This is a really good video. I put in a 123 last winter in my 912 and I’ve been really happy with it. Needed to replace a 009 that was on the car when I bought it. Only issue I had was the idle would hang at 1400 rpm for about 15 seconds after the engine warmed up. It has seemed to pretty much fixed itself before I could figure out why. I have the switched version and not the programmable
Very educational. I just purchased one of these for a 911 E application. I will inquire with 123 to see about one of your curves. Thank you as usual Kurt!
I worked with this ignition distributor machine , I helped to bougth it to run on a workshop race team, just fine to achieve the almost correct ignition time to engine, nowaday the best is a phonic wheel , just click and find the correct ignition point.
Hi, Thanks for the extensive demonstration! About the default curve at 11:08: this is a 'one curve fits all', which we program in every Tune+ model, also for other vehicles. It is solely for starting the engine, so you are able to do a test run on a dynamometer if you do not have any curve idea yet. Then you can change the curve. About the vacuum: the 0 kPa is absolute pressure and 100kPa is around atmospheric pressure. This means that if you leave the vacuum unconnected, the sensor will measure around 100kPa and thus gives 0 degrees vacuum advance (not the 10 degrees). Info purely for new users: we advise to go to a dynamometer to get the best curve out of the engine & fuel mix. If that is not possible, then check if you can get a curve from a similar engine. The third option is to convert a classic mechanical curve and enter that curve in the app. See our website for a conversion tutorial. About the shielding: shielding is indeed nice and needed for the original distributor with pickup coil as that one was very sensitive to noise due to very low signal current. The 123 has less problems with that because it can supply more current on the wire which can absorb the electromagnetical noise (low impedance). Electromagnetical noise (EMF) is difficult to measure, as many times, the EMF radiates on your measurement cable (high impedance) and not on the measured signal. For optimal measurement, you need a coax cable from oscilloscope to where you measure with a direct connection instead of a probe. If there are any more questions, just let us know!
Thanks, Christian, for watching and reaching out. As I said, I generally do like your product. I understand the base curve, and my only comment is that I would not use it for any Porsche application. When comes to the EMF, the amount of current you push to the CDI has nothing to do with the secondary system. The biggest issue is that the CDI box is so sensitive to a falling voltage that it will fire quite easily with as little as a 2-volt signal. Where I saw the issue on the bench was not so much on the scope (although, yes, we could see the signal) but at the spark gap and the distributor machine. The way we check inductive distributors on our distributor machine is to fire the CDI, and then we have a custom trigger built for the machine that is triggered by the coil firing. what I saw was when the distributor was above 3000 ERPM we would start to get random fires shown on the machine a couple of times it would completely blanket the machine. This is not a big deal, just something that needs to be addressed when installing a new distributor. lastly, to the point of dyno tunning ignition timing, there are not many dyno shops out there that have the equipment to actually measure the effects of timing on the cylinder. Just because you may get a small HP bump doesn't mean that the timing is not causing internal damage. To correctly measure, you will need to monitor combustion pressures and temperatures and their changes relative to timing adjustments. Not an easy task. Thanks, and please let me know as soon as you have resolved the boost issues so that we can work up our turbo application curves. Kurt
I've been installing a lot of 123-distributorsor the last 10 years, no turbo engines, just regular 4 to 8 cylinders. I haven't had any problems to date. The prerequisite, as explained well in the video, is that you enter the exact ignition curves! The only tricky adjustment is the vacuum curve, but you can't always rely on the Bosch data sheet.
What part of the Bosch data sheet are you having issues with? I have not found any issues with the distributor specifications as they relate to Porsche vehicles. Kurt
Very informative video Kurt & Sarah! I bought a 123 distributor to eventually go in my 2.8L engine build (keeping it carb based). I though it was very plug and play but will need to look at the advance curves. No vacuum for my setup (I believe) so will look at that curve too.
Thanks Kurt , Very insightful video. I have a 2.7 L engine that was converted from CIS to Weber carbs. Would I benefit from changing the Bosch distributor for a 123 Ignition distributor?
The distributor on my car is the stock 2.7 Bosch for CIS , it has not been modified. Is changing to a distributor that is mapped for Weber carbs better? Thanks
Hi Kurt- Thanks so much for another extremely informative video. After watching this video, I am starting to lean toward a 123 distributor, for my 3.0 SC engine with PMO carbs, rather than a rebuilt/recurved bosch distributor. Curious to get your thoughts on this. I saw that on PartsKlassic they sell a 123 distributor for the SC with Carbs already pre-programmed with your advance curve on it. Do you think that would work given I have reground (911s ) cams, PMO 40s, and JE 9.5.1 pistons? really appreciate all of the videos you post. it's been so fun watching all of these, as I am prepping my 911 for the rebuilt engine. Also do you recommend a CDI or MSD box?
