Mars had almost zero unemployment until recently, everyone was assigned a task (terraforming, military, etc.) and they were all highly motivated to accomplish it for the greater good (completely the opposite of Earth). That is no longer the case though. This will be explored more, so just wait for it.
This is the episode where Wes Chatam, the actor playing Amos, got punched in the face for real during filming. At the end of the scene the guy who punched him was horrified and kept apologizing. "What are you apologizing for?" "Dude, I punched you in the face!" "Wait, really?" He was so into the scene he didn't even notice! He recalled that moment in an interview with Adam Savage. Wes Chatam is great :D
I love how in this episode they use a lot more classic western shots, the hero/villian cut, the wide panoramic shot with the hero/villian. The directors went all in on the western themes in this episode.
The belter physiology is something you cannot portray in a TV series on a reasonable budget. They go with tattoos and hairdos, but that is only a crutch. In the books belters are instantly recognizable by their height and build. Naomi isn't particularly tall for a belter but she is still towering over Holden by maybe 25 centimeters. Such distinctiveness reenforces tribal identity.
Kat is right, Mars dedicated their society to building a Garden of Eden. But then that ring opened and made available over a thousand new gardens of Eden. Overnight, Mars' whole unifying purpose was evaporated.
That’s not a spoiler, it’s discussion on things already shown/mentioned. Where later episodes may state things in a more clear way, you can deduce what was written here without any future conent.
@@Martiancamel Nothing was spoiled, my dude. Most people already figured out most of that long before they get to the episode where it's explicitly laid out.
@@Cbricklyne Like you said, most people already figured it out but they haven't. Why spell it out right now instead of letting them figuring it out themselves? The realization would not be as impactlful when you already know the message the show is trying to tell you. They even said that they are sure they will know more about it later.
"So much tension, everywhere! All the time!", I could've sworn you were talking about our actual world right now because it is. This show is such a look into a mirror of us now and I love it so damn much. Great reaction all day all the time. Much Love you two!
I love watching your guys reaction. So much so that I bing watched all seasons of the expanse this week. Haha I didn’t know this series was also books. From what I’ve been told the show is pretty close to the books.
The dock foreman wasn't in on Esai's black marketing operation, but he sees the potential profits to be had in undertaking something similar. I don't recall if I've made this point here before, but while Holden's end of the story is checking boxes off on the "classic western archetype" list, Bobbie is on a very different path. She's trapped in a "film noir" setting, the thoroughly disillusioned warrior home from the battlefield only to discover that her homeland's ideals have become irreversibly corrupted. Lucky for her, she's already a femme fatale.
Murtry is perhaps my second favorite character this season. He's the one who's correct. The people we've been following have killed too, with us cheering. Now we meet someone who does what he needs to do and has no moral qualms about it, so many see him as bad. If we were surrounded by people who wanted us dead, and several of them had just killed over 20 of our friends and colleagues with a bomb, we wouldn't care about mercy either.
True, but Murtry has to follow rules like anyone else, in fact even more so due to him being in command. If leaders in the army acted on emotion then civilian massacres during times of war would be regular occurrences rather than rare occurrences because soldiers are ALWAYS in hostile territory.
How quickly we forget, those belters were already in the throws of a second attack. Murtry has confirmation that Lucia was one of them. Frontier justice. He isn't wrong or no more wrong than anyone else. Just think of how many folks our Roci crew+Bobbi have killed, who were actually correct or just following orders. He just comes off as an ass so he gets flack, but would he get treated this way if we liked him? Perspective.
yup. Murtry is a madman, but I find it hard to understand some of the vitriol directed at him. 4 out of the 5 belters intended to kill everyone on the shuttle, and the last one went along as an accomplish. Lets reimagine the situation: The Rocinante is touching down, and some OPA members sets off an explosive that kills Holden and Alex. Would the same hate be directed at Naomi or Amos when they take the law into their own hands? I seriously doubt it. There was universal cheers when Amos killed Strickland, after all. Up to this episode, all Murtry has done has been justified in some way, its only later his bloodlust makes him step over the line.
Thanks for your reactions and thoughts afterward. This show is so philosophical at times, it is dealing with so many larger issues ALONG with a great story and action (with incredible cast of truly memorable characters). Love this series (tv and books). Can’t wait for your next episode. Stay safe.
It is really very interesting to see how a government based on war and struggle works when there is no war anymore. Mars is becoming more and more like what they loathed all along. The story around the Belter will be very exciting and far reaching for everyone. All in all I find this season a little bit calmer, especially in the first episodes. But later it becomes more intnesive, which I really liked from the storytelling.
Everyone seems to have a lot of sympathy for Lucia and thinks she is so innocent. To me she is, alongside the other accomplices and Murtry also guilty. Lucia should be arrested and put on trial along with the others that worked alongside her. She does show remorse which will work in her favour but she has to take the punishment whichever the courts give her. Murtry is a very unlikable person, but until he killed the first Belter he was innocent. Now he is just as bad as the Belters that struck the ship. Many of the people on the ship were scientists that were excited to see another planet for the first time.
By that logic, Amos is guilty and a "bad person" for killing Strictland, instead of having him stand trial for his crimes, yet that scene is lauded by everyone. If so, Murtry was justified in seeking extrajudicial punishment on the terrorists that killed 23 innocent people.
@@MrSmokinDragon did Murtry actually hear full confirmation that all those belters committed the bombing during that Belter conspiracy huddle? I can't remember tbh --- if so, you're right, Murtry was in the right. If he didn't have 100% proof & there was even a TINY chance just one of them wasn't involved, he was in the wrong to execute them all. Amos caught the scientist red handed with kidnapped children.
Yeah, living in space (or a significantly lower gravitational field) is a one way street. The body adapts and eventually becomes incapable of surviving in a strong gravitational field. There is no going back. Eventually human beings may split into two species: Belters and Inners.
