I don't know if you guys remember, but when the Sojourner got captured by Marco Inaros, all of it's crew and passengers were spaced, we can see their bodies floating in space near the ring in this second episode, which means that the supposed passengers who were on it when it was charging towards earth might be a fake broadcast.
That conversation between Naomi and Lucia is one of my favorite moments that isn't in the books. Just fantastic performances from both of them, and the dialogue is so powerful.
Not sure if they've explained it well enough on screen, but here's what I understand from the book - probes sent through the ring gates actually found 1300 confirmed habitable systems, but the Mars-Earth-OPA alliance agreed not to allow colonization yet until risks could be assessed. A company on Earth applied for exploration and colonization rights (Murtry's company) but the refugees from Ganymede broke the blockade and squatted on the planet first.
This is a good explanation of where we are at right now. All 1300 planets are "habitable" as in humans can sort of live on the surface to some extent. A possibility is that the ring makers needed the same type of planet as humans. Could be the reason why the original probe was sent to the Sol system. Because Earth was a good candidate for them. Humans are trying to figure out how to explore these ring systems based on a Earth/Mars/OPA agreement which is taking a lot of time. Only a few probs have been sent and not much data is back yet.
@@runningray Seems very likely, yes! The makers of the ring probably were looking for a certain type of planet. How many years ago was the protomolecule sent to Earth, a billion? I wonder from how far away and at what speed, and what Earth looked like at the time it was sent...
Actually its only 1300 systems. They are not all habitable (at least 1 system doesn't even have planets...just a very large.......). They are sending probes to explore every system, 65 systems had been fully scanned at the start of season 4, but its very questionable if these probes can actually land on a planet, check all biology and water, and confirm the planets are "safe" for humans. Remember, Illus was the first planet given a corporate charter but the slugs and eye fungus could not have been identified by probes. Colonization efforts happen after scientific teams are sent to each of the scanned systems. The RCE was the first corporation to be granted the first contract.
rodent nolastname Yes! I saw the marble church, Børsen and Christiansborg. But I also read that the foreground is actually what CPH looks like from Langelinie, but all the skyscrapers and the floodgates in the background are completely fiction. We do not have any sky scrapers here, and probably never will. Even if 2/3 of the country disappears under water because of climate change.
@@KatSonny With their Earth having I believe 30 billion people, surely your country would have skyscrapers. That and dealing with a disappearing coastline.
You two are definitely among my favorite reactors. I love how you guys just let go and allow yourselves to be immersed in the stories you're watching as opposed to worrying about how you may come across on camera.
One thing that should be said is that this episode is a very emotional one, and that they handled the difficult subject matter (in my opinion) very well. Lucia and Naomi have both been through a lot and again I am impressed with how the characters and their emotions were handled. I'm here with you with those tears this episode. Thank you for being kind enough to share your personal reactions to this show with us!
Avasarala isn't against colonizing the new systems, she's against rushing it. She was in the situation room when Eros was in a collision course with Earth so she knows that the protomolocule CAN be a real, civilization ending threat. She is advocating for a slow, methodical, safer approach. Let the science people be science people and maybe start colonizing in 10-30 years when we have a clearer picture of what's going on. Gao just wants to exploit the situation and rush it out not caring at all about the big picture. I'm on Avasarala's on this one. She is thinking long-term while Gao has that "short term gain who cares about the repercussions" that so many politicians have these days and that has brought us to the brink of ecological collapse. People like Gao are the ones that made Copenhagen and Denmark a goddamn archipelago because who cares about the ecological crisis we need to raise the gross domestic product. Sure, Earth system isn't the best, but at least it's safe. Rushing out into space to live among the ruins of an alien civilization that can wipe you out in the blink of an eye? That's just reckless. Imo.
Thank you for that. I tried to explain it to a lot of people and I am frightened that so many of them don't see the problem with Gao. I have to admit that you explained it way better than I can do.
Most of those 1373 systems have at least one habitable planet with breathable atmosphere (seems PM builders needed similar air composition to ours). Ilus just happened to be discovered first by MCRN probe and it's signal was hijacked by belters waiting close to the Ring (book version), in the show we simply had a bit more ships going to other systems, but they turned out to be less lucky than Barbapiccola.
The PM builders themselves didn't need atmospheres like we do, but the protomolecule itself operates by hijacking indigenous self-replicators (meaning: life) in order to build the Rings. So, the Ring gates can only connect to planetary systems that have (or, in a few cases, had) life-sustaining planets.
The OPA thugs as Felcia's husband put it are using the legitimate outrage of the mirrors falling over Ganymede and the subsequent breakdown of the artificial ecosystem to continue the cycle of violence. Great reaction and review as ever guys.
The UN have been moving slowly, probing systems and the OPA on Medina Station have been constructing communications relays through each ring (not all in place yet). They know there are 1300 worlds capable of supporting life but as Kat says, with the Belters forcing their hand, Ilus has become the focal point. I believe RCE already had the exploration charter and in the books, Elvi decries the fact that with the Belters in place and exploiting the lithium deposits that means they can no longer do controlled exploration and science because there has already been a huge amount of cross-contamination.
Since I see no one else in the comments mentioned it, I should note that there is a little but of extra layering to Lucia and what she did in the books that's not shown in the show, but which I felt could have added much more. In the books Lucia and her husband happen to be the parents of Kotoa, and they had trusted him to be medically treated by Strickland just like Mei was by Prax - only to have him be turned intoa protomolecule hybrid/weapon and then have to be killed horribly So Lucia's distrust of Inners isn't necessarily only limited to Economic prospects of losing a means of making a living on Illus, but it (at least in the books ) was also driven by what happened to her son and extends to also mistrusting Inner Scientists like Strickland (which the Edward Israel crew essentially are) and believing (justifiably so) that they're coming to either kill Belters or use/abuse them. So in the books there's some context to why she did what she did beyond just mistrust and revenge, that's not shown on the show. I'm not really sure why they decided to remove that context. But I imagine they didn't want to complicate her storyline more than it already is.
