Sajam Discusses Laugh's Theory on Types of Fighting Game Playstyles
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- streamed Feb. 24, 2020
Footage via Core-A Gaming:
• Analysis: The Three Ty...
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Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste:
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#FGC - Ігри
I'm all heart, no blocks, no mind, no execution. It's very liberating. I don't win very much.
Don’t forget, heart is also about conditioning and getting in the opponent’s head. You may not know what’s optimal at certain distances or able to combo into super, but you could make consistently good guesses on the opponents wake up and win the fight.
Respect
Unga Bunga
Couldn't have said it better myself. Unga bunga brother, unga bunga.
We found the Asuka player
“Have you ever played against a brain-based player, who every time you do something they always try to counter with whatever’s the most optimal but they’re incapable of doing it?”
That hurt on a personal level.
Personal? You must be a Heart player.
Brain players are more emotional than they think
It reminded me a lot of John Mulaney's bit on basketball.
"My body is bad at sports. And I say my body is bad at sports because my brain is good at sports. Like my brain understands how a human being dribble down a basketball court and makes a lay-up, right? But then it has to outsource the job to my weird and feminine limbs, and so when I play basketball, it looks like I just bought my body. Like I don't know how it works yet."
Balloon410 lmfao yep spot on
@@2000Doriyas You hit the nail on the head LMAO! I'm all heart and get berated by my buddy (mostly brain based) about what options I go for and why it wasn't that good of an option EVEN WHEN I WIN! And when something doesn't go right like he envisioned for it too, he becomes the most emotional person ever. Not like bursting in tears but denial of why this option beat his option and why it shouldn't have worked, and on and on and on...
When I respond with "Because it felt good" or "Seemed like a good option to me (given the situation)" I get an ear full of frame data and everything else lol
True mastery is finding a balance to where mind body and spirit become one. *button mashes*
You're kinda right button mashing is like having 0 in all three stats of that scale
Playing the fool card the weakest and the most powerful
scrubs the whole controller
Lmao bruh, like lowkey think about it tho, button mashing at first is just letting your body act without thinking your body just doesn't know what to do tho. But then like now your hands know what they are doing, the buttons you are mashing will work wayyy better cuz your muscle memory, basically you hit ultra instinct lmao
i dont mean to be offtopic but does someone know a trick to log back into an instagram account??
I somehow lost my login password. I appreciate any help you can offer me!
"you sound like a brain-based player" lol
Another way I like to think about it is:
Brains - knowing what to do and how to do it
Body - being able to do it
Heart - knowing when to do it
Heart is more like "My sense told me to do this next".
💯
"I would beat this guy if he wasn't playing like such an idiot"
I feel like that's a very common trait in anime, where the rival is some prodigy and the protag is an idiot and wins because of it.
haha round start 5m go brrrrr
Oh dude I had the total wrong idea about fgs starting out and thought I could be brainman. "Oh I meatied him the last few KDs so now I'll try some swag setup and oh look I've been CH by wakeup overhead what the fuck is going on"
Now it's all heart baby.
I've beaten tons of players who could do insane combos, that I still can't execute to this day, because they didn't understand the fundamentals of frame advantage. So they throw out all this fancy stuff and I just wait until I know I have advantage then punish.
Another problem I have, so I think other people have. Is they get too focused on what they want to do. You get so caught up on "come on just come closer and I'll do X move" that you miss a different opportunity right in front of your eyes.
Then I get hammered by some manic that's flying all over the place while shouting "that's not what you're supposed to do in that situation you weirdo!"
when the reads are completely wrong because the enemy does unga bunga shit haha
Yup i hear ya. Im always trying to do Omen's grab or I'm caught trying to do up+3+4 Whore-ang I know it's dumb, but i wanna see the move
💯 try move get punished “that shit hurted”
Yoshimitsu players. 🙄
@@SonGockel as a heart player, when you can't get a read on someone bc of what they're doing, then try to get a read based on what they aren't doing. If they are unga bunga then you can count on them not making many reads or baits of their own. You're safe from any real punishment.
I'm a heart player. I almost quit Fighting games altogether until I figured this out. The moment I stepped back and just let my hands do their thing I started getting wins.
Daigo has got to be a mind player he does drills to punish every option, for every character. He's in training mode labing everything. It only looks spontaneous and random, becuase he knows like every option, and a lot of it is muscle memory.
It looking spontaneous bc he knows every option is sort of true but I consider daigo Mostly a body player bc these "drill" are physical practice. In the heat of them moment he thoughtlessly relies on the muscle memory he made. So if anything he's pretty equally body and mind.