The fact that some Belters were able to adapt and live on Illus without dying indicates that it's not a strictly one way street. The body CAN adapt back. Except it takes a lot and most people (who are born and raised in space and Zero G) don't survive the effort. You would probably have more luck with children, whose bodies haven't fully developed (even though it would be tougher and more painful for them initially)
_Illus_ isn't doing anything, it's been dead (or shut down) for a _very_ long time... _the Investigator,_ however, is pushing buttons, seemingly at random, without apparently having any idea what they do... and some of them, it seems, activate massive drilling machines, or cause a chain of islands on the other side of the world to start heating up. But that doesn't mean there's any _plan_ or _intention_ behind it, besides the Investigator's mission to find out what happened to the ring makers, which has absolutely no relation to whatever purposes the devices it's activating were designed for. (That said... if someone were to, say, push the button to open an automated door _without first opening the padlock that's holding it shut,_ for instance... well, things could get _interesting_ in ways not necessarily anticipated by whoever built the door or the padlock...)
Then that's a poorly constructed door (...and padlock).... - if the person who constructed them never anticipated what would happen if you tried to open the door without first unlocking the padlock. How do you know the padlock is working correctly if you don't anticipate (or test) what will happen if someone tries to open the door that it's supposed to be locking without first unlocking it?
@@Cbricklyne Fair enough, but we're talking about people whose automated system's reaction when they can't connect to the main server is to start randomly pushing buttons, here... 🤷♂️ (Also, in our world - and possibly in Illus, who knows - the door and the padlock will probably have been built by different manufacturers, who never considered the possibility that the end user would use both at the same time...)
murtry should not be going around dispensing vigilante justice. but the belters are not any better. when murtry went to the leader and said that her people killed his. she didn't even bother to check with anyone or investigate. she just basically stuck her fingers in her ears and started going "lalalalalalala". if drummer was the leader, she would check to see if there is any truth to the claims, she would then hand out her own justice to her people and make an example of them so no one else would dare do shit behind her back. and murtry is not looking for an eye for an eye. he lost 20 some thing people. he doesn't want to kill 20 some thing people back. he just wanted the handful that was involved. holden is also somewhat to blame. instead of trying to mediate the situation and contain it. he's basically just said "i don't give a shit and i am going to stick my dick in this protomolecule shit" :D note that after everything amos and holden and naomi have done to help the belters even tho they too are in the wrong, murtry still isn't resorting to force. even after naomi got back to the ship , holden was the one to punch murtry first while murtry was still trying to reason with him. this season really opened my eyes to the fact that even tho belters have been trod on, it doesn't mean they are always in the right and that they are always innocent. the writing is so good in this season to actually make me take a step back from being all "i love belters, belters are the best, i hope belters win" : p and they have written murtry very well. he is basically amos if everyone on the roci was killed and amos ended up in charge of protecting a bunch of scientists. the muscle with no one good to guide him. finding answers the only way he knows how, at the end of a fist or a gun.
The situation with the Belters and the shuttle and taking out the landing pad isn't as simple as it seems (in either of your views). It will become clearer from Lucia's end in coming episodes, needless to say, it isn't all black and white.
Regarding the belters' _"weakness",_ look for instance at deaf culture. There's deaf people who, when offered the opportunity of getting a cochlear implant, will refuse it because they see being deaf _as part of their identity_ and culture (they _do_ have their own languages, after all, and a different experience of reality than non-deaf people). I'm not arguing whether I believe that's reasonable or not, mind (I don't want to open _that_ can of worms), I'm just pointing out that it's something that _people in the real world_ do... so it makes sense that at least some belters would, too, particularly given that they've probably built much more of a community and culture around said _"disabilities"..._ they may be belters, but they're still _human..._ and this _is_ the sort of thing humans do. 🤷♂️
Maybe you two mentioned it and I missed it, but there is a clear parallel going on with the Belter's struggle to stop being oppressed, corrupted, and negatively stereotyped by the inners and what's happening on Illus and Mars. With Illus, you clearly see how they have to operate on the assumption that the inners are always coming to take their stuff. They tried to rename the planet to New Terra before they even got there. Then, as soon, Murtry found out someone blew up his ship, he went full bigot and started trading the Belters like they were expendable. On Nars, you se how quickly everything was corrupted by the lack of unifying vision. Discipline was quickly overrun by greed. They were already prejudiced against Earth and the Belt, which definitely didn't change, so they probably exported all that aggressive hate it to the new worlds and are in the process of leaving behind what will eventually turn into the same thing the Belters have always experienced. Obviously, I love this show and I'm enjoying your reactions immensely. I can't wait to catch up to your reactions for season 5!
So many subjects, so many thoughts I have right now racing in my brain. I apologize, because it might be a little ... long. Holden. Notice how he is behaving, I think that he is a bit pissed with Miller or the Investigator and that is why he fired this torpedo in the previous episode. Under stress some men resort to violence more likely than other. I don't think that who Holden is, but there seems to be some tension... Also how powerful a weapon Rocinante really is! Those tiny guns we have seen in space are killers on the ground. He has the most powerful tool in the entire star system and he used it, but how much he can do against someone as Murtry? Mars. The more dedicated a culture to a purpose is the shock of discovering the purpose is not really that much important anymore can be so... devastating. I think that martian society and its leadership is quite disoriented. The state works, the military works, the terraforming continues but certainly with much less dedication than before. Notice that this belligerent ( the awesome/scary WHO ARE WE!?! speech by Bobby in E1S2) Martian Navy which was so keen to face Earth's forces DIDN'T WIN the war they were created to win. They didn't lose it either, but a draw is a draw. Perhaps more than that - they are no longer as important in the society of this new, much more peaceful way of life the Solar System sees right now - in a way they remind be the Prussian forces after the 1st WW - which could find a place in the Weimar Republic. After the fall of the Soviet Union seemingly disciplined forces outside of the SU were literally falling apart and for example those forces left in Poland were a sorry sight - you could easily purchase a piece of equipment, fuel (imagine what jet fuel can do with a car) or even a weapon from any of them. Seriously a friend of my younger sister bought a grenade and brought it to school... thankfully a practice piece, but you can get my message here - a demilitarized formerly militarized society is a problem - to itself and to other countries. Many, many former soldiers are recruited as mercenaries or as criminals and in Russia many formed armies for the mafia. And it is hard to blame those Mars ex-soldiers who will join the criminals - right now they are those 'takers' to use the term they were insulting Earthers with... Marco. Oh such a dashing, charismatic person and a problem to any new, forming state. Popular heroes of freedom fighting period can easily destroy a state if they are not put under control. Or given a serious governmental position. Notice that much older, experienced Ashford is in this government - its military branch. What happens if Marco leads one of those wonderfully heroic attacks on an Earth or Mars vessel? How many people on recently militarized Mars or on the old mother Earth would enjoy to respond to such an attack? Hell, for some Martians it could be something they need right now. Sorry for the length of this stuff, but it could be worse. Regards and take care!
