Act III felt like an alternate ending more than a continuation. I was honestly satisfied with the way Act II wrapped up and thought of Act III as a bonus. It has some big flaws, but I absolutely loved this game overall.
Act 3 is a bit disjointed, and I think that's where it feeling like an alternate ending rather than natural progression of the story comes into play. It seems rushed in some ways, and there's very little in the way of "a natural path" to follow through the third act. Also I think the lack of a final dungeon to traverse before fighting Calasmos is also a contributor to this feeling. It makes him feel more like a hidden super boss, rather than the true final boss of the game.
the issue with time-travelling Luminary is that he is a silent protagonist(yeah) but the kid version of himself, is quite talkative...and we don't have the excuse "that he has a (physical or psychological) trauma that induced some sort of mutism" on top of that (this one is for those who didn't play the game or forgot about this specific part), it's not like Luminary suddenly "wakes up"(bc of the time-travel) next to the nucleus of Yggdrasil. He has all the time in the world because he wakes up outside Arboria(city before Yggdrasil and birthplace of Veronica and Serena) and the group has the whole time to climb the tree, camp close to the "sanctuary that summons the magical staircase to the top of the tree" and spend an entire night just chilling...MEANING that Luminary has plenty of time to tell everything to the group.
Dragon quest v did the same thing but even weirder. You don’t talk as a kid but your adult self does. Later in the game when you grow up you still don’t talk but then you go back in time to meet your younger self and guess what? He talks.
The best explanation I can think of is there's a loading screen that says the Luminary's silent act is just that, an act. I think it was for Cole's loading screen, but I could be wrong. Edit: the only other excuse I can think of for him not saying anything is maybe he was just worried about altering events prematurely? It is a trope with time travel or even multiverse theory is that even small changes can have large consequences. It’s not the best answer in the world, it’s just my headcanon so far from official.
from what i remember the luminary actually didnt seem to retain his full memories at first either, only having the ocational hunch or glimps of memory like how he suddenly realized someone was about to attack him just befor jaspers ambush.
@@thorbcrafter997 where it's stated that he won't have memories of his previous timeline? Nowhere You're looking for excuses but there aren't any, aside the idiocy of the writers
@@derokdeathaxe6984 i'm going more by implication then spelled out explaination here but like hero seemed genuinly quite confused right after the rewind to me, plus why else would he be once again reaching for the sword of light, only to then have a sudden flashback of last time and then directly act acordingly?
I have to agree, I loved Act 2 and all of the character development and was so disappointed when all of that development disappeared. Especially with Serena’s arc with Veronica’s death. It was nice to get Veronica back but going back in time made it feel like all those hours put into the game were for nothing
Serena's arc in act 2 REDEEMED her character big time for me, she became a staple of my party when she cut her hair and became a Sage. Act 2 Serena got her act together and learned how to be independent without her sister and learn to take action for herself. Even her voice changes a little to become more brave in how she spoke it was such an inviting change. Then Act 3 and all that beautiful development just gone.
Act 3 really let the wind out of my sails. I was super invested in the story and characters up to that point, until Act 3 turned out to redact all the great character growth of Act 2 and be an exposition dump of the greatest cockblock in Erdrea that history never knew. It doesn't help Act 3 puts a band-aid on things by shoehorning the emotional beats of Act 2 without any of the payoffs.
I agree, Act 3 felt VERY strange. Almost unfinished. It felt like an alternative branch but without ANY storyline. Like seriously, the characters become completely devoid of personality or dialogue throughout the entire thing! They act like their souls have been removed or something. It's kind of like extra content almost, like something that was meant to be there just so you can get a bunch of extra goodies & powers, but no story exists at all. If they had actually added story beats to this part, it could have been amazing, but no. Some stuff that happened didn't make sense either. The whole thing felt rushed & perhaps it was.
Act 1 & 2 were so epic. I knew that there were 3 acts before starting the game. However, the ending of Act 1 caught me by surprise. I wasn't expecting that we would ultimately lose to Mordegon. Act 2 is what really makes the game special. The whole thing about rebuilding your party, their own personal arcs (my two favourite ones were Hendrick and Serena - who both got ruined in the Act 3). Finally, Veronica dying and so many other people made the final fight against Mordegon even more special. Calasmos is just there, and he never really did anything, which makes him such a boring final villain. Also, Act 3 adds nothing to the story, you just do the things that you did in the first two acts, but with much worse storytelling. Act 1 & 2 are 10/10, and Act 3 is 2/10
YESSS!!!!! Finally someone talks about the freakin mermaid being alive when she shouldn't be. This was one of the most baffling and confusing things I have experienced playing DQ XI
One of the things that genuinely bug me about DQXI is how in act 3 there is barely any party talk. Especially when you're out of a city. It irks me how it's all about Calasmos and not the location you visit - or even if it was something else, just different from Calasmos. Like if we got a better look into the lives of the party members, that would've been really interesting! Act 3 was the perfect opportunity to have different party talk dialogue that hadn't been said before and they just threw that opportunity away to keep reminding you of Calasmos - even after you defeat him. I wish we got to know the characters a bit more in that way & sense, also wasn't a fan of how there was no post game & that Calasmos just always remained there in general.
When it comes to Veronica, it's even worse when you consider that the actual adult model works perfectly fine. There's video on it with a mod that you can play as adult Veronica (using Serena) and it's basically flawless. No awkward clipping or costume clipping and combat (and the actions committed) are perfectly fine, heavily suggesting that at the very least, the devs had worked on an adult Veronica build but for some reason, never finished it. A real shame too.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the dragon being there. I think they left it there on purpose. After all, it's right bellow the dungeon, if someone tries to escape, they're gonna have to face the dragon
Hendrik's pet dragon, Pookie! Jokes (and design excuses) aside, since Mordegon is a master of shadow magic, it's not unthinkable that said magic could cover illusion magic as well (look at Hargon, it's a key plot point); illusion magic could both keep the dragon docile AND prevent sounds or tremors from escaping the area.
It does not matter if the soldiers knew that their was a dragon or not since they could not have killed it except maybe Hendrick and the bridge in the sewer collapse and the luminary gets swept away and when you wake up their is a big waterfall behind you so the soldiers would not find it the same way as the luminary did. However their are platforms made of wood near the dragons lair also why would they disturb the dragon since it was so far under ground.
I totally agree with the point about going back in time. Yes Veronica is back but it totally invalidates her sacrifice and like you said all the character archs , the "saving" of the planet and the rebuilding and starting a new all great points to good story telling (i mean this is why drama is a sad and laughing face) gone, instead we get a re-telling of the story with a complete happy ending everyone lives, the world is never destroyed.. the caravan of joy gone, sylvandos redemption with his father is much better told on act 2. the village with the sun that turns into a dragon and the mother gets eaten by the son, all these great tragedies gone.. instead we get the disney version. Plus I felt like going back invalidated all the great frendships the luminary built. but they tried to fix it by saying that everyone involved "sorta" remembered .. horrible. About Veronica staying a child. yeah that was dissapointing .specially if the luminary choses to marry her. he is going to have to wait a few years unless he does not feel bad screwing an adult trapped on a childs body.. great list i agreed on all of them
There is a theme of sacrifice going back in time to chapter 3. You give up your own world to save another time for a greater good of course you can't have the cake and eat it. I think it was a pretty strong element.
@@Ageleszly yeah but in the end did he really save the world? We have to possibilities here: 1:a pararel universe was created. hence he just abandoned his friends in the "real" universe to join a happy one where everyone lives. 2:the pararel universe dissolves. effectively killing everyone in that universe except for the luminary. everyone else in that other dimension is effectively vaporized for a happier version of themselves. Either way I hate when they pull a whole "heh heh that never happened!" like the ending for twilight, that first story was perfect. with a good ending a good redeeming ark , it gave strenght to the luminary and his cause. instead we have a story line where everyone mostly lives. the village is not destroyed.. veronica is still alive..
Some of these bad things are a stretch, some additional ones can be found in the definitive addition - 1. The priest can't just switch between 2d and 3d at anytime and to do it you must go back to the last chapter. 2. The 2d mode feels a bit dated because there are no animated battle sprites which just feels lazy
One of the loading screens in DQ11 explains why there's a Dragon under that castle. The Dragon and other monsters are there because those sewers have been neglected for years. The guards don't even know there's a Dragon down there.
Veronica's design as a small child was probably because they could sell more of it with a balance of the three party heroines, a mature sexy one, a girl about the same age as you and a cute little one. They need to distinguish Veronica from Serena as much as possible. And doesn't get her adult form back for the same reason you assume. Well, she's damn cute so I don't really care... In the 3DS version, Cetacea actually CAN land at other points too, you can't be too specific about the spots, but she can drop you off at each area or island. About Act 3, Horii has confirmed that the story is not completely cancelled and everyone does remember their experiences deep inside. You can find some references to it like in Hendrik's additional story with Jasper or when you choose Serena as your partner.
I never knew about the act 3 thing, thank you for sharing that!!! That's actually really interesting to think about... especially if the party members view it as something like deja vu. That could've been used in a lot of interesting ways... Especially if the memories of the "past" slowly started progressing as the "deja vu" carried on. Shame they didn't include that, would've made for some really interesting party talk. I'll definitely have to go back & view Serena's marriage option dialogue too.
This is why I copied my file to slot 2 and went back in time in slot 2 and left my original slot 1 file alone, because I was so conflicted with just time erasing all these people just to save one Loli cursed girl.
you actually save countless lives by preventing yggdrasil to die. It sucks to revert their characters developement but the party themselves are willling to make the sacrifice.
Act III actually made a lot of sense to me personally. The game definitely plays around with the idea of having different timelines. When Hero traveled back in time to save Veronica and prevent the destruction of the world tree, that created an alternate timeline where all the events of act II obviously never happened mainly because the world tree was not destroyed. While I really loved everything that happened in Act II (possibly my favourite part of the story), most of those events wouldn't have made any sense in the new timeline due to the major plot twist. In the end of the story, we also get to see Serenica doing the same thing. She entered an alternate timeline from the Tower of Lost Time, just so she could go back and see Erdwin again. What I'm saying is that, just because Hero traveled to a different timeline, doesn't mean that the previous timeline (from Act II) doesn't exist anymore. My understanding of the story is that, whenever someone "travels back in time", they just enter another timeline/reality.
While most of it was probably just poor planning on the writers' part, I do kind of like the character regression and plotholes in Act 3. Choosing to go back in time is supposed to be a heavy decision, because you know everything in the past hundred hours of the game will be undone. Veronica dying was obviously a tragedy, but her actions and sacrifice led to the rest of the cast growing and changing. If you want Veronica back, you have to give up that change and growth - equivalent exchange and all that. It's a moral quandary: do you prevent Veronica's death, or allow everyone else to become better people? As for the plotholes, my feelings are a little more mixed. Michelle specifically is definitely just the writers wanting to make a happy ending for everyone, regardless of whether it made sense, but it does also help sell the fact that this isn't your timeline. You abandoned your original timeline for this one; it's almost identical, sure, but not quite the same. Is all this just me doing the work the writers didn't want to? Probably. Still more fun to think about it this way.
The way u explained it was the reason ur party members didn’t want the Luminary to go because everything he and they went to would all be forgotten in time and and your “this isn’t your timeline” thing it makes a lot more sense but one thing isn’t their an option where you lie to Michel and she stays on the island and lives?