Daigo is body, he had to win that one game by good physical execution, and he lost a shit ton of health. Somone who is that optimal would not lost that much health unless it was a really bad losing matchup.
"Are those the players who say their opponent is worse than them when they're losing? Absolutely."
That would make LowTierGod the biggest brain-based player. He loses to people who are "worse" than him all the time.
Ltgs in a category of his own
Yeah, but that in a specific context. Not all players who think they've lost to a worse player than them are brain players, tbf
@@SupermanSajam This is true; I was mostly joking, because it's too easy to rip on LTG's salt.
I was one of those people who thought fighting games were all reactions and combos because I'd spent time around anime players who are often set-up oriented like Sajam is saying. Then I flew home and my brother taught me street fighter. I remember the first time I woke up threw him, we both laughed and that was it. I was hooked on fighting games big-time, and have been ever since. I think fighting games are amazing for heart based play.
I was introduced to the heart, body and mind player concept via James Chen's learning how to fight series. Watching this video help me determine what type of player I am. I'm definitely a mind player because your saying "Mind players sometimes think they making heart decisions...and went things don't got well they blame themselves not doing the right things" is me in a nutshell.
“Who is SonicFox”
-Sajam
JMpardy really do be hitting different tho
@@BBGirlSamus Speak English "Parker"
@@flatterswhite I'll have you know I am speaking English...
Granted I may have been using a bastardized and apropriate form of the language tainted by modern slang and urban colloquialisms in order to add comedic value
But none the less, English...
@@flatterswhite soy
@@BBGirlSamus you really added the comedic value
Body building those electrics
DORYA
Rishi did an incredible video on this very recently that goes into a lot of depth
Do you mind sharing a link?
Geth276 it’s predominantly framed through the lens of Melee but it’s easy to follow after the initial example and very thorough, ua-cam.com/video/rNEhtDQhs-Q/v-deo.html
I'm 10% Brain, 15% Body, 50% Heart & a 100% Concentration of Power of Will
DarkOniro I see what you did there lol
Mang0 is the heart based player. On stream Mew2King was trying to explain something with framedata once and Mang0 genuinely did not understand what like frame data was or how to understand it. There was a score esports video on him and they described it perfectly he plays not with his mind or his hands but with his balls.
I feel like I'm probably a brain based player. The problem is I often feel overwhelmed when trying to approach new games because I don't feel comfortable not knowing what to do. I feel so stupid not being comfortable with movement or not knowing when I'm minus that losing feel deserved and winning feels like a fluke. As a former brain player who is now playing a bunch of games did you feel this and if so do you have any advice to stop it?
Word
Play more, think less.
Try to take in bits of information slowly, like "oh that option beats this so i shouldn't do that in this situation."
And most of all, don't beat yourself up about not knowing everything. If your biggest opponent is yourself, stop listening to the negative thoughts, and try to focus on what you can learn. One match at a time
RainDance_FM I feel like I’m mostly brain based too and have a tendency to want to impose my will against the mechanics of the game like that shouldn’t work and so I keep trying it instead of adapting and realizing that in this game what I’m trying to do isn’t going to work even tho it may work in another game so I feel your pain but just learning when something doesn’t work try to download that and try different things or accept that you have to come up with a different strategy against that setup
It's mostly because the systems behind my games, Street Fighter for 2D and Virtua Fighter for 3D, make sense playstyle wise (Minus SFV w/0freedom) and VF has a particular ruleset and balance. The community for VF is very humble unlike Tekken's that does a bad job at teaching players by giving them 100 NH launchers with no real intent or purpose other than to rotate between them. It also wants movement to be bad, something that should work fine for everyone, not act like quicksand.
My games push fundamentals more first than character. Like even if you pick, "High tiet" you aren't getting a lucky win. So, when I see games like anime that seem derpy in decision making, my pride forces me to say how much I think it's dumb.
Sajam definitely strikes me as a brain player who supplemented his style with body and heart training. Would def place him as brain > heart > body. He's good enough at execution to not drop his combos too much, but he definitely relies more on planning and getting good reads than pure reactions (at least when he's playing and commenting live haha). I just love it when I watch him play and he calls "wake up jump?" after knocking down an opponent and immediately punishes it. Or when he's playing someone and is like "my string is safe opponent, you can't press buttons here you have to block!" and just repeats the same frame trap over and over until the opponent wises up.
i can't be the only person who went to go find and watch the core-a gaming video just for sajam to put it in this video lol
I feel like a brain and heart based player. Whenever I'm not playing I'm watching tech and practicing it and whenever I'm in a match sometimes I'll just throw all of that out the window because I have a feel for my opponent and want to either end things fast with reads or cause them to suffer slowly and painfully with patient defense.