Violence only puts an end to violence if you completely wipe out your enemy, otherwise your 'beaten' enemy is just going to get back up and attack you again, but with more hatred. In an honourable world a beaten enemy would shake your hand but in reality they more often than not just return with a knife, that's why those who don't want to be looking over their shoulder for the rest of their life use diplomacy instead.
Violence is actually very good at solving a lot of things. Remember that war is, and has been, the best way to boost a countries economics. Empires were built for a reason.......and it wasn't to explore.
@@jrich749 Are ... are we just going to ignore all the instances or war destroying or draining a country's economy? Or, y'know, destroying the country itself? Is this where we are in the War Is Good rhetoric?
@@krashd And yet Germans, Japanese, etc. still exist and show no sign of ongoing violence against the allies. There are lots and lots of examples of successful violence that didn't involve genocide. For that matter, what country has a legal system that isn't based on violence and the threat of violence? Governments exist to perform organized violence.
Loved Alex and his plight with Lucia. Naomi’s speech was SO powerful I feel so sorry for Holden. Yes, not a fan of DickFace, either. Love you reactions.
Little bit of lore, in the books they allude to the fact that they do "nothing" about climate change until 2150. At that time, theres a large global conflict and when it ends they decide turn the UN in to a republic overseeing all countries. Since 2010 , the world population has tripled and the seas rose by about 25 meters. It's a stark picture of the future, not very probable imo but definitely possible. So afterwards the UN creates a bunch of strict rules about reproduction, jobs, resources and all that. That's why a bunch of people leave for Mars. Years later, living on Mars and the Moon creates more innovation in fields like terraforming, sustainable living, transportation, energy, space flight... So they eventually manage the climate and set their sights on the belt and the outer planets for new resources. And now I guess Illus is just caught up in this neverending expans-ion process lol.
@@krashd Actually, if every piece of frozen water, on earth, melted it would raise sea level by about 65 meters.....so 25 meters is actually very possible: www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/05/09/heres-what-earth-would-look-like-if-all-the-ice-melted/#2ebc9fdec495 Remember, the book writers pulled a lot of data from scientific resources. They are not just making up random science facts.
It's 1300 star systems (or Solar Systems. Actually it's 1373 in the book) each with at least one habitable planet. It's possible to imagine some star systems with more than one habitable planet orbiting the Sun (like our own Solar system once was before Mars lost it's Magnetic field and then its atmosphere hundreds of millions of years ago when its core stopped spinning). But yeah the gate systems opened up ring gates to 1,300 (or 1,373) stars with orbiting planets with at least a habitable planet (or more) among them.
Cbricklyne thank you I didn’t know that, I’ve listened to the audiobook books but you miss a lot of stuff. If that’s the case there are more than enough to expand on, I know the show needs the tension but I would just let the belters go, then separate in case this blue goo thing goes awry
About probing the 1300 new systems, without the Belter communications relays through ring gates (of which they've installed 100+ some already?) a probe would take probably more than one year to be built, launched, travel to reach habitable zone planets, survey, and return to the ring space to transmit data to be analysed. Even with the Belter communications relays, the probes would probably still take many months to do the same.
"told u, a fukng cliffhanger" :D :D yeah it hate this too. There were a lot of emotions in this episode. ...and there were a lot of signposts along the way for the story. The series is just so great.
Probes. The one "probe" we saw when they first entered the ringspace was more of a military recon drone. Not something you survey a planetary system with. Those kinds of probes are not off the shelf, they take months to years to build. Then months to send to the ringspace, then months to traverse through the other planetary systems. Remember at the time of the show the Sol system is pretty well settled and explored. They're not making NASA like exploration probes as we are today.
1:50 I'm not trying to excuse the taking of life but these belters would justify their actions because they believe the inners are coming to steal from them, just as they believe the inners have stolen from the belt for centuries. The belters have been out there mining resources and doing the hard work throughout history and it all gets shipped off to earth and mars and the belt sees none of the rewards. Like I said, it doesn't excuse killing but their anger against the inners isn't just because they are inners, it's because the inners have been the boot on their neck for as long as they can remember.
One of the things from the books that they changed that I don't really like is that in the books, Lucia's family was actually Katoa's family from Ganymede. In the TV series, they made them unrelated. I liked the continuity of the book version.
The Sojourner Situation. First Inaros pirates a colony ship parked near the ring by the blockade and steals its engine. Then a rogue ship bearing that engine is hurtling toward Earth, broadcasting distress messages. And we learn this episode that Inaros knows how to remote-detonate fusion drives, a trick he learned from Naomi back in the day. (I'm really starting to hate that guy.) If Avasarala has the ship destroyed, any proof it was an attack or that it's "civilian passengers" were just a ploy get blown to atoms with it. If she does not, the flying bomb gets close enough to kill countless people on Earth. For Crisjen It's a lose-lose situation. The same sort of situation gets played out in BSG, with the civilian liner Olympic Carrier, and in the film, Executive Decision, with a transatlantic jumbo jet occupied by terrorists, a bomb, and hundreds of hostages including a US Senator. You desperately want there to be a third option, but all too often, there isn't time enough to arrange one.
I am not sure did the belter's video reached earth on a wide broadcast. To transmit communication you need relays, the first relay will be the belter's ship in orbit the Barbapiccola, the 2nd relay is at the ilus ring gate with part of it in the Ring and part of it out of the Ring which I think is controlled by Earth. The third relay would be Medina station (Behemoth), by the belters. The 4th would be the Earth ring gate with would be half in and half out. At any time earth could intercept the belter's message and keep it a secret.
You may not recall in the first season episode as the Belters ran the blockade, we got a camera linger on Lucia and her family holding hands and voting to run through it. The Belters are broadcasting back to the Solar System, but nobody (including Murtry) is reporting anything back to Earth and Avasarala. Gao's "cheating" got three people off the list instead of one. It was a past UN Secretary of Education who helped her get in...you have to wonder about those strings she pulled. We were told that she didn't come from a major Gao said in that first scene we met her that they had already sent hundreds of probes and none had reported any Protomolecule problems, but all confirmation is that all of the 1300 are human-habitable. But all of Avasrala's arguments about moving slowly are proven the lie by the fact that she gave a mining charter for Ilus to an Earth corporation. There were four rogue Belter ships that got thorough the ring to planets. Only those who landed on Illus have reported back. We don't know what could have happened to the others. Perhaps those ships didn't have anyone who could adapt to the gravity. Or the ships had been terminally damaged in the shooting and they perished after getting through the gate. Or they were overcome by whatever native life had evolved on those planets after the Protomolecule "proto-formed" them. We don't know.