So the distributors at Partsklassik use the timing curves that we developed. Yes, I would always use a 123 distributor over a re-curved SC distributor. So, just a couple of things for you to think about. Ignition timing does not care about camshafts or fuel delivery systems (Carbs vs. Fuel injection). It Does care about compression. Increased compression ratios change the burn rate of the fuel/air mixture. Higher compression means you need less total advance. For the most effective ignition system, I would also always use a CDI box, (Not MSD though). You would choose the high-compression version curve from the selection at Partsklassik. With modified engines like yours, you may still need to make some timing changes based on load. Kurt
Another informative video! Is it true or false the original distributors for 1970-1971 911T are optimized for a specific RPM range with lower RPM or higher RPM than the "sweet spot" being sub-optimal? If so does the 123 Distributor offer improved spark & combustion in those ranges? Would one see improved low-rpm running (smoother power delivery) or improved cold weather starting with the 123 Distributor in a carb'd 2.2 vs the original Bosch unit?
The answer to your question is Yes and No. So the distributor originally installed in the car is set to the optimal advance curve throughout the entire usable range. However, because the distributor is a mechanical device, it can be less than optimal as it wears and parts age. The 123 distributors are an RPM-based curve. This means there are no mechanical parts to wear out, causing a change in advance timing. Using a 123 dist will not increase power unless your original dist is worn out or the wrong one for the car. Programing ignition timing for a perceived performance gain is a tricky thing requiring specialized equipment to monitor combustion chamber pressure, temperature and piston knock. Most dyno shops do not have everything required to tune a timing curve. Distributors will also not improve spark quality or duration; that is the job of the CDI box. The distributor merely supplies the signal to fire the plug at the desired time relative to RPM and the engine's internal design. Hope that helps Kurt
@@klassikats thanks for the thoughtful reply. If I combined a 123 Distributor with one of the newer CDI box replacements then it would be possible to ensure: 1. Spark trigger accuracy is optimized by the 123 Distributor and 2. Spark quality is optimized by the upgraded CDI box. Is this accurate? I have no delusions about performance upgrades. I would like to ensure optimal spark/combustion across the usable rev range. I don't know that I trust my old 1971 parts to do that anymore 😅
I would look at the total system as Wiring, Spark plug choice, ignition wires, and the coil fitted to the vehicle can cause more issues than the CDI or distributor alone can cause. Here is a link to our document center www.klassikats.com/document-center/ Under the heading "Electrical and Ignition" the top 5 documents relate to the ignition system and what it needs to work right. Kurt
Thank you so much, this is a needed video, many are out there but they cover the install for different cars. I need to program for a 911 SC converted to a Holley 2300 with a timed vacuum port that is working. I have it hooked to a PartsKlassic 6 pin CDI that I love. The info on wire shielding is worth money, no one has put out that information. Should I call or are you going to make more videos showing the curves you recommend for each set up? Thanks for your time and your products. Tom
Hi Kurt. Love all your videos. Very helpful. I have a 2.7L with Weber carbs that is going in my 1970 project car. My CDI is dead but I do have a MSD. I have read I don’t need either the CDI/MSD with the 123 Distributor. I can run it directly with the correct coil. Is that correct? Will my tach work directly from the coil? Thanks!
Ignition systems can make a huge difference to how an engine runs and preforms. So to answer to your questions, yes you can run a 123 ignition distributor directly to an inductive coil. However, I would not recommend it. Porsche moved away from the inductive ignition system in 1967 as there is just not enough coil saturation time to produce a significant and reliable spark on the 6 cylinder engine above 4000 rpm. The MSD AL6 type boxes are better than just using an inductive system however they are a cheap system designed basically to up grade the Kettering ignition system. They require an inductive coil and resistance per inch wires. These components soak up spark energy and result in timing shifts between cylinders. Though it is better than just using a coil alone. The Bosch system when correctly set up will give you the optimum spark energy and burn time to the plug without the timing shifts of the MSD system. If it were my car the choice is easy. Kurt
Wow, I learned so much..Well done! Just ordered a bluetooth model for my 1976 Euro Carrera 3.0 engine (930/02 block) . Do you know where to find curves to program into my distributor? Essentially it's a 2.4, 2.7 crank with larger barrels. I have it carbureted with 40 PMO's. No vacuum. New to all this!