#1- totally agree with you #2- yeah that really was annoying that the whale couldn't go anywhere without worrying #3- this is why the silent protagonist trope needs to either get better or just stop entirely #4- maybe Mordigan ordered them to stick to the sewers #5- Honestly I feel like Veronica should've stayed gone just so Serena had kept her reason for wanting to get stronger
As far as your 3rd point, I'm probably in the minority here but I actually prefer silent protagonists. There's a few reasons for this. One, I began my love of RPGs in the 80s, with the original "Dragon Warrior" so I experienced naught but silent protagonists until Final Fantasy X in 2000. Voice acting adds to the length of a game, because you can read dialogue faster than they speak it, so that's one reason. Another is that quite often I dislike the voice actor for the main character, and if I'm going to have to listen to you talking for a 60+ hour adventure, that will get old real fast. (Tidus and the aforementioned Final Fantasy X come to mind, although I do still love that game and that character) And finally, in the case of games like KOTOR or Dragon Age Origins, where you have multiple options to choose from as your response, I always enjoyed having to kinda "sound out" the options because something can be a completely innocent statement with no intended malice, unless you change your tone of voice. So it was always fun to kinda say the options to myself and try to figure out which one suited what sort of response I wanted to make. In a LOT of JRPGs, you really don't have meaningful choices in dialogue, as many conversations simply won't let you decline to help/take up the quest/get the cat out of the tree. You're stuck in a conversation loop until you say "Yes, I'll do the thing you want" so in JRPGs especially it tends to make little difference if your character can talk or not. That said, there's certainly ways to improve the system to get it to where it makes more sense. But I for one would be quite disappointed if they removed silent protagonists altogether.
@@jedirayden I mean more like the moments where the protag can say something to PREVENT a terrible occurrence to happen if they opened their damn mouth, take Fire Emblem Three Houses our main character could've saved Jeralt from being backstabbed by Kronya if they would have said, "SHE'S GOT A KNIFE FATHER" boom Jeralt lives. But NO they watch in disbelief until Sothis has to use time rewind to take us back a few minutes to try and save his ass but still fail cause we get cock blocked by Thalmus the leader of those who slither in the dark.
One of the dumb things is Jade keeping the re-vamp ability. She was used by Booga. Why would you want to keep something that gives you nothing but bad memories? There is a reason she is my least favorite character in the game. I disliked her story arc. All the others changed. She didn’t change, or she barely changed.
she kept the power cause she had more important things to do plus she isn't a weak flower that felt vulnerable she's a strong girl that sacrificed herself to save other people
@@hyperdark06 Right, she had to go from being a princess living a luxury to wandering the world with Rab blaming herself for the protagonist’s death. I think the Re-Vamp thing is just another testament to her willpower.
I figured he lost his memories and had flashbacks, but the timekeeper says word for word that you will keep your memories . So my guess is that he lost them initially and then slowly regained them overtime like we see in the flashbacks. The only problem is that this isnt made clear at all, and a perfect example why DQ12 should have a voiced MC
You probably won’t see this. But I found your videos after I became a huge fan of dragon quest and then I started liking your channel because it’s like the only dragon quest channel. I’ve beaten XI, and own I, II, IIII, IV, V, VIII, IX, and both builders games. I also agree with your points, except Veronica. Veronica’s backstory is developed with Serena when she dies, that kind of develops her backstory.
A few things: 1 - Veronica is not the only one without a resolution arc added to the S version. She's just the only one that had no resolution in the main original storyline (though arguably this is true for Serena as well in Act 3, given her Act 2 resolution is undone as she is still independent of Veronica's soul in Act 3). Serena and Veronica were done dirty. Though I get the impression they planned for a lot more with S (especially the often alluded to hints at Jasper's redemption and joining as a new party member in multiple Japanese marketing bits in magazines). Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue was there. Team size? Though the general new content is sorely lacking. Where's the weapons and armour? They added a few extra Costume pieces, but the majority of new gear for the PS4 version, were from the 3DS version's Tickington. 2 - Cetacea is only an issue in the PS4 version, but I think this has to do with the horse + other travel methods, and that you can warp to camp sites. So what's the point in landing anywhere? Though they could have added it in, and should have...not like it would have taken away from the shiny portals, just keep those in to highlight the new flying-only areas, and allow normal land-anywhere. At least you can in the 3DS version, so that means the 2D in S. This was just bad design, and it would have been very simple to connect the two maps together. Hell, they could do it by GENERAL area. So you land anywhere near a town, you land at the town. You land in the east portion of a map, or nearby it, you land always in the same specific east portion of that map. 3 - You should replay that section, as it was made clear that the Hero would return without his memories intact, but they might jolt at the right moment. Meaning it's a huge gamble, as he might not recall until the last possible second. This was not so clearly indicated, so I can see why so many miss it. It's also stated only once, when several other factors are mentioned multiple times. Much like Somnia's Queen, after Murdaw is defeated, giving the party a new direction to take for the story, but most people miss it because she never mentions it again, and it's never brought up in party chat. It's just one of those things you have to recall as you read it, and recall, and there's a lot of scenes between that critical moment with Carnelian and when you're told your memories will not be 100% intact. That memory thing was part of the dialogue that discusses the risks, and is the main reason to not go back, as it creates a natural risk where Mordegon can still win, when you've already fought so hard to beat him. In that new timeline, it would be a situation where the Luminary would be even more at risk than previously, or it creates a time loop where everything continuously repeats as the best possible worst outcome. The game also hints at this element with HOW the hero recalls certain events with flashbacks at the last moment ;). So this is more of a player oopsie, and not a game mistake or oversight ;). 4 - I don't agree on this point. What I do find bad is they did a poor job with the cavern system the Dragon lives in. It's clearly something where it's in the walls, coming from an older tunnel system that predates the castle. The PS4 version heavily alludes to the complexity of the caverns with two scenes. First the bridge collapse, the second being the water channel you wake up in has extended caves you can't get to. In the 3DS version this doesn't exist (so S 2D). They could have used this as an opening to some post-game sidequest where you have to get to the ancient caverns below Heliodor by getting past the Black Dragon. There is some ancient treasure there from a time prior to the founding of the current nation, maybe something from the era of Erdwin. You also have to remember that the Dragon is not directly accessible to the guards, or the jail area. It would have to burst through a rather large wall to get there. So I'm very sure the guards are aware. Why would the game need to reference this? There's no point in hanging around long enough for expose, and we don't generally talk to the prison guards, who would be aware. Just the city and palace guards. Though if they DID happen to mention it, you'd also want to know why there isn't more to the dragon. Which is why I feel it was a missed opportunity. Would would anyone argue there's a connection with Mordegon? How would that make sense? It's a castle built on top of a mountain. There are ancient water channels and an ancient waterfall, meaning there are natural cave systems down there. So by definition of that alone, it naturally makes sense creatures would be down there, and one of them just happens to be a Dragon, which also fits given Black Dragons only appear in cave systems in mountains in DQ11 (eg. the other versions we see in Shangri La). You don't need any other vision than that. Though again, it ties back to the lack of fun in utilizing it, when we have similar things in DQ9, where the post-game quest lines opened up dungeons under some of the older castles, from earlier periods, prior to the current castles being built. So there was already precedent to expand on it. Probably too many other elements related to the physics engine. Dragon come out...how? He couldn't get to the two through the final section of wall. It was just too large. Though perhaps they did send in soldiers, and realized it was a fools game. Why bother a dragon that is generally asleep, uninterested in them, is resting rather deep inside the cavern system with a small hole leading to the jail section...which btw was probably created by a prisoner or the guards trying to figure out what was down there. Probably the guards as they built a method to climb UP to where the Dragon was initially, with the only opening being that small channel that looks dug out with pick axes, and just enough to get one person through. Then upon encountering the Dragon they clearly realized the foolishness of attempting that route, and escaped. Or maybe they never awoke the dragon and just went back. Why pick a fight with something that isn't a real threat until you make it alert to your presence? One that isn't likely to break through the walls to where the jail is, because Dragons probably don't dig, but just find large caverns...though you never know, but it isn't like there's anything in any mythos anywhere with dragons as natural diggers, just takers of existing caves like Bears/Lions/Wolves. 5 - I see where you're coming from, but I strongly disagree. The two timelines merged. So much like the Luminary getting random deja vu moments, so would the characters. Though in the case of Serena there's a huge loss in her development, which isn't fixed at all. While Rab, Hendrick, Sylvando, and even Erik get theirs. Nothing for Veronica, which is odd given Veronica is Horii's favourite character, but perhaps that's why; no desire to change her. I don't feel it's a waste, and frankly there's no way to undo while also having your cake in the sense of perfect memory retention for everyone. That's yet another reason WHY it's a choice. Though this is actually the least substantive reason for why one should or shouldn't take that plunge. It's a tradeoff. A sacrifice. Would be nice to have both, but you lose something in having everything. For that reason, I rather enjoyed the nature of the option. Plus it allows preventing countless thousands of deaths (alluded to more than shown...as there aren't exactly fewer townsfolk outside of Heliodor, though all regions indicate similar deaths and tragedies).
Too long a post, and I added a LOT, so here's the rest: Also, and this might help, again, the timelines MERGED. So the tree, and through it all the characters still have those memories, so in some respect they might encounter an event that triggers that memory down the line, or a deja vu moment like the Luminary did. We DO see events ALL over the world that combine Act 1 and Act 2 elements in Act 3. Octagonia is the best example of this that make sense (Michelle needs extra explanation since her death was pre-return if you told her the truth, though it fits if you lied...though maybe they couldn't reconcile two options so just opted for one outcome). You have the Arena suddenly turned to a casino. What gave them the idea? Clearly the "memory" of having done so in Act 2 was retained, leading to the actions. You have to play by DQ rules. SUBTLEY and nuance. Hints at how things work. Less expose and direct explanation for every minute detail. You have to put the pieces together. I think we're too used to the ease at which most games thread things together either directly like FF and KH, or indirectly but through spoken/written words that help create a more concrete connection like with Soulsborne. DQ tends to just do things and you fill in the blanks with what little is given, but there's always enough to read into meanings and intentions, what's actually going on, but it leaves an element of mystery and personal interpretation, even if there really isn't much room for that interpretation once all data is known...yet still allowing for it. It's just a DQ thing, so even the majority of fans just miss these details (even in the older games...it surprises me). ==== I don't recall what your first video over this said, but one thing that bothers me, and there are a number of them, is the climbing mechanic. Sure it's used outside of town, but the ONLY TOWNS that use it are the first two. THAT'S IT!!!!!! Why the heck aren't there other climbing elements added to other towns? Did it really take 500+ people that long to construct that? Seriously, the size of the team suggests they could have done so much more. It's a very barebones game for how many people worked on the PS4. The 3DS team is like 1/10th the size, and they created a lot more content, though again, climbing is solely regulated to Cobblestone and Heliodor. I rather liked that element, and find it tragic they never expanded it...even just a few spots here or there! Alas, no.
Every single one of these reasons given here I had thought of in the back of my mind too. When you first hear about going back in time to save Veronica, the game does tell forewarn you that the characters aren't gonna be how you knew them up until that point, if you decide to go back. I didn't want to at first. What's even more crazy is having to know that you aren't gonna be with fully developed characters at the very end of the game. After the final boss, it just feels so open ended. It didn't feel satisfied at all story wise
When I played the game and, in Act 3, I needed to agree with the party and go back in time, I actually didn't want to. It's like the characters were some strangers, because all the moments, fights would be gone, so I said no multiple times but I couldn't escape, and that made me extremelly sad at the time.
I mean technically the game ended you got the ending it's optional if you would want to change events so it's pretty much 2 endings you can listen to your teammates and simply leave and stay in the original timeline Eric even mentions when you say no that you don't want to go he says good let's get out of here I personally choose going back in time you get more content I think that's a better ending for the characters in the long run they can always make new better memories and there stronger than ever now with Veronica back
I remember my first time playing dq11 and I just had one burning thought in my head during the scene the luminary goes back in time. "WHY NOT SEND THEM ALL?!?!" I remember during the scene itself I thought that all the act 2 stuff was gonna be erased and we all know what happens. If they all went back, you can keep their progression and still have the same story. Hendrick got hit hard by it cos act 3 Hendrick is a completely different person. I'm not sure how you could then fix Serena having all of Veronica's abilities but I'd take anything. Still one of my favourite jrpgs ever though haha
I mean, the Timekeeper explicitly said only one person with the power of the Luminary can go back. That being said, having all of them go back would've been better, imagine them going back and Hendrik being the one to stop Jasper. Such a missed opportunity
"sleeping with his shoes still on" not sure anything can top this. 😄 I do agree with the character development being much worse in act 3. However If the developers were trying to go for a bittersweet ending I think it definitely worked, it was objectively the better choice in terms of the world/characters outside the main party to not allow mordegon to take control. I also think it ties in well with the title "Echoes of an Elusive age" the elusive age being act 2. That being said I think the game would've been better if it ended at the end of act 2.