Gao's didn't get any extra people off the list. She just kept taking one person's slot and giving it to another. The mining charter for Ilus/New Terra doesn't undermine anything. They thought they had that planet cleared, so they granted a charter to someone. That's not the same thing as allowing everyone to rush to the first planet they can land on and hoping for the best.
@@IcyTorment The alternates Gao pulled up behind her would not have gotten _anything._ They would have been "sorry, thanks for playing. Try again in next year." In the series (which is different from the book in this respect) it was already known that the Belters had proven the lithium on Ilus _before_ the charter was granted to RCE. The Belters had gotten to Ilus strictly by random chance, but the charter being given to RCE was because the Belters had already proven the lithium.
Politics is how countries evolve. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Its so sad that so many people, around the world, are simply removing themselves from politics because its removing your choice about the future for our kids, our countries, and our planet......and that leaves it to those that have the power, money, and influence to make the world in their own image.
I think something that The Expanse does really well, and so did Game of Thrones (except the last season, coughcough F You last season coughcough) is the petty squabbles between various factions while a much greater threat looms over all involved. You just want to scream "CUT THE BS AND DEAL WITH THE **REAL** PROBLEM THAT'S GOING TO KILL YOU **ALL**!!!" 😲
@@Riddler0603 Actually naked violence has solved a lot of prolonged human problems and conflicts in human history that would have only caused even more suffering. It's not an endorsement of violence as a form of resolution to conflict. Merely an acknowledgment of a basic fact.
@@Cbricklyne This is highly, _highly_ arguable and has been argued for centuries, even by those among the beneficiaries of violence. The resolutions violence have brought were rarely lasting and almost never equitable. Violence is a natural instrument and byproduct of the formation of civilization but civilization is not itself a natural phenomenon. Violence ENDS many _symptoms_ but rarely solves any _problems_ . For instance, violence may quell a popular revolution but it has never ended the discontentment which caused the revolution in the first place. Violence doesn't solve many things at all, but merely forstalls any meaningful resolution by forcing the debate to end. Ultimately, violence is only good for resolving violence. And I use "good" dubiously, here. When used to defend against aggression, violence becomes necessary but it is never good. And even when necessary, it can still sow the seeds for future violence. Of course, as we will come to see in later episodes, this debate continues to rage on. In truth, even I debate it within myself. I live in a constant dichotomy of thought. On one hand I believe "Violence begets violence." On the other hand I believe "Peace must prevail even if the wicked must die" (which I first read on a Magic: The Gathering card, of all places!). In conclusion ... well, I don't really have one aside from saying, the debate on violence has never ended.
JaM, a cliffhanger at the end of chapter is still a cliffhanger even if all you have to do is turn the page to continue the book. The term existed long before streaming media platforms were even a twinkle in Tim Berners-Lee's daddy's eye, and is simply a 19th Century rephrasing of a known literary technique. TLDR: People were "binging" stories centuries ago BECAUSE of cliffhangers.
The phrase that we keep hearing, that drives the conflict between Crisjen & Gao, is "another Eros." As in, another huge rock departing its orbit under its own power and hurtling toward Earth at fantastic speeds, utterly unstoppable. If certain factions of the OPA could figure out how it was done the first time, they'd do it in a heartbeat. But so far, thank God, only the Protomolecule knows how to pull off that particular feat. Crisjen fears that one or more of the systems Sol has been linked to by the Protomolecule rings may send another Eros to Earth. But those rings each represent another Eros already having piled into an inner planet somewhere, built a seed pod, then sent it to that system's outer reaches to grow a portal. All the Eroses have already finished their journeys. If we really want another Eros, we're just going to have to make it ourselves.
The sad thing is the OPA is almost a Mirrioimage of the IRA. It once seemed to be the only means to get some justice and at some point it might even was right and justified given how they get opressed and used. But at some point they found other ways than violence to make their point and get legitimation and even achieve settlements, but the old guard is so caught in their hate, revenge and single mindedness that they only see the way of fore and undermine the sucesses they already achieve or would be able to achieve with continue the peaceful way and just making anything worse for their own people. And so over time they become a similar dangerous foe for their people than the original opressor and loose the conection to their own people. Its just sad. As some wise man sometimes said evil only give birth to more evil and never can set things right.
Moreover, the OPA mirrors the creation of factions within the IRA, and internal power struggles between them. In truth, the IRA is only one relatively modern version of a sociological paradigm of antiestablishment movements which start in unity, radicalize, grow, fracture, and struggle against themselves. It is uniquely difficult to maintain any monolithic belief in any organization which enshrines freedom of thought and questioning of authority within its core purpose. This is why the old world was dominated by organizations or entities which emphasized collective thought and obedience. Organized religions and colonial empires dominated the old world because of this even they were not immune to fracturing. The IRA resemble the OPA most because they are the freshest (and most idealized) example of a grassroots organization of violent resistors to struggle against oppression from a more powerful entity (and they have a similar initialism). Yet, the same dynamic exists in South and Central America, the Middle East, and Asia. Not so much in Russia or USA, though, because in those countries, the State has "won". (I know very little about the current-day European landscape because it's all so confusing and filled with disinfo and political messaging from dozens of countries and movements. It's really hard to keep up!)
@@AngeloBarovierSD The ETA in Spain is still pretty active but aside of them there are not much old/classical 70s or older Organisations you hear alot from these days in Europe. It sounds like you studied the subject quite a bit. The part about antiauthorians having problems to uphold cohesion and a central command and support structures is pretty much what lead to the downfall of the RAF. They never got that you cant form an underground army without a command structure and that someone have to give oders and you cant just do a sit in and argue about them. Somewhat ironic that the tables somewhat turned. Todays goverments argue about how to deal with global terrorism while these terrorists use exactly that lack of direction and hasitation.
