's discipline enabled him to play impactful basketball far longer than his contemporaries, though maybe in the last three years it was clear Magic was already carrying the team. We have to admit that for some part of the '70s the existence of two leagues left some guys off their peak competition, but in Kareem's case his first five years he still had good veterans to compete against, and the majority of his career was post-merger. Minimizing his accomplishments by your logic also diminishes whatever Russell, Wilt, West, and Robertson achieved. It becomes reductionist in the sense because of how we are trying to compare accomplishments across eras. Let's also not take away his accomplishments in high school and college. In fact, I would argue Kareem is underrated because he hardly got great press.
Having a ranking across eras is like choosing your favorite food at the best restaurant - it's a matter of personal preference and what context you use. You could add any value to whatever kind of evidence you present. I'm not a Kareem fan, but we can't reduce a career to numbers without context. I'd rather we enjoy the games and then shoot the sh*t about which players we like. I know Rusty was click-baiting but we have to call out poor arguments when they arise.
@@willingexile3374Nice for someone to admit how subjective goat talks are. You're comparing a damn 7 footer to a 6'2 guard unironically and telling me the 7 footer's better. Or comparing 2 players who played 40 damn years apart. And the metric for measuring greatness shifts greatly. For me personally greatness is a mix of influence and hard work. So Kobe's mine. Numbers don't favor him at all, but to me that's a guy who hurt his longevity because of how much he was practicing and working on his game. That's maximized potential. I do agree that this debate really sucks, imagine being an NBA player and doing your best your whole career then have thousands tear you down till the day you die because you're not some genetic anomaly. Comparison is the thief of joy, yet nba fans love nothing more. I hope one day this trend settles down.
A couple of counterpoints here. While the NBA in the 1970s was definitely weaker due to competition with the ABA, it wasn't weaker at the center position. The only real elite center the ABA had was Artis Gilmore. Yes Wilt was older, but he was still leading the NBA in rebounds and probably would have won defensive player of the year once or twice in the 70s had the award existed at that time. Also, Kareem had to compete against HOF centers from the 70s such as Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, and Dave Cowens, all of whom were in their peak during the 70s before the ABA merger, and were better than every ABA center except for Gilmore. The ABA was more of a wings and guards league. He also played against peak Gilmore and Bill Walton after the merger. Also, when comparing Kareem's per 100 numbers like TS%, those numbers are going to be lower for players from the 60s, 70s, and early 80s because the league as a whole was a lot less efficient during that time. So, it's not really a fair comparison to compare his efficiency numbers to Curry, Durant, or even Jordan. What is fair is to compare the difference between his offensive rating and defensive rating, which those same statistics that you highlighted showed Kareem with a 22 point difference (116 Offensive rating vs 94 defensive rating), better than Curry (121 vs 107, a 14 point difference), Durant (119 vs 103 a 16 point difference), and Jordan (121 vs 103, an 18 point difference). I agree with some of your other points, that he won only 1 championship in the 70s and maybe 3 at tops as the best player for a championship winning team. His rebounding and block shot numbers also took a major hit during the 80s, and he wasn't the same athletic player that he was in the 70s. And there were definitely a lot of ABA players that could have competed with him for MVPs had they played in the NBA (or if the two leagues merged sooner). Overall, I think you have a good case, but I think that this little bit of nuance should still be considered.
Nick Write putting Kareem as 2nd and Micheal Jordan as 3rd in his all time rankings was probably one of the most elaborate agenda driven takes ive ever seen on. Basketball.
@@i.qena_To say anyone else is takes his 3 spot is overrating that player tho 😭😭 Saying Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Russel, Duncan, Kobe are third over him would be insane
@@ebenezeronile If people wanna go by how the arguments were back in the day then you have to Bird there too since Magic and Bird were considered tied :3
The aba merger argument is probably one of the more misleading arguments. There’s only 2 ABA players who won the nba mvp and to even call Moses an aba player is stretching it. Many of the nba players who couldn’t last in the league became respectable and even at points stars in the aba, and outside of literally two guys, many of the aba stars saw declines in their production because the nba was genuinely harder one of those guys being Dr J himself. This is a guy who was pretty much a 27-30 pointer scorer and he dropped to 22 point scorer, doesn’t help that the first time those aba guy came to town, the first mvp and first champion were still nba players. The fact that Kareem still rang two more mvps is more than clear enough that aba or no aba players he’d still be the best guy
The playoffs were best 2 of 3 and then 3 of 5 back then. That’s why it was easier to have upsets in the playoffs. How many great players today would have been upset with that playoff format l
I think you made some overall good points and some points I'd disagree with. Personally, I have Kareem as my interchangeable #3 with Bill Russell, and I grant them a sort of "special" GOAT argument. I think Kareem's longevity does get overstated a bit, and he was a glorified role player for his last two titles. The thing I strongly disagree with is how you went about discussing his MVPs. His first two are among the very best seasons ever. 1974 and 1977 are amazing MVPs, and 1980 is a pretty good one. 1976 is the only one I'd take away from him because of the losing record. And then on paper, yes, it is puzzling how a player can be so much further ahead of the next guy (except Dr. J in the ABA) while only winning once, but honestly, every time he lost EXCEPT 1973, you can't really blame him. He lost to the Knicks in the midst of their first title run. Then he lost to one of the greatest teams ever in the 1972 Lakers. He battled the mid 70s Celtics till a game 7. He played amazing basketball against a just better Trailblazers team. And then at the end of the decade, he was facing the late 70s SuperSonics which went to two straight finals. His help was good, not great up until the 70s, and I disagree with the mentions of Norm Nixon and Jamaal Wilkes as some sort of proof that he did have great teammates for the entirety of the 70s. In general, I think his 70s run is underrated, while his 80s run is overrated. I think Kareem as a player, is by most people, fairly rated.
I personally add points to Kareem's legacy because of the political activism he did off the platform of his sporting fame. Much like people do with Muhammad Ali. That being said i still have him as number 3 in my ranking (guess who they might be). Totally makes sense for people to have him lower.
@thoughtstealin this is a casual take and watch what you say About Muhammad Ali .just say you don't know nothing About Basketball they changed the Rules in NCAA because of Kareem and Kareem won a championship at every level and he was considered the GOAT before Michael Jordan
@@darnellwilliams8783 he seemed like he was complimenting Kareem to me. His activism should be celebrated. MJ has cared solely about MJ his entire life.
Nah, I do too. For me, it is a pretty clear argument, to be honest. Magic dominated in a slightly more difficult era. Post ABA merger with a hyper competitive 80's throughout the whole decade.
While I don’t totally disagree with your assessment of Kareem being SLIGHTLY overrated, you omitted something pretty glaring about his last 3 championship runs: He justifiably won the ‘85 Finals MVP averaging a 26-9-5 on 60% shooting, even elevating his play in the last 2 games to put up a 36-point effort in Game 5 and 29 points in Game 6 (both wins for LA). Magic was better in the early rounds that year, but Kareem brought it home in the end.
Old man Wilt gave Prime Kareem a fit in head to head matchups. Sure Kareem outscored him, but Kareem also took twice as many shots. They split wins 50/50. I can only imagine how much better a prime Wilt would have handled Kareem.
well he’s the collegiate goat, and the social justice goat, and he had rules made to stop him, and he nearly destroyed the nba with his dominance in the ‘70s because viewers were just getting bored. and he was a great defender for most of his career unlike some names like curry and kd that might be in that 3-11 range of all-time players. playing up until 41 and being the 3rd best player of a dynasty in the 80s arguably makes him the durability goat too. i dont know why its particularly an issue that he is for most people undisputedly 3rd.
This is by far your worst take. To evaluated Kareem without mentioning that he was both the greatest high school AND college player ever is a pretty glaring oversight. The guy lost 6 games total over 7 years and won 3 state, 3 National and 3 NCAA titles before ever entering the NBA. He then won MVPs, FMVP, and an NBA almost immediately after entering the league. He played for 20 seasons and won 4 titles in his last 5 seasons. And sure Magic was better than him by the end, just like AD outplays Lebron these days, or Kobe outplayed Jordan on the Wizards. But when the Lakers needed to win a game at the buzzer, go watch who has the ball in his hands. Cause it was Kareem, every fucking time.
this is the problem, ya'll have this undying loyalty to a version of kareem that exists in your heads that ya'll forget all logic, for no other player do we look at things like olympic play or college career, and yet people never fail to bring that crap up for Kareem, stop blindly looking at resumes and actually watch basketball. If u don't actually love hoops then basketball reference is right there
Also I think his cultural impact on the game is underrated. I think him being one of the first mainstream Muslim athletes is huge for a lot of people, not that it compares to MJ or LeBron but for the time that's pretty incredible
Kareem has to be the most unanimous number. 3. Ranking of any player outside of Jordan and LeBron. It's weird that the from 1:00 to 3:00 is pretty consistent
It continues to happen. Young guys say new players are better. Old guys defend older players. Let me say. "I hate kareem." But. The most unstoppable, unblockable shot ever was terrifying. You know that picture of jordans shot in 98? The crowd knew they were done. Or toronto fans when bron come to town. That was the entire nba for a decade and a half. Yes he needed help to win tittles. Do does everyone. He missed the playoffs when things went bad, just as jordan and bron did. Only 3 guys have completely dominated a decade since the 50s. He is one of them.
Very hot take, with very spotty reasoning. Pre merger was still a very competitive League, with many great players and teams. Which is why no team during that era won more than one ring. Also, mvp’s do not directly correlate to rings.
Ice cold take. Holding his longevity against him is insane. Short of Bill Russell's Celtics he won more championships across all levels of basketball than anyone else ever. Is he in my top 3? No. But hes not overrated.
@@BT405 If what's at issue is lessening impact later in your career, longevity being held against you, yes it does matter. Playing at a league ready level in highschool and 4 years at college at the highest level puts miles on your legs and 100% should be credited. Dude played basketball at an elite level for damn near 30 years. Picking and choosing what you want to credit him for and discredit him for to fit a preconceived opinion is by definition bias. If you want to hold Kareem's later years against him, keep that same energy with Wizards Jordan.
@@ClareAmelrussell aint in no top 3s bro u capping He at the most is at 5 and is rare most of time he is disrespected cause he played in the 60s and most of people dont even have him in the top 10
3 players in the history of NBA were hyped since day 1, lived up to that hype, managed to make a huge carrier with multiple trophies and records and left back a legacy even bigger than their NBA carrier(Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan and Lebron James). You can add 2 or 3 players on that list but thats all
I whole heartedly agree. This comment section cannot differentiate between overrated and bad, or so it seems. Kareem also was a slight playoff dropper as when facing the top centers in playoff series, he'd get outperformed even at his peak a lot of the times. His longevity is very overrated, he wasn't good for all 20 seasons like people make it out to be, his last 5 seasons were no where near elite. Also people tend to overrate his dominance cause I also feel like he severely benefited from the ABA, as you could argue ABA > NBA back in the 70s, his numbers were a lot worse after the NBA/ABA merger as well.
The ABA was NOT better than the NBA. There's people who couldn't hang in the NBA who switched and became decent roleplayers. Julius erving instantly dropped about 7 points when he got in the nba. Kareem's best scoring season in 1977
I completely disagree with you. I have always felt the opposite way, that Kareem has been under rated his entire career. He is the greatest college player of all time without a doubt, and he had to sacrifice four NBA years for UCLA years. Otherwise Lebron would have no chance of catching Kareem's points record. Plus, Kareem has moved MVPs of all time, with 6, and 5 of his 6 championships are completely legit where he was a key contributor. He clearly deserved 5 of his rings, and there is a case to be made he even deserved the sixth. The Skyhook was practically invincible, and it was an original shot played by Kareen. I have Kareen tied for 1 with Jordan and higher then Lebron.
Before getting into the main points, did you just compare points per possession and true shooting stats between a player who played more than half his career without three point shooting even being an option to a bunch of players in the three point era?
Even overall regarding the Black American Gods, mount Rushmore, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, I think Kareem is under rated. He has consistently dominated basketball, had an invincible skyhook, and was a major civil rights champion. So many icons from the 1980s who were preachy were exposed as hypocrites like Cosby and have been brought down etc. Kareem's legacy has gotten stronger. Kareem is lowkey one of the greatest Black Americans of all time. He is up there with Ali, Jordan, and Michael Jackson.