I'm a body player because I keep getting bodied.
Jokes aside, probably heart+mind the most. Eyeballing things and looking tech up but lacking the raw practice.
I saw Rishi's video on this concept, and I like his analysis of the trio. Heart is unchanged, but Brain is more about individual scenarios and what beats what. Body is about gameplan, which I feel describes me better than just execution. Obviously, though, you need all three.
I'm a body and heart player for sure. I don't even know what any of Johnny's frame data is but I'm optimal.
I think whats important here is the distinction between types as a player and types as a playstyle.
Brain players are the type of people that go "Why would you do x in y situation, that's such a bad option" while they're eating a 50% combo because it hit them
This just happened to me in DBFZ lately, people even killing my first 2 characters with sick combos and then I come back and win with the last one because I already know what they are gonna do and won't care about frame advantage, but their execution is so good with the combos they get me speechless at first and the setups are stupidly strong. I am more of a brain player with heart and yup! like Sajam says when I drop combos on punishes it made me mad at myself but I try to keep focus and sometimes look again for the same situation (which makes me lose the game or drop the combo again lol)
This is my absolute favourite thing in esports/fighting games
I feel like I've seen this. Oh! It was on Core-A!
I'm primarely a heart based player. Some games feel SO AT HOME for me from the first second ( i.e. Samurai Showdown and GBFV ), while others like Guilty Gear are in a total another spectrum (despite me loving the fuck out of that franchise). What is the typical heart based player style - I'm so occupied with space control and gut feeling, that I continue on hitting them single keys and totally forget to cancel out shit ( i.e. I press M with Katarina and press M again , instead of pressing M into QCB L (which let's assume is safe) ).
I get so in the zone when playing that any combo that's not drilled down into my core memory bank is just impossible to execute =D
I think heart based players have the capability of being very good in a short amount of time in new games, but only if they feel comfortable in it due to it being similar to what they're used to.
I'm pretty good initially at airdashers, and I immediately feel at home in stuff like GG +R, but man, shit like Tekken or Street Fighter fucks with me.
It's a really cool theory, and easily my favorite Core-A video. It also does a nice job of explaining what makes great players great, since it showcases their personal strength as well as how balanced their abilities are.
this was an interesting discussion
I'm curious because I haven't thought about it but how would a brains based grappler be different from a heart based one?
As a brain player, grapplers fuck me up because the risk of jumping is way more than blocking. But then I just eat ten gord 214a's and die, and everyone at my local has a fuckin chuckle
you need all 3 to some extent to get better, though which want you push a little more is up to you
That's an interesting way to categorize it. Guess being a primarily " heart" player I didn't apply enough "brains" to look at it that way.
But what's the difference between a Jack Daniel's player and a Captain Morgan player?. I'm trying to main one but idk which one yet
I'm pretty much a heart+body player...most of the time.
There's one mind-based tactic I absolutely love doing: wake-up traps. Example: whenever I get a knockdown on someone, I'll do a special/super move during my opponent's wake-up animation. Of course, it depends on the character.
Ever played against an Arcana Heart Player?
I'm in this weird limbo where I would be a body based player but I'm actually a heart based one because I pick up combos and tech by watching and just trying it in a game. Problem is this doesn't always work because I hate practicing so for the super technical stuff I'll drop it more often. If I wasn't a lazy player by nature my execution would be way better than it is and I know this. But this leads to me being a heart player by default since it's the only thing that doesn't require labbing or constant research to perfected. Playing with your heart is more fun to me even if I have more of an affinity with the body archetype.
That Maskedsurveyor guy is a genius.
I'm 100% a heart player. I don't know tech or matchups very well and my execution isn't great so I just do a lot of stuff on gut instinct like just throwing out random command grabs as Astaroth or trying to bait for a counter hit. I like this way of analysing.
I have a lot to learn I consider my self a body player who likes to play characters that has hard to do combos but are very rewarding
I feel like on certain fighting games i take on different aspects of the chart. Depending on how i enjoy the game or approach it
I'm heart and brain... but I have zero execution
Same.
Try working on your reaction time and combo muscle memory. Those are major factors in a decent body player.
Nah, you just suck, my man
In Tekken, some characters perfectly predict what type of player you are. Are you a Bryan who can TJU pretty consistently? Are you a Kazuya who can PEWGF in your sleep? Then you are definitely in the upper percentile of Body.