I think having a dragon under a castle is a normal trope in fantasy. It’s often used as a way to keep intruders that try to sneak into the castle through the sewers out.
Well about Verónica, lets say just that the Game doesnt have to much budget due they didnt even made animations of getting on and off from different monster the hero can ride, only the horae and when a characters goes out the screen, the same things, they doesnt even made drawings showing us the resolution of some arcs like when kingdoms are saved, only saying something like "and the city was saved, everyoke is happ"
My first time going through this game, I genuinely loved the idea of the dragon under the castle because I thought it was going to come back as some kind of guardian that we had to defeat later on in a future return to the kingdom. Then in act 2, we return to the castle to banish the never ending night, and beat up a zombie…
Act 3 didn't invalidate the journey/development of the first 2 acts. You are are allowed to choose not to go to another timeline/dimension. In the view of the MC; you decide that the journey that you had could be better if you go back to save the world before it takes damage. It's putting aside your personal feelings to ascend to something beyond a normal level of heroics. To save a time that isn't yours. That choice was made with the knowledge that you are leaving behind everything that you know and has happened. That's what makes the choice hard and incredible. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your points on other things. Is it possible that the MC lost part of his memory when he went back in time? It would explain him not telling the party about what happened or not seeming too cautious around the false king. Based on the dialogue of the mermaid and Veronica; this isn't strictly a new past, but a separate timeline where characters have deja vu over what happened in another time (or rather where routes can vary for the case of the mermaid since you can make a choice that causes her to live). It's convoluted, yes, but it makes more sense to me.
I recall that the game clearly stated it was an alternate timeline and that the timeline from Act 2 is still going without you. I'm pretty sure it mentioned that there would be side effects too (I also thought the MC had a fuzzy memory for that first bit). It's odd, but it seemed to make as much sense as time/timeline travel ever does. Other than that, I thought there was a pretty obvious theme of sacrifice - that the game was asking the player if they wanted to sacrifice their own personal happiness (bonds with their party acquired through the struggles in Act 2) for the sake for everyone else's happiness. The feeling of loss seems completely intentional, not a mistake that the developers didn't consider. I wouldn't call any of it a waste of time, and for some reason people don't say the same thing about Nier: Automata when it asks you to delete your save file (that game actually got tons of praise by asking the player to make a personal sacrifice, so maybe DQ11 should have been more direct about it?)
That’s an interesting way to look at the time travel. I never even really considered that. I honestly hesitated to go through with it. I even initially went with “no, I’m not doing this.” You’ve given me something to think about. Thanks for this.
Yeah exactly, that was actually the strong point of chapter 3 to me, that the game is set back was an intended tragic component and of course if we choosed differently in an alternate reality we might never turn out the same way. It's a give and take, like giving you back Veronica results in Serena never getting through her character arc. I don't think it's worthless, it's just different.
Dude as someone who went from absolutely hating to loving Hendrik by the time he first joined my party, he really got the short end of the stick as far as time travel is concerned (Serena is a close pick too for me). Even with the Definitive Edition's postgame content. He's my easily my favorite party member and the depth of his dynamic with the Luminary got sullied from a storytelling standpoint if you ask me. Also, weird side question: can someone explain the DQXI continuity to me? I was under the impression that the maingame and postgame timelines were a sort of paradox going off Hendrik's postgame story in the definitive edition of the game (plus you have some Michelle dialogue referencing her death in Act I depending on your choices that also influenced my interpretation). I am a newcomer to DQ, so maybe I'm just missing something veteran fans already know.
Ok so there are two “timelines” in Dragon Quest, both start with eleven. In one timeline, the luminary stops mordegon and kills calasmos, earning the title of Erdrick and leading to the Erdrick Trilogy of games 3, 2, 1, in that chronological order In the other timeline, the one where mordegon destroyed Calasmos’s body and was then killed by the luminary, the luminary went back in time and thus there was no one to become Erdrick there, but this leads to the Zenithian trilogy of 6, 4, 5, in that chronological order, later on
So a fun little detail about Michelle that kinda surprised me is if you tell her the truth about Kai, she will inevitably die. So seeing her kinda magically return in act 3 even though that particular choice was before act 2 is something i got a "...seriously?" vibe from.
I would agree that act 3 isn't really perfect. However, I personally think the statement ' "plot holes" like michelle being alive and resolutions being removed completely' is not really completely correct. The concept of time travel is often made on theory, so it's often confuse people. Time travel as a story element always makes things crazy as time travel and it's effects is literally based on how the writer's theory for time travel. I think in act 3, he is sent into another time line which is similar concept to the anime ' steins gate '. How do we know it's a different timeline? As u can see michelle is lied to that kai is still alive and that never happened in act 1. In different timelines different things happened. In ' steins gate ', people still remember events that happened in other timelines in a form of dream. And I think there are evidence that people remember some of the events in act 2 like veronica feeling strangely happy being with the others in the castle of heliodor, which hints that she remembers that she died in act 2. I am personally satisfied with act 3 but I do agree the time traveling thing does cause a lot more unexplained events and it does harm the story telling, since time travel is a pretty complex concept which would make a lot of inconsistencies. I am a believer that "the game should tell the story itself, and player's interpretation is unrequired", so which is why act 3 is not perfect. But I think with references to other time travel stories like 'steins gate ', act 3 gets a pass for me as many of the new stuff happened in act 3 can be explained in the theory of time line being different. The story well didn't tell us that they remember act 2 stuff but I personally wanna believe that they somehow remember some of it at least in a form of deja vu.
If you play any of the other dragon quest games it’s clear that there is different timelines and 11 comes and wraps them all together with the time travel split, act 2 being the timeline where there is no hero bloodline or no sword of light since he breaks the sword of light in that timeline, aka dq8 doesn’t have a sword of light or a bloodline hero, and would also explain why in the new game with Erik he seems to go to a dragon world, which looks like a prehistoric dragovian sanctuary. Also if you play the dragon quest builder games it seems to take place in that timeline as well since that’s where Erdrick (Erdwin) lost and in builders is a world that got taken over after the villain won. Also the sword of light is there, the original one, so it’s before 11, then after hero helps Erdwin win in his time and helps serenica get back to her time is where dq3 then the original 1 and 2 take place since they won in those games. So 11 is a sequel prequel essentially, and connects all the games if you pay attention. I can go on and on and explain how each game connects but I’ll write a whole essay on here if I do, but you get my point.
I hated Act 3 so much. Act 2 was such a masterpiece that nearly every decision that Act 3 made basically undid all the character development and made the Luminary look like an idiot. The only thing that Act 3 did right was bring Veronica back, but using time travel was a poor choice when they could just done something resurrection magic and made that part of the storyline and still had the parts with Calasmos.
Oh my God finally someone pointing out the flaws in this game the main thing that got me was your first video on this because I went through hell to get married and only to realize wow this wasn't worth it
For #'s 1 & 2, mods that *everyone* should look up: 1 - NPC Appearance Swap (allows you to play as Adult Veronica) 2- Hidden Areas (allows you to fast travel to numerous extra areas in the game)
For me, I’m fine with the Veronica & Black Dragon Thing. I’m a bit irked out on Cetacea and the character development on Act 3. So much had to be sacrificed just for a happy ending which makes it bittersweet and something you should really be serious and determined about. It’s far from good but I like what they’re trying if it’s just a bit more thought through. What ruins it is how as you pointed out, the Luminary acts after the whole incident.
In defence of Act 3...I feel like that's the cost of time travel. Many popular media like movies and comic books which tackled time travelling concepts have the same issue.
In my opinion, Act 2 wasn't a waste. This has more to do with how we look at time travel. How I see the time travel to work is that when the Luminary travels back in time, another timeline is created. So basically the Luminary "dies" in the Act 2 timeline when he goes back in time, but Act 2's progression, the other characters, and the timeline itself remains in tact.
its funny because on the 3DS version you can fly wherever you want, but they reduced your freedom for the ps4 versions. I suppose it would make extra work with deciding landable spots for the whole map? idk
I actually quit DQXI after experiencing Act 3, Act 2 was the more complete ending for me and Act 3 seemed like it was just pressed for time to be completed just to fight the main boss.
Michelle was the one thing I absolutely hated about Act 3. Super cop out (maybe. Idk), but they could’ve taken that chance to suddenly reveal that she had a twin sister who was far away and rushed back when she heard of her sister’s passing, and she was the one who ended up there, maybe becoming good friends with Kainoa and learning more about her sister’s tragic fate. Also, something that wasn’t brought up in either video revolves around the Sword of Light. In the main artwork for the game, in the opening cutscene, and even in Smash as a whole, the Sword has a scabbard on the Luminary’s back, but in the DQXI game itself, there’s no scabbard. It’s one of the few swords with none. If it was because the sword never had one, or in the case of the one forged from scratch they didn’t make one, why not just do what Zelda’s been doing for decades and just have it come out of nowhere?
I kinda hate how they turn down the oportunity to make veronica a character with a transformation command, a first for the franchise, and a bonus for new game plus or something, they were going to find the luminary anyways. Now she just feels weirdly inhuman, like Persona 5 Morgana or something
Zoom magic makes unnecessary to Cetacea lands in any place, but indeed, they forgot about that distant islands. The luminary knew that the king was possessed, but kept this as a secret to more easily unmask him. Sure, sleeping in the castle was a mistake, perhaps he tried to kept awake, but failed because he underestimated how tired he was. The guards knew about the dragon: it was kept there to guard the dungeon and prevent invasions. The time travel is more like a time rewind: the characters demonstrate that somehow in an unconscious level, they know about events in act 2. Veronica says suddenly that she is happy to be alive, but says that she does not know why she is having this sensation. They do not remember, but their souls remember. And this explains why things develop much more suddenly. But yeah, Michelle should not be alive, that indeed made absolutely no sense. Anyway, going back in time surely was a completely irrational irresponsible thing. The Luminary placed the entire world at risk again just to save a single person. And in my time rewind interpretation, this also means that all this was for entirely nothing because in the final ending, the Luminary let Serenica perform the same rewind, but back to thousands of years in the past, erasing all the story.
One of the personal dumb things of this game is you get caught by the guards during the dragon part of the game you mentioned. Once I got an attack that can harm dragons and that and I was a lvl 30 I was like “oh my god cool awesome I can beat up that dragon now! And not get caught by the guards!” But no just cause you reset the game with your new lvl you and Erik are just like “dragons dead…. Cool come on” then the guards get you.
While at the Yggdrasil Tree you can talk to Carnilian twice. The second dialogue is asking the protag why are you looking at him, like that. So the Hero doesnt forget. Also i believe there were rumors about a dragon under Hilodor. I think the kingdom was built over cave knowing this.
Honestly probably a hot take but I like that they reset even the character arcs with the time travel. So often time travel in media just ignores consequences of it and simply treats it as a plot device. And it also makes death sacrifices feel weightless. It keeps Veronica’s sacrifice meaningful while adding clear consequences for using time travel to fix everything. Though in a way it’s why I saw act 3 to be an alternate ending over a continuation. The split between the two being whether or not the luminary goes back in time. Act 2 being the main ending while act 3 is essentially is more of a what if senario then a continuation. Don’t get me wrong a lot of things about act 3 urk me especially with how stupid the luminary acts, but it still felt like my time wasn’t wasted from my perspective
I didn't have a problem at first with him not dealing with the king immediately because it would have been easy for Mordagon to either turn it against him and make the Luminary look like a monster, or let the king fall to the Luminarys attacks on purpose. What i do have a problem with was leaving the sword literally lying in the open and deciding to just go to sleep. Heck an easy way to fix it would have been to have the Protagonist be pretending to sleep to get the drop on Mordagon or have a quest be to have a Decoy fake sword made.(heck the original scene could work as an option for what happens if you didn't make any preparations to counter Mordagon.)
My personal theory on the Luminary in act three is that he’s biding his time so Mordegan can out himself in Carneilian’s own city so everyone can see for themselves, rather than just straight up attack him. That said, I think it’s a shame that there was no quest in Act 3 that allowed you to get your companions memories of Act 2 restored.