He was a great player for 14 or 15 seasons which is insane. And when I say great I mean he was the greatest player when he was great, And someone had a really good point in this comment section his longevity is a really good point for him you can't hold it against him that LeBron is on modern supplements that are allowed and that exists now versus Kareem who couldn't use that cuz they didn't exist and the stuff that did exist were very very illegal (because I'm sorry if you think he is 100% natural you're a moron he is getting assistance it's just on the legal variety of their testing) He was a great player who was truly exceptional for his time, and you can't hold his success against him because the 70s was an era of which we have never seen until recently where teams were so well-constructed that it was really hard to win, Oscar Robertson retired after he won with the bucks. And then those Lakers teams had no one else to help him, he got magic started winning again and had great seasons for a minute and then was gone because he got old he's still aged considerably well in comparison to most especially if you consider how much he weighed and how tall he was you compare him to shaq and it's not even close he is obviously the best player of those two and he aged way better, He was a really good scorer I hate the argument that "oh he's not a good pure score because he doesn't have a bag!" If you're stupid just say it because everyone acknowledges Shaq was one of the best offensive players of all time he was one of the best scorers of all time because you couldn't stop him. Kareem was the same you couldn't really stop him, Do you know the kicker of it is I don't really like Kareem I hate watching his highlights because it's really effective but also I think it is.... It's like the Tom Brady of basketball, Tom Brady besides those years with Randy Moss was just getting four to five yards consistently occasionally that 10 yd+ pass and that's how the game would go was it pretty? No it was ugly and you hated it because it worked so well and you were just going "please God can someone stopped him because you know what he's going to do" and that is the problem with Kareem is if he had a game as pretty as Allen Iverson everyone would think he was the greatest player ever because that would mean he would have a prettier game than Jordan and LeBron and all he did was really impressive, you would have arguments against him but he would be in the conversation quite easily because his game would look pretty. And conversely with my comparison Tom Brady was similar other players hated him so much that they prolonged their careers to make sure that he didn't have certain records he ended up with all of them you can't reject him he is the Kareem of football he has all the records when he retired and he's also like Bill Russell he has more super bowls than anyone ever, So I guess closing note because I went on for a while. Kareem was a great player and it's a fallacy to put all of his value on his longevity. But it's also a fallacy to act like modern players don't have enhancements that they get from living in the modern day versus him banging out 10 years in the 70s and then almost making it to the 90s, he quite literally lived through an era where people still thought cocaine was somewhat good for you.
What gets me is the fact people didn’t start unanimously putting Kareem in the top 3 til the 2010s when LeBron started being seen as a threat to legends’ legacies. Even during the 80s, Kareem was viewed in contemporary time as not being better than Magic or Bird. Only long after he retired did people start revising history
In fairness this isn’t necessarily wrong, the same has happened with duncan. However i would agree that with kareem its more because people have went too far now rather than with duncan where it was more that people just underrated him in time.
Yes, all NBA opinions you don’t like are all part of a grand conspiracy against LeBron. Kareem was widely considered the greatest player of all time when he retired. Go look up newspaper articles from the time. Go read what people thought about him. And then come back and tell me that “no one thought he was top 3 until 2010”
This video makes me question LeBron’s longevity more than Kareem’s. Minus chips, every argument you could make against Kareem could also be applied to Bron and really every single GOAT candidate except Jordan
I feel like you commented this before watching the video. How does “he wasn’t the best player on a championship team” apply to LeBron? What, you gonna try to argue 2020? Some of Kareem’s MVPs being suspect, how does that apply to LeBron? Rusty even gives stats proving LeBron himself among others scored significantly more on a per possession basis than Kareem peak vs. peak. You can only make your comment if you haven’t actually watched the video and you assume it’s just Rusty rambling about “longevity isn’t a big deal” for twenty minutes, which wasn’t his argument
@@ClareAmel Yep, facts. Every point Rusty made, it would look more favorably for LeBron, besides strictly amount of MVP’s won, plus maybe winning that fast
@@ClareAmel yeah using a per 100 possession instead of using the numbers straight up so biased. The questionable MVPs isn't even an argument he's only arguing because nobody else was supposedly good enough to be better? Like how is that a legit argument isn't the best player supposed to get MVP? And he used winning rings while being the MVP and that's literally something you can do for LeBron
I disagree tbh. Kareems prime was wild. 34.8/16.6/4.6 + blocks that weren't recorded likely around 3-4. I'd love to know who else in nba history was putting up 35/17/5/3-4 in their prime, with dpoy defense. Maybe 3-4 ever? And he has the second best longevity in nba history on TOP of the ridiculous peak. Only lebron can tout a longer, elite level career than Kareem, and Kareem played 4 years of college while Bron came out of highschool, meaning in his 20th season Bron is actually 3-4 years older than kareem was at the same stage of his career. The difference between a 38 year old athlete and a 42 year old athlete is massive. And the best years of his career were earlier, with his 2 best seasons being 1971 and 1972, his 2nd and 3rd years in the league respectively. Kareem literally averaged 29/15/4 in his rookie season, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that if Kareem had been allowed to come to the NBA sooner, Bron wouldn't have even sniffed the all time scoring record. So he has top 5 peak, top 2 longevity, AND he was the most accomplished player of all time. He was a 6 time mvp (should have been around 8-9) and a 6 time champion, 15 time all nba, 19 time all star. He has the best trophy case in basketball and it's not even that close. And the argument I hear a lot about how he "didn't win enough in the 70's" doesn't hold water to me. His best teammate in the 60's by a huge margin was Oscar Robertson, who was very good but fell off a cliff production wise after 1972 and he retired in 1974. Kareem didn't have an elite level guard on his team again until Magic in 1980, 10 years into his career. And nobody won consistently in the 70's, there wasn't a dynasty. It's the era with the most parity in nba history. But if you look at his 70's record it's very impressive. In 1970 Kareem made the second round as his teams first option *in his rookie year* while averaging *35/17/4*, likely with 3-4 blocks tacked on as well. This is without Robertson btw. In 1971 he immediately wins a title in his second season the literal first chance he gets now that he has a good second option in robertson. He averaged 32/16/3 and won finals mvp. He wouldn't get another title in the 70's but that requires context. Kareem nearly dragged the bucks to a championship AFTER 1971. In 72 he lost to the lakers, who are one of the greatest teams of all time, with Gail Goodridge putting up 26/5/4, Jerry West putting 26/10/4 (West is the most underrated player of all time imo btw) and Wilt putting up 20/15/4 with likely 3-5 blocks per game (and who was the best defender in the league). Kareem averaged 34/17/5 on the year, including 34/18/5 in the wcf where he would lose to the eventual champ lakers in 6 games. In 1973 Kareem averaged 30/16/5 but disappointed in the first round against the warriors. In 1974 he got his team to the finals, and took the boston celtics (who won 2 titles in the 70s) to 7 games. He averaged 33/12/5 while robertson averaged 12/8/3. Not terrible from robertson but not exactly "second option on a finals team" numbers. In 1975 he missed 17 games while his third best player Lucius Allen only played 10 games before getting traded and his 4th best player Jim Price missed 32 games. For significant stretches of the season the bucks 3rd and 4th best players were averaging 11/3/3 and 9/3/2. I'm not kidding, AND I rounded that up. The Bucks were also 3-14 in the games he missed, while they were above 500 when Kareem played because he averaged 30/14/4/3. Hardly his fault. In 1976 he paired with Lucius Allen again, as well as a still productive, albiet much less productive Gail Goodridge. Kareem averaged 28/17/5/4, while Gail averaged 20/6/3/2 and Lucius Allen averaged 15/5/3. The only other people to average above 10ppg were Cazzie Russell and Donnie Freeman. In 77 Kareem averaged 26/13/4/3 which for him is a down year. Goodridge was on the Jazz now, and only 2 of kareems teammates averaged above 10ppg. They were Lucius Allen and Cazzie Russell, who averaged 15/5/3 and 16/4/3 respectively. Hardly world beaters at this point, but Kareem still dragged that team to the western conference finals before losing to the eventual champion Portland Trailblazers in a sweep. Allen, his second best player missed half the series. That blazers team, with the same roster, went 50-10 the next year in games Bill Walton played and remains one of the most underrated of all time. In 1978 Kareem averaged 26/13/4/3 on a much more well rounded lakers squad, with 8 players other than kareem averaging at least 10ppg and a genuinely great player in Adrian Dantley (albiet in his second season.) It should be noted Kareem missing 20 games after breaking his hand on Kent Bensons face probably has a lot to do with that. He would lose in the first round while his teammates dropped a scorching statline of 12/9/3 (Jamaal Wilkes, second most minutes), 17/8/4 (Dantley, third most minutes), 10/5/4 (Charlie Scott, 4th most minutes) and 12/3/3 (Lou Hudsen 5th most minutes). In 1979 Kareem averaged 24/13/5/4. In the playoffs he would average 29/13/5/4 before losing in the second round. No one on the team averaged within 10 points of Jabbar, and imo the only players even worth mentioning are Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes and Dantley. And then in 1980 he got Magic Johnson and averaged 32/12/4/3 in the playoffs, including 34/13 and FIVE BLOCKS in the finals to win the chip, while getting robbed of finals mvp. IMO anyone who says Kareem is overrated just hasn't looked in depth at his career enough. If anything the guy is *underrated*.
@@AustinMulkaMusic He was the best player in 1971, 1980 and arguably in 1985 when he was 38. He was inarguably the best on 2, debatably the best on 3. And we aren't arguing that he was better than Jordan or Bron, we're arguing he's better than everyone else in the top 10. if you give him 2 that's the same amount as Kobe, Wilt, Hakeem and Steph. If you give him 1985 as well then he has 3, giving him more than those guys, and evening him up with Bird, Magic, Timmy and Shaq. And there's no arguing who has the better case outside of rings between those guys and Kareem. I think he's pretty easily top 3.
@@donaldf9055 Rick Barry is definitely up there but imo people just forget about him rather than disrespect his greatness. People disrespect west rather than acknowledge him for the top 15-20 player he is.
@@Drakoth01 facts 💯. He was the best scorer in the 60's (people say wilt but he was significantly better as a scorer on the offs especially in the finals) was phenomenal offball, elite passer (led the league on assist), and elite defender. He's fs top 15 if people respect his era and who he was as a player. But Rick Barry was just as good as a scorer, shot 90% at the line back at a time where shooting 80% was considered elite, was a terrific passer, and most importantly, no one talks about him ever. I don't even hear him be mentioned.
Lets be honest here Rusty used '83 maybe as the year Kareem won FMVP when Magic deserved, I get it there are millions of facts but for a HUGE vid disrespecting someone your research and script need to be infallible, and the '83 6ers are often commented as 1 of the top 5 teams all time, and there has been a ton of discourse around it since the GSW 73-9, then this year are the Cs a top 5 all time. So sorry Jacob you just invalidated this video and your whole take as ranting and raving of a madman.
I rank Kareem as low as 5 with Shaq & Kobe higher and I still feel that this video is distasteful and kind of a hit piece on Kareem no matter if we rank him similarly. Kareem is a monster from an athletic profile standpoint and a skill standpoint who benefitted from his era but could certainly benefit in almost any other era if he was dropped in. Especially/including now: 7’2/7’3, unstoppable sky-hook as a signature move that would translate today, but could certainly dunk and play above the rim, score in low and high post isolation, get easy buckets in a league that relies on bigs to just roll to the rim and clean up inside seals had a decent 10-12 foot jump shot that it’s safe to assume could stretch but just that is good enough to dominate todays league that despite the spacing upticks, everyone has atleast one big that either doesn’t shoot or doesn’t defend. Does anyone really think Kareem couldn’t be a monster today? Maybe you can say Bill and Wilt couldn’t but Kareem was different than them even when he was in college. He had a completely different level of skill and touch that he relied on that kind of made people over look that he could be imposing, especially early on. He was an elite rim protector, honestly an underrated defender that would’ve had multiple DPOY’s if the award was around. The talent of the ABA wouldn’t phase him, he was simply better than Artis Gilmore, he was better than Dan Issel. If anyone’s game could translate from that era, it’s him. You can make arguments that his era detriments his legacy too. And we all know Kareem in today’s age wouldn’t play a full career in UCLA, he’s going out in one year. So why do we begin our judgement or nitpicking of Kareem’s legacy and skill from age 31 on? And just say well his era was weak. Like we don’t have eye balls? All just huge hypotheticals but I believe he’d dominate any era except maybe the best era of big men which was the 93-97 era with Shaq, Hakeem, David & Patrick Ewing: and depending on situation he could have more success than any of those guys/succeed the success of those guys if slotted into their situations. But mind you I think Shaq is better than Kareem and rank Hakeem not far after Kareem. I think Magic did what he was supposed to do when paired with Kareem, Kareem though his longevity was impressive was over the hill as far as his individual skill when Magic got there but that doesn’t detract from what he brought as the CENTER and aging second best player on that dynasty. Mind you he was the second best center in the league at the time at ages 32 until Hakeem was drafted, so how can we detract from his legacy just because he had Magic? Magic had him as well. Kareem did everything that he was supposed to do from a career standpoint which is something you can’t even say for most of the greats. I would argue that he exchanged a dominant post peak for a longevity-inclusive post peak and we know that he had to sacrifice and change his entire play style when Magic got there for them to win. He couldn’t just isolate low post for entire games any more like his teams needed. I feel like highlighting his era, his true-shooting and that he got Magic are all silly arguments that all have easy counterarguments. The fact is that at some point Kareem was going to end up with some kind of co-star(s), it’s happened for all the great big man except maybe Hakeem. It doesn’t detract from what he did and was without them and things he can’t control.