@@sirpurrsalot6588Interesting, I'll have to look them up. Thanks for the primer! Yeah, the push and pull of sociological organizations and their conflicting interrelationships has always been a fascination of mine. Studying history is just a path to discovering about human complexity. It's really no surprise that I fell under the sway of this show! That being said, whenever I'm pressed to provide an answer to this ongoing question of society, of order vs chaos and freedom vs civilization, 1. I can't and 2. I don't point them to any praised treatise or academic text or great philosopher. I point them here: ua-cam.com/video/djZkTnJnLR0/v-deo.html See, honestly, I think it's all a great tragic-comedy of civilization. And the only wisdom I claim to have found is in the power of knowing when to admit "I don't know" and the ability to laugh at it all. Because if I don't laugh at it all, I just might cry.
@@AngeloBarovierSD yeah human history can be quite a downer. or maybe not the history but the inability of humans to learn from it and rather make the same failures again round about all 100 years or so. Good for you if you can still laugh about all that stuff its probably the wisest way to deal with it. I for my part took the minimization of interaction or interference aproach.
If an alien 'thing opened a number of portals which lead to all these new solar systems and basically an incredible opportunity to go and explore and potentially start over, like some of these people want, why would anyone not allow that? Avasarala was terribly wrong here and she basically highlighted the worst in the human race, which is that everything belongs to us; everything was created for us because we're so special and we can do whatever we want with it and then get in front of those portals and act like they created it and not allow passage. Maybe someone wants to die trying to find that life they never had. Why stop them?
In her defense, on two occasions humanity messed with alien tech with disastrous effects. In one instance (Eros), it almost wiped out Earth. In the other (activation of The Ring), it almost killed all humanity. Her caution is rational, even if it's overzealous. She's not trying to _own_ the universe. She's trying to _keep humanity alive_ in it. Alas, the velvet glove covering her iron fist has grown thin with the wear and tear of her old and new position.
@@AngeloBarovierSD/videos/videos The princess is playing the hero from her big palace. She can't begin to imagine the terrible lives lived by those who are risking everything for just a shot at something better. They have no idea what lies beyond those rings yet they are willing to die trying. Avasarala doesn't know anything about something like that. She's scared for them and tries to help by preventing them from going through an unknown door and basically force them to keep living the same terrible life they're so desperately trying to get away from. I'd be okay not leaving if she offered me a nice place for me and my family to live happily ever after, although I'm pretty sure she couldn't provide that. Yes, the Eros incident almost destroyed humanity, yet it didn't happen. Then the activation of the ring almost did that too, understandably, considering our vicious nature and the desire to do harm. But that didn't happen either. But all this talk is for nothing. She wouldn't be able to stop everyone from going through. And at some point, the majority of those left in our solar system would want to go through just to see what the unknown looks like. What would she do? Kill everyone just to prevent something that might not happen? In the end, she's the hero no one needs, and she'll realize that in the end.
@@dragos-lucian Mm, I don't really share that point of view as it overestimates what Avasarala is trying to accomplish (she's not barring exploration and eventual colonization, she's advocating a longer and more cautious timeline) AND it follows the logic of drunk drivers. "The worst outcome didn't happen the last two times I drove while drunk so it's totally safe for me to do it a third time." OR "I didn't die the last time I ran through a minefield so what's the harm in running through the next one?" I cannot condone that line of thinking.
If shooting and killing terrorists is what you have to do, to the point countries have invaded each other to do it and seen as justified by everyone. Then why is shooting and killing terrorists murder? murder and killing is not the same. Every time murtry has acted, it has been against a credible threat.
Did Holden threaten to take Amos in to face trial for murdering that doctor? Or Miller, for murdering that other doctor? I guess it's all about perspective. On another subject, just putting it out there, I never liked Naomi. And I can't for the life of me understand why anybody does. She is just so whiny about everything.
"She really wanted to help." Well, that's a pretty loose definition of helping. She wanted to participate in a non-lethal terrorist attack instead of a lethal one, but that's not exactly helping.
I don't know if you guys remember, but when the Sojourner got captured by Marco Inaros, all of it's crew and passengers were spaced, we can see their bodies floating in space near the ring in this second episode, which means that the supposed passengers who were on it when it was charging towards earth might be a fake broadcast.
That conversation between Naomi and Lucia is one of my favorite moments that isn't in the books. Just fantastic performances from both of them, and the dialogue is so powerful.
The piercing glare in Chrisjen's eyes when they try to tell her to play the "caring family matriarch"... you KNEW she was going to go full blast.
Not sure if they've explained it well enough on screen, but here's what I understand from the book - probes sent through the ring gates actually found 1300 confirmed habitable systems, but the Mars-Earth-OPA alliance agreed not to allow colonization yet until risks could be assessed. A company on Earth applied for exploration and colonization rights (Murtry's company) but the refugees from Ganymede broke the blockade and squatted on the planet first.
This is a good explanation of where we are at right now. All 1300 planets are "habitable" as in humans can sort of live on the surface to some extent. A possibility is that the ring makers needed the same type of planet as humans. Could be the reason why the original probe was sent to the Sol system. Because Earth was a good candidate for them. Humans are trying to figure out how to explore these ring systems based on a Earth/Mars/OPA agreement which is taking a lot of time. Only a few probs have been sent and not much data is back yet.
@@runningray Seems very likely, yes! The makers of the ring probably were looking for a certain type of planet.
How many years ago was the protomolecule sent to Earth, a billion? I wonder from how far away and at what speed, and what Earth looked like at the time it was sent...
Actually its only 1300 systems. They are not all habitable (at least 1 system doesn't even have planets...just a very large.......). They are sending probes to explore every system, 65 systems had been fully scanned at the start of season 4, but its very questionable if these probes can actually land on a planet, check all biology and water, and confirm the planets are "safe" for humans. Remember, Illus was the first planet given a corporate charter but the slugs and eye fungus could not have been identified by probes.