Marco is like Che Guevara - even when the Belters have won, have their own government and are officially accepted as a power by the Inners, he still wans to varry on the revolution.
@@kidgforce1 Yes, that is pretty good example, though it remains to be seen (at the moment of this episode - no spoilers) how much Marco is capable of change if at all. Personally I thought more about a type of person comparable to Chechen Shamil Basayev - a terrorist, a mercenary, a warrior - so rather dark character. Why about him? Because he helped in defending the independence of a newly formed state of Chechenya only to help bringing it down giving an excuse to a certain little known politician - Vladimir Putin. Also I'll mention that the 1920s give as a whole choice of people like this - from all those guys in German Freikorps to less known individuals who nonetheless made some impact in history. Mad baron Roman Fyodorovich von Ungern-Sternberg who attempted to rebuild the Mongol Empire, hardly an angel Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz (of Poland, of Belorus, of Russia) who helped the Whites, defended Estonia and Poland, tried to defend Belorus and defeat the Soviets and even at retirement in 1939 faced the Nazis or even to some degree Merian Caldwell Cooper - US general and Polish colonel who after the Great War fought in defence of Poland became an influentail film maker awarded with Oscar... Some people do not want to stop - for better or worse.
Living in apace doesn't make Belters "weaker" "Weaker" in this case, is a relative term. Yes, they are "weak" or struggle when put in a n environment with a gravity well and full atmosphere. But fact of the matter is that they are how they are because their bodies have perfectly adapted to their living environment (low g, low atmospheric pressure). We lose body muscle and bone mass when we live for extended periods in space, as well as lung capacity because it's a detriment - not a benefit - for the body to carry all that muscle and bone mass in a zero or low G environment when it doesn't need to. More muscles and bone mass means the body needs more oxygen (and food) to power and sustain those muscles which in turn requires high lung capacity, which for it's part is not possible in a low atmospheric pressure (lower than 1 Earth atmosphere) environment like space stations or the Belter settlements. Which means your body would be doing more work (and struggling) to sustain all that extra muscle and mass when it doesn't even need to. Hence the reason the body sheds all that mass and muscle and bone density - which we - the Inners - have expressly because the human body needs them to resist gravity or the gravitational pull of the Earth from crushing you to the surface. And because the Earth has a decent enough atmosphere providing the necessary oxygen, an equilibrium is reached that results in how we've evolved as a human race. So yeah, Belters are not "weak", or "weaker|" They are adapted (perfectly) to their environment even though relative to us they may seem "weaker" (and only in OUR environment). In space it's YOU who is at a disadvantage and your body adapts accordingly when you spend a long time there.
They would be weaker, relatively, in both environments as denser bones would be more durable and a stronger heart could move more blood in either environment. Unless there's info in the books that states that the anatomy of an inner is somehow a handicap in the outer planets?
@@krashd It IS (a handicap in the out planets....and in space). And its not "info in books" per se, but research we have right here and NOW iin how we know that all the extra mass, muscle-mass and bone-density in a zero-g or low-g environment is a detriment or a "handicap" to the human body. We know because we've observed it happening to astronauts to go to space and spend extended periods of time in space like at the International Space Station. And we've known this since the beginning of the Space program (both in the US and Russia). Their bodies immediately begin shedding mass, muscle and bone density the longer they spend up there, and they are required to do at least 2 hours of extended resistance exercises ON the space station to mitigate this because they'll need their mass and muscles when they get back to Earth. The human body does this because like I said, it's tougher work for it to keep all that mass and muscles up there in a low g environment when it doesn't need it and it's more work on the heart (also an organ entirely composes of muscle itself). So no, sorry you're wrong. And that's why I said "weaker" is the wrong term to use here because it's comparing their strength to living in an environment it's not adapted to. Would you say you're "weaker" than a person who lives in a high altitude area who probably has higher lung capacity due to the lower oxygen levels the higher you go? Even though they may not be as "muscular" as you are? Do you not struggle when you go to high mountain regions as a result and does therefore mean you're "weaker"? Of course not. You're not adapted to live there and neither is majority of the human race. But after a while your body does adapt but its an adaptation that wouldn't serve it when you return to sea level or a lower altitude and would even be (in some situations) a handicap. Like I said, the body adapts to what it needs and where it is located, not according to some baseline that YOU think it should be "strong" or "weak" relative to some other person.
@@Cbricklyne You are comparing the micro-gravity of weightlessness (which is near zero-G) to the low gravity of the moon and Ceres, massive difference.
What's the political situation on mars? Tht gouvernment must be weak, torn between the old idealism and the new possibilities. Many Martians, I guess, dont't want to wait another 150 years to have an atmosphere and water, when they could colonize a new planet in this generation. If I were the Martian gouvernment, I would start to build colonization ships.