I want to clarify that when I say there’s an argument that his era detriments his legacy I mean that for an counterarguments sake to his legacy his era could have prevented people from understanding how dominant he was just because of the competition. Do i think he would win 5 MVPS and a ring before getting a costar in another era or today’s league? No. So in that sense his legacy is improved from his era but I also believe that he would be viewed as more dominant and less of this asterisked historical figure that we have to double think about how good he was bc of the weird era he’s from. Because his game just.. holds up.
I feel like if we are gonna be on Wilt for winning just 2 rings against Bill in his prime while being the best player statistically in the era, we should do same for Kareem for winning one ring with a somewhat relevant squad in the weakest era of the organized basketball with really no real treats like the Bill Russel Celtics or Lakers
So we're judging him by standards that didn't exist when he played, using stats that don't exist for his best seasons, and thus he's not an all-time great scorer. This argument is garbage. You try playing 40+ minutes, including being the defense and then being asked to top your 28 ppg average so you can keep up with guys in the future on a per possession basis, when they all had this information to inform their game and he didn't. Also, being so far ahead of everyone else that you win MVP even when your team doesn't win, isn't a knock on him. MJ is the first 'best player in the NBA' to win a lot of titles without a team of all-stars around him and he had that for the second 3peat. Bill Russell was never the actual best player, just the best leader of stacked teams. Wilt didn't win much. Kareem and Magic won together, and with Worthy. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Kobe and Shaq had each other for 3 of their titles. Lebron has played with everyone. Curry had KD for 2 of his 4 and probably only got 2015 because Kyrie and Love were both out. Duncan is really the only other best player in the league who won a lot of titles without superstars around him and his teams were incredibly well built, if not fantasy basketball stacked. Moses Malone didn't win much. Hakeem only won 2. Kawhi has won twice, once before he was an actual superstar. Big O, Jerry West, KD any other best players in history, don't have a lot of titles. Jokic only has 1 and he's put in conversations at this level. Kareem has 6 MVPs and 6 rings. Those all followed being the best high school player EVER and the best college player EVER. He's in a tier above nearly everyone ever.
He’s a GOAT candidate because of 32 PPG on 57 FG% / 76 FT%, 14.5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.2 SPG, 3.4 BPG for 53 straight playoff games ‘74-‘80, 70% of those playoff games in a post-merger era. The front-to-back NBA stats speak for themselves. For comparison, Wilt’s 52 playoff games ‘60-‘66 were statistically boosted by a pace of roughly 20+ possessions per game to the ‘74-‘80 period of Kareem. Wilt’s Warriors in ‘60, ‘61, ‘62 were especially high pace. They played at 132 possessions per game. Kareem’s teams ‘74-‘80 were 105, Wilt’s ‘60-‘66 were 125. NBA averages: 122 ‘60-‘66 vs. 106 ‘74-‘80. Wilt avg 33 PPG on 50.5 FG% / 52 FT%. How many PPG would Kareem avg w/20 more possessions per game?
Facts, after 1985 he was an Allstar calibre player. But people act like Magic having 40 year old Kareem in his prime is the same as Steph having peak KD in his prime. Magic is the most underrated player today and Kareem in the 80’s is overrated for sure, but I can’t give you Hakeem. Kareem’s still top 4 AT LEAST
No I personally think Hakeem is better then Kareem seriously . For one I think he’s literally a better player snd he is one of the select few players I think from the 90s and prior that can be ported to any era as they are and actually still be the same player . Plus when you factor the rings Hakeem one without all star talent , while being the goat defender . Go watch nick wrights Hakeem olojuwan video , I think it will put into perspective how great he really was
@@necoharvey9736 hakeem was great but he didnt have the accolades.. hakeem had 1 MVP and 2 rings and its all SUS because MJ retired the same year hakeem won.. plus hakeem is nowhere near Kareem in his prime.. completely fucked up in the head if you think so.. kareem averaged 34 pts in a season playing 80+ games hakeem would never touch that.. plus hakeem defensively is not above kareem cause both players blocked alot of shots in their prime
@@necoharvey9736 and dude nick wright is a clown.. nobody believes anything that dude says.. only dumb people watch him and believes everything he says
Yeah this video is crazy.. Man, if this is how we doing the greats of the past, I can’t wait to see how we gonna shit on todays NBA players in the future.
Someone finally said it, with context at least. I always thought about how Kareem & Duncan were similar to each other in this sense, career-wise. Everyone's quick to bring up accolades but missing a lot of context, especially for Kareem which you brought up in this video.
You leave so much out. You never ONCE mention his height and his body type compared to Lebron or others when talking about his longevity. For being a big man, compared to other all-time great big man, he was still making all-nba first teams well into his 30’s, and helping his team win championships during these years. You can’t even say that about other players I would rank ahead of him, like Russell or maybe Wilt, and also Hakeem and Shaq. He is an extreme outlier for longevity of playing at a high level for his BODY TYPE and height. And across all players, he is still one of the all-time bests at longevity at a high level, even though that naturally doesn’t favor men as ridiculously tall as him.
Agreed that it’s not obvious Kareem is number 3…definitely top 5 though. However, I think it’s kind of unfair to knock a guy for being so much better than everyone else in his era, and we all know that being the world’s best player doesn’t automatically translate to multiple rings. Also I think why Kareem is usually top 3 is because him, MJ and LeBron are really the only guys to be considered the undisputed best players of their era. 60s is Bill and Wilt, 70s Kareem, 80s Magic and Bird, 90s Jordan, 2000s Kobe and Duncan, and 2010s LeBron.
Bless your heart rusty. Been telling my buddies this for YEARS. I can accept he’s great but having him over magic or bird for me is outrageous. Although he was still dominant in the early 80s, he wouldn’t have gotten any of those 80s titles without magic. But people talk about him today like he was god’s gift to basketball and was always the best, just not true.
I know you work hard, and I mostly like your videos, but this is weak. Lot of shaky logic and surface level analysis. The kind of effort you’d find in a Twitter thread, not in 20 minute video.
I think the main argument, was that he was only the best player on his team for 1 of his championships. He averaged 18 pts and 6.7 rebounds for his last 3 championships. LeBron was the best player on his team for all 4 championships. If LeBron was only the best player on his team for 1 championship, he wouldn’t even be top 10. LeBron has 4 finals MVPs. And most people have LeBron at 2. Not the GOAT.
@@AustinMulkaMusic I have LeBron at no. 2 as well, but let’s not pretend that LeBron isn’t a longevity merchant as well. He has 4 championships in a 23 year career, which isn’t terrific
So with lebron the longevity thing is a reason his jock sniffers say he is the goat.... but if someone else played for 20 years it's played out and they're overrated. Lmao k.
In LeBron’s case it’s longevity with three or four titles as the best player on the team whereas there’s one or two for Kareem as he said. Both had great longevity for their respective generations either way.
@@kyleshuler2929Neither Kyrie or AD "carried" LeBron in either of those championship runs. That implies that LeBron didn't hold up his end of the pairing, which is false; he did, more than they did at certain times. Get a better understanding of what carrying means.
This man won MVP when he did not even make the play-off but we hate on Westbrook and Jokić for winning MVP when they were just 6th seed or when they get swept. That's what being a sociaty darling gives you
That 1978 Washington Bullets championship wasnt off the back of Wes Unseld, it was primarily Bob Dandridge and Elvin Hayes (each Hall of Famers), Unseld won FMVP because he was the Bullets' guy. Also, i dont think you ever brought up Kareem's defense. You brought up the scoring, but he's got twice as many block titles as scoring titles. He's one of the best two-way players of all time, only eclipsed funnily enough by MJ and LeBron. Despite that, i do agree that Kareem's championships in the 80s aren't that impressive, especially when you have Magic fucking Johnson on your team lmao
Kareem overrated? Top 3 at least and i have neever actually seen anybody make a goat case, even though he actually has one. Edit: After watching this video and informing myself about Kareems career i gotta admit he spoke nothing but facts. 6 championships and 6 MVPs do sound like goat material, but context matters. While i think Kareem has a case to be the 3rd greatest NBA player ever, he shouldn't be imo. Accolades really can be misleading sometimes and while i think Kareem is without a doubt one of the greatest NBA players ever, saying that he is low key overrated is absolutely valid and i definitely agree. I thought he was EASILY the 3rd best player of all time, but you really gotta consider many things into these convos. Sorry, but this video is PERFECT and anyone who ain't biased would also agree.
KAJ is the only player in the world that by himself made a team a legit contender. Jordan, Lebron are responsible for 5 - 20 extra wins, Cleveland was 20 wins because they were tanking to actually get Lebron the prior season but with their additions each of there respective teams went from abysmal to piss poor. Kareem took a newly formed franchise that was 1 years old and took them from 27-55 to 56-26 and lost in the Eastern Finals to the eventual NBA champs. He beat the NCAA championship team as a freshman because he wasn't allowed to play as a freshman on the varsity UCLA team. He then won 3 chips in college, 6 chips in the pros this was after he won 3 straight NYC high school championships. They even changed rules to prevent his dominance in college, so to act like he isn't the greatest when he dominated the sport from High School to the Pros is ridiculous.
Hakeem is better honestly, the difficulty of his rings in my opinion does it for me and you can only compare physical freaks to him that had the same ‘Aura’ defensively and backed it up . Also he dominated majority of his big men matchups whilst probably having an equal or worst supporting cast. Hakeem also probably the few players in NBA history that offensively and defensively peaked to similar level and the latter probably edged it because he is 1 of the few big men in that era and even now that can step out to defend the perimeter to a good level.
1994 Knicks supporting cast was much worse then the 1994 rockets and people underrate the 1995 team they had Drexler who was more suited as a 2nd option and they had good role players who stepped up.
i been saying this for a few years now , i believe tim duncan is the 3rd best player of all time , arguably the best defender of all time , was the main reason of the spurs reign over the league for 20+ years as the best player , great scorer and played ina arguably the most competitive era ever
I think we should shift conversations more to “GOTT” (greatest of their time) talks instead of “GOAT” talks. How good X player was at their time matters more because once you start crossing eras you lose nuance and context. If MJ was drafted today would he just be a Dennis Smirh Jr. type player or the MJ we know? Does Kareem dominate in today’s league? Is Steph Curry shooting from 40 in the 60s? Different rules, goals, etc. Just impossible to stay accurate and objective, not to mention nostalgia often kills logic.
so Kareem had 3 titles as the best player, won multiple MVPs which yes I understand and get the argument that there wasn't necessarily competition but that doesn't make them any less an MVP, is one of the best shot blockers at his prime, had amazing longevity and the second most points scored all time but is overrated, and might be worse than Magic who's first two rings he heavily benefited from having the best player in the NBA at the time on his team?? ok ig I've always been more of a Tim Duncan 3rd all time guy myself but these arguments aren't necessarily the greatest in full context of his career lol
Saying Magic robbed Kareem’s FMVP in 1980 is a little funny because it perfectly resembles the idea that “Kareem doesn’t get held to the MJ or lebron standard.” Cause god forbid if lebron got hurt in 2016 missing game 7 and Kyrie hit the warriors with a 50 piece and blows them out to lead the cavs to the title or if MJ got hurt and missed game 6 against the blazers in 92 with an injury and Scottie dropped a 40 point triple double winning the title and blowing the blazers out by 50, the amount of crap they would get is absurd, but Kareem misses game 6, magic steps into the center role and drops 42, 15, and 7, blows the sixers out by the biggest margin of victory of any win the entire series, and wins the ring. Y’all would say MJ and lebron was holding their teams back being out there if that happened to them.
As a rule centre's need good guards because they need player's to get the ball to them. Point guards are the opposite, they can often drag a bad team to the playoffs in because they are on the ball at the start of plays.
stop it get some help... what we have here ladies and gentlemen is a lebron fan who feel the need to bash other greats to boost him up... sure sure lebron passed kareem in points with all the doctors and all easy these days.. you know what else lebron surpass kareem with turnovers! i rest my case...
@@boydriceisawesome2520That fact that you called him a LeBron fan when he has never been one shows that you just heard what you wanted to hear. Grow up.
All the logic being used to take away from Kareem can basically be applied to LeBron , Kareem still has more MVPS and Finals wins along with a ton of other awards , he has LeBron beat in that stuff other then LeBron playing longer , that is all Lebron has over Kareem in terms of those type of things , Lebron just broke his scoring title so they will probably finish close there , sell me why LeBron is ahead of Kareem? because most of use only saw one of them play? I am not just trying to crap on LeBron it's just when I do these lists in my head I have a hard time putting him in my top 5. I do agree though that Kareem is in a bubble with 10-ish other players that there is not wrong answer, just MJ is Goat then a group of 10 that it depends. If anything this video should have been about Hakeem , Everyone lost to The MJ Bulls taking away titles from players like Hakeem making him not stand out as much as he should. edit:: after watching you did cover this well and brought up stuff I didn't think about.
Like all time greats, he has a multifaceted argument for why he is the best player ever or close to it. Intentionally or not, you’re just parroting the league and ESPN hype men for Lebron when you say Kareem’s only argument was longevity, which is extremely reductionist and illogical, and supposedly naturally puts Lebron above him in the pecking order, and supposedly makes Kareem less special so you can knock him down a few pegs. Like Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Russell and others, there is so much to his case. And just because it’s marketable these days to declare Jordan and Lebron are definitely the best ever and anything different is not up for discussion, it’s obvious to all fans that there is a huge financial incentive for media members, the league, and successful content creators to try to shove this down our throats as if it’s incontrovertible.