Hi Kurt, as usual super interesting video and useful information. I have a somewhat related question for which I'd really like your opinion. I am restoring a 1978 SC 911 with a stocj 3.0 engine. The car is equiped with a MSD 6, and Nologic coil and wires. I bought a set of stock BERU wires (P/N ZE 746) to replace the old Nologic wires. I happened to bump into a forum where some users claimed that stock Beru wires are not appropriate for use with a MSD because they are "solid core" wires. I have done further research but: (a) I have not bee able to find any concluding evidence that Beru wires will not work with my set up. and (b) Not even in Beru's home page could I find exact specs regarding their construction (i.e. whether they are solid core or not). Anyway, I'd love to get your take on whether these wires will work with my engine, and if not what would you recommend I do. I really appreciate the time that you take to read and respond to your audience's comments. Best Regards, -Mario
Mario, Yes, this is one of the rare occasions when a forum is correct. The Beru wire sets are Solid core; the easiest way to confirm this is to measure the resistance of the wires. They all should be around 0.00 to 5.00 ohms. The issue is that the MSD units are built using cheap components and are poorly shielded from electromagnetic fields. The electrical noise coming off the solid core ignition wires will interfere with the MSD internal components and can cause the unit to miss-fire and eventually fail. You will find the warnings about not using solid core wires with your MSD unit on MSD's website and the included instructions. The best system for your car is the original Bosch system. It gives the most amount of spark possible to each cylinder. Each cylinder receives the same amount of energy at the same time. The MSD systems were designed to replace point-driven ignition systems. In this case, they are a step up in performance. However, replacing the original CDI system with an MSD system is a big step down in performance. To answer your question, you should be using an MSD coil and MSD wires that are matched to that unit. Kurt
Hi Kurt, Thank you for your reply. My car was fitted with the msd when I bought it. I will -for the time being- leave the nology wires and get an original ignition system (cdi + coil) to replace the whole setting as soon as possible. Thanks again!
Hello, is it possible, when the engine is at temperature, I always have a problem around 2000 rpm, it stutters at low rpm, starts well hot and cold, cold, no problems at all !! problem comes after 15 minutes!! thank you !!your videos are fantastic ❤
Could be ignition or could be fuel. Depending on what car you have, what condition the engine is in along with the induction system used there could be alot of possible issues. Kurt
Kaz, Rebuilding yes, for Porsche you can use Partsklassik. Recurving is a different story and I would highly recommend using 123 distributor for that purpose and know what you are doing.
@@klassikats Thx for the info. My problem is minor: It's the wrong distributor for my engine, hopefully I can fix with a rebuild / recurve. Either that or buy another...
If you are wanting to use a 123 distributor, then I would choose the Bluetooth programable one. Partsklassik can sell you a pre programmed unit that is ready to install and run. Kurt
Since the 123 indexes the TDC with its LED and the advance is virtual controlled by the electronics is it necessary to check at 5000RPM with a timing light? Also, what it the full advance for a 2.0 911S? Many documents say 30 degrees but graphs sometimes show 34 degrees @ 6800 RPM. Thanks.
The timing should always be set at maximum advance as that is the more important setting, the idle speed setting is just a reference to check. This sets up a correctly programed distributor for success. The 2.0L and 2.2L 911S engines are all timed at 30°@6000 RPM, a 1973, (2.4L and 2.7L engines), and on 911S will be timed at 35°@6000 RPM, the difference being that the compression ratios on those engines are very different. The 2.0L and 2.2L engines had a much higher compression ratio and therefore need a lower maximum timing advance.
Hello i recently purchased a 123 ignition and i started the installation but something isn’t right. I have a 66 porsche 912 and had a 031 distributor which works perfectly. I removed the old distributor to compare TDC cylinder 1 and the new 123 distributor is pointing at cylinder 2 when both are side to side and not sure why. Please help
This is true you wont need to replace the points or condenser. But I am a firm believer in not replacing parts that are not worn out. But of course it is up to you. If you need more help you can book a video call with me on our website by clicking this link www.klassikats.com/consultation-services/ Kurt
Would you be open to an apprenticeship? I’m very very interested in what your doing and would love to learn as much as I can to further my education primarily on air cooled Porsches. 😊
I understand you are working on Porsche Only, but i really hope you may assist me on advance curve map for my VW late bus because i am having some issue when bus hit 110KM/H it just not further accelerate and had a feeling like pulling and this feeling i do experience before when a distributor are running with contact point and point are not in good condition.
Mike, That does not sound like an ignition problem. It sounds more like a fuel issue. I would need to know more on the bus to really help you. Like how does the engine perform in the lower gears? Will the engine rev though its entire range smoothly at lower speeds? What is the internal condition of the engine? (leak down numbers?). Let me know and I think. Kurt
@@klassikats Hi Kurt I am very appreciate and thank that you willing assist me on my issue. When in lower gear it have no issue it still able perform high rev and engine just smoothly produce good power. Why i suspect 123 ignition distributor is because before i switch to 123 ignition distributor my bus is running with Bosch 0 231 170 034 distributor totally don't such issue and it still able to hit 130 KM/H without lag.
Hi Kurt FYI, the issue were resolved the root cause are ignition cable bad contact from coil to distributor. hope you may share some advance curve setting so my bus and bug can run smooth wouldn't mess up the engine.