What's the point of terraforming Mars when they've got hundreds of already habitable planets that are already mostly habitable..? Between the end of the hostilities and the ring network, Martian society has suffered a massive system shock... and might very well not survive it.
@@Martiancamel How is this a spoiler in any way shape or form? It's just reasoning / speculation based on what we've seen so far this season, and what we know about Martians from previous seasons. 🤷♂️ A spoiler would have been, for instance, mentioning the protomolecule back during season one before it was properly introduced... this is just discussion about what we've seen so far.
@@mbpoblet because it will be answered in another episode. you figured it out cause you are observant. They couldn't and they said clearly in their discussion. "We are sure we will know about it later". But no you have to tell them right away. Is this not considered a spoiler?
@@Martiancamel _What_ other episode? o_O It's been _"answered"_ (as much as it will be) already by the events so far in the series... *[BOOK SPOILERS BELOW]* ...and, frankly, it's not necessarily the _right_ answer. Or the _whole answer,_ at the very least.
In the Belters defense, what gives Earth the right to decide who gets to settle there? The Earthers dont OWN space. They had every right to shoot down an invading force.
Wait what, you said she just made a mistake? just a simple mistake that killed 23 people uh hahah come on guys, and you say Murtry's is unreasonable. i mean i get that's dificult to relate to Murtry since he's pretty ruthless and cold, i and we didn't even got to meet the people that got killed, but thats a lot of people. Murtry is indeed set on revenge, but that's not his only motive, remember, its more than implied that those belter radicals were antagonizing and threatening the RCE people since they arrived, and the belter far outnumber the RCE survivors, if they became organized they could easely wipe out the earthers, Murtry acted out a preemtive strike, and even if you don't find that morally correct, taking out the liders capable of comanding the rest, is the smart choice in this situation, listen, am all for belters, they have it rough, but on this case, his actions are justified in my opinion, so far at least. I think the show is doing and excelent job of turning everything on its head, the author created a situation where the opressors became the minority for once.
@Kent Goertzen what do you think the rest of the belters would do? Just sit there and watch their own people be prived of their freedom? Radical or not humans are tribal, it would likely unite them towards one goal, liberating their kind and by default, wiping out the earthers, instead if your kill the leader of a group, there's a chance that they'll fall on disarray and comply, fear is a great weapon, and even if that's not the case, as I said RCE are outnumbered, so by killing the most able fighters and commanders, you balance out the odds.
@Kent Goertzen how do you know it wouldn't have united them? Its a very likely outcome, come on, this exact same scenario has been played out countless times in the history of warfare. Let's be real conflict was inevitable at that point, you think those OPA guys wouldve just let go of all their hatred and grievances for earthers? No way, who acts first can prove essential to survival, and yes I'm excusing murder for the sake of survival, I would've done the same if I was in his shoes. it's more effective to take drastic measures in this type of situations than risk looking week to the rival factions, it's just psychology, no matter how much we've evolved we're still animals, a show of dominance can sometimes be enough to diffuse further violence.
@Kent Goertzenby the way there's no need to assume out of a simple opinión what kind of person I am, it's very ignorant and shallow, can't you just have a friendly discussion about the plot point of a TV show?
@Kent Goertzen people don't need to be inherently violent to fight back against what they belive is evil or unjust, it's in all of us to fight for survival, all you need for a revolt is a common goal, desperation, fear, and the strong belief that what what you're doing is righteous. And you're right in most cases when tyrants strike citizens, they run away, but what happens when there's nowhere to run like in this case? There's nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal, we are not exempt of that. You sound like an optimist, humans are much simpler and predictable than you'd think
Marc B. Poblet ah yes, let’s just have a trial on the frontier planet a year and a half away from civilization, when the belters already refuse to accept any belters actually committed a crime. That’ll go well. Who will be the jury? The belters who refuse to accept it happened? Or just the people who already know they did it? What do you do when the belters attack Murtry’s men for detaining the terrorists because they refuse to accept what they did? Or would that be Murtry’s fault too?
@@jasondemagio4449 _In dubio pro reo._ If you can't prove guilt (and, without a proper trial you _can't,_ without going down a slippery slope that leads to chaos or dictatorship), you must acquit.
Marc B. Poblet Seems that the chaos already existed, you know, from his crew getting blown up by angry belters? And since the belters refuse to accept it even happened, that means you will never get them to co operate with his investigation. So I guess that means you’re supposed to just let them keep doing it? Nah, that’s ridiculous
@@jasondemagio4449 He could have documented everything, taken the information back to Earth, and dropped the problem on someone else. The belters would have eventually been tried (possibly in absentia), and the victims, including Murray, could have received some sort of compensation, even if the belters couldn't be directly brought to justice. But, instead, he chose to just start murdering suspects.
Amos did it to draw attention so that Naomi and Lucia could get away
Mars had almost zero unemployment until recently, everyone was assigned a task (terraforming, military, etc.) and they were all highly motivated to accomplish it for the greater good (completely the opposite of Earth). That is no longer the case though. This will be explored more, so just wait for it.
This is the episode where Wes Chatam, the actor playing Amos, got punched in the face for real during filming. At the end of the scene the guy who punched him was horrified and kept apologizing. "What are you apologizing for?" "Dude, I punched you in the face!" "Wait, really?" He was so into the scene he didn't even notice! He recalled that moment in an interview with Adam Savage. Wes Chatam is great :D
I love how in this episode they use a lot more classic western shots, the hero/villian cut, the wide panoramic shot with the hero/villian. The directors went all in on the western themes in this episode.
The belter physiology is something you cannot portray in a TV series on a reasonable budget. They go with tattoos and hairdos, but that is only a crutch.
In the books belters are instantly recognizable by their height and build. Naomi isn't particularly tall for a belter but she is still towering over Holden by maybe 25 centimeters.