Bruh I been rocking with your channel for a minute and I respect your basketball knowledge but you are tweaking on this one Kareem is easily in the top 3 best players of all time.
With someone like Kareem I think the more valid point is bringing up all the losses he had in the playoffs against teams that weren't really much if at all better than his Bucks. Like all greats lost some games they could've won but Kareem's whole career was full of those disappointments till magic joined him. The only year he won the chip Jerry west was injured no playoff games for him that year and the rest of the competition Wasn't good at all they both only won 42/41 games. In my opinion what makes the greats like MJ lebron Curry so great is when they are clearly the reason you won without lack of competition when they make the difference and pull something off that just shouldn't happen otherwise. Lebron with his whole 2nd cavs run was just unbelievable MJ being the clear best player in a more 1 superstar league vs the Suns, Sonics, Jazz, Curry while wining in a weaker year being pretty much the main reason the warriors dominated the Celtics and other competition i don't remember. And that 2016 warriors team that so many have as one of the best teams ever they weren't what I'd call stacked Curry, Green, Klay don't exactly scream superteam especially in that era of superteams. If anything on paper Lebron, Kyrie, Love sound like a better duo.
Did he just use true shooting when Kareem didnt shoot 3s😭 you’re surprised they scoring more points when they taking 3s and taking more shots? lol horrible argument
Kareem should be the all time leader in blocks. It wasn't a stat the first few years of his career but even if you gave him his career lows he would pass hakeem, but i guess that would be longevity too
I feel like for the most part despite all the disagreements I think most NBA fans have the exact top 12 players. Jordan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaw, Kobe, Steph, Duncan, Wilt, Russell, and Kareem. Not my order, but I think almost everyone has that twelve in some order.
One thing to note is that at least some of his MVP's were also player voted which makes them a bit less valid in my eyes lol. If players voted on MVP these days I think we'd get ridiculous results like KD would have 4 of em or something lol
A take is a take, but I think theres a lot wrong with the logic on this one. Saying he won MVPs because he was ny far the best player in the league so no one else could win them and holding that against him seems so backward to me. He's the best player in the league, so he wins MVP, that's a positive.
Holding his longevity against him is also flawed. He was the unquestioned best player in the league for a decade, there are only 2 players who you can give this accolade to in MJ and LeBron. Then analysing his final years of a 20 year career to knock him, when only LeBron can hold a candle to the perfomance levels that late in your career is also a poor argument. He was good enough to play, and play at an elite level, for that long - its a positive.
Bringing up his per 100 scoring stats, which are elite, and then comparing stats to pure scorers, without acknowledging the defence in conjunction with those stats doesn't give you a full picture.
Ultimately its so hard to compare eras, from style to average level of the NBA at a given moment. But greatness is greatness, Kareem would trancend any era. He's my number three by quite the margin.
Well know pure scorers LeBron James and Michael Jordan? Well known pure scorer Steph Curry? That’s all their games are? Pure scoring? Nothing else noteworthy about their games at all?
@ClareAmel LeBron and MJ are clear, we all know this. No one is arguing that Kareem is better than them, so I wasn't referring to them.
Rusty compares him to KD and James Harden and uses this to emphasise it with the "even James Fucking Harden". Also, when I say pure scorer I don't mean that's all they do, but that is main aspect of the game they're known for.
Steph is my favourite player and is essentially an alien, he's got a lot about his game but he's not even in the same league of a defender as Kareem.
I'm not saying that you can't use it as a point, but you can't single it out without taking the other aspects of Kareems game into context
@@hdanliam4268i honestly have kareem over jordan
Using the per 100 that didn't exist when he won scoring titles to talk about scoring was boldly idiotic lol
@@LegendGamer-dj8omand ur a casual cause u probably have Lebron over mj too which is just as disgusting
I don’t like the “he had no competition” argument. Cause it has nothing to do with the player themselves and is basically punishing people for being too much better then their competition.
With that logic you must have Bill Russell as your Goat then .
@@mathis8007 I feel like there should be an element of how you compare to your contemporaries element in greatness debate, because that's the only context you can get. You cant compare Russell and Bron, even MJ and Bron feels hard to compare across eras, but they were both so far ahead of everyone they played against for so long.
@@mathis8007 even if you put kareem in the 80's as a rookie the dude would still average the same thing and would still win MVP's do you really think anyone in the league can stop Prime Kareem? when fucking OLD kareem was still cooking the league?? kareem would still win MVP's with those insane numbers and his competition wont even matter..
@@legenddaryl537 guess what: he didn’t therefore your argument= irrelevant. You wanna know what he did: cook the league so hard during his prime he won a singular ring as the undisputed 1st option .
@@mathis8007 I mean more individually. It’s dumb to say that an MVP being competitive is way better than it having an obvious winner. I get that people like narratives
Rusty confirmed the kid's dad from Airplane
Hehe, wonder how many will get that reference
I don’t care what Rusty says about KAJ. I think he’s the greatest, but my dad says he doesn’t work hard enough on defence…
masterclass joke
W reference
He's also in The Stand as the bring out your dead guy. "He's coming for you Larry. The man with no face."
Rusty doing his best to bring todays cancerous twitter arguments back to the past disgusting
I'm not trying to mess with your head by "hating" because mental health is important but you are objectively wrong with this take. (I'm not sure if you're saying he can't be third or your puzzled why so many have him at 3)
One thing I noticed about you and your friend's rank for players in your podcast, y'all care way too much about ppg on high efficiency. Placing guys with high usage and above average efficiency below guys who are asked to do less, spend less energy on offense and hit less contested shots from 3. It's absurd. (Unless you believe that Mikal Bridges got worse, when he clearly added more aspects to his game)
By any standard in comparison to his peers, Lew Alcindor/KAJ was the best player in the world at UCLA before he graduated. Yes, better than anyone in the league. You've heard the saying, you can't teach height and that's a big reason why he had the Longevity. In his prime, the man is a good amount taller than Shaq, mobile, and explosive. I don't know how you can bust a nut talking about Wemby as much as you do and not realize that Kareem takes advantage of the same things compared to his era.
Speaking about eras, you can't compare them. It's extremely hard especially when you're using a statistics without context. Using the Sacramento Kings as an example Sabonis has more assists than Chris Webber but he's not a better playmaker. DHO are more prevalent and spacing in the paint is at an all time high. However using your logic, I could make the argument that Sabonis is the superior playmaker.
You can be the best player in the world and not win. Your philosophy on why they weren't winning when he was at his prime is such a casual take that I contemplated unsubscribing. You recognize that you are comparing Kareem to '13 Lebron who was coached by Spo with Riley looking over it. Not to mention versatile Bosh and bum knee Wade (still very good). Another example is how Kobe was at his prime in between his 3rd and 4th championship and he could carry them to the second round.
I don't fault you for having a winning bias because even the most impartial sports fans do. We retrospectively say of course he's a winner but only after they win. You can research Dirk, Steph, and Jokic coverage before they won. I bring this up to say I can feel your dislike for James Harden when discussing that even he was much more efficient as if he wasn't one of the best scorers in the league. In his prime, he could score from every on the court and was a Chris Paul hamstring away from a championship going through the team a lot of people claim is the best ever constructed. Put some respect on his name.
I know you listen to thinking basketball. You don't have to agree with all of their points, but you have to make more convincing points or people will confuse you with a hot take machine, fishing for outrage.
Yes, you can talk about competition because even being the best player in the league, he only won one chip while, half of the best players in the world were in another league for half of the decade and missed the playoffs multiple times. You think Mj doing that or Lebron or Magic or Duncan or Kobe? No they’re not, Kareem is a magic merchant
Scorched buddy. Lmao
@@Monk-c8bwho were half the best players during the 70s guys playing in the ABA where most teams were defunct in a year. The ABA also had a chance to get Kareem but failed when George Mikan convinced him to play for the NBA. The Man won in his second year with an over the hill Oscar Robertson. And played against Nate Thurmond, an old yet dominant Wilt, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes and Willis Reed during the 70s; that's more than Shaq had to deal with in terms of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson and Mourning during the 90s and Yao during the 00s. Kareem was still dominant during the 80s but the media loved Magic and Bird so like Dr. J he was shafted for the Bird and Magic rivalry.
@@Monk-c8balso the playoff system was 8 teams out of 17 could make and the top teams had a buy in the first round best of three, and in missing had Kareem not had eye injury issues his teams would've made it every year
@@Hexboyfren the Aba had Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Rick Barry and George gervin who all would’ve been top 10 if they had been in the nba
I understand dismissing the 70’s entirely supports your case, but not even mentioning the multiple championships won by the Knicks and the Celtics, or the record breaking season of the Lakers is not fair at all. You can declare he had no real competition for championships, and that on his greatness alone he should have won multiple titles easily, but that contradicts the realities of that era, and it contradicts the reality of this era too, to some degree. So come on now.
The Celtics and Knicks weren’t that good. Yeah, they’re great teams, they got to the Finals multiple times and won, but they aren’t among the best or even better half of all Championship teams. The Lakers in 72 or 73 were that level, but that’s all. We Unseld FMVP? The Trailblazers beyond Bill? The Sonics?
These weren’t legendary teams
@@Jonathan-A.C. Wes Unseld was basically just a smaller Bill Russell and he had Elvin Hayes on his team who averaged 24/14 during his prime, and Walton was literally the MVP and still was surrounded by other All Stars, neither of those teams were weak
@@donali9020
They weren’t horrible, but they didn’t last beyond their title year. It’s one thing to individually have a good year against decent competition, but it’s another for a Magic Lakers dynasty to go up against a Bird Celtics dynasty
@@Jonathan-A.C.the 73 Knicks have 8 hall of famers on the team what are you talking about lol
@@spiritstorm2892
Knicks were a good team, you’re right. But they weren’t just “8 HOF’ers level”. They had a great squad and some role players as of 73, but outside of the 5 themselves, Lucas was getting older, Reed himself was even getting older (obviously was still FMVP level, to be clear), and Phil became one as a coach. They had HOF’ers in the coaching and as president, but these aren’t necessarily the players. They were too good of a team for me to include in the list originally, but they also aren’t comparable to more modern teams and especially top 20 teams all time. They were just really really good in the 70’s (especially early 70’s), which was otherwise a weaker era.
I’ll also add this though. It’s weak in areas certain other eras are strong in, and strong in areas other eras are weaker in. 80’s western conference was cheeks outside of a couple of teams, as an example
You never mentioned watching ANY film of “Washed Kareem”. Anyone who watched the 85 Finals film knows that Worthy was nowhere near arguably better than Kareem & that the series changed because of Kareem not Magic. You need to watch film instead of creating blind narratives with stats
They don’t know and never will. Surest 2 points in the game…ever
Longevity merchant....... That sounds like a LeBron thing, but sure let's sh*t on the old players
The more time passes the worst his takes get .
I think longevity is a good thing, no? Taking care of your body and health, so you can contribute at a high level even after your prime is over?
If that's what you tool from this, then you were not listening.
@@arturbondarenco2155 that's also true, as long as it's not your main argument for a fabricated goat case.
NOBODY cared about the all time scoring until LeBron started getting close to #1 .
That's what bugs me . Calling LeBron the goat or the Greatest scorer because he scored the most points is ridiculous.
Nobody was calling Kareem the greatest scorer ever or Malone the 2nd Greatest scorer ever .
@@matthieusaade3616facts, man. How the heck the guy with just 1 scoring title(even Curry has more), with no reliable jump shot or elite go-to move makes you the greatest scorer ever?
@@urbaindelva7869tool
Please keep the same energy for Lebron.
They don’t
Except LeBron has been completely dominant for his entire career. Not the same.
@@jaceygaither2581 what Kareem was the best player from his rookie year until year 12 so that 12 year of being the best player in the league and best offense and defensive player no body else has done that and he was still putting up good numbers after 23 22 22 22 24 all in his late 30s still a major piece on championship whining team but my bad just stats matter
@@jaceygaither2581 how can you be dominant when you lose majority of the time?
@@redhorsepapidon’t talk basketball if ur actually asking this question
Yeah you’re smoking rocks with this one. He literally has the a case for GOAT basketball player in every level
Definitely Top 3 behind MJ and Bron
@@kjjr3270LeBum 2nd best player all time??? Ahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahaha
Not even top 5, arguably not top 10
@@kjjr3270Bron 2nd best all time???😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
LeFlop isn’t TOP 5, arguably not even TOP 10
@@BeerAndJointsAllDay and yo mama a bich who gets passed around the streets so wassup 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
I remember when BSOLZ made this same argument and he got roasted 😂
Because it’s stupid 🤣
Rightfully so I hope rusty is too
@@ethanbrown4628it’s really not tho lol
They hate you for being right
Bill Russell No.1 everyone else can fight for second.