Hi, the item description on the website I purchased states “The Perma-Tune Bespoke Porsche 911SC126 distributor is an exact fit replacement part that will drop right into the engine. Setting the static timing is easy with the built in trigger point LED that lets you know when the rotor is pointing in the right direction. Idle timing is set in exactly the same way as the factory manual indicates and the factory mechanical and vacuum curves are preprogrammed into the distributor. The mechanical vacuum can is replaced with a reliable MAP sensor that is fully programmable to perform advance, retard, vacuum and boost functions.” What might you know about that statement today? If the program is not the Porsche values, can you provide the file or give me the values to write myself?
Keith, So it looks like permatune is just buying a 123 Distributor and bead blasting it to make it look different. Whos knows what it is programed with. I was hired by partsklassik to develop the curves for Porsche and verify them on the distributor machine. You would have to contact them directly to get one of there preprogamed distributors. Or you can try and program yourself using the factory shop manual as a reference and the engine and a a timing light. Thanks Kurt
why is there a long flat period in the mechanical advance curve? Isn't it more logical to advance everything in a linear fashion to reflect the burning time to the RPM?
Richard, The long flat time in the middle of the curve is because the first part of the curve is over advanced to help with initial engine acceleration. It is also where the engine is usually under the most amount of load. Rarely is there ever an engine advance curve that is linear. Ignition advance is heavily affected by pressure. As engine compression increases timing advance needs to be reduced. This is because the flame propagation is faster in higher compression engines. The same is true for load, as load increases cylinder pressure also increases. As RPM increases load typically decreases and now time is more of a factor. Therefore the advance curve can continue to climb at higher RPM. There are a lot of factors that come into an engines actual needed timing advance curve. The goal is to have to complete combustion as the piston crests TDC with pressure building on the downstroke and not before. Hope that helps Kurt
If you are trying to set the base timing then you just use a standard timing light. If you want to make programing changes you will need to connect to the distributor. Kurt
Thanks for the video. I have an aging 0 231 184 001 distributor on a 2.4S (MFI) engine and am weighing a rebuild vs a 123 dist. The issues you raise re: vac retard give me pause. Might you just ignore the vac retard - my limited understanding for the retard was emissions, and perhaps some smoothing at idle &/ OR cruising - constant load? I am NO expert , just curious. i.e. is vac retard required.
It is a common mis conception that vacuum retard is just for emissions. It is most certainly not. vacuum controls move timing faster than and rpm based controls can and also take into account engine load. Using a 123 distributor in your application is not an issue. At the moment it is just the turbo applications where vacuum and boost retard functions are an issue. Kurt
Thanks Kurt! One followup, I am running a Crane CDI + coil (primary ~ 0.4 ohms). Not sure you can answer this, but Is it OK to use this setup with 123 if I connect signal from 123 to CDI & not directly to coil?
Thanks for the video Kurt, I also found this to be very informative. My real question here is why did Porsche use a vacuum retard instead of Vacuum advance? In every other SVDA (mechanical advance and vacuum advance) distributor I am familiar with the vacuum is used to advance the timing during cruise. One deviation to this is the DVDA that VW used with the PICT34 carb and then the vacuum retard was used for emissions purposes I believe. If Porsche also was using vacuum retard solely for emissions purposes would it make sense to be developing new advance curves for efficiency in mind? Thanks in advance. Jeremy
So as fancypants said Porsche has used combinations of vacuum advance and vacuum retard. The best part of a vacuum retard is that it is used at idle speeds to pull back timing insuring a smooth consistent engine speed. As soon as the throttle is opened the vacuum quickly falls away allowing for an instant bump up in timing. This is impossible to do with springs and weights. The vacuum advance used on Porsche engines is primarily used to compensate for trigger signal retard. The Turbo engines also use the vacuum advance module as a boost retard as the manifold pressure goes from a negative to a positive. Kurt
This is a really good video. I put in a 123 last winter in my 912 and I’ve been really happy with it. Needed to replace a 009 that was on the car when I bought it. Only issue I had was the idle would hang at 1400 rpm for about 15 seconds after the engine warmed up. It has seemed to pretty much fixed itself before I could figure out why. I have the switched version and not the programmable
May be something to do with the programed curve. Or carburetors and mixture adjustment can also affect that
Kurt
Very educational. I just purchased one of these for a 911 E application. I will inquire with 123 to see about one of your curves. Thank you as usual Kurt!
We set up those curves specifically for Partsklassik. 123 does not have our curves, you need to reach out to Partsklassik
Kurt
@@klassikats Will do that. I wasn't sure from the video. I will reach out when installation is close. Thanks again!
I worked with this ignition distributor machine , I helped to bougth it to run on a workshop race team, just fine to achieve the almost correct ignition time to engine, nowaday the best is a phonic wheel , just click and find the correct ignition point.
Interesting,
Thanks for watching.
Kurt
The thought Porsche was two syllables. :). Thanks for the video !
Do you mean Poor-Sha?
Hi,
Thanks for the extensive demonstration!
About the default curve at 11:08: this is a 'one curve fits all', which we program in every Tune+ model, also for other vehicles. It is solely for starting the engine, so you are able to do a test run on a dynamometer if you do not have any curve idea yet. Then you can change the curve.