Honestly, I didn't dislike going back and losing progression. It was a different experience. What I didn't like was the characters getting level boost to the same as the MC, and getting back the skill trees. I wanted to train them again, I wanted to unlock the skill trees again, not having it handed to me. I actually really liked the backtracking because it was a different experience.
I think some of the issues with Act 3 couldve been very simply fixed by the protagonist bringing the entire party with him back in time. It makes the reunion with Veronica so much more satisfying, and makes sure the party you've worked with and loved gets a happy ending too
I played DQXI with my 9 yo daughter and she loved that Veronica was a tough kid consistently, and was thrilled that she stayed as a kid. You missed the mark here amazingly.
I missed veronica during the entire act 2, when I heard midway what happened it was heartbreaking. I have never been impacted as much by a character dying in any other game. However act 3 was a bit of an insult to act 2. As much as I liked Veronica, her purpose was fulfilled and everyone had grown BECAUSE of her death, not despite it. Erasing time just for her didn’t feel right. However, I wanted more dq, so I said yes. I believe act 3 is sort of a meta punishment for the player, where it asks of you; „is this really what you wanted?“ sort of like when at the end of undertale (spoilers) Sans asks you to not reset the game, even tho you want to experience the other routes. At the end your selfish desire for more game ends up costing you the game.
1. I could see the developers not wanting to grow up Veronica because it would be too expensive to make the character art. 2. I agree with the Whale. It is the worst airship ever. 3. I can understand why at first the Dark Spawn doesn't inform everyone about Carnelia. Dark Spawn is still in the delicate trusting state so if he goes and accuses the high king right away without proof then he may be thrown in jail by Carnelia and Hendrick. I don't understand why he completely drops his guard back at the castle or doesn't communicate to his party that Carnelia is bad.
I think the luminary first playing along with the king's actakes sense to me because what good is it gonna do? The king is still a powerful foe and just exposing him at this point would have put not only the hero's group but also yggdrasil in unecessary danger. He would have hendrick on his bad side again if he just went and attacked the king so just waiting it out and at least get veronica to safety first felt like the best option, at least to me
It's not that they didn't want to animate the adult model of Veronica, it's probably rigged like any other model considering she's in the magic burst animation. The thing is just that the developers wanted to stick with the little kid with a big mouth / wiser than she appears trope over giving her story actual resolution.
I think the luminary doesn't actually recall everything. He just gets little flashbacks, like the back attack as he reached for the sword in the world tree
When it comes to act 3 I always thought of when you get your levels back the memories of act 2 are also implemented into your party members, otherwise how else would they remember how to use those new skills? I somewhat agree with Serena tho but only for the gameplay part, it would be nice to see a cutscene of them acknowledging the memories because from my recollection don’t the party members know the luminary time traveled in act 3? Or is it just like “oh hey I’m back btw I have all of your shit”
I like the game, and Act III was a Good call for the Luminary. I think I have an explanation about Luminary's actions after he went back in time: after defeating Jasper and knowing that Carnelian was possesed by Mordegon, he began to merge with his present self and then, losing his memories (this kind of situation happened in the manga One Punch Man, sorry about the soft spoiler, friends). Also, i think that Luminary knew about Mordegon inside Carnelian but he doesn't have the proofs enough to unmask him until he trying to steal the Super Sword of Light.
A dragon being under the castle protects the castle from any invader trying to use those tunnels to get into the castle lol The same reason why alligators are in a mote around a castle.
i dont mind satacea at all and i liked how out of the way some of the islands were. it upped the difficulty because not only do you have to beat the bosses there but you had to survive with enough health and mana to get there in the first place
I think the real reason that veronica didn't get her resolution is because she dies. This ruins her entire character and hampers the gameplay. Ypu dont get a black mage for all of act 2. Aka usually one of the best points in time for a black mage. This combined with the only other offensive magic user is rab who i find to be much better in a support role. Veronica should have been saved during act 2, maybe revived or something. She got shafted hard.
Act 3 really killed my drive to finish the game. Everything just.... gone. Act 2 gave you a bittersweet ending that actually got to you and then its just thrown out the window. The luminary being the silent idiot upon regressing was also something that annoyed me a lot. Generally, why was he silent anyway? Feels so weird when characters are talking to you and the camera pans to the luminary only for him to stare soullessly ahead. I know it's 'tradition' but still, would have enjoyed the first 2 arcs more if he was voiced.
I prefer silent protags. As we've seen with many other RPGs, a terrible/annoyong voice can completely ruin a character, so I'd rather they just not do it so I can actually like them.
My favorite thing about the black dragon in act 1 is they don't explain it, and in Act 2 all you get from it is it being a regular normie enemy that you're probably able to take out easily.
as far as act 3 goes, i feel like everything you talked about was the entire point of it. you had to sacrifice A LOT to get veronica back. she sacrificed her life and you sacrificed some of your happiness not just as characters, but as a player
Act 3 itself was a bit of a rushed convenience at the end in terms of it's story. When i played it for the first time i was Genuinely conflicted and was tempted never to play the post game content because I WORKED for this happy bitter sweet ending. Sure Veronica is dead but from her death came SO MUCH. Seeing the world torn apart and then slowly rebuilding itself was a treat for me because i love those kinda stories. What irks me about act three though is it feels like there could have been a full act 3 in terms of story content but it felt more like a bullet point. All the events retold but in a quicker and less meaningful way. Sure we went back to prevent an apocalypse but we also miss out again on character development that is too precious. Kinda a sad thing to say but in trying to get a HAPPIER ending for all we end up abandoning one timeline for another only to create more problems in the wake.
the black dragon under the castle of heliodor is some kind of national Icon, because it's the source of the scales wich were used to make the black sword and the black shield of Heliodor, so it being under the castle in a place we saw it cant scape, although its not the best way to have a national insignia, is actually not that dangerous or dumb
I could be missremembering, but I'm pretty sure that the reason for the main char for some reason forgetting the bad guy is a bad guy when traveling back, is literally because he have forgotten. I'm 99% sure that it is explained that when traveling back, he will forget certain things. It is very dumb, but if I remember currectly, at least there is a reason. Also, another point I'm very sure you are incurrect about: Yes, when you travel back in time, all of the progression from act 2 is technically lost. But not really. Once again, I could be missremembering, but I'm once again 99% sure that the "act 2" will still be going on, they just wont have YOU there anymore. So when traveling back, you split the timeline, and there is now 2 timelines.
But he does remember that the King attacks Hendrick, so that point of him not remember is invalid. I love DQ 11, but the whole Act III is just a steaming pile of shit
@@dimitrijekulak3347 I don't remember that part. Why does him remembering some things but not all, one being the king attacking Hendrick, invalidate anything?
@@LoveToSpootch he saw him using the same attack that Jasper used. It should be pretty obvious to him that something was wrong. He clearly had enough evidence to know that the King was Mordegon. But he has to be a stupid silent protagonist for suspense. Even if he wasn't 100% (which I find hard to believe), he still leaves his sword unguarded next to his bed. Luminary is without a doubt the most stupid MC ever.
Going back in time to save Veronica was POST game. It was optional, the game even said it wouldn't be the same if you went back in time. You don't have to do it, if you preferred to leave the game's story as it was then you could have.
You didn't turn on dragon hard mode on. He was shy and couldn't speak up when the king was possessed. Our hero cowers in battle with the gods thinking how silly his enemy thinks of his haircut. Our hero has no people skills.
Japanese otaku needs their loli. Having an adult model wouldn't be "too much work" since they released 5 different versions of the game (a bunch of ports, a 16 bit AND 3ds version) and her sister uses the exact same model. Heck just pay a modder $50 to do it in a few days. They just want to have another character who's legal but looks like a child. Not all players want it of course but that niche has a very strong presence.
The worst thing that could happened to this game was act 3, the stupid time travel. As you said, it ruins everything. Death doesn't have a meaning anymore, like in dragon ball, they can resurrect every time. Verónica's sacrifice was epic and the most shocking point of the plot, and they ruined it. I think it wasn't necessary to being her back, the story ended so meaningful. In fact, I don't even play with her on my party xD and doing the last part of the game feels so empty and without a purpose.
speaking of the airship, the ship is the same way with only being able to dock in specific locations. like you said in the video in DQ8 you could land and dock anywhere why sailing and flying.
I came to DQ11 as someone who grew up playing DQ8. Absolutely love the game, struggled to hell and back to be Dhoulmagus and have many fond memories of the game. DQ11's Act 3 is something I really dislike. Serena is my - and I assume /many/ others - favorite character and the way she developed [and got short hair, yeet] was amazing. Unlocking Veronica's skill trees felt awesome and having ECHO CAST on Serena was a chef's kiss. Michelle being alive irritated me because the moment I went to the Strand to check for the chest to finish the Mini Medals, the moment I saw her sitting on the rock alive I was disappointed. I NEVER liked Veronica, still don't. She very much acts like an entitled brat and I would happily trade her for 1 Gold. The fact she had a moment of returning to her proper age pissed me off because I was hoping that would act as a development point and lead to her acting more mature, but of course that didn't happen. That would make her likable. I also HATED unlocking flying only for it to not lead to any useful travel. Godbird was so nice because it unlocked unique areas WORTH going to, such as Metal Slime Hill. I remember watching guides years ago for DQ8 and had my mind blown finding out about that area. Cetacea just... gets me to a pointless Waystation.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention all the repetitive "pep power" sidequests throughout the whole game. Felt like more than 70% of the games sidequests were tutorials for the pep power mechanic lol.
I say one of the other dumb thing is that you don't even get to keep the outfits because they give you all these really cool outfits that takes forever just to get and you can't even use them in ng+ so it's like what's the point in getting them then
Act III felt like an alternate ending more than a continuation. I was honestly satisfied with the way Act II wrapped up and thought of Act III as a bonus. It has some big flaws, but I absolutely loved this game overall.
In "S" I stopped there at Act Two.
Act 3 is a bit disjointed, and I think that's where it feeling like an alternate ending rather than natural progression of the story comes into play. It seems rushed in some ways, and there's very little in the way of "a natural path" to follow through the third act. Also I think the lack of a final dungeon to traverse before fighting Calasmos is also a contributor to this feeling. It makes him feel more like a hidden super boss, rather than the true final boss of the game.
That said, I love this game too much to stop at the end of the second act. And I'm kind of a sucker for gear, and all the best gear is in act 3, so...
@@jedirayden That makes perfect sense. I also had the excuse of having a TON of games on my back burner to play.
I love all 3 Acts though.
Act 3 is officially considered post game
the issue with time-travelling Luminary is that he is a silent protagonist(yeah) but the kid version of himself, is quite talkative...and we don't have the excuse "that he has a (physical or psychological) trauma that induced some sort of mutism" on top of that (this one is for those who didn't play the game or forgot about this specific part), it's not like Luminary suddenly "wakes up"(bc of the time-travel) next to the nucleus of Yggdrasil. He has all the time in the world because he wakes up outside Arboria(city before Yggdrasil and birthplace of Veronica and Serena) and the group has the whole time to climb the tree, camp close to the "sanctuary that summons the magical staircase to the top of the tree" and spend an entire night just chilling...MEANING that Luminary has plenty of time to tell everything to the group.
Dragon quest v did the same thing but even weirder. You don’t talk as a kid but your adult self does. Later in the game when you grow up you still don’t talk but then you go back in time to meet your younger self and guess what? He talks.
The best explanation I can think of is there's a loading screen that says the Luminary's silent act is just that, an act. I think it was for Cole's loading screen, but I could be wrong.
Edit: the only other excuse I can think of for him not saying anything is maybe he was just worried about altering events prematurely? It is a trope with time travel or even multiverse theory is that even small changes can have large consequences. It’s not the best answer in the world, it’s just my headcanon so far from official.
from what i remember the luminary actually didnt seem to retain his full memories at first either, only having the ocational hunch or glimps of memory like how he suddenly realized someone was about to attack him just befor jaspers ambush.