I think this might be your worst take since you argued that John Wall is the best PG in the league like 7 years ago. I’ve been watching for long enough that I’ll try to watch the vid with an open mind
You didn’t even watch the video to see his points before you came in the comments to glaze Kareem
@@Top1Big23 you didn’t even read my full comment apparently 🙄
crazy to comment before even watching the vid 🤣
The fact that you commented this before watching the video is exactly the problem lmao
It’s a W take
Love the channel, but I have to disagree with a number of your points:
*_Not enough winning before Magic_*
Kareem is a classic center; he doesn't bring the ball up, and he doesn't initiate offense. His job is to score and play good defense, both of which he did at the highest levels. It is almost universally understood that a great center needs a great lead guard, and before Magic the best Kareem had was an old Oscar Robertson. Despite this, he went to two Finals with Milwaukee, winning the first, and going seven games in the second. To be fair to Oscar, he played well in that first run, but was a much lesser player in the second. Either way, Kareem was excellent, and was arguably better in that second run against the Celtics. Why didn't he also win in LA? I don't know, but Kareem was still doing his job as an elite two-way player.
*_Problematic Efficiency_*
You used true shooting % and then compared him to a bunch of modern wings who shoot threes. I don't think you're trying to be disingenuous, but that's pretty unfair. Kareem shot well over 50% from the field every season of his career besides his final one, and had some seasons at/around 60%. He also shot 72% from the free throw line for his career, which is quite good for big man. It should also be noted that he was doing this at a time with no spacing, and no illegal defense, so guys could just camp in the paint.
*_Did most of his winning after teaming up with Magic_*
Right, and Magic had Kareem. I don't know why you're intent on discussing Kareem as if he was a bum during the 80s, but he averaged over 20 ppg (both in playoffs and regular season) for the majority of that run. And up to about '86, he was no worse than the second best center in the league (I'd give the nod to Moses Malone). Point is, they were great together, and they built on each other's skillsets. Shaq may have won all the Finals MVPs during the Lakers' threepeat, but they don't win any chips without Kobe's play, as well.
I think it's fine if you don't think Kareem belongs in the top 3 (I still think his GOAT argument is strong), but let's be fair about our assessments. To me, Kareem's career just shows how imperfectly things can go if you don't have the right system around you. And this is true no matter how good you are.
Rusty boiling him down to an "18 an 7 Guy" when that was at the tail end of his career, really tells you all you need to know of how dismissive Rusty is of Kareem as a 2nd option.
Rusty did backflips to prop up Curry's "gravity" last video but is completely dismissive of the idea Kareem as a 2nd option and his gravity as a scorer.
You needed to respect Kareem when his back was against the basket, that never went away just because he was the 2nd option.
There was basketball before positionless game, and Kareem owned it for a decade
@@Airborn218 60% on the sky hook, and he literally shot them anywhere from key to 3, that's on Steph's level shooting the 3.
@Therealwanderingyooper how did he own it if he only won a ring after he got another top 3-5 player alongside him (Oscar)?
@@edwardaverros3028 yes
What I find interesting is that when people state their all time starting 5, they’ll often pick Shaq over Kareem despite claiming him to be greater
Shaq had a higher peak but it lasted too short in terms of career greatness
I love that half of your points are stuff that Kareem has no control over and a few more completely lack context. You also fail to realize that some of the points you made against Kareem can also be used against LeBron who you say is by far better than Kareem. Just goes to show that y'all don't actually like basketball and pretty much just use it to pathetically assert your intellectual superiority which in truth is just a sign that you're chronically online.
So true. Its apparent that a lot of these types have never set foot on a basketball court.
Yayyyy another episode of “Sh!tting on the Greats of yesteryear”… This is getting old…
I've seen rusty do tricks on JJ Reddick's takes. Not surprised.
Not to speak on other statements he’s made, but the stuff about Kareem here is pretty clear and objective. It might not be accurate (I think it is), but it’s not just shitting on them because “oh, they’re bad”. Competition isn’t even mentioned that much here. In fact, it’s worse, because assuming he had bad competition in the 70’s, him not winning more than 1 ring is a bad look
This is stupid and the shit is old.
Kareem won an MVP in a season where he didn’t make the playoffs, genuinely disgusting
The Lakers had better records than some teams that made the playoffs that year
@@manamongstboyz8956stop trying to justify that weak stuff dude won a whole bunch of weak mvps that should hold no weight
@@Top1Big23 and you’re pointing out one MVP season. The guy has 5 others on 50 and 60 win teams. That would still have him as one of the goats. You’re just pushing an agenda
@@pemp9606 Kareem is still top 10 fahso but he ain’t top 3 and that’s ok I’m glad Rusty made this video exposing him
Have you ever seen Steve Nash’s numbers the yrs he won MVP? I think THAT may be worse
This is one take I can't get behind. Rick Barry missed only the first two years of Kareem's career. Kareem also had good competition during the early part of his career - Unseld. Hayes, Cowens, Lanier, Reed, McAdoo, Haywood, Thurmond, young Walton, even old Wilt. Let's trade the 1976 MVP for the one which Kareem lost in 1973 despite the Bucks having a 60-22 record and Kareem doing better than Dave Cowens (the Celtics had 68 wins that year) statistically. Some of the MVP voting in that period was strange, like Bill Walton winning in 1978 despite playing only in 58 games. As for the 1980 MVP he was still the best performer on the team. Putting it all on Magic was a stretch. Furthermore, Kareem carried the Lakers in the 1980 Finals with an average of 33 points though he missed Game 6. Well, we will still credit Magic for what he did but it wasn't like Kareem did nothing.
As for longevity, try running your numbers on the average length of careers NBA players had during that period. Rest and recuperation were not on the list of most NBA players in that era, especially with the rampant drug problem and the lifestyles players led back then. Kareem's discipline enabled him to play impactful basketball far longer than his contemporaries, though maybe in the last three years it was clear Magic was already carrying the team.
We have to admit that for some part of the '70s the existence of two leagues left some guys off their peak competition, but in Kareem's case his first five years he still had good veterans to compete against, and the majority of his career was post-merger. Minimizing his accomplishments by your logic also diminishes whatever Russell, Wilt, West, and Robertson achieved. It becomes reductionist in the sense because of how we are trying to compare accomplishments across eras. Let's also not take away his accomplishments in high school and college. In fact, I would argue Kareem is underrated because he hardly got great press.
Even if everything you say is true--I don’t think it solidifies him as number 3 no questions asked.
Having a ranking across eras is like choosing your favorite food at the best restaurant - it's a matter of personal preference and what context you use. You could add any value to whatever kind of evidence you present. I'm not a Kareem fan, but we can't reduce a career to numbers without context. I'd rather we enjoy the games and then shoot the sh*t about which players we like. I know Rusty was click-baiting but we have to call out poor arguments when they arise.
@@willingexile3374Nice for someone to admit how subjective goat talks are. You're comparing a damn 7 footer to a 6'2 guard unironically and telling me the 7 footer's better.
Or comparing 2 players who played 40 damn years apart. And the metric for measuring greatness shifts greatly.
For me personally greatness is a mix of influence and hard work. So Kobe's mine. Numbers don't favor him at all, but to me that's a guy who hurt his longevity because of how much he was practicing and working on his game. That's maximized potential.
I do agree that this debate really sucks, imagine being an NBA player and doing your best your whole career then have thousands tear you down till the day you die because you're not some genetic anomaly.
Comparison is the thief of joy, yet nba fans love nothing more.
I hope one day this trend settles down.
A couple of counterpoints here. While the NBA in the 1970s was definitely weaker due to competition with the ABA, it wasn't weaker at the center position. The only real elite center the ABA had was Artis Gilmore. Yes Wilt was older, but he was still leading the NBA in rebounds and probably would have won defensive player of the year once or twice in the 70s had the award existed at that time. Also, Kareem had to compete against HOF centers from the 70s such as Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Nate Thurmond, and Dave Cowens, all of whom were in their peak during the 70s before the ABA merger, and were better than every ABA center except for Gilmore. The ABA was more of a wings and guards league. He also played against peak Gilmore and Bill Walton after the merger.
Also, when comparing Kareem's per 100 numbers like TS%, those numbers are going to be lower for players from the 60s, 70s, and early 80s because the league as a whole was a lot less efficient during that time. So, it's not really a fair comparison to compare his efficiency numbers to Curry, Durant, or even Jordan. What is fair is to compare the difference between his offensive rating and defensive rating, which those same statistics that you highlighted showed Kareem with a 22 point difference (116 Offensive rating vs 94 defensive rating), better than Curry (121 vs 107, a 14 point difference), Durant (119 vs 103 a 16 point difference), and Jordan (121 vs 103, an 18 point difference).
I agree with some of your other points, that he won only 1 championship in the 70s and maybe 3 at tops as the best player for a championship winning team. His rebounding and block shot numbers also took a major hit during the 80s, and he wasn't the same athletic player that he was in the 70s. And there were definitely a lot of ABA players that could have competed with him for MVPs had they played in the NBA (or if the two leagues merged sooner). Overall, I think you have a good case, but I think that this little bit of nuance should still be considered.
Nick Write putting Kareem as 2nd and Micheal Jordan as 3rd in his all time rankings was probably one of the most elaborate agenda driven takes ive ever seen on. Basketball.
Same guy who chose Dallas in 6 a monstrously embarrassing prediction even without any level of hindsight
You’re calling him overrated cuz you think he’s like 4/5 and most ppl think he’s 3 that’s not a big difference
well he DID say *SLIGHTLY* overrated at the beginning of the video
@@i.qena_To say anyone else is takes his 3 spot is overrating that player tho 😭😭 Saying Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Russel, Duncan, Kobe are third over him would be insane
@@16montana24kobeShaq and Russell and maybe wilt have a case but anyone else is dumb.
@@16montana24kobeNow I would say Magic and Duncan have a case but anyone else hell nah.
@@ebenezeronile If people wanna go by how the arguments were back in the day then you have to Bird there too since Magic and Bird were considered tied :3
Kareem owned the 70’s with very few good teammates. He always was/is a gentleman, respect
The aba merger argument is probably one of the more misleading arguments. There’s only 2 ABA players who won the nba mvp and to even call Moses an aba player is stretching it. Many of the nba players who couldn’t last in the league became respectable and even at points stars in the aba, and outside of literally two guys, many of the aba stars saw declines in their production because the nba was genuinely harder one of those guys being Dr J himself. This is a guy who was pretty much a 27-30 pointer scorer and he dropped to 22 point scorer, doesn’t help that the first time those aba guy came to town, the first mvp and first champion were still nba players. The fact that Kareem still rang two more mvps is more than clear enough that aba or no aba players he’d still be the best guy
The playoffs were best 2 of 3 and then 3 of 5 back then. That’s why it was easier to have upsets in the playoffs. How many great players today would have been upset with that playoff format l
Respect your opinion but this feels like dipping into analysis paralysis territory.
That’s a cool ass term
Full credit to the author for taking advantage of modern society where low IQ proclamations generate lots of buzz...
I think you made some overall good points and some points I'd disagree with. Personally, I have Kareem as my interchangeable #3 with Bill Russell, and I grant them a sort of "special" GOAT argument.
I think Kareem's longevity does get overstated a bit, and he was a glorified role player for his last two titles. The thing I strongly disagree with is how you went about discussing his MVPs. His first two are among the very best seasons ever. 1974 and 1977 are amazing MVPs, and 1980 is a pretty good one. 1976 is the only one I'd take away from him because of the losing record.
And then on paper, yes, it is puzzling how a player can be so much further ahead of the next guy (except Dr. J in the ABA) while only winning once, but honestly, every time he lost EXCEPT 1973, you can't really blame him. He lost to the Knicks in the midst of their first title run. Then he lost to one of the greatest teams ever in the 1972 Lakers. He battled the mid 70s Celtics till a game 7. He played amazing basketball against a just better Trailblazers team. And then at the end of the decade, he was facing the late 70s SuperSonics which went to two straight finals. His help was good, not great up until the 70s, and I disagree with the mentions of Norm Nixon and Jamaal Wilkes as some sort of proof that he did have great teammates for the entirety of the 70s.
In general, I think his 70s run is underrated, while his 80s run is overrated. I think Kareem as a player, is by most people, fairly rated.
This guy is gonna upload in ten years with the argument: "LeBron is overrated because he only won 1 ring is LA with a consistent all-star teammate."
I personally add points to Kareem's legacy because of the political activism he did off the platform of his sporting fame. Much like people do with Muhammad Ali. That being said i still have him as number 3 in my ranking (guess who they might be). Totally makes sense for people to have him lower.
@thoughtstealin this is a casual take and watch what you say About Muhammad Ali .just say you don't know nothing About Basketball they changed the Rules in NCAA because of Kareem and Kareem won a championship at every level and he was considered the GOAT before Michael Jordan
@@darnellwilliams8783 he seemed like he was complimenting Kareem to me. His activism should be celebrated. MJ has cared solely about MJ his entire life.
@@darnellwilliams8783blud missed the point horrendously
@@darnellwilliams8783Didn’t know people who can’t read can write essays
The political activism is cool and all but has nothing to do with his game
I’m probably one of the few people that actually have magic over Kareem
Nah, I do too. For me, it is a pretty clear argument, to be honest. Magic dominated in a slightly more difficult era. Post ABA merger with a hyper competitive 80's throughout the whole decade.