About the vacuum: the 0 kPa is absolute pressure and 100kPa is around atmospheric pressure. This means that if you leave the vacuum unconnected, the sensor will measure around 100kPa and thus gives 0 degrees vacuum advance (not the 10 degrees).
Info purely for new users: we advise to go to a dynamometer to get the best curve out of the engine & fuel mix. If that is not possible, then check if you can get a curve from a similar engine. The third option is to convert a classic mechanical curve and enter that curve in the app. See our website for a conversion tutorial.
About the shielding: shielding is indeed nice and needed for the original distributor with pickup coil as that one was very sensitive to noise due to very low signal current. The 123 has less problems with that because it can supply more current on the wire which can absorb the electromagnetical noise (low impedance). Electromagnetical noise (EMF) is difficult to measure, as many times, the EMF radiates on your measurement cable (high impedance) and not on the measured signal. For optimal measurement, you need a coax cable from oscilloscope to where you measure with a direct connection instead of a probe.
If there are any more questions, just let us know!
Thanks, Christian, for watching and reaching out.
As I said, I generally do like your product. I understand the base curve, and my only comment is that I would not use it for any Porsche application. When comes to the EMF, the amount of current you push to the CDI has nothing to do with the secondary system. The biggest issue is that the CDI box is so sensitive to a falling voltage that it will fire quite easily with as little as a 2-volt signal. Where I saw the issue on the bench was not so much on the scope (although, yes, we could see the signal) but at the spark gap and the distributor machine. The way we check inductive distributors on our distributor machine is to fire the CDI, and then we have a custom trigger built for the machine that is triggered by the coil firing. what I saw was when the distributor was above 3000 ERPM we would start to get random fires shown on the machine a couple of times it would completely blanket the machine. This is not a big deal, just something that needs to be addressed when installing a new distributor.
lastly, to the point of dyno tunning ignition timing, there are not many dyno shops out there that have the equipment to actually measure the effects of timing on the cylinder. Just because you may get a small HP bump doesn't mean that the timing is not causing internal damage. To correctly measure, you will need to monitor combustion pressures and temperatures and their changes relative to timing adjustments. Not an easy task.
Thanks, and please let me know as soon as you have resolved the boost issues so that we can work up our turbo application curves.
Kurt
I've been installing a lot of 123-distributorsor the last 10 years, no turbo engines, just regular 4 to 8 cylinders. I haven't had any problems to date. The prerequisite, as explained well in the video, is that you enter the exact ignition curves! The only tricky adjustment is the vacuum curve, but you can't always rely on the Bosch data sheet.
What part of the Bosch data sheet are you having issues with? I have not found any issues with the distributor specifications as they relate to Porsche vehicles.
Kurt
@@klassikats Hi Kurt, most of the vehicles were Benz, VW and Jaguar. I have original workshop manuals with the data, but none from Porsche.
Very informative video Kurt & Sarah! I bought a 123 distributor to eventually go in my 2.8L engine build (keeping it carb based). I though it was very plug and play but will need to look at the advance curves. No vacuum for my setup (I believe) so will look at that curve too.
there's a lot to correctly setting up that distributor on a custom engine. Lots of things to consider.
Kurt
Thanks Kurt , Very insightful video.
I have a 2.7 L engine that was converted from CIS to Weber carbs.
Would I benefit from changing the Bosch distributor for a 123 Ignition distributor?
Depends on who and how the Bosch distributor was set. Most likely the 123 distributor with a correctly programmed curve would make a difference.
Kurt
The distributor on my car is the stock 2.7 Bosch for CIS , it has not been modified.
Is changing to a distributor that is mapped for Weber carbs better?
Thanks
Hi Kurt- Thanks so much for another extremely informative video. After watching this video, I am starting to lean toward a 123 distributor, for my 3.0 SC engine with PMO carbs, rather than a rebuilt/recurved bosch distributor. Curious to get your thoughts on this. I saw that on PartsKlassic they sell a 123 distributor for the SC with Carbs already pre-programmed with your advance curve on it. Do you think that would work given I have reground (911s ) cams, PMO 40s, and JE 9.5.1 pistons? really appreciate all of the videos you post. it's been so fun watching all of these, as I am prepping my 911 for the rebuilt engine. Also do you recommend a CDI or MSD box?
So the distributors at Partsklassik use the timing curves that we developed. Yes, I would always use a 123 distributor over a re-curved SC distributor. So, just a couple of things for you to think about. Ignition timing does not care about camshafts or fuel delivery systems (Carbs vs. Fuel injection). It Does care about compression. Increased compression ratios change the burn rate of the fuel/air mixture. Higher compression means you need less total advance. For the most effective ignition system, I would also always use a CDI box, (Not MSD though). You would choose the high-compression version curve from the selection at Partsklassik. With modified engines like yours, you may still need to make some timing changes based on load.