Such distinctiveness reenforces tribal identity.
Even the shape of their skulls is different
Kat is right, Mars dedicated their society to building a Garden of Eden. But then that ring opened and made available over a thousand new gardens of Eden. Overnight, Mars' whole unifying purpose was evaporated.
why do people keep spoiling? They literally said that they can't think of the reason and you straight up give them the answer.
That’s not a spoiler, it’s discussion on things already shown/mentioned. Where later episodes may state things in a more clear way, you can deduce what was written here without any future conent.
@@Martiancamel There's no spoilers here. The ring gate opened and revealed habitable worlds at the end of Season 3.
@@Martiancamel
Nothing was spoiled, my dude.
Most people already figured out most of that long before they get to the episode where it's explicitly laid out.
@@Cbricklyne Like you said, most people already figured it out but they haven't. Why spell it out right now instead of letting them figuring it out themselves? The realization would not be as impactlful when you already know the message the show is trying to tell you. They even said that they are sure they will know more about it later.
"So much tension, everywhere! All the time!", I could've sworn you were talking about our actual world right now because it is. This show is such a look into a mirror of us now and I love it so damn much. Great reaction all day all the time. Much Love you two!
I loved seeing how powerful the PDC was in-atmo, so cool
No, Amos never does anything without a strategy.. he was distracting the earthers so Naomi could get away... or stay hidden.
I love watching your guys reaction. So much so that I bing watched all seasons of the expanse this week. Haha I didn’t know this series was also books. From what I’ve been told the show is pretty close to the books.
The dock foreman wasn't in on Esai's black marketing operation, but he sees the potential profits to be had in undertaking something similar.
I don't recall if I've made this point here before, but while Holden's end of the story is checking boxes off on the "classic western archetype" list, Bobbie is on a very different path. She's trapped in a "film noir" setting, the thoroughly disillusioned warrior home from the battlefield only to discover that her homeland's ideals have become irreversibly corrupted. Lucky for her, she's already a femme fatale.
the dream fell apart, with all those new plants why work on mars
Murtry is perhaps my second favorite character this season. He's the one who's correct. The people we've been following have killed too, with us cheering. Now we meet someone who does what he needs to do and has no moral qualms about it, so many see him as bad. If we were surrounded by people who wanted us dead, and several of them had just killed over 20 of our friends and colleagues with a bomb, we wouldn't care about mercy either.
True, but Murtry has to follow rules like anyone else, in fact even more so due to him being in command. If leaders in the army acted on emotion then civilian massacres during times of war would be regular occurrences rather than rare occurrences because soldiers are ALWAYS in hostile territory.
How quickly we forget, those belters were already in the throws of a second attack. Murtry has confirmation that Lucia was one of them. Frontier justice. He isn't wrong or no more wrong than anyone else. Just think of how many folks our Roci crew+Bobbi have killed, who were actually correct or just following orders. He just comes off as an ass so he gets flack, but would he get treated this way if we liked him? Perspective.
yup. Murtry is a madman, but I find it hard to understand some of the vitriol directed at him. 4 out of the 5 belters intended to kill everyone on the shuttle, and the last one went along as an accomplish. Lets reimagine the situation: The Rocinante is touching down, and some OPA members sets off an explosive that kills Holden and Alex. Would the same hate be directed at Naomi or Amos when they take the law into their own hands? I seriously doubt it. There was universal cheers when Amos killed Strickland, after all. Up to this episode, all Murtry has done has been justified in some way, its only later his bloodlust makes him step over the line.
So... you're an "ends justifies the means" type person...
Thanks for your reactions and thoughts afterward. This show is so philosophical at times, it is dealing with so many larger issues ALONG with a great story and action (with incredible cast of truly memorable characters). Love this series (tv and books). Can’t wait for your next episode. Stay safe.
It is really very interesting to see how a government based on war and struggle works when there is no war anymore.
Mars is becoming more and more like what they loathed all along.
The story around the Belter will be very exciting and far reaching for everyone.
All in all I find this season a little bit calmer, especially in the first episodes. But later it becomes more intnesive, which I really liked from the storytelling.
It’s reminiscent of the collapse of the Soviet Union, how even high ranking military officers were selling off gear to the highest bidder.
You are going to love Ashford :)
Everyone seems to have a lot of sympathy for Lucia and thinks she is so innocent. To me she is, alongside the other accomplices and Murtry also guilty. Lucia should be arrested and put on trial along with the others that worked alongside her. She does show remorse which will work in her favour but she has to take the punishment whichever the courts give her. Murtry is a very unlikable person, but until he killed the first Belter he was innocent. Now he is just as bad as the Belters that struck the ship. Many of the people on the ship were scientists that were excited to see another planet for the first time.
By that logic, Amos is guilty and a "bad person" for killing Strictland, instead of having him stand trial for his crimes, yet that scene is lauded by everyone. If so, Murtry was justified in seeking extrajudicial punishment on the terrorists that killed 23 innocent people.
@@MrSmokinDragon did Murtry actually hear full confirmation that all those belters committed the bombing during that Belter conspiracy huddle? I can't remember tbh --- if so, you're right, Murtry was in the right.
If he didn't have 100% proof & there was even a TINY chance just one of them wasn't involved, he was in the wrong to execute them all. Amos caught the scientist red handed with kidnapped children.
Yeah, living in space (or a significantly lower gravitational field) is a one way street. The body adapts and eventually becomes incapable of surviving in a strong gravitational field. There is no going back. Eventually human beings may split into two species: Belters and Inners.
The fact that some Belters were able to adapt and live on Illus without dying indicates that it's not a strictly one way street.
The body CAN adapt back.
Except it takes a lot and most people (who are born and raised in space and Zero G) don't survive the effort.