And bird over magic is even more logic
One was important to the community, one had aids, checkmate.
@@Manolo8988same. Bird, Magic, Kareem is the middle of my top 10 players of all time
Magic saved Kareem’s legacy. Kareem had 5 MVPs but hadn’t made it back to the finals since Oscar Robertson retired.
While I don’t totally disagree with your assessment of Kareem being SLIGHTLY overrated, you omitted something pretty glaring about his last 3 championship runs: He justifiably won the ‘85 Finals MVP averaging a 26-9-5 on 60% shooting, even elevating his play in the last 2 games to put up a 36-point effort in Game 5 and 29 points in Game 6 (both wins for LA). Magic was better in the early rounds that year, but Kareem brought it home in the end.
Old man Wilt gave Prime Kareem a fit in head to head matchups. Sure Kareem outscored him, but Kareem also took twice as many shots. They split wins 50/50. I can only imagine how much better a prime Wilt would have handled Kareem.
well he’s the collegiate goat, and the social justice goat, and he had rules made to stop him, and he nearly destroyed the nba with his dominance in the ‘70s because viewers were just getting bored. and he was a great defender for most of his career unlike some names like curry and kd that might be in that 3-11 range of all-time players. playing up until 41 and being the 3rd best player of a dynasty in the 80s arguably makes him the durability goat too.
i dont know why its particularly an issue that he is for most people undisputedly 3rd.
This is by far your worst take. To evaluated Kareem without mentioning that he was both the greatest high school AND college player ever is a pretty glaring oversight. The guy lost 6 games total over 7 years and won 3 state, 3 National and 3 NCAA titles before ever entering the NBA. He then won MVPs, FMVP, and an NBA almost immediately after entering the league. He played for 20 seasons and won 4 titles in his last 5 seasons. And sure Magic was better than him by the end, just like AD outplays Lebron these days, or Kobe outplayed Jordan on the Wizards. But when the Lakers needed to win a game at the buzzer, go watch who has the ball in his hands. Cause it was Kareem, every fucking time.
High school and college achievements have no bearing on where he should rank in terms of the greatest “NBA” players of all time.
this is the problem, ya'll have this undying loyalty to a version of kareem that exists in your heads that ya'll forget all logic, for no other player do we look at things like olympic play or college career, and yet people never fail to bring that crap up for Kareem, stop blindly looking at resumes and actually watch basketball. If u don't actually love hoops then basketball reference is right there
@@jonnstewart2023his basketball reference is still top 2 of all time 🤣🤣🤣
We're talking about highschool rn? Rlly?
He is not the greatest high school player ever, Lebron is, college sure, but not high school.
I honestly would argue hes underrated. Kind of in the same way a lot of people from that period are underrated.
Also I think his cultural impact on the game is underrated. I think him being one of the first mainstream Muslim athletes is huge for a lot of people, not that it compares to MJ or LeBron but for the time that's pretty incredible
You young pundits really need to leave the older eras alone. You're adding nothing to the sport and proving that numbers don't always tell the story.
Kareem has to be the most unanimous number. 3. Ranking of any player outside of Jordan and LeBron. It's weird that the from 1:00 to 3:00 is pretty consistent
It continues to happen. Young guys say new players are better. Old guys defend older players. Let me say. "I hate kareem."
But.
The most unstoppable, unblockable shot ever was terrifying.
You know that picture of jordans shot in 98? The crowd knew they were done. Or toronto fans when bron come to town. That was the entire nba for a decade and a half.
Yes he needed help to win tittles. Do does everyone. He missed the playoffs when things went bad, just as jordan and bron did.
Only 3 guys have completely dominated a decade since the 50s. He is one of them.
60 percentile and 60 percentage are two very different things when it comes to midrange shots. One is above average while the other is "unstoppable".
The fact he got the dunk banned for a while is the reason I hold him that high cuz how bad you had to dawg folks for them to do that in college 😭
Very hot take, with very spotty reasoning. Pre merger was still a very competitive League, with many great players and teams. Which is why no team during that era won more than one ring. Also, mvp’s do not directly correlate to rings.
Ice cold take. Holding his longevity against him is insane. Short of Bill Russell's Celtics he won more championships across all levels of basketball than anyone else ever. Is he in my top 3? No. But hes not overrated.
He’s in most people’s top 3s though and even put in the GOAT convo by some people, which means he is overrated
if we're talking about basketball in general then fine but using the fact that he won "at all levels" means nothing in an NBA discussion
@@BT405 If what's at issue is lessening impact later in your career, longevity being held against you, yes it does matter. Playing at a league ready level in highschool and 4 years at college at the highest level puts miles on your legs and 100% should be credited. Dude played basketball at an elite level for damn near 30 years. Picking and choosing what you want to credit him for and discredit him for to fit a preconceived opinion is by definition bias. If you want to hold Kareem's later years against him, keep that same energy with Wizards Jordan.
@@ClareAmelrussell aint in no top 3s bro u capping
He at the most is at 5 and is rare most of time he is disrespected cause he played in the 60s and most of people dont even have him in the top 10
@@ClareAmelso Lebron and Jordan are overrated?
3 players in the history of NBA were hyped since day 1, lived up to that hype, managed to make a huge carrier with multiple trophies and records and left back a legacy even bigger than their NBA carrier(Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan and Lebron James). You can add 2 or 3 players on that list but thats all
I whole heartedly agree.
This comment section cannot differentiate between overrated and bad, or so it seems.
Kareem also was a slight playoff dropper as when facing the top centers in playoff series, he'd get outperformed even at his peak a lot of the times. His longevity is very overrated, he wasn't good for all 20 seasons like people make it out to be, his last 5 seasons were no where near elite.
Also people tend to overrate his dominance cause I also feel like he severely benefited from the ABA, as you could argue ABA > NBA back in the 70s, his numbers were a lot worse after the NBA/ABA merger as well.
The ABA was NOT better than the NBA. There's people who couldn't hang in the NBA who switched and became decent roleplayers. Julius erving instantly dropped about 7 points when he got in the nba. Kareem's best scoring season in 1977
Facts
I completely disagree with you. I have always felt the opposite way, that Kareem has been under rated his entire career. He is the greatest college player of all time without a doubt, and he had to sacrifice four NBA years for UCLA years. Otherwise Lebron would have no chance of catching Kareem's points record. Plus, Kareem has moved MVPs of all time, with 6, and 5 of his 6 championships are completely legit where he was a key contributor. He clearly deserved 5 of his rings, and there is a case to be made he even deserved the sixth. The Skyhook was practically invincible, and it was an original shot played by Kareen. I have Kareen tied for 1 with Jordan and higher then Lebron.
Before getting into the main points, did you just compare points per possession and true shooting stats between a player who played more than half his career without three point shooting even being an option to a bunch of players in the three point era?
Even overall regarding the Black American Gods, mount Rushmore, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, I think Kareem is under rated. He has consistently dominated basketball, had an invincible skyhook, and was a major civil rights champion. So many icons from the 1980s who were preachy were exposed as hypocrites like Cosby and have been brought down etc. Kareem's legacy has gotten stronger. Kareem is lowkey one of the greatest Black Americans of all time. He is up there with Ali, Jordan, and Michael Jackson.
Lebron is basically the same lol a longevity merchant.
He was a great player for 14 or 15 seasons which is insane. And when I say great I mean he was the greatest player when he was great,
And someone had a really good point in this comment section his longevity is a really good point for him you can't hold it against him that LeBron is on modern supplements that are allowed and that exists now versus Kareem who couldn't use that cuz they didn't exist and the stuff that did exist were very very illegal (because I'm sorry if you think he is 100% natural you're a moron he is getting assistance it's just on the legal variety of their testing)
He was a great player who was truly exceptional for his time, and you can't hold his success against him because the 70s was an era of which we have never seen until recently where teams were so well-constructed that it was really hard to win, Oscar Robertson retired after he won with the bucks. And then those Lakers teams had no one else to help him, he got magic started winning again and had great seasons for a minute and then was gone because he got old he's still aged considerably well in comparison to most especially if you consider how much he weighed and how tall he was you compare him to shaq and it's not even close he is obviously the best player of those two and he aged way better,
He was a really good scorer I hate the argument that "oh he's not a good pure score because he doesn't have a bag!" If you're stupid just say it because everyone acknowledges Shaq was one of the best offensive players of all time he was one of the best scorers of all time because you couldn't stop him. Kareem was the same you couldn't really stop him,
Do you know the kicker of it is I don't really like Kareem I hate watching his highlights because it's really effective but also I think it is.... It's like the Tom Brady of basketball, Tom Brady besides those years with Randy Moss was just getting four to five yards consistently occasionally that 10 yd+ pass and that's how the game would go was it pretty? No it was ugly and you hated it because it worked so well and you were just going "please God can someone stopped him because you know what he's going to do" and that is the problem with Kareem is if he had a game as pretty as Allen Iverson everyone would think he was the greatest player ever because that would mean he would have a prettier game than Jordan and LeBron and all he did was really impressive, you would have arguments against him but he would be in the conversation quite easily because his game would look pretty. And conversely with my comparison Tom Brady was similar other players hated him so much that they prolonged their careers to make sure that he didn't have certain records he ended up with all of them you can't reject him he is the Kareem of football he has all the records when he retired and he's also like Bill Russell he has more super bowls than anyone ever,
So I guess closing note because I went on for a while. Kareem was a great player and it's a fallacy to put all of his value on his longevity. But it's also a fallacy to act like modern players don't have enhancements that they get from living in the modern day versus him banging out 10 years in the 70s and then almost making it to the 90s, he quite literally lived through an era where people still thought cocaine was somewhat good for you.
What gets me is the fact people didn’t start unanimously putting Kareem in the top 3 til the 2010s when LeBron started being seen as a threat to legends’ legacies. Even during the 80s, Kareem was viewed in contemporary time as not being better than Magic or Bird. Only long after he retired did people start revising history
In fairness this isn’t necessarily wrong, the same has happened with duncan. However i would agree that with kareem its more because people have went too far now rather than with duncan where it was more that people just underrated him in time.
I don't know, you might be older than me, but I remember in the early 2000s Kareem was considered a unanimous second best player ever
@@K-Dot94
Yep facts
Yes, all NBA opinions you don’t like are all part of a grand conspiracy against LeBron. Kareem was widely considered the greatest player of all time when he retired. Go look up newspaper articles from the time. Go read what people thought about him. And then come back and tell me that “no one thought he was top 3 until 2010”
Yep for the longest time after he was retired Wilt and even Oscar were ranked above him
All ik is the look on his face when LeBron beat his record tells me he thought it meant a lot more than it really does lol
This video makes me question LeBron’s longevity more than Kareem’s. Minus chips, every argument you could make against Kareem could also be applied to Bron and really every single GOAT candidate except Jordan
I feel like you commented this before watching the video. How does “he wasn’t the best player on a championship team” apply to LeBron? What, you gonna try to argue 2020? Some of Kareem’s MVPs being suspect, how does that apply to LeBron? Rusty even gives stats proving LeBron himself among others scored significantly more on a per possession basis than Kareem peak vs. peak.
You can only make your comment if you haven’t actually watched the video and you assume it’s just Rusty rambling about “longevity isn’t a big deal” for twenty minutes, which wasn’t his argument
@@ClareAmel
Yep, facts. Every point Rusty made, it would look more favorably for LeBron, besides strictly amount of MVP’s won, plus maybe winning that fast
@@ClareAmel yeah using a per 100 possession instead of using the numbers straight up so biased. The questionable MVPs isn't even an argument he's only arguing because nobody else was supposedly good enough to be better? Like how is that a legit argument isn't the best player supposed to get MVP? And he used winning rings while being the MVP and that's literally something you can do for LeBron
I disagree tbh. Kareems prime was wild. 34.8/16.6/4.6 + blocks that weren't recorded likely around 3-4. I'd love to know who else in nba history was putting up 35/17/5/3-4 in their prime, with dpoy defense. Maybe 3-4 ever?
And he has the second best longevity in nba history on TOP of the ridiculous peak. Only lebron can tout a longer, elite level career than Kareem, and Kareem played 4 years of college while Bron came out of highschool, meaning in his 20th season Bron is actually 3-4 years older than kareem was at the same stage of his career. The difference between a 38 year old athlete and a 42 year old athlete is massive. And the best years of his career were earlier, with his 2 best seasons being 1971 and 1972, his 2nd and 3rd years in the league respectively. Kareem literally averaged 29/15/4 in his rookie season, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that if Kareem had been allowed to come to the NBA sooner, Bron wouldn't have even sniffed the all time scoring record.
So he has top 5 peak, top 2 longevity, AND he was the most accomplished player of all time. He was a 6 time mvp (should have been around 8-9) and a 6 time champion, 15 time all nba, 19 time all star. He has the best trophy case in basketball and it's not even that close.