@@thorbcrafter997 where it's stated that he won't have memories of his previous timeline? Nowhere
You're looking for excuses but there aren't any, aside the idiocy of the writers
@@derokdeathaxe6984 i'm going more by implication then spelled out explaination here but like hero seemed genuinly quite confused right after the rewind to me, plus why else would he be once again reaching for the sword of light, only to then have a sudden flashback of last time and then directly act acordingly?
I have to agree, I loved Act 2 and all of the character development and was so disappointed when all of that development disappeared. Especially with Serena’s arc with Veronica’s death. It was nice to get Veronica back but going back in time made it feel like all those hours put into the game were for nothing
This was my main issue with the game
Serena's arc in act 2 REDEEMED her character big time for me, she became a staple of my party when she cut her hair and became a Sage. Act 2 Serena got her act together and learned how to be independent without her sister and learn to take action for herself. Even her voice changes a little to become more brave in how she spoke it was such an inviting change. Then Act 3 and all that beautiful development just gone.
Yeah hate when games or movies do this
Act 3 really let the wind out of my sails. I was super invested in the story and characters up to that point, until Act 3 turned out to redact all the great character growth of Act 2 and be an exposition dump of the greatest cockblock in Erdrea that history never knew. It doesn't help Act 3 puts a band-aid on things by shoehorning the emotional beats of Act 2 without any of the payoffs.
I would've given DQXI a 9/10 were it not for the postgame. Rise of the Lord of Shadows was just amazing.
i agree
I agree, Act 3 felt VERY strange. Almost unfinished. It felt like an alternative branch but without ANY storyline. Like seriously, the characters become completely devoid of personality or dialogue throughout the entire thing! They act like their souls have been removed or something.
It's kind of like extra content almost, like something that was meant to be there just so you can get a bunch of extra goodies & powers, but no story exists at all. If they had actually added story beats to this part, it could have been amazing, but no. Some stuff that happened didn't make sense either. The whole thing felt rushed & perhaps it was.
Act 1 & 2 were so epic. I knew that there were 3 acts before starting the game. However, the ending of Act 1 caught me by surprise. I wasn't expecting that we would ultimately lose to Mordegon. Act 2 is what really makes the game special. The whole thing about rebuilding your party, their own personal arcs (my two favourite ones were Hendrick and Serena - who both got ruined in the Act 3). Finally, Veronica dying and so many other people made the final fight against Mordegon even more special. Calasmos is just there, and he never really did anything, which makes him such a boring final villain. Also, Act 3 adds nothing to the story, you just do the things that you did in the first two acts, but with much worse storytelling. Act 1 & 2 are 10/10, and Act 3 is 2/10
YESSS!!!!! Finally someone talks about the freakin mermaid being alive when she shouldn't be. This was one of the most baffling and confusing things I have experienced playing DQ XI
There's literally an option to lie to her so she won't die
Wait what?@@frogglen6350
@@frogglen6350Yeah but what's the point of the choice when at the end it doesn't matter
One of the things that genuinely bug me about DQXI is how in act 3 there is barely any party talk. Especially when you're out of a city. It irks me how it's all about Calasmos and not the location you visit - or even if it was something else, just different from Calasmos.
Like if we got a better look into the lives of the party members, that would've been really interesting! Act 3 was the perfect opportunity to have different party talk dialogue that hadn't been said before and they just threw that opportunity away to keep reminding you of Calasmos - even after you defeat him.
I wish we got to know the characters a bit more in that way & sense, also wasn't a fan of how there was no post game & that Calasmos just always remained there in general.
When it comes to Veronica, it's even worse when you consider that the actual adult model works perfectly fine. There's video on it with a mod that you can play as adult Veronica (using Serena) and it's basically flawless. No awkward clipping or costume clipping and combat (and the actions committed) are perfectly fine, heavily suggesting that at the very least, the devs had worked on an adult Veronica build but for some reason, never finished it. A real shame too.
Yep. Look up "NPC Appearance Swap" for Definitive Edition. Or "NPC Costume Swap" if you play the OG version.
Ya im fking pissed. I dont want some little kid character in my rpg's.
There's some pedos among the dev, or maybe the publisher
My guess? The costumes. Has someone given adult Veronica adult sized versions of all her alternate outfits to see how they look like?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the dragon being there. I think they left it there on purpose. After all, it's right bellow the dungeon, if someone tries to escape, they're gonna have to face the dragon
He forgot to mention that Hendrik was the one that captured the dragon. That's the explanation
True, Hendrick put it there, without killing it for some reason
Hendrik's pet dragon, Pookie!
Jokes (and design excuses) aside, since Mordegon is a master of shadow magic, it's not unthinkable that said magic could cover illusion magic as well (look at Hargon, it's a key plot point); illusion magic could both keep the dragon docile AND prevent sounds or tremors from escaping the area.
It does not matter if the soldiers knew that their was a dragon or not since they could not have killed it except maybe Hendrick and the bridge in the sewer collapse and the luminary gets swept away and when you wake up their is a big waterfall behind you so the soldiers would not find it the same way as the luminary did. However their are platforms made of wood near the dragons lair also why would they disturb the dragon since it was so far under ground.
I totally agree with the point about going back in time. Yes Veronica is back but it totally invalidates her sacrifice and like you said all the character archs , the "saving" of the planet and the rebuilding and starting a new all great points to good story telling (i mean this is why drama is a sad and laughing face) gone, instead we get a re-telling of the story with a complete happy ending everyone lives, the world is never destroyed.. the caravan of joy gone, sylvandos redemption with his father is much better told on act 2. the village with the sun that turns into a dragon and the mother gets eaten by the son, all these great tragedies gone.. instead we get the disney version.
Plus I felt like going back invalidated all the great frendships the luminary built. but they tried to fix it by saying that everyone involved "sorta" remembered .. horrible.
About Veronica staying a child. yeah that was dissapointing .specially if the luminary choses to marry her. he is going to have to wait a few years unless he does not feel bad screwing an adult trapped on a childs body..
great list i agreed on all of them
There is a theme of sacrifice going back in time to chapter 3. You give up your own world to save another time for a greater good of course you can't have the cake and eat it. I think it was a pretty strong element.
@@Ageleszly yeah but in the end did he really save the world?
We have to possibilities here:
1:a pararel universe was created. hence he just abandoned his friends in the "real" universe to join a happy one where everyone lives.
2:the pararel universe dissolves. effectively killing everyone in that universe except for the luminary. everyone else in that other dimension is effectively vaporized for a happier version of themselves.
Either way I hate when they pull a whole "heh heh that never happened!" like the ending for twilight, that first story was perfect. with a good ending a good redeeming ark , it gave strenght to the luminary and his cause. instead we have a story line where everyone mostly lives. the village is not destroyed.. veronica is still alive..
@@ROrneli The game says that the 2 timelines merged. So yes, He saved the world.
Veronica's not getting her original age back permanently is a rather strange decision(Especially considering the Switch version).
Some of these bad things are a stretch, some additional ones can be found in the definitive addition - 1. The priest can't just switch between 2d and 3d at anytime and to do it you must go back to the last chapter.
2. The 2d mode feels a bit dated because there are no animated battle sprites which just feels lazy
One of the loading screens in DQ11 explains why there's a Dragon under that castle.
The Dragon and other monsters are there because those sewers have been neglected for years. The guards don't even know there's a Dragon down there.
Veronica's design as a small child was probably because they could sell more of it with a balance of the three party heroines, a mature sexy one, a girl about the same age as you and a cute little one. They need to distinguish Veronica from Serena as much as possible. And doesn't get her adult form back for the same reason you assume. Well, she's damn cute so I don't really care...
In the 3DS version, Cetacea actually CAN land at other points too, you can't be too specific about the spots, but she can drop you off at each area or island.
About Act 3, Horii has confirmed that the story is not completely cancelled and everyone does remember their experiences deep inside. You can find some references to it like in Hendrik's additional story with Jasper or when you choose Serena as your partner.
I never knew about the act 3 thing, thank you for sharing that!!! That's actually really interesting to think about... especially if the party members view it as something like deja vu. That could've been used in a lot of interesting ways... Especially if the memories of the "past" slowly started progressing as the "deja vu" carried on. Shame they didn't include that, would've made for some really interesting party talk.
I'll definitely have to go back & view Serena's marriage option dialogue too.
This is why I copied my file to slot 2 and went back in time in slot 2 and left my original slot 1 file alone, because I was so conflicted with just time erasing all these people just to save one Loli cursed girl.
Glad to know I wasn't the only one to do that.
you actually save countless lives by preventing yggdrasil to die.
It sucks to revert their characters developement but the party themselves are willling to make the sacrifice.
Yeah, I did the same thing here, for I pretty much didn’t have the heart to lose my progress with Act 2 having been concluded
Act III actually made a lot of sense to me personally. The game definitely plays around with the idea of having different timelines. When Hero traveled back in time to save Veronica and prevent the destruction of the world tree, that created an alternate timeline where all the events of act II obviously never happened mainly because the world tree was not destroyed. While I really loved everything that happened in Act II (possibly my favourite part of the story), most of those events wouldn't have made any sense in the new timeline due to the major plot twist.
In the end of the story, we also get to see Serenica doing the same thing. She entered an alternate timeline from the Tower of Lost Time, just so she could go back and see Erdwin again.
What I'm saying is that, just because Hero traveled to a different timeline, doesn't mean that the previous timeline (from Act II) doesn't exist anymore. My understanding of the story is that, whenever someone "travels back in time", they just enter another timeline/reality.
I think someone theorized that the Act 2 timeline eventually results in the Zenithian trilogy.
I was under the impression that the Luminary suffered from temporary memory loss when time traveling.
While most of it was probably just poor planning on the writers' part, I do kind of like the character regression and plotholes in Act 3. Choosing to go back in time is supposed to be a heavy decision, because you know everything in the past hundred hours of the game will be undone. Veronica dying was obviously a tragedy, but her actions and sacrifice led to the rest of the cast growing and changing. If you want Veronica back, you have to give up that change and growth - equivalent exchange and all that. It's a moral quandary: do you prevent Veronica's death, or allow everyone else to become better people?
As for the plotholes, my feelings are a little more mixed. Michelle specifically is definitely just the writers wanting to make a happy ending for everyone, regardless of whether it made sense, but it does also help sell the fact that this isn't your timeline. You abandoned your original timeline for this one; it's almost identical, sure, but not quite the same.
Is all this just me doing the work the writers didn't want to? Probably. Still more fun to think about it this way.
The way u explained it was the reason ur party members didn’t want the Luminary to go because everything he and they went to would all be forgotten in time and and your “this isn’t your timeline” thing it makes a lot more sense but one thing isn’t their an option where you lie to Michel and she stays on the island and lives?
#1- totally agree with you
#2- yeah that really was annoying that the whale couldn't go anywhere without worrying
#3- this is why the silent protagonist trope needs to either get better or just stop entirely
#4- maybe Mordigan ordered them to stick to the sewers
#5- Honestly I feel like Veronica should've stayed gone just so Serena had kept her reason for wanting to get stronger
As far as your 3rd point, I'm probably in the minority here but I actually prefer silent protagonists. There's a few reasons for this. One, I began my love of RPGs in the 80s, with the original "Dragon Warrior" so I experienced naught but silent protagonists until Final Fantasy X in 2000. Voice acting adds to the length of a game, because you can read dialogue faster than they speak it, so that's one reason. Another is that quite often I dislike the voice actor for the main character, and if I'm going to have to listen to you talking for a 60+ hour adventure, that will get old real fast. (Tidus and the aforementioned Final Fantasy X come to mind, although I do still love that game and that character) And finally, in the case of games like KOTOR or Dragon Age Origins, where you have multiple options to choose from as your response, I always enjoyed having to kinda "sound out" the options because something can be a completely innocent statement with no intended malice, unless you change your tone of voice. So it was always fun to kinda say the options to myself and try to figure out which one suited what sort of response I wanted to make. In a LOT of JRPGs, you really don't have meaningful choices in dialogue, as many conversations simply won't let you decline to help/take up the quest/get the cat out of the tree. You're stuck in a conversation loop until you say "Yes, I'll do the thing you want" so in JRPGs especially it tends to make little difference if your character can talk or not.
That said, there's certainly ways to improve the system to get it to where it makes more sense. But I for one would be quite disappointed if they removed silent protagonists altogether.