Are you a King main? Then you probably fall in between Heart and Brain based on how many of the chain throws routes you know. The more routes you know the more toward Brain you're likely to be.
this is like fgc astrology
Remember hen Core-A Gaming actually released videos?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
any link for the full stream that has this video ???
Maxed out heart, how do I reroll my stats
I would say that body beats heart, heart beats brain and brain beats body
I'm mainly Heart with some body. I'll block your string for 30 seconds no sweat and when I feel like your about to throw in a grab I just draw super.
What if I'm not any of them. I don't know any frame data, make no correct reads, and drop all combos and miss all punishes
I'm all heart. Haven't spent a day in training mode nor ever memorized any framedata. I've just played my game so much I know what works intuitively and my winrate shows it.
My reactions are bad, my execution sucks and I don't know any "data". But I win.
How to beat a brain based player.
Make risky and nonsensical decisions, their brains will melt for everytime they fail to respond to something.
Heart based player.
Don't play their game, just play the most dry and straightforward game. They will hang themselfes when given enough time, the less buttons you press the better. Since they won't have enough info for their big heart plays.
Body players.
You don't need to do anything, they will exhaust themselfes.
Perfection.
I think it's extremely easy to fall in brain-based, until you start getting comfortable with your execution.
Also, the thumbnail lol
5:39-5:47 Pretty much me. Makes sense why I have trouble grasping anime games but I love Virtua Fighter and other games that don't put execution over reads 100 percent. More about knowledge or the system and reads. Knowing there's a counter etc. I use Brains and heart more than anything but I've shown body skills in VF/DoA by doing Jacky's iageri/Flag sword kick and Akira's knee/double palm
I also hate really scummy play that seems like it requires no thought and just seems like people are abaring/hitting buttons on me. Like they'll play a character that is explicitly safe all the forcing me to make risky reads.
Guess I'm brain with a bit of heart. I'm no good at combos, but if I can just read my opponent enough then it's fine, right?
Especially if I'm playing Tager.
Have you guys heard the theory thatLaugh has aboutFighting game playstyles?
nice cuts there Sajam :P
I'm more of a heart player. I don't use mind games but I can see habits but I don't know how to punish them optimally and if I could I might just drop a combo anyway
This is legit astrology
I honestly think the idea that someone is either a mind or heart player is misleading. Look at M2K and Mango in Melee: you couldn't find two more quintessential examples of mind and heart respectively. Yet, when you watch them do match analysis and talk about their thought process, you'll realise that M2K is also a heart player, and Mango is also a mind player. M2K will mention what he believes people are thinking in certain situations and how to take advantage of it, and Mango, although he might not think of things in terms of numbers or frames, will still talk in detail about options and strategy demonstrating a great theoretical knowledge of the game. The reality is that you need both mind and heart to succeed at high levels of play, and probably the only "difference" is that the people who memorise frame data and put more time into labbing niche situations become known as "mind" players, while people who are more willing to go for risky reads become known as "heart" players.
JediLink the system assumes most players have some of every category in them, and the best players often have a lot of each. Its just about identifying their primary leaning.
Like on that triangle shown in the CoreA video it has notches because the player might be a 4 in heart, a 5 in body and a 3 in brains and then you draw the lines between them and that’s the player’s unique shape.
I'm the Brain based guy who play's like a Heart because I can get bored with my own matches while I'm playing them.
Dude he definitely described me I'm a mind based player and when I miss a punish which happens a lot I get so frustrated and end up getting destroyed the rest of the mach
I'm all heart baby!!!!
Definitely a Brain/Heart player. I've got 2 modes in a fight, and if something doesn't go to plan, that's a rap. I relate to the "he sucks, I just messed up" comment. I can adapt, but too slow on occasion, and I need multiple matches to figure out some opponents game plans.
I'm a Brain-placed player that's fueled by Heart, but with negative Body skills.
It's very hard to win. I'll see optimal punishes, but can't execute them well. So I'll try to read my opponent based on their habits instead. Only to get read like a book myself.
It's tough sometimes. But losing can be its own reward.
The only way I can play fighting games is to turn my overthinking brain off and get a feel for it more than going on youtube for tutorials on frame data and all the technical stuff before even really having a grasp of the games feeling
Literal Zodiacs for fighting games
I play ness in ultimate and am mainly a heart but I have the brain to know those small true combos and kill percents.
I’ve only been playing a week or so but in melee I play marth and hoo boy I love using down B to punish my opponents habits, but I still switch to ness to get in my opponents head their like “aight he’s a marth all I gotta do is get close and respect his swor- NESS?”
I play little mac
Where do you put Smug?