And the argument I hear a lot about how he "didn't win enough in the 70's" doesn't hold water to me. His best teammate in the 60's by a huge margin was Oscar Robertson, who was very good but fell off a cliff production wise after 1972 and he retired in 1974. Kareem didn't have an elite level guard on his team again until Magic in 1980, 10 years into his career. And nobody won consistently in the 70's, there wasn't a dynasty. It's the era with the most parity in nba history. But if you look at his 70's record it's very impressive.
In 1970 Kareem made the second round as his teams first option *in his rookie year* while averaging *35/17/4*, likely with 3-4 blocks tacked on as well. This is without Robertson btw.
In 1971 he immediately wins a title in his second season the literal first chance he gets now that he has a good second option in robertson. He averaged 32/16/3 and won finals mvp. He wouldn't get another title in the 70's but that requires context.
Kareem nearly dragged the bucks to a championship AFTER 1971. In 72 he lost to the lakers, who are one of the greatest teams of all time, with Gail Goodridge putting up 26/5/4, Jerry West putting 26/10/4 (West is the most underrated player of all time imo btw) and Wilt putting up 20/15/4 with likely 3-5 blocks per game (and who was the best defender in the league). Kareem averaged 34/17/5 on the year, including 34/18/5 in the wcf where he would lose to the eventual champ lakers in 6 games.
In 1973 Kareem averaged 30/16/5 but disappointed in the first round against the warriors.
In 1974 he got his team to the finals, and took the boston celtics (who won 2 titles in the 70s) to 7 games. He averaged 33/12/5 while robertson averaged 12/8/3. Not terrible from robertson but not exactly "second option on a finals team" numbers.
In 1975 he missed 17 games while his third best player Lucius Allen only played 10 games before getting traded and his 4th best player Jim Price missed 32 games. For significant stretches of the season the bucks 3rd and 4th best players were averaging 11/3/3 and 9/3/2. I'm not kidding, AND I rounded that up. The Bucks were also 3-14 in the games he missed, while they were above 500 when Kareem played because he averaged 30/14/4/3. Hardly his fault.
In 1976 he paired with Lucius Allen again, as well as a still productive, albiet much less productive Gail Goodridge. Kareem averaged 28/17/5/4, while Gail averaged 20/6/3/2 and Lucius Allen averaged 15/5/3. The only other people to average above 10ppg were Cazzie Russell and Donnie Freeman.
In 77 Kareem averaged 26/13/4/3 which for him is a down year. Goodridge was on the Jazz now, and only 2 of kareems teammates averaged above 10ppg. They were Lucius Allen and Cazzie Russell, who averaged 15/5/3 and 16/4/3 respectively. Hardly world beaters at this point, but Kareem still dragged that team to the western conference finals before losing to the eventual champion Portland Trailblazers in a sweep. Allen, his second best player missed half the series. That blazers team, with the same roster, went 50-10 the next year in games Bill Walton played and remains one of the most underrated of all time.
In 1978 Kareem averaged 26/13/4/3 on a much more well rounded lakers squad, with 8 players other than kareem averaging at least 10ppg and a genuinely great player in Adrian Dantley (albiet in his second season.) It should be noted Kareem missing 20 games after breaking his hand on Kent Bensons face probably has a lot to do with that. He would lose in the first round while his teammates dropped a scorching statline of 12/9/3 (Jamaal Wilkes, second most minutes), 17/8/4 (Dantley, third most minutes), 10/5/4 (Charlie Scott, 4th most minutes) and 12/3/3 (Lou Hudsen 5th most minutes).
In 1979 Kareem averaged 24/13/5/4. In the playoffs he would average 29/13/5/4 before losing in the second round. No one on the team averaged within 10 points of Jabbar, and imo the only players even worth mentioning are Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes and Dantley.
And then in 1980 he got Magic Johnson and averaged 32/12/4/3 in the playoffs, including 34/13 and FIVE BLOCKS in the finals to win the chip, while getting robbed of finals mvp.
IMO anyone who says Kareem is overrated just hasn't looked in depth at his career enough. If anything the guy is *underrated*.
But he was only the best player on his team for 1 championship. Imagine if that were true if LeBron or Jordan.
@@AustinMulkaMusic He was the best player in 1971, 1980 and arguably in 1985 when he was 38. He was inarguably the best on 2, debatably the best on 3.
And we aren't arguing that he was better than Jordan or Bron, we're arguing he's better than everyone else in the top 10.
if you give him 2 that's the same amount as Kobe, Wilt, Hakeem and Steph.
If you give him 1985 as well then he has 3, giving him more than those guys, and evening him up with Bird, Magic, Timmy and Shaq.
And there's no arguing who has the better case outside of rings between those guys and Kareem. I think he's pretty easily top 3.
Respect Rick Barry too but w shout out to one of my fav players in Jerry West. Criminally underrated.
@@donaldf9055 Rick Barry is definitely up there but imo people just forget about him rather than disrespect his greatness. People disrespect west rather than acknowledge him for the top 15-20 player he is.
@@Drakoth01 facts 💯. He was the best scorer in the 60's (people say wilt but he was significantly better as a scorer on the offs especially in the finals) was phenomenal offball, elite passer (led the league on assist), and elite defender. He's fs top 15 if people respect his era and who he was as a player.
But Rick Barry was just as good as a scorer, shot 90% at the line back at a time where shooting 80% was considered elite, was a terrific passer, and most importantly, no one talks about him ever. I don't even hear him be mentioned.
Lets be honest here Rusty used '83 maybe as the year Kareem won FMVP when Magic deserved, I get it there are millions of facts but for a HUGE vid disrespecting someone your research and script need to be infallible, and the '83 6ers are often commented as 1 of the top 5 teams all time, and there has been a ton of discourse around it since the GSW 73-9, then this year are the Cs a top 5 all time. So sorry Jacob you just invalidated this video and your whole take as ranting and raving of a madman.
U cant be tier one with 6 finals losses... LeBron had to join a champion Wade's team to get a ring 💍...
I rank Kareem as low as 5 with Shaq & Kobe higher and I still feel that this video is distasteful and kind of a hit piece on Kareem no matter if we rank him similarly.
Kareem is a monster from an athletic profile standpoint and a skill standpoint who benefitted from his era but could certainly benefit in almost any other era if he was dropped in. Especially/including now: 7’2/7’3, unstoppable sky-hook as a signature move that would translate today, but could certainly dunk and play above the rim, score in low and high post isolation, get easy buckets in a league that relies on bigs to just roll to the rim and clean up inside seals had a decent 10-12 foot jump shot that it’s safe to assume could stretch but just that is good enough to dominate todays league that despite the spacing upticks, everyone has atleast one big that either doesn’t shoot or doesn’t defend. Does anyone really think Kareem couldn’t be a monster today? Maybe you can say Bill and Wilt couldn’t but Kareem was different than them even when he was in college. He had a completely different level of skill and touch that he relied on that kind of made people over look that he could be imposing, especially early on.
He was an elite rim protector, honestly an underrated defender that would’ve had multiple DPOY’s if the award was around. The talent of the ABA wouldn’t phase him, he was simply better than Artis Gilmore, he was better than Dan Issel. If anyone’s game could translate from that era, it’s him. You can make arguments that his era detriments his legacy too.
And we all know Kareem in today’s age wouldn’t play a full career in UCLA, he’s going out in one year. So why do we begin our judgement or nitpicking of Kareem’s legacy and skill from age 31 on? And just say well his era was weak. Like we don’t have eye balls?
All just huge hypotheticals but I believe he’d dominate any era except maybe the best era of big men which was the 93-97 era with Shaq, Hakeem, David & Patrick Ewing: and depending on situation he could have more success than any of those guys/succeed the success of those guys if slotted into their situations.
But mind you I think Shaq is better than Kareem and rank Hakeem not far after Kareem.
I think Magic did what he was supposed to do when paired with Kareem, Kareem though his longevity was impressive was over the hill as far as his individual skill when Magic got there but that doesn’t detract from what he brought as the CENTER and aging second best player on that dynasty. Mind you he was the second best center in the league at the time at ages 32 until Hakeem was drafted, so how can we detract from his legacy just because he had Magic? Magic had him as well.
Kareem did everything that he was supposed to do from a career standpoint which is something you can’t even say for most of the greats. I would argue that he exchanged a dominant post peak for a longevity-inclusive post peak and we know that he had to sacrifice and change his entire play style when Magic got there for them to win. He couldn’t just isolate low post for entire games any more like his teams needed. I feel like highlighting his era, his true-shooting and that he got Magic are all silly arguments that all have easy counterarguments.
The fact is that at some point Kareem was going to end up with some kind of co-star(s), it’s happened for all the great big man except maybe Hakeem. It doesn’t detract from what he did and was without them and things he can’t control.
I want to clarify that when I say there’s an argument that his era detriments his legacy I mean that for an counterarguments sake to his legacy his era could have prevented people from understanding how dominant he was just because of the competition. Do i think he would win 5 MVPS and a ring before getting a costar in another era or today’s league? No. So in that sense his legacy is improved from his era but I also believe that he would be viewed as more dominant and less of this asterisked historical figure that we have to double think about how good he was bc of the weird era he’s from.
Because his game just.. holds up.
@@Hexboyfren
WAY too much free time on your hands
I feel like if we are gonna be on Wilt for winning just 2 rings against Bill in his prime while being the best player statistically in the era, we should do same for Kareem for winning one ring with a somewhat relevant squad in the weakest era of the organized basketball with really no real treats like the Bill Russel Celtics or Lakers
So we're judging him by standards that didn't exist when he played, using stats that don't exist for his best seasons, and thus he's not an all-time great scorer. This argument is garbage. You try playing 40+ minutes, including being the defense and then being asked to top your 28 ppg average so you can keep up with guys in the future on a per possession basis, when they all had this information to inform their game and he didn't. Also, being so far ahead of everyone else that you win MVP even when your team doesn't win, isn't a knock on him. MJ is the first 'best player in the NBA' to win a lot of titles without a team of all-stars around him and he had that for the second 3peat. Bill Russell was never the actual best player, just the best leader of stacked teams. Wilt didn't win much. Kareem and Magic won together, and with Worthy. Bird had McHale and Parrish. Kobe and Shaq had each other for 3 of their titles. Lebron has played with everyone. Curry had KD for 2 of his 4 and probably only got 2015 because Kyrie and Love were both out. Duncan is really the only other best player in the league who won a lot of titles without superstars around him and his teams were incredibly well built, if not fantasy basketball stacked. Moses Malone didn't win much. Hakeem only won 2. Kawhi has won twice, once before he was an actual superstar. Big O, Jerry West, KD any other best players in history, don't have a lot of titles. Jokic only has 1 and he's put in conversations at this level. Kareem has 6 MVPs and 6 rings. Those all followed being the best high school player EVER and the best college player EVER. He's in a tier above nearly everyone ever.
Yap session
He’s a GOAT candidate because of 32 PPG on 57 FG% / 76 FT%, 14.5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.2 SPG, 3.4 BPG for 53 straight playoff games ‘74-‘80, 70% of those playoff games in a post-merger era.
The front-to-back NBA stats speak for themselves.
For comparison, Wilt’s 52 playoff games ‘60-‘66 were statistically boosted by a pace of roughly 20+ possessions per game to the ‘74-‘80 period of Kareem. Wilt’s Warriors in ‘60, ‘61, ‘62 were especially high pace. They played at 132 possessions per game. Kareem’s teams ‘74-‘80 were 105, Wilt’s ‘60-‘66 were 125. NBA averages: 122 ‘60-‘66 vs. 106 ‘74-‘80.
Wilt avg 33 PPG on 50.5 FG% / 52 FT%.
How many PPG would Kareem avg w/20 more possessions per game?
Facts, after 1985 he was an Allstar calibre player. But people act like Magic having 40 year old Kareem in his prime is the same as Steph having peak KD in his prime.
Magic is the most underrated player today and Kareem in the 80’s is overrated for sure, but I can’t give you Hakeem. Kareem’s still top 4 AT LEAST
No I personally think Hakeem is better then Kareem seriously . For one I think he’s literally a better player snd he is one of the select few players I think from the 90s and prior that can be ported to any era as they are and actually still be the same player . Plus when you factor the rings Hakeem one without all star talent , while being the goat defender . Go watch nick wrights Hakeem olojuwan video , I think it will put into perspective how great he really was
@@necoharvey9736 hakeem was great but he didnt have the accolades.. hakeem had 1 MVP and 2 rings and its all SUS because MJ retired the same year hakeem won.. plus hakeem is nowhere near Kareem in his prime.. completely fucked up in the head if you think so.. kareem averaged 34 pts in a season playing 80+ games hakeem would never touch that.. plus hakeem defensively is not above kareem cause both players blocked alot of shots in their prime
@@necoharvey9736 and dude nick wright is a clown.. nobody believes anything that dude says.. only dumb people watch him and believes everything he says
Hell, I’d say Kobe.
Better competition, better pizza, Papa Johns
@@legenddaryl537
Hakeem I’d say is a better DPOY. Better competition, and more versatile. But, Kareem is probably better than him overall
Yeah this video is crazy..
Man, if this is how we doing the greats of the past, I can’t wait to see how we gonna shit on todays NBA players in the future.