Kurt
Another informative video! Is it true or false the original distributors for 1970-1971 911T are optimized for a specific RPM range with lower RPM or higher RPM than the "sweet spot" being sub-optimal? If so does the 123 Distributor offer improved spark & combustion in those ranges? Would one see improved low-rpm running (smoother power delivery) or improved cold weather starting with the 123 Distributor in a carb'd 2.2 vs the original Bosch unit?
The answer to your question is Yes and No. So the distributor originally installed in the car is set to the optimal advance curve throughout the entire usable range. However, because the distributor is a mechanical device, it can be less than optimal as it wears and parts age. The 123 distributors are an RPM-based curve. This means there are no mechanical parts to wear out, causing a change in advance timing. Using a 123 dist will not increase power unless your original dist is worn out or the wrong one for the car. Programing ignition timing for a perceived performance gain is a tricky thing requiring specialized equipment to monitor combustion chamber pressure, temperature and piston knock. Most dyno shops do not have everything required to tune a timing curve. Distributors will also not improve spark quality or duration; that is the job of the CDI box. The distributor merely supplies the signal to fire the plug at the desired time relative to RPM and the engine's internal design.
Hope that helps
Kurt
@@klassikats thanks for the thoughtful reply. If I combined a 123 Distributor with one of the newer CDI box replacements then it would be possible to ensure: 1. Spark trigger accuracy is optimized by the 123 Distributor and 2. Spark quality is optimized by the upgraded CDI box. Is this accurate? I have no delusions about performance upgrades. I would like to ensure optimal spark/combustion across the usable rev range. I don't know that I trust my old 1971 parts to do that anymore 😅
I would look at the total system as Wiring, Spark plug choice, ignition wires, and the coil fitted to the vehicle can cause more issues than the CDI or distributor alone can cause. Here is a link to our document center www.klassikats.com/document-center/ Under the heading "Electrical and Ignition" the top 5 documents relate to the ignition system and what it needs to work right.
Kurt
@@klassikats Thank you so much!
Thank you so much, this is a needed video, many are out there but they cover the install for different cars. I need to program for a 911 SC converted to a Holley 2300 with a timed vacuum port that is working. I have it hooked to a PartsKlassic 6 pin CDI that I love. The info on wire shielding is worth money, no one has put out that information.
Should I call or are you going to make more videos showing the curves you recommend for each set up?
Thanks for your time and your products. Tom
We developed the curves for Partsklassik, so I would give them a call about programing
Hi Kurt. Love all your videos. Very helpful. I have a 2.7L with Weber carbs that is going in my 1970 project car. My CDI is dead but I do have a MSD. I have read I don’t need either the CDI/MSD with the 123 Distributor. I can run it directly with the correct coil. Is that correct? Will my tach work directly from the coil? Thanks!
Ignition systems can make a huge difference to how an engine runs and preforms. So to answer to your questions, yes you can run a 123 ignition distributor directly to an inductive coil. However, I would not recommend it. Porsche moved away from the inductive ignition system in 1967 as there is just not enough coil saturation time to produce a significant and reliable spark on the 6 cylinder engine above 4000 rpm. The MSD AL6 type boxes are better than just using an inductive system however they are a cheap system designed basically to up grade the Kettering ignition system. They require an inductive coil and resistance per inch wires. These components soak up spark energy and result in timing shifts between cylinders. Though it is better than just using a coil alone. The Bosch system when correctly set up will give you the optimum spark energy and burn time to the plug without the timing shifts of the MSD system.
If it were my car the choice is easy.
Kurt
@@klassikats Thanks Kurt! Makes sense. I will send my 3 pin CDI box to PartsKlassik for a trade in.
Wow, I learned so much..Well done! Just ordered a bluetooth model for my 1976 Euro Carrera 3.0 engine (930/02 block) . Do you know where to find curves to program into my distributor? Essentially it's a 2.4, 2.7 crank with larger barrels. I have it carbureted with 40 PMO's. No vacuum. New to all this!
Partsklassik will sell you a preprogramed ignition distributor so that you can just plug and play.
Kurt
PS: They do not sell just the curves
Thank you so much Kurt for the knowledge. Any update on the turbo situation? I am trying to get a new distributor for my 1980 930 Euro turbo.🙂
To my knowledge 123 has not made the programing changes required to make the system work on the turbo applications.