Colonization efforts happen after scientific teams are sent to each of the scanned systems. The RCE was the first corporation to be granted the first contract.
Amy Kat I’m surprised, sad, and happy we didn’t see Prax and his daughter May there
I love this channel, Kat gets as emotional as me while watching tv shows, I’m glad I’m not alone lol
xD your reactions when your homecountry`s capital showed up ^^
We were NOT expecting that!
@@KatSonny any recognizable features?
rodent nolastname
Yes! I saw the marble church, Børsen and Christiansborg. But I also read that the foreground is actually what CPH looks like from Langelinie, but all the skyscrapers and the floodgates in the background are completely fiction. We do not have any sky scrapers here, and probably never will.
Even if 2/3 of the country disappears under water because of climate change.
It just goes to show how deep inside we all love our country and secretly crave and rejoice any attention directed at it. 👍😊
@@KatSonny With their Earth having I believe 30 billion people, surely your country would have skyscrapers. That and dealing with a disappearing coastline.
You two are definitely among my favorite reactors. I love how you guys just let go and allow yourselves to be immersed in the stories you're watching as opposed to worrying about how you may come across on camera.
One thing that should be said is that this episode is a very emotional one, and that they handled the difficult subject matter (in my opinion) very well. Lucia and Naomi have both been through a lot and again I am impressed with how the characters and their emotions were handled. I'm here with you with those tears this episode. Thank you for being kind enough to share your personal reactions to this show with us!
The only places on Earth we have seen on this show are New York, Montana and Tårnby ;) hehe
You two are some of my favorite reactors to watch! Glad you were able to see your city (or a future version of it) on screen!
Avasarala isn't against colonizing the new systems, she's against rushing it. She was in the situation room when Eros was in a collision course with Earth so she knows that the protomolocule CAN be a real, civilization ending threat. She is advocating for a slow, methodical, safer approach. Let the science people be science people and maybe start colonizing in 10-30 years when we have a clearer picture of what's going on.
Gao just wants to exploit the situation and rush it out not caring at all about the big picture.
I'm on Avasarala's on this one. She is thinking long-term while Gao has that "short term gain who cares about the repercussions" that so many politicians have these days and that has brought us to the brink of ecological collapse. People like Gao are the ones that made Copenhagen and Denmark a goddamn archipelago because who cares about the ecological crisis we need to raise the gross domestic product.
Sure, Earth system isn't the best, but at least it's safe. Rushing out into space to live among the ruins of an alien civilization that can wipe you out in the blink of an eye? That's just reckless. Imo.
Thank you for that. I tried to explain it to a lot of people and I am frightened that so many of them don't see the problem with Gao. I have to admit that you explained it way better than I can do.
Yes. Look at the current situation being dealt with now. Imagine if it was a free-for-all.
Most of those 1373 systems have at least one habitable planet with breathable atmosphere (seems PM builders needed similar air composition to ours).
Ilus just happened to be discovered first by MCRN probe and it's signal was hijacked by belters waiting close to the Ring (book version), in the show we simply had a bit more ships going to other systems, but they turned out to be less lucky than Barbapiccola.
The PM builders themselves didn't need atmospheres like we do, but the protomolecule itself operates by hijacking indigenous self-replicators (meaning: life) in order to build the Rings. So, the Ring gates can only connect to planetary systems that have (or, in a few cases, had) life-sustaining planets.
The OPA thugs as Felcia's husband put it are using the legitimate outrage of the mirrors falling over Ganymede and the subsequent breakdown of the artificial ecosystem to continue the cycle of violence. Great reaction and review as ever guys.
The UN have been moving slowly, probing systems and the OPA on Medina Station have been constructing communications relays through each ring (not all in place yet). They know there are 1300 worlds capable of supporting life but as Kat says, with the Belters forcing their hand, Ilus has become the focal point. I believe RCE already had the exploration charter and in the books, Elvi decries the fact that with the Belters in place and exploiting the lithium deposits that means they can no longer do controlled exploration and science because there has already been a huge amount of cross-contamination.
Since I see no one else in the comments mentioned it, I should note that there is a little but of extra layering to Lucia and what she did in the books that's not shown in the show, but which I felt could have added much more.
In the books Lucia and her husband happen to be the parents of Kotoa, and they had trusted him to be medically treated by Strickland just like Mei was by Prax - only to have him be turned intoa protomolecule hybrid/weapon and then have to be killed horribly
So Lucia's distrust of Inners isn't necessarily only limited to Economic prospects of losing a means of making a living on Illus, but it (at least in the books ) was also driven by what happened to her son and extends to also mistrusting Inner Scientists like Strickland (which the Edward Israel crew essentially are) and believing (justifiably so) that they're coming to either kill Belters or use/abuse them.
So in the books there's some context to why she did what she did beyond just mistrust and revenge, that's not shown on the show.
I'm not really sure why they decided to remove that context. But I imagine they didn't want to complicate her storyline more than it already is.
LOL your reaction to Copanhagen-Tarby. XD
love the choice of screen shot, ive been waiting since December 13th!!! :-)
"Shit is really starting to hit the fan!"
Oh, you have no idea.
4:47 "Please stay and die. it fine." Ha ha ha you got me. LOL.
Violence is admittedly pretty good at solving violence.
That's why the rocinante is a gunship
Violence only puts an end to violence if you completely wipe out your enemy, otherwise your 'beaten' enemy is just going to get back up and attack you again, but with more hatred. In an honourable world a beaten enemy would shake your hand but in reality they more often than not just return with a knife, that's why those who don't want to be looking over their shoulder for the rest of their life use diplomacy instead.
Violence is actually very good at solving a lot of things. Remember that war is, and has been, the best way to boost a countries economics. Empires were built for a reason.......and it wasn't to explore.
@@jrich749 Empires also fall, all of them, and it usually involves a former adversary.
@@jrich749 Are ... are we just going to ignore all the instances or war destroying or draining a country's economy? Or, y'know, destroying the country itself? Is this where we are in the War Is Good rhetoric?