Someone finally said it, with context at least.
I always thought about how Kareem & Duncan were similar to each other in this sense, career-wise. Everyone's quick to bring up accolades but missing a lot of context, especially for Kareem which you brought up in this video.
You leave so much out. You never ONCE mention his height and his body type compared to Lebron or others when talking about his longevity. For being a big man, compared to other all-time great big man, he was still making all-nba first teams well into his 30’s, and helping his team win championships during these years. You can’t even say that about other players I would rank ahead of him, like Russell or maybe Wilt, and also Hakeem and Shaq. He is an extreme outlier for longevity of playing at a high level for his BODY TYPE and height. And across all players, he is still one of the all-time bests at longevity at a high level, even though that naturally doesn’t favor men as ridiculously tall as him.
Agreed that it’s not obvious Kareem is number 3…definitely top 5 though. However, I think it’s kind of unfair to knock a guy for being so much better than everyone else in his era, and we all know that being the world’s best player doesn’t automatically translate to multiple rings. Also I think why Kareem is usually top 3 is because him, MJ and LeBron are really the only guys to be considered the undisputed best players of their era. 60s is Bill and Wilt, 70s Kareem, 80s Magic and Bird, 90s Jordan, 2000s Kobe and Duncan, and 2010s LeBron.
It's revisionist history to say Duncan was the best player of the 2000s. He was never in the discussion as an active player.
Bless your heart rusty. Been telling my buddies this for YEARS. I can accept he’s great but having him over magic or bird for me is outrageous. Although he was still dominant in the early 80s, he wouldn’t have gotten any of those 80s titles without magic. But people talk about him today like he was god’s gift to basketball and was always the best, just not true.
I know you work hard, and I mostly like your videos, but this is weak. Lot of shaky logic and surface level analysis. The kind of effort you’d find in a Twitter thread, not in 20 minute video.
Bro you need to watch Wes. He is a demigod of no stat effectiveness
If Kareem is a longevity merchant, then so is LeBron, who only has 4 rings for the supposed “GOAT”
I think the main argument, was that he was only the best player on his team for 1 of his championships. He averaged 18 pts and 6.7 rebounds for his last 3 championships.
LeBron was the best player on his team for all 4 championships. If LeBron was only the best player on his team for 1 championship, he wouldn’t even be top 10. LeBron has 4 finals MVPs. And most people have LeBron at 2. Not the GOAT.
@@AustinMulkaMusic I have LeBron at no. 2 as well, but let’s not pretend that LeBron isn’t a longevity merchant as well. He has 4 championships in a 23 year career, which isn’t terrific
If anything Kareem is underrated but we digress
So with lebron the longevity thing is a reason his jock sniffers say he is the goat.... but if someone else played for 20 years it's played out and they're overrated. Lmao k.
In LeBron’s case it’s longevity with three or four titles as the best player on the team whereas there’s one or two for Kareem as he said.
Both had great longevity for their respective generations either way.
@@fortynights1513 I'm not sure he was ever the best player on a winning team come clutch time. Wade carried him in the finals, then kyrie, then AD.
@@kyleshuler2929😂😂
@akshaynamburi6367 I agree. Him getting outplayed by a mid 30s jason terry in thee 2011 finals is pretty 🤣 😂
@@kyleshuler2929Neither Kyrie or AD "carried" LeBron in either of those championship runs. That implies that LeBron didn't hold up his end of the pairing, which is false; he did, more than they did at certain times. Get a better understanding of what carrying means.
This man won MVP when he did not even make the play-off but we hate on Westbrook and Jokić for winning MVP when they were just 6th seed or when they get swept. That's what being a sociaty darling gives you
Takes have been getting worst and worst, should put yourself on the next hot takes video lmao
Fr this has gotten way too far
That 1978 Washington Bullets championship wasnt off the back of Wes Unseld, it was primarily Bob Dandridge and Elvin Hayes (each Hall of Famers), Unseld won FMVP because he was the Bullets' guy. Also, i dont think you ever brought up Kareem's defense. You brought up the scoring, but he's got twice as many block titles as scoring titles. He's one of the best two-way players of all time, only eclipsed funnily enough by MJ and LeBron.
Despite that, i do agree that Kareem's championships in the 80s aren't that impressive, especially when you have Magic fucking Johnson on your team lmao
We need to stop criticizing players just cuz they played with other stars on their team like I don’t see the point of these arguments
Having mentioned Harden peak, also noteworthy Embiid averaging 47.3 pts/100 in his last 3 seasons on 64% TS and 51 pts/100 last season is insane
Kareem overrated? Top 3 at least and i have neever actually seen anybody make a goat case, even though he actually has one.
Edit:
After watching this video and informing myself about Kareems career i gotta admit he spoke nothing but facts. 6 championships and 6 MVPs do sound like goat material, but context matters. While i think Kareem has a case to be the 3rd greatest NBA player ever, he shouldn't be imo. Accolades really can be misleading sometimes and while i think Kareem is without a doubt one of the greatest NBA players ever, saying that he is low key overrated is absolutely valid and i definitely agree. I thought he was EASILY the 3rd best player of all time, but you really gotta consider many things into these convos. Sorry, but this video is PERFECT and anyone who ain't biased would also agree.
KAJ is the only player in the world that by himself made a team a legit contender. Jordan, Lebron are responsible for 5 - 20 extra wins, Cleveland was 20 wins because they were tanking to actually get Lebron the prior season but with their additions each of there respective teams went from abysmal to piss poor. Kareem took a newly formed franchise that was 1 years old and took them from 27-55 to 56-26 and lost in the Eastern Finals to the eventual NBA champs. He beat the NCAA championship team as a freshman because he wasn't allowed to play as a freshman on the varsity UCLA team. He then won 3 chips in college, 6 chips in the pros this was after he won 3 straight NYC high school championships. They even changed rules to prevent his dominance in college, so to act like he isn't the greatest when he dominated the sport from High School to the Pros is ridiculous.
Hakeem is better honestly, the difficulty of his rings in my opinion does it for me and you can only compare physical freaks to him that had the same ‘Aura’ defensively and backed it up . Also he dominated majority of his big men matchups whilst probably having an equal or worst supporting cast.
Hakeem also probably the few players in NBA history that offensively and defensively peaked to similar level and the latter probably edged it because he is 1 of the few big men in that era and even now that can step out to defend the perimeter to a good level.
1994 Knicks supporting cast was much worse then the 1994 rockets and people underrate the 1995 team they had Drexler who was more suited as a 2nd option and they had good role players who stepped up.
i been saying this for a few years now , i believe tim duncan is the 3rd best player of all time , arguably the best defender of all time , was the main reason of the spurs reign over the league for 20+ years as the best player , great scorer and played ina arguably the most competitive era ever
I have to agree
Did Duncan have a higher peak than Shaq, Kobe and Lebron?
I think we should shift conversations more to “GOTT” (greatest of their time) talks instead of “GOAT” talks. How good X player was at their time matters more because once you start crossing eras you lose nuance and context. If MJ was drafted today would he just be a Dennis Smirh Jr. type player or the MJ we know? Does Kareem dominate in today’s league? Is Steph Curry shooting from 40 in the 60s? Different rules, goals, etc. Just impossible to stay accurate and objective, not to mention nostalgia often kills logic.
so Kareem had 3 titles as the best player, won multiple MVPs which yes I understand and get the argument that there wasn't necessarily competition but that doesn't make them any less an MVP, is one of the best shot blockers at his prime, had amazing longevity and the second most points scored all time but is overrated, and might be worse than Magic who's first two rings he heavily benefited from having the best player in the NBA at the time on his team?? ok ig
I've always been more of a Tim Duncan 3rd all time guy myself but these arguments aren't necessarily the greatest in full context of his career lol
9:20 Wes Unseld was a baller though?
Saying Magic robbed Kareem’s FMVP in 1980 is a little funny because it perfectly resembles the idea that “Kareem doesn’t get held to the MJ or lebron standard.” Cause god forbid if lebron got hurt in 2016 missing game 7 and Kyrie hit the warriors with a 50 piece and blows them out to lead the cavs to the title or if MJ got hurt and missed game 6 against the blazers in 92 with an injury and Scottie dropped a 40 point triple double winning the title and blowing the blazers out by 50, the amount of crap they would get is absurd, but Kareem misses game 6, magic steps into the center role and drops 42, 15, and 7, blows the sixers out by the biggest margin of victory of any win the entire series, and wins the ring. Y’all would say MJ and lebron was holding their teams back being out there if that happened to them.
Who uses Magic’s rings against him
As a rule centre's need good guards because they need player's to get the ball to them.
Point guards are the opposite, they can often drag a bad team to the playoffs in because they are on the ball at the start of plays.
Love the more frequent uploads!
stop it get some help... what we have here ladies and gentlemen is a lebron fan who feel the need to bash other greats to boost him up... sure sure lebron passed kareem in points with all the doctors and all easy these days.. you know what else lebron surpass kareem with turnovers! i rest my case...
Rusty thinks Jordan is the best.
@@fortynights1513 but he think lebron is 2nd when hes not
@@boydriceisawesome2520That fact that you called him a LeBron fan when he has never been one shows that you just heard what you wanted to hear. Grow up.
@@urbaindelva7869 lol he always been one...
All the logic being used to take away from Kareem can basically be applied to LeBron , Kareem still has more MVPS and Finals wins along with a ton of other awards , he has LeBron beat in that stuff other then LeBron playing longer , that is all Lebron has over Kareem in terms of those type of things , Lebron just broke his scoring title so they will probably finish close there , sell me why LeBron is ahead of Kareem? because most of use only saw one of them play?
I am not just trying to crap on LeBron it's just when I do these lists in my head I have a hard time putting him in my top 5. I do agree though that Kareem is in a bubble with 10-ish other players that there is not wrong answer, just MJ is Goat then a group of 10 that it depends. If anything this video should have been about Hakeem , Everyone lost to The MJ Bulls taking away titles from players like Hakeem making him not stand out as much as he should.
edit:: after watching you did cover this well and brought up stuff I didn't think about.
Like all time greats, he has a multifaceted argument for why he is the best player ever or close to it. Intentionally or not, you’re just parroting the league and ESPN hype men for Lebron when you say Kareem’s only argument was longevity, which is extremely reductionist and illogical, and supposedly naturally puts Lebron above him in the pecking order, and supposedly makes Kareem less special so you can knock him down a few pegs. Like Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Russell and others, there is so much to his case. And just because it’s marketable these days to declare Jordan and Lebron are definitely the best ever and anything different is not up for discussion, it’s obvious to all fans that there is a huge financial incentive for media members, the league, and successful content creators to try to shove this down our throats as if it’s incontrovertible.
Horrible opinion
Bruh I been rocking with your channel for a minute and I respect your basketball knowledge but you are tweaking on this one Kareem is easily in the top 3 best players of all time.
I personally dont have kareem in top 3, not even top 5. but i wouldnt knock anyone who does, even if i disagree.
I really clicked on this video thinking the title said “Kareem is the most underrated GOAT”
With someone like Kareem I think the more valid point is bringing up all the losses he had in the playoffs against teams that weren't really much if at all better than his Bucks.
Like all greats lost some games they could've won but Kareem's whole career was full of those disappointments till magic joined him.
The only year he won the chip Jerry west was injured no playoff games for him that year and the rest of the competition Wasn't good at all they both only won 42/41 games.
In my opinion what makes the greats like MJ lebron Curry so great is when they are clearly the reason you won without lack of competition when they make the difference and pull something off that just shouldn't happen otherwise.
Lebron with his whole 2nd cavs run was just unbelievable MJ being the clear best player in a more 1 superstar league vs the Suns, Sonics, Jazz, Curry while wining in a weaker year being pretty much the main reason the warriors dominated the Celtics and other competition i don't remember.
And that 2016 warriors team that so many have as one of the best teams ever they weren't what I'd call stacked Curry, Green, Klay don't exactly scream superteam especially in that era of superteams.
If anything on paper Lebron, Kyrie, Love sound like a better duo.
Did he just use true shooting when Kareem didnt shoot 3s😭 you’re surprised they scoring more points when they taking 3s and taking more shots? lol horrible argument
I used to like Rusty Buckets. Now he's my least favorite youtuber. Also, Kareem is number 2, not number 3 all time.
Kareem should be the all time leader in blocks. It wasn't a stat the first few years of his career but even if you gave him his career lows he would pass hakeem, but i guess that would be longevity too
If blocks were tracked for the entirety of the NBA’s history Wilt and Bill would easily be 1-2
@gamingsquad2326 true but much easier to see Kareems stats ... even if you watch older games they were counting blocks just didn't track them smh
I feel like for the most part despite all the disagreements I think most NBA fans have the exact top 12 players.
Jordan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaw, Kobe, Steph, Duncan, Wilt, Russell, and Kareem.
Not my order, but I think almost everyone has that twelve in some order.
One thing to note is that at least some of his MVP's were also player voted which makes them a bit less valid in my eyes lol. If players voted on MVP these days I think we'd get ridiculous results like KD would have 4 of em or something lol
Kareem is top 3
According to grandpas