Kurt
Thank you!@@klassikats
Hi Kurt, as usual super interesting video and useful information. I have a somewhat related question for which I'd really like your opinion. I am restoring a 1978 SC 911 with a stocj 3.0 engine. The car is equiped with a MSD 6, and Nologic coil and wires. I bought a set of stock BERU wires (P/N ZE 746) to replace the old Nologic wires. I happened to bump into a forum where some users claimed that stock Beru wires are not appropriate for use with a MSD because they are "solid core" wires. I have done further research but: (a) I have not bee able to find any concluding evidence that Beru wires will not work with my set up. and (b) Not even in Beru's home page could I find exact specs regarding their construction (i.e. whether they are solid core or not). Anyway, I'd love to get your take on whether these wires will work with my engine, and if not what would you recommend I do. I really appreciate the time that you take to read and respond to your audience's comments. Best Regards, -Mario
Mario,
Yes, this is one of the rare occasions when a forum is correct. The Beru wire sets are Solid core; the easiest way to confirm this is to measure the resistance of the wires. They all should be around 0.00 to 5.00 ohms. The issue is that the MSD units are built using cheap components and are poorly shielded from electromagnetic fields. The electrical noise coming off the solid core ignition wires will interfere with the MSD internal components and can cause the unit to miss-fire and eventually fail. You will find the warnings about not using solid core wires with your MSD unit on MSD's website and the included instructions.
The best system for your car is the original Bosch system. It gives the most amount of spark possible to each cylinder. Each cylinder receives the same amount of energy at the same time. The MSD systems were designed to replace point-driven ignition systems. In this case, they are a step up in performance. However, replacing the original CDI system with an MSD system is a big step down in performance.
To answer your question, you should be using an MSD coil and MSD wires that are matched to that unit.
Kurt
Hi Kurt,
Thank you for your reply. My car was fitted with the msd when I bought it. I will -for the time being- leave the nology wires and get an original ignition system (cdi + coil) to replace the whole setting as soon as possible. Thanks again!
Hello, is it possible, when the engine is at temperature, I always have a problem around 2000 rpm, it stutters at low rpm, starts well hot and cold,
cold, no problems at all !! problem comes after 15 minutes!! thank you !!your videos are fantastic ❤
Could be ignition or could be fuel. Depending on what car you have, what condition the engine is in along with the induction system used there could be alot of possible issues.
Kurt
Great Video. Do you recommend anyone who can rebuild / recurve OEM distributors?
Kaz,
Rebuilding yes, for Porsche you can use Partsklassik. Recurving is a different story and I would highly recommend using 123 distributor for that purpose and know what you are doing.
@@klassikats Thx for the info. My problem is minor: It's the wrong distributor for my engine, hopefully I can fix with a rebuild / recurve. Either that or buy another...
What is the best replacement distributor for a 1973 911 T with mechanical fuel injection?
If you are wanting to use a 123 distributor, then I would choose the Bluetooth programable one. Partsklassik can sell you a pre programmed unit that is ready to install and run.
Kurt
Since the 123 indexes the TDC with its LED and the advance is virtual controlled by the electronics is it necessary to check at 5000RPM with a timing light? Also, what it the full advance for a 2.0 911S? Many documents say 30 degrees but graphs sometimes show 34 degrees @ 6800 RPM. Thanks.
The timing should always be set at maximum advance as that is the more important setting, the idle speed setting is just a reference to check. This sets up a correctly programed distributor for success. The 2.0L and 2.2L 911S engines are all timed at 30°@6000 RPM, a 1973, (2.4L and 2.7L engines), and on 911S will be timed at 35°@6000 RPM, the difference being that the compression ratios on those engines are very different. The 2.0L and 2.2L engines had a much higher compression ratio and therefore need a lower maximum timing advance.
@@klassikats Thanks!
Hello i recently purchased a 123 ignition and i started the installation but something isn’t right. I have a 66 porsche 912 and had a 031 distributor which works perfectly. I removed the old distributor to compare TDC cylinder 1 and the new 123 distributor is pointing at cylinder 2 when both are side to side and not sure why. Please help
so just move the wires over one position on the cap. If the 031 is working so well why would you change it?
Kurt
I was told 123 will require less maintenance
This is true you wont need to replace the points or condenser. But I am a firm believer in not replacing parts that are not worn out.
But of course it is up to you.
If you need more help you can book a video call with me on our website by clicking this link www.klassikats.com/consultation-services/
Kurt
Would you be open to an apprenticeship? I’m very very interested in what your doing and would love to learn as much as I can to further my education primarily on air cooled Porsches. 😊
No, sorry at this time we are not hiring.
Thanks
Kurt
I understand you are working on Porsche Only, but i really hope you may assist me on advance curve map for my VW late bus because i am having some issue when bus hit 110KM/H it just not further accelerate and had a feeling like pulling and this feeling i do experience before when a distributor are running with contact point and point are not in good condition.
Mike,
That does not sound like an ignition problem. It sounds more like a fuel issue. I would need to know more on the bus to really help you. Like how does the engine perform in the lower gears? Will the engine rev though its entire range smoothly at lower speeds? What is the internal condition of the engine? (leak down numbers?).
Let me know and I think.
Kurt
@@klassikats
Hi Kurt
I am very appreciate and thank that you willing assist me on my issue. When in lower gear it have no issue it still able perform high rev and engine just smoothly produce good power. Why i suspect 123 ignition distributor is because before i switch to 123 ignition distributor my bus is running with Bosch 0 231 170 034 distributor totally don't such issue and it still able to hit 130 KM/H without lag.