@@jedirayden I mean more like the moments where the protag can say something to PREVENT a terrible occurrence to happen if they opened their damn mouth, take Fire Emblem Three Houses our main character could've saved Jeralt from being backstabbed by Kronya if they would have said, "SHE'S GOT A KNIFE FATHER" boom Jeralt lives. But NO they watch in disbelief until Sothis has to use time rewind to take us back a few minutes to try and save his ass but still fail cause we get cock blocked by Thalmus the leader of those who slither in the dark.
@jedirayden I personally really don't think silent protagonists transition well to 3D. They made perfect sense in the OG games, but in 3D it's rough.
One of the dumb things is Jade keeping the re-vamp ability. She was used by Booga. Why would you want to keep something that gives you nothing but bad memories?
There is a reason she is my least favorite character in the game. I disliked her story arc. All the others changed. She didn’t change, or she barely changed.
she kept the power cause she had more important things to do plus she isn't a weak flower that felt vulnerable she's a strong girl that sacrificed herself to save other people
@@hyperdark06 Right, she had to go from being a princess living a luxury to wandering the world with Rab blaming herself for the protagonist’s death.
I think the Re-Vamp thing is just another testament to her willpower.
@@jj_grabes that and the fact she had to help her little brother defeat the lord of shadows mordegon to return the world back to where it was
@@hyperdark06 *Husband
@@HeroC14 husband only in one timeline where as the other two she's his big sister
I figured he lost his memories and had flashbacks, but the timekeeper says word for word that you will keep your memories .
So my guess is that he lost them initially and then slowly regained them overtime like we see in the flashbacks. The only problem is that this isnt made clear at all, and a perfect example why DQ12 should have a voiced MC
You probably won’t see this. But I found your videos after I became a huge fan of dragon quest and then I started liking your channel because it’s like the only dragon quest channel. I’ve beaten XI, and own I, II, IIII, IV, V, VIII, IX, and both builders games. I also agree with your points, except Veronica. Veronica’s backstory is developed with Serena when she dies, that kind of develops her backstory.
A few things:
1 - Veronica is not the only one without a resolution arc added to the S version. She's just the only one that had no resolution in the main original storyline (though arguably this is true for Serena as well in Act 3, given her Act 2 resolution is undone as she is still independent of Veronica's soul in Act 3). Serena and Veronica were done dirty. Though I get the impression they planned for a lot more with S (especially the often alluded to hints at Jasper's redemption and joining as a new party member in multiple Japanese marketing bits in magazines).
Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue was there. Team size? Though the general new content is sorely lacking. Where's the weapons and armour? They added a few extra Costume pieces, but the majority of new gear for the PS4 version, were from the 3DS version's Tickington.
2 - Cetacea is only an issue in the PS4 version, but I think this has to do with the horse + other travel methods, and that you can warp to camp sites. So what's the point in landing anywhere? Though they could have added it in, and should have...not like it would have taken away from the shiny portals, just keep those in to highlight the new flying-only areas, and allow normal land-anywhere. At least you can in the 3DS version, so that means the 2D in S. This was just bad design, and it would have been very simple to connect the two maps together. Hell, they could do it by GENERAL area. So you land anywhere near a town, you land at the town. You land in the east portion of a map, or nearby it, you land always in the same specific east portion of that map.
3 - You should replay that section, as it was made clear that the Hero would return without his memories intact, but they might jolt at the right moment. Meaning it's a huge gamble, as he might not recall until the last possible second. This was not so clearly indicated, so I can see why so many miss it. It's also stated only once, when several other factors are mentioned multiple times. Much like Somnia's Queen, after Murdaw is defeated, giving the party a new direction to take for the story, but most people miss it because she never mentions it again, and it's never brought up in party chat. It's just one of those things you have to recall as you read it, and recall, and there's a lot of scenes between that critical moment with Carnelian and when you're told your memories will not be 100% intact.
That memory thing was part of the dialogue that discusses the risks, and is the main reason to not go back, as it creates a natural risk where Mordegon can still win, when you've already fought so hard to beat him. In that new timeline, it would be a situation where the Luminary would be even more at risk than previously, or it creates a time loop where everything continuously repeats as the best possible worst outcome.
The game also hints at this element with HOW the hero recalls certain events with flashbacks at the last moment ;). So this is more of a player oopsie, and not a game mistake or oversight ;).
4 - I don't agree on this point. What I do find bad is they did a poor job with the cavern system the Dragon lives in. It's clearly something where it's in the walls, coming from an older tunnel system that predates the castle. The PS4 version heavily alludes to the complexity of the caverns with two scenes. First the bridge collapse, the second being the water channel you wake up in has extended caves you can't get to. In the 3DS version this doesn't exist (so S 2D). They could have used this as an opening to some post-game sidequest where you have to get to the ancient caverns below Heliodor by getting past the Black Dragon. There is some ancient treasure there from a time prior to the founding of the current nation, maybe something from the era of Erdwin.
You also have to remember that the Dragon is not directly accessible to the guards, or the jail area. It would have to burst through a rather large wall to get there. So I'm very sure the guards are aware. Why would the game need to reference this? There's no point in hanging around long enough for expose, and we don't generally talk to the prison guards, who would be aware. Just the city and palace guards.
Though if they DID happen to mention it, you'd also want to know why there isn't more to the dragon. Which is why I feel it was a missed opportunity. Would would anyone argue there's a connection with Mordegon? How would that make sense? It's a castle built on top of a mountain. There are ancient water channels and an ancient waterfall, meaning there are natural cave systems down there. So by definition of that alone, it naturally makes sense creatures would be down there, and one of them just happens to be a Dragon, which also fits given Black Dragons only appear in cave systems in mountains in DQ11 (eg. the other versions we see in Shangri La). You don't need any other vision than that. Though again, it ties back to the lack of fun in utilizing it, when we have similar things in DQ9, where the post-game quest lines opened up dungeons under some of the older castles, from earlier periods, prior to the current castles being built. So there was already precedent to expand on it. Probably too many other elements related to the physics engine.
Dragon come out...how? He couldn't get to the two through the final section of wall. It was just too large. Though perhaps they did send in soldiers, and realized it was a fools game. Why bother a dragon that is generally asleep, uninterested in them, is resting rather deep inside the cavern system with a small hole leading to the jail section...which btw was probably created by a prisoner or the guards trying to figure out what was down there. Probably the guards as they built a method to climb UP to where the Dragon was initially, with the only opening being that small channel that looks dug out with pick axes, and just enough to get one person through. Then upon encountering the Dragon they clearly realized the foolishness of attempting that route, and escaped. Or maybe they never awoke the dragon and just went back. Why pick a fight with something that isn't a real threat until you make it alert to your presence? One that isn't likely to break through the walls to where the jail is, because Dragons probably don't dig, but just find large caverns...though you never know, but it isn't like there's anything in any mythos anywhere with dragons as natural diggers, just takers of existing caves like Bears/Lions/Wolves.
5 - I see where you're coming from, but I strongly disagree. The two timelines merged. So much like the Luminary getting random deja vu moments, so would the characters. Though in the case of Serena there's a huge loss in her development, which isn't fixed at all. While Rab, Hendrick, Sylvando, and even Erik get theirs. Nothing for Veronica, which is odd given Veronica is Horii's favourite character, but perhaps that's why; no desire to change her.
I don't feel it's a waste, and frankly there's no way to undo while also having your cake in the sense of perfect memory retention for everyone. That's yet another reason WHY it's a choice. Though this is actually the least substantive reason for why one should or shouldn't take that plunge. It's a tradeoff. A sacrifice. Would be nice to have both, but you lose something in having everything. For that reason, I rather enjoyed the nature of the option. Plus it allows preventing countless thousands of deaths (alluded to more than shown...as there aren't exactly fewer townsfolk outside of Heliodor, though all regions indicate similar deaths and tragedies).
Too long a post, and I added a LOT, so here's the rest:
Also, and this might help, again, the timelines MERGED. So the tree, and through it all the characters still have those memories, so in some respect they might encounter an event that triggers that memory down the line, or a deja vu moment like the Luminary did. We DO see events ALL over the world that combine Act 1 and Act 2 elements in Act 3. Octagonia is the best example of this that make sense (Michelle needs extra explanation since her death was pre-return if you told her the truth, though it fits if you lied...though maybe they couldn't reconcile two options so just opted for one outcome). You have the Arena suddenly turned to a casino. What gave them the idea? Clearly the "memory" of having done so in Act 2 was retained, leading to the actions.
You have to play by DQ rules. SUBTLEY and nuance. Hints at how things work. Less expose and direct explanation for every minute detail. You have to put the pieces together. I think we're too used to the ease at which most games thread things together either directly like FF and KH, or indirectly but through spoken/written words that help create a more concrete connection like with Soulsborne. DQ tends to just do things and you fill in the blanks with what little is given, but there's always enough to read into meanings and intentions, what's actually going on, but it leaves an element of mystery and personal interpretation, even if there really isn't much room for that interpretation once all data is known...yet still allowing for it. It's just a DQ thing, so even the majority of fans just miss these details (even in the older games...it surprises me).
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I don't recall what your first video over this said, but one thing that bothers me, and there are a number of them, is the climbing mechanic. Sure it's used outside of town, but the ONLY TOWNS that use it are the first two. THAT'S IT!!!!!! Why the heck aren't there other climbing elements added to other towns? Did it really take 500+ people that long to construct that? Seriously, the size of the team suggests they could have done so much more. It's a very barebones game for how many people worked on the PS4. The 3DS team is like 1/10th the size, and they created a lot more content, though again, climbing is solely regulated to Cobblestone and Heliodor. I rather liked that element, and find it tragic they never expanded it...even just a few spots here or there! Alas, no.
Every single one of these reasons given here I had thought of in the back of my mind too. When you first hear about going back in time to save Veronica, the game does tell forewarn you that the characters aren't gonna be how you knew them up until that point, if you decide to go back. I didn't want to at first. What's even more crazy is having to know that you aren't gonna be with fully developed characters at the very end of the game. After the final boss, it just feels so open ended. It didn't feel satisfied at all story wise
When I played the game and, in Act 3, I needed to agree with the party and go back in time, I actually didn't want to. It's like the characters were some strangers, because all the moments, fights would be gone, so I said no multiple times but I couldn't escape, and that made me extremelly sad at the time.
I mean technically the game ended you got the ending it's optional if you would want to change events so it's pretty much 2 endings you can listen to your teammates and simply leave and stay in the original timeline Eric even mentions when you say no that you don't want to go he says good let's get out of here I personally choose going back in time you get more content I think that's a better ending for the characters in the long run they can always make new better memories and there stronger than ever now with Veronica back
I remember my first time playing dq11 and I just had one burning thought in my head during the scene the luminary goes back in time.
"WHY NOT SEND THEM ALL?!?!"
I remember during the scene itself I thought that all the act 2 stuff was gonna be erased and we all know what happens. If they all went back, you can keep their progression and still have the same story. Hendrick got hit hard by it cos act 3 Hendrick is a completely different person.
I'm not sure how you could then fix Serena having all of Veronica's abilities but I'd take anything.
Still one of my favourite jrpgs ever though haha
I mean, the Timekeeper explicitly said only one person with the power of the Luminary can go back. That being said, having all of them go back would've been better, imagine them going back and Hendrik being the one to stop Jasper. Such a missed opportunity
"sleeping with his shoes still on" not sure anything can top this. 😄
I do agree with the character development being much worse in act 3. However If the developers were trying to go for a bittersweet ending I think it definitely worked, it was objectively the better choice in terms of the world/characters outside the main party to not allow mordegon to take control. I also think it ties in well with the title "Echoes of an Elusive age" the elusive age being act 2.
That being said I think the game would've been better if it ended at the end of act 2.
Can't tell you how many videogames I've played where characters go to bed in full metal armor on or something lol
I think having a dragon under a castle is a normal trope in fantasy. It’s often used as a way to keep intruders that try to sneak into the castle through the sewers out.