@@krashd And yet Germans, Japanese, etc. still exist and show no sign of ongoing violence against the allies. There are lots and lots of examples of successful violence that didn't involve genocide. For that matter, what country has a legal system that isn't based on violence and the threat of violence? Governments exist to perform organized violence.
Loved Alex and his plight with Lucia. Naomi’s speech was SO powerful I feel so sorry for Holden. Yes, not a fan of DickFace, either. Love you reactions.
Little bit of lore, in the books they allude to the fact that they do "nothing" about climate change until 2150.
At that time, theres a large global conflict and when it ends they decide turn the UN in to a republic overseeing all countries. Since 2010 , the world population has tripled and the seas rose by about 25 meters. It's a stark picture of the future, not very probable imo but definitely possible.
So afterwards the UN creates a bunch of strict rules about reproduction, jobs, resources and all that. That's why a bunch of people leave for Mars. Years later, living on Mars and the Moon creates more innovation in fields like terraforming, sustainable living, transportation, energy, space flight... So they eventually manage the climate and set their sights on the belt and the outer planets for new resources. And now I guess Illus is just caught up in this neverending expans-ion process lol.
For seas to rise by 25 meters we would have to be hit with a moon-sized comet.
@@krashd Actually, if every piece of frozen water, on earth, melted it would raise sea level by about 65 meters.....so 25 meters is actually very possible: www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/05/09/heres-what-earth-would-look-like-if-all-the-ice-melted/#2ebc9fdec495
Remember, the book writers pulled a lot of data from scientific resources. They are not just making up random science facts.
@@jrich749 It would take millennia to get anywhere near that and the Expanse is set in the 2100's.
@@krashd Again, you're incorrect. The Expanse takes place near the end of the 23rd century.
Idk if it’s 1300 habitable planets or just systems, but odds are good, plus belters that want to can space mine and live the merchant class life 😎
It's 1300 star systems (or Solar Systems. Actually it's 1373 in the book) each with at least one habitable planet.
It's possible to imagine some star systems with more than one habitable planet orbiting the Sun (like our own Solar system once was before Mars lost it's Magnetic field and then its atmosphere hundreds of millions of years ago when its core stopped spinning).
But yeah the gate systems opened up ring gates to 1,300 (or 1,373) stars with orbiting planets with at least a habitable planet (or more) among them.
Cbricklyne thank you I didn’t know that, I’ve listened to the audiobook books but you miss a lot of stuff. If that’s the case there are more than enough to expand on, I know the show needs the tension but I would just let the belters go, then separate in case this blue goo thing goes awry
About probing the 1300 new systems, without the Belter communications relays through ring gates (of which they've installed 100+ some already?) a probe would take probably more than one year to be built, launched, travel to reach habitable zone planets, survey, and return to the ring space to transmit data to be analysed. Even with the Belter communications relays, the probes would probably still take many months to do the same.
"told u, a fukng cliffhanger" :D :D yeah it hate this too.
There were a lot of emotions in this episode. ...and there were a lot of signposts along the way for the story.
The series is just so great.
Probes. The one "probe" we saw when they first entered the ringspace was more of a military recon drone. Not something you survey a planetary system with. Those kinds of probes are not off the shelf, they take months to years to build. Then months to send to the ringspace, then months to traverse through the other planetary systems.
Remember at the time of the show the Sol system is pretty well settled and explored. They're not making NASA like exploration probes as we are today.
1:50 I'm not trying to excuse the taking of life but these belters would justify their actions because they believe the inners are coming to steal from them, just as they believe the inners have stolen from the belt for centuries. The belters have been out there mining resources and doing the hard work throughout history and it all gets shipped off to earth and mars and the belt sees none of the rewards. Like I said, it doesn't excuse killing but their anger against the inners isn't just because they are inners, it's because the inners have been the boot on their neck for as long as they can remember.
But of course they killed the leash to Murtrys attack dog. Its entirely possible things don't go quite the same violent way without the initial act.
As always, great reaction. This season has too many cliffhangers, made it really difficult to take a break ;)
One of the things from the books that they changed that I don't really like is that in the books, Lucia's family was actually Katoa's family from Ganymede. In the TV series, they made them unrelated. I liked the continuity of the book version.
The Sojourner Situation. First Inaros pirates a colony ship parked near the ring by the blockade and steals its engine. Then a rogue ship bearing that engine is hurtling toward Earth, broadcasting distress messages. And we learn this episode that Inaros knows how to remote-detonate fusion drives, a trick he learned from Naomi back in the day. (I'm really starting to hate that guy.)
If Avasarala has the ship destroyed, any proof it was an attack or that it's "civilian passengers" were just a ploy get blown to atoms with it. If she does not, the flying bomb gets close enough to kill countless people on Earth. For Crisjen It's a lose-lose situation. The same sort of situation gets played out in BSG, with the civilian liner Olympic Carrier, and in the film, Executive Decision, with a transatlantic jumbo jet occupied by terrorists, a bomb, and hundreds of hostages including a US Senator. You desperately want there to be a third option, but all too often, there isn't time enough to arrange one.
I am not sure did the belter's video reached earth on a wide broadcast. To transmit communication you need relays, the first relay will be the belter's ship in orbit the Barbapiccola, the 2nd relay is at the ilus ring gate with part of it in the Ring and part of it out of the Ring which I think is controlled by Earth. The third relay would be Medina station (Behemoth), by the belters. The 4th would be the Earth ring gate with would be half in and half out. At any time earth could intercept the belter's message and keep it a secret.
First time watching this channel, I thought you guys were native speakers until you started talking about Denmark
1373+ habitable systems Sonny. @Kat&Sonny. With almost all of them having either 1 to 3 planets that are habitable. ;p .
Lmao is that Denmark in the background
Haven't watched it yet but I see what you did there with the thumbnail.
Daily reminder that Murtry did nothing wrong... until the 3:30 mark of this video :D
IMO, Murtry is a bloodthirsty mercenary in a corporate uniform.
Tom Vonders I’d say extrajudicial murders are wrong
You may not recall in the first season episode as the Belters ran the blockade, we got a camera linger on Lucia and her family holding hands and voting to run through it.