Hi Kurt
FYI, the issue were resolved the root cause are ignition cable bad contact from coil to distributor. hope you may share some advance curve setting so my bus and bug can run smooth wouldn't mess up the engine.
Hi, the item description on the website I purchased states “The Perma-Tune Bespoke Porsche 911SC126 distributor is an exact fit replacement part that will drop right into the engine. Setting the static timing is easy with the built in trigger point LED that lets you know when the rotor is pointing in the right direction. Idle timing is set in exactly the same way as the factory manual indicates and the factory mechanical and vacuum curves are preprogrammed into the distributor. The mechanical vacuum can is replaced with a reliable MAP sensor that is fully programmable to perform advance, retard, vacuum and boost functions.” What might you know about that statement today?
If the program is not the Porsche values, can you provide the file or give me the values to write myself?
Keith,
So it looks like permatune is just buying a 123 Distributor and bead blasting it to make it look different. Whos knows what it is programed with. I was hired by partsklassik to develop the curves for Porsche and verify them on the distributor machine. You would have to contact them directly to get one of there preprogamed distributors. Or you can try and program yourself using the factory shop manual as a reference and the engine and a a timing light.
Thanks
Kurt
why is there a long flat period in the mechanical advance curve? Isn't it more logical to advance everything in a linear fashion to reflect the burning time to the RPM?
Richard,
The long flat time in the middle of the curve is because the first part of the curve is over advanced to help with initial engine acceleration. It is also where the engine is usually under the most amount of load. Rarely is there ever an engine advance curve that is linear. Ignition advance is heavily affected by pressure. As engine compression increases timing advance needs to be reduced. This is because the flame propagation is faster in higher compression engines. The same is true for load, as load increases cylinder pressure also increases. As RPM increases load typically decreases and now time is more of a factor. Therefore the advance curve can continue to climb at higher RPM. There are a lot of factors that come into an engines actual needed timing advance curve. The goal is to have to complete combustion as the piston crests TDC with pressure building on the downstroke and not before.
Hope that helps
Kurt
@@klassikats Interesting explanation, thank you Kurt! So many people oversimplify and under-explain things nowadays.
How do you set it 10 OT without Bluetooth?
If you are trying to set the base timing then you just use a standard timing light. If you want to make programing changes you will need to connect to the distributor.
Kurt
@@klassikats the base is done. Wanted 10 OT without USB. Thats why was asking which letzer etc is 10 OT or how you set it.
Im sorry I am not understanding your question. Please send me an email to contact@klassikats.com and we can work it out.
Kurt
Thanks for the video. I have an aging 0 231 184 001 distributor on a 2.4S (MFI) engine and am weighing a rebuild vs a 123 dist. The issues you raise re: vac retard give me pause. Might you just ignore the vac retard - my limited understanding for the retard was emissions, and perhaps some smoothing at idle &/ OR cruising - constant load? I am NO expert , just curious. i.e. is vac retard required.
It is a common mis conception that vacuum retard is just for emissions. It is most certainly not. vacuum controls move timing faster than and rpm based controls can and also take into account engine load. Using a 123 distributor in your application is not an issue. At the moment it is just the turbo applications where vacuum and boost retard functions are an issue.
Kurt
Thanks Kurt! One followup, I am running a Crane CDI + coil (primary ~ 0.4 ohms). Not sure you can answer this, but Is it OK to use this setup with 123 if I connect signal from 123 to CDI & not directly to coil?
that should not be an issue.
Kurt
Thanks for the video Kurt, I also found this to be very informative. My real question here is why did Porsche use a vacuum retard instead of Vacuum advance? In every other SVDA (mechanical advance and vacuum advance) distributor I am familiar with the vacuum is used to advance the timing during cruise. One deviation to this is the DVDA that VW used with the PICT34 carb and then the vacuum retard was used for emissions purposes I believe. If Porsche also was using vacuum retard solely for emissions purposes would it make sense to be developing new advance curves for efficiency in mind?
Thanks in advance.
Jeremy
Not - …instead of… Porsche used both advance and retard with the latter supporting Turbo applications.
So as fancypants said Porsche has used combinations of vacuum advance and vacuum retard. The best part of a vacuum retard is that it is used at idle speeds to pull back timing insuring a smooth consistent engine speed. As soon as the throttle is opened the vacuum quickly falls away allowing for an instant bump up in timing. This is impossible to do with springs and weights. The vacuum advance used on Porsche engines is primarily used to compensate for trigger signal retard. The Turbo engines also use the vacuum advance module as a boost retard as the manifold pressure goes from a negative to a positive.
Kurt
@@klassikats So the vacuum retard was used for mainly Idle control, that makes perfect sense and I did not know that. Thanks for the detailed reply.