You would probably have more luck with children, whose bodies haven't fully developed (even though it would be tougher and more painful for them initially)
Problem with Mars is that why terraform when there are 1300 habitable planets out there. Dream of Mars is kind of dead
_Illus_ isn't doing anything, it's been dead (or shut down) for a _very_ long time... _the Investigator,_ however, is pushing buttons, seemingly at random, without apparently having any idea what they do... and some of them, it seems, activate massive drilling machines, or cause a chain of islands on the other side of the world to start heating up. But that doesn't mean there's any _plan_ or _intention_ behind it, besides the Investigator's mission to find out what happened to the ring makers, which has absolutely no relation to whatever purposes the devices it's activating were designed for.
(That said... if someone were to, say, push the button to open an automated door _without first opening the padlock that's holding it shut,_ for instance... well, things could get _interesting_ in ways not necessarily anticipated by whoever built the door or the padlock...)
Then that's a poorly constructed door (...and padlock)....
- if the person who constructed them never anticipated what would happen if you tried to open the door without first unlocking the padlock.
How do you know the padlock is working correctly if you don't anticipate (or test) what will happen if someone tries to open the door that it's supposed to be locking without first unlocking it?
@@Cbricklyne Fair enough, but we're talking about people whose automated system's reaction when they can't connect to the main server is to start randomly pushing buttons, here... 🤷♂️
(Also, in our world - and possibly in Illus, who knows - the door and the padlock will probably have been built by different manufacturers, who never considered the possibility that the end user would use both at the same time...)
murtry should not be going around dispensing vigilante justice. but the belters are not any better. when murtry went to the leader and said that her people killed his. she didn't even bother to check with anyone or investigate. she just basically stuck her fingers in her ears and started going "lalalalalalala". if drummer was the leader, she would check to see if there is any truth to the claims, she would then hand out her own justice to her people and make an example of them so no one else would dare do shit behind her back. and murtry is not looking for an eye for an eye. he lost 20 some thing people. he doesn't want to kill 20 some thing people back. he just wanted the handful that was involved.
holden is also somewhat to blame. instead of trying to mediate the situation and contain it. he's basically just said "i don't give a shit and i am going to stick my dick in this protomolecule shit" :D note that after everything amos and holden and naomi have done to help the belters even tho they too are in the wrong, murtry still isn't resorting to force. even after naomi got back to the ship , holden was the one to punch murtry first while murtry was still trying to reason with him.
this season really opened my eyes to the fact that even tho belters have been trod on, it doesn't mean they are always in the right and that they are always innocent. the writing is so good in this season to actually make me take a step back from being all "i love belters, belters are the best, i hope belters win" : p and they have written murtry very well. he is basically amos if everyone on the roci was killed and amos ended up in charge of protecting a bunch of scientists. the muscle with no one good to guide him. finding answers the only way he knows how, at the end of a fist or a gun.
What made you guys laugh like that, I couldn't tell because of the subtitles hiding the screen .
At the start of our reaction? Or when do you mean?
The situation with the Belters and the shuttle and taking out the landing pad isn't as simple as it seems (in either of your views).
It will become clearer from Lucia's end in coming episodes, needless to say, it isn't all black and white.
Regarding the belters' _"weakness",_ look for instance at deaf culture. There's deaf people who, when offered the opportunity of getting a cochlear implant, will refuse it because they see being deaf _as part of their identity_ and culture (they _do_ have their own languages, after all, and a different experience of reality than non-deaf people). I'm not arguing whether I believe that's reasonable or not, mind (I don't want to open _that_ can of worms), I'm just pointing out that it's something that _people in the real world_ do... so it makes sense that at least some belters would, too, particularly given that they've probably built much more of a community and culture around said _"disabilities"..._ they may be belters, but they're still _human..._ and this _is_ the sort of thing humans do. 🤷♂️
Maybe you two mentioned it and I missed it, but there is a clear parallel going on with the Belter's struggle to stop being oppressed, corrupted, and negatively stereotyped by the inners and what's happening on Illus and Mars. With Illus, you clearly see how they have to operate on the assumption that the inners are always coming to take their stuff. They tried to rename the planet to New Terra before they even got there. Then, as soon, Murtry found out someone blew up his ship, he went full bigot and started trading the Belters like they were expendable. On Nars, you se how quickly everything was corrupted by the lack of unifying vision. Discipline was quickly overrun by greed. They were already prejudiced against Earth and the Belt, which definitely didn't change, so they probably exported all that aggressive hate it to the new worlds and are in the process of leaving behind what will eventually turn into the same thing the Belters have always experienced.
Obviously, I love this show and I'm enjoying your reactions immensely. I can't wait to catch up to your reactions for season 5!
With Naomi up and out of the way Jim doesn't have to be vulnerable, as long as he doesn't get taken on a trip by his imaginary friend.
So many subjects, so many thoughts I have right now racing in my brain. I apologize, because it might be a little ... long.
Holden. Notice how he is behaving, I think that he is a bit pissed with Miller or the Investigator and that is why he fired this torpedo in the previous episode.
Under stress some men resort to violence more likely than other. I don't think that who Holden is, but there seems to be some tension... Also how powerful a weapon Rocinante really is! Those tiny guns we have seen in space are killers on the ground. He has the most powerful tool in the entire star system and he used it, but how much he can do against someone as Murtry?
Mars. The more dedicated a culture to a purpose is the shock of discovering the purpose is not really that much important anymore can be so... devastating. I think that martian society and its leadership is quite disoriented. The state works, the military works, the terraforming continues but certainly with much less dedication than before. Notice that this belligerent ( the awesome/scary WHO ARE WE!?! speech by Bobby in E1S2) Martian Navy which was so keen to face Earth's forces DIDN'T WIN the war they were created to win. They didn't lose it either, but a draw is a draw.