Well about Verónica, lets say just that the Game doesnt have to much budget due they didnt even made animations of getting on and off from different monster the hero can ride, only the horae and when a characters goes out the screen, the same things, they doesnt even made drawings showing us the resolution of some arcs like when kingdoms are saved, only saying something like "and the city was saved, everyoke is happ"
My first time going through this game, I genuinely loved the idea of the dragon under the castle because I thought it was going to come back as some kind of guardian that we had to defeat later on in a future return to the kingdom. Then in act 2, we return to the castle to banish the never ending night, and beat up a zombie…
Act 3 didn't invalidate the journey/development of the first 2 acts. You are are allowed to choose not to go to another timeline/dimension. In the view of the MC; you decide that the journey that you had could be better if you go back to save the world before it takes damage. It's putting aside your personal feelings to ascend to something beyond a normal level of heroics. To save a time that isn't yours. That choice was made with the knowledge that you are leaving behind everything that you know and has happened. That's what makes the choice hard and incredible.
Otherwise I agree with a lot of your points on other things. Is it possible that the MC lost part of his memory when he went back in time? It would explain him not telling the party about what happened or not seeming too cautious around the false king. Based on the dialogue of the mermaid and Veronica; this isn't strictly a new past, but a separate timeline where characters have deja vu over what happened in another time (or rather where routes can vary for the case of the mermaid since you can make a choice that causes her to live). It's convoluted, yes, but it makes more sense to me.
I recall that the game clearly stated it was an alternate timeline and that the timeline from Act 2 is still going without you. I'm pretty sure it mentioned that there would be side effects too (I also thought the MC had a fuzzy memory for that first bit). It's odd, but it seemed to make as much sense as time/timeline travel ever does. Other than that, I thought there was a pretty obvious theme of sacrifice - that the game was asking the player if they wanted to sacrifice their own personal happiness (bonds with their party acquired through the struggles in Act 2) for the sake for everyone else's happiness. The feeling of loss seems completely intentional, not a mistake that the developers didn't consider. I wouldn't call any of it a waste of time, and for some reason people don't say the same thing about Nier: Automata when it asks you to delete your save file (that game actually got tons of praise by asking the player to make a personal sacrifice, so maybe DQ11 should have been more direct about it?)
That’s an interesting way to look at the time travel. I never even really considered that.
I honestly hesitated to go through with it. I even initially went with “no, I’m not doing this.”
You’ve given me something to think about. Thanks for this.
Yeah exactly, that was actually the strong point of chapter 3 to me, that the game is set back was an intended tragic component and of course if we choosed differently in an alternate reality we might never turn out the same way. It's a give and take, like giving you back Veronica results in Serena never getting through her character arc. I don't think it's worthless, it's just different.
Wait, there's a choice you can make where Michelle survives?
*Immediately starts new file*
What happens if you choose not to? I remember being so upset by Veronica dying on my first playthrough, that i immediately went back.
Dude as someone who went from absolutely hating to loving Hendrik by the time he first joined my party, he really got the short end of the stick as far as time travel is concerned (Serena is a close pick too for me). Even with the Definitive Edition's postgame content.
He's my easily my favorite party member and the depth of his dynamic with the Luminary got sullied from a storytelling standpoint if you ask me.
Also, weird side question: can someone explain the DQXI continuity to me? I was under the impression that the maingame and postgame timelines were a sort of paradox going off Hendrik's postgame story in the definitive edition of the game (plus you have some Michelle dialogue referencing her death in Act I depending on your choices that also influenced my interpretation). I am a newcomer to DQ, so maybe I'm just missing something veteran fans already know.
Ok so there are two “timelines” in Dragon Quest, both start with eleven. In one timeline, the luminary stops mordegon and kills calasmos, earning the title of Erdrick and leading to the Erdrick Trilogy of games 3, 2, 1, in that chronological order
In the other timeline, the one where mordegon destroyed Calasmos’s body and was then killed by the luminary, the luminary went back in time and thus there was no one to become Erdrick there, but this leads to the Zenithian trilogy of 6, 4, 5, in that chronological order, later on
So a fun little detail about Michelle that kinda surprised me is if you tell her the truth about Kai, she will inevitably die. So seeing her kinda magically return in act 3 even though that particular choice was before act 2 is something i got a "...seriously?" vibe from.
That was the one thing about Act 3 that I absolutely hated.
So that choice actually matters?
I would agree that act 3 isn't really perfect. However, I personally think the statement ' "plot holes" like michelle being alive and resolutions being removed completely' is not really completely correct. The concept of time travel is often made on theory, so it's often confuse people. Time travel as a story element always makes things crazy as time travel and it's effects is literally based on how the writer's theory for time travel.
I think in act 3, he is sent into another time line which is similar concept to the anime ' steins gate '. How do we know it's a different timeline? As u can see michelle is lied to that kai is still alive and that never happened in act 1. In different timelines different things happened. In ' steins gate ', people still remember events that happened in other timelines in a form of dream. And I think there are evidence that people remember some of the events in act 2 like veronica feeling strangely happy being with the others in the castle of heliodor, which hints that she remembers that she died in act 2.
I am personally satisfied with act 3 but I do agree the time traveling thing does cause a lot more unexplained events and it does harm the story telling, since time travel is a pretty complex concept which would make a lot of inconsistencies. I am a believer that "the game should tell the story itself, and player's interpretation is unrequired", so which is why act 3 is not perfect. But I think with references to other time travel stories like 'steins gate ', act 3 gets a pass for me as many of the new stuff happened in act 3 can be explained in the theory of time line being different. The story well didn't tell us that they remember act 2 stuff but I personally wanna believe that they somehow remember some of it at least in a form of deja vu.
If you play any of the other dragon quest games it’s clear that there is different timelines and 11 comes and wraps them all together with the time travel split, act 2 being the timeline where there is no hero bloodline or no sword of light since he breaks the sword of light in that timeline, aka dq8 doesn’t have a sword of light or a bloodline hero, and would also explain why in the new game with Erik he seems to go to a dragon world, which looks like a prehistoric dragovian sanctuary. Also if you play the dragon quest builder games it seems to take place in that timeline as well since that’s where Erdrick (Erdwin) lost and in builders is a world that got taken over after the villain won. Also the sword of light is there, the original one, so it’s before 11, then after hero helps Erdwin win in his time and helps serenica get back to her time is where dq3 then the original 1 and 2 take place since they won in those games. So 11 is a sequel prequel essentially, and connects all the games if you pay attention. I can go on and on and explain how each game connects but I’ll write a whole essay on here if I do, but you get my point.
@@keninthondelgadillo just write a reddit post or something I would read it
I hate games that have the silent protagonist that can't talk.
I hated Act 3 so much. Act 2 was such a masterpiece that nearly every decision that Act 3 made basically undid all the character development and made the Luminary look like an idiot. The only thing that Act 3 did right was bring Veronica back, but using time travel was a poor choice when they could just done something resurrection magic and made that part of the storyline and still had the parts with Calasmos.
Literally the only thing I like about act 3 is that Veronica comes back
@@galaxyjake2726 Same. And even then, I was fine with Veronica staying dead because it did such a great job in setting up Serena's development.
Veronica should had stayed dead. brining people back from the dead invalidates their sacrifice.
Oh my God finally someone pointing out the flaws in this game the main thing that got me was your first video on this because I went through hell to get married and only to realize wow this wasn't worth it
For #'s 1 & 2, mods that *everyone* should look up:
1 - NPC Appearance Swap (allows you to play as Adult Veronica)
2- Hidden Areas (allows you to fast travel to numerous extra areas in the game)
Japanese audience. We all know why veronica stayed like a child
"Moshi Moshi, Keisatsu?"
For me, I’m fine with the Veronica & Black Dragon Thing. I’m a bit irked out on Cetacea and the character development on Act 3.
So much had to be sacrificed just for a happy ending which makes it bittersweet and something you should really be serious and determined about. It’s far from good but I like what they’re trying if it’s just a bit more thought through. What ruins it is how as you pointed out, the Luminary acts after the whole incident.
In defence of Act 3...I feel like that's the cost of time travel. Many popular media like movies and comic books which tackled time travelling concepts have the same issue.
In my opinion, Act 2 wasn't a waste. This has more to do with how we look at time travel.
How I see the time travel to work is that when the Luminary travels back in time, another timeline is created. So basically the Luminary "dies" in the Act 2 timeline when he goes back in time, but Act 2's progression, the other characters, and the timeline itself remains in tact.
Something about guards who seem to regularly patrol the sewers and the whole dragon thing had me loling
Oh and 'with his shoes still on' 🤣
Not to mention no blanket, great guest accommodations for a royal castle
its funny because on the 3DS version you can fly wherever you want, but they reduced your freedom for the ps4 versions. I suppose it would make extra work with deciding landable spots for the whole map? idk
I actually quit DQXI after experiencing Act 3, Act 2 was the more complete ending for me and Act 3 seemed like it was just pressed for time to be completed just to fight the main boss.
Michelle was the one thing I absolutely hated about Act 3. Super cop out (maybe. Idk), but they could’ve taken that chance to suddenly reveal that she had a twin sister who was far away and rushed back when she heard of her sister’s passing, and she was the one who ended up there, maybe becoming good friends with Kainoa and learning more about her sister’s tragic fate.
Also, something that wasn’t brought up in either video revolves around the Sword of Light. In the main artwork for the game, in the opening cutscene, and even in Smash as a whole, the Sword has a scabbard on the Luminary’s back, but in the DQXI game itself, there’s no scabbard. It’s one of the few swords with none. If it was because the sword never had one, or in the case of the one forged from scratch they didn’t make one, why not just do what Zelda’s been doing for decades and just have it come out of nowhere?
you can lie to her in act 1, and say that Kai IS coming back.
I completely agree about act 3. Great game but not very keen on act 3.
I kinda hate how they turn down the oportunity to make veronica a character with a transformation command, a first for the franchise, and a bonus for new game plus or something, they were going to find the luminary anyways. Now she just feels weirdly inhuman, like Persona 5 Morgana or something
Zoom magic makes unnecessary to Cetacea lands in any place, but indeed, they forgot about that distant islands. The luminary knew that the king was possessed, but kept this as a secret to more easily unmask him. Sure, sleeping in the castle was a mistake, perhaps he tried to kept awake, but failed because he underestimated how tired he was. The guards knew about the dragon: it was kept there to guard the dungeon and prevent invasions. The time travel is more like a time rewind: the characters demonstrate that somehow in an unconscious level, they know about events in act 2. Veronica says suddenly that she is happy to be alive, but says that she does not know why she is having this sensation. They do not remember, but their souls remember. And this explains why things develop much more suddenly. But yeah, Michelle should not be alive, that indeed made absolutely no sense.
Anyway, going back in time surely was a completely irrational irresponsible thing. The Luminary placed the entire world at risk again just to save a single person. And in my time rewind interpretation, this also means that all this was for entirely nothing because in the final ending, the Luminary let Serenica perform the same rewind, but back to thousands of years in the past, erasing all the story.
One of the personal dumb things of this game is you get caught by the guards during the dragon part of the game you mentioned. Once I got an attack that can harm dragons and that and I was a lvl 30 I was like “oh my god cool awesome I can beat up that dragon now! And not get caught by the guards!” But no just cause you reset the game with your new lvl you and Erik are just like “dragons dead…. Cool come on” then the guards get you.
While at the Yggdrasil Tree you can talk to Carnilian twice. The second dialogue is asking the protag why are you looking at him, like that. So the Hero doesnt forget.
Also i believe there were rumors about a dragon under Hilodor. I think the kingdom was built over cave knowing this.
I'm all for "dumb things" videos for other Dragon Quest games. More DQ videos in my subscription feed is certainly welcome.
Honestly probably a hot take but I like that they reset even the character arcs with the time travel. So often time travel in media just ignores consequences of it and simply treats it as a plot device. And it also makes death sacrifices feel weightless. It keeps Veronica’s sacrifice meaningful while adding clear consequences for using time travel to fix everything. Though in a way it’s why I saw act 3 to be an alternate ending over a continuation. The split between the two being whether or not the luminary goes back in time. Act 2 being the main ending while act 3 is essentially is more of a what if senario then a continuation. Don’t get me wrong a lot of things about act 3 urk me especially with how stupid the luminary acts, but it still felt like my time wasn’t wasted from my perspective
I didn't have a problem at first with him not dealing with the king immediately because it would have been easy for Mordagon to either turn it against him and make the Luminary look like a monster, or let the king fall to the Luminarys attacks on purpose.