The Belters are broadcasting back to the Solar System, but nobody (including Murtry) is reporting anything back to Earth and Avasarala.
Gao's "cheating" got three people off the list instead of one. It was a past UN Secretary of Education who helped her get in...you have to wonder about those strings she pulled. We were told that she didn't come from a major
Gao said in that first scene we met her that they had already sent hundreds of probes and none had reported any Protomolecule problems, but all confirmation is that all of the 1300 are human-habitable. But all of Avasrala's arguments about moving slowly are proven the lie by the fact that she gave a mining charter for Ilus to an Earth corporation.
There were four rogue Belter ships that got thorough the ring to planets. Only those who landed on Illus have reported back. We don't know what could have happened to the others. Perhaps those ships didn't have anyone who could adapt to the gravity. Or the ships had been terminally damaged in the shooting and they perished after getting through the gate. Or they were overcome by whatever native life had evolved on those planets after the Protomolecule "proto-formed" them. We don't know.
Gao's didn't get any extra people off the list. She just kept taking one person's slot and giving it to another.
The mining charter for Ilus/New Terra doesn't undermine anything. They thought they had that planet cleared, so they granted a charter to someone. That's not the same thing as allowing everyone to rush to the first planet they can land on and hoping for the best.
@@IcyTorment The alternates Gao pulled up behind her would not have gotten _anything._ They would have been "sorry, thanks for playing. Try again in next year."
In the series (which is different from the book in this respect) it was already known that the Belters had proven the lithium on Ilus _before_ the charter was granted to RCE. The Belters had gotten to Ilus strictly by random chance, but the charter being given to RCE was because the Belters had already proven the lithium.
Politics is how countries evolve. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Its so sad that so many people, around the world, are simply removing themselves from politics because its removing your choice about the future for our kids, our countries, and our planet......and that leaves it to those that have the power, money, and influence to make the world in their own image.
Don't get me wrong. I am very very VERY vocal about politics off screen. And that's why I don't want to talk about it..
It's fairly obvious really.
I think something that The Expanse does really well, and so did Game of Thrones (except the last season, coughcough F You last season coughcough) is the petty squabbles between various factions while a much greater threat looms over all involved.
You just want to scream "CUT THE BS AND DEAL WITH THE **REAL** PROBLEM THAT'S GOING TO KILL YOU **ALL**!!!" 😲
Sonny: "Wait, that was Denmark"....lol...We all know global warming isn't a real thing.
Excuse me while I go trade my car in for a boat.
"Violence never solves anything." I think you would find a history book to be pretty shocking.
Violence solves many things unfortunately.
Nope, it only causes more problems and more hate.
@@Riddler0603
Actually naked violence has solved a lot of prolonged human problems and conflicts in human history that would have only caused even more suffering.
It's not an endorsement of violence as a form of resolution to conflict. Merely an acknowledgment of a basic fact.
@@Cbricklyne This is highly, _highly_ arguable and has been argued for centuries, even by those among the beneficiaries of violence. The resolutions violence have brought were rarely lasting and almost never equitable. Violence is a natural instrument and byproduct of the formation of civilization but civilization is not itself a natural phenomenon.
Violence ENDS many _symptoms_ but rarely solves any _problems_ . For instance, violence may quell a popular revolution but it has never ended the discontentment which caused the revolution in the first place.
Violence doesn't solve many things at all, but merely forstalls any meaningful resolution by forcing the debate to end.
Ultimately, violence is only good for resolving violence. And I use "good" dubiously, here. When used to defend against aggression, violence becomes necessary but it is never good. And even when necessary, it can still sow the seeds for future violence.
Of course, as we will come to see in later episodes, this debate continues to rage on. In truth, even I debate it within myself.
I live in a constant dichotomy of thought. On one hand I believe "Violence begets violence." On the other hand I believe "Peace must prevail even if the wicked must die" (which I first read on a Magic: The Gathering card, of all places!).
In conclusion ... well, I don't really have one aside from saying, the debate on violence has never ended.
40:50 =D
its not really cliffhanger, when all episodes are available at once :D
When you can't just sit and binge (because reactions, life, neighbours etc.), it surely is a cliffhanger 😉
JaM, a cliffhanger at the end of chapter is still a cliffhanger even if all you have to do is turn the page to continue the book.
The term existed long before streaming media platforms were even a twinkle in Tim Berners-Lee's daddy's eye, and is simply a 19th Century rephrasing of a known literary technique.
TLDR: People were "binging" stories centuries ago BECAUSE of cliffhangers.
I can't watch Kat crying, watch funny stuff boys, please 😂
The phrase that we keep hearing, that drives the conflict between Crisjen & Gao, is "another Eros." As in, another huge rock departing its orbit under its own power and hurtling toward Earth at fantastic speeds, utterly unstoppable. If certain factions of the OPA could figure out how it was done the first time, they'd do it in a heartbeat. But so far, thank God, only the Protomolecule knows how to pull off that particular feat.
Crisjen fears that one or more of the systems Sol has been linked to by the Protomolecule rings may send another Eros to Earth. But those rings each represent another Eros already having piled into an inner planet somewhere, built a seed pod, then sent it to that system's outer reaches to grow a portal. All the Eroses have already finished their journeys. If we really want another Eros, we're just going to have to make it ourselves.
There are 1300 habitable systems.
They are not all habitable.
@@jrich749 According to the series there are. The books may be different.
Watch the hunting of the hill house
We will at some point
Kat
Very beautiful min 0:01
:)
I was just buffering
Yeah, that's a tough one, no matter what language you speak. Sojourner. Say that three times fast.
Kat doesn't like politics, YET the entire show is pretty much all political Earth, Mars, New Terra.
it's Ilus, you filthy inners
@@operatorlink LOL!