Perhaps more than that - they are no longer as important in the society of this new, much more peaceful way of life the Solar System sees right now - in a way they remind be the Prussian forces after the 1st WW - which could find a place in the Weimar Republic. After the fall of the Soviet Union seemingly disciplined forces outside of the SU were literally falling apart and for example those forces left in Poland were a sorry sight - you could easily purchase a piece of equipment, fuel (imagine what jet fuel can do with a car) or even a weapon from any of them. Seriously a friend of my younger sister bought a grenade and brought it to school... thankfully a practice piece, but you can get my message here - a demilitarized formerly militarized society is a problem - to itself and to other countries. Many, many former soldiers are recruited as mercenaries or as criminals and in Russia many formed armies for the mafia.
And it is hard to blame those Mars ex-soldiers who will join the criminals - right now they are those 'takers' to use the term they were insulting Earthers with...
Marco. Oh such a dashing, charismatic person and a problem to any new, forming state. Popular heroes of freedom fighting period can easily destroy a state if they are not put under control. Or given a serious governmental position. Notice that much older, experienced Ashford is in this government - its military branch. What happens if Marco leads one of those wonderfully heroic attacks on an Earth or Mars vessel? How many people on recently militarized Mars or on the old mother Earth would enjoy to respond to such an attack? Hell, for some Martians it could be something they need right now.
Sorry for the length of this stuff, but it could be worse.
Regards and take care!
Marco is like Che Guevara - even when the Belters have won, have their own government and are officially accepted as a power by the Inners, he still wans to varry on the revolution.
@@kidgforce1 Yes, that is pretty good example, though it remains to be seen (at the moment of this episode - no spoilers) how much Marco is capable of change if at all.
Personally I thought more about a type of person comparable to Chechen Shamil Basayev - a terrorist, a mercenary, a warrior - so rather dark character. Why about him? Because he helped in defending the independence of a newly formed state of Chechenya only to help bringing it down giving an excuse to a certain little known politician - Vladimir Putin.
Also I'll mention that the 1920s give as a whole choice of people like this - from all those guys in German Freikorps to less known individuals who nonetheless made some impact in history. Mad baron Roman Fyodorovich von Ungern-Sternberg who attempted to rebuild the Mongol Empire, hardly an angel Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz (of Poland, of Belorus, of Russia) who helped the Whites, defended Estonia and Poland, tried to defend Belorus and defeat the Soviets and even at retirement in 1939 faced the Nazis or even to some degree Merian Caldwell Cooper - US general and Polish colonel who after the Great War fought in defence of Poland became an influentail film maker awarded with Oscar...
Some people do not want to stop - for better or worse.
It's sad that with the discovery of multiple habitable new planets the incredible resolve of Mars collapsed, tbh Mars is a MESS now.
Living in apace doesn't make Belters "weaker"
"Weaker" in this case, is a relative term. Yes, they are "weak" or struggle when put in a n environment with a gravity well and full atmosphere.
But fact of the matter is that they are how they are because their bodies have perfectly adapted to their living environment (low g, low atmospheric pressure).
We lose body muscle and bone mass when we live for extended periods in space, as well as lung capacity because it's a detriment - not a benefit - for the body to carry all that muscle and bone mass in a zero or low G environment when it doesn't need to. More muscles and bone mass means the body needs more oxygen (and food) to power and sustain those muscles which in turn requires high lung capacity, which for it's part is not possible in a low atmospheric pressure (lower than 1 Earth atmosphere) environment like space stations or the Belter settlements. Which means your body would be doing more work (and struggling) to sustain all that extra muscle and mass when it doesn't even need to.
Hence the reason the body sheds all that mass and muscle and bone density - which we - the Inners - have expressly because the human body needs them to resist gravity or the gravitational pull of the Earth from crushing you to the surface.
And because the Earth has a decent enough atmosphere providing the necessary oxygen, an equilibrium is reached that results in how we've evolved as a human race.
So yeah, Belters are not "weak", or "weaker|"
They are adapted (perfectly) to their environment even though relative to us they may seem "weaker" (and only in OUR environment). In space it's YOU who is at a disadvantage and your body adapts accordingly when you spend a long time there.
They would be weaker, relatively, in both environments as denser bones would be more durable and a stronger heart could move more blood in either environment. Unless there's info in the books that states that the anatomy of an inner is somehow a handicap in the outer planets?
Sure, Dawes sister wasn't weaker, just different.
@@krashd
It IS (a handicap in the out planets....and in space).
And its not "info in books" per se, but research we have right here and NOW iin how we know that all the extra mass, muscle-mass and bone-density in a zero-g or low-g environment is a detriment or a "handicap" to the human body. We know because we've observed it happening to astronauts to go to space and spend extended periods of time in space like at the International Space Station. And we've known this since the beginning of the Space program (both in the US and Russia). Their bodies immediately begin shedding mass, muscle and bone density the longer they spend up there, and they are required to do at least 2 hours of extended resistance exercises ON the space station to mitigate this because they'll need their mass and muscles when they get back to Earth. The human body does this because like I said, it's tougher work for it to keep all that mass and muscles up there in a low g environment when it doesn't need it and it's more work on the heart (also an organ entirely composes of muscle itself).
So no, sorry you're wrong.
And that's why I said "weaker" is the wrong term to use here because it's comparing their strength to living in an environment it's not adapted to.
Would you say you're "weaker" than a person who lives in a high altitude area who probably has higher lung capacity due to the lower oxygen levels the higher you go? Even though they may not be as "muscular" as you are? Do you not struggle when you go to high mountain regions as a result and does therefore mean you're "weaker"? Of course not. You're not adapted to live there and neither is majority of the human race. But after a while your body does adapt but its an adaptation that wouldn't serve it when you return to sea level or a lower altitude and would even be (in some situations) a handicap.
Like I said, the body adapts to what it needs and where it is located, not according to some baseline that YOU think it should be "strong" or "weak" relative to some other person.