What i do have a problem with was leaving the sword literally lying in the open and deciding to just go to sleep.
Heck an easy way to fix it would have been to have the Protagonist be pretending to sleep to get the drop on Mordagon or have a quest be to have a Decoy fake sword made.(heck the original scene could work as an option for what happens if you didn't make any preparations to counter Mordagon.)
My personal theory on the Luminary in act three is that he’s biding his time so Mordegan can out himself in Carneilian’s own city so everyone can see for themselves, rather than just straight up attack him.
That said, I think it’s a shame that there was no quest in Act 3 that allowed you to get your companions memories of Act 2 restored.
Well if that was his intention he made no moves at all to protect the sword from him.
dont tell me this april fool video
Honestly, I didn't dislike going back and losing progression.
It was a different experience.
What I didn't like was the characters getting level boost to the same as the MC, and getting back the skill trees.
I wanted to train them again, I wanted to unlock the skill trees again, not having it handed to me.
I actually really liked the backtracking because it was a different experience.
I think some of the issues with Act 3 couldve been very simply fixed by the protagonist bringing the entire party with him back in time. It makes the reunion with Veronica so much more satisfying, and makes sure the party you've worked with and loved gets a happy ending too
I played DQXI with my 9 yo daughter and she loved that Veronica was a tough kid consistently, and was thrilled that she stayed as a kid. You missed the mark here amazingly.
I missed veronica during the entire act 2, when I heard midway what happened it was heartbreaking. I have never been impacted as much by a character dying in any other game. However act 3 was a bit of an insult to act 2. As much as I liked Veronica, her purpose was fulfilled and everyone had grown BECAUSE of her death, not despite it. Erasing time just for her didn’t feel right. However, I wanted more dq, so I said yes. I believe act 3 is sort of a meta punishment for the player, where it asks of you; „is this really what you wanted?“ sort of like when at the end of undertale (spoilers) Sans asks you to not reset the game, even tho you want to experience the other routes. At the end your selfish desire for more game ends up costing you the game.
I liked that Verónica and the Luminary have a platonic relationship in te end
1. I could see the developers not wanting to grow up Veronica because it would be too expensive to make the character art.
2. I agree with the Whale. It is the worst airship ever.
3. I can understand why at first the Dark Spawn doesn't inform everyone about Carnelia. Dark Spawn is still in the delicate trusting state so if he goes and accuses the high king right away without proof then he may be thrown in jail by Carnelia and Hendrick. I don't understand why he completely drops his guard back at the castle or doesn't communicate to his party that Carnelia is bad.
I liked the act 3, literally because it was a reason to play the game more and do actual story instead of fighting big and chunky bosses in 2d world.
Well, for the act 3 of going back in time, The Time Keeper kept saying "To lose time is to lose much." Apparently "much" includes sanity.
I think the luminary first playing along with the king's actakes sense to me because what good is it gonna do? The king is still a powerful foe and just exposing him at this point would have put not only the hero's group but also yggdrasil in unecessary danger. He would have hendrick on his bad side again if he just went and attacked the king so just waiting it out and at least get veronica to safety first felt like the best option, at least to me
"To lose time, is to lose much"
It's not that they didn't want to animate the adult model of Veronica, it's probably rigged like any other model considering she's in the magic burst animation.
The thing is just that the developers wanted to stick with the little kid with a big mouth / wiser than she appears trope over giving her story actual resolution.
In ten years when we get an XI remake I’m hoping we get a new Veronica scenario added.
there is no way we'll get an XI remake in ten years😂its been 6 years since the release of dq11 and we havent even gotten another mainline game yet
I think the luminary doesn't actually recall everything. He just gets little flashbacks, like the back attack as he reached for the sword in the world tree
FINALY someone talks abotu michelle being alive when she died much before the fall of yggdrasil
Veronica was my favorite character and even years later I'm still salty her adulthood wasn't restored.
When it comes to act 3 I always thought of when you get your levels back the memories of act 2 are also implemented into your party members, otherwise how else would they remember how to use those new skills? I somewhat agree with Serena tho but only for the gameplay part, it would be nice to see a cutscene of them acknowledging the memories because from my recollection don’t the party members know the luminary time traveled in act 3? Or is it just like “oh hey I’m back btw I have all of your shit”
I like the game, and Act III was a Good call for the Luminary.
I think I have an explanation about Luminary's actions after he went back in time: after defeating Jasper and knowing that Carnelian was possesed by Mordegon, he began to merge with his present self and then, losing his memories (this kind of situation happened in the manga One Punch Man, sorry about the soft spoiler, friends).
Also, i think that Luminary knew about Mordegon inside Carnelian but he doesn't have the proofs enough to unmask him until he trying to steal the Super Sword of Light.
A dragon being under the castle protects the castle from any invader trying to use those tunnels to get into the castle lol The same reason why alligators are in a mote around a castle.
Veronica coming back to life is her power-up...
Here’s a fun drinking game: Every single time something stupid, illogical, and/or makes no sense in Dragon Quest VI take a shot
One thing about landing is in 2d mode you can land normally on any valid space
I would REALLY love to see another followup vid for this! Perhaps do one for some of the other DQ games?
Huh you did talk about the Veronica thing I said on the previous video :D you are the best Chief
i dont mind satacea at all and i liked how out of the way some of the islands were. it upped the difficulty because not only do you have to beat the bosses there but you had to survive with enough health and mana to get there in the first place
Regarding point 5: wasn't that the whole point? The time keeper thing did say: going back carries a cost.
I think the real reason that veronica didn't get her resolution is because she dies. This ruins her entire character and hampers the gameplay. Ypu dont get a black mage for all of act 2. Aka usually one of the best points in time for a black mage. This combined with the only other offensive magic user is rab who i find to be much better in a support role. Veronica should have been saved during act 2, maybe revived or something. She got shafted hard.
Act 3 really killed my drive to finish the game. Everything just.... gone. Act 2 gave you a bittersweet ending that actually got to you and then its just thrown out the window. The luminary being the silent idiot upon regressing was also something that annoyed me a lot. Generally, why was he silent anyway? Feels so weird when characters are talking to you and the camera pans to the luminary only for him to stare soullessly ahead. I know it's 'tradition' but still, would have enjoyed the first 2 arcs more if he was voiced.
I prefer silent protags. As we've seen with many other RPGs, a terrible/annoyong voice can completely ruin a character, so I'd rather they just not do it so I can actually like them.
My favorite thing about the black dragon in act 1 is they don't explain it, and in Act 2 all you get from it is it being a regular normie enemy that you're probably able to take out easily.
I think the veronica thing is because serena and verinica looks pretty similar
as far as act 3 goes, i feel like everything you talked about was the entire point of it. you had to sacrifice A LOT to get veronica back. she sacrificed her life and you sacrificed some of your happiness not just as characters, but as a player
Act 3 itself was a bit of a rushed convenience at the end in terms of it's story. When i played it for the first time i was Genuinely conflicted and was tempted never to play the post game content because I WORKED for this happy bitter sweet ending. Sure Veronica is dead but from her death came SO MUCH. Seeing the world torn apart and then slowly rebuilding itself was a treat for me because i love those kinda stories. What irks me about act three though is it feels like there could have been a full act 3 in terms of story content but it felt more like a bullet point. All the events retold but in a quicker and less meaningful way. Sure we went back to prevent an apocalypse but we also miss out again on character development that is too precious. Kinda a sad thing to say but in trying to get a HAPPIER ending for all we end up abandoning one timeline for another only to create more problems in the wake.
the black dragon under the castle of heliodor is some kind of national Icon, because it's the source of the scales wich were used to make the black sword and the black shield of Heliodor, so it being under the castle in a place we saw it cant scape, although its not the best way to have a national insignia, is actually not that dangerous or dumb
I could be missremembering, but I'm pretty sure that the reason for the main char for some reason forgetting the bad guy is a bad guy when traveling back, is literally because he have forgotten. I'm 99% sure that it is explained that when traveling back, he will forget certain things. It is very dumb, but if I remember currectly, at least there is a reason.
Also, another point I'm very sure you are incurrect about: Yes, when you travel back in time, all of the progression from act 2 is technically lost. But not really. Once again, I could be missremembering, but I'm once again 99% sure that the "act 2" will still be going on, they just wont have YOU there anymore. So when traveling back, you split the timeline, and there is now 2 timelines.
But he does remember that the King attacks Hendrick, so that point of him not remember is invalid. I love DQ 11, but the whole Act III is just a steaming pile of shit
@@dimitrijekulak3347 I don't remember that part. Why does him remembering some things but not all, one being the king attacking Hendrick, invalidate anything?
@@LoveToSpootch he saw him using the same attack that Jasper used. It should be pretty obvious to him that something was wrong. He clearly had enough evidence to know that the King was Mordegon. But he has to be a stupid silent protagonist for suspense. Even if he wasn't 100% (which I find hard to believe), he still leaves his sword unguarded next to his bed. Luminary is without a doubt the most stupid MC ever.
Cateca can land you anywhere in the 2D version, not sure why
Going back in time to save Veronica was POST game. It was optional, the game even said it wouldn't be the same if you went back in time. You don't have to do it, if you preferred to leave the game's story as it was then you could have.
You didn't turn on dragon hard mode on.
He was shy and couldn't speak up when the king was possessed. Our hero cowers in battle with the gods thinking how silly his enemy thinks of his haircut.
Our hero has no people skills.
Japanese otaku needs their loli. Having an adult model wouldn't be "too much work" since they released 5 different versions of the game (a bunch of ports, a 16 bit AND 3ds version) and her sister uses the exact same model. Heck just pay a modder $50 to do it in a few days. They just want to have another character who's legal but looks like a child. Not all players want it of course but that niche has a very strong presence.
The funny thing about the dragon it’s possible to beat it either over level and squeeze out a win at level 21 or new game+ 1shot it.
The worst thing that could happened to this game was act 3, the stupid time travel. As you said, it ruins everything. Death doesn't have a meaning anymore, like in dragon ball, they can resurrect every time. Verónica's sacrifice was epic and the most shocking point of the plot, and they ruined it. I think it wasn't necessary to being her back, the story ended so meaningful. In fact, I don't even play with her on my party xD and doing the last part of the game feels so empty and without a purpose.
I mean you have zoom you don't need the whale
Veronica was only used as a mascot. People love cute, chibi characters.
speaking of the airship, the ship is the same way with only being able to dock in specific locations.
like you said in the video in DQ8 you could land and dock anywhere why sailing and flying.
I came to DQ11 as someone who grew up playing DQ8. Absolutely love the game, struggled to hell and back to be Dhoulmagus and have many fond memories of the game.
DQ11's Act 3 is something I really dislike. Serena is my - and I assume /many/ others - favorite character and the way she developed [and got short hair, yeet] was amazing. Unlocking Veronica's skill trees felt awesome and having ECHO CAST on Serena was a chef's kiss. Michelle being alive irritated me because the moment I went to the Strand to check for the chest to finish the Mini Medals, the moment I saw her sitting on the rock alive I was disappointed.
I NEVER liked Veronica, still don't. She very much acts like an entitled brat and I would happily trade her for 1 Gold. The fact she had a moment of returning to her proper age pissed me off because I was hoping that would act as a development point and lead to her acting more mature, but of course that didn't happen. That would make her likable. I also HATED unlocking flying only for it to not lead to any useful travel. Godbird was so nice because it unlocked unique areas WORTH going to, such as Metal Slime Hill. I remember watching guides years ago for DQ8 and had my mind blown finding out about that area. Cetacea just... gets me to a pointless Waystation.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention all the repetitive "pep power" sidequests throughout the whole game. Felt like more than 70% of the games sidequests were tutorials for the pep power mechanic lol.
I say one of the other dumb thing is that you don't even get to keep the outfits because they give you all these really cool outfits that takes forever just to get and you can't even use them in ng+ so it's like what's the point in getting them then