The sad thing is the OPA is almost a Mirrioimage of the IRA. It once seemed to be the only means to get some justice and at some point it might even was right and justified given how they get opressed and used. But at some point they found other ways than violence to make their point and get legitimation and even achieve settlements, but the old guard is so caught in their hate, revenge and single mindedness that they only see the way of fore and undermine the sucesses they already achieve or would be able to achieve with continue the peaceful way and just making anything worse for their own people. And so over time they become a similar dangerous foe for their people than the original opressor and loose the conection to their own people. Its just sad. As some wise man sometimes said evil only give birth to more evil and never can set things right.
Moreover, the OPA mirrors the creation of factions within the IRA, and internal power struggles between them.
In truth, the IRA is only one relatively modern version of a sociological paradigm of antiestablishment movements which start in unity, radicalize, grow, fracture, and struggle against themselves.
It is uniquely difficult to maintain any monolithic belief in any organization which enshrines freedom of thought and questioning of authority within its core purpose. This is why the old world was dominated by organizations or entities which emphasized collective thought and obedience. Organized religions and colonial empires dominated the old world because of this even they were not immune to fracturing.
The IRA resemble the OPA most because they are the freshest (and most idealized) example of a grassroots organization of violent resistors to struggle against oppression from a more powerful entity (and they have a similar initialism).
Yet, the same dynamic exists in South and Central America, the Middle East, and Asia. Not so much in Russia or USA, though, because in those countries, the State has "won".
(I know very little about the current-day European landscape because it's all so confusing and filled with disinfo and political messaging from dozens of countries and movements. It's really hard to keep up!)
@@AngeloBarovierSD The ETA in Spain is still pretty active but aside of them there are not much old/classical 70s or older Organisations you hear alot from these days in Europe. It sounds like you studied the subject quite a bit. The part about antiauthorians having problems to uphold cohesion and a central command and support structures is pretty much what lead to the downfall of the RAF. They never got that you cant form an underground army without a command structure and that someone have to give oders and you cant just do a sit in and argue about them. Somewhat ironic that the tables somewhat turned. Todays goverments argue about how to deal with global terrorism while these terrorists use exactly that lack of direction and hasitation.
@@sirpurrsalot6588Interesting, I'll have to look them up. Thanks for the primer!
Yeah, the push and pull of sociological organizations and their conflicting interrelationships has always been a fascination of mine. Studying history is just a path to discovering about human complexity. It's really no surprise that I fell under the sway of this show!
That being said, whenever I'm pressed to provide an answer to this ongoing question of society, of order vs chaos and freedom vs civilization, 1. I can't and 2. I don't point them to any praised treatise or academic text or great philosopher. I point them here:
ua-cam.com/video/djZkTnJnLR0/v-deo.html
See, honestly, I think it's all a great tragic-comedy of civilization. And the only wisdom I claim to have found is in the power of knowing when to admit "I don't know" and the ability to laugh at it all.
Because if I don't laugh at it all, I just might cry.
@@AngeloBarovierSD yeah human history can be quite a downer. or maybe not the history but the inability of humans to learn from it and rather make the same failures again round about all 100 years or so. Good for you if you can still laugh about all that stuff its probably the wisest way to deal with it. I for my part took the minimization of interaction or interference aproach.
@@sirpurrsalot6588 You could also call it the Naomi Nagata on the Canterbury approach. ;)
Murtry did nothing wrong.
If an alien 'thing opened a number of portals which lead to all these new solar systems and basically an incredible opportunity to go and explore and potentially start over, like some of these people want, why would anyone not allow that? Avasarala was terribly wrong here and she basically highlighted the worst in the human race, which is that everything belongs to us; everything was created for us because we're so special and we can do whatever we want with it and then get in front of those portals and act like they created it and not allow passage. Maybe someone wants to die trying to find that life they never had. Why stop them?
In her defense, on two occasions humanity messed with alien tech with disastrous effects.
In one instance (Eros), it almost wiped out Earth. In the other (activation of The Ring), it almost killed all humanity.
Her caution is rational, even if it's overzealous. She's not trying to _own_ the universe. She's trying to _keep humanity alive_ in it. Alas, the velvet glove covering her iron fist has grown thin with the wear and tear of her old and new position.
@@AngeloBarovierSD/videos/videos The princess is playing the hero from her big palace. She can't begin to imagine the terrible lives lived by those who are risking everything for just a shot at something better. They have no idea what lies beyond those rings yet they are willing to die trying. Avasarala doesn't know anything about something like that. She's scared for them and tries to help by preventing them from going through an unknown door and basically force them to keep living the same terrible life they're so desperately trying to get away from. I'd be okay not leaving if she offered me a nice place for me and my family to live happily ever after, although I'm pretty sure she couldn't provide that.
Yes, the Eros incident almost destroyed humanity, yet it didn't happen. Then the activation of the ring almost did that too, understandably, considering our vicious nature and the desire to do harm. But that didn't happen either.
But all this talk is for nothing. She wouldn't be able to stop everyone from going through. And at some point, the majority of those left in our solar system would want to go through just to see what the unknown looks like. What would she do? Kill everyone just to prevent something that might not happen?
In the end, she's the hero no one needs, and she'll realize that in the end.
@@dragos-lucian Mm, I don't really share that point of view as it overestimates what Avasarala is trying to accomplish (she's not barring exploration and eventual colonization, she's advocating a longer and more cautious timeline) AND it follows the logic of drunk drivers.
"The worst outcome didn't happen the last two times I drove while drunk so it's totally safe for me to do it a third time." OR "I didn't die the last time I ran through a minefield so what's the harm in running through the next one?"
I cannot condone that line of thinking.
If shooting and killing terrorists is what you have to do, to the point countries have invaded each other to do it and seen as justified by everyone. Then why is shooting and killing terrorists murder? murder and killing is not the same. Every time murtry has acted, it has been against a credible threat.
Did Holden threaten to take Amos in to face trial for murdering that doctor? Or Miller, for murdering that other doctor? I guess it's all about perspective. On another subject, just putting it out there, I never liked Naomi. And I can't for the life of me understand why anybody does. She is just so whiny about everything.
"She really wanted to help." Well, that's a pretty loose definition of helping. She wanted to participate in a non-lethal terrorist attack instead of a lethal one, but that's not exactly helping.