@@Cbricklyne You are comparing the micro-gravity of weightlessness (which is near zero-G) to the low gravity of the moon and Ceres, massive difference.
boom!
Terraformin was the plan until they saw the new planets.
It seems to _still_ be the plan, at least for some... but, of course, it's now much more difficult to justify, from an economic standpoint...
What's the political situation on mars? Tht gouvernment must be weak, torn between the old idealism and the new possibilities. Many Martians, I guess, dont't want to wait another 150 years to have an atmosphere and water, when they could colonize a new planet in this generation. If I were the Martian gouvernment, I would start to build colonization ships.
I did not get a notification :/
What's the point of terraforming Mars when they've got hundreds of already habitable planets that are already mostly habitable..? Between the end of the hostilities and the ring network, Martian society has suffered a massive system shock... and might very well not survive it.
dude...if they couldn't figure it out yet, let them be. You are spoiling. I get you like this show but you shouldn't be answering their questions.
@@Martiancamel How is this a spoiler in any way shape or form? It's just reasoning / speculation based on what we've seen so far this season, and what we know about Martians from previous seasons. 🤷♂️
A spoiler would have been, for instance, mentioning the protomolecule back during season one before it was properly introduced... this is just discussion about what we've seen so far.
@@mbpoblet because it will be answered in another episode. you figured it out cause you are observant. They couldn't and they said clearly in their discussion. "We are sure we will know about it later". But no you have to tell them right away. Is this not considered a spoiler?
@@Martiancamel _What_ other episode? o_O
It's been _"answered"_ (as much as it will be) already by the events so far in the series...
*[BOOK SPOILERS BELOW]*
...and, frankly, it's not necessarily the _right_ answer. Or the _whole answer,_ at the very least.
Tequila is the best!
I’m sure it can be great, I just haven’t found one that I’ve been able to keep down 😂
Don't go around shooting people. Unless you are Amos.
Oh Drummer. I thought you'd be smarter.
In the Belters defense, what gives Earth the right to decide who gets to settle there? The Earthers dont OWN space. They had every right to shoot down an invading force.
And every expectation to suffer the consequences.
Wait what, you said she just made a mistake? just a simple mistake that killed 23 people uh hahah come on guys, and you say Murtry's is unreasonable. i mean i get that's dificult to relate to Murtry since he's pretty ruthless and cold, i and we didn't even got to meet the people that got killed, but thats a lot of people. Murtry is indeed set on revenge, but that's not his only motive, remember, its more than implied that those belter radicals were antagonizing and threatening the RCE people since they arrived, and the belter far outnumber the RCE survivors, if they became organized they could easely wipe out the earthers, Murtry acted out a preemtive strike, and even if you don't find that morally correct, taking out the liders capable of comanding the rest, is the smart choice in this situation, listen, am all for belters, they have it rough, but on this case, his actions are justified in my opinion, so far at least. I think the show is doing and excelent job of turning everything on its head, the author created a situation where the opressors became the minority for once.
@Kent Goertzen what do you think the rest of the belters would do? Just sit there and watch their own people be prived of their freedom? Radical or not humans are tribal, it would likely unite them towards one goal, liberating their kind and by default, wiping out the earthers, instead if your kill the leader of a group, there's a chance that they'll fall on disarray and comply, fear is a great weapon, and even if that's not the case, as I said RCE are outnumbered, so by killing the most able fighters and commanders, you balance out the odds.
@Kent Goertzen how do you know it wouldn't have united them? Its a very likely outcome, come on, this exact same scenario has been played out countless times in the history of warfare. Let's be real conflict was inevitable at that point, you think those OPA guys wouldve just let go of all their hatred and grievances for earthers? No way, who acts first can prove essential to survival, and yes I'm excusing murder for the sake of survival, I would've done the same if I was in his shoes. it's more effective to take drastic measures in this type of situations than risk looking week to the rival factions, it's just psychology, no matter how much we've evolved we're still animals, a show of dominance can sometimes be enough to diffuse further violence.
@Kent Goertzenby the way there's no need to assume out of a simple opinión what kind of person I am, it's very ignorant and shallow, can't you just have a friendly discussion about the plot point of a TV show?
@Kent Goertzen people don't need to be inherently violent to fight back against what they belive is evil or unjust, it's in all of us to fight for survival, all you need for a revolt is a common goal, desperation, fear, and the strong belief that what what you're doing is righteous. And you're right in most cases when tyrants strike citizens, they run away, but what happens when there's nowhere to run like in this case? There's nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal, we are not exempt of that. You sound like an optimist, humans are much simpler and predictable than you'd think
Daily reminder that Murtry still didnt do anything wrong
I mean... summarily executing the belters without a proper trial _is_ at least arguably sort of wrong, innit..?
Marc B. Poblet ah yes, let’s just have a trial on the frontier planet a year and a half away from civilization, when the belters already refuse to accept any belters actually committed a crime. That’ll go well.
Who will be the jury? The belters who refuse to accept it happened? Or just the people who already know they did it?
What do you do when the belters attack Murtry’s men for detaining the terrorists because they refuse to accept what they did? Or would that be Murtry’s fault too?
@@jasondemagio4449 _In dubio pro reo._ If you can't prove guilt (and, without a proper trial you _can't,_ without going down a slippery slope that leads to chaos or dictatorship), you must acquit.
Marc B. Poblet Seems that the chaos already existed, you know, from his crew getting blown up by angry belters?
And since the belters refuse to accept it even happened, that means you will never get them to co operate with his investigation. So I guess that means you’re supposed to just let them keep doing it?
Nah, that’s ridiculous
@@jasondemagio4449 He could have documented everything, taken the information back to Earth, and dropped the problem on someone else. The belters would have eventually been tried (possibly in absentia), and the victims, including Murray, could have received some sort of compensation, even if the belters couldn't be directly brought to justice.
But, instead, he chose to just start murdering suspects.
This season is not that good...