Mark Hofmann & "Murder Among the Mormons" Pt 1 - Mormon Stories 1405: Sandra Tanner
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix. (SPOILER ALERT!!!)
While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.
I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:
What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood?
When and how did Hofmann loose his Mormon faith?
What are the similarities between Joseph Smith and Hofmann?
What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
What role did the church play in hiding or covering up Hofmann's forgeries and contributing to the environment that led up to the bombings?
Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings.
All this, and so much more.
Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.
We hope you enjoy, and a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us their historic insight. For me, this was a true honor. MORE TO COME!
P.S. If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!
Timecodes:
00:00:00 - Summary of Sandra’s background
00:14:51 - Sandra’s understanding of Mark Hofmann’s early life & beliefs
00:19:39 - Hofmann’s exposure to treasure digging and LDS truth claims
00:32:02 - Parallels between Hofmann and Joseph Smith
00:36:12 - Theories surrounding the Golden Plates & Book of Mormon
00:45:30 - Speculations on Hofmann’s faith crisis
00:55:53 - Hofmann’s mission, & his research into Mormon history
00:57:03 - Salamander Letter
00:58:50 - Sandra on intentional deception by church leaders
01:00:58 - Hofmann first comes to the Tanners in 1978 to share first known forgery on the 2nd Anointing
01:09:07 - Hofmann’s lack of empathy
01:12:44 - Hofmann’s ego & desire to pull off the “ultimate deception”
01:14:23 - Hofmann’s desire to embarrass the church & expose the faults their “power of discernment”
01:18:50 - Comparisons of Joseph Smith and Hofmann - their “Ponzi schemes” unraveling into chaos and violence
01:20:56 - Discussion of Anthon transcript
01:28:34 - Jerald Tanner first uncovers forgery in 1960s - Oliver Cowdery pamphlet
01:31:21 - Jerald received pushback on forgery claims
01:39:08 - Hofmann’s Joseph Smith III Succession Forgery
01:54:11 - LDS church “front buyers”
01:57:09 - Hofmann’s claim to have the McLellin collection
02:05:19 - Lyn Jacobs
02:08:18 - Questions regarding Hofmann’s sexuality
02:14:09 - Hofmann’s 1825 Letter from Joseph Smith to Josiah Stowell
02:17:42 - What church leaders knew about Joseph Smith’s use of folk magic and treasure digging
02:21:15 - The Smith family merging of folk magic with Christianity
02:28:52 - LDS General Authorities sanitizing Mormon church history (Hinckley, Oaks, Turley)
02:32:50 - Wilford C. Wood “buying up” valuable church artifacts
02:36:29 - Smearing critics
02:44:40 - Top LDS Church leaders knowing problems with church truth claims, but continuing to mislead members
02:46:55 - “rule” that Joseph Smith can’t be known as an intentional deceiver
02:49:56 - General Authorities Hugh B. Brown & B.H. Roberts - questions in faith
02:59:51 - Integrity of Jerald Tanner.
03:05:53 - Martin Harris
03:07:26 - Potential motives and means for deception
03:12:39 - The Anthon Manuscript & photo of Hofmann with LDS General Authorities
03:32:13 - “Salamander or Moroni?” pamphlet for Sunstone Symposium
03:52:51 - Tanners disrespected by the Mormon history community & treatment of the Tanners by Dialogue and Sunstone
04:01:01 - Sandra’s sister was embarrassed by her work
04:03:05 - Sandra’s motivation to keep going.
04:07:41 - The McLellin papers & other Hofmann forgeries
04:09:11 - discussion of Richard Turley’s book on Hofmann & Mormon church’s obstruction of the murder investigation
04:13:47 - Hofmann’s motives for murder & conviction
04:19:27 - Discussion of first murder
04:23:13 - Brent Ashworth as potential target of Hofmann’s 3rd bomb
04:33:04 - Hofmann’s plan to forge the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon
It's great to see Sandra Tanner here again, John. She is a living legend.
Totally agree!!
Amen!
May the Lord continue to sustain her & give her strength.