Phd
where's the unga bunga option
One time at a Smash Melee local, I played against a Falco who'd clearly been practicing L-cancel dair into shine. I wasn't very good, but I hit him once out of it when he missed the L-cancel, and for the rest of the set he never tried it again. So I guess from that, I know what's it's like to break a brain-based player.
What type of player is iDom?
I think I'm about 75% heart, 25% body, 0% brain. I have no idea what frame data is 0r what a matchup is. I just press the buttons I think will work for the situation.
I thinkg I'm mainly heart, then mind then body.
i'm a heart based player with some brain quilities body is the least cause i can do quarter circcle but a half circle foward is hard for me
I’m that anime player he fights. I know some sick ass openings that put me way ahead......, and then I don’t know how to follow up.
5:55 he just described my entire SFV career TIL I'm a brain based player
I've won matches against people who can do amazing combos, by using just basic buttons, and rudimentary combos because my execution sucks. Often being able to see patterns in how your opponents play is the most important thing. Obviously at a high level you got to be able to be good at everything, but I feel like smarts can get you pretty far, even if you can't do the hard combos.
I’m the baby brain player who just steamrolls only when my heart makes the right decision
I suck at all three would that mean I’m off the chart?
Sonic-body
Dragon-brain
Ninjakilla-heart
6:18 Ya got me XD
No thoughts. Head empty.
Rather then playstyles one could say these are the three components of fighting game skill. You need skill in all three to be truly good at fighting games. Sure each player might favor one of the three but lacking in any leads to exploitable weaknesses.
Body is needed to constantly maximize your reads and reward your knowledge. Nothing worse then making a good play only to drop a combo or getting hit by reactable jumpins. However without the other skills you won't be able to land those combos, make those set ups or create situations to your advantage.
Brain is needed because knowledge is important as if you don't know the options you have available how are you going make those reads or land combos without knowing what you opponent both can and should do. However brain players without body and heart will be predictable, crack under pressure of the unknown and will fail to maximize that knowledge.
Heart is needed to make those reads and prevent yourself from being read. But without the other two you are likely to end up flailing around and fall into brain players set ups and traps or getting blown up by body players reaction because you didn't limit their options first.
My own strats once I figure out the opponent is too focus one skill is as follow.
Use my superior knowledge and reads to control the match against body players making their execution and reflexes worthless.
Hit brain players with uncertainty and shatter their focus causing them to blue screen. Play optimally to make them go into routine then hit them with yolo tactics bs and read their panic.
Heart players you got to beat by refusing to form patterns and understanding your own psychology to minimize using panic options or falling for psychological traps like the rule of three. Then use superior knowledge and execution to limit the chances for the heart player to read or run mind games making them harmless.
Im probably closer to body but on a bad day i am a brain player
>alcohol
Bro my kbd is insane off the vodka 😳
I'm generally a brain based player but the moment I get knocked down or get a knockdown I go full heart and yolo a stupid option. Most of the time I get hard punished for wake up dp or I will do something extremely stupid and guess that they will fuck up a safe jump or something and get a punish I shouldn't have.
Does this mean that a skilled player is a mix of all three? If a beginner is one aspect of the three categories, then a pro should be a master of or at least full command of all three.
Yes? No? Maybe...?
Absolutely. By embracing all three mentalities you shed the weaknesses of each specific one. Depending on who you are you'll always lean more towards one or the other but you always want to incorporate every aspect of it imo.
You wanna get as much of each as you can, but every person will have more of one than anything else. Everybody has something they are naturally better at. That's why you can often tell who is playing just by watching the character.
I would call always picking the "perfect" option being low-brain, actually, just because a big-brain player should understand that use of different options is what keeps each individual one viable.
So like... I got no clue what player I am. I mean I main grapplers but I tend to just kinda... do it? If that makes sense, like it just feels correct to do the things I'm doing. Guess that makes me heart?
Heart, I just love doing the stupid stuff that's fun.
Body and Heart. Optimized is not my vocabulary.
I... feel like I'm none, to any real extent?
Perhaps I'm a body-based player with crippled reaction times? Perhaps I'm heart-based to the extent that I go off feeling alone and don't even know it, thinking I'm a mix or doing it brain-based? _Perhaps I'm spleen-based like Daigo?_
Hmm. Something to think about.
Im too much of a Heart based player to do shit optimally lmao, I just do shit when it feels like the right moment to do so and don't drop it
3:57
And my +1;) dawg 🐕
I'm a Heart-based Zoner with a little bit of body type, people hate me Kappa .
but hey this is just a theory........A GAME THEORY Kappa
I just meaty an anime player and it’s over lmao