I dont mean to be so offtopic but does anyone know of a method to get back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb forgot my account password. I love any assistance you can offer me
@Raiden Maurice Instablaster :)
I so admire this lady. Her tenacity and drive to reveal the best kept secrets of the LDS church were epic. I credit her efforts with opening so many eyes to what was really going on behind the curtain. Thank you Sandra (and Jerald ). Thanks John for hosting her. 👍🏽
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Sandra Tanner is like the Grand Dame of Mormon truth telling. If I am going to be honest I remember her being criticized heavily (from the pulpit even!) while growing up and just going along with demonizing her. I owe her a HUGE apology and I owe her my thanks. The truth will always come out. Thank you Sandra & Gerald for always being honest and for your integrity
Amen.
Diane Tulin, this is both a sad and important comment.
🙌 Wow, Now you know both sides of how people view this quite incredible lady and I love you for your apology.. 🎶💧🌱💦🌳
Ooo, a good reminder about the scales being removed from our eyes. I reckon we've all been the blind man sitting by the side of the road, during various stages of our lives. 🤔
Praying that we all prosper and grow together... 🙏🏽
I'd totally forgotten this until now, I remember as an LDS kid on the Midwest some adult ward members talking smack about " The Tanners and "people like that' . We mostly didn't pay to much attention to what was going on in Utah, just as most rank and file Catholics don't pay all that much attention to to the day to day workings of The Vatican, but we did get word of the things being discussed here.
I met Sandra in the late eighties. Went to the bookstore and purchased 'A View of the Hebrews' and William Morgan's 'Expose of Freemasonry'. That's what did it for me. Thank you so much, Sandra. You saved my life.
She looks fantastic! She is such a resilient person and always so good humored about her experiences. I was so happy to see this live show pop up.
We stand on the shoulders of giants, Tanners, and Dehlins. Thank you for devoting your lives and platforms to share Mormon History and Mormon Stories.
Sandra’s “these aren’t the droids you’re looking for” reference might be the most epic thing I’ve ever heard 😂
Completely iconic, I love her.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for" - Sandra Tanner, 2021.
And shockingly accurate.
Sandra Tanner is living history. We are so lucky to have this interview which fills in a lot of gaps and details. Kudos to your technical staff. Sandra Tanner looks 20 years younger than another recent interview. Lighting is amazing. John, your respect for and interest in Sandra Tanner makes a SPECTACULAR interview. She is a treasure and restores my faith in human kind. interview seems to stop abruptly at the end.
When I was looking into Mormonism years ago I ran across Sandra on your podcast John. Both of you saved me.
Thank goodness! My parents joined in the early 70’s when I was young. I can remember hearing about the Tanner’s and not to listen to those anti-Mormons. I’m 53 yrs old now and just finally coming across all of this. Crazy to me that I have not come across it sooner.
Same here!
Thank you so much, John, for bringing Sandra back!
If only LDS members realized how much Jerald and Sandra have done to help them know the truth about Mormonism, we would see BYU being renamed after them! 😀
JSTANNER University has a good ring to it. JSTU!!
I was listening to this while working out, and when Sandra said "we were running the drugs" I fell over and almost messed up my knee. Thanks for having her back John. She is Great!
I will watch any interview with Sandra Tanner!
So ironic that Jerald Tanner had more "discernment" than President Hinkley regarding the Hoffman forgeries . . .
Crazy.
Kimball was prez then.
Hinkley was in charge of the purchasing of the documents
You know I thought that too at the time
Yup!
I absolutely LOVE Sandra Tanner!! Thank you Sandra for your time and kindness in speaking with John. One of the best interviews ever! I could listen to the both of you all day long. Your dedicated work has helped me on my journey out of the church. Thank you.
I hope you found Christianity in Christian Churches that only go by the Bible...not all the other books.
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, save he revealeth his secret unto his servant Gerald Tanner
She is adorable. Her memory is amazing. She is the Nancy Drew of exMormonism.
Agreed!
I came here to say something like that, but couldn't say it better.
I already had much respect for Sandra Tanner but then she said “these aren’t the droids you’re looking for” and my respect when up tenfold.
Wow, Sandra is a legend. What a treat for us, thank you John. Love from South Africa 🇿🇦 💜
I'm not a believer in God myself post Mormonism, but I adore Sandra and respect her belief. I actually remember hearing about the Tanners in seminary as a teen in Oregon in the late 90s. I didn't know what they did, I just knew they were "anti-mormon". When I met her at a Thrive event I told her I had been warned about her. 😉😂 Another great interview with her. 👍💕
Christianity is not always easy buy it is.freeing in the end. Mrs. Tanner is easy to listen to. Good day!
Amy Christensen,I can,I can't understand why you and others not a believer in God or an a God.After Mormonism,I found a Jesus Christ, Our SAVIOR, and our God.Sandra help me to see the God who created this world, the darkness turns to light, The Bible is a great book,I think it is the greatest Book,if you have not , Please do so.God bless you.
@@brentwooden1219 what exactly cant you understand? It’s a book of stories you have no proof much of it actually happened or there is a god. I’m really surprised you wouldn’t understand?
Perhaps Mormonism was not the biggest problem you had
@@junejune1031 agreed! And if Jesus was so great how come he never said “by the way, don’t own people”. Funny there are some good things, but still awful things from Jesus. They are simply stories and morals of the time. Thankfully we are moving past magical believes, spells, potions and that people are born bad.
I absolutely worship this woman of infinite wisdom!
The irony is she wouldn't want to be worshiped.
I too am a fan of Sandra ( and the Tanners' work) but I am non religious.
For me, as I don't claim to know God, Sandra has more meaning! I am sure she would be unhappy about that.
I was hoping this exact interview would happen after watching the Netflix special and Ms. Tanner did not disappoint!
Now to interview Shannon Flynn...🤞🤞🤞 Hope you're already on that, John.
That would be awesome.
Yes!
I remember Shannon Flynn from the documentary because he seemed to be really emotionally involved and very damaged by the tragic consequences of Hoffman, outside of the obvious financial losses. I suspect it’s not a place he wants to visit often.
What an extraordinary lady Mrs Tanner is. Thank you for this interview.
I was fortunate to meet and talk to Sandra and Gerald Tanner back in the late 80s/early 90s. I was on the brink of leaving the Church already and this meeting sealed my fate!
I thought the documentary was really good. When a deceiver goes up against the master deceivers the only ones hurt are the truly deceived-the true Believing members. Thank you Dr. John and Sandra!
Listened to all of this one - I could listen to her for days. So knowledgeable and a good speaker. Im glad she is still with us and made it through these tough times.
Thanks Dr. D ! Great episode. Again...
There’s 28k+ subscribers. If we all donate $1 a month, that would bring thousands of dollars a month so John can keep doing this amazing work.
How do you donate?
Justin Masterson John Delhin can create a PayPal account or any other type of account so we can donate.
Thank you for this. Reminded me to update my payment info. Now that we don’t pay tithes, let’s support others who are going through what we’ve been through and are still going through!
My favorite. Thanks john
I'm amazed Hoffman's defense didn't simply argue that he was following the example of his prophet, Joseph Smith. "Your Honor, I plead the Smith..."
🤣
LOL!
Beautiful Sandra!!! Thank you so much for coming on. So good to see her. Still as young and vibrant a ever. I admire her and have the deepest respect. I’m so grateful for the work of both of you. Sending a great big imaginary hug for each. Thanks for all you do🌸💝🌸
I'm not even LDS and I find this all so fascinating!
me too??
This is wonderful. Thank you, Sandra.
So timely and informative!
What a fantastic interview. My favourite (approximate) quote: It's hard to be married to someone who's almost always right.
I sooo disagree with this precious woman on this. I too am married to a wonderful man who truly, actually IS “almost always right!”. It is wonderful, it gives such great security! It is a huge blessing to our family to have such wisdom at hand.
Great convo. Thomas Bullock was my 4th great grandfather so thanks for covering this. I was surprised it wasn’t covered in documentary.
This is incredible. Thank you both
The way the leaders of the Church did not fully and openly cooperate with the police is one of the reasons I really started questioning the background of the church and the teachings. I always felt they should have been completely open and even volunteered all they knew about Hoffman and all their dealings with him. It left me with the thought the leaders were shifty and secretive!
Sandra Tanner, There's no telling how many lives she has touch with the TRUTH.She is a lighthouse for the people who seeking the TRUTH.God bless you and be with you always 🙏🙏🙌
Love Sandra so much. Healing to see her again. Healing over all of this has been horrific. Love you Sandra. Thank you
This is so amazing! As a non Mormon, it is easily understood and helps with conversations with those who live in Vermont.
I am sorry for your losses. I've been told that many people with Alzheimer's are very smart. Dad had that issue. Prayers and a hug. I enjoyed this program and have it thumbs up. I joined.
Hi John and Sandra 👋🏻👋🏻✌🏼❤️ Integrity is honesty cubed ❤️
Thank you Sandra for sharing your perspectives and knowledge. You are one of my heroes for sure.
My friend used to play chess with Mark in prison and he said he had big hate for the Mormon Church.
Goes without saying lol
What was his ELO rating?
Sandra is amazing!
So, where did everyone think Mark was finding all these papers? Who stumbles upon historical records to sell multiple times? That in itself should have made him suspect to people.
Right! And how Mark fooled all these people but wasn't able to fool Gerald or the detective on the case. And these were just people from Utah. Goes to show you don't find something if you aren't looking for it
It appeared at the time 'the church's was afraid of bad publicity ... well "they" created the bad publicity and questions of discernment and profetship by spending $100,000.00+ on forged documents! I knew from the get go they were forged...
I loved seeing you in the documentary!
In the late 1960s I met a woman from my work who was Mormon. I went with her several times to her "church". Since my family were Lutheran for many generations this choice was frowned upon. The mess that's going on now with Lori and Chad Daybell and the murders of their spouses and children is frightening especially since it's happening mostly in Utah, the Mormon "homeland'.
I picture the likes of John and Sandra on some days celebrating, "See?!! I told you so!!" And then other days mourning, "See? I told you so."
QAnon, Young Earth Creationists, Flat Earthers, Mormonism ... Is there a difference? I will forever be indebted to the Tanners. It's the evidence that they made public that made possible my escape from my father's religion. In all probability, faithful Latter-day Saints believe their church is true for one simple reason: THEY KNOW NOTHING OF THE EVIDENCE THAT IT'S NOT. Great interview. Thanks, Sandra (and Gerald).
Hugh Pinnock (Presidency of the Seventy) specifically asked Hofmann to find "two very important items" for the church. The first was the lost 116 pages and the second was "something too sensitive to mention that the late Elders Mark E. Peterson and G. Homer Durham were most involved in prior to their deaths" which Pinnock later revealed was a seer stone. See: Utah Holiday Magazine - January 1986.
this would mean that those 2 church leaders weren't aware of the stones locked in the vault, which we know they always had. These guys keep secrets from EACH OTHER, so they easily keep it from the people.
@@scottpurves My interpretation is that they knew perfectly well about the stones in the vault, but there is one Joseph Smith stone that they are missing. From what I've read/heard I believe that it is Smith's white stone that they were looking for. The article doesn't say whose stone they were looking for (there are seer stones belonging to other early Mormons, and Hofmann dealt in them) so this is just my assumption.
Enlightening historical information, thank you so much l!
I knew Mark Hofmann through our video store Videoland. When he came in to rent movies he was a very nice man and he made jokes with my dad about the Mormon church. We are strong Lutheran and grew up in Salt Lake City. We just learned to love everyone. When it happened we couldn't believe Steve Christensen was dead as well. He also and his family rented from us even after it happened. We loved their family and was respectful to them. Shannon Flynn also rented and Kathy Sheats. We were in so much awe because some of these people had movies rented when it happened. We didn't care for a very long time about the movies and didn't charge late fees of course. I could not believe it when they said Mark Hofmann did it. I remember him driving up in that same car that was bombed. He was proud of that car. To this day I have bought every book on it and researched. It hit me hard I had talked on the phone with him about what new movies were in the store and would we reserve them. I am still in awe about it. and very sorry for the families.
Wow. Thank you for sharing.
I have always admired the Tanner's but even if they researched history showing falsehoods in the church but this proves they are the real deal by not saying something was true when it wasn't even if it would help their own cause. By doing this it makes them more credible. They may no longer be believers but they don't seem anti-Mormon either.
Ironically, although Sandra is Christian, she was one of the main reasons I became atheist. I greatly appreciate her for her help. I don't care that she is religious (even though theism is false in my opinion), I just care that she is the good person she is.
It's a myth that all, or even most, atheists hate Christians. I always try to argue against ideas, not against "the person."
The only thing I hate about atheist is knowing/believing that a Mormon Temple marriage won't keep my wife of 43 years and me alive and together.
My opinion, desires, and beliefs are irrelevant if they don't comport with reality.
@@quacks2much l am a Christian but my son is an atheist also. It's a difficult topic for us to discuss even though l try not to throw my Christianity in his face but it is hard because my faith is part of who l am. I have had to deconstruct some of my own black and white thinking growing up in a strict Christian home which is why l can identify with the LDS church. We also have extended family who are LDS.
@@suzannaturner299 I’m pretty lucky. My Mormon family members and I get along, even though I’m an atheist. That is not true of many Mormons, especially when it comes to certain issues, like a child who comes out gay.
If I had lived my Mormon religion (Mormon-Mormon only marriage), I wouldn’t have been married 43 years so far.
A Mormon might say, “Mormons are allowed to marry non-Mormons.” That is true, but misleading. If one spouse is not a Mormon, neither spouse can get to the highest “rung” of the celestial kingdom, thus their family cannot be “together forever.” The same used to be true for black/non-black marriages. Because blacks couldn’t go to the temple (until the change in 1978), neither spouse could reach “full salvation.”
40:00 and I remembered attending Institute classes in which these plates and 116 lost pages were designed to fool men. How the plates of Nephi were made by God because God knew that the plates of Lehi were going to be “stolen”. In retrospect, I can’t believe how gullible I was as a practicing Mormon.
2:56:00 Utlm.org was the original CES Letter.
If you can get a copy read:
" Covering Up The Black Hole In The Book of Mormon" by the Tanners.
It shows how Smith dealt with the problem of the lost 116 pages. It explains why there is so much "filler" in the section of the BOM that was written to cover the lost material, and why the author tries not to mention any names or details, that would contradict the lost material if, horror of horrors, it should re-emerge.
Great interview!!! Is the next Netflix episode going to be the Warren Jeffs and FLDS saga, and the Alta Academy and the Kingston clan.
Listen to the podcast Unfinished: Short Creek.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
I thank God for Sandra Tanner and this podcast
Excellent point by Sandra. Why didn't God have Joseph translate the "spiritual" pages first? What good would those 116 pages have even been, had they never been lost?
Hoffman was planning before his mission. In England the library's would monthly sell old books that no one was reading. Mark wasn't rich buying rare books, he was buying cheap old books published in the early 1800's. In all of these books there were always empty pages at the end of the books. Authentic paper made in early 1800's to forge bank notes, among other documents. Mark would send back a box of books every other month. Mark took a calligraphy class, his instructor said Mark's hand writing was as though it came from a machine, just beautiful. The sloppy writing was part of the Con for the masses, you and me.
Yes so they could not link his beautiful penmanship to these forged docs. His handwriting needed to be juvenile to not make him suspect
After watching Murder Among the Mormons, I get the feeling that, like Sandra said, he didn't really have any empathy. I get the feeling that he just enjoyed the challenge of deceiving people. Maybe it was something of a hobby for him that became lucrative and then the money talked.
Exactly. “The challenge of deceiving people.” That’s what he got out of it, to me.
@@tamaralambert2853 same as JS?
If she needs help transcribing records/documents for future PDF release, I'd be happy to volunteer my time!
Aren't there scanner apps that can turn pages of handwriting into a pdf text? I don't see why one would need to retype it all
I wonder how many LDS have ever seen the last 10 minutes of _Usual Suspects?_ The premise of the entire movie is revealed in such a way to prove one person can weave a tale by just observing their surroundings.
Charles Dickens was born around the same time as Joseph Smith - he left school at the age of 12 and his parents weren't teachers (like Joseph's were) and he wrote _Pickwick Papers_ before he turned 24. The argument that JS simply _couldn't_ have written BOM is one that really drives me nuts and one of the worst arguments I've ever heard.
4:04:55 Thank you Sandra! 🙌🏼🙏🏼
I’d say the Nauvoo Expositor episode is a testament of the leaders’ willingness to hide information exposing the truth about the inner workings of the church. That’s compounded by the fact that no “faithful” source ever tells the story (as far as I know) about it leading to Joseph’s arrest and death at Carthage. He’s always painted as a martyr. Even though our modern sensibilities say he should not have died for what he did, anything painting JS in a negative light must be suppressed. Truman G Madsen for me was THE authority on JS. He mentions the Expositor and Joseph’s earlier legal troubles very briefly. Clearly as an informed, intelligent biographer he would have know the true history.
I'm not an ex mormon....this lady is great. She seems to have this kind way about her and a great sense of humor, on top of knowing so much!
Back in the day, before the internet was big, I used to mail order the information they compiled. They sure are great people.
Gifted storytellers!
I remember the ark Hofmann Salamander letter fiasco and the bombings. We talked about it in Seminary. I was actually relieved that they found that Hofmann was a professional forger, but Ipit was at that point at age 17 i started questioning my faith because the prophet Spencer W. Kimball was dumped.
Throughout my life as Mormon, I was fed the idea that apostates were drunks, drug abusers, had a bone to pick with the Church, angry and had horns. Then soon after I met Sandra Tanner on Facebook. Shes now my favourite apostate!
I don't know about non-Mormon atheists, but like me, ex-Mormon atheists I know about, love Sandra Tanner, even though Sandra is a Christian.
In the late 90s, Sandra was instrumental in helping me become an ex-Mormon Christian. Her stories of Hofmann helped me realize Mormonism is based on "shadow" and not "reality."
It took me about 6 months to become ex-Mormon. After all, I had to read D. Michael Quinn's three huge books, Sandra and Jerald's info, etc. over about a year's time.
Strangely, I was just learning how to use the Internet Netscape browser, and I typed in words I knew, like "Mormon" and "Joseph Smith." I was shocked how much information about Mormonism there was on the Internet, even in the late 90s.
I thought it was all lies from the Devil. But my cognitive dissonance made me wonder why so much truthful information about Mormonism was on the Internet but that I once thought were lies by ex-Mormons was actually true. For some reason, I decided to verify the best I could that "false" information on the Internet was "lies from the Devil." Later, I found most of the "lies" were actually true.
I just went one step further than my heroes and heroines like Sandra, and used the same type of reasoning that lead me out of Mormonism (I was brainwashed into Mormonism from birth in the mid 1950s).
I saw the "crazy stuff" in the Bible, such as talking donkeys, Lot's wife turning to salt, Jesus walking on water, slavery in the Old Testament, a worldwide flood, the genocide of the Amalekites, and so forth. Some of it was "just crazy," but I also became an apatheist, because I didn't care if the God of the Bible is real. I couldn't worship such a being, or "moral monster" as Richard Dawkins calls Jehovah/Jesus.
As I recall Turley’s strawman argument was that we can’t expect the prophet to go around fighting crime when the real question is in regards to a prophets discernment to not allow himself and the church be the victims of fraud. Nobody suggested he should go around fighting crime.
The truly surprising aspect in retrospect, is that the church didn't have him killed very early on!!??
I think he ultimately would have had in his possession, (maybe real, maybe forgeries) papers to destroy the church, and ultimately blackmail them for tons and tons of money and major satisfaction.
Good liars are believed more than truth tellers. Seen it over and over! That is good work.
I just found out about a movie called Under the Banner of Heaven regarding a murder that took place among Mormon members. Will this ever be talked about on this site?
Yeah, Kimball's discernment didnt even work with a magnifying glass! LOL
I'm too cowardly to finally concede I don't believe in God, I will always respect anyone's beliefs - as long as they don't dismiss science at the same time.
Unfortunately the bias against "Amateurs" is a real thing within academia. Yet so much of the foundational research is by amateurs. Also sponsored Chairs within departments have to be suspect too especially when the major donor has a vested interests.
You should watch the new movie The Dig on Netflix. A trained amateur dissed while finding actual (non-forged!) historical Anglo-Saxon artifacts.
went and googled the Anthon Transcript, and I gotta say, it looks like the kind of thing middle school kids come up with to write in code to their friends
I 💕 Sandra Tanner
When I was in my research phase I found a 240 CE reading of gnostic teachings on the creation story. It had Sophia the creator talking to mankind. It actually said "Adam awake and arise." Then asks him about names and Adam says, " I will call her Eve for she is the mother of all living."
I looked for it in my belongings but to no avail. If interested I found it looking up gnostic teachings. There wasn't a doctrine Smith felt shy from borrowing.
Ok now I’m 2 degrees away from being at the same weddings as Dr. John Dehlin.
😁
Part 1 ✔... onto Part 2
Great work and persistence to uncover Sandra and her husband. Hoffman new who to drag in, he would have known!
There a sucker everyday. We even find we have fooled ourselves! 💖
What is her website again? I don’t want to have to rewind trying to find where she mentions it.
In authenticating all the documents, did anyone consider to doing paper or ink testing, to help determine the age of the paper the text was written on... in authenticating art works, this procedure is well known, pigments, etc., that were used in the 1830s, etc...
Risk taking was the charge that it gave. Still trying to make sense of crazy, your cracking me up! And it is incredible sad, and awful. Nice people, this is over our heads. Bottom line he was playing, and he new how to play them. He was close to no one really. He liked himself.
My mom is Cluster B and a convert and I think the church attracts, creates AND enables them.
Edit: I know there’s a lot of stigma around BPD. I’m talking about people who aren’t trying to stop and using the church as a crutch or excuse
He had a lot of fun with people’s gossip and playing it out. He had a blast. The Brethren are silly, as you know apology doesn’t exist. If you make money out of lies, people don’t question.
Mark was even more deceitful since modern ways of verifying documents is much more accurate and he could even dupe the experts.
Jerald sounds like he was a wonderful man. No surprise since he married lovely Sandra. ❤️❤️
That entire situation was a total disgrace I followed it all along and I was amazed I was living in California at the time
Talk about things forgotten. There’s a creek in my area that was poisoned by a golf course a few years ago and thousands of fish died. It me that’s big news but apparently for the rest of the Pittsburgh area it wasn’t. Later that train wrecked in East Palestine which was big news but now is gradually being forgotten. Yes, I’m off topic but I’m jealous of anything that gets attention though it must be said that the massive issues of Mormonism were ignored for decades. Perhaps environmental issues might get more publicity but it’s not nearly as juicy.
Gerald was a good researcher!
An extraordinary woman
@2:39:25 it sounds like someone snored. Someone fell asleep? Ha! At first, it spooked me cus I thought I was hearing something scary.
About Mark not having empathy...I remember his wife mentioning in that she wasn’t allowed in a locked room of their house. I find that strange. Would an empathetic caring person really be so deceptive to his own family. To me, a locked room in a house is a ‘red flag’ for an unhealthy marriage. Do they really have a good marriage? When you said his wife loved him, I’m interested to learn more about their marriage. I’m hope she’s gotten lots of counseling. I wonder if his good behavior, bad handwriting, etc we’re all an act. If he believed Mormonism is fraudulent, could he have just decided to play the game with them. As you said, beating them at their own game. He joined the circus.
My nephew was working for a person that is related to one of the Apostoles, he got a contract with the church to design a village in Africa, my nephew found out when was helping to do the program, from the money that he received he was stealing money to build his house.Thaat mean that the people of Africa will receive less help.
He was using people of the church that didn't have immigration status right so, they couldn't tell the church.
Sad that my nephew die 5 years ago, but i didn't ask him for writing report
Does ken jennings family go back far into the churchs history?
LOL! The Pecks! My